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A note before you listen: Adam shares a personal experience involving grief and suicide that emerged naturally during our conversation. This episode isn't focused on those themes - we're exploring resilience, authenticity, masking, and boundaries - and I'm flagging this so you can choose whether this feels ok for you. Ultimately, this is a wide-ranging conversation between two friends; an episode of tenderness, hope and connection.
A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Before we dive into this week's episode of the podcast I want to just name that we are touching on some challenging topics grief, suicide and themes of loss as well as themes of hopefulness, resilience and how we manage the hard things in life. Welcome to the Henny Flynn podcast, the space for deepening self awareness with profound self compassion. I'm Henny. I write, coach and speak about how exploring our inner world can transform how we experience our outer world, all founded on a bedrock of self love. Settle in and listen and see where the episode takes you.
Henny Flynn:So today I'm going to be joined by a wonderful guest, Adam Lind who has been on the podcast with me a few times before. Adam is the author of Floating Home, a beautiful book that tracks a journey that he and his partner Lauren made, where they hitchhiked from England to India. And when I say tracks the journey, don't mean as in like a travel guide, I just mean in terms of things that they learnt along the way. Actually it goes much wider than that. It talks about experiences that Adam had when he was very young and all the way through to lessons that he's learned from his life living on the canal network of Britain.
Henny Flynn:And it's a beautiful book. I've spoken to so many people who actually don't know Adam and who have read the book and have recommended it to me. It's really wonderful when someone that you know and love creates something and puts it out into the world in this way. So Adam and I are going to talk today about one of these aspects of resilience. So, I mentioned last week that I wanted to do three deep dives about resilience.
Henny Flynn:And when I think about Adam, I think of someone who is resilient, someone who has navigated a lot in their life and really works hard to understand themselves, to seek help where it's useful and to practise the art of compassion toward others and very much as well toward himself. And he also is human and recognises, you know, how challenging that can be. So, I spoke to him about these episodes and you know, this idea that I had, and we decided that this particular topic would be the one to focus on. So the piece from the episode that sparked these three deep dives was all about resilience can take many forms. And at the end of that episode, I said, and I'm gonna quote from it to give you the context of mine and Adam's conversation today.
Henny Flynn:I said, so if you find that you are masking your true self or feeling you're needing to perform, remember this may be an old pattern you learnt when you were very small, something, some very clever part of you realised could keep you safe at a time when your resources were limited simply by the fact of being a child in an adult world. And so you gathered evidence to support that strategy and prove its efficacy and understandably kept playing it out and playing it out until maybe it's begun to feel outdated as though it's no longer the wisest path for you as you are today. So, that's the context. Adam's going to be here in a few minutes, but before he joins, I just wanted to speak a little bit about that term masking. Now often in sort of current use of that term, we can think of it as specifically relating to neurodivergence or to the challenges that so many of us can face when we're operating in a, you know, neurotypical environment.
Henny Flynn:But the root of that word is actually broader and so today I'm not specifically talking about neurodivergence that might come up, but my use of the word is actually in its broader sense and how often we can see it playing out where we don't feel safe enough to be our true selves, know, often it shows up in the workplace, you know, colleagues or, you know, leadership team or, you know, anybody sort of like through the organisation might hide their true emotions and perhaps present a facade of confidence and resilience, because that's what we're talking about, even when they're privately grappling with significant challenges or doubts. And the point about masking is that it can be exhausting. It's also something that is a very kind of defensive practice. And if we find ourselves having to mask in many aspects of our lives, you know, for, you know, maybe in all of our interactions and, you know, certainly, you know, people who experience neurodivergence, know can sort of speak about this exhaustion that can come from having to show up in a way that doesn't feel completely true for themselves because of fear of being rejected or excluded in some way and you know as humans like we have this this really innate desire to belong and if we've learned somewhere along the line that you know us being ourselves isn't enough or is too much then that can lead to us masking some of our behaviours and, you know, and again, I'm using that in the broadest sense because I think it's something that's actually very human.
Henny Flynn:Many of us experience this One of the challenges with masking is that it can leave us unable to identify how we actually feel because we've become so accustomed to adopting this way of presenting ourselves. The, you know, we can sort of see it in kind of psychological terms as an adaptation strategy. It really makes sense. It's absolutely a valid response to a world that can feel complex. And then there are two other terms that are going, I'm sure will come up while we're talking.
Henny Flynn:One is about sort of performative behaviours. So, these are much more voluntary and they can be contextual. And it's a way of kind of managing like how we show up in the world. It might not always feel as though it's a choice, but it is often much more sort of consciously calculated. I don't say that in a kind of like cold calculation sort of way, but in terms of like, oh, this is what I need to do in order to feel okay.
Henny Flynn:Whereas masking can feel much more instinctive, much more almost like a kind of involuntary response to the world. Whereas performative behaviors are more conscious, we're more aware of it at some level. And it tends to be situation specific, so we might feel safe enough to be ourselves in some environments, but the need to perform in others. And again, in the workplace, this shows up a lot, you know. And I think you know in our world of social media it can be very present because there's so much risk attached to what happens if we don't show up as ourselves, if we don't perform to some degree and kind of like you know hide some parts of us and of course you know we're all doing that all the time you know not we're not all exposing our kind of darkest, deepest inner thoughts in every environment that we're in.
Henny Flynn:But there is all about the degrees of this. And then the other term, which I suspect will come up, I mean, might be wrong about this, so let's see, is about compartmentalization or compartmentalizing, which is about temporarily setting something aside. And it's a kind of defence mechanism that we can have when something is really, really challenging. We can temporarily put it to one side in order to really access our resilience. And, know, there's lots of research around this that shows that even really resilient individuals may increase their use of compartmentalization to maintain their mood and to function effectively as a response to high stress.
Henny Flynn:And in a way it sort of gives us like a kind of time out and of the three strategies, it's the one that you know, of can support kind of focus, you know, emotional regulation, professional balance. And, you know, when we're using it intentionally, it can be, know, it's not necessarily a negative thing to compartmentalise and just to put things gently to one side, but it's about the conscious use of that. And if it becomes rigid or unconscious, then it can lead to denial or to repression and emotional distance. So, you know, as with all of these things, like there's always a nuance and there's always a kind of like a spectrum of the behaviour where it might be it might feel like a good self defence strategy and then if it's overused or used in an unconscious way it can shift into something which actually becomes negatively impacting on us. So I'm just going to briefly pause the recording and welcome Adam into the space and then we will return and see where this conversation takes us.
Henny Flynn:So as I thought might happen, Adam and I have just dived straight into the conversation. But anyway, Adam, hello. Hi.
Adam Lind:What an honor to be back.
Henny Flynn:Oh. I've done I've already done a bit of an intro, actually, and just talked a little bit about what we're going to talk about in the context of resilience. But So the thing that I was just about to say, which is the reason why I just thought press record, was I've realized I have learned somewhere along the way the art of compartmentalizing. So that journey that I had to do this weekend and like, it didn't kind of work out. I realised that even when I was driving back here, that I could see my brain starting to sort of put everything into its into order.
Henny Flynn:So it didn't feel gut wrenching. It didn't feel, you know, every now and again, would just go like, oh, for God's sake, because it was my mistake that led to what happened. But also then kind of laughing about it, and I recognise that is a resilience strategy, you know, this thing. Sent So, you that voice note about like, just this whole concept of resilience and the complexity that there can be with it. And yeah, just maybe to sort of like, what are your thoughts even just about that term?
Henny Flynn:What does that term like raise for you?
Adam Lind:Yeah, well, I feel like I've also been faced with the task of resilience this week a little bit, of course, as universe always works in this way. And not too well, yeah, it's a little bit heavy, actually, but let's just go for it. So I found out last Wednesday that a guy that my wife Lauren and I know took his own life last week.
Henny Flynn:Oh, good.
Adam Lind:And what was so I mean, yeah, we can unpack it. But in the context of resilience and with myself, I had a very strange reaction where, one, I felt like I needed to or wanted to move straight into a caring role for Lauren because she understandably was very upset. But I also don't know if it's because I've experienced just so much death in my life. It's built a resilience where I didn't cry. And I'm a crier, like, you know, every time I go on a call with you, I just hear you say hello and I can start crying.
Adam Lind:But I found it really interesting that I didn't cry. And I feel like I've been crying a lot less. And then I was questioning, am I numb? Am I emotionless? But actually, I think it is a level of resilience and, like you say, the compartmentalizing of, you know, the circle of life and becoming, I guess, a bit more resilient to death and, unfortunately, suicide because it's it's not the first person I know that's that's taken their own life.
Adam Lind:So, yeah, in the interest of resilience, I thought, does this mean resilience is just experiencing something again and again and again till it becomes a practice? Or is resilience, you know, a better understanding of your internal self so you can, like, rather than react, respond to what's going on? But I've been really interested by my own response to this situation, if that makes sense.
Henny Flynn:It really does. It's funny. You'll hear when you hear the introduction that I've done, one of the things that I said is I think that you have, through the experiences in your life, like had lots of encounters with resilience and probably in the different forms that it can show up. Because I think before I say anything else, I just want to send like this just this love out to everybody that knew your friend and to your friend, you know, like this It's such a there's something so kind of poignant, I think, when you said that A, you've experienced so much death in your life, but also that this experience of knowing loved ones who have taken their own lives is not unusual now. Like we know that suicide is more common and I kind of, I'm really aware of the like the tenderness when we're talking about resilience and then this idea of suicide emerges as well.
Henny Flynn:Like that feels, I just want to kind of wrap that in the most enormous amount of love and just notice the complexity around those two concepts sitting side by side as well.
Adam Lind:For sure. And it's also really I mean, a lot of the work I like to do is to encourage people to speak and be vulnerable, and particularly men. And Mike, the amazing guy that's taken his own life is it's one of these things, particularly what I find in the men's space, if is you could have lined up a 100 people I know in front of me, he's the last I would have imagined. Like, life and soul of the party, creative, like, always painting or making or doing woodwork. Or we went to a a gig recently and, like, no one was dancing, but he's on the dance floor just, like, joking around, playing around with these hats.
Adam Lind:Like, just the most fun loving guy. And it's all annoyingly, it tends to be these people that are sometimes, like, well, without realizing, maybe suppressing something. I don't wanna speculate. I don't know. But that's where the shock comes from.
Adam Lind:And and it's actually really encouraged me again to want to maybe promote is the wrong word, but provide this message and idea of please, like, just speak, like, particularly men, not just men, but, like, you know, if we look at the rates in The UK, it is more common in men, think, because they find it harder to talk. But also like there's been a beautiful unity of like community that have been brought together through it and then also it's really inspired me to live. Like you know I think that's what I've found the resilience through my life when it comes to deaf is you know obviously we're going so deep straight away but all of this is impermanent, right? Life is fleeting if we look at it in the concept of timelines and like we really should be living it, you know, however that may look. And that doesn't mean that we have to ignore daily tasks and complexities and all these things.
Adam Lind:But within that, how can we find even within the mundane, like, the sacredness to live and to be resilient in the face of adversity and yeah. You know, like, really enjoy the time that we basically get on this planet?
Henny Flynn:I I mean, yeah. Yes. Kind of amen to that, to all Yeah. Of Amen. Or a or r when or a woman, like, whatever we wanna say.
Henny Flynn:I think there is something in what you are saying which me taps into this thing about performance or those performative behaviours. I know you and I have talked about this before. I recognise definitely that kind of performative thing has been a strategy that I have used from being a small child. I mean, it was, I learnt that if I was feeling uncomfortable, unsure, lonely, a bit lost in a situation, you know, or even feeling like I'd been like abandoned by the people around me, that if I put on this and I, you know, you can call it masking, but I think in sort of psychological terms, it's more about performative. That would be the more accurate term.
Henny Flynn:You can put on this kind of performance and show up as though you're okay. And for most of my life, I think I believe that was resilience and I think there is something resilient about it. But when you look deeper as to like, well, what's the cause for why you need to put this front on, this performance on? Like what's sitting underneath that, the kind of like the fear or the fragility, the hurt, the pain, whatever it might be. Actually, if we can work at that level, then it means that the performance isn't so needed or that the behaviours can be more authentically true to ourselves and that like true self expression we know is one of our most important psychological markers of positive mental health.
Henny Flynn:So you know, sort of time and also like the other thing about performative stuff is that often it's calculated. It's like, you know, I'm going into this situation. I know I'm going to feel uncertain and so I'm going to pretend that I feel all right. Oh my God, just doing that just like, oh, that literally a little bit of my heart just broke off. The little girl and the adolescent the woman in my 20s and my 30s who felt that she had to do that.
Henny Flynn:I think I said to you, I'm really exposing something here. At the end of last year, I really had this it was like the last bit of it just fell away. The last bit of that need to ever kind of like protect myself in that way just fell away. And you know, I mean maybe there's more of it, but like the last bit that I was aware was there, know fell away. Yes.
Henny Flynn:Anyway, I don't know. Unpack that.
Adam Lind:Yeah. Well, I I think I mean, I've got so many thoughts going on in my head. I think the performative nature in comparison to resilience is so interesting because for me, like, the performative stuff kinda comes in two senses. There's one part of me that I feel like is actually really good at not being performative, and that's in the lens of let's I feel like pedestalling is really interesting. So you maybe can relate to this as well.
Adam Lind:But, like, I, you know, have written a book and I talk about all these things and sometimes people pedestal me. And, actually, I've said this to you before, but when I first met you and was so inspired by you, I realized I definitely pedestaled you. And I actually realized, you know, you became my coach and I but obviously we're very good friends and I realized how unhealthy that was because it didn't allow for me to believe that you had flaws which is like such an expectation on you. And if there was a moment obviously where like you, I don't know, got a moment of anger or something, it was like, oh, no. Like, you know, it can when you pedestal someone, they have one little crack, which that crack basically is being human, then, like, you know, the facade is kind of broken.
Adam Lind:Yeah. And it actually happened to me. I gave a talk on Sunday at a literary festival that was so amazing, which we can talk about another time. But I was on stage with these two amazing authors and, like, the tent was packed, which was great because when you do a talk at an event and there's lots of stages, you know, if anyone's gonna be there. And I could feel myself, like, you know, sharing this, let's call it, like, wisdom or notions about life and how I really think we can, like, be better humans and connecting and slow down and making the mundane sacred.
Adam Lind:And I just had this moment where I could feel the crowder in the palm of my hands looking at me like I was this god. And I just felt this moment and I went, I just need to stop myself, guys, and let you know I barely do any of the stuff I'm saying right now. Like, I have moments I do and then I have weeks, sometimes months where I absolutely do not. So please don't look at me and be like, oh, I wish I was more like this guy. Like, if I only implemented half of the things I know would make me live like a better life, gosh, I would be like, you know, the person I'm referring to.
Adam Lind:This isn't me as the guru saying, please do what I do. It's me kind of telling myself. Yeah. Particularly around like the slow living stuff because, you know, I can talk about it in practice. But I said to them, I'm here on a stage at a festival.
Adam Lind:I've hosted three events this week talking about the same stuff. Like, when is the time I'm actually doing the slowness compared to talking about the slowness? So in that level of being performative, I think I've kind of got it a little bit down because I, like yourself, I will always lead a vulnerability. If someone says, how are you? I won't lie.
Adam Lind:Getting on here and you saying about the resilience of me going straight into suicide chat, like no masking. But then I think the other side of performative that I'm trying to work on more is I love this idea when people say, like, who are you? When you're on your own, who are you compared to when you're out with other people? Because I actually find some of my most, I guess, toxic habits and traits are when I'm alone. Like the me that wants to be reading and journaling and meditating can often be scrolling and just doing all the things that actually don't serve me.
Adam Lind:And my, I think, new journey of what I'm trying to do with resilience is become resilient in the face of being alone. Because, yeah, I actually think I'm one of probably the worst versions of myself when I'm on my own. I just tap into these, like, 16 year old boy habits of just like I don't want to demonize these things, but just watching crap on YouTube, sometimes smoking weed, eating cookies, scrolling through TikTok, like, all the stuff that I know is so bad for me. And yet when I'm around people or having conversations like this or on a stage or making videos or with my wife or with my friends, I fall into this part of me that I love. So that's my new kind of journey with resilience and being performative is actually when no one's around and I'm with myself.
Henny Flynn:Do you know, Adam, oh, I think you've just I think you've just opened up something that is so so maybe universal that for so many of us actually, even if we love our own company or even if we have learned to love our own company, Actually, it's when we are, you know, me, myself and I, that those kind of other needs can emerge, perhaps because we are being truly our most authentic. So maybe because all of our sort of social conditioning maybe has kind of fallen away. And so the small child that, I don't know, learnt that sort of food was a place of comfort, you know, that part emerges. And so then it's like, oh, really, really deep practice of self compassion and attending to those parts rather than doing the other thing, which, you know, I'm very human criticize ourselves for doing those things. So I, last week I took myself away.
Henny Flynn:I go away every year in the van on my own. I I quite often go to the same place because it's really beautiful. It's down in South Devon. I love the beach and walk the coastal path and, you know, oh, like, you know, it's so Instagrammable. Like, it's so gorgeous.
Henny Flynn:And when I arrived, it was, like, 30 to 40 mile an hour gusts of wind. It's raining, and that's all fine. That's all part of it. I'm completely happy with that. But what it meant was that I had to park the van at this funny angle in the spot that I had so that the roof wouldn't blow off if I opened it and also so I could still see the sea from one of the windows.
Henny Flynn:And then it meant I couldn't put the awning up. So I couldn't do the stuff that I was so curious about this the whole time I was there. And then I couldn't hang my fairy lights up and I couldn't put my little Tibetan prayer flags up, which I always really like. And I couldn't, like, get my kitchen all set up in the way and then I was like, oh, this is so curious. Like, I couldn't present to these strangers in this site, this is the kind of person that I am.
Henny Flynn:Like, this ain't my first rodeo. I know how to like, it was so And in the end, because the weather was so vile, and also I became so kind of interested in this, like, this non performance of that some part of me was like desperate to do. I ended up just like really being inside the van and anyone walking past wouldn't have known anyone was staying there because it was just in the van and it was bliss. I had such a wonderful time. I did some work and I took my Shakti mat, thank you very much.
Henny Flynn:I used it, it was just brilliant. I did a couple of walks, I lay in the sand dunes, I did all these lovely things. And the other thing that I did was I watched telly because I had my laptop and I was just like, I just really feel like watching a film. So I'm gonna watch a film and have a bowl of crisps and this is like, this is okay. And I think on previous trips, I would not have allowed myself to do that because the performance I was with myself, I was like, it was almost like I was performing to myself of and this is how one does things.
Henny Flynn:So I'm really curious about the interplay between those two things. And I think like everything is on a spectrum. It's like, I don't, you know, I'm not a like my friends and family take the piss out of me and call me Zan Hen, you know, and then when I like say something, like I swear or I, you know, or I get irritated and it's like, oh my god, you're like, so zen. Of course, you know, at times I am, but at times I'm times I'm a crisp eating TV watcher and that is also okay.
Adam Lind:Yeah, I wonder then, so I guess what you're potentially alluding to is it's not the action, it's the feeling we have about the action. So then I guess my question to myself is, does it matter that when I'm alone, I'm scrolling on TikTok and eating cookies? Is the issue actually that I'm condemning myself for doing that, which is a real paradox for me. I guess, like, everything, it's about balance and, you know, I guess for me, it's like I know I feel better if I read or write or draw than when I do those things. And also with such habitual creatures that I feel like, I guess, for myself often, I'm so on when I'm out in the world and I'm having these conversations that when I am alone, I just wanna do something mind numbing.
Adam Lind:I still definitely condemn myself for doing that. And I guess I wonder why. I guess because I guess there's an inherent nature in me to always want to be learning. And I feel like I learn through reading and I learn through creating and I learn a lot less when I'm doing, like, mind numbing activities. But this is kind of what I mean, I guess.
Adam Lind:I I view you maybe as someone that does stuff like that so rarely that when you do it, it's a treat. Whereas I was thinking when you said about the people you wanted to put your Tibetan flags up in like a performance nature. If I'm gonna get really vulnerable like and this is so embarrassing to admit. But like sometimes I'll be sitting on top of the boat like scrolling and if I see someone coming along, I'll put the phone down like under my leg and like look up to the sky so when they walk past these people I don't know. They're like, look at that present man just looking into the distance.
Henny Flynn:Love that. I love that. So
Adam Lind:I do that on, like, a regular basis. Like, I'm not I'm not someone that sits on my phone when other people are watching. And it's like, I've noticed another thing. Like, I hope Lauren won't mind me admitting this, but we can both do it. Like, if if we're on our phone and one of us ends up taking a video, quickly hide the phone.
Adam Lind:Like, I don't want anyone online to know I'm sitting on my sofa on the phone. I must be staring out the window drinking a cup of tea. You know? And it's like and what was he saying? It's like the shame attached around just doing these activities.
Henny Flynn:I do you know? I'm I'm laughing in recognition as well because, like so Anton will be, I'll be sitting on the deck and I will have been like gazing at the view. And then, you know, I don't know that like that unconscious, it's the, I think it's so much of this is about conscious and unconscious. That, and really that does like feed right into the whole concept of resilience, I think, and the tools that we use to support ourselves with being resilient. But, you know, I'll be sitting on the deck, like, you know, gazing at the view.
Henny Flynn:And then, like, I'll look at my phone, and then Anton will come up the slope from the house. I will literally put the phone away. Because I don't want Anton to know that I've been, like, you know, looking at TikTok. Although I say looking at TikTok, I've literally never looked at TikTok in my life. So I don't know why I
Adam Lind:say that. Instagram TikTok is a
Henny Flynn:bit TikTok. The same thing. But,
Adam Lind:yeah, it's so funny you've had that. I've never said that out loud. I wonder how many people have the same experience as I
Henny Flynn:bet so many of us do. And it's in some ways, you know, it's a that is also a kind of defensive mechanism, of course, you know, to like we don't want people to think something bad, inverted commas, about us. Also, is it part of that internal mechanism of like, hang on a minute, have, this has been going on a bit long and here's your cue to not do it. It's the disruptor that comes in and makes us realize, oh shit, I have actually been sitting on my phone for, you know, twenty minutes.
Adam Lind:Yeah. Well, it's where's the shame coming from? Is it the other person thinking we're doing something bad or is it that we actually think we're doing something bad and that person is like, yeah, been the been the breaker of the state to actually ask ourselves that question. But then, like you say, it's what is bad? Yeah.
Adam Lind:And if I was enjoying sitting on top of the boat, just scrolling for ten minutes, twenty minutes, like, where's the where's the concept of it being bad coming from? Is it the outer world saying that scrolling is inherently bad, which I guess to a degree I believe it is? Is it that we feel that we should be doing something more productive, but then we can unpack, well, you know, what about being anti productive? Just relaxing and enjoying. It's such a paradoxal thing because if I was sitting up there coloring in a coloring book, right, you could argue that's also not productive.
Adam Lind:Like, I'm not learning. I'm just coloring. So where do we draw the lines of what is better or worse, you know, to I've use the
Henny Flynn:I've got two things that they've one from one from my mom and one from my dad. Two things that I experienced. One was when I was pregnant with our boy and she was, I don't know, was with a group of women who were all giving lots of advice and whatever. And my said, the only piece of advice I'm ever going to give you is let them be bored. Let them be bored.
Henny Flynn:And she was a teacher. And so she really understood the power of creativity and that boredom can be the wellspring of that. And I really held that actually, we really I think, we would probably say mean about things like, you know, PlayStation and internet and all of that kind of stuff, but not because of the so many of the kind of arguments that are around now. And I know that the government has just said about banning social media for under 16s. But for us, it was well, for me, it was more about be bored.
Henny Flynn:Be bored because then you might play, you know, make some music or you might do some art or you might, you know, go out on your skateboard. Like, it's like that, that's so much better. So, I think there's I've got that sort of thought in my head. And then the other thought I have is how cross my dad was when I was like a young teen and I would just sit on this really narrow, I don't know how I sat on it, really narrow windowsill in my bedroom and read for hours. I mean, like, could read for a day, like just totally immersed in another world.
Henny Flynn:And my mom really supported it. And my dad, it just drove him mad because he thought it wasn't productive.
Adam Lind:Wow.
Henny Flynn:So, is that any different? So, for him, me being in a book was the equivalent of, you know, a kid being in a phone.
Adam Lind:Do you know what he believed you should have been doing that would have been productive?
Henny Flynn:I don't know, maybe a chore around the house or yeah, you know.
Adam Lind:That's so interesting.
Henny Flynn:Yeah, I don't know, out, he probably wanted me to be out. Like, yeah, Yeah. He was he was a big, like, rugby player and cricketer and stuff. So, yeah, it probably didn't
Adam Lind:Yeah. With the boredom part, similar, I guess, to yourself who goes away every year, as you know, I have a new ritual which is coming to your house, your land, every year which you obviously so beautifully name your land the land of no requirements. And obviously I spend three days in the hut and I am stripped of the phone and the laptop and all these things. Essentially, allow myself well, what I always imagine will be to be bored for three days with no kind of outside stimulation really other than obviously, like, the odd interaction with you. And I guess maybe the reason I'm condemning myself so much for the phone and the distraction is because I feel genuinely, like, my most happiest and most at peace when I'm in that space.
Adam Lind:So I guess I know really what my soul and my heart craves. Like, in those three days, I start to write poetry again. I start to observe nature again. I read and I do all the things. And I I always feel at the end where I never wanna pick the phone up again.
Adam Lind:And I never finish an hour of scrolling being I can't wait to scroll again. And I think I guess that's also why we've chosen to put this retreat on together and I guess how much we value. It's like it's it's both can exist at once. Right? Yes.
Adam Lind:It's great to let yourself eat crisps and scroll. But the fact of how good I feel when I come to your land and the fact we wanted to put this retreat on that kind of encourages people again to have no requirements and strip away also shows how important that is as well and how much people crave it because anyone I've spoke to about it, it says, oh, that sounds like an absolute dream. Whereas I said, oh, do you want to come over and scroll all day? I don't think it would sound like a dream.
Henny Flynn:That's so brilliant. That's so that's so brilliant. What a brilliant question, actually, to kind of ask. And also, what you said about that, I never get to the end of an hour of scrolling and think, can't wait to scroll again. But you're so right that when you go out into nature, you spend time in the land.
Henny Flynn:Like I always have this feeling when we do, there's a walk that we're going to do, we're going to take everybody on the retreat, you know, all being well. We'll all be doing that walk. Have a kind of like, we lived in Egypt for a while and that phrase inshallah was like really present there. It's just like with the grace of God, like we will be doing this walk. And anyway, lost my train.
Henny Flynn:I thought Going on that walk, as we come to the end of it, I have this bit of disappointment in me every time I do it. I'm like, oh, it's nearly over. Like this, like, oh, oh, Well, I'll just go do the walk again another day. And then I'm like and then I'm all right. The disappointment's gone.
Henny Flynn:I, speak to that little part that just, really loves being out there. You're so right. I do not get that feeling when I'm, you know, sitting, like watching a film. For me, it tends to be TV. I'm a child of the 70s.
Henny Flynn:We tend to be addicted to TV rather than phones to such a degree, I think. Although probably both. When I've spoken to people about the retreat as well, Also kind of getting messages from people saying because it's not until October but like messages saying I literally cannot wait for that time because of knowing this and even just sort of feeling into it in my body it's this like shoulders back and down and like a chest opening and gosh you know the feeling of being in a space where actually so little is required of you that you can lay down those strategies that we use to support ourselves and defend ourselves against the world you know as a way of being resilient. We're all bombarded by so much stuff. We're talking about phones, like phones are the source of so much of the stuff that bombards us.
Henny Flynn:News and negative stuff. That I think, you know, practice of compartmentalising is something that we all sort of often have to do because we can't hold the pain of the world within us all the time because we collapse. So we have to compartmentalise. The risk with that is if it becomes unconscious or becomes rigid, then it can lead to denial and suppression and a disconnection with our emotional state. So there's always a kind of balance with that.
Henny Flynn:But the sense of sort of being in a space where we can lay all that down is just so delicious for our bodies. It's obviously something that as humans need that. We need that space.
Adam Lind:Yeah. And it's so rare we give it to ourselves. Like every time I leave yours for three days, just the feeling I have is like something I want to bottle and hold on to and also something I want everyone to experience, which is I guess why we birthed the idea but yeah there's definitely like a deep craving it got me thinking about like I'm trying to how would you define resilience
Henny Flynn:So, we like that question and I really deliberately didn't look up a definition of it before talking because I kind of had a feeling that I like talking about things at the edges rather than kind of rigid like this is what something is. I think when I was working in the corporate world I saw resilience as just being literally another stick to beat people with. It was a way of saying, you know, you're not tough enough, you need to man up, you need to grow a pair, you know this like it was a really like hard edged very kind of masculine sort of you know and that I don't mean it in kind of that in a gender term but you know in a sort of a very kind of like tough thing. Whereas actually I think resilience is much more nuanced than that. I think people display the most astonishing resilience in their lives, sometimes just in getting up in the morning.
Henny Flynn:I think so in terms of my actual definition of it, I just need to listen in to myself for a little moment. So what came up was resilience is loving ourselves sufficiently that we're able to show up in the world.
Adam Lind:Yeah. Because I really hadn't asked myself the question prior to this, and then I started to think I was thinking about if if I why when I'm at yours and you've taken my phone and laptop away, I'm so content I say take it away as if you're like a taskmaster like I've given it to you willingly may I add
Henny Flynn:or you beat me exactly with a ritual
Adam Lind:willingly giving it to you and I can stare out the window for so long. And I live on a canal boat. Right? Like, right now, when I look out the window, I can see the most beautiful trees in nature. Yet when I am here, because the phone's close to me, like, when we get off this call, I have the choice to stare out the window for all.
Adam Lind:I have the choice to pick up the phone. And then I was like, oh, if I don't pick up the phone, is that me showing resilience? But then I was like, oh, no. Maybe that's discipline. So I then just got was kinda getting confused between this merge of, like, resilience and discipline and if they interconnect.
Adam Lind:And I guess what you're saying, like, sometimes it's just getting up in the morning or or having the ability to love yourself sufficiently, I guess. Would you say there isn't a link between, like, resilience and discipline or am I merging two worlds that aren't really linked
Henny Flynn:I think I think resilience and discipline intersect where we have a goal that we want to reach and so we establish a new So maybe know, we establish a new behaviour. There's discipline in being in committing to that and the consistency of that and resilience comes in when we don't want to do it. You know, when we're kind of like, so resilience is the like, no, no, it's okay, we're going to keep going. I think that's the sort of resilience with love. We're going to keep going.
Henny Flynn:But I think this sort of concept of resilience is loving ourselves sufficiently to X. I think that brings this essence of compassionate resilience, which in so in one of my books like I used to hate this term resilience I really I literally thought it was bullshit I was just like it's I didn't get it It just annoyed me. And, yeah, I saw it misused so much. It just like that my kind of like my fairness value was really butted up against. But in one of my books, the heart of change, actually I've done a whole chapter on compassionate resilience.
Henny Flynn:Like this idea of like how can resilience be this soft edged thing? And I think it is when it's with love. If there's something that you want to do for yourself and discipline is part of the practice like you know discipline is important in our lives then compassionate resilience can be the thing that keeps us going with it. Because it is the thing that stops us beating ourselves up about the not wanting to do it, or finding excuses and doing something else instead, you know, compassionate resilience can be the thing that helps us navigate that, I think, maybe.
Adam Lind:Yeah, No, I hear you. It makes a lot of sense. And the more you talk, it does make me I can see now I can understand the link between the resilience and the discipline. But discipline's such a harsh word, but actually, in this way, it feels a lot softer. Like, all these words, even resilience, discipline, feel really, like, harsh words.
Adam Lind:But there's something that I think when we use in a compassionate and soft way, they can actually be, like, the most enlightening and helpful.
Henny Flynn:Because the other word that is sort of coming up for me as I listen to you and sort of this like what you know the relationship between discipline and resilience is also discernment and I think this really speaks to these practices like sort of masking, you know, in fullest. Gave in the intro, I gave a bit of a kind of definition of what masking is and you know often these days we use it in terms of neurodivergence but actually like masking has a broader sense as well and people often mask when they're in environments where they don't feel safe and also that performative thing it's much more conscious behaviour and contextual behaviour but we do it because we don't feel safe. In some way, like some small way or big way. The sense of discernment is what enables us to understand like what is actually happening here and what is driving my behaviour and to that end is that the behaviour that I want to employ right now? Do I need to have this performative or kind of masking attitude or actually can I be safe enough in myself and I think that's where the compassionate resilience really comes is about the safety in ourselves to be able to you know show up as our full self?
Henny Flynn:I definitely didn't feel that when I was younger. But the other thing about so often, like, when we wear these masks or we, you know, put on these performances, is that actually the people around us can see through it.
Adam Lind:Yeah. Well, I think the irony is masking. I actually haven't seen the term masking. In my mind, it's less used in the neurodivergent space. It's more about essentially someone showing up in a way that isn't really them.
Adam Lind:And I think masking is the antidote to human connection. Like, people often say to me, why do you think like, I find it very easy to connect with people. Like, I think we should sing our own wins and praises and it's just something I find really easy. And when people say, why do you find it so easy? And I say, because I'm really bad at masking.
Adam Lind:And if somebody says to me, how are you? Or ask me a question. I'll I'll just tell the I'll tell the truth. And often, it's not maybe what someone's expected or it's not socially normal or accepted, but I found that it allows you to connect with someone so much faster. So when you get two people showing up in a way that they think they're meant to be showing up rather than how they want to show up, There's just, like, two masks and then two people behind.
Adam Lind:So you've got, like, four people in this two person dynamic. And it gets me in this, like, really like, I just can't do it. And I love watching people unmask. I often, as quick as I can, try and share something vulnerable about myself because it provides a space where the other person can do the same. But I'll I'll use a funny example that got me into, like, a bit of an awkward situation the other day.
Adam Lind:I I just started making a video about it is I was in the men I I do a lot of work around masculinity. I was in the men's changing room at the gym. There was these three guys in there, a bit like laddie guys. And this one guy turns to the other and is like, how have you been, mate? And the other guy's like, oh, I've had the best week, mate.
Adam Lind:I've smashed five birds in five nights. And I'm just, like, not really in the conversation. And he's like, and the best part is, like, not one of them know about the other. And I watched the other two guys, like, laugh, which looked authentically, and they all look at me, ironically, I've with my compassionate lens, in a kind way because they want me to feel a part of the conversation. But I it's one that's one of the situations I can't mask.
Adam Lind:Like, I don't know how to fake laugh in those situations. So I just stand there with a completely blank expression on my face, which creates this extremely awkward energy in the room. And I just kinda I don't say anything. I didn't feel like challenging getting in that moment. It didn't feel right.
Adam Lind:But I was just like, yeah. I just made this noise and then just kind of got changed and left. And I just thought, how funny. And I wonder if the other two guys were actually masking because it's so so this male locker room chat is so socially acceptable. We all wanna fit in.
Adam Lind:But I think I've developed a point where I just I just can't do it.
Henny Flynn:those two guys in the locker room, they were exerting a response to social norms about how men behave in a locker room. What I find really interesting with you is that you don't have the sort allegiance of allegiance to to those social norms in that way. I suspect it's probably one of the things that has enabled you to maintain your sense sense of self, even even with your, I don't know, something like 5,000,000,000 followers or whatever it is now.
Adam Lind:5,000,000,001, actually.
Henny Flynn:5,000,000,001. You know, so, like, that ability to still show up as you. And also, there's something really important here. I think about boundaries. Like, where's the boundary around who we are?
Henny Flynn:Or how much of ourselves we give in those kinds of very public realms. And I think, you know, and again, that thing about playing at the edges of things, I think that's what you and I both do, is we play at the edge of like, well, where is the boundary of like, feels okay for me to display of myself. I'm
Adam Lind:going
Henny Flynn:to bring us right the way back to you. You talked about pedestalising, which is a funny word. Am really aware that I could present in, you know, like this sort of idyllic life. It is really idyllic living here. Life is generally, you know, really good in so many ways.
Henny Flynn:And there are, you know, really human things about me that make that mean that I do get cross about stuff. And I have strong opinions about, you know, ways of being in the world. And, you know, we have, like, you know, in my loved ones, like, really significant, like, health challenges that, you know, that are a kind of day to day thing that we have to also hold space for. So there's all of this like this reality is all here and boundaries are part of how we hold ourselves safe through that. So we don't end up so overexposed that we're just raw and so vulnerable that we we have no access to any of our resilience.
Henny Flynn:So I think that is also important.
Adam Lind:Yeah.
Henny Flynn:Yeah. Boundaries. Yeah.
Adam Lind:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, boundaries as a whole. Have you got another hour?
Henny Flynn:Yeah. Know. Do you know what? I really think I think for for me, like, these two topics of resilience and boundaries are, like, I keep returning to them. So there's obviously something like in my own upbringing nature, nurture, whatever, that really speaks to these two topics because I feel I feel so strongly about both of them.
Adam Lind:Yeah. I think boundaries is something I'm really good at, actually. Because I feel like the narrative normally is how, like, people are so bad with their boundaries and they let people x y zed. And I try and display that actually kind of for other people. Like, I I hang around a lot with my two younger cousins at the moment, and I've been hanging around with another couple of boaters who are slightly younger than me.
Adam Lind:And they keep kind of bringing up that they feel I'm good at boundaries. I mean, I can give some really tiny examples that have happened recently that it seems so minuscule, but, like so one of the guys over here, we went to we went somewhere together and for him to go in was £40 and I paid it on my card for him. And then he messaged me the next day saying, oh, I've got cash. Can I just give it to you in cash? And I didn't want the cash.
Adam Lind:So I said, no. Sorry. Here's my bank details. And we spoke about it after and he was like, oh, it was so cool you did that because I think if I didn't want the cash, I would have just said yes to the cash. And I was like, I know it's a tiny silly example, but actually, most people I don't want to say most people.
Adam Lind:Some people would have just, oh, I don't wanna be difficult or I don't wanna be this. And it's like, didn't want the cash. I'd either lose it. My wife would take it. Like, it just would exit my remit very quickly, and I'd rather have the money in my bank account.
Adam Lind:And I said, the thing about boundaries is what you're actually doing is just being honest. And I think people really respect honesty in it. When you say no to someone, it actually shows a level of closeness because it means you trust the person enough to still accept and want to be in my life even if I tell the truth. Mhmm. And I try and practice this all the time, and it's something I've got increasingly better at, I'd say.
Adam Lind:Because, you know, nine times out of 10, I would say not only do people not care about the thing you might think they care about, they actually respect and are sometimes taken aback by the honesty that you can display.
Henny Flynn:I remember hearing Rue saying to one of his mates, I can't remember what it was, I was like offering to give them a lift somewhere or and it was like, you know, thing that was like out of the way and, you know, a bit of a pain. And they were just like, are you sure? Are you sure? You know, is that okay? And they kept And I was just like, look, honestly, it's totally fine.
Henny Flynn:And then Rue just went, look, when my mom says she, you know, it's okay, it's okay. You don't have to ask. And that was such a brilliant moment because it's like, oh, it was like a sort of looking in a mirror and saying, okay, so that is one of my boundaries. Like, I don't say it's okay if it's not okay. And I think maybe there is this relationship actually between boundaries and resilience that actually if you have boundaries, you know, that we're talking about in kind of like our sort of day to day life, that if your boundaries are clear, it's much easier to be resilient because you can hold this energy for yourself that protects you and looks after you without it becoming a kind of barrier or becoming overwhelmed by other people's needs.
Henny Flynn:And that is also part of resilience is not being overwhelmed.
Adam Lind:Exactly. And you also trust yourself because I had an in it'd be interesting to hear your take on this. Like my favorite thing in any interpersonal relationship is if I go to someone or someone comes to me and says, you've done this or you've been doing this and it's made me feel x. Like, I love that. Like, don't go don't think it about me.
Adam Lind:Don't tell other people. Just come and tell me. I can take it. And I had a friend approach me recently. We'd last spoke two weeks before this encounter.
Adam Lind:And he came to me and he said, I feel like we don't speak enough. You don't make enough time for me. You know, like, we're drifting away. And I was like my first thought was like, love this. Like, you felt this and you've come to me.
Adam Lind:And my initial reaction would usually be like, I'm so sorry. But when I realized we'd had a long conversation two weeks before, actually said, for me, we speak enough. Like, I don't feel that we I'd say, if anything, I speak to you a lot more regularly. Like, twice a month. Like, we'll see each other once a month, and then we'll catch up maybe again within that month, which for me is is actually enough.
Adam Lind:Like, I have a lot of close relationships. The people in my main circle tend to be people I'm more what do you call it? What's the word? More just because they are convenient's the wrong word, but situational.
Henny Flynn:Yes. People
Adam Lind:I work with day to day, people I'm working on projects with week to week, people that live in this radius because maybe we're playing tennis together or going to the gym together or going for a coffee. And, you know, and that's environmental. It will change, I know. As I move around, it will change. And it was funny because I was holding both.
Adam Lind:I was like, thank you so much for coming with me for this. I love that. I love it shows how much you value, but actually, I don't feel like I have the capacity or want to increase our communication. And that was a really interesting one because I felt bad because it's like, who am? They've come to me with this.
Adam Lind:But the boundary was still held because I actually I was like, I hear that from you and you feel like that, but it doesn't resonate for me. And that was such a interesting boundary to hold. Beautiful.
Henny Flynn:God. I mean, honestly, like, so much love for that. Because what you didn't do was join whatever emotion they were holding. You didn't just kind of merge into that. And you were able to see so Branny Brown talks about boundaries as being they are the absolute fundamental requirement for compassion and empathy.
Henny Flynn:So no shit, Sherlock, I'm really interested in boundaries. But because what they show us is where you end and the other person begins. And what you were able to do was meet them where they met the edge of your boundaries. So meet their boundary where it met the edge of yours and still maintain your own space within it rather than barreling through and just joining them in the space that they were in. And I think the other thing about that story is that maybe, you know, in a really sort of beautiful kind of next step, maybe it becomes possible for them to work out what is it about this relationship that or the relationships that I have with other people that make me feel as though I'm not receiving enough you know maybe there's something there that, you know, that I can work on or reflect on in some way.
Henny Flynn:So I think when other people hold their boundaries, it's such a gift, you know.
Adam Lind:Yeah. And I think it ties in really nicely with not masking. Like, just keep showing up authentically, which is my eternal goal.
Henny Flynn:And also recognising that sometimes it's hard. And so, but we keep trying, it's like, and this is back to the not pedestalising, you know, because it's, we do, we just, and this raising awareness about what's happening inside us and keeping this, the witness or the observer part, just kind of like always there, just kind of noticing what's happening in our human form.
Henny Flynn:It's part of like how we keep showing up for ourselves as well.
Adam Lind:Yeah, I love it when we just chat and put the word to write.
Henny Flynn:So, which we're obviously going to be doing a bit more of in October. I'm going to share with people in the notes about the retreat in October. I really can't wait to do that.
Adam Lind:I can't wait and if any of this I guess has resonated with anyone listening we'd love for you to join us. Yeah it's just gonna be so beautiful I guess like I love that it's like we don't even we can't even say too much not because we're gatekeeping, because we're allowing it to be exactly as it's meant to be and because we're calling it the weekend of no requirements. There is nothing required other than to just come and show up as we will be in a beautiful space with beautiful food and beautiful optional activities. Is that the word? Beautiful moments to just kind of, like, glide through.
Adam Lind:And yeah I just really trust that whoever shows up is gonna be like the perfect people to just kind of embrace that that journey together.
Henny Flynn:Yeah I love that I love that and that thing about the I mean gosh the house where we're going to be is phenomenal. I know you weren't able to come and look around it with me but like it really is really so beautiful. Expansive and of luxurious but in the most beautiful sense of that word that relaxation and comfort and ease and also yeah like you say this because I mean I love it if somebody comes when someone comes here on retreat if they if they some people literally just never never like barely leave the retreat house, like, because it's, they've, you know, they've just cocooned in, and that feels so gorgeous to me that they're really listening to themselves in that way. And then other people come and expand out and go on the walks, you know, there's little hand drawn maps, they'll take themselves out and that feels so beautiful to me because they're really stepping into the land and they're really stepping into their bodies I have this same sense for the weekend to no requirements that there are all of these sort of options and, you know, like, delicious things that we're going to offer up.
Henny Flynn:And if someone chooses to do none of them, I mean, that's just so brilliant. And if someone chooses to do every single one of them, that's just so brilliant. It's like because it's all
Adam Lind:I hear that so much. And also, what a good practice of boundaries and not masking. Like, I love the idea of us being like, we're gonna do some yoga now and someone being like, nope. And, like, taking a book and sitting in that beautiful room to read and just just not doing it because we don't want anyone to mask or do anything they don't want to do. I hope it's just like a whole weekend of activism where everything we offer everyone just goes.
Adam Lind:No. Not for me.
Henny Flynn:Would just be You and me swimming in the lake. You and me
Adam Lind:Doing doing the yoga, doing the medicine. Healing. And if that's how it's meant to be, then what a perfect conflict.
Henny Flynn:Yeah. Just so, so wonderful.
Adam Lind:But that's the invitation. Come and unmask and hold boundaries and just be. Yeah. And you shouldn't even know how that's going to feel yet and nor do you need to I guess
Henny Flynn:yeah yeah exactly exactly beautiful adam oh oh love you so much.
Adam Lind:Love you too. What an honor, what a joy.
Henny Flynn:I'm really interested to hear back what we actually said. Hopefully it made sense.
Adam Lind:Even if it didn't I've had a great time
Henny Flynn:all right my
Adam Lind:darling yes just thank you