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Hosted by SRPMIC Assistant Community Manager, Lena Jackson-Eckert, this podcast takes a closer look at the programs, services, and people that help shape our Community. From everyday resources to unique stories and conversations, we’re here to share what matters. So let’s go ahead and zoom in.
Before we begin, we want to let listeners know that this episode discusses a culturally sensitive topic involving our ancestors. Some parts of this conversation may be emotional or even difficult to hear, So we encourage you to listen with care. Hey, welcome to Lena's Lens. I'm Lena Jackson Eckert, one of the assistant community managers with the Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community. From helpful resources to unique conversations, we're on a journey to to explore our community.
Lena:So let's go ahead and zoom in. Welcome back to Lena's Lens. This is part two of our special series about the journey to Scotland, a trip for one purpose, repatriation, the process of returning ancestors and cultural items back to their place of origin. If you haven't listened to part one yet, I encourage you to go back and hear it. It will give you the foundation for today's conversation.
Lena:In this episode, you'll hear from two council members who were also part of the delegation that traveled overseas to escort our ancestors' home. They'll share what it meant to represent the community on an international level, how this effort came together, and the leadership responsibilities involved in a historic repatriation like this one. Let's get into the discussion. Thank you for joining us today. Why don't each of you state your name so everyone knows who we're talking to?
Jacob:How y'all doing? My name is Jacob Butler. I'm a council member and district one representative.
Mikah:Skeg Tash, Anand Abchig, Mikah Carlos, council member for District 1.
Lena:Let's jump right in. I know recently you all went on a trip abroad to Scotland. What was the primary purpose of this trip?
Mikah:So the council was approached earlier in this year about a opportunity that our culture resources department had to repatriate some items from the University of Edinburgh and Museum of Scotland. And so they approached council and invited us as this was the first opportunity that we've had to do in an international repatriation. And so they invited us as dignitaries but also to see the work that they're doing. And there were some concerns about the, I guess, political and making sure that all of the international kind of agreements would be honored.
Lena:Okay.
Lena:So how were you all selected? I mean, was it just kind of like you guys talked about it amongst yourselves at council and whoever had the free time? Or were there some specific reasons why you decided to go?
Jacob:Well, originally, this had been discussed for a couple years now. So originally, the TIPWA office, Tribal Historic Preservation Office, had reached out to me and asked if I'd be willing to to attend this this trip. But as they got into the weeds of everything and and started understanding that there was certain cultural protocols and and gender roles that were gonna be observed, it was decided that it would be more appropriate for the vice president to go. So originally, was the vice president that was scheduled to go and accompany the THPO office to do this repatriation. However, there's no funding for international repatriation.
Jacob:There's funding for national repatriation efforts, and even that's lacking.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:But for this, none of that funding would have been able to be used. And so the Cultural Resource Department had to come to council to ask to support this. And at that time, the vice president was still gonna go, but they offered the opportunity for any council member to attend. And they actually didn't just offer the opportunity. They they requested council's attendance.
Jacob:The reason why, just like councilwoman Carlos or Mikah just said, is this is the first time for an O'odham community to do international repatriation. This is the second time in the history of repatriation that a foreign entity has engaged in repatriating remains back to a tribal community within The United States. So this is a very historic occasion. And the office had realized that this is something that is so important that they wanted to show the value that we have in the return of our ancestors by having our representatives there.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And so they asked for as many representatives to come as possible to show not just the people that we're gonna be engaging with, this time, that we value and and very much support the actions of our staff to to bring home our ancestors, to do right by our loved ones
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:No matter how far removed we are, that all of our leadership would show up. And so they had also told us that, Gila River was considering going and other, members of the Four Sister Tribes Ak-Chin Tohono O'odham were still considering going. And that they wanted as many represent representatives of, communities to to be there.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And so it was offered to all of council. And I believe, councilwoman Carlos and councilwoman Fulwilder asked to be a part of it. And afterwards, I I said, you know, if there's an opportunity, I would like to go as well. But everybody was given the same option.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And I think, you know, schedules, other responsibilities, for a whole diverse range of reasons, others chose not to.
Lena:Yeah. So earlier you mentioned about the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. So part of that act, there's money that is available for tribes to get artifacts within The United States. But what you're saying is that they don't allow or they don't provide you funding if you need to go out of the country.
Jacob:NAGPRA only applies to The United States. It's a law that governs our remains, the remains of our ancestors, and items of cultural patrimony, sacred objects.
Mikah:Funerary.
Jacob:Funerary objects, and what is the other one? Cultural I think it's cultural objects.
Jacob:Mhmm. So there's it's not a 100% blanket across the board. You can return everything. They have to fit it within a certain criteria. But primary reason is to return our loved ones and the the items that they were buried with home.
Jacob:And then there's other caveats like items of cultural patrimony are specific cultural items and
Lena:They were used for, like, ceremonies.
Jacob:Yeah. So, like, you call them artifacts. Right? So those items of cultural patrimony belong to the entirety of the people.
Jacob:So those are vital to the continuance or resurgence of, traditional cultural practice.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And so if they identify those items, those can be returned. But you can't put a law on international collections just because we want it that way.
Lena:So they technically didn't have to return these items to us, right? They chose to because do we know why? I mean, were you guys able to have a conversation with them?
Mikah:I think from my understanding, the way that this even came about So again, you asked about how do we even have this opportunity? From my understanding, decades ago when NAGPRA was first enacted, they kind of sent out letters to all of these organizations, including international organizations, and asked, Hey, can you look through your collections? Is there anything that might have come from an O'odham tribe that might have come from our If you're open to it, can we come review it? And if you're even further open to it, is it something that you would be willing to repatriate? So from my understanding, those were sent out and the University of Edinburgh was the only one that responded and said, we might have something.
Mikah:And the conversation, I mean, was like twenty years ago and the conversation kind of just dropped. Then years ago, they said, or a couple years ago, this conversation kind of picked back up. They said, hey, we were in communication with you at one point, nothing ever came of it. Is this still something you're interested in? And so then the arrangement started to happen and they had help from an international organization or an organization that helps with international.
Mikah:But so it's it was one of those things that's just kind of like, well, that's they just said, hey, we're doing this because it's right.
Jacob:Yeah. It was the Association on American Indian Affairs that, I guess, started this process. And they had helped the Muskogee tribe do the first repatriation. And, you know, Mikah's correct. Since NAGPRA first started, there's been letters written all over the world.
Lena:It's kinda standard.
Jacob:Yeah. Asking asking for remains or just inventories of collections to say, do you have any of our ancestors there? Can we bring them home? And when I started sure, it's been, like, twenty six years since I I started with with our office here. I recall former staff saying, you know, we've written letters.
Jacob:These letters have gone out. Most of the times, we don't get a response. And when we do, a lot of times they say that we have no responsibility to give you back our our items and that this is our property. And so they they would actually say that our ancestors were their property, and that they were there were these these items to be collected rather than the remains of our ancestors. And so, you know, for me, that was really an awesome moment to know that this international entity said, no.
Jacob:We're gonna we're gonna do right.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:We're gonna do right by the people. We're gonna do right by the descendants of these people and and make sure that they get home. Yeah. And to be fair, Edinburgh University has done repatriations internationally as well to other indigenous communities. I believe there's a tribe in Japan that they had done a repatriation prior to the repatriation to the Muskogee.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:For us, it was it was cool to to be a part of this. But, really, this is so different than how things usually happen. So in my experience, these museums and entities oftentimes don't wanna give back remains. They don't wanna give items of cultural patrimony or what they consider collections back to us.
Jacob:And there was actually a law that said, you know, you can identify these items, not the remains, but the items of cultural patrimony, the funerary objects, the sacred items. You can identify them. And by law, we are required to give them back to you. But if your facility that you're gonna bring them home to isn't up to par to the standards that we expect them to be cared for
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:Then we don't have to give them back to you.
Lena:Is that still the case now?
Jacob:That's still the case today. But we have a repository in our community that oftentimes is is leaps and bounds better than what, condition they're being stored in today. And so that argument is not as relevant as it once was for our community.
Lena:Right. Maybe some other tribes, they could use that argument.
Jacob:So they can still use that argument today. But it's often, contentious. It's often something that's being done because you have to because there's a law Yeah. That's forcing you And so it was interesting, you know, for us, we wanna be respectful of of our practices. Right?
Jacob:And so we had asked, are we gonna bring anything to say thank you? Are we gonna bring anything, like a gift?
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And I think because our staff have worked in this field within The United States for a long time, they're like, why would we bring a gift
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:To trade for our ancestors? And here in the The United States, I would say totally, that's the law. You're required and you're bound to do that. But internationally, it's different. We're
Lena:Well, they're doing something they don't have to do.
Mikah:We're at their mercy. Yeah.
Jacob:To me, just being the people that we are, I thought I was like, well, it's appropriate. You know? Like, because because we're beholden to their will. Right? If they didn't wanna do it, then we didn't Right.
Jacob:They wouldn't have to. And to bring our ancestors home and to do it in a good way Mhmm. And and really that's what I look at is is we can do whatever we want, however we want to do it. But how do we do it in a good way?
Lena:Right.
Jacob:So that one of the things that I was always told when you're working in these, in these realms is to do it in a good way, to have a good feeling about you, to have a good spirit about you. Yeah. Because your ancestors know that. They feel that. And that if you're having any kind of bad thoughts or you're having a bad day, not to be a part of these things.
Jacob:And so to go into this with that mindset. Open heart. Yep. And so it was a cool thing. And and and I think if international repatriation is something that's gonna be, supported further, that's how we have to look at it is let's build these relationships.
Jacob:Yeah. Let's build these relationships, in a good way that people feel compelled to do the right thing. And that's the biggest reason they ask counsel to go, is to show that this And is
Lena:it's important to you. Yeah, that makes sense. And it sounds like you said that in The United States, sometimes that relationship is contentious. So it sounds like you had a totally different experience over there, and so it makes sense to show your appreciation for something that they didn't have to do. Can you guys tell us a little bit about what kind of items were you able to bring home?
Jacob:Well, I think our primary goal and responsibility was to escort our ancestors home.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:To treat them with the respect and dignity that they they deserve. You know? And that's something that I think it's it's important for our own community to to understand. Whether they passed today or a thousand years ago, they're still our relatives. Right?
Jacob:And the same respect and and reverence that we have when our loved one passes today, we wanna offer and afford that to the people that we owe for being here today.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:If it wasn't for our ancestors living all those years ago doing the things that they did, we wouldn't be here. Yeah. And so that was our main goal, to bring them home in a good way, to escort them and make sure that they were unmolested or mistreated by customs or TSA and that they got home safely. And then we also had the opportunity to look at items of cultural patrimony to identify things that may have belonged to our community that may be considered sacred, or vital to return of a traditional practice. And so those are some of the things that they looked at were, I believe, some baskets and ceramics and a few other things.
Lena:So were you able to bring those home too?
Jacob:I think those require a larger discussion.
Lena:Okay.
Jacob:And even in this process, there's still standards that you have to Mhmm. Meet. And so you have to kinda validate why you're saying these things are items of culture patrimony or why these things need to be returned, or these items that were buried with somebody. Mhmm. If there are items that were buried with somebody, it doesn't matter what they are.
Lena:They meant something to that person.
Jacob:Just like today, when you leave something in a casket, you don't ever to expect pull it out of that casket, right? And so those things have to be consulted on further.
Lena:So did you guys have to make any special arrangements, like through TSA customs? What did that look like?
Mikah:So I know our cultural resources staff, our NAGPRA and THPO office staff, they had to get a lot of clearances from the State Department. So working with you know, when you fly in domestically, you have to go through TSA, you know, when you're leaving, when you're coming. But, when you fly internationally, also have to go through customs. And so, that's a whole another checkpoint. And, for us, our concern was, as we bring our ancestors back, the level in which they want to, I guess, inspect things would violate our beliefs and our cultural practices.
Mikah:And so, working with the State Department, who we actually had a meeting with when we were at the university, we went the Consulate and just kind of talked about our experiences so far and how we would like to see these things happen moving forward because, again, this is only the second time this has happened for U. S. Tribes. And so, I know we had to go we coordinated through the State Department to essentially send a letter saying, We're unofficial business. We are a sovereign nation.
Mikah:We are elected officials of a sovereign nation. These are our delegates who are acting on behalf of a sovereign nation. They have the authority to do these things, and they're unofficial business. So, had to carry the letters, they had to go through the regular checkpoints and all that, but carrying the letters and coordinating through the State Department to say, This is official business of a sovereign nation.
Lena:So you guys didn't have too many issues, it sounds like.
Jacob:To be fair, though, that wasn't counsel's role. And so the work of the THPO office, they did all that work with the assistance of those other entities, and even our office of congressional affairs. So there was a lot of other key roles that that really helped make sure that this went off Mhmm. In a good way. Yeah.
Jacob:And so a lot of that has to be given to the staff and the work that they did for the last few years.
Lena:How did it feel to see those items all the way across the ocean so far away from their homeland?
Mikah:I think for myself, you know, it's kind of a mind trip, but just having gone through that journey and, you know, we have the modern means of transportation. So being able to take a flight, yes, it was two flights and I think we had like a fifteen, eighteen hour travel day. But being in this whole other place where you don't see anybody who looks like us, you don't hear anybody who speaks O'odham or Piipaash or even sounding like us, being in this place but seeing something that's so familiar to you. So, there's an opportunity to, you know, look at some baskets.
Lena:Mhmm.
Mikah:And seeing just how familiar like, I'm like, this looks like it could have been made today by one of our, you know, our basket makers. And so for me, I was it was really a struggle of, like, the awe of like what the journey that this basket has made. But also the, I guess kind of sadness because we also got to see like, where did this basket come from? How did it get here? And knowing so many times that there was opportunity for this basket to be repatriated back to the community.
Mikah:It came from The United States. It came from the state away. And instead of it coming back to our community, it made this whole journey overseas and to this other place that it's not familiar to. So for me, was very conflicted like feelings and it was just very interesting to see. I was like, just like, I want to take it home with me.
Mikah:Like, want to take it home and it belongs to me, it should be back with our people.
Lena:That's powerful. I would think it would be very emotional. And I could see how you probably wouldn't have any dry eyes around there. Can you guys talk a little bit about any special cultural protocols that you all did. I know I'm not asking you to go into any detail, but like I said, I feel like it seems like it would be a really emotional journey.
Lena:And however you believe, you might you know, want to say a little prayer or blessing or something like that. Can you talk about anything that you all did to accept those items back?
Jacob:We have a grassroots group that does our reburial, and then we have the repatriation process that's handled through the the THPO office or the Travel Historic Preservation Office. You know? And and there are traditional cultural protocols that that are conducted. But I also know that for as long as I've worked there and and even before, a lot of those things aren't shared as openly as as as this, I guess, venue would would support.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:So some of those things are are reserved for the time and the practice. Mhmm. But I will say this, that prior to going, we made sure that we were we were fanned off and we set our prayers, you know, and that things were done in a good way to to receive them in a good way.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And certain certain practices were done to make sure while we handled and escorted our ancestors home that we were protected as well.
Mikah:Personally, like, when we talk about doing this work, you also have to be in the right mindset. And I know that's something that, you know, Councilman Butler had mentioned before, by making sure you're in the right mindset. You know, if you're if you're grieving or if you have, like, heavy emotions, it's not something you want to be around. You want to be, you know, in a good place and having those emotions. Maybe not necessarily happy, but you want to kind of be calm and steady.
Mikah:So, think for ourselves, you know, when we talk about the protocols and the way that we, I guess, carry ourselves in those, and I'll speak for myself, but, you know, making sure that we're taking care of ourselves while we're there, too. Like, I know a lot of people I know some people might think that, you know, this was just a vacation for us, but it was really, it was work. And so from, you know, the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep, you're thinking about making sure that this goes off without a hitch. You know, as a council member, making sure that our staff have everything that they need, making sure that everybody's needs are taken care of. We were traveling with an elder from Gila River, making sure that she was okay.
Mikah:She was taken care of. She was eating. She was sleeping and just taking care of each other. But, you know, I think one of the other things that we maybe don't give enough credit to is just we had a lot of meals shared together and being able to do that. Then while, yes, we're having this very heavy kind of work being done, this very serious work being done in the moments where we're gathered together and we're kind of stepping away, we were able to laugh.
Mikah:Were and we were able to like joke around with each other and have that, you know, I would say like ceremony, community ceremony. Were able to kind of relax and just make sure check-in with each other and make sure we're all doing okay. And then when we needed to go back into the, to do the work, we were able to slip back into that, but it wasn't so heavy on us because we were taking those breaks and we were able to lean on each other and have that fun and joking with each other and just being able to have that community with us.
Lena:Well, and that also puts you in a good mindset to be able to do the work as well.
Jacob:Well, really, that's how we handle our our passions today. You know?
Lena:Mhmm. That's true.
Jacob:We put all of our effort into doing that work, to digging the grave, to cooking for the the diggers, all that process of of laying your loved one down in a good way. That afterwards when you're breaking bread together, everybody's laughing and telling stories and things like that. Right? And it's a good way to process . Your grief.
Jacob:And that definitely that you see correlations to that in the work that that our crew from Cultural Resources and what we're a part of this time are able to do. Mhmm. And it helps ground you in that work, but also take care of your mental health.
Lena:Yeah. Yeah, I love that comparison, because it's really Yeah, that's how we do it today. So, some final thoughts. What is one big takeaway that you all can tell our listeners about this effort and the trip?
Mikah:I think for myself, you know, the fact that we were even able to do this, and I really give credit to the leaders and the people who advocated beforehand, before us, you know, those that run council, those that led the THPO or NAGPRA offices and anybody who started this effort, even if it was decades ago, really have to give them credit for laying the groundwork to make this even possible. We talk about, you know, the resources not being available because this isn't covered technically by NAGPRA. And so I think about the decisions that were made by past councils or past leaders in the community to secure those resources that we can identify what's important to us. For us, you know, we know that culture is important to us. We know that our people are important to us, whether they're new babies or those that have passed on, those are still our people.
Mikah:And so being able to take care of them is something that those leaders had identified and that's something that we continue forward. And so that's what I think about. I think about, you know, how do we secure opportunities and resources to make sure that this continues on? And then making sure that, you know, as we move forward, generations after us are still able to do this work because that's the reality is that there's always going to be the need for this work to be done.
Lena:Right.
Mikah:And so that's what I think about. Like, how do we make sure that we, A, provide the resources, but B, we also pass down the importance, understanding of why we do this work. It's not just the obligation, but also the understanding of having that connection to the past and to, you know, at some point we're ancestors too. Right. And I would hope that somebody would advocate for me after I'm gone.
Lena:Yeah. If you end up in a museum and
Mikah:And I mean, put me in a museum. But yeah, I would hope that somebody would advocate for me and that the community would also dedicate those resources to making sure that I'm still here in in the homelands with my other my people.
Jacob:Yeah. And I think that's one of the biggest things that I wanna not that I took away, but I would like people listening to take away is, you know, did did this cost money? Yes. But everything that we have and everything we're afforded today are because of the people that came before us. You know, whether it was past leadership in in historic times or grandmas and grandpas from thousand years removed.
Jacob:Right?
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And to do right by them regardless, we have the ability to do that today. You know, a few years ago, we probably wouldn't have. Mhmm. But the very thing that we're afforded is because of them. Yeah.
Jacob:And so I just I appreciate that. And one of the things that I wanna leave the audience with is even though we're thousands of miles away from our community, there's a lot of similarities there. You know, we met with the people that their language and cultures were taken from them. They were outlawed. They were banned.
Jacob:A foreign culture was was placed upon them.
Lena:Mhmm.
Jacob:And they're even dealing with diabetes right now. A big influx of diabetes. And so there's a lot of similarities even in cultural norms.
Jacob:And I realize, you know, no matter where you go, there's a lot more similarities than differences. It's just those differences differences that divide us. And think in the work that we do, making these relationships in a good way will go a long way. Yep.
Lena:Well, thank you both for joining us today for this conversation and sharing your experience in Scotland. And for the listeners, I hope this discussion provided meaningful insight into the purpose of the trip. So we appreciate each of you for taking the time. There'll be another opportunity, actually, to hear about their experience during my upcoming summer speaker series on June 30. We're gonna have a panel of speakers, including Councilwoman Carlos and Councilman Butler.
Lena:I think you guys are even gonna provide some pictures. Hopefully you already have.
Jacob:I hope not.
Mikah:Appropriate pictures. Exactly.
Lena:And so you'll even get an opportunity to ask them questions if you have any. So mark the date on your calendar, June 30, and we hope to see you there. Doors open at five with dinner, and then the presentation will begin at six Thank you for listening to part two of this special series. Hearing from our council members gives us an important look at the leadership side of this journey, the planning, the responsibility, and the support needed to escort our ancestors home. This repatriation effort took staff, leadership, and many others working together to make sure everything was done in a good and respectful way.
Lena:Their experience reminds us how meaningful this work is and why it matters to our community. And most importantly, we want to acknowledge the relatives who were brought home. Welcome home. We hope they are at peace surrounded by the land and the people they were taken from. We hope these two episodes help you understand the purpose of this trip and the importance of escorting our ancestors back to their homeland.
Lena:You can read more about this trip in the May 21 issue of the O'odham Action News, and you can find the link in our show notes. Before we close, I want to share again that on June 30, I'll be hosting a session in my summer speaker series where you'll hear even more about this trip. Council leadership will be there to share photos, answer questions, and talk about their experience. Doors open at five for dinner, and the presentation begins at six in the council chambers. We hope to see you there.
Lena:Thank you for joining us for this special series of Lena's Lens, and we'll see you in the next episode.