Intro: Intro music.
Welcome to Talking History with
British Online Archives, the
podcast in which we explore the
past from a variety of angles
and perspectives. British Online
Archives is an academic
publisher and digital repository
of historical source material
based in the UK, and we work
closely with academics, museum
professionals, and heritage
organisations to curate primary
source collections for students
and researchers alike.
Throughout this podcast series,
we will talk to historians and
specialists working in related
fields about their research.
Together, we will delve into
some of the most significant
themes, events, and movements in
history.
Rex: I'm Rex Cleaver, Editorial
Assistant at BOA. For this
episode, I met up with Luke
Harris, Honorary Research Fellow
at the University of Birmingham.
Luke has written extensively
about the history of sport and
leisure, devoting attention to
the way in which these two
fields have impacted British
identity. Luke's PhD thesis
explored British Olympic
history. He has since developed
this into a book titled Britain
and the Olympic Games 1908–1920:
Perspectives on Participation
and Identity, published by
Palgrave Macmillan in 2015. In
addition to his teaching career,
Luke is passionate about the
sporting history of Birmingham
and the West Midlands, and he is
currently focusing his research
on the development of athletics
within Birmingham during the
early 20th century. I visited
Luke at his home in Essex back
in April to talk with him about
his research. Our conversation
covered many interesting topics,
from the first London Olympic
Games, held in 1908, to the
importance of class in relation
to sport and British identity.
We also discussed sporting
opportunities that were
available for women during the
first half of the 20th century.
It was a pleasure chatting with
Luke, and I hope you enjoy
listening.
Luke, hello.
Luke: Hi, how you doing?
Rex: I'm good, thanks. How are
you?
Luke: Yeah, really good. Thank
you.
Rex: Thanks for joining me today
on the podcast, and thanks for
letting us into your home to
record the episode.
Luke: Oh, you're really welcome.
Rex: I guess, to start with, I
just wanted to talk a bit about
your areas of research. You're
primarily interested in, sort
of, sporting history. How did
you, kind of, get into that
field of research?
Luke: I think I've always really
loved sport. And first of all,
like, I'd like to think of
myself as a sportsman. I play
golf, cricket, football. I've
watched all these sports. I love
to watch sports. You know, I did
a degree in history at
Aberystwyth University. And I
think when I was there, I
realised that there was this
possibility, this is a serious
academic field. I remember I did
a module about I think it was
sport, leisure, and popular
culture, and we had Dilwyn
Porter, who's one of the top
names in the field, he came in
and gave a guest lecture. I
think, I really realised that
this was a serious academic
field, and my interest kind of
grew from there I'd say. I
always loved history. My parents
are really, kind of, passionate
about it, and it combined two
loves in my life, really. And I
think it kind of stemmed from
there, and I realised through
dissertations at my
undergraduate level and Master's
level that there was a
possibility of doing this kind
of research. And then from that,
I was inspired to apply for a
PhD, and I was fortunate enough
to get something looking at
London's and Britain's Olympic
Games.
Rex: That's great, yeah. I mean
talking about the Olympic Games,
so a lot of your work kind of
focuses on sort of the late 19th
century, early 20th century, era
of Britain. Can you tell us a
bit about why that was a
particularly significant time in
British sporting history?
Luke: Yeah, it's, it's, it's the
start, it's the time when
everything begins, really. We
look at all the associations
that are formed around this
time. Obviously the
International Olympic Committee
is founded in 1894. And that's
quite late compared to a lot of
the British institutions, the FA
is formed in 1863, the RFU,
1871, the Amateur Athletics
Association, 1880. That's
obviously very significant for
my research. But there's also
the coverage as well. We see a
lot of the publications and
things that British Online
Archives have got as well.
They're actually starting at
this time, and we see a lot of
this specialised sports coverage
start to emerge. And that's
really fantastic for the
historian, and really, for
someone like me who uses
newspapers and magazines a lot,
this is, this is really
instrumental in my, in my work,
so they're a fantastic resource
to be able to rely on.
Rex: Yeah, I mean, you talk
about all these organisations
that are founded around this
time, I think you actually make
a claim in your book. I don't
know if it'd be, if other
historians would take you to
task on that, but you say
Britain can effectively claim to
be the founder of modern sport.
Can you kind of elaborate on
that?
Luke: Oh most definitely, it's
Britain who kind of standardises
modern sport, puts a number of
rules in place. We could talk
about the 1908 Olympics, and
Britain published a set of rules
for all of the sports that were
going to take place, to
standardise these things. So I
think Britain very much can
claim to be the home of modern
sport. There certainly are
sports that don't originate in
Britain, and that's an area that
the British don't like in some
areas, and it perhaps explains
why some sports aren't popular
in Britain compared to others.
But it's certainly Britain who
are behind the formulation of a
lot of our modern sports. I
mentioned football and rugby,
and cricket. These are, these
are very much sports of Britain.
Rex: And, I mean, just before
the Olympics, you've written
about the Much Wenlock games.
Could you just tell us a bit
about, about that story?
Luke: Yeah, so the, Much Wenlock
is a small town, I think, in
Shropshire, and here a man named
Dr. William Penny Brookes. He
was really interested and wanted
to look after the people in the
town. He wanted to improve their
lives through education,
literacy, and physical well
being. In 1840, he established a
lending library, based around
agriculture primarily, and this
expanded. In 1850, he
established the Olympian
society, obviously based on
these Ancient Greek ideas. And
it was looking to get healthy,
competitive, physical sport. And
it was very, very successful. He
established then, games across
the wider area of Shropshire,
and then in the 1860s this went
further, and he got together
with, with men from London and
Liverpool and created the
National Olympian Association.
And something I've written about
is the 1865 games that took
place in Birmingham, for
example, in the year prior to
that, WG Grace, the great
cricketer he, he competed in the
first holding of the event at
Crystal Palace. He'd scored 232,
I think it was, at the Oval,
excused himself from fielding,
came over and run the 440 yard
hurdles and, and then won that.
And came to national fame for
the first time. And so yeah, and
this is a big event, dies off
very quickly, because there's,
there's, there's conflict with
the upper classes who are
running other sports who wanted
very much, upper class
dominance. William Penny
Brookes' philosophy is very much
sport for all, and that's really
key. And then his message kind
of gets out, and he gets in
touch with Pierre Barron de
Coubertin, who, who goes on to
found the Olympic Games. And in
1890, Coubertin visits Much
Wenlock for a special holding of
the games in the October. They,
they've already had that year's
edition, but they come and see
it from this year. And it's kind
of widely acknowledged that from
this point onwards, that de
Coubertin starts writing about
the foundation of a new Olympic
movement, something that he's
been inspired to do by William
Penny Brookes. And, and this is,
yeah, really, really exciting.
And sadly, William Penny Brookes
died shortly before the founding
of the, the holding of the first
Olympic Games. He was unable to
go to the meeting at Sorbonne
where the IOC was founded, but
it's very much, very much his
legacy, and something we saw in
the 2012 Olympics with Wenlock
the mascot. Named in honour
after Much Wenlock and William
Penny Brookes.
Rex: It's yeah, it's an amazing
area of history that I didn't
know anything about until I
started researching for this
podcast. But yeah, it was great,
like that they paid their dues
to it in the 2012 Olympics, like
you said with the mascot. So
yeah, talking about the
Olympics, a lot of your work
focuses on the 1908 London
Olympics that we've mentioned.
Can you tell us a bit about why
this was a significant Olympic game?
Luke: Yeah, certainly, from a
British point of view, it's
Britain's first serious entry
into the Olympic Games. As I
mentioned, the first games are
held in 1896 in Athens. There
are a few British competitors
there. I think, I think a team
of four went out. They were
dismissed as an athletic whim by
one of the publications at the
time. And some, I think, you
know, there is the famous story,
how true it is of John Boland,
who was an Irish tourist, who,
who found the easiest way to get
a tennis court in Athens was by
entering the Olympic tennis
competition, which he would go
on, which he would go on to win.
But Britain isn't, isn't
serious, in 1900. A lot of the
people who go out to compete in
Paris actually don't realise
they're competing in an Olympic
games until they return. I think
one of the famous examples would
be the cricket match there. And
for example, which, where
Britain beat France. And, but in
1905, the British Olympic
Association is founded and in
1906 Britain is actually awarded
the Olympic Games after Italy
dropped out. Rome was supposed
to host the games, but through
mainly financial reasons, Italy
dropped out, Mount Vesuvius had
erupted. And they blame this.
And, and this is real, as I say,
it's Britain's first serious
entry into the games. It's also
the first time that nation
states actually entered the
Olympic Games. Previously to
this, you know, me, or you,
could have just entered
ourselves into the games as
athletes. But now actually,
we're looking at the best of the
best. You know, it's the largest
at the time, held from, from
still the longest ever Olympics
held from April to October 1908.
It's got different phases, the
Spring Games, the Summer Games.
And then there's the actual, the
even, the Autumn games. And
certainly it's notable here for
the nationalism, which I think
is something important we talk
about, but also the controversy
that comes about with it as well.
Rex: So you mentioned how this
was sort of more of a
professional Olympic games, it
had the best of the best
athletes. But there was quite a
typically British snobbery
around athletes, wasn't there at
the time? You've kind of written
about this concept of the
amateur athlete. Can you just
elaborate a bit more about that
and how that's kind of related
to the British class system at
the time?
Luke: Yeah, I think, you
certainly, I say professional,
it is well organised, most
definitely. I think that is one
very notable feature. There's
often a suggestion that Britain
saves the Olympic Games in 1908
because of the work that it
does. The amateur sportsman is
very much ingrained in British
sporting culture, and is very
much a reflection of the class
system that we, that we see in
Britain at the turn of the 20th
century. We've got men of the
upper class who believe in this,
this idea of effortless
superiority, that, that people
don't train hard to compete and
to do well. They're actually
based on their, kind of built
in, rather that, they're,
they're kind of born, rather
than, than trained to be, to be
good athletes. And this really
comes into conflict with other
nations visions of amateurism,
which simply just means, you
know, not actually paying them
to compete. And there is
acceptance of professionalism
within British sports, we've got
the Football League, which
relies on professional
sportsmen, as does county
cricket, where there's, in both,
we actually see amateurs and
professionals competing side by
side, but the Olympics is very
much an amateur preserve.
Rex: That's really interesting.
I've written down an excerpt
from your book. I hope you don't
mind if I read it. So you're
quoting the, this is a bit
before, you're quoting the
rules, the rule book of the 1878
Henley Regatta. And you write,
"no person shall be considered
an amateur oarsman or sculler,
who is or has been in trade or
employment for wages, a
mechanic, artisan or labourer".
So was there effectively a fear
from the upper classes of the
working class competing. And
basically outplaying them?
Luke: Yeah, most definitely. And
the Amateur Rowing Association,
Rex: I mean, talking about the
sort of snobbery and the fear or
I think we should see as the, as
the strictest of all the, the
athletic bodies at this time, in
its enforcement of amateurism
and, and their real fear was
that we'd get men who would be
working in the boats, who would
have, who would be working on
the clash between the classes, I
guess there was also a snobbery
rivers and the such like, who
would be fit and stronger, and
dedicating their whole lives to
this and showing up the, the
upper class members of society
who just did this in their, in
their spare time as a leisure
activity. And this is this real
fear here, and we see this
throughout the period that I
study, coming up to the
Stockholm games, and the raising
of funding, the Amateur Rowing
Association, or Rowing
Associations, totally up against
it. Well why? One, because they
don't need the funding. The men
they put forward come from
Leander and from New College.
They don't need the money.
They've got these great
facilities. They've got these
great abilities to train
already. They don't need these
things. And I think it's
actually just going to make
Britain professional, even
though, perhaps in their way,
that they're kind of semi
professional in their outlook,
at least, although certainly
not, not paying at all.
between other countries,
specifically, kind of how
Britain and America approached
athletes and how they approach
training. Can you talk a bit
about that and how, how the
Americans approached it?
Luke: Yeah, and the 1908
Olympics, talk about
controversy. It is this clash
between Britain and America.
America established itself as
the premier Olympic nation
leading up to this, and Britain
believed that, actually it was
the premier sporting nation and,
and Britain obviously hadn't
paid keen attention to the
Olympics prior to this. And, and
this is this real clash, and the
American system is based on
this, on college athletics, and
all their athletes, primarily
would have been, been chosen
from this system, so they'd have
undergone training, coaching,
and the such like. And this is
very much within what the
Americans believed amateurism
is. I think we can certainly see
this as a legitimate amateurism.
But the British and the
establishment, and some of the
publications were certainly very
much against the American vision
of this versus this, the British
idea of effortless superiority.
Rex: Would it be fair to say
this was a time when Britain was
fairly insecure about the
physical health of its
population? I mean, coming into
sort of the early 20th century,
coming out of the Boer War. I
think I read that a third of men
had failed the medical
inspection to be eligible to
fight in the Boer War. So was
there, sort of, a fear that the
British population just wasn't
fit? And obviously, there's the
effects of industrial,
industrialisation around this
time as well. Could you just
talk a bit about that?
Rex: And talking again about the
marathon, I think, in the 1908
Luke: I think you're very right
in what you're saying, there is
a huge fear about how fit the
British population are at this
time. The Boer War is, is
damaging to this and also,
people believe that, sport is
one way that Britain can prove
itself. And then in the early
Edwardian period, Britain
undergoes some really damaging
sporting defeats. The prime
example would be talking about
the 1905 All Black Tour, when
they went around the country and
defeated everyone, everyone but,
but Wales. And Wales is seen as
saving the Empire, even though
New Zealand's very much part of
the Empire. But kind of saves
Britain's physicality and
sporting defeats like this, open
defeats in the amateur Golf
Championship by American
athletes, or American golfers,
rather, perhaps, I should say.
And it's really, really damaging
to the British psyche. They see
actually, the 1908 Olympics as a
chance to kind of get back and
Olympics, there was quite a,
relatively infamous marathon.
particularly the marathon race
as well. The marathon race is
something I've written quite a
bit about and, there's a,
there's a lot of really exciting
stuff being written generally
about the marathon race, but,
but Britain hasn't got a
background in the marathon race.
They have to hold trials in the
Spring and Summer of 1908 to
select these, their seemingly,
their best athletes because they
believe that this is the
ultimate show of physicality.
And a British victory here would
show that Britain isn't
undergoing this physical
deterioration. And a lot of the
material you can read from this
time, um, certainly kind of
reinforces ideas, this argument
about physical deterioration,
how Britain is or isn't declining.
Could you just talk a bit, a bit
about that? I think, was it,
Dorando?
Luke: Yeah. So, Dorando, yes.
The marathon was held on a
really hot day. Started in
Windsor Castle, the distance of
the marathon now, it actually
owes to, because it was
supposedly so that the young
princes and princesses could see
the start of the marathon. Held
on a really hot day, and the
British had been told to go out
really quickly. Um, somebody
I've written about is a
Birmingham athlete, he's
actually from Halesowen, Jack
Price, and he was, he'd been
very successful in the
Birmingham Olympic trial held by
Birchfield Harriers, and he'd
been told that, right, he needed
to go out really quickly and
keep up with some of the
supposed leading lights. Price,
like other British athletes,
dropped to, I think he dropped
away at 17 and a half miles. He
was very much in the lead. But
when it got down to the final
stages, we got Dorando, was in
the lead. The final throes of
the marathon took place in the
Olympic Stadium, which was,
which was full capacity. People
were very excited by this event.
Early in the games, they hadn't
been that popular. Ticket prices
had been, had been too high.
Full house, and he's actually,
he's in a real state at this
stage. He's clearly dehydrated.
There's talk that actually, he'd
even taken some wine on the
route of the marathon. That, we
can never actually be totally
sure of this. But he's helped up
several times by the British
officials. All of the officials
in the 1908 Olympics, were
British. All this about, you
know, kind of British hegemony.
They believed that actually,
that only the British were fit,
and they helped him up and,
essentially carried him over the
line. And there's some fantastic
photos that you'll, you'll see
in publications of this. And
straight away, after he passes
the finish line, the Italian
flag is hoisted up. And the
Americans, of course, are very
upset about this, because their
man Johnny Haynes, who was a
Irish American, comes in second
place. And this comes after a
tumultuous two weeks where we'd
seen lots of competition and
issues between the British and
the Americans. And yeah, perhaps
the great, the greatest marathon
race in history, without a
doubt. And it's so massive, it
starts a marathon boom on both
sides of the Atlantic.
Rex: It sounds eventful. I think
I'd struggled to run a marathon
after having wine given to me.
So yeah, I'm gonna go back to
this idea of the amateur
professional, the amateur
athlete. When did this, kind of,
start to change, and was it
affected by the First World War?
Luke: Even prior to the First
World War, British Olympic
thinking is beginning to change.
The 1912 Olympics are disastrous
for Britain. Britain comes third
place in the medals table, which
today I think we'd be more than
happy with. Yeah, obviously the
Rex: Yeah. I mean, it's
interesting that you've talked
Olympics are a lot, a lot
smaller in terms of nations at
this time, but they're a long
way behind the Americans in
first place, and Sweden, in
second. And in athletics, they
actually come in fourth place,
behind Finland, who've got some,
several distance runners who
kind of carry them over there.
And this is seen as, the Duke of
Westminster, declares this as a
national disaster. And after
this, there's talk about,
actually, should Britain drop
out of the Olympic Games? Is
this the place to be, based on
this idea of amateurism? And
so much about how seriously
Britain was taking this and kind
Britain decides to carry on. The
next Olympic Games in 1916 are
due to be held in Berlin. And by
this stage, there's high
tensions between Britain and
Germany, through military
tensions, they're building
dreadnoughts and the such like.
A war seems inevitable, but the
thought is, if Britain's going
to go to Berlin, we need to be
up there competing with the
Germans. The Germans are showing
in 1908 and 1912, they're
starting to grow as an athletic
force. And so Britain actually
looks to raise £100,000 through
a Special Olympic Committee,
organised by the British Olympic
Association. Which includes,
of how it was standing as, like
almost standing in for relations
amongst others, Sir Arthur Conan
Doyle, the creator of Sherlock
Holmes, who was, is involved in
lots of some of these projects
at this time. And this is a
massive failure, this idea they
want to make, raise £10,000
within months. It doesn't
happen. But the money does
actually allow for the
employment of the first ever
professional British athletics,
Olympic athletics Coach. And
this is a Canadian gentleman,
Walter Knox. And he's a
professional all round champion.
So like a decathlon champion.
This would have been really,
hated by many people within
British institutions. But the
idea is, right, we're going to
continue in the Olympic Games,
and we're going to look to do it
properly. We're going to look to
between countries. But how was
it kind of perceived in the
really have lots of investment,
and actually the, the First
World War comes along and stops
him making any real progress.
There is evidence that in field
events, which is his specialism,
he's starting to make
improvements. After the First
World War, things return.
Britain wants to go back to kind
of the Edwardian high life
before all these tensions, so
that actually more amateurism
comes around once again, and we
can see that things through like
the Chariots of Fire Olympics in
'24, a kind of a further
endorsement of this. And there's
no real thrust towards what we'd
think as more professional
media? Was there a sort of sense
of apathy around this time
practices within amateurism,
certainly until after the Second
World War, when the world
changes once again. From a
British perspective, obviously
we see Nazi Germany, looking
very much to boost its athletic
abilities and as a show of power
in the '36 games. But for
Britain, this doesn't kind of
emerge for a long time
afterwards, and even perhaps,
you know, once National Lottery
appears in the late 1990s, does
Britain really start to begin to
take the Olympic Games seriously
from that kind of coaching
perspective, and putting serious
money into it once again. And
does Britain become this
Olympic, this Olympic force? So
there's very much, you know,
towards the Olympics, a sort of
almost sense of disinterest?
look at people like Seb Coe in
the 80s and Steve Ovett, and
that, they're very much, they're
professional athletes, but
they're having to go about other
means, to go about getting their
funding, and going about their
business, really.
Luke: Most definitely, as I
said, that, Britain wasn't
interested in the 1896 games.
They certainly dismissed it as
an athletic whim. 1900, and 1904
in St Louis, Missouri, is an
absolute disaster as an
Olympics, but the British, the
only, Britain's claim is it's
been represented in every
Olympic Games. But in 1904, only
three athletes compete and
they're all Irishmen. And none
of them have links to Britain.
Obviously, we could talk about
Ireland at that time. It's a
very different subject, but
they're not linked to Britain,
but Britain isn't overly
interested, and this is
reflected in the media. British
preferences is for it's own
sporting events. Britain's got a
very well established sporting
calendar. When we think about
the sporting Summer we might
have today, and they're still
the same as at the turn of the
20th century, the Henley
Regatta, Royal Ascot, open golf,
cricket at Lourdes, Wimbledon.
They're really ingrained. These
are what the British are
interested in, or certainly the
upper classes. These people who
read publications like The
Bystander, The Illustrated
Sporting and Dramatic News. I'm
sure there's other ones we could
name. They're interested in
British amateur sports. They're
a social event as well as a
sporting event. And Britain's
kind of apathetic base on this.
This is an event that's,
organised by a Frenchman. French
shouldn't be organising sport.
This is a British reserve. So
think that explains why Britain
is largely disinterested, as
well as the ideas about
amateurism, and other nations
not keeping up to their vision
of amateurism.
Rex: And there was a, sort of, a
difference, wasn't there between
how Britain perceived track and
field events. There was a bit of
a distinction there, wasn't
there? Could you just talk a bit
about that as well?
Luke: Yeah, you know, athletics
is a, is a big popular sport in,
in Britain, at this time,
there's, there's big events that
happen quite frequently. Most of
those at the Amateur Athletic
championships, which is, is the
premier athletic event in the
world, excluding, you know,
prior to the Olympics, and
still, out of Olympic years, it
would be the, the premier
sporting event, but it's very
much about track athletics. You
would see field events in some
of the running events and the
jumping events, but the throwing
events in particular are just
totally and utterly dismissed.
In 1908 Britain is very
unsuccessful in track and field
athletics, is, is, America
sweeps the board by winning
almost all of the gold medals.
Where does Britain lose out?
Well, it loses out in field
events. It's only thanks to
Irishmen in the throwing events
that it actually get some kind
of decency. And in the wake of
this, in 1910, we get the
formation of the Amateur Field
Events Association. Sir Arthur
Conan Doyle was involved again.
Once again, then, we've got, um,
FIM Webster. Um, he's very much
behind this, and he's a big
field events advocate. But
there's a lack of equipment to
actually have this. There's a
lack of facilities to host the
events. There's actually a lack
of enthusiasm. We're talking
about the Amateur Athletics
Championships being the premier
sporting events of the world,
but not all Olympic field events
were included in the
championships until 1913, which
shows some part the work of the
Amateur Field Events
Association. And Britain, why do
Britain like this? Well, I think
it's because of the
specialisation that's required.
The idea, it's quite, they're
quite physical, anybody. I've
never been very successful
throwing the shotput because,
I'm not big and strong. And
Britain sees this as actually
being a specialist event in
which to do. And it goes against
this idea of effortlessly
superiority and the British
physique and the amateur
physique at least.
Rex: Great. I mean, we've
mentioned a lot of sort of
famous male athletes around this
time. Let's talk about a bit
about what sporting
opportunities were like for
women around this period?
Luke: Yeah, I think it's a
really interesting aspect. And
I've spoken a number of times
about the 1908 Olympics and I'm
always asked well, why are you
not talking about women? Women's
place is very small. In 1896,
there were no women whatsoever.
De Coubertin believed that they
should go on with the Ancient
Greek ideal, of there were no
women, so there would be no
women there. And there is some
women who compete in 1900, in
sports such as golf, for
example. And we do see that in
1908. We see some tennis, we see
archery, and there's some
fantastic images within
publications like The Bystander
of women's archery taking place
inside the track, which is
fantastic, but well, women are
marginalised at this time within
sport, in general. In 1912 we
get swimming included for the
first time for women, being very
much part of the games since
1896. Athletics doesn't start to
appear into the 1920s, for
women, only in the small number
of events and, and even in 1948,
we get Fanny Blankers-Koen, who
is actually, you know “the
flying housewife“. Women can
only compete in the sprint
events. And it isn't until 1984
that we actually see women
compete in the Olympic Marathon.
That's, and get that kind of
equality from a sporting sense.
Rex: Yeah, there's a reoccurring
supplement in The Illustrated
Sporting and Dramatic News, I
think it's called “The Sporting
Woman“. And I'd say about sort
of 90% of it focuses on women's
golf. So why were women, kind
of, restricted to only certain
sports around this time, and how
was it represented in the media?
Luke: I think there's,
obviously, there's that class
aspect, isn't it? Certainly, you
talk about The Illustrated
Sporting and Dramatic News, and
from everything in my research
suggests that it's very much for
the middle, middle and upper
classes, isn't it? This is their
kind of sporting reserve. We've
seen the Football Association
ban women's football. You know
the physicality about this,
that, you know, the danger to
it. I suppose, women are seen
as, as been fragile. I suppose
golf and tennis, to some extent,
still enforces this idea of
fragility, but certainly during
the interwar period, we see golf
as being taken as a serious
preserve for women, seeing
women's golf and being taken
seriously. And, and someone I've
looked into a little bit, and
somebody who really interests me
is, is Pam Barton. She's one of
the leading lights of the 1930s,
she's just 17 when she starts
competing at the Amateur
Championship, and at 19, she's
actually won the Women's Amateur
Championship, which is the only
championship for women. There's
no professional championship, is
there, it's just for men. They
are starting to see women
seriously as golfers at this
time, and she's really kind of
big at this. They see her as a
genuine golf superstar, not just
as a lady hitting a ball around,
or, you know, belittling there
in any way.
Rex: I mean, you've mentioned
the FA Cup ban, which I believe
is in 1921. So, I mean, when did
things begin to change? When
were opportunities for women
sort of opened up in terms of sport?
Rex: Talking of equality, let's
talk a bit about some schools
Luke: I think it's something
that we're still seeing today,
isn't it? We, you know, we, I
know we spoke out there about
the changes that we're seeing,
you know, attendances at women's
and universities, because at
this time, British athletes were
football matches. And, and
women's football, still and
women's sport is still, kind of
very much growing and
developing. We've seen some
great strides with
professionalism given to
women's, you know, with the
women's Super League, where all
players have to be professional.
We've seen a lot more
professional women's cricketers
over recent years. But women's
sport is still developing. As I
mentioned about the 1984
marathon was, was really big for
women's sports, but we, we still
didn't see equality in boxing
until 2012, for example. You
know, Nicola Adams competing.
It's the first time women had
opportunity. So to talk about
equality. I still don't feel
that we're quite there. The
Commonwealth Games, last summer
was, was fantastic for women's
sports because it was the first
time at a mega event that there
were more women than men
competing. And we had, we had
events just for women, netball,
of course, always, but we had a
cricket competition that got
huge crowds in 2020, but it was
just for women.
sort of dominated by public
school, kind of Oxbridge
athletes. How did that sort of
affect the British?
Luke: Well, you can see it's
quite limiting in, in some ways.
In 1908 there's a lot of,
bemoaning about athletes not
being supported. The upper
classes are entertaining foreign
dignitaries and foreign
athletes, but actually they're
not looking after what they see
as the artisan runners from up
north. And if you look at some
of the sporting press,
particularly things like The
Athletic News, which is based in
Manchester, and some of the
Birmingham sporting
publications, they're belittling
and just criticising, actually,
the efforts that's been given.
There's been no help for a train
fare, or hotels, or anything
like this, for their athletes.
It's a, it's very much dominated
by the upper classes. Somebody I
have written quite a bit about
is Jack Price, who competes, I
mentioned previously. And he had
to find his own train fare. His
home club, Small Heath Harriers,
went round begging other local
clubs to help, have coaching and
being properly prepared, as he
was a representative of the West
Midlands. Whereas you know that,
the upper classes are very much
looking after, and they believe
that the, you know, the amateur
athlete does this out of their
own pocket. If you relate this
to issues in broken time
payments in rugby league, paying
people for not being at work,
and, and there's a belief that
even expenses shouldn't be given
to amateur athletes.
Rex: I mean, there's a dominance
in our London collections of, I
mean, the sports that are
represented are definitely very
much for the middle, upper
middle classes, upper classes.
Sports like polo, golf, cricket,
tennis. I mean, what was the
average British person doing at
this time? What sports were they
playing?
Luke: I think there's, there's
good opportunities. You know,
Rex: I mean, do you think things
are are better now? Or do you
professionalism owes this, this
growth of the working class. You
know, we see huge amounts of
successful professional
think we still have a way to go?
I mean, just thinkng of, sort
sportsmen from the late 19th
century. Most definitely, there
is opportunity, we talk about,
you talk about the Boer War
of, the 2012, London Olympics
compared to the 1908 London
recruitment. There is this
belief that there isn't space,
that the working classes aren't
getting the opportunity to
compete, and this is owing to
British physical deterioration,
that these, that they're not
quite getting the opportunities
they once were. But there is
certainly the opportunity to
compete in sport, at least. The
Amateur Rowing Association would
bar people, and there are other
things that were put in place.
But on a recreational level, I
think there is certainly
opportunity for people of all
classes, I say people of all
classes, when we're talking
about men of all classes, to compete.
Olympics. Obviously there has
been the mass commercialisation
of sport, and we know a lot more
about fitness and sporting
science. I mean, can you just
talk a bit about, what have
been, sort of the major
developments over this period?
Luke: I think we're still seeing
a lot of kind of, maybe what we
see as upper class people
competing in elite sports in
this country. Look at the makeup
of the England rugby and cricket
teams. And there's some really
interesting stuff being written
about the number of public
school boys who have have
competed at the Olympic games as
well. I think, suppose. You
know, all these people are
particularly rich. Some of them
have got on scholarships. You
know, a youngster becomes, is a
good cricketer, and is realised
and gets a scholarship from a
public school. And why would
their parents not send them
there? Because, if, you know, it
might not bring a cricket
opportunity, but it's certainly
going to bring a good
educational opportunity. So you
can't bemoan people for taking
that opportunity. But still,
there are issues and continuum
about space. And you know the
slogan of London 2012 was, it
was "Inspire a generation".
There's certainly a lot of
argument that it hasn't inspired
that generation, as was desired.
Which is really sad, but we've
still got a long way to go
about, about encouraging young
people to play sport,
Rex: Definitely. I mean, we've
covered a lot, just to sort of
sum up, why do you think it's
useful to study the sporting
activities of the past? I mean,
what can it tell us about the
British populace back then?
Luke: I think sport is such an
intrinsic part of British
society. It's, it's such a big
part, and it can tell us so
much, where some historians
refer to it as history from
below. This is, this is really,
really big, and we can, we can
learn so much about our society,
its development and, and
hopefully, a bit of, a bit of
interest as well, a bit of
interest and excitement, that we
can learn very much about that
now, the world in which these
people live through sport, which
is such a huge part about
people's lives.
Rex: Great. Well, Luke, thank
you very much for your time.
It's been really interesting.
Luke: Thanks very much for
having me.
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