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Tell Me More is a weekly podcast hosted by Katy Reed Hodges and Luke Stehr, where they unpack the Sunday sermon with Dr. Dennis Wiles. This podcast is designed on the premise that Dr. Wiles always has more to say than can fit in a 35 minute sermon - so we have fun discussing it here each week. We hope that in listening you are educated, encouraged and more connected to the pastor and his teaching!
Welcome to another episode of Tell Me More. For the first time in months, the three of us, myself, doctor Wiles, and Katie, are finally sitting down together to make the podcast. We talk about the World Cup and Ruth and the Fruit of Gentleness, and we hope it is a really great episode for you as your summer continues.
Speaker 2:Gentleness. Gentleness. What we long for.
Speaker 3:Was that the intro?
Speaker 2:Summer camp.
Speaker 3:2002. Okay.
Speaker 1:Is that the intention start of the podcast? Yeah.
Speaker 2:We're actually cut back. Welcome to the podcast, and the three of us are back.
Speaker 1:It's gonna take us a minute
Speaker 3:to hit our rhythm again. We are.
Speaker 2:What do you say?
Speaker 3:That was crazy.
Speaker 2:Gold. Welcome. It's actually the three of us. That's what we were just talking about before we went live. We're back.
Speaker 2:I don't think we've
Speaker 1:all been together since.
Speaker 2:When do you start that clock? Late?
Speaker 1:May? Yeah. Because camp happens.
Speaker 3:Crazy.
Speaker 2:Camp and then your study leave.
Speaker 3:My body's still on study leave. You know? I mean, I went early this year, so I'm still trying to get active.
Speaker 2:My body I went on vacation last week. I think my body is very much still on vacation. Face. I'm
Speaker 3:still catching up. Pace
Speaker 2:around your
Speaker 3:ears. Saddle. I'm trying to get back in the saddle. Again? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Trying to.
Speaker 2:Just gonna do our best.
Speaker 3:You just have to catch the the horse is galloping. You just gotta run alongside and get on it. Just it I'm like, it's not gonna slow down. That's not what happens.
Speaker 2:That's mine.
Speaker 3:I had the middle of that about the summer. Said, man, I bet y'all love summer at church because y'all does everybody somebody's going in nobody's doing anything. I'm like, have you ever been to our church?
Speaker 2:This June, for me, was, like, the busiest June we've ever had.
Speaker 3:Crazy.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of factors. Many, many factors.
Speaker 3:It's just there was no
Speaker 2:slowed pace Yeah. In my world. So Yeah. Yeah. I told somebody it's like, you know, I grew up water skiing and when you're waiting for the rope to come around and you gotta catch it or then the boat's gotta come back around.
Speaker 2:But, you know, once you grab it,
Speaker 3:it's gonna drag you. Yes.
Speaker 2:It's like that's like when we were driving back from Colorado
Speaker 3:That's a terrible image because I'm a terrible watershed.
Speaker 2:I told Ryan, like, I gotta grab the rope. I know I gotta grab the rope.
Speaker 3:Are you
Speaker 1:a better horseback rider
Speaker 3:than you are a watershed? Neither one. I'm the author.
Speaker 2:Also, I love my job. It sounded like my job's just being like me just being dragged behind a boat.
Speaker 1:No. But summer summer at first steps underneath the has boat. Has a pace to it. Yeah. And it's a it's a fast pace.
Speaker 3:It is.
Speaker 1:It's good. It's good.
Speaker 3:Then this year we added the Jordanian whole you know, the whole thing
Speaker 1:with four cups. Which great. Camps, gender bible, bow camp.
Speaker 2:A short staffed Jordanian.
Speaker 1:Three five engagement trips, some disaster relief deployments. We just, you know, hosted a foreign government. No.
Speaker 2:And we're we're
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, we're looking for a lot of staff right now and so everything we're doing this some of this has a silver lining. So I wanna say it positively, mean it's not, this isn't a pity party but everything we're doing is a little bit short staffed. I think that has a silver lining of like a camaraderie.
Speaker 3:All hands on deck.
Speaker 2:We may have talked about this in here, we certainly talked about it among the staff like the Jordanian event, it was like, everyone's a utility player, everyone's here till the job's done, everyone's saying like, what do you need from me? You know? Billy's like, how can I be useful? And they're like, actually we might need your help with registering people over here, and it's like, well I just won't go home till it's done, and I love that spirit. And that's what I think when you do have when everybody knows we're down a few players
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So it's not the natural roles and responsibilities. You do get this great chance, great opportunity for everybody to kinda lean in. That's what I see. So it's it's to be celebrated. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It is. You'd be proud of your staff. Yeah. I'm hope hopefully, you see it and you are, but if you've kind of It's good. Really listening from vacation, you haven't been around a bit, it's a good there's a good sense
Speaker 3:of Busy summer. Teamwork, and it has been very
Speaker 1:good since. Yeah. But
Speaker 3:we're here we are here we are all back again, finally.
Speaker 1:Sponsored by First Baptist Arlington. Both we are sponsored. We are.
Speaker 3:By First Baptist Arlington. So glad we are.
Speaker 1:This is podcast.
Speaker 2:I wear the patch on my jersey. I am sponsored.
Speaker 1:You know, I I have to ask because you asked on Sunday morning, who were you rooting for in the final? Was it Argentina or Spain? Yeah. So I You watched the final.
Speaker 3:I did.
Speaker 1:I watched the final. First time ever for
Speaker 3:you. Yeah. It's my first time to ever watch a World Cup final game in my entire life. Yes. And my entire home, we had we had a birthday party for our grandson.
Speaker 3:And so his girlfriend was there, him and one of their another couple, friend of theirs, and then our whole family. And but the the teenagers were mostly in the pool, but they were checking in on the game. Mhmm. One of the girls that was there who was a friend of Josh's girlfriend was for Argentina. I was pulling for Argentina.
Speaker 3:Everybody else was pulling for Spain in our entire crew. So, anyway but I I said before the game started, I said, I think Spain will win. I'd watch Spain play another game, and nobody can score on them. I said, so it looks to me like if you can't score, you can't win. So I don't know that you can score.
Speaker 3:I said, but I'm going to pull from Messi to win this one more time. And but and the I would just say this, the goalie for Argentina played lights out. I mean, he blocked, like, a 100 goals. Incredible. You know?
Speaker 3:And Look at you. The goalie for
Speaker 1:A soccer expert. Spain
Speaker 3:might as well not even been in the game because Argentina never shot a They weren't even They never shot a shot. They never got closer. I could've played goalie for Spain, you know, in that game. Could've been a good
Speaker 2:goalie in another life.
Speaker 3:I I think so. I think I mean, as I've watched soccer, that's what I told Sydney. I I would have to be a goalie Yeah. Because I'm a wanna touch the ball. You know?
Speaker 3:And I I would I would not be able to run around like they do without a weapon.
Speaker 2:You could probably kinda
Speaker 3:fill up the net. I think I could.
Speaker 2:You could do something there. No.
Speaker 3:There you go. Yeah. But but, yeah, it was and plus, I gotta I'll be honest with you. Just I don't know soccer that well, but I felt like Argentina to me kinda pushes the limits a little bit of what's actually allowable. More aggressive?
Speaker 3:I kinda got a little irritated with that, to be honest with you. And but at the same time, I was focused more on Messi, not the entire team.
Speaker 1:Fair
Speaker 3:enough. But, man, they
Speaker 2:had I do like Messi. A couple of
Speaker 3:guys on their team, Argentina's team that were yeah. They are feisty. You know? And and they even got into a fight after the game was over, which I thought was quite fascinating. Yes.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, it was it was something. But I was you know, I I think, again, just my limited view, I think Spain was the best team. And so I think they deserved to win, and they celebrated. They had so much fun. I saw a bunch of their fans.
Speaker 3:They played here.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And I was just driving that day, and I I ran into a ton of the Spain fans, you know, just going to the stadium. And so which is kind of a cool thing to see all these people. Now what's crazy to me, soccer fans are crazy, though. I mean, they
Speaker 2:It's their world.
Speaker 3:They are into it. Yes, they are. I always thought Alabama fans are crazy, you know, but I'm and I still do think that. But, man, soccer people, painted grown men, painted faces wearing all kind of uniforms and flags and I mean, they are full out into it. So it's kinda fascinating to watch.
Speaker 3:I kinda like that,
Speaker 1:Oh, it's fun. It's been a fun summer.
Speaker 3:I love come here. Yeah. I've I've learned a good bit. Russell McCaskill's proud of me because I've mentioned soccer now, like, two times from the pulpit. And to him, that's like a win.
Speaker 3:You know? There you go. He he showed up at the now, of course, we had our workers from Spain Mhmm. Who did the luncheon Sunday after church. And now we have a new team member who is from Spain Yes.
Speaker 3:On the named Africa of all things Right. On the team. Yep. And so they were just commenting about it, you know, just about the the match that was about to take place, and Russell showed up in a Spain jersey. Oh, man.
Speaker 3:So Good job, Russell.
Speaker 2:Watch out, though. Next next you know, he'll be on a plane to Spain
Speaker 3:work working with our people. That's right. Right? Yeah. So We can figure that out.
Speaker 2:Get to show up with that much camaraderie
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:Than not hop
Speaker 1:in the mission. We can figure that out. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But but my two favorite teams in the entire World Cup were the US and Jordan. Yeah. So yeah. Jordan has a soft spot in
Speaker 1:my heart.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Of course. For obvious reasons. To know those those folks and the fun we had with them. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, I was proud of proud of their team. I mean, I'm I was proud of the men's soccer team for us. Mhmm. But again, I'm not a soccer expert, but just watching these last two or three games, I just feel like our team's not quite at that level. That this was a whole another the way they played,
Speaker 2:which is just
Speaker 3:very different. Sorry. As much as I love our team and all that, but, man, those guys and and the some of the guys from Jordan were telling me, you know, these boys, they've just been playing this their whole I saw they play. Yeah. They've been they've been doing this their whole lot and playing with each other for years.
Speaker 3:It's almost like they just look at each other. It's kinda
Speaker 2:The US has made great strides
Speaker 3:We have.
Speaker 2:In taking soccer taking soccer seriously even in my kind of adult life. Yeah. It's huge. So the fact that we're even playing on the world stage is already more than we used to be doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So But when you think about, like, the it's not just the boys. Know the girls too, but I'm thinking about the boys. Oh, the girls are boys.
Speaker 2:Ahead and
Speaker 3:They are.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They are.
Speaker 3:But like in our church, you know, the boys, think they're playing baseball. They're playing fall baseball. You know? They're playing club baseball. They're playing football.
Speaker 3:They're playing basketball, club basketball. And some of them are obviously playing soccer. They're playing hockey. Our boys
Speaker 2:My high school didn't even have soccer.
Speaker 3:Yeah. They're they're playing everything. Yeah. You know? Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And, you know, that's a little bit different. That's what Omar was telling me. Well, all I've ever played is soccer. I mean, that's that's all we ever played. We didn't we didn't Yeah.
Speaker 3:We didn't have another ball team at school.
Speaker 1:Well, you only need a ball.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's right. So it's just different. But it was fun. I I feel like I learned something.
Speaker 3:I'm still not a it's just not something I'll be able to watch.
Speaker 1:You're not gonna be coming to an analyst then.
Speaker 3:I just, you know, I just don't I know I'm not that enamored with it. I was I was more caught up in the cultural event of it
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3:As much as anything.
Speaker 2:Like, I think that's part of the fun.
Speaker 1:It was
Speaker 3:a ton of fun. Us being part of it obviously made a huge difference, of course. Had we not done had we not experienced what we experienced with our Jordanian friends, I would have experienced it at a much different level than I did
Speaker 1:Very fair.
Speaker 3:This year. You know? So Yes. It was great. And which which to me speaks to the beauty and the power of relationships.
Speaker 3:Just that all of a sudden, I had something I had a little skin in the game, and the next thing you know, I kinda got enamored with the game a little bit. You know? So it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:That'll do it.
Speaker 3:But here's what I was surprised by because I, you know, I, again, since I don't know soccer world, my my impression was that the whole world pulls for Argentina because of Messi. So Sunday morning at church when I just said Argentina Mhmm. Got a pretty good applause. But when I said Spain in the 11:00 service, it's like all of the young people just went crazy pulling for Spain. So that kinda surprised me a little bit.
Speaker 3:I just I wasn't expecting that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think the cultural read on that, if I understand it well, is no one in Latin it was really tough for Latin American fans because they definitely did not want Argentina to win because of the rivalries that exist. Yeah. Venezuela, Colombia, all those countries, they don't want Argentina to win. Yeah.
Speaker 1:They also have mixed emotions about Spain. Yeah. But when it comes down to it, they'd rather pull for Spain
Speaker 3:than Argentina. Yeah. Kinda the way I am about Alabama. Anybody about Alabama, know? Basically.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I'll just pretty much will pull for. If you wanna become a friend of mine, play Alabama in a sport, and I'll become your And all of sudden, the biggest Julian. I can promise you that.
Speaker 1:I love
Speaker 3:And yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, let's talk about the fruit of the spirit.
Speaker 3:Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Might we?
Speaker 3:What a We haven't been talking about it all summer. You you you both both of y'all have actually preached on it. Both of y'all are preaching on the fruits too.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. Several of us.
Speaker 3:You know?
Speaker 2:Yep. You
Speaker 3:you had Abigail.
Speaker 2:I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And you had Philemon
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And and a little bit of
Speaker 1:I I used a verse from Titus.
Speaker 3:Used Titus to connect to Philemon and Onesimus.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We kinda had minor characters, you and I
Speaker 1:We did.
Speaker 2:On purpose. I mean, as we mapped it all out, we wanted We men and women. We wanted
Speaker 1:We wanted to kinda go off the beaten
Speaker 2:as as
Speaker 1:it is. Yeah. The typical Mhmm. Kinda bible hero stories.
Speaker 2:We're getting some people who the books are named after. Yeah. Ruth. Well, guess, Philemon too. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and technical. But, you know, you got we're getting to Abraham, and we're getting is Joseph next week?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Just there's some some heavy hitters. Yeah.
Speaker 3:We had Jonathan. We started with Jonathan.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We did.
Speaker 2:And who's
Speaker 1:medium? Know, major? He would
Speaker 3:get a supporting actor role, Oscar. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Very much so. Very much so. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I you
Speaker 1:know, in my life, very few sermons on Abigail, Abigail, very few sermons on Philemon. I don't even know if I've heard any on either of those actually.
Speaker 2:And in the same way, very few sermons on gentleness. Like, if you look at the topic
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:Like, there's there's not a lot.
Speaker 3:It's funny. We have a cousin named Philemon.
Speaker 2:Do you?
Speaker 3:Uh-huh. But our whole life, he's always been called Philemon. That's what his family that's what the whole family called him. And I can remember even as a kid, I never made the connection that his name was Philemon, you know, from the scripture. Right.
Speaker 3:We're just calling him Philemon, you know, our brother. Sometimes his nick name was brother. And I'll never forget one day we were like at a family reunion, you know, and I was a teenager. And we were just talking about names and and Philemon we were joking about people's names that are in the bible that aren't in the bible somehow or another. And Philemon, you know, just said, well, obviously mine's in the bible.
Speaker 3:I was like, your name's not in the bible. And he was like, there's a book in the bible with my name on it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What about it?
Speaker 3:Speaking about Jordanian friends, one of them is calling me right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. He put on put them on live. Maybe not.
Speaker 1:Do Perhaps actually. Perhaps
Speaker 3:later. Later. That
Speaker 1:one could manage very
Speaker 3:well on that. But, yeah, I mean, I I had never made the connection that his name was Philemon or, you know, Philemon, however you wanna pronounce it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And because he was Philemon, our brother to us, and I was like, I have never known that was your name. He's like, what do think my name was?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 3:And then this past Sunday, Ruth, you know, let's think about it. How many how many books in the scripture are named for a Gentile?
Speaker 1:Philemon. Yeah. Ruth. Ruth.
Speaker 2:How many I'm thinking about books named after people. Yeah. All the prophets. Those are people.
Speaker 1:Or even They're not Gentiles.
Speaker 2:They're not Gentiles. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And and Ruth what do you say about Ruth? I mean, she's Lot's descendant. So but Lot is Abraham's nephew, not Abraham's son. Right. So you wouldn't so Lot doesn't necessarily qualify as an as a Hebrew.
Speaker 1:Right? No. Wouldn't Well, he's not Abraham's seed.
Speaker 3:That's right. We wouldn't call him that even though he's kind of Adjacent? Yeah. Connected. But the Moabites
Speaker 2:But that DNA test wouldn't
Speaker 3:No. And and the Moabites would definitely not be viewed positively in the scripture in their their whole beginning, actually.
Speaker 2:You're saying Ruth is a bit of an unexpected heroine.
Speaker 3:That's what I think. Yes. Uh-huh. And which I do think Lee said that question, which I briefly touched on Sunday morning, why in the world would she why would this book be in the bible? You know, I mean, this is such a random story, you know, just an everyday person Yeah.
Speaker 3:Living an everyday life. I mean, there's no judge in here. There's no famous victory of Israel in this story. There's no
Speaker 2:It's rather small Yeah. In its significance in
Speaker 3:terms of like political players. And a and a farmer and a Yeah. Yeah. You know? Mean It's it's
Speaker 1:it's set in
Speaker 2:the ecosystem, but it's not Yeah. Yeah. I mean If it's a Star Wars movie
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's kinda like off the beaten path episode in the Mandalorian Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Kind of thing. It's beautiful, but it's doesn't necessarily
Speaker 3:found its way into the bible.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't it's not like Yeah. The Babylonians came in and wrecked everything.
Speaker 1:Exactly. No. But I think from a Hebrew scholarship perspective, you know, if David is king, which he is Yeah. And you find out he's got
Speaker 3:a Where where'd he come from?
Speaker 1:A great grandma who's gentile. That's right. Yeah. Well, what kind of gentile was she?
Speaker 3:And there's
Speaker 2:a good story there.
Speaker 3:So Exactly. Why why does she
Speaker 1:deserve to be in the lineage?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I like, you know, a lot of this obviously, I just spent a lot of time reading Ruth and studying Ruth in the last week or two just because I wanna have a little more of a context, and scholars do debate why Ruth. Why is Ruth in the scripture? And most of the scholars that I read said, well, you don't wanna you don't wanna limit it just to be in David's ancestry. Right.
Speaker 3:Even though that is important because we don't get that anywhere else. We don't really have his lineage, you know, which is interesting. Mhmm. And so you if you're reading Samuel, you do have to wonder where did he come from because God, you know, chooses Saul. If you're gonna have to have a king, here he is.
Speaker 3:Take this one. And and then he ends up being so corrupt and broken. And then all of a sudden, just this quote unquote kind of random family
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Shows up. You know? And not only that, of all the boys that Jesse has, this is the one you wouldn't choose. You know? Right.
Speaker 3:Jesse doesn't even think to bring him out for the lineup, you know, for for Samuel. And he's just a smelly shepherd. Yeah. He's he's he's the young kid, and he can't he's not obviously, it's not David. And and lo and behold, is David.
Speaker 3:And where does he come from? Where's Jesse come from? So Ruth does answer that for us. Yeah. But but I think that, as I said Sunday morning, a lot of scholars say, well, if you really the heart of the story of Luke is that I mean, of of Ruth is that you are if you live a godly life, there's going to be the blessing of that life.
Speaker 3:Right. And so Ruth two twelve, you're receiving a reward, which is what Boaz says to Ruth. You've been faithful and God's gonna honor that. And the fact that that we capture that in the midst of a story of just a nondescript, normal everyday person. That's the charm of Ruth to me.
Speaker 1:But it also just goes to show that scripture's consistent through and through. And so sometimes I think we can get to the book of Acts and think that including the Gentiles is a new idea. Exactly. But it's not.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:I mean, it goes all the way back to Genesis. But we get a whole book of the bible and Ruth dedicated to showing that Gentiles also belong
Speaker 3:to the family of God. Yeah. And what's, you know, what's going to be interesting is David is going to continue that line through Bathsheba.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So I mean, two very obviously Ruth and Bathsheba are very different women. But Bathsheba is victimized by David. You know, Bathsheba's not not some evil sinful woman. That's not who Beth that's not her story.
Speaker 1:No. She thought she was taking a bath
Speaker 3:Yeah. Not the seductress on the road. She doing her life.
Speaker 1:And all
Speaker 3:of a sudden, the king
Speaker 2:Been mischaracterized.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The king of of Israel calls you in. Well, that was not those invitations weren't turned down. Yeah. That's not optional.
Speaker 3:You know? And so it's and so she gets written into the script in a very unusual way just like Ruth. Ruth gets written in through the if you think about it, through the tragedy of the death of her husband.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's really the only reason she's included in this story because had she I'm not sure that her husband if we don't know. But, I mean, if he had a life in Moab, why would he go back to Bethlehem if they had established a life in in Moab? Mhmm. But the fact that Ruth didn't have that anymore allows her to get written into the script. So but anyway and then connecting it to the fruit of the spirit, you know, and on Sunday, I I wanted to to use an example of the life of Jesus, but I wanted it to be somehow connected to the the thought line, if you will, of Ruth.
Speaker 3:And so that's why I chose the Samaritan woman. Here's another woman who is of a very different kind of than Ruth, and yet she gets somehow included in the script where Jesus I I may be wrong about this, but I think outside of the apostles, I think just a one on one conversation, I think it's the longest conversation in John. I think you're right. Is Jesus in a Samaritan woman? Not just a not just a woman, but a Samaritan woman that's been married five times.
Speaker 1:She's also the first woman first person to really get sent to proclaim the news
Speaker 2:of Jesus. And it's early. Yes. I mean, it's early in Yes.
Speaker 1:She gets sent before the disciples gets sent out two by two.
Speaker 3:Interesting. And and that Jesus would be so well, I am he. You look you look well, you know Yeah. Maybe when when the messiah comes or whatever. Well, that's that's why.
Speaker 3:That's who you're talking to. I'm thinking of all the people to reveal that to. It's fascinating. I'm so grateful John tells us that story, you know, and then, of course, we get mayor Magdalene from last week. So, yeah, it's there's there's actually actually method to the madness here everybody.
Speaker 3:If you've been intention, these things are all being done intentionally to help you be thoughtful and to and to realize how big the gospel is, that it is for everybody. And and the fact that these kind of people, if you can say it that way, it sounds a little pejorative, but I just mean a Moabite woman I would I rather be scandalous.
Speaker 2:These types of I
Speaker 1:don't think it's a stretch to, like I mean, Jews couldn't even touch Gentiles without becoming ritually unclean. Exactly. And so
Speaker 2:And women just didn't they weren't main characters. Right.
Speaker 1:Period. That's right. So you've got these two things working against Ruth. Absolutely. And somehow she becomes Yeah.
Speaker 1:A main player in God's redemptive story for mankind. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I love the the way she treated Naomi. I mean, when when Naomi tells her, you know, okay. You need to go home. I'm going home. And as I said, Sunday, Ruth's not rude about it, but she's pretty determined.
Speaker 3:So that that's one of the reasons I chose her because I wanted our people to see gentleness can be very firm and really strong. It's just gentle. And somehow she could do Jesus could do that. And that's the lesson I want us to learn. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That that is a part of the fruit of the spirit. But when I was in seminary years ago, Oswald Sanders spoke at Southwestern. And back in those days, Oswald Chambers was the much more famous Oswald.
Speaker 2:I don't know Oswald Sanders.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Oswald Chambers had written this devotional guide. Oswald Sanders, though, was an evangelist and just a really powerful missionary, a missiologist, but a real winsome warm person. And so I fell in love with him just just getting to meet him through our theological fellowship at Southwestern. He was a speaker there.
Speaker 3:And so I bought his book on the holy spirit. He was a big and this was back during an era when the whole conversation about gifts of the spirit was so prominent in Southern Baptist life. People were so worried about charismatics and what might happen and Pentecostalism was taking root. And and he was a full blown somewhat charismatic missionary. I mean, he spoke in tongues and all that.
Speaker 3:So he wrote a book on the spirit of of God and the gifts of the spirit and all that. And so I bought that book and and I've used it for years and
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Because I just know I just remember him and how much I loved him. Mhmm. But he says in his commentary on the fruit of the spirit, he calls this one the most unpopular, least desired fruit
Speaker 2:Who wants to
Speaker 3:be Gentle. Gentle. And and he's the one that gave me that line. He said it's anger on a leash.
Speaker 2:Which is an inch I mean, I had to chew on that Yeah. When you said that.
Speaker 3:Anger on a leash.
Speaker 2:Love that phrase. Know, I've got a weird let me let me take us off the road. I have a weird like, the bible talks about anger a lot, and in some ways talks about it as righteous, but I've always been a little bit shy of claiming that because I feel like I can't get righteous anger right. Yeah. Just it turns into Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Sin. Yeah. Right? So when you say anger on a leash
Speaker 3:Be angry and do not sin.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm like, Jesus can.
Speaker 1:Easier than done.
Speaker 2:Jesus has done that.
Speaker 3:He was good at it.
Speaker 2:Has any other human ever been able to do it? Not
Speaker 3:me. He was good at everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's the thing. But, like, so when you say anger on a leash, I'm like, I gotta that that's a mental image that I have to think about. You know? It's good.
Speaker 2:It slows me down.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Makes me think about what that really looks like in my life. You know? And I think he's right about it being unpopular, but I think if you see it as tamed strength and that's why, you know, in my in my athletic love for athletics, John Wooden has always been my favorite coach. And and I know he's from a generation gone by, and a lot of people nowadays don't even know who he is.
Speaker 1:A lot of
Speaker 3:young people have no clue who John Wooden is. But when I was younger, he was the head basketball coach at UCLA. Mhmm. And in my young life in the sixties, he won seven national championships in a row, division one basketball. So you think about today, like, if you're in any way a fan, you know, like like when Baylor won the national championship with Scott Drew Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Men's basketball championship. Awesome. And we we were we all were thrilled. I was a region at the time. Can you imagine if if we had won seven in a row and then maybe lost one and then won three more?
Speaker 3:What you know what I mean? If we won like
Speaker 2:10 Unprecedented. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We would all be going, this is the greatest basketball school. This this is this is this is a joke. You know? And we have to pay coach Drew a gazillion dollar.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Unmatched.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, that's what John Wooden
Speaker 2:That's John Wooden. Yeah. And he actually did it.
Speaker 3:Over 600 games, won won 88 games in a row in division one basketball without ever losing. Four perfect seasons. And he was this small guy and when you would watch the videos that they would show of him, other interviews with him, he always talked kinda like this. He was very quiet. His very first practice every year, these are college basketball players.
Speaker 3:His very first practice every year, all they did was learn how to put on their socks and shoes because he he said early on and back then basketball shoes were very different than they are now. The guys would get blisters on their feet and they would have issues and sometimes they'd get infected. And so he just said, alright, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna learn how to do the little things really, really well. And you're gonna prove to me that you can do that or you can't play for me.
Speaker 3:So if you can't show me that you know how to wear athletic socks and wear your shoes, and he would even sometimes have a practice without a basketball. In other words, he he said, you you're just going to show me that you know how to do these little things or I just you just won't play for me. Mhmm. And so you have these incredibly gifted athletes like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Walton, some of the greatest NBA basketball players ever are sitting on a bench in front of him tying their shoes, and he's inspecting their shoes before he'll even let them play for him. I mean but when you when they were asked about him, almost to a person, people would his former players would just say, he was just gentle in how he led us.
Speaker 3:And I'm thinking, what an interesting word to use to refer to a coach. Now that we don't think of gentleness in that context.
Speaker 1:No. Not in leadership.
Speaker 2:We don't think of leadership as gentle. Mental image of meekness. Yeah. Just like a bridal strength. That's what I've always been told.
Speaker 3:But you know what's funny? After the service Sunday morning Yeah. I had numerous coaches in our church come out to me and go, I I love I'm using that right there this very week. And I had an older coach in our church who's retired, came up to me and said, thank you. John Wooden was my role model my entire life.
Speaker 3:Had a guy in our church who played against John Wooden's team at UCLA in Pauley Pavilion and came up and just said, he was a legend. We played against him, but he was like he glowed in the dark. Mhmm. You know? We all looked at him and thought, man, wish I played for him.
Speaker 3:You know? So and I thought, ain't that interesting that nowadays, he would be he would be an anomaly now because that in this culture, you're right, leaders are not viewed as having that quality of gentleness. That that is there's nothing nobody ever nobody ever said he was weak, mealy mouthed, you know, had no opinion, no backbone. That that was never said about him because he's in proved it too. Yes.
Speaker 2:I mean I mean What are you gonna say about someone who just just wins all the time? Because
Speaker 3:see these photos of him standing in the huddle with his players, and here's this small little guy, and they're giants. You know? And they do everything he says.
Speaker 2:But he's got their command. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's the thing about gentleness. And I think it's scandalous to us today to think that leadership could be gentle.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But, you know, it's not this permissiveness. It's not a reluctance to engage. You know, I even think if we go back to Ruth, you know, Naomi basically says, God has been so unkind to me. Yep. Call me bitter because the Lord has been bitter to me.
Speaker 1:Don't call me Naomi. Don't call me Naomi anymore, call me Mara. And Ruth goes, you can try and send me away but wherever you go, I will go wherever you stay, I will stay and I'm with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:And it's I mean, it is a committed force but it's not it's not domination. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was genuine and it was very firm, but it wasn't mean spirited. And that's what I would love to see us capture today. And I do think you're right. It's you are swoon upstream because I mean, John Stockton is another example to me of someone who characterized it, embodied that brilliant theologian, powerful preacher, but just so humble and gentle in his in his demeanor. And, you know, he was very famous in the theological world when I was younger.
Speaker 3:He still is to me. But you know how things pass by and, you know, it is what it is. So the the the the baton kinda gets handled to the next generation. But I love John Stott. And and so I'm I've I've told you all the story, but when I got to meet him, it's been it was like four days in a conference with him.
Speaker 3:And at Southwestern, we had we used to have what was called scholars in ministry at Southwestern. Was all the if you did your PhD there, you can get be invited back to a week of just scholarly study. And they would have a a prominent theologian or ethicist or someone come in for the week and you got to just sit with them, listen to them, preach in chapel, attend lectures that they gave to professors, sit in on classes with them, that kind of thing. And I did that several times. But John Stott, one year, we we had him and and I forgot to register for the conference.
Speaker 3:And I went every year. Every I don't know if it was every year, but every time they had it. So the the people there knew that I that I typically came, and I forgot. And so last minute, I just called and said, can I come? And they said, yeah.
Speaker 3:Abs we do. We have room for one more because it was limited, and I said, okay. So I signed up. Well so when I got there, everybody had name badges and paint you know, we had, like, a folder, you know, with your name on it and all the materials and all that. And so I get there.
Speaker 3:Well, I have to have a they give me a little name tag, and I just write my name on it. You know? And so my buddies are all teasing me going, Wiles, come on, man. You know? What are doing?
Speaker 3:Why didn't you sign up? I said, no. No. I forgot about it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:It is what it is. And they were letting me know. They were like, it's John Stott, man. You know? And you didn't sign up for John Stott.
Speaker 3:I said, I know that. You know? I'm standing in line with all these guys, and and and they're saying and so this lady that was helping was like, well, let me get you a folder. And one of the guys said, don't give the man a folder. He didn't have enough sense to sign up for it.
Speaker 3:Just don't worry about it. And I was like, would y'all quit dogging me? And so anyway, so they finally get all my stuff to get. And then she says, well, actually, all the seats are assigned. And since she signed up late, you don't have a seat.
Speaker 3:And I said, you know what? I don't care. As long as I'm just in the room, I can sit back in the hall. She said, well, actually, the only seat left, one of the professors is not gonna be able to attend, and it's actually at the table with with John Stott. So I go to He's working out.
Speaker 3:His table the whole week. So when I first went up there that very first time, I sit down and I'm looking at all my buddies going, I'm
Speaker 2:at this table,
Speaker 3:me and John. And so I got a chance to sit next to him, the most gentle, humble, brilliant guy. And and even said things like, you know, you write all this stuff and you do all this work, but, I mean, you know, I don't know if you guys are reading it or I'm thinking, you don't know if you guys are reading it. Okay. You wrote the Luzon covenant.
Speaker 3:You you we're reading
Speaker 1:everything Well, that's a big deal if you're listening at home.
Speaker 3:Everything you write, we're reading it. So but in his view, he's just trying to be faithful to God, you know, and do what he's been called to do. And I just golly, I just think of him as someone who exhibits that in our arena. And and right now, I'm looking at our arena, and it's like everybody's just loud and agenda driven and issue driven. That just seems to be the the the climate.
Speaker 3:And if you want to somehow get noticed or you think that's important, then you've gotta be in on that conversation and you've gotta do it in a certain way. And I don't know. I just think it's time. Maybe maybe the tide is turning, so to speak. I think I think it's time for some gentle, firm, determined, thoughtful, mature voices.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. You know? And to me, the best way to do that is live in community with with others. And so, I don't know. I think it's a quality we really need.
Speaker 3:And I and I and I love that it's through the spirit. That is something God has to do to us. Yeah. You know, because it's not natural equipment. It's just not.
Speaker 3:But it is a fruit of the work of the spirit in our life. And Jesus is a great example. Somehow he could do it. You know? And I love that story, the woman at the well.
Speaker 3:There are just so many ways that that story could have gone down. And I just I find myself reading it often just the way Jesus chose to treat people. You know? He didn't back away from who she was. Mean, he called her out.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:He'd been married five times, and the guy you're living with right now, you're not even married. Okay. Got it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So it's not like he said, hey. Don't worry about it. You know? Even like, you know, Brad used the story of the woman caught in adultery, which I know is not in the best text, but it's in a lot of text. And so I think it's a legitimate story.
Speaker 3:And Good enough that we should use it. Absolutely. And just how even Jesus Jesus didn't soft pedal adultery. That's not what happened.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But he gently confronted her as well as everybody else. He just had a way of just good at it, you know. And so I I think that's why we need the the cultivation of God's spirit in us so that we can somehow find our way to do that. Mhmm. I think the culture is hungry for it, but I think it's best done relationally.
Speaker 3:You know? It's hard to capture it. Well, gentleness can only happen in community. Yeah. It's it's, you know, it's hard to it's hard to capture it unless you're in relationship with people.
Speaker 3:And and I'm I'm honest enough to say, I felt like the journey we went on with our new Jordanian friends, I just felt like there was a lot of gentleness in the way we behaved toward each other, you know, of trying to accommodate things and compromise when we needed to. And I just felt that from them. It was a good it it was was a good word to me that you can be determined because to pull off an event like that, there had to be a lot of planning and a lot of determination, but you could do it in a with a demeanor that wasn't off putting. And I don't know. I found all of that very attractive is what I'd say.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Anyway.
Speaker 2:It is it's upside down. It's upside down kingdom. Yeah. Yeah. We talk about it's countercultural.
Speaker 2:Because I don't know that gentleness will, like I don't think it'll
Speaker 1:ever be in vogue.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's not viral. It's not how you build your own, you know, following in that way, but it is how Jesus did it. Yeah. And it and through the work of the spirit, it is very attractive.
Speaker 2:And so
Speaker 3:And it needs to be alive in the church.
Speaker 1:It does. Well and there's a theologian named Stanley Howard Ross who says that you don't do these things because they work. Like, there's nothing really pragmatic about following the Sermon on the Mount. Exactly. You do it because it's what life in the kingdom is like Right.
Speaker 1:Which is a higher and truer reality. And it may not always work out for you and your own self interest
Speaker 2:in this world. If gentleness will get you elected. I don't know. I really don't right now Yeah. In our political culture.
Speaker 3:I don't think so.
Speaker 2:But we don't do it to get
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:That. We do it because it's it's the Jesus way. It and it and it's it's his economy.
Speaker 3:It can sure make your church better and serve your community well. Oh.
Speaker 2:Yes. Absolutely. But if we think it's gonna be yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You don't do it for it. Being gentle is not always gonna fill your own self interest. You're not always gonna find yourself married to a really rich guy.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:You know? That's right.
Speaker 3:Oh, and even Boaz was gentle. You know, we couldn't He was. We didn't talk about him, but he had a certain gentleness about him.
Speaker 2:He did. Well, for my POV, it's okay to hear a sermon about Ruth where Ruth is actually the main character. Mhmm. Because somehow, we hear a lot of sermons about the book of Ruth and Boaz, and so that's why the main character. So I'm I'm actually just for my little hashtag over here, find that we could focus on Ruth and not Boaz this time.
Speaker 3:And I don't even know I guess I'm Received. Thank you. I might have mentioned Boaz, and I don't even remember.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I can't remember if you
Speaker 3:did.
Speaker 2:People can just turn it into, you know Yeah. Go be a Boaz. And it's like, Boaz is a
Speaker 1:great character, but we don't Be Ruth.
Speaker 2:The book ain't called Boaz.
Speaker 1:Man in the church, you can be gentle and committed like Ruth.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I'm fine.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:Just in this just this one time. Yeah. How about we just keep on her?
Speaker 3:In this in the in the understanding that it's not being weak. That that's really what I love about it. You can't do what Ruth did and be weak. I mean, was about their very survival Yeah. For her and Naomi as a family.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, she had to she had to work, you know, share his resolve.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's very bridal, Absolutely. Tamed in that way.
Speaker 3:So I love that. Anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, we didn't talk about what's going on around here, but there is
Speaker 1:plenty There's still lots going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Mean, I'm kinda looking toward August a little bit and that there's we're kicking off a lot of things. Teacher trainings, the night of celebration
Speaker 1:for Yes.
Speaker 2:All our summer youth student trips.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:That's on August 9?
Speaker 1:Sunday. That's Sunday evening.
Speaker 2:So this would be maybe a good time for
Speaker 1:Sunday's coming.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fbc.org/events will get you most of those because it kinda affect your corner of the world. But, yeah, if you have students in your in your home
Speaker 1:So much is going on.
Speaker 2:They're all about to promote into the next class.
Speaker 1:Big enough for big churches coming.
Speaker 2:Yes. First
Speaker 1:at first is coming. Not bibles. First at first. They do bibles later.
Speaker 2:That makes sense.
Speaker 3:Go ahead.
Speaker 1:And then I have a I have a first grader now. Oh, there's, like that.
Speaker 2:Sixth grade party is coming up. I mean, just a lot of if you have a a kid that's going into a new grade
Speaker 3:Merge.
Speaker 2:Or college Mhmm. There's an event for almost each grade.
Speaker 1:Yep. Our college ministry is gearing up
Speaker 2:Straight up.
Speaker 1:Still prayer walking.
Speaker 2:Love it. Love the faithfulness. It's exciting, and I don't want us to miss it.
Speaker 3:So Mhmm. A lot going on. Love it. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 2:Well, let's see y'all next week. Mhmm. Thanks for listening to the Tell Me More podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at fbca.org to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2:Have a good day.