Ep. 177: SBS Special Forces Veteran on Violence, Awareness, and Self Protection

Violence arrives fast and leaves a long shadow.

Former British SBS Special Forces veteran Sonny Smith returns to the Silvercore Podcast for a grounded conversation on awareness, personal safety, and the realities of physical confrontation.

Drawing from experience in UK Special Forces, executive protection, surveillance work, and professional bare knuckle boxing, Sonny talks through how people are selected as targets, how situations escalate, and where confidence drifts ahead of capability. We discuss awareness as a practiced discipline, avoidance as a measure of competence, and the responsibility that comes with force.

As the conversation deepens, it turns inward. We explore life after high risk work, mental health, identity, and the weight carried once the external danger fades. Sonny speaks openly about his personal experiences with ayahuasca as part of a broader reflection on trauma, accountability, and integration, without instruction or advocacy.

This episode is a clear-eyed look at judgment, restraint, and what survival demands, both in moments of danger and across a lifetime.

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Follow Sonny - https://www.instagram.com/sixsightco/

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Host Instagram - @Bader.Trav https://www.instagram.com/bader.trav
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Timestamps

00:00 – Why most people misunderstand violence
03:45 – Bare knuckle boxing and reality versus fantasy
08:55 – Confidence, competence, and dangerous gaps
13:40 – Awareness without paranoia
18:25 – How predators actually select targets
23:10 – Situational awareness beyond buzzwords
28:00 – Subtle cues people miss before violence starts
33:15 – Why most self protection training fails
38:05 – Avoidance as a trained skill
43:20 – When violence becomes unavoidable
48:10 – Knives, firearms, and uncomfortable truths
54:30 – The psychological cost of physical confrontation

Mental Health and Psychedelics

01:00:05 – Life after violence and high risk careers
01:04:30 – Trauma, identity, and suppressed damage
01:10:15 – Why some people turn to ayahuasca
01:16:40 – Expectations versus reality
01:22:30 – Integration, responsibility, and accountability
01:28:10 – Mental health without shortcuts
01:33:40 – What survival actually means long term

What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

If you've been following the show for a
while, you'll already know today's guest.

If you have even a passing interest
in self-defense, self-protection, or

situational awareness, his work will
likely already be familiar to you.

He grew up in a tumultuous
environment, went on to serve with

the British Royal Marines, and
from there, the UK Special Forces.

Later he worked in executive
protection and corporate surveillance.

His new book, man protect polls
from all of these to help you

better understand danger, read human
behavior, and move through the world

with more confidence and clarity.

Welcome back to the Silver Court
Podcast, my friend Sonny Smith.

Thanks for having me back.

Right on.

It's been a few years, hasn't it?

It's

been a minute, hasn't it?

So much has happened actually
in that time, but I'm very

happy to be here.

Thanks for having us back.

Why don't you catch me up on what's
happened between the last podcast and help

catch up the audience and now, uh, well, I

started a new career little side hustle,
which is professional bare knuckle boxing.

Mm-hmm.

Had four professional fights in that time.

One that you attended.

Actually, that was a fun one.

Yeah, that was fun.

In uh, Edmonton, I was headline that show.

Unfortunately I lost, but that is
the sport of bare knuckle boxing.

It's a savage sport.

Some say the most savage sport
and everyone I look up to

has lost bare knuckle fights.

In my younger days I
lost bare knuckle fights.

Mm. When you are flying
these fists at each other.

Someone's going down and
that's why it's so exciting.

Well, that's what surprised me.

Like when I first started watching
it, I'd never watched bare

knuckle boxing before I met you.

And there you are, you're out
in the stage at the, what is it?

The O2 arena?

Yeah.

In London.

And I'm watching you on
the, uh, the pay-per-view.

And, uh, man, some of these
fights, they're one punch and

they're done and it's over.

And it only takes that one punch in the
right way to really change the outcome.

And like, I'd watch these guys,
I'm like, oh, for sure this

guy's gonna win over here.

And the other guy, Hey, he got in.

Maybe he wasn't bigger.

Maybe it wasn't tougher,
or whatever it might be.

So it's, you're going in.

It's, it's like court.

Maybe they say you have a hundred
percent successful case, you go into

court and the second you step foot in
it's, you know, 70% you're gonna win.

Yeah.

Anything can happen.

Yeah.

You know, and it's real.

You know, if you are ever standing
in the doorway of your home and you

are defending your family, then you
are fighting with your bare fists.

That's why I like it.

And yeah, no matter how good
you are, you can always get

caught with that wrong shot.

The eyes are exposed all the time.

A lot of fights are stopped
from getting hit in the eye.

Mm-hmm.

So I actually train with an eye
patch sparring sometimes, because

you're gonna lose an eye at some
point it's gonna either swell up or

you're gonna get hit in it and you're
gonna have to fight through that.

Um.

But yeah, just get hit on
the wrong place on the chin.

Then you get dropped.

My last fight I got dropped with a jab.

Mm. Which in normal boxing,
you get dropped with a jab.

People kinda laugh at that.

Mm. But yeah, you, you, you can't
laugh at bare knuckle boxing.

Well, I remember after the fight was over,
everyone's kind of clearing out and myself

and Jace and Chance, and we went in behind
the security back behind everyone else.

We just said, oh, no, no.

We're here.

We're supposed to be good.

Right.

And everyone just let us walk on through.

We go into the back area,
we're looking for you.

And like, oh man, where's sunny?

And we're searching up and down.

And finally Jason and Chance are
like, well, I guess he's not here.

Well let's make plans of
what we're gonna do next.

Maybe, maybe he took off and I'm
like, just, just gimme a moment.

I'm gonna just check this one last room.

And I go in this back area
down, down the stairs.

And there you were with some
very concerned doctors and

nurses and people sitting around.

You're like, yeah, I'm fine.

And they're like, ah.

And they're sitting
there stitching you up.

And uh, remember Jace who pointed it out?

He is like, uh, hey mate, is your
nose supposed to look like that?

Yeah.

It was, uh, at a different angle.

It was actually at a right angle.

It was, it was been broken many times,
but at that, that break was the worst.

Mm-hmm.

And uh, I had to have that reset.

About a week later.

And that was one of the most
painful experiences of my

life actually at that time.

The doctor tried to reset it
right there, but it didn't do it.

I remember

I was watching him do it, he's like,
here, let's see what we can do.

And you're like, ah.

I actually thought, 'cause most,
a lot of the time they think that

I've broken my nose when I haven't.

'cause it was already bent.

Mm. So I, I was like, nah, it's fine.

It's already bent.

Not until I actually looked in the mirror
way later and I was like, whoa, actually.

So it was like facing that way.

It was like, it was horrendous.

Well, you just kept saying that.

You're like, oh, it's fine, it's normal.

My nose is always like this.

I'm like, I don't think so.

And the doctor's like, can you
pull up some pictures of Sonny

before the fight and after?

And so we're pulling this stuff up.

He's like, yeah, no, this is,
this is gonna need some attention.

Yeah.

Well, they actually said, I'll give
it a few days and then go to the

a and e. And uh, so I did that.

And when I got to a and e, they was
like, oh, you've left it too long.

We can't reset it.

And I was like, wow.

Come on, someone's gotta do something.

I can't walk around like
this for the rest of my life.

Mm. So then there was like, oh,
there's one doctor down in Richmond

that might be able to help you.

And then there was like five
days gap for that appointment.

When I got down there, he was like,
no, you've left it way too long.

I'm not doing anything.

And I was like, come on, please.

Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna have to have a
friend break it for me.

Right.

And then he was like, oh,
there's one other guy that I

can uh, give you to Dr. Nick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Up in West Van.

Okay.

And, uh, I went into that, it was a
full on like a rhinoplasty surgery.

Okay.

It was like a plastic surgeon basically.

And everyone else in this waiting room
were like rich Iranian women from Sure.

That area.

Sure.

That were getting full on
thousands of dollar nose jobs.

Mm. But I got it for free 'cause
I was, uh, given, passed there

through the a and e system.

Right.

And, uh.

He was like, yeah, I can
do something for you.

Uh, but it won't be very pleasant.

And uh, he had me in his chair and he
had these two metal rods up my nose.

He was, had one foot on the chair and
he was just going boom, boom, boom.

And I was sitting there like that,
like, oh fuck did he freeze it?

He gave me the little anesthetic
injections, uh, around it to numb

it, but it didn't fully numb it.

And I could feel inside.

It was just fucking, but I'm very
thankful that he did that because

I had to walk around like that.

And it was.

It was a joke.

It was so sideways.

Um, but that was a painful experience.

Oh man.

I have to admit,

you know, in, in my early twenties, I,
uh, had a few too many drinks before going

out my first time whitewater rafting.

And I was, um, running through this
field out in the, um, uh, by we rafted

down the Thompson River and they had a
big cinder block and I, and I broke my

little toe and thought off nothing of it.

Yeah.

Let the thing heal up.

We'll go to the doctor.

Doctor says there's nothing
we can do about this.

You left it too long.

This was a way will ways longer.

And, uh, so I know what I'll do.

So I just put a wedge in between
my toe and I figured I'd give

it a whack and break it back.

And I did, but I broke
it in the wrong place.

So now if you look at my little
toe, my kids call it my shal,

little zigzag on zigzag there.

Geez.

Oh.

But yeah, I um, I was surprised
too 'cause the doctor's like, no

self-respecting doctor's gonna fix
your nose if you're still fighting.

But you're still fighting, aren't you?

Yeah, and he actually put me on the
list for actual surgery, uh, for

rhinoplasty, but I haven't gone with
that 'cause I am still fighting.

I plan to fight, um, in probably
February, March this year.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

2026 and uh, I still
don't have an opponent.

I'm still waiting for the opponent,
but I'm got that in my mind now.

Well, you were headlining on that one
too, and I remember on the headline

we're looking at this and the stats
between it, it's like, why, why are

they matching The two one's got a
much longer reach and he is, you

know, look different weight look like.

And um,

he is a middleweight actually,
usually, and we fought well to weight.

He, now he's had two fights in
middleweight, so he was cutting, uh,

quite a bit to get to that level.

And, uh, I have no shame in.

Losing to him.

Sure.

He's a good guy.

He is gone on.

He's four and oh four knockouts now.

Good

for

him.

And the only person that's
knocked him down is me.

Excellent.

Which I'm pretty happy with that fight.

I've watched it back and it's for one
round that is back and forth action.

It's trademark, bare knuckle.

That's why the BKFC is so big

now.

Well, you know, if anyone ever wants
to watch bare knuckle boxing, like

for me when I was watching it for
the first time, I'm like, what?

That's it.

The fight's already over and of course
the person's bleeding everywhere and they

have to pull 'em and the other one wins.

It's like, these are so quick.

But then you get on and
you go the distance.

There's one thing that you carry with
you and that's massive heart and massive.

I am just not going down.

Yeah.

That's carried with me for my whole life.

Even if I. I'm quite proud of that.

Even when I, I got knocked out before
that, I'm still trying to get up.

It's in my sure
consciousness to just get up.

Mm. Like there's no, like quitting me.

And actually, maybe I shouldn't say this,
but there's some bare knuckle fighters

out there that you see, they get hit,
they haven't like lot got hit in the eye

and they go down, they stay down for me.

I'm like, what the hell are
you even doing in there?

Like what, what is this?

That's it.

It's not bloody chess match.

Do you know what I

mean?

I think, um, I think for a lot of people,
their mental preparation might not.

Extend past the, the training,
Hey, I'm gonna train.

I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna win.

And if I don't, well then I, they don't
have that mental framework for what

happens when everything's going sideways.

Yeah.

And also getting hit with a bare
knuckle punch is way different

than getting hit with a glove on.

Mm-hmm.

And people don't really experience
that until they're in there.

Mm-hmm.

You get glove boxes that come over
to bare knuckle and they're not

doing very good, to be honest.

Right.

They're getting, there's
different rule changes.

You can clinch and punch, you can
grab hold of them and throw shots.

And that's how I knocked Drew down.

Mm-hmm.

I was grabbing him by the head
and fucking giving him some, you

know, I mean, and in boxes you're
not allowed to do that obviously.

Right.

But it's sort an GRE part of the sport,
which changes it in niche fighting

quite dramatically to be able to.

Grapple a little bit.

Standing up clinching, uh, one of the
main fighters, Banton weight champion

Kai Stewart, he's a wrestler in his
background and he's undefeated champion

over many like traditional class boxers.

He's just demolished them because
he's usually wrestling standing up.

Mm-hmm.

Off balancing them and then hitting
them when they're like kind of

inboxing if you're shoulder barging,
like you're not allowed to do that.

Right.

It's just a kind of, it's a different
element that makes it more exciting.

Yeah.

Well, it's

exciting for sure, and it is, you can't
have a weak stomach going into it because

it's, uh, it's a, uh, it's a gnarly sport.

Yeah, but you're gonna
be good back in it, huh?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, can't, can't leave it like that.

You know what

I mean?

Okay, fair enough.

Yeah.

That, that was one thing
that I was concerned about.

'cause I mean, you had win, win,
win, you're doing really good.

And then you had that fight.

Your headlining, you're not on home turf.

He was on home turf.

We were yelling as loud as we could,
you know, go, go up, up Royal Marines.

Just, just go sunny.

Right?

And um, and he said, well,
I couldn't hear any of that.

I could just hear everyone else going.

Right.

And there's that psychological side to it.

And that was a concern.

I was like, like where?

Where's your head gonna
be at after this fight?

And then I'll reach out to everyone was
reaching out to you after this fight.

Yeah.

It's really nice

that people do that, but personally,
I used to get beaten up like that

when I was younger and I'd wake up
in an alleyway or in a hospital bed.

Mm-hmm.

There's no paycheck,
there's no pat on the back.

Do you know what I mean?

Sure.

It's just a. I know a lot of people,
if they get punched in the face on the

street in an altercation or robbed or
something, like the whole world collapses.

I should have sympathy for that.

Sure.

But I kind of, I'm like, well, you get
punched in the face, what the fuck?

Right.

They don't deal with it.

Do you know what I mean?

That's life.

Yeah.

But to be honest, yeah.

I've, I've had that, you know what I mean?

Real pain isn't getting punched.

Real pain is when you
lose a family member.

Sure.

Or you go through something
deeper inside your own mind.

Do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Real pain isn't that for me, but,

well, that's good.

And, and I guess a big part of
that is just your mental framework

ahead of time going into it.

Yeah.

And I guess that'd be a tough one
too, because you have to calculate

what losing looks like without setting
a pre-ex expectation of losing.

You have to calculate what
getting hit looks like without

the pre-ex expectation that you're
just gonna get hit all the time.

'cause that's, you watch people
fighting and sparring and it's like,

okay, like you threw a punch like
this and I'm gonna block like this.

Well, that's not real training.

Right.

You're, you're training
for a fake scenario.

How much realism can you bring into it?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I get the idea behind
never inputting any negative info

into your brain, but then how do
you prepare once that happens?

So like there, there's, there's
gotta be a delicate balance

between how much you actually
store inside the hard drive there.

Yeah.

I obviously never planned to lose when I
first got into bare knuckle in one of my

first interviews for the other promotion,
the British promotion I was with.

The guy was talking to me and I
remember saying, oh, just as long

as it's like an exciting fight
for the fans, I don't really care.

He was like, but you're
trying to win, right?

And I was like, well, yeah, of course.

But yeah, I don't know.

I see it as entertainment
at the end of the day.

Obviously I'm trying to win.

Um, I had very hard opponents.

My first opponent with the BKFC,
they changed him two weeks before.

Mm. It was supposed to be another guy.

And then they changed him to this guy,
Jeremiah Riggs, who fought in the UFC.

He was at that over 50
professional fights.

He's also a middleweight naturally.

Mm-hmm.

And I obviously just accepted the fight
as my big break in the UFC and I got

stopped in that fight quite early on.

Mm-hmm.

But that was a step up.

A lot of people out there, they
wouldn't even take that fight.

They, they only wanna fight
when they know they can win.

Mm. You know what I mean?

But you're never gonna get past,
you always gotta push yourself.

Um, and then my second fight was Drew,
who's Golden Gloves champion in Canada.

He is a good boxer.

Mm-hmm.

He's gone on to win four by Knockout,
so I don't take that too bad.

Obviously it was a hard loss.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and also the annoying
thing was that I got injured.

I la landed a punch with my thumb.

They call it skiers thumb.

Oh, okay.

Um, and it was ligament damage.

So usually if you break a bone
you can kind of deal with it.

Yeah.

But ligament stuff is
way more complicated.

So that took a long time
to get the feeling back.

But also, I'm not a rich man.

I had to go to work at a new job.

Yeah.

And just hide that.

I couldn't fucking use my hand.

Do you, do you have use of it back?

You do?

Yeah, I do, but occasionally I'll
catch it a funny angle and then

it'll go back quite a few steps.

But I, I use like, um.

I do a lot of hand strengthening, knuckle
strengthening, but I have like a, it's

an elastic strands off of this ball that
you just stretch out like that, right?

And different angles.

I had to go and see a specialist
eventually to get it, uh, fixed.

And she told me it's called skier's thumb,
where okay, they usually flying past

and they catch it on the pole or a tree

or something, interest.

So I had that on, on this hand and
it was, uh, inner tubing at, uh,

Seymour and, uh, years and years ago.

And I brought my, I think it was my
little brother out with me and he's

yelling 'cause his two had fallen off.

And he's like, can you grab the two?

And it, sleet and snow was coming down.

I just opened my eye and
I, oh, I can see the tooth.

And I ran out as I'm sliding down
and I grab it and I, of course jammed

the thumb up and, and tore it back.

And I didn't see anyone about it.

And I just let it kinda heal
the way it's supposed to heal.

Until finally, you know, I
got my grip strength back.

But one time a doctor looked at it and
said, well, here, put your hands out.

And he puts pressure on one thumb.

He's like, press up.

He's like, now do it on this thumb.

And I had like no strength.

Yeah.

Because I, because I never trained
going back out the other way.

Mm. But uh, yeah,

that's exactly what they did
for me when they did the initial

assessment of the specialist.

Ah.

And then you realize how weak it is and
where, where you need to strengthen.

Yeah.

And it hurt every time I just like tap
into something like my old vehicle,

you'd have to pull or push the lights
on and off and I just kind of tap

it in there and it was just painful.

Same thing.

Yeah.

Exactly the same thing.

And I was just starting a
job driving boat, so I had to

use throttle with that hand.

Right.

Yeah.

So it wasn't too Well you've got a

new book out now.

Yep.

Man, protect, fulfill
your primal duty, man.

Protect, how'd you come up with that name?

Uh, well, it's kind of, it's, it
is our main role as men, isn't it?

Sure.

And we've kind of gone away from that
with society, but it's bringing it back to

these primal instincts using modern tools.

Mm. And uh, it actually comes
from the psychedelic experiences

that I had Interesting.

And showed me that I am a protector
in my back in the old, which our

minds haven't changed very much.

I would be a tribal protector,
I'd be a warrior, you know?

Right.

And that's why I'm wired the way I am.

That's why I've gone
into these lines of work.

And you don't have to have
the background that I've had.

Like, everyone is wired that way.

Right.

And part of the book is that you don't
have to be this dagger between your

teeth, Harder's nails operate a fighter.

It's all about detection.

And all the other options.

Fighting is the last resort.

So that's basically what
the book is showing, right?

Like giving you all these techniques
that real protectors, professional

protectors use in their profession.

And I. Let people know that engage
is right at the end of that.

And obviously engage is important and
there's a big part of the book about that.

Mm-hmm.

But we are trying not to get to that
point in every situation, really.

Especially if we are protecting our
family, which is the primary role as a

man.

I, I really like the book and
so I was overly optimistic when

I texted you a couple days ago.

My wife dropped me off
at the hunting shack.

I put a fire on, I'm resting
up my knee, which I'm not

really able to bend still yet.

And I thought, sat down
and I'm reading through it.

I give you a text, I'm like, I'm
gonna have the whole book done.

I meant, this is such an easy read.

It's so fun.

I'm so engaging.

Like you got all these personal
stories in there and how you.

How you teach in the book, you
start introducing a concept.

You start, it's gentle, it's very cool
how, uh, the concepts are introduced.

They're fleshed out.

You call back onto it,
then they're reinforced.

Uh, I don't know if you just pull in from
British military method of instruction,

uh, uh, training here, but, uh, it really
appealed to me the, um, uh, the way

that it, you lay out the information.

So anyways, I'll give you a text.

I'm gonna be done this book in No,
Todd, this is such a great read.

And then of course life gets in the
way and then a few days later here

and now and still can't bend the leg.

But, um.

Sorry, Sonny, I had to speed read a
few of those, the sections in here.

That's fine.

Yeah.

But the, the information in
here is, um, it's very good.

So I, I grew up, uh, in an environment
where situational awareness was

always drilled into us, and where,
from a policing background, my family

and, uh, a lot of the things that
you're looking at in your book are,

have a modern adaptation on some of
these older ideas that were put out.

And they're, they're really relevant
and they're really applicable that

anybody can pick up the book, go through
it, and apply in their everyday life.

Uh, what was it that drove you
to want to put this book out?

Uh, it is.

It's basically the accumulation
of everything I've learned

in my life to this point.

Mm-hmm.

And I've been lucky enough to
do many different disciplines.

Basically everything that I thought
was cool when I grew up, I've

tried to pursue at some point.

And now I've at the final one,
which is professional fighting.

That's always a dream of mine.

Mm-hmm.

As a kid.

So I'm kind of ticking that off right now,
which is an element of the book as well.

But you got like the corporate
espionage, you know, you could grow up

watching Jason Bourne and James Bond
and all the surveillance world stuff.

I was mega keen and
interested in all that.

Mm-hmm.

And then ended up doing it
as a job, uh, not for the

government in the private sector.

Um, and obviously the military stuff,
war fighting, it's, and then close

protection, bodyguarding, all of
these different disciplines have

their own skill sets and trade that.

You can master.

I actually say I'm a jack of all trades,
master of none that I've worked with

people in the intelligence side in
MI five, that all they've done for

their whole life is surveillance.

Mm. And they are masters of it.

Mm. And I've learnt from them and
then I've moved onto somewhere else.

Sure.

You know, and then, yeah, I've picked
up this and I've moved somewhere else

and I've brought together all of these
different elements into the book.

So it is basically a guide for
men in self-defense in all areas.

There's nothing that I
left out there actually.

The criticism of the book that
I had is that I could have

written two or three books.

Mm. I didn't wanna, I'm
not a marketing guy.

I'm not a businessman guy.

I want this to be my, my legacy.

Like, if you wanna learn how to protect
your family, then read this book.

And it covers all these
different subjects.

Gives you so many different
options other than fighting.

And then if it comes to fighting,
it tells you what really works.

So what is the full saying?

Jack of all trades, master of none.

But the full saying is,
I don't actually know.

It's still better off
than just a master of one.

Oh, it is?

Yeah.

So it's, uh, you know, everyone
says the first part, but they don't,

they don't talk with the last part.

And it really is a good
thing to be a jack of all.

Like if you are just a master of
just one thing and one thing only,

man, you're at a disadvantage to the
person who's a jack of All right.

Yeah.

Um, that's very true.

So you talk about the primal role of a
protector and you talk about it through

history and kinda what it looks like
and how modern life's dull the instincts

of men, which they've relied on those
instincts for thousands of years.

What shifted in our culture
that made this book necessary?

I think it's been

a push in recent years, um,
against masculinity is evident.

We, we know, we've all seen it, don't we?

And that's why we see
the rise of Andrew Tate.

He has some good messages and some
messages I don't really agree with, but

the reason people are turning to him is
'cause he is, um, standing up for men.

And what is natural to be a man?

It's our primal instincts.

Jordan Peterson's another advocate.

Mm-hmm.

Um, 'cause we're kind of getting
squashed, um, over the years.

It's like our instincts that we want
to protect, provide, we're kind of

getting told that we're not really.

Needed to do that, or it's kind of
overstepping the boundary in our

relationships when, you know, every man
knows if someone's coming through your

front door at night, you are stepping up.

Mm-hmm.

And you are expected to step up.

Mm-hmm.

Do you know what I mean?

So how does somebody step back into that
role without being paranoid or having

all this false bravado, like some of
these, uh, DERO Tates of, of the world?

Well, there's a lot of
different techniques.

They're all in the book.

By the book.

Yeah.

But it's a very vast subject.

'cause there's different character types.

I've got into a lot of
trouble when I was younger.

Mm-hmm.

I think a lot of it now that I'm a bit
older is because I'm quite softly spoken.

I don't have that alpha
male presence about me.

I don't really speak up, stand
at the front, try and lead.

Mm-hmm.

So kind of people see my kindness
and see it as weakness or my calm.

I've been stepped over a lot of
times and disrespected, and then

all of a sudden they realize,
oh shit, he isn't a walkover.

Do you know what I mean?

Mm. But different people are.

More accustomed to do different
things, different personality types.

Like some people have the gift of the
gab, they can talk their way out of

situations, and you should really lean on
your strengths in the book and in life.

We have different strengths, but we
can learn about the other trades,

uh, the other different techniques,
but also from like, pick out what you

are good at and then master those.

And these are your go-to moves.

Mm-hmm.

Especially when it comes to fighting like.

That's something else I talk about.

Just having your go-to moves, you don't
need 30 different techniques you probably

ever maybe get into an altercation once.

Hopefully not.

But if you do, you just need
one thing that works to get

yourself outta that situation.

Um, a straight jab, straight right hand.

Yeah.

That was my go-to move.

Used it many, many times.

It got me out on a lot of shit,

you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Mine, uh, growing up was always just
to choke the person unconscious.

There you go.

I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm a big guy.

Yeah.

And you know, as long as you can get
within my reach and I can use what

I have, my reach and my strength
to my advantage, I don't wanna be

slugging it out back and forth.

They always woke up again afterwards.

But it allows you the
opportunity to, to leave.

And if they're lying on the ground, waking
up unconscious or sometimes they crap

themselves and it's, you know, you held on
a little bit too long and, uh, but I, you

know, you touch on a few things in there.

Uh, in the book that spoke to me because
I, I never had the gift of the gab.

I've got a podcast now, right?

But I still don't feel like I have
the gift of the gab, and it's not my

first thing that I, I tend to rely on.

I will process things really quickly.

I tend to be able to see things faster.

Maybe it's the A DHD thing, and
I can use that to my advantage.

But I'm also 6 6 2 40 now.

I was two 50, uh, 240 pounds.

And uh, growing up I was always a target.

Everyone looked at, oh,
there's, everyone says, oh, you

probably never get in fights.

I'm like, I wish.

Why is it these like little guys
come in and all they wanted, do

they get their friends behind 'em?

'cause now they've got some
courage, maybe some liquid courage.

They look for the one soft spoken
person who's not out there trying

to antagonize or do anything.

Ah, I know, I'll take him down.

Right?

Yeah.

And it's, track it.

Yeah.

And I, I would be like, you know, it'd
be like flies to crap, shit magnet, shit

magnet over and over and over again.

So I had to learn how to, uh, spot it
ahead of time, how to swallow my ego.

And maybe it's time to leave 'cause
things are gonna get outta hand.

And if things were gonna get outta hand,
how to act very fast and very violently,

because I've been in it with multiple
people and it doesn't fare so well.

But if you can get your hands
on one of 'em and you can make

a big enough spectacle out of
that, the other ones will be.

But they tend not to step in.

Yeah,

that's

that's very true.

I have experience of
that in my life as well.

Sure.

I know you do.

I've had to fight multiple people.

Uh, at times I had a reputation when
I was younger, so people would come to

my town and we'd either have arranged
fights or you'd be in your normal places

on the night out and then a new lads,
lad lads would come in and like be

barging people and starting things and
uh, if I ever want to send a message,

I would have a go-to move to do that.

And that would be the old Glasgow kiss?

Mm, yes.

You know that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Headbutt, which is kind of a real
savage and shocking thing to do,

but that is the purpose of it.

Mm-hmm.

If you're going up against a few people,
then you need to really shock 'em.

You need to.

Make them know that you
are an absolute lunatic.

'cause not everyone has
that fight in mentality.

Mm. There'll be people on the sidelines
that will be looking in and they will be

deterred if you go absolutely animalistic.

Yeah.

There is a time and a place for that.

If you need to fight your way
out somewhere, then there is

a time and a place for that.

Um,

yeah, I don't do that anymore, but what
I really like about the book is how it

helps fill in the blanks for somebody
like myself growing up who didn't have

the gift or the gab, and you can show
people how to rely on other things.

Like enhance situational awareness, like
maybe a little bit of, uh, establishing

a baseline, seeing if you should be
there, how, how to swallow your ego.

All of these like little things that
uh, maybe some people know intuitively.

I think a lot of people, especially
men when they're younger, right,

they're young, they're dumb, lots
of testosterone going, and, uh,

sometimes that, that overrides the
gut instinct, which you also talk

about, which is a very powerful thing.

Yeah.

Intuition and instinct,
I think of closely tired.

Mm-hmm.

And especially for women, actually, they,
intuition should really be listened to

and men, but women need it more than
men because they don't typically have

that fighting capability to back it up.

And a lot of predators target women.

So with intuition, uh, I talk about
the science behind it and how I

believe it's instinct that are
subconscious mind is picking up on.

Visual signs, behaviors that are
conscious mind is probably not

recognizing, but there's something
there that's getting triggered.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And it could come at you in many
different ways and just to listen

to it, you know, especially if your
wife would say, I don't really have

a good feeling about that guy that.

Business partner maybe that you just met.

Mm. Or that guy at the door,
you know, just listen to it is

something to be thoughtful of.

Um, 'cause these are things we
kind of neglect these days, but

there is actually science behind
it, which I go through in the book.

Mm-hmm.

It's been studied and it's
seen to be a real thing.

Have you ever read Gavin de
Becker's book, the Gift of Fear?

Yeah, I have.

Yeah.

It's a great book.

It's a great book.

I mean, it's a really good marketing
tool for Gavin de Becker too.

Like, I had a hard time getting
through all of the, and the

Gavin De Becker Institute.

And the Gavin de Becker.

Right.

And on and on and on it went.

But, uh, the, the fundamental
underwriting thing was how you listen

to that women's intuition, that gut
feeling and helps kind of flash it out.

You've taken what his thick book is.

You've pulled out all the advertisement,
you've put your own experiences behind it,

and I think you've pulled really a lot of
the core ideas behind there, which is, uh,

will save people if they're, if they're
interested in this sort of thing from,

um, weeding through the muck and, and just
pulling out those key insights quickly.

Yeah, that was the point
of the book, really.

Yeah.

Like he's written this whole, I
don't know, 200 pages on basically

intuition where that is a little part
of it, but it's not the whole picture.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm collating all these different
things and actually give a little nod

to him in my book because he's, it
is good to go and do that research.

Um, on the intuition side,

well, what do

you think the biggest misunderstanding

civilians

have about modern threats?

Uh, a lot of people.

Just think that it's never gonna happen.

That violence has never happened.

It's normalcy violence.

Oh that's never happened round here.

So it is never gonna happen.

And we see this with terrorist
attacks in particular.

Um, which is actually the reason why I
started Six Sight and writing this book.

It was, I actually look back,
it's like seven years ago that

I started writing the book.

When I first put pen to paper, it was when
I was just left live living in London.

And anyone that know lives in London knows
of the terror threat and the different

types of attacks and what you should
watch out for and stuff to some degree.

Obviously I was on the other side
of it and defender role in the

military and I went to briefings,
so I knew a little bit more.

So like, but when I recently, I put up a
picture on my Instagram about the barriers

on Oxford Street, these big yellow metal
barriers and these big concrete bollards.

I had multiple people messaging
me saying, I'm confused.

I don't understand that's gonna
stop a terrorist 'cause they're

thinking of active shooters.

Sure.

These were Americans mainly.

Yeah.

Um, 'cause they don't really
understand the vehicle ram in

threat, which is the biggest threat.

It's the most common.

We've already had one this year in,
in, um, a Christmas market in Paris.

I think it was.

It was somewhere in France.

And the reason it is the biggest threat
is 'cause it's so easy, you know,

everyone's got a vehicle, anyone could
rent a car and right up until the point

where you're mounting a curb and then
you are a deadly weapon at that point.

Mm-hmm.

How can you detect that?

Well, the only counter as an individual
is having good situational awareness

and having a plan of what to do
and having some knowledge about

the environment you're in, which
is again, situational awareness.

Mm-hmm.

So if you are at a Christmas parade
or Christmas market, if you are the.

Man of the family, then it is
your job to protect everyone else.

No one else is gonna be thinking about it.

It's just this book has given you
the tools to like, oh look, there's

a concrete bollard over there.

If something happens, if I hear the
screeching, which I'm listening out

for anything above the baseline,
if I hear a roaring of an engine,

something abnormal in that environment,
then I'm gonna grab my kids.

I'm go into behind that
bollard or into this alleyway.

My exit is that way when I walk
into the parade ground or the area.

Are there concrete barriers that
are gonna stop a vehicle ram and

attacks, they can't even get down it?

Or is it just a, I dunno, some traffic
cones, which aren't gonna stop a thing?

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Um, all these concepts are.

I explain.

'cause I, I've had to think about, and
being from London and living in that

environment, it's kind of quite common.

Well, we had one here recently
in Vancouver, didn't we?

Yeah, it was a Filipino street festival.

Um, quite a few died, I can't remember.

But it was, it was very
high number of deaths.

And, uh, some children as well.

So that's just the reality
of the threats today.

Indiscriminate, plowing
through a family event.

It's horrendous.

Um, well you, you talk about situational
awareness both from, and, and what I

really liked was, uh, and leaning on your,
uh, executive protection and surveillance

side and sharing some of the skills that
you would use when following somebody.

And not, because everyone's gonna go
out and start following people, but if

you have an understanding of some of the
principles and tactics that are used,

it gives you a better understanding
of, are other people following me?

Um.

Why do you think predators are so
good at spotting who they can attack?

They,

uh, yeah, that's predators.

In the animal world and the human
world, they're exactly the same.

They use following what I call
the predator attack cycle.

So they're even in the recon phase,
they're out there on the hunt for

victims, maybe that be a pickpocket, maybe
that would be a, a mugger or a rapist.

So they're looking for
a certain victim type.

It's all a risk versus
reward kind of thing.

If you can outweigh them with risks,
looking like you can handle yourself,

being aware of your surroundings as
well as not being in the wrong places

at the wrong times and all that.

But at a glance, if they look at you
and they think, oh, maybe that guy.

He's got a bit of muscle on him.

Maybe he looks like he's ex-military,
which is another thing I talk about.

Mm-hmm.

Like the gray man tactic.

You can try and blend into environments if
you're in a foreign country, to not look

like an outsider, not look like a tourist,
but you can use, flip that over and try

and look like a formidable deterrent.

You can look like someone that they
don't wanna mess with wearing like

the black watch the right, yeah.

SBS

T-shirt.

You gotta do it.

Hey, sta is on the podcast.

I saw that sent some over,
and so I figured, well, you

know, I gotta represent.

Yeah,

no, it's such high quality gear,

isn't it?

I just wish I could afford more of it.

I know, but that's the thing,
it's, it's such high quality.

You pay for the quality.

That's it, you know?

Mm-hmm.

But yeah.

Um,

I lost my trail of thought then,
but yeah, how you can not only look

out for other people, how you can be
the gray man, but how you can also

use that information to project an
image that you're a hard target.

Yeah.

And these are all deterrent
techniques that you can use,

um, and pass down to your

children.

The one that I thought was kind of
interesting, and so you talked about

it, and this is going back a bit.

You've got a YouTube channel,
anyone who's listed, definitely

check out the YouTube channel.

There's short snippets and Sonny puts
himself into some pretty interesting

situations so you can follow along and
kind of see what it looks like, you know,

going down through the downtown east
side or going through crime neighborhoods

in California or around the world,
and sort of what a, uh, person in his

role would be looking out for micd up
and hidden camera and all the rest.

They're, they're fun to watch, but, um.

You know, I remember an older TikTok
before TikTok thought that this sort

of information was too dangerous
for the average viewer to have.

And I think your account
ended up getting pulled.

But, uh, it is, yeah.

Um, the, um, uh, carrying yourself in
such a way, there's that fine line.

So if you're gonna be the gray man and
you're kind of blending in, but you don't

wanna look like the victim, so you're
gonna have, like, you, you can carry

yourself, hold yourself, but you also
don't want to be the guy who's hardey.

Everybody who's coming down the
street like, oh, you mess with me.

I'm gonna be tough.

Because now you flip that script.

Now maybe somebody who wasn't necessarily
interested in, uh, approaching you, maybe

their ego starts kicking in and maybe,
oh, who's this person think they are?

They're on my turf.

They think they're tough.

And you're inviting that to you.

And, uh, you would talk a little bit
about, I remember in the old tiktoks

about, uh, how you make eye contact.

How much, how long you make eye contact
for, how you glance away, not down,

look over just little, little tricks
that a lot of people don't think about.

Yeah.

I There's been studies on it.

Mm. Uh, they used, they took a, a
videotape of just an intersection in

New York of people walking past, and
then they took that to convicted.

Criminals, predators, muggers, rapists,
robbers, violent criminals that

would do that stuff with violence.

And they showed them the video tape
and asked which ones they would wanna

target, who would be their victim types.

And they studied the ones they
picked, and there was patterns.

And it weren't always women,
it was actually women.

Gender wasn't even really considered.

It was how that person carried themself.

And actually where they were
looking was a big thing.

Like looking down at the floor, one
of the most prolific serial killers,

I think it was Ted Bundy, said on
an interview that he would choose

his victims, by the way that she.

Her head tilted as she walked,
like as she was looking at

the ground, she wasn't aware.

It's kind of a submissive trait as well.

Sure.

So I do go into the con eye contact thing.

It's quite a delicate subject.

If someone is targeting you, say you're
about, I used to live in Brixton, London.

It's quite a rough area.

If you're coming up to a group of lads
and they're like chatting and then they

stop talking and one of them's like
looking at you, if you get your head

down and you're like, oh fuck, I don't
want to go through this situation shit.

They can sense that nervousness.

They know, right, this,
this guy can be prayed on.

It's that instinctual thing.

If you are calm, you are.

Fine in that environment, you are
used to it, you're an insider.

You just walk relaxed with your
shoulders back, head up, you glance

eye contact, keep looking ahead.

Even in those situations, I would
actually say hello in a local greeting.

Mm. Because that kind of throw them off.

And if you're throwing them off of their
thought process, then they're thinking,

well, maybe this guy isn't such a victim.

And even if they are gonna attack you,
if they are gonna hurt you, right, then

you're getting that read off 'em earlier.

Mm. Because they're further away.

If you say hello and a smile something,
A smile is very good tactics.

We use that in close protection.

'cause people were like, it throws
'em off for a second and then after

that second you're gone anyway with
your client and they're like, oh, oh.

And then you're gone.

You're not waiting around.

Do you know what I mean?

Sure.

And in this situation,
you're just walking past.

So a nice greeting, a friendly
greeting can throw them off.

But if they are in, they're, they're
gonna attack you, then they're

not gonna react in a right way.

They're gonna not, uh.

React to that greeting or
they're gonna move forward.

And then you've got the read on them
before they're within your personal space.

Mm-hmm.

And then you can use a different

tactic.

So you outline the phases that
predators use, and in your book you

talk about recon targeting stock strike.

Can you kind of touch on those, walk
the listeners through a little bit

about what those stages look like?

Yeah.

So the recon phase is when they're
out there looking for targets, say

like a pickpocket, it's walking
around busy areas, markets, and

they're like scanning basically.

And that could be someone standing up
on the side, on the back wall practicing

situational awareness themselves.

'cause they are either looking
for victims, but they're

also looking for the police.

They don't wanna be caught.

These are the people that
are trying to get valuables

from you, robbery situations.

And then say you're walking past, uh,
a group of pickpockets in a market,

they'll spot something that they
like so they start targeting you.

Um, maybe you've got valuables on display,
maybe you've got your headphones in or

you're distracted looking at paintings
in a. Window then they're targeting you.

Can they get what they want from you?

Do they, do you look like you
could be a danger to them?

Does the risk outweigh the reward?

Mm-hmm.

And then they go into the stalk.

So they gotta move closer.

And they could be gaining
information at that time.

They will be, or they could be,
if it's a violent attack, then the

stalk would be very apparent 'cause
they'll be moving with the purpose

of violence as the intention.

And their body language will show that
if you are aware enough to see it.

Mm-hmm.

And then the strike phase
is the attack itself.

And if you're detecting it at
that point, then you've failed.

Like this is where close
protection we aim not to be.

Um, you're on the back foot, you
don't really know what's going on.

But the point of the predator attack
phases is to show that you have.

All these options and time to see,
uh, to spot a predecessor if you're

looking in the right direction.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm, I'm aiming to give you
the tools to spot them before they

target you.

Now, you do something in your YouTube
videos, you talk about these things in

your book, and you're, you're doing what?

So as a kid, my dad would
take me downtown, we'd play

a game of hawks and pigeons.

I think we talked about that one before.

But the goal was, as a kid, he had to
spot who the hawks were and who the

pigeons were, who the targets were,
who the victims would most likely be,

and who, or the, the, uh, predators.

And uh, that's something
like going through the book.

People can look at this and they can
apply this as they're taking the bus.

They can apply it as they're going on the
sky train, walking downtown, wherever.

Who's the other people who are doing
the similar thing to me and those other.

Hawks who are situationally
aware, they tend to be able

to spot you pretty quick too.

Doing the exact same thing.

Yeah, you do.

And you, you'll find
yourself spotting criminals.

Mm-hmm.

Especially pit pockets and dodgy
people you wanna stay away from.

Mm-hmm.

And you'll find yourself spotting
ex-military blokes, police officers,

even undercover police officers.

Mm-hmm.

'cause they can't turn it off.

Nope.

And yeah.

Other protectors, you know, uh, yeah.

It's easy to spot.

And once you start practicing
these skills, these daily

habits, then yeah, it's good.

It's, it's a fun game to play, especially
if you're on vacation, you wanna spot the

pickpockets, but also a, it's a deterrent
that's always a force field around you.

Mm. Because, uh, it just
shows that you are not.

An easy victim, no one

can get the drop on you.

You put something in the book that
I hadn't, uh, I probably should

have, but I hadn't seen before.

But you write about the rule of stupids.

Yeah.

How much danger do you think
people create in their own lives

without actually knowing it?

And did you wanna talk
about the rule of stupids?

Yeah.

It was, don't do stupid things in stupid
places with stupid people at stupid times.

That's right.

And I wouldn't be right in this book
if I hadn't have thrown all those

rules out Right at the same time.

'cause uh, yeah, you can live, I say
that that's right at the beginning

because we are not gonna live like that.

And I, the purpose is this book is
to, so you can reach further than

you would before, go traveling and
take your family to random places and

have a security blanket and a plan.

But we, uh, the, the, the
bottom line is that this.

We have to live our lives, you know?

Right.

We can't all just stay at home
and never be at risk of anything.

You know, if you really want
to be a hundred percent safe,

then that's what you have to do.

Yeah.

And that's, that's not a

life.

No, no.

You have to accept that there's going
to be some risk, but there are a lot

of ways we can mitigate that risk.

Yeah.

And

the biggest stupid there
is alcohol, but it's also.

The most fun.

Well, that goes to my next question.

I was gonna say, what's one stupid
mistake people make every day

that you think is easy to fix?

Uh,

is when you are walking along,
don't stare at the front floor.

Just clear the route ahead is
a tactic that I talk about.

Just look up ahead of you.

You'll just see things happening and
before you are right in front of them

and it's right on your doorsteps.

This is something I developed when I
worked, I lived in Brixton and stuff.

'cause there, there's groups of youths
on the street and they are scary.

Like they are gang members and
they're defending their turf,

they're selling drugs and you
just have to move around them.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

But you very early on know that you've
got a spot 'em, if you spot 'em way ahead

of you, then you can evade them easily.

You just cross over and walk on
the other side of the street.

And that is a primary defense tool
is prevention and complete avoidance.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, situational awareness,
that's a big part of it, is at

the core of your Es a system, your
enhanced situational awareness.

How did you develop your method
and why does it work when most

situational training doesn't?

I developed it like, again, from all the
different disciplines that I've done.

Um, and it is a lot of it comes
from close protection because

you are, your, your job is to.

Look after someone else in their family,
you, you are their eyes and ears.

Mm. And there's also elements of it
that you can't be a hundred percent

aware a hundred percent of the time.

That's not the job.

No one's expected to do that.

So it's predicting environments and
knowing when you need to turn it up and

switch on, switch on times, I call it,
where you can use different techniques

when you're in a bigger risk area.

But then there's also daily habits,
which are kind of close protection

basics, like sitting tactically in a
restaurant, if you have your family, so

you can see the entranceway you're facing
the door, your back is to the wall.

Uh, you've already registered
where the exit is and you

know how you would get there.

Even if you're sitting in a booth,
make sure you're on the end.

So if anything was to kick off, and I'm
not talking about like an active shooter

every time, it could be two people would.

In a disagreement and fighting each
other, and they're fucking gonna fall

onto where you're baby's sitting.

You know?

And you have to step, you need
to be able to away, be able to

step away from that table and
just block 'em in that situation.

But also, there could be a vehicle running
into the front of the shop that happens

every day in cities, all around the world.

Uh, so you are sitting in a tactical
position, standing in tactical

positions, so you are getting one step
ahead of anything that could happen.

And it's, it's good even if you're
not a family man, you're just working

in a cafe if you're on your laptop.

The tactical position thing's so important
because you can be doing other things.

You can live your life, but if
you're in that position, then you're

automatically got a headstart on
everyone else in that environment.

Mm. If something kicks off,
then you're just gonna.

See it in your peripheral
vision immediately.

Whereas a lot of people sit with
their back to the action all the time.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I, it's a simple thing,
really, but a lot of people

may not think of it.

It, it's funny 'cause I, I know a lot
of it's the old gunfighter thing, right?

The old gunfighter tactic.

You always know where the exit is.

Sit at your back, watch where you
can see, uh, people coming and going.

And I was always raised that way as well.

We were out having Greek
food the other day.

You arrived early.

I'm like, of course.

He's sitting there with his back.

So, so he, I spent the entire time looking
in the reflection of the, uh, the window.

Oh.

Back to see what's happening behind me.

Of course.

Like I had your back, babe.

Oh, I, I know you did.

Of course.

I see the owner Franco
coming up behind me.

Here comes.

But, um, there was a thin line between
paranoia and being that switched on.

Protector.

I, yeah.

And that's where these
daily habits are good.

'cause you don't have to be like on
high alert looking around all the time.

Mm-hmm.

But you're already set up for success
and visualization comes into it as well.

Like if one time you visualize
at a parade, how am I gonna

move my two children out of the
danger zone, offer the X. Mm-hmm.

Just think about it.

Mm-hmm.

Play with them on the bed in your front
room, pick 'em up, throw 'em around a bit.

Just think, uh, I can carry
'em one underarm like this.

That's how I'll move them.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So mental role, role playing ahead
of time, what if, and then you

don't have to worry about thinking
about that if it does happen.

Yeah, exactly.

Got that one downloaded.

It's an actions on, as I say,
how does someone know when the

environment just doesn't feel right?

And they should trust their instinct.

Absence of the normal presence of
the abnormal it's region environment.

It's the chapter in the book, but it's.

Knowing what's going on in, well, it
doesn't fit in, in the environment, and

that, that encompasses a very big subject.

Mm-hmm.

Um, in the surveillance world, when we'd
go and do an operation in a foreign land

or anywhere, it's really a foreign land.

You're never doing it on your
hometown, in your doorstep.

So you'd go and you'd absorb the
environment, you'd establish the

baseline, you'd sit outside in a
cafe or, or in a park, and you just

watch people watch what are they
wearing, what behaviors do they have?

That's normal to the native people there.

Um.

What types of vehicles, you can read all
these things and get a, a feel for what

is the norm in the environment, and then
you adapt yourself to conform to that.

If things do stand out as abnormal, the
norm is actually unaware, so mm-hmm.

The first indicator is someone
that's aware of their surroundings,

check them out because they're
either a good guy or a bad guy.

Mm-hmm.

You know, um, but then there's
different behavioral traits as

well that are clear indicators of
someone, especially for violent acts,

but also pickpockets and things.

Um, a lot of places in the world,
like I talk about a story when I was

in Italy, um, I had done my research
before I went there and I found

that it's Roman and gypsies were a.

Large ethnicity of street
robbers and pickpockets.

Yep.

And they actually set up on me.

And the first read I got on him, there
was a guy standing up against the shopping

center and he was like looking around.

Mm-hmm.

And he was of that ethnicity.

So that, that was the first indicators.

And then watching his behavior more,
then I, I, I learned that he was.

Signaling for someone
else to come up behind me.

And then I ended up turning
around and making him jump.

Yeah,

I was quite proud of that.

It's funny, a uh, another past
podcast guest and he does, uh,

security work, uh, ex British Army.

And, uh, he, uh, I was like, oh,
what kind of security work you doing?

Right?

And he is working at the airports.

He says, well, the racist kind,

but it's, but it's, it's not racism.

People talk about profiling.

There's a difference between
profiling and racism.

And I think people have got it in
their heads lately, in past years that,

well, we can't profile that's racist.

And he said it tongue in cheek because
what they do is profile, right?

Mm-hmm.

People from certain, certain genders
at certain age groups and certain

ethnicities from certain areas.

I have shown that there's gonna be a
higher likelihood of trouble than others.

Why wouldn't you use that information
when you're downloading your, your

baseline and where you're taking a look
at your, uh, uh, your, your profiling of

where, where a threat could come from?

Well, there's a, um, 80-year-old woman
from Italy and she's, are we gonna treat

her the same as we would from somebody
who comes from the profile background?

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's just another small element
of the whole big picture, but it's

how you get a quick read on someone.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we're not so for violence.

We're not gonna be as concerned with
women as we are men, because statistically

they're not gonna be as violent.

Yeah.

There's anomalies out there, but when
we are looking for threats, especially

in the close protection world, we're not
gonna be giving them as much attention.

Especially when you're moving
through a dynamic environment where

there's lots of people moving around.

Mm-hmm.

The first things you're looking for is
someone who's aware, and if they're of

that gender, male age, fighting age, male
is a term that's coined for a reason.

Mm-hmm.

You know, um.

And the behavioral traits
and also the dress.

You can go into subcultures that
criminals use in certain areas.

Obviously we have famous ones, like
we know what, how's angels wear?

Sure.

The biker jackets and that,
uh, we know what the bloods and

cribs wear, the color schemes.

Sure.

Um, we can all have a idea of
like a Latino gangster as well.

So in the UK there is very
niche subcultures between the

gangs that you can pick out.

And yeah, there is some overlap with
general other young people who live

in the area who aren't gangsters.

But when we're considering the safety of
our family and whether we should continue

down the street towards a group of men.

Look dodgy.

Like it doesn't matter what
you think in your own head,

you make your own decisions.

You're not a police
officer, most probably.

Um, so you, you decide this is a, just
a part of the decision making process.

It seems to me when you wrote this
book, you had a very conscious

mind towards, uh, giving the
information without sugarcoating it.

I mean, you'll, there's lots
of humor inside the book.

There's lots of little
things that you can pick out.

I'm make peacock, you gotta let me fly.

Like little things you can.

But, um, and, and all of the stories,
but, um, that you made a conscious

effort just to give the information
without it being varnished under a

layer of, uh, political correctness.

Um.

Am I correct in, uh, in that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I actually went back
and forth with that.

I started the book with a,
a general audience in mind.

I wasn't gonna go down
this male protector route.

Mm. This tactics were still the
same, but it was kind of different.

And then I changed it.

It's like, I don't want to do that.

You know what I mean?

I'm not gonna just do what I think,
like this crowd that might get

angry is gonna be angry about, I
don't actually care what they think.

Do you know what I mean?

True.

And they're not my audience.

I'm not talking to them.

Right.

If they wanna get angry about
it, then go read another book.

Do you know what I mean?

You, I, I've, yeah.

I've stayed true to what I
believe and my own experience.

Yeah.

Well, I also think despite it being called
Man Protect and you give the reasons

why and how you name it, uh, there's
a lot of information here that would

be very, very useful to women as well.

Uh, men are typically looked at as the
projector when push comes to shove.

We revert to our animalistic
very, very human instincts.

But I think there's a lot of information
in here that, uh, that women can look

at this and say, well, okay, I've seen
this and this is what a predator's

looking like, and here's actually what
a, someone who's gonna be acting in a

protector role might be looking at things.

And I, uh, despite its name, I think it's
a valuable resource for men and women.

Yeah,

definitely.

Uh, a lot of the tactics are
the same, and I do look at it

as a, the marketing is from man.

Sure.

Uh, obviously for a man's lens and to
teach those skills onto the women in

their life, their daughters mainly.

Do you know what I mean?

Right.

Um, because they're not my experience.

Why I didn't keep it a broad book
marketing, you need to find your

audience and sell it to that audience.

But I don't think like many women
are gonna read my content anyway.

It's mainly a male audience.

You can see that in all
your Instagram stuff anyway.

Yeah.

But, um, there is something in the
pipeline way down the line that

after this one, that I'd like to
do a CoLab with a female, which

I have some people in mind to do.

A woman protect.

Yeah.

Nice.

And yeah.

Take from, I think I know
what you're talking about too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've re reached out to her.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I will in the future.

Yeah.

Um, because I think it's like
the way men speak to each

other is different, you know?

Sure.

And I didn't want to.

Put it for everyone.

Oh.

Be friendly for everyone.

'cause I wanna speak to geezers like me.

Sure.

And you, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Um, and when I write to women,
I'll have like female voice

as like a main author as well.

Mm-hmm.

Like the tactic tactics.

And also I'll, they have a different
experience when they walk down the street.

Like, have you ever worried about
being raped walking down the street?

Thankfully, no.

No.

Nor have I, it's never even
considered in my realm of possibility.

Right.

You know what I mean?

But for women, that is a daily worry.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And there's different types of
predators that predate on them.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so they have a different experience.

Um, and there's been this whole big
political thing recently about complete

equality, which look we are different.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there's differences.

Um, so yeah, this is for the male
organ audience, and I'd like to

do the, the female, but I'd like
also not to be the man in that

role saying, you need to do this.

Mm-hmm.

It's a, I don't walk that.

Life.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm not that person, so I'll co-author
with someone else to get that perspective.

Smart.

I think that's smart.

Now, you don't glorify
violence, obviously.

You, you, violence is a part of your life.

You do that professionally as a bare
knuckle boxer, and there's certain reasons

why you do it and what you get out of it.

But you make it very, very clear in the
book that, uh, avoiding, uh, not even

being in the situation to begin with,
all the different ways that you can.

Get out of it are far better than
just looking at, oh, here's, here's

your special move you can do, or
here's, here's your special tactic.

But when fighting is unavoidable,
when fighting is unavoidable,

what do people need to understand
about the reality of it?

Hard, fast, aggressive.

That is the mantra that a raw commando
corporal used to drill into us.

If it's already on, then it's already on.

I learned that very early on in my life.

If someone's telling you that they are
gonna hurt you and they are coming towards

you, there's no more talking there.

And yeah, you could turn and run.

There's a lot of situations
where you can't turn and run.

They, there's a switch that needs to
be flipped and that is the animalistic

side that needs to come out.

Um, and to get those skills.

You can't read a book.

And I say this at the first paragraph,
basically of the fight and bat

section, but I do outline what you can
go and learn and the most effective

fight in arts to learn to get to a
capable 'cause like I said earlier,

you only need your go-to moves.

Mm-hmm.

You only need to learn something
that works for you to get you

out of a situation and then pull
up your socks and get moving.

'cause that's also something
about violence that I talk about.

Mm-hmm.

Which most other people won't talk about.

This is real from, from my experience.

There's nothing good that happens from
if you have to defend yourself from

sticking around in that environment.

No.

You need to get out of there
and you need to go home.

'cause I've had times when I've had a
scrap with people and I've gone to the

next bar and they've come into the bar
and no, I'm on my own at that point.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's not a good situation.

Um.

That's when you gotta
use the crazy headbutts

technique and then reassess
What, what did I do wrong?

Okay, now I'm gonna
leave, I'm gonna get out.

What do you think the biggest
misconception people have about

knives and guns in real violence?

Uh,

this is another thing of why I've
gone down this road of teaching

because of the YouTube videos
you see of knife attacks online.

It just, it's ridiculous.

Like the knife is coming at
you at a certain angle and

you're like using a Yeah, yeah.

Karate chop shit.

Like Stevens Toal.

Like come on.

You can't tell me.

You didn't watch Steven
Al when you were younger.

I did, and I believed it for a while.

Oh yeah.

Till I was stabbed up in London.

This didn't work.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, there's a lot of
misconceptions and it comes back to

the detection and situation awareness.

Like when I was in that knife.

Fight.

It wasn't really a knife fight
'cause I didn't have a knife.

It was just one person getting stabbed.

Yeah.

What would you call that then?

Just a stabbing?

Yeah.

Basically.

I didn't know that the blade was being
used until someone in the queue next

to me screamed that he had a knife
and I was underneath him and he was

like coming down to me and luckily the
doorman grabbed him and pulled him off.

Otherwise, I didn't know how
to fight jujitsu at that time.

I was just literally holding
on for dear life, basically.

Um, most people don't know that they're
carrying a knife, so it's monitoring

the hands in the, in the lead up
and all these behavioral traits that

could save your life in those times.

Um, and with the firearms as well.

I do talk about active shooters and
terrorism because this is something that

most people probably haven't thought
about, what they're gonna do, so.

If there's an active shooter in a
shopping mall and you are like the

run hide fight model, I like that.

Mm-hmm.

Say run and hide are exhausted and
you, you know, they're on the other

side of that door and they're coming,
then if you don't have any fighting

experience, what are you gonna do?

But this is, I'm, I'm teaching what
to do and it's all about getting hands

on the weapon as early as possible.

Mm-hmm.

I've watched many, many videos where
people try to tackle, they run mm-hmm.

They've got full aggression, but then
they're thrown off and then that little

bit of distance is all the shooter
need needs to get rounds on target.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it's kind of
controlling the weapon arm.

I don't go into jujitsu moves.

Mm-hmm.

I guide you to where you can
learn those moves, which is

Brazilian jujitsu's a great one.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, for controlling one person's arm with
your two arms, which in a real situation,

you have to control their body as well.

Mm-hmm.

So you have to be in mount
most likely is preferably.

So it's, it's a very.

Intricate thing.

I give like the basic rules.

And when it comes to, like if you
are walking through Borough Market

in London or downtown Vancouver in a
Christmas market, you turn around a

corner and there's a guy with a knife
coming towards you, slashing people.

Mm-hmm.

What are you gonna do?

Well get behind a barrier.

First of all, use a chair as a barrier
and as a weapon in between you.

You know, these sorts of things
that could save your life.

Even a parked car can save your life.

Like that old sketch where you
as a clown is chased around it.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's worked for many people and
they've survived knife attacks

because of that, you know?

Um.

People get tired and they're like, oh.

Then the consequences are,
they have enough time to think

about, are there police coming?

Are there others coming?

Maybe I should skip battle.

Yeah,

buy yourself time.

Put some distance.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And these go-to things are, a lot of
people would think of them, but a lot of

people are, oh, I haven't thought of that.

There's loads of little ni tidbits in that
book that gives you these little options.

Like, oh, I didn't think of that thing.

Mm, I didn't think of that.

But a hard lock-in location is a
close protection tactic that we use

if we can't make it out of an exit.

So you would barricade yourself
in a room, a disabled washroom,

for instance, with your family if
there's an active situation going on.

Mm. And you just wait out in there.

Or if you've used a barricade, a room,
you would put the table there and

then the other table there, and you'd
build a barricade from the wall on the

other side all the way to the door.

Mm. So it cannot be opened.

So it's pushed.

Actually against the
opposing wall, if you can.

Mm-hmm.

Other than just putting a table at the
desk, the desk up against the door, which

could be kicked and pushed out the way.

Could be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Little things like that clown
thing running around the car.

I remember one, um, it was, uh, in, I
think it was Smith and Western Academy.

I was in, uh, Massachusetts doing some
training there, and they're telling a

story of a guy and, uh, he was shot a
couple times, police officer and he's

down on the ground, bad guy comes up
with a gun and he's gonna shoot him

in the head and police officer puts
his hand up in front of the muzzle.

So bad guy turns around to get a
better shot and he puts his hand over

here and he keeps, like the bullet
will go right through the hand.

But the thought process like that
was what he had in the moment.

To be able to try and put something
between him and maybe the person you're

dealing with isn't, uh, it saved his life.

The, um, uh, enough time had passed, um,
blocking it with his Superman hand here.

Yeah.

And, um, but.

Having, um,

that's also not giving up as well,
which is I talk about flight.

You're in the flight to the end.

What a great tactic that guy used.

If all you can do is that and
you do it and it's you survive,

then that's real survival.

Well, you know, a thing or two
about not giving up too, don't you?

Yeah.

Um, and then the knife thing.

So I've carried a knife since I
think kindergarten, maybe grade one.

Uh, I remember when I lost my knife in
grade one and I go to the office and

look for my knife and they go to the
loss and found, they come back with this

big blue plastic thing and no, no, no.

Mine's, mine's a folding knife.

It's black and it looks like this.

I carry it in my pocket.

Like, okay, that's kinda weird.

What are you carrying a knife for?

Over the years, the, uh, idea
of carrying a knife in a public

place is, um, has a different, uh,
connotation behind it and stigma.

Mind you, here in British
Columbia, you can carry a knife.

You, you see the telltale clip on
people's pockets or their waistband, but,

uh, I think some people will carry it.

I, I carry it 'cause it's a tool.

I use it all the time.

Yeah.

People don't realize how
devastating a knife can be.

You're at close range.

At far range.

I'd rather that they have an a
knife on them at close range.

I think I'd rather they
have a gun, honestly.

Because Yeah, the knife is so damn
versatile and it's so devastating.

And if people are carrying these
things for self-protection.

They gotta be prepared for the
aftermath, which is you're probably

gonna kill a person if you have
to use a knife on somebody.

Yeah.

This is a big thing.

Risk request rewards that I've flipped
Flacked on since coming over to Canada.

Mm. I grew up in the UK, obviously,
and the knife culture is like, you

can't carry a knife, you go to prison.

There was a Manisty prison
sentence for a time.

Mm-hmm.

I actually, when I was 15 years old,
I got stop and searched by the police.

I had a knife on me and I had an
knuckle duster that my friend sold

me from when he went to Spain.

Like when I was that age, like
enough duster was cool when I was

like, yeah, I'll buy it off you.

Yeah.

I would've never used it.

I just carried it.

'cause I thought it was cool.

Sure.

Anyway, I spent the night in.

Jail self 'cause of that.

And luckily because I was only
one year away from being 16,

it wasn't on my record forever.

Mm. So I've just got a reprimand and
from then on I didn't carry a knife

until after when I was in the military.

And it's kind of drilled into you.

But when I came and did close
protection over here, the operators

were all carrying a knife.

And for good reason, like if, if
you are in your last stand, then

a knife is a good tool to have.

Especially if they're
carrying a knife as well.

Then having a knife of your own will
give you that distance and hold them off.

'cause it's no longer, like we said
before, one man getting stabbed.

Now it's a knife fight.

Right.

And I've got, it's the history
of knife fighting and like

a great example is fencing.

I know it's an Olympic sport,
but any sort of sword fight in a

knife fighting, it's all about.

Distance and actual footwork.

Mm. Keeping them away.

And if you have your own knife, then they
can no longer just come full steam ahead.

Now you can hold them at bay.

And, uh, I do talk about that as
a man and it's, it goes against

the grain of British culture.

Um, but also I'm talking about
family men, middle-aged men.

Like I'm not gonna get
stopped and searched these

days anyway, like back home.

I will break the law and walk around
London with a knife if I'm with my family.

Sure.

Like the risk is way too high
and like, I'm not a terrorist.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm with you on that one.

I, I bought a

knife specifically 'cause I did my
research when last time I was in the uk.

Okay.

This one can open up but it doesn't lock.

Spider Coat makes one that's UK compliant
and, and all these other countries.

And I don't know what
the ins and outs, I just.

I got onto Google and researched
my, my knife laws, but I'm sure

there'd probably be some, some areas
of grayness in there as well too.

Yeah.

But, uh, what can I have when
I was in Greece, what can I

have in these different places?

But, um, I had to switch up
what it was I was carrying.

But one of the things that I think
that, uh, is highly effective would

just be oc sm capsicum pepper spray.

It's, uh, um, you're not gonna
kill the person with it, and it's

pretty easy to deploy if your, your
children, your significant other,

and you can buy the stuff on Amazon
and have a delivered to your house.

You just can't use it on people.

If you carry it for
people, that's illegal.

If you carry it for dogs.

Perfectly legal.

Yeah.

And I, I do carry it around where I am.

Sure.

I actually was nearly attacked by
a dog when I was with my daughter.

Um, a camp ground off the.

Man, Quam Forest Road there.

And we were walking on a trail just
a little away from our tent and

someone else had a tent, but they
had a dog and it wasn't on a leash.

And this is like, no one comes to
this campground, it's just a site

where you just go, there's no like
Ranger or whatever, park officer.

And the dog came at us and it
was like growling, barking, rah.

And I like picked her up, my
daughter and had it ready.

And then the guy come out, some Mexican
guy, he was like, oh no, it's fine.

I was like, no, it's not fucking fine.

Get hold of your dog.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I've got a dog and it's
on a lead over there.

Right?

Like my daughter was scared.

She was crying.

That's a good application of it.

But also if you are followed at
night, I, yeah, I highly recommend it.

I actually have the bear
spray at my front door.

Mm-hmm.

Like when I'm not there.

Then spray that through
the side of the door.

Close the door again.

Or if someone's breaching the door,
then spraying it, covering that whole

room, and then going in the back room.

Barricading yourself.

That's a good deterrent.

Mm-hmm.

I think it's a great one.

Uh, the thing for the UK is
it's like classed as a firearm,

though we don't have fear.

Yeah.

It's pretty fucking,

yeah.

And of course, like none
of this is legal advice.

I've, I have talked to lawyers
and I have gotten opinions and

everything's gonna be situationally
dependent and what the intent was and

why you had it and whatever it is.

But, uh, carrying OC for people, illegal
carrying OC for dogs, legal, using OC

on dogs, you know, I've talked to, um.

Uh, SBCA and dog handlers, and
they say, you know, if you got a

really aggressive dog, the, the
spray doesn't work that great.

Oh, what does the, uh, a SP baton, the
asp, the um, uh, expandable baton when

dog dock or whatever you're gonna go with
says that, that tends to work pretty good.

Oh, okay.

Um, but on people, oc bear spray tends to
help take some of the fight out of them.

Definitely.

And especially for, for women, you
know, if you're getting followed

someone's approach, you know, even
producing and saying, go back,

they're gonna, oh, fuck, then.

Right?

They're gone.

You know what I mean?

How, who's gonna run through
bear spray unless they really,

really want what they want?

Well, I think, uh, the book, and I'm
like I say I got a little ambitious

when I said that I've already,
I'm gonna have it done by the.

Today I did a speed read through
a number of the chapters.

I'm gonna go back and read
through 'em 'cause I'm finding I'm

getting a lot of value out of it.

Um, it helps, uh, look at things from a
little bit different perspective and some

of the experiences that you bring in.

Um, is there anything else on the book
that we should be talking about or

should we move on to something else?

Uh, yeah.

No, that's, that's about

it really.

Yeah.

That's good.

It, um, it's just a good guide
for any man in the future.

And there'll be times in your life when
you might go on vacation or traveling.

You might move to a new town, you
might get a new job where you are

in charge of sensitive information
or equipment, and then there's parts

that you can just revisit, you know,
and look at it through that lens.

Oh, this is the new threat
that I'm encountering.

The danger is that I'm holding large
amounts of cash or in the corporate

world, sensitive information now
that I might be a target for.

Armed robbery or espionage, which
is one lot people don't think about.

Sure.

Or if you have children later
down the line, then yeah,

it's a good guide to revisit.

And how can people get this book?

Uh, Amazon.

Okay.

Yeah.

When's it available?

Is it already available now?

Yeah.

Well, when this is dropped,
it'll be available.

Awesome.

Excellent.

Okay.

Um, so Amazon Man Protect.

Now your YouTube channel has got some
pretty diverse information on there.

There's a lot of it that's gonna
apply to Man Protect, but you

also talked about a, um, uh, a
trip down on a Ayahuasca retreat.

That was earlier this year.

Yeah.

As a life changing experience, I'd say.

I think that's interesting
as hell are, are you still

involved with Hero Heroic Arts?

Yep.

I'm still an ambassador for them.

Okay.

And, uh, they're doing a
lot of different projects.

They have a Canadian branch now.

Um, and so they have the, the
American started first and the

British, and then the Canadian, and
now there's an Australian branch.

Hmm.

Um, so veterans from all these different
countries are going to retreats in

Peru, Costa Rica doing ayahuasca.

They also do psilocybin, um,
sessions in places as well.

Holland is one of the locations.

Um.

So they're, they're active, very active.

I like to promote them when I do my
fight and always wear 'em on my shorts.

And any media that I do, I promote them.

I'm also gonna be doing guiding myself
like, 'cause I went to a retreat in

deep in the Amazon jungle of Peru and
I really researched where I was going.

There's a book, um, fellowship
of the River that I read.

And this shaman is, I've
gone to the same guy.

They're the Shabo tribe.

So they've been in this region
healing warriors and different

types of people for hundreds and
hundreds, some say thousands of years.

Uh, they used to heal the Inca Warriors
500 years ago, and it's a real kind of.

Raw bones experience.

You can go to Costa Rica and stay
in a five star hotel and have this

experience and that suits some people.

But I wanted to go to the heart
of it where it's been a tradition

that's carried on in a tribe setting.

So this is their tribal grounds.

So you go and stay in like a wooden hut on
stilts in the middle of the Amazon jungle.

Mm. Um, and part of it was the
experience of doing that and venturing

down there on the Amazon River.

It was awesome to go down there.

Even if I didn't do the ayahuasca,
I would've had a great time just

unplugging from reality technology
and all that just for a week.

I was there for just over a week.

So you gave me a book a while
back and I think it was called

How to Change Your Mind.

Is that what it's called?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then he, he's like,
did you read the book?

I'm like, I gotta be honest.

I just haven't got around
to reading this book.

He's like, don't worry about it.

There's a Netflix show you can watch.

It has all the information on it.

Just watch a Netflix show.

Right.

Yeah.

That's much easier.

Yeah.

So I watched that one and, uh,
I gotta tell you, it's, it's,

uh, it's interesting, like I sat
down on the podcast with a, uh.

Uh, JTF two fellow, and, uh, he's
like, you know, I don't like drugs.

I don't do drugs, but you know,
there's this time we did ayahuasca.

And then I, and he goes through
all these different things.

I'm like, hold on a second.

What are you calling drugs?

Right.

There's, yeah, and there's this
stigma around psychedelics and

drugs that I was always raised with.

Talking to yourself, talking with,
uh, other people who've gone this

route or watching the Netflix show.

I don't, maybe it was cold.

How to change your mindset.

It was,

yeah.

Okay.

Who was the author?

Michael Poland.

Michael Poland, that's right.

Yeah.

And, um, it, it's shines a very,
very different light on what I

think most people were raised
to look at these things as.

Yeah.

And I actually call them medicines.

Um, plant medicines.

There's a. There's two kind
of fields of thought here.

There's obviously the medical side,
psychologists, psychiatrists there.

They use MDMA, they use ketamine
therapy, they use psilocybin.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, now they're using ibogaine,
which is the big one in America.

Um, so Ketamine, MDMA, these are kind
of chemicals that are made by man.

Sure.

You know, and then I'm in the other kind
of branch, although there's benefits of

these, they're not really in my interest.

I think there's a, there's a deeper
thing going on with these medicines

that are grown from the earth.

Um, for the mushrooms, for instance,
ayahuasca, ibogaine, which is

from the iboga plant in Africa.

Mm-hmm.

It's used in a tribal
setting for many years.

Um, I think there's a, there's a
deeper thing going on there that I'm,

is ingrained in, like consciousness
and how the universe works.

Okay.

Uh.

Which has a lot of healing benefit.

Um, I think it's the missing
link of humanity to be honest.

There's a lot of recurring messages when
you go and do these psychedelic journeys

and they are good messages for humanity.

Like being at one with nature, taking
from only what you need, not being

greedy, um, is forgiveness is a message
that is recurring that I've had.

And also other friends have rekindled
friendships where after their

psychedelic experiences, like I had a
falling out with a good friend of mine.

I was best man at his wedding.

It was over a business thing.

Uh, and we didn't talk for four years.

And then I had an experience in one of
my psilocybin journeys where I thought

about him and the whole relationship
and how he's like a brother to me.

Mm. And then I made contact again
and they were good friends again.

You know that that breaking
down of my kind of.

My mindset of, oh fuck that, da da dah.

Right?

It

was

because of the psychedelic
experience I had.

Forgiveness is an interesting one.

You know, the Bible preaches that
forgiveness is, forgiveness is divine.

Um, I, I don't know if I found
a workaround for forgiveness.

Uh, I've always had a very difficult
time when someone's done something

to forgive them for what they did.

And like some people, I don't think
deserve forgiveness, but maybe,

and I was told by some I agree with

that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It depends what they've done.

You know, I was told by one
person that, um, I said.

Here's my theory, may maybe forgiveness
doesn't mean you have to forgive the other

person, but it means you forgive yourself
for trusting that person or being put in

a situation and so then you can move on.

And they said, no,
that's just a workaround.

But I'm not, I'm not entirely sure.

I'm not entirely sure.

That's correct.

I, uh, the forgiveness thing I
think is a very interesting one.

Clearly it's been preached
about over the ages.

How did, uh, I guess two part
question so I don't forget it all.

Uh, what would the difference between
calling these a drug or a medicine?

Would it just be intent and how
it's used and how does the using

of that help with forgiveness?

Uh, I would

say it would be the intent.

Yeah.

Um, as a medicine.

People take psychedelics,
like for partying and stuff.

I'm actually not massively against that
because taking mushrooms at a music

festival is way safer than taking MGMA
or ecstasy or these other chemicals

'cause there's no real recorded, um,
negative effects of it on your body.

Mm. Or your mind.

It's actually good for your body and
mind in lots of studies to show this.

Um, although using it recreationally
isn't like really, but when you're

putting it up against, like a lot
of my friends back home, they go

to I BFA and they smash cocaine
and ecstasy for a binge for a week.

Um, and that's just the culture of
when you go to IB for and dance and

party, it's not good for your body.

No, it's not good for your health.

Um, but if you were to go to a music
festival and do mushrooms as opposed

to alcohol or these other hard drugs,
uh, I don't see a problem with that.

Hmm.

That, that would be a problem in terms
of the law and sure things, but I see it

as a, a mental health tool that can, as
a medicine that can help, um, heal the

root of the pain, to be honest, other than
what the other mental health tools we have

today are kind of masking the symptoms.

Yeah.

So I mean, I, I guess the idea behind
it is that you use it and in the future

you don't have to, you work through
something and then you're, you get better.

Or is it something that people have
to do over and over and over again

or, like, I, I know the idea of,
let's say SSRIs antidepressants.

It's, it's a weird cocktail.

Everyone's brain's a little different.

And doctors are, a lot of times
just throwing darts at a dart board

and seeing, oh, did I get close?

Did that get it?

Yeah.

And I, and I know people who are
on antidepressants and how they say

it's fantastic, and then a little
while later, it's a worst thing ever.

And then they have to change
it, but they're always on it.

It doesn't

seem to be a plan.

Like the doctor, oh, things are getting
worse and they just up your dose and like.

Where's the end goal here?

We just live the rest of
our lives on this drug.

Mm. What we see with Ayahuasca,
ibogaine, psilocybin is that people

are getting, they're facing the root
of the problem, particularly with PTSD

and to go on like an ayahuasca journey.

Some people may have a negative
kind of perception of it, but

it's not an easy thing to do.

Like I went there for a week.

I did four ceremonies in that week.

Two ceremonies were enlightening.

I got a lot from it.

I asked a lot of questions and
I got the answers that I really

wanted to hear and healing I, but
then I got one ceremony where it

was really kind of a dark ceremony.

I was facing some things that
happened to me when I was a young.

Younger person and that
that is really healing.

You have to go into that.

And this, that's the scary part and that's
why a lot of people won't really do it.

The first thing is they say they
have to be in control all the time.

That's, that's the one
thing you have to let go.

You have to like, kind of let it happen.

You can't be fighting it.

If there's a vision or something
coming to you, you have to go with it.

Mm. And I'm the kind of
person that I'm interested.

I wanna investigate if this, if there,
if I do see a dark thing coming, mm, I'm

like, okay, what are you, what is this?

And then usually you'll be
shown through a process.

Um, so after that one ceremony, that was
kind of a dark one where I, it was kind of

not say traumatic, but afterwards I felt
in a down state, I was, I wouldn't say

depressed, but I was not happy for a day.

I had a day off the next day and I,
if I'd left it at that, I would've

been like, maybe this isn't for me.

I dunno what I'm doing here.

It kind of showed me my.

The worst parts of my life that
I've decisions that I made.

Okay.

But then at the end, it was shown
that you gotta forgive yourself.

Do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

You can't just dwell on this.

Like it was showing my imperfections.

And then at the end of it, for the
other ceremonies, I was left on a high.

Mm-hmm.

I was.

But you kind of have to face these
things to process it internally.

And I, there's a lot of studies
going on, but the thing with me is

I don't need to know how it works.

I just know that it works.

Okay.

And a lot of other people, it's
a human instinct to be like, we

need to know everything about it.

We need to say, this is the process.

I don't care.

I know it works, so fuck
it, let's go for it.

And the downsides, I don't see

'
em.

Well, how do you titrate something
that's plant-based like that?

Because you don't know if you're
getting something that's, uh.

Super potent or not potent or,
I mean, with the manmade stuff

you can titrate because you know
exactly what they've put into it.

But with this, is it a
bit of a craft shoot?

It is, but these people in
the tribe that I went to do

ayahuasca, that's their trade.

They've done it for hundreds of
years in a lineage passed down.

Um, so some brews, they cook it
on site there every few days.

Some brews are stronger than others.

Mm. It's just known.

So, and also when you go through the
journey, sometimes you'll have a strong

effect off the same amount of liquid.

And the, there's benefits
to having a strong effect.

There's benefits to
having a weaker effect.

Hmm.

Like I had some very strong ones.

The, the troublesome one for
me was quite a strong dose.

They call it a bomber, and they say
when you're there, you should try

and have a bomber at some point,
because that's where you're gonna get.

You know, you've gone too far
at that point, and then you're

trying to find your working dose
where you can work through things.

It's running quite a
medical kind of setting.

There's facilitators who are
like medical professionals who go

through your intentions and they
translate to the charman who is on

this kind of sacred spiritual role.

Mm. So it's kind of a
merging of the two things.

Now.

I believe that's the
way it has to be done.

Obviously pharmaceutical companies and
that are gonna try and get in on it.

Sure.

Yeah.

But the reason I went to Peru is because
there's a respect there with the shamans

and the tribal people that have been doing
it for thousands of years, that there's

a. I, I want to go and get it from them.

Sure.

You know, they've been carrying on
these traditions, um, for a long time.

They've been healing people.

Um, and there's something about that,
there's something about being in the,

the rainforest and being in nature
and the way of life that they have.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that's also something
that I found from psilocybin that

I did in this country on my own,
not with a, a retreat or anything.

Um, like the First Nations native
way of life of taking what you

need and being at one with nature.

That's a recurring message that
is kind of universal to the

experience, which is one that, hmm.

Would be good for humanity to adopt.

'cause the greed of man
is the root of all evil.

Is there a big difference
between psilocybin and ayahuasca?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, there is,

but ayahuasca's stronger.

It's more intense experience.

The.

Visuals, um, uh, and it's longer
psilocybin is, is, it's a different

kind of thing, but you can still
achieve great healing from it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I think there's benefit to being
in this setting where the shamans look

after you, the facilitators are there
to help if you need help, and then

the next day you integrate the whole
experience as a group with the shaman.

You ask questions, they
say, what happened?

What did you see?

How, how did this feel?

Also part of that ceremony is
they take you up during the

night, during the full on effects.

You, the facilitator takes you up to
the shaman and he sings a healing song.

Mm. To whatever intention that
you've given, like a, an ailment on

your body, a mental health thing.

Sure.

Um, and that actually is
the way that it used to be.

'cause these shamans, they drink the
medicine at the same time as you.

So they're drinking it ing
like five times a week for like

holy, their whole life.

Well, it's gotta build up
a tolerance in, I'm sure.

Yeah.

Well, so is that what you're
looking at or would you be a

shaman or a facilitator or what?

Uh, no, no, I wouldn't be a shaman.

They have to study for
years and years and years.

Got it.

It's a very respectful thing.

It's like becoming a black belt in
Juujitsu, that sort of, and you'd have to

sing in.

Yeah.

Is that all?

Yeah, yeah.

No, my role would be a
facilitator, um, where I would

be sober in the ceremony space.

It's pitch black, it's big moloka,
like big circle, heart, massive.

Mm. And the shaman's on one side.

So you need to be brought up
to the shaman and then back.

And sometimes you need to go to
the washroom and they bring you to

the washroom and back in the dark.

Hmm.

And also.

Just be like, uh, just a guy there that
is for veterans is the thing, right?

And having someone that's been
through the experience and is on

their side and if they want to get out
of there, I often get out of there.

Do you know what I mean?

And this also letting yourself go in an
environment, especially for Veterinary's,

been through war is a hard thing, right?

Just to know that someone else is there.

Like, don't worry, no one's turning up.

There's no police gonna come in.

There's no animals for the real animals.

Right, right, right.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Just that security blanket.

So yeah.

And also all the information
leading up to it.

And afterwards, there's certain
protocols you have to follow, like

a strict diet, uh, two weeks before.

And, um, you kind of weeding out.

Technology and stuff in the weeks before
and preparing yourself for the ceremonies.

So if people wanted to learn more about
that, where would you direct them?

Uh, do the Reiki is my Instagram page.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I've actually got quite a
bit of interest for my thing.

I'm doing like a six guy trip down
there and I've pretty much filled that.

But in the years to come,
so I'm gonna be doing.

One a year.

So I'm gonna be going in May, June,
um, with veterans and guiding them.

Uh, I won't, I did do a video about
it on YouTube to promote that and just

talk about my personal experience.

Gotcha.

It's like the first video on my
channel, so if anyone wants to learn

more, the reason I made that video is
to show the facilities of where I go.

Mm-hmm.

Um, the process, I talk about the things
that I went through in the ceremony

is kind of a behind the scenes look so
people can get a bit of more information.

Um, but yeah, my thing isn't
open to, to everyone anyway.

It'll be a small, small knit team
going down and, uh, doing it.

Um, and I won't be videoing
it or nothing like that.

Come on guys.

Come on down.

Be on the YouTube channel.

Totally safe.

Don't worry.

Only us here and then the millions
of people who watching my channel.

Oh man.

Is there anything we should be talking
about that we haven't talked about?

Uh.

I

can't think of anything.

We should pressed record at the
beginning before we, uh, conversation.

Yeah.

We had some interesting conversations

back then, didn't we?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, this year I plan to fight
in the next couple of months.

Um, I've just released the book.

I've got the YouTube channel.

The YouTube is basically teaching
the techniques in the book.

So one of those videos, like
a paragraph in the book?

Yes.

Or a few pages.

And I've got content for years from that.

'cause there's so many, so
much information in the book.

Yeah.

So it's just a visual
reputation representation of.

Showing how the technique will work.

That's the goal.

And I plan to travel around the world
and test my skills in dodgy situations.

I feel like I can't just
fucking live a normal life.

I want a bit of excitement.

Yeah.

I, I drive boats for a living now and
it's gets boring and then the weather

comes in and it's like fucking logs
in there and there's waves and there's

wind and I'm like, yeah, this is it.

Let's go out.

And then they're like, you need that?

Yeah.

And then they're like,
oh no, it's too rough.

We're gonna call it.

I'm like, fuck, come on.

Want some excitement.

You know, I, when on the boat
situation, I, uh, actually sold our,

our boat recently, but had a, uh,
aluminum Hughes craft about 20 feet

long, 18 foot boat, two foot trance.

Nice.

And, um, the people I bought it
from, I was like, well, like,

what do I gotta watch out for?

And they gimme some ideas and
weather conditions and all the

rest, but they said, you know.

You ever see a boat washed up
on a, on a beach somewhere?

I'm like, yeah, the boats will
make it if you can hold on.

Right.

They can withstand rough conditions,
much rougher than you're gonna

ever be able to withstand.

Yeah.

'cause I was concerned about what
the boat could handle or not says.

Um, if you just keep that in the back
of your mind, the the boat will do it.

Yeah.

Hold onto the boat and just go on through.

That'll probably alleviate some of the,
uh, the trepidation that you might have in

some of these gnarly weather conditions.

Yeah, and it did.

I just said, alright, we'll just go slow
if it's going up and down and stuff.

Banging into it.

We'll get there.

The boat will wash up somewhere
if we can hold on, we're good.

Yeah.

Pretty resilient.

You need, uh, you need that excitement in
your life, otherwise you're not living.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I think everyone's like that.

Yeah.

I had a, uh, recent podcast with a fellow
and uh, become an out soon, but he's

building a refuge for the Man on fire
and uh, he says he thinks that's sea.

That's the endangered species
that we should be looking out for.

That people's Oh,

the, uh, jellyfish, is it?

No.

The man on fire?

No, no, the man on fire for the
people who maybe don't fit into the

rule system, who want to go out.

Oh, okay.

He's got a, uh, thousand or two acres
of property and he wants to have

about 30,000 acres and be able to
do, you know, if you wanna get crazy,

get crazy, like, sounds a lot fun.

Interesting.

Okay.

But he's, he's talking about the
spirit of people and how you need

to have that sense of danger,
otherwise you're not living and Yeah.

And uh, I see that thing
coming up more and more again.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's probably my midlife crisis,
getting into bare knuckle books.

Oh, there you go.

Hey, we'll do it while you're

still young enough to do it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I think that's, yeah, that's all good.

Okay, man.

Well, sunny, thank you so much.

It was, uh, amazing having
you on the podcast as usual.

Thanks for having me again.

See you next time.

Yes.