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The Independence Podcast helps everyday people discover that true freedom isn’t found in self-reliance but in total dependence on Jesus Christ. Each episode blends honest conversation, biblical truth, and practical application to help listeners move beyond emotional devotion toward consistent, daily surrender. Whether you’re new in your faith or longing to grow deeper, you’ll find encouragement to trust God fully, live from His grace, and follow Christ with courage in a world that celebrates independence but neglects dependence on the One who truly sets us free.
Bryan Dunham (00:01)
We've been taught this story since we were kids. The bad guy does something bad. The good guy hits back. And when the bad guy gets what's coming to him, we cheer. It's Popeye and Bluetooth in their fight over olive oil. It's the Roadrunner and Wiley Coyote. It's John Wick. Superhero movies. It's the same story over and over again. Evil is defeated by giving evil.
A taste of its own medicine. But what if that's a lie? What if violence doesn't actually redeem? And what if Jesus walked into that entire way of thinking and said, Stop living like this? Welcome to episode 35 of the Independence Podcast, where we're learning how to live in.
Dependence on God. I am your host, Brian Dunham, and today we continue in the series Bound for Freedom, in which we're going through the Sermon on the Mount verse by first. Because if we're actually going to attempt to follow Jesus and live the way he taught, then we need to know what he said. And the Sermon on the Mount is the longest continuous teaching of Jesus we have in the Bible, and therefore is essentially our Christianity 101 course.
Today we're picking up in the Sermon on the Mount with Matthew chapter five, verses thirty-eight through forty-two. So let me read those verses as we get rolling. Again, this is Jesus speaking. You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, turn.
Let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. Okay, so let's think about how early we learned this story. We probably didn't even have a name for it. We certainly didn't have a theological category for it, but we learned it.
Here in America, I feel like I've been marinating in this story since I was a kid. Some of us, me in particular, I I loved Popeye. Popeye is a good example of this story. Popeye loves olive oil. Bluetooth comes along, causes trouble, mistreats olive, and what does Popeye do? Gets angry, rolls up his sleeves.
He eats his spinach, and then he beats the living daylights out of Pluto. And we cheer. Because in the world of Popeye, that's how justice works. The bad guy does something bad, the good guy responds with violence. The good guy's violence is bigger, stronger, more justified than the bad guy's violence. And when the bad guy finally gets what he deserves, It was awesome. Or maybe you grew up with
The Roadrunner and Wiley Coyote. So Wiley Coyote is constantly trying to destroy the Roadrunner. Sets traps, he builds machines, he drops anvils, he launches himself through the desert with explosives. And almost every time his own violence comes back on him. And we laugh. Because once again, there's a very simple moral universe. There's a good guy, there's a bad guy. The bad guy is trying to hurt the good guy. And somehow, some way,
The bad guy's gonna get what he deserves. And we grew up. And the cartoons changed, but the story didn't. Now it's John Wick. Someone kills his dog, and John Wick proceeds to systematically destroy everyone responsible. It's the movie Taken. Someone takes Liam Neeson's daughter and he hunts them down and does real damage to them. It's the equalizer, it's diehard, it's gladiator, it's
Any superhero movie you want to name. And I'm not saying these movies are bad movies. I'm saying something much more interesting than that. I'm saying we love the story. We understand it instinctively. Someone does evil, someone has to stop them. And the way you stop evil is by becoming stronger than the person doing it. You defeat violence with greater violence. You defeat evil with greater.
By destroying the evil person. You make things right by making the bad guy pay. And we don't just see this in cartoons and movies. We see it in the real world. You bomb us, we bomb you. You attack us, we attack you harder. You humiliate me, I'll humiliate you. You hurt me, I'll make you hurt worse. You betray me, I'll make sure you regret it. And sometimes
We don't even call it revenge, we call it justice. Sometimes we don't call it retaliation, we call it defending ourselves.
I wrote a about this a little bit in my book, Questions God Asks, but do you remember nine eleven? For those of you that are old enough to to remember that day. I I remember when I was a kid, I remember my parents talking to their friends. We'd be at a dinner party or something, and I would hear my parents talk about where they were when they heard that JFK had been assassinated. And everybody in the room, every adult would seem to have a story about that. yes, I know exactly what I was doing. And I remember as a kid
You know, I'm not I'm somewhere between nine and twelve years old probably at this point. And I would just think, I don't know that I necessarily believed the adults that they remembered exactly where they were on that day and time. just felt like everybody had a story because they all wanted to be a part of that story. But now I know that that isn't true, that that I was wrong because when nine eleven happened, when I first heard the news about what was going on, I can tell you exactly where I was.
exactly what I was doing, exactly what I was listening to on the radio. And that moment is you know, imprinted in my mind. And I don't think I'll ever forget it. And and anybody that is old enough to remember the significance of that day, I think is the same. They can tell you exactly where they were when they first heard that news. And I I can still, as I think about it, can still remember the emotions, that the sadness, the confusion, the bewilderment.
w that ultimately turned into anger. it was such a a strange, awful time to be alive and to remember what was going on and just the hurt and the anger I associate deeply with that. And you know, I don't know if you if you know the if you know this, but the USS New York is an amphibious transport for Marines and equipment and stuff to to battles.
That ship was created with seven and a half tons of steel that actually came from the Twin Towers. it was metal that they took and melted down and used it to create this warship. And on the front of the USS New York, on the emblem, it has the twin towers in the background and it has the words never forget on it. And as as those, you know
As that stirs up patriotic feelings inside of me and some American pride, right? When I hear that, at the same time, wow, what a metaphor for how we often operate in the world when we have been hurt. We get hurt, we internalize that pain, and then we weaponize it and we stamp it never forget.
Never forget they said that to you. Never forget they did that to you. And we turn it into a weapon that ultimately winds up hurting other people. And during this time period, like boy, this idea of violence will overcome the violence done to us was strong. There was a song that was written by Toby Keith during this time period.
It's it's called Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue, The Angry American. And I'm gonna read some of the lyrics here. And again, man, this song even still stirs up patriotic feelings in me, but I want you to pay attention to the lyrics when it comes to this idea of my response, my stronger response than what you did to us is going to redeem this situation or or make it better somehow or fix it. So
This is a couple of stanzas in and again the lyrics here. Now this nation that I love has fallen under attack. A mighty sucker punch came flying in from somewhere in the back. Soon as we could see clearly through our big black eye, man, we lit up your world like the fourth of July. Hey, Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list, and the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly, man, it's gonna be hell when you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell, and it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you. brought to you courtesy of the red, white, and blue. and justice will be served, and the battle will rage, this big dog will fight when you rattle his cage, and you'll be sorry that you messed.
With the US of A, because we'll put a boot in your ass. It's the American way. And I don't know about you, but like when you hear those lyrics, isn't there something inside you that goes, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Don't you mess with us, bro. We will hit you hard and harder we'll destroy you. Isn't there something inside you that feels that way? I I think sometimes we don't even recognize how how this is cooked into our DNA, kind of hardwired into who we are.
And we've been maintaining that story for so long. It feels like common sense. It feels like, yeah, that's right. That's what you should do. There's a theologian named Walter Wink who who gave this way of thinking a name, and it's referred to as the myth of redemptive violence. The myth is the belief that violence or or even the threat of violence has the power to finally set things right, that somehow
Evil can be defeated by giving evil enough of what it deserves. And here's the problem: it doesn't just live in movies or between nations. It lives right where you and I are, in our politics, in our families. It lives in our marriages. It lives in our churches, lives in us, in me. Because once I believe the way to defeat evil is to return evil for evil, I've entered a cycle. You hurt me.
I hurt you. You hurt me again. I hurt you worse. And I I I recall being in arguments with my spouse, and you know, she might say something that was painful to me or hurtful to me. And it was almost like in my mind a window would open up and there would be a shelf of all of the hurtful things that I could say laid out in front of me.
And I would reach out and grab one and bam, you know, throw it like a bomb on the ground. And the point behind it wasn't to do anything other than hurt. You hurt me, I'm gonna hurt you by saying this. Now a lot of us wouldn't necessarily admit to that. Like that my point was to hurt. It was, well, yeah, but you you you were saying these things and and and that may be true, but I'm gonna say but but this thing is also true. Like the really the core of it is you hurt me, I'm gonna hurt you. And if I can.
I might hurt you worse. I might grab that bigger bomb off the shelf and throw it into the room. and when that cyc when you enter this cycle as it perpetuates itself, you know, eventually you can be in a conflict and not even remember how it began. But everybody knows they're justified. Everybody believes themselves to be justified. And and that's when we arrive at one of the most radical statements Jesus ever made here in Matthew chapter five, verse thirty-eight.
You have heard that it was said eye for eye and tooth for tooth.
so now let's stop right here because if you've been listening to this series, you already know what Jesus is going to say next. But I tell you. Jesus frequently quotes an old testament verse or an idea and then says, But I tell you, in effect, reinterpreting what they already thought to be true. And he does that here as well. You've heard that it was said eye for eye and tooth for tooth, but I tell you.
And what comes next sounds almost impossible to the hearers for sure, because Jesus is going to tell them not to retaliate, to turn the other cheek, to give more than what is demanded, to go the second mile, to give to anyone who asks of them. And then this is a kind of a preview into next week, as if he didn't go far enough. He says, Love your enemies. But we'll save that for next week. So
What is Jesus doing here? Let's look at it again. Matthew 5:38. You've heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth.
So Jesus is quoting the Old Testament here. This principle appears in several Old Testament verses Exodus 21 24, Leviticus 24, 20, and Deuteronomy 19 21. I'm going to read the Leviticus passage,
I'm going to start in verse 19. If anyone injures his neighbor, as he has done it, shall be done to him. Fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, whatever injury he has given, a person shall be given to him. And then Jesus says, But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. So at first glance.
Doesn't this sound like a direct contradiction of what something that is clearly laid out in scripture here? Like, doesn't Jesus sound like he is completely contradicting this idea of eye for eye and tooth for tooth? And Jesus says, Yeah, but I tell you, don't resist the one who is evil.
So what's happening? Is Jesus rejecting the Old Testament? I don't think so. I I an understanding of the original purpose of the law of retaliation, Lex Talionis, helps us to see what Jesus is doing. So we often hear an eye for an eye and think, okay, the Bible's commanding revenge here, but historically, this principle actually limited revenge.
That's the proper perspective in which to see this eye for an eye principle. The law said that punishment had to be proportional to the offense. You take my eye.
I don't get to take your eye, your hand, your house, and your firstborn son. I get an equivalent penalty. Or you get an equivalent, you get an equivalent penalty. The principle here actually restrained the escalating cycle of vengeance. And you can see it if you look at, like in Genesis 4, Lamech says, I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me. If Cain is avenged seven times.
Than Lamech 77 times. Lamech is basically saying, Hey, you guys don't come after me, because if you do, I will overwhelm you with my own violence. It's escalating violence. You hurt me once, I'll hurt you 10 times worse. But the law of retaliation, or Lex Talionas, says, nope, the response must not exceed the offense. So an eye for an eye is a restraint.
Upon human vengeance in the Old Testament. But Jesus takes this issue even further. Jesus moves from limiting retaliation to actually talking about how you overcome this situation. And that's where Matthew 5 becomes revolutionary. He's not simply saying the Old Testament was wrong, he's saying the kingdom of God calls my disciples beyond the logic of retaliation altogether.
The progression might look like this. So natural human response is you hurt me, I hurt you worse. The mosaic limitation is you hurt me, justice must always be proportional. Jesus' kingdom ethic, you hurt me, I refuse to let your evil determine my response. That is enormous. Jesus is attacking the entire cycle of violence to retaliation.
To counter retaliation, to escalation, to more violence. The myth of redemptive violence again says the way to defeat evil is to return evil with enough force. Jesus says the way that you respond to evil matters. But what is like, do not resist an evil person? Like, what does that mean? Does that mean we should just be passive and let people walk over us?
The Greek is important here. It is May Antes.
Me antistani toponero, which literally means do not resist the evil person or evil one.
The verb antistemi. The verb antistemi means to stand against, oppose, or resist. But we have to interpret this in context because Jesus is not teaching the Christians should never oppose evil in any sense. The New Testament itself says things like resist the devil, that's in James, or or resist him, standing firm in the faith, that's in First Peter. So Jesus
Cannot mean never resist anything evil under any circumstance. The context is specifically about what? It's about personal retaliation. In other words, do not respond to evil on its own terms. Do not meet violence and humiliation with retaliatory violence and humiliation. Jesus is dismantling the instinct that says, You did this to me, therefore I have the right.
To do it back. The four examples that Jesus lists here are all about just refusing the cycle. So turning the other cheek. Right? So if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn them the other cheek also. This is often misunderstood as passive submission. But notice something interesting. Jesus speaks specifically about the right cheek. So for a right-handed person facing someone, striking the other person's right cheek ordinarily suggests a backhanded blow.
And that matters because a backhanded slap is not simply a physical assault, it's actually an an insult.
So Jesus may be describing something like this someone insults you, someone humiliates you, someone attacks you physically or attacks your dignity. Their natural response is hit him back or humiliate him worse. And Jesus says, turn the other cheek. That does not necessarily mean let people do whatever they want. It means I refuse to allow your violence or humiliation to turn me into a violent and retaliatory person.
It's not weakness. That is freedom. The person who must retaliate is actually controlled by the person who offended him. If you feel like you have to retaliate, you're allowing their actions to determine what you do. And Jesus says, you don't have to give them that power. You can walk in a greater freedom. And then if anyone wants to sue you and take your tunic, hand over.
Your cloak as well. Again, Jesus pushes here beyond just strict justice. The law could regulate property disputes. But Jesus says, What if you refuse to let possessions become the thing that controls you? Someone wants your tunic? Give them your coat too. The world says, fight for every inch, get what's yours. And Jesus says, You're not owned by what you own.
This is just simply another attack on the myth of redemptive violence. The myth says, you must defeat the person trying to take from you. Jesus says, My security does not ultimately depend on winning this conflict. And then he says, if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Certainly, this is referring to what was a Roman imperial practice. A Roman soldier could compel a Jewish person to carry a load for.
For a prescribed distance. So, you know, imagine this. You're, you're, if you're a Jewish Hebrew here, you're you're you're an occupied nation. You're being oppressed by this foreign nation who's extorting you for taxes. And you're an occupied people. And a soldier comes by and here and says, Carry my stuff, and forces you to carry his things for a mile. And everything inside you is gonna say,
I hate you, I hate this. The myth of redemptive violence says the only answer to this kind of oppression is to overpower the oppressor. But Jesus says he's gonna force you to go one mile, actually go two.
And that would have been eye-popping, ear popping for the folks listening to this. But it's not surrendering your humanity. If you consider it, it's actually a radical refusal to be psychologically controlled by the oppressor. If the soldier can force you to walk one mile and no more, but what happens if you voluntarily walk the second?
The soldier no longer controls the meaning of your actions. You've transformed a coerced act into a voluntary one. Jesus is teaching the disciples, and you and I, you can take an action intended to demean you and refuse to allow it to define you. Jesus here is really offering a third way to live.
We often think there's really kind of two responses in situations that present us with some type of evil. Either fight, hit back, retaliate, attack the enemy, or flight, right? Fight or flight. Flight would be submit, run away, become passive. But Jesus offers something different, which is creative, courageous.
Non-retaliatory resistance. Jesus is not teaching passivity here. He's teaching a different kind of strength. The myth of redemptive violence says the powerful person is the one who can inflict the most damage. But Jesus says the truly powerful person is the one who cannot be compelled to become evil in response to evil. That is a completely different kind of power.
And Jesus himself embodies this. It's not something he just teaches, it's something he lives. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter takes out his sword because here come the soldiers, and the enemy has shown up. There is a bad guy, and the solution is obvious. It's time to fight. It's time to fight back. So Peter strikes the servant of the high priest, and Jesus stops him. Puts your sword back in its place. And then Jesus goes to the cross.
Think about that. The cross is the ultimate collision between the world's way, which is destroy your enemies, and Jesus' way, which is give yourself to save your enemies. The world says, someone has to die and it won't be me. Jesus says, I'll lay down my life. The myth of redemptive violence says, violence saves.
The gospel says self-giving love saves. That distinction is enormous. And you know the real irony here? And maybe the deepest connection is the cross exposes the myth of redemptive violence. The people who crucified Jesus likely believed that they were solving a problem. Jesus was disruptive. He threatened the religious order.
He threatened Rome's stability. So the solution? Remove him. Kill the problem. That is the myth of redemptive violence. Peace will come if we eliminate the troublemaker. But the resurrection reveals something astonishing. God does not redeem the world through violence. He redeems the world through Jesus' willing, self-giving love in the face of violence.
And when the resurrected Jesus appears, he doesn't come looking for revenge. He's not like, now it's my turn. Instead, his message was, What? Peace be with you. The resurrected victim does not become the next executioner. And that is the gospel's rejection of the myth of redemptive violence.
So is Jesus contradicting an eye for an eye? In one sense, yes. Jesus says, you've heard that it was said, and then, but I tell you, he's unquestionably giving his authoritative interpretation and fulfillment of the law, but I would be careful about saying he's saying the Old Testament is wrong. I would frame it this way the Old Testament law restrained vengeance. Jesus confronts the deeper desire for vengeance.
law says, do not retaliate excessively. Jesus says, my disciples must confront the very instinct to retaliate. The law itself regulates the consequences of violence. Jesus goes after the heart that wants revenge. And that fits perfectly within the larger Sermon on the Mount. Remember the progression earlier on. You've heard that it was said, do not murder.
But Jesus says, deal with the anger and contempt that is in your heart. And then Jesus says, You've heard that said, don't commit adultery. And he says, But I'm telling you, deal with the lust that is within you. And Matthew 5, 31 through 32, not merely follow the legal procedure for divorce, but take seriously what divorce does to the covenant and to people. And then last week, not
Merely keep your oaths technically, but become the kind of person whose word can be trusted, and now not merely make your retaliation proportional, but become the kind of person who does not need revenge. That is the pattern. Jesus consistently moves from external regulation to internal transformation.
I think this could be the central thesis of this whole argument. The kingdom of God does not overcome evil by teaching us how to become better at retaliation. It overcomes evil by refusing to let evil itself reproduce through us.
He is confronting something that has been embedded in humanity from the very beginning that our retaliation can redeem. And Jesus' message is simply this someone has to stop the cycle. Someone has to absorb the blow without returning it. Someone has to refuse to pass the evil along.
Someone has to take the violence out of circulation and say, What you did to me does not determine what I will do to you. And Jesus isn't merely going to teach that, he's going to show us. Because Matthew 5 ultimately leads to a hill called Golgotha, where Jesus Himself stands in the middle of human violence and refuses to give it back.
If you found this episode helpful, please share with a friend and follow the show. And until next week, grace and peace, my friends.