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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
Recording
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J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Uh, no, no. No, no, no. A five-page Word document. I have two kids, so 10 pages that I had to duplicate, and she's like, "Don't worry, you can just open it up, it's fillable, and then return it."
And I'm thinking, "Okay. Well, first of all I don't have Word," so it won't be fillable for me. There's no, like, quick, easy way to do it. I literally opened it up and was like, "Can I do this in Photoshop?" Like, "Should I bring this into Canva?"
You might think photography's all about the technical stuff, the gear, the settings. Some of it is, and we'll get into it. But the harder part is what your brain and nervous system do the second you try to make something. The overthinking, the voice that swears you're getting it all wrong. Some weeks we're deep in the craft, some weeks we're deep in your head.
Either way, it's less about the camera and more about the person holding it. Welcome to this week's episode of The Focus Trap.
[00:00:51] Meet Nic — and the Keynote That Almost Happened
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Amy (she/her): we're really excited today to have our first guest on the Focus Trap podcast.
this is J. Nicole Smith, otherwise known as Nic, and she is someone who has been in my world peripherally for, quite a while. my first awareness of you was because you had a Great Dane and were in photography, and so you kinda hit my radar early. Yeah. and then I, I encountered you again at Animal Image Makers conference, the one where you ended up not being able to do the keynote because I, maybe I should have asked you first if you wanted to talk about that.
your appendix decided that was the moment to, to blow up on you, so Yeah. Um, and then out of that, you ended up, recording the keynote later, and talking about your brand in a week and that's where, that's where we actually connected this was pandemic times.
I was needing some new visuals actually, I'd never really had any branding, so it wasn't really a rebrand. It was a, I need branding, and it's, I, I'm wearing it today or one of them.
And then recently you posted an Instagram reel that resonated with me. and I messaged you and said, "Hey, this sounds like the things we talk about on our podcast.
Would you come on and be a guest?" So that's why you're here today. I'm gonna open the floor to you to, to say anything you wanna start with, and then we'll jump into that reel 'cause I th- I think we wanna talk about that, so...
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Cool. Yeah. I'm buying a little time because literally they started weed whacking right outside my fence, and I'm just like always, always right when you're sitting down to record.
Amy (she/her): Yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I think we're okay now, but, um, oh, such a lovely intro. Thank you. It's so nice to know the history. Yeah, I feel like anywhere there's a Great Dane, I'm like, "We're... You're my people. Clearly you're my people." When they build an entire brand around Great Danes, I know I've really found a friend. But, um, yeah, so quick little backup for anyone who, um, is curious. Basically, I got flown over to the States. I live in the Uk- I'm American, obviously, but I live in the UK, and I got flown over to the States to do a keynote at AIM, at the Animal Image Makers conference. um, at around 11:00 at night before my keynote, I was really uncomfortable, and I realized I'd been uncomfortable all day, and it was the kind of pain where you're like, "Hmm, I'm gonna Google where my appendix is, and if it's on the right side of my body, I should probably go to the emergency room." And I Googled it, and it was, and I did. And, uh, yeah, anyway, I had emergency surgery like five hours later.
so I genuinely was like, "Is there any way I can, like, check out and then come back and do the surgery? 'Cause I'm supposed to be speaking in, like, four hours." Keep in mind, I'd been up all night in the ER. And they're like, "No. Also, your appendix could burst at any moment." I also was like, "Could I fly home and do this surgery in England because free there?" Um, and they're like, "No, no, because your appendix could burst at 30,000 feet. Are you insane?" And I was just like, "Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah." I mean, I was just in a... I was in massive delusion and denial. Anyway, yeah, had the surgery, did not do the keynote. I did come back the next day though, and I did the second speaking gig I was supposed to do in a wheelchair.
But I was like, "I will do an online version. I will do a whole workshop. I will do anything to try and make this up to you.
I'm so sorry." Anyway, yeah. So fast-forward to, um, the reel you mentioned.
Amy (she/her): Yeah
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: last year, I got a neurodivergence diagnosis I was not looking for, which is a whole nother story. Maybe we'll have to do a whole episode about that because, um, yeah, it was fascinating. And I, literally went, uh, away on a Friday feeling quite normal, and came back on the Sunday like, "Oh, okay."
So yeah. And
Amy (she/her): Happened
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: of us who've been through that have that, had that experience of relief and grief and all the weird you go through understanding this new lens. But my, um... it's sort of an unofficial diagnosis, is, um, AuDHD. And so now that I know that, it's only been about a year that I've had that language and I've dived into what does it mean and what does it look like, and then you start seeing everyone around you and you're like, "Oh, you make sense and you make sense and you...
Oh, and you..." Like, I'm like, well, my dad's clearly autistic, and my mom was late diagnosed ADHD at 50. So I was like, well, that explains the AuDHD. Um, and I see little things in my kids, you know? But, um, yeah, there's times where just have to sanity check yourself, right? And go, like, "Is this me or is this..." Am I allowed to swear?
Amy (she/her): Yes. Please do.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Is this me or is this, like, really fucked up? Like, and I genuinely was checking myself 'cause it, I got a... and we'll dive into it, but I got an email from someone that made me feel really bad, and then I was like, "Hmm, this feeling usually means that I am wrong, and I've done something wrong, and I'm being weird and difficult, American in England, or, you know, like really needy or whatever." I genuinely can't tell if this is as bad as I think it is, um, or if I'm being extra sensitive and weird 'cause that's what I do. And so I put it out for the internet to, uh, to their opinion, and yeah, everyone agreed with me that it was pretty, it was pretty off-base
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Oh, for sure. I think I watched it twice 'cause I'm like, I, I just kinda need to absorb all this because it, it had all the feels in it. I mean, your list of is it AuDHD, is it just me being a good business person, is it me being a mom, is it what is it?
And I, I'm like, yeah, I get that, and kind of all of the above. What is, is that an option? Um, but of course me, my AuDHD shows up and goes, "Okay, that's all really, it resonates with me, and when that happens to me, here's what I have done." And, I knew you already had and were going to get lots of, yes, this is valid and all that, and I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna just insert my little, here, this what, this is what worked for me," 'cause
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Helpful tools.
Amy (she/her): Yes,
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: tips.
Amy (she/her): exactly.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Yeah. Great. I love it
Amy (she/her): Um, so then I messaged you and said, "Hey, will you come, come on the podcast?"
Casey, I know your brain is spinning on something. So what, where is your brain taking you in this moment?
Casey (she/her): And for me it's like I'm just kind of thinking about, I mean, uh, relate to everything, yes. Nick and I are just getting to know each other. I think I connected with you via this reel. Amy sent me the reel and was like, "Oh, by the way, she's gonna guest on the show." And I'm like, "G- great."
And then I'm now falling into your circle in the business world and joining, uh, your program that just launched, which we'll talk about later. Um, so I'm like all of a sudden getting this like flood of Nick. Um, so you don't know me as well, but
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: はい。はい。はい。はい。 And
Casey (she/her): when I was 19, and so it like sometimes shows up in... strongly relate to people with autism because of that's like the way my brain shows up a lot with my brain injury. And so I'm just thinking about like all of the ways this impacts our lives, and so it's like you guys were saying, is that, is this the AuDHD? Is this me being sensitive? Is this me being, you know, the American in the wrong country?
Like, all of those things is like, then how do we fucking get anything done? This is like my perpetual
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: we really shouldn't beat ourselves all the time. Yeah
Casey (she/her): I think that's a great question. I think in that moment...
[00:08:40] Is It Me, or Is This Actually Ridiculous?
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J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: So I'll just explain what it was so people listening are not left in the dark. But, um, basically what happened is, I can already feel people relating to this because the rage I felt when this happened I feel is so justified. basically, I went to book my kids into this holiday camp, 'cause it's the summer and I am self-employed and ain't gonna take the whole summer off, also don't want to. Um, 'cause I love my work. And, uh, I went to, I went to book them into this camp. We'd never been there before, but it came recommended, and I was like, "I can't find a website.
I can't find a PDF. I can't find a Facebook post. There's nothing about what they do or what goes on. There... Anything. Just email the nursery manager." And I'm like, "Weird. Okay." It, you know, okay. And then she emailed me back and I was like, "Do you have any info?" She's like, "No. Here's a two-liner of what we do." "Okay." "And here's the schedule." "O- okay." Um, to book them in you just fill this out." Great, cool. Expecting a link, know? Uh, no, no. No, no, no. A five-page Word document. pages.
Amy (she/her): Five. Oh, okay
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: pages. I have two kids, so 10 pages that I had to duplicate, and she's like, "Don't worry, you can just open it up, it's fillable, and then return it."
And I'm thinking, "Okay. Well, first of all I don't have Word," which is a whole separate story because I'm not a huge Microsoft fan. so it won't be fillable for me. second of all, my other option theoretically here is to physically print 10 pages of paper, fill them out with pen, and physically drive them back to you or sit and take pictures with my phone.
Like, I was just like, "Okay, first of all, it is 2026, genuinely, and
Amy (she/her): Yeah
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: do this digitally, like, how are you safeguarding my kids, first of all? Second of all, um, is it unreasonable for me to have expectations that this is easier? Because this is gonna take me a lot of time and energy and effort that I just don't have, Jane.
I just don't care enough." And three, there's like... I, my printer's out of ink. I don't have Word. There's no, like, quick, easy way to do it. I literally opened it up and was like, "Can I do this in Photoshop?" Like, "Should I bring this into Canva?" Like, I was trying to... You know, I'm sure if I was motivated enough I would've found a quick and easy workaround, but I wasn't because I was really resentful that I had to do it in the first place. And my life is busy. Like, I just was... Anyway, I didn't do it, and I wanted to send them on a particular day that their friends were going, and they were taking a trip to Legoland. And then a week before I emailed her again and was like, "Do you still have spots?" And she was like, "No." And I was like, "Cool. It would've been super helpful to have an easier way to book them in.
I would've done it two weeks ago." she sent me the nastiest- Most defensive response. Keep in mind, she does not own this business. She's, like, a nursery manager. Like, so she sh- like, taking it personally maybe isn't the vibe. But, um, yeah, anyway, she basically came back with a, um, "Well, all 80 families who have signed up have managed to do it just fine," and it kind of went on from there. And I remember feeling, like, this immediate shame. just really gut-level, like, "Fuck, she's right."
I put things like this off, because the combination of resentment that I have to, and I have to spend more time than I want, and also not having that easy answer to make it efficient, right? Efficiency's so
Amy (she/her): Oh, yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: efficient, so I can't begin. Um, yeah, so I genuinely put it out there, and I was like, "Is this because, ADHD, American in England, and I just have really unreasonable expectations about things being easy for me, uh, mother or, um, business owner?"
And I genuinely... You can look back. On Nicole's podcast, I have done multiple episodes about a Book Now button. Like, you must take away the friction for people to book in and give you money. That is the number one thing, as a business owner, you can do, and that episode was, like, four years ago. And I'm just like, "Okay, the rest of us have managed to make it easier for our customers, and I spend my whole life doing that.
Like, why don't you?"
Amy (she/her): Yeah. My guess is they don't see it as friction though. They're filling their, their, the field trip. So the friction is, is on our end, your end, and so they don't see it as friction yet
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I think that's another thing about being in England as well. British people do not complain
Amy (she/her): Oh.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I also wonder too though, like how much assuming nobody else is seeing friction? So like do they have a staff person who's now sitting down with Excel and punching all of this shit in by hand,Or like when you said that the, the way she replied to you about like, "Well, the other 80 people did it just fine," how many of them spent three days pulling their hair out? Like, I think this is a thing I see a lot, so used to be ADHD coach is like assume we're the only ones struggling, and not to invalidate that, but like also sometimes there are other people struggling. And so I, I guarantee you I would put money on it that it wasn't just you that struggled to get their kids signed up, or like how many people didn't sign up because they hit that same barrier.
And so there's this like why are we making our business harder, and in that 80 people that did sign up, somebody else had a struggle in there, or there are other people who didn't sign up because of it, and that's frustrating.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: For sure, for sure because the barrier on this form was unbelievable.
I think your point is really valid and, um, I know other people friction, but I think that's, it kind of brings back to that same like shame, doesn't it? Where it's like they got, they figured it out. And sure, there's gonna be people who did not figure it out, obviously.
They were like me and they're like, "No thank you." Like just no.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Like, we
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Yeah, they're invisible, right?
Casey (she/her): people. Yeah, 'cause they're the same then, and, you know, not all of us turn to the internet to vent about what's going on in our lives. There, you know, the select few of us that actually do it. But, like, you saw, like, in your comment section, like, very validated about it. So, like, I love that those of us who do the content creation side of this are sharing that because then those who are usually in their silo, like, there is that little bit like, "Oh, shit, I'm not the only one who can't fill out a five-page form?" like, figure out how to get through all these loopholes to get it done. Whew, I'm not a complete asshole, you know? like,
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Yeah, it was a real moment of awareness, I think, to your guys' point, like, that feeling of the invalidation of, especially when you're newly diagnosed and you're now, like, re-looking at everything your whole life, trying to figure out what is you, what you should feel bad about, and what you should get a free pass for.
You know, like, trying to judge. Um, and certain, you know, certain types of emotional intelligence and stuff, some of us take all the responsibility on us naturally, and some people put all the blame naturally on, uh, on external sources, and that's just kind of an inbuilt thing. It's not, like, a good, bad, whatever.
But I'm one of those people who takes all the blame. I put it all on me. And so I genuinely don't know. Like, you know, we spend our whole life trying to figure out how to act, how to talk, what to say, how to react in any given moment, all that hypervigilance and cue reading and stuff. I was pretty sure that was a, that was a terrible email to receive and that my response of, like, feeling pretty fucked off about it was justified, but I wasn't 100% and that was a pretty extreme situ- I mean, I think looking back now, I look at it, I'm like, "That's so awful."
Like, what a terrible way to react to a custom- potential customer. Like, that's just dreadful. But in the moment, because of that shame, I was like, "This is probably my fault." And especially the interesting one there as well is, like, the American in England bit. I didn't realize how much I'm carrying that way, where it's like I'm always so needy, I'm always so complainy, I'm al- you know, like... And I just don't know what parts of that are because this is genuinely harder for me and I'm annoyed about it or because this is unrealistic, ridiculous behavior that shouldn't be going on. You know? it's so hard to know
Amy (she/her): The reason that Casey and I met was because I went to her for kind of that, to be that person for me that can go, "No, that's not normal." 'Cause I, you know, I had a therapist and that was fine, and that was helpful. But I had gotten to a point where I had an ADHD diagnosis. Um, I actually had, was, um, did a dual assessment and the assessor said, "No, you don't have autism because you're too, your, your people skills are too good.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Social. You can do
Amy (she/her): You're too social." And I'm, I'm,
Casey (she/her): you've
Amy (she/her): I'm like, "Oh,
Casey (she/her): to
Amy (she/her): yes, yes,
Casey (she/her): Fuck.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: your
Amy (she/her): So yeah.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: depends on it. Mm-hmm. Yeah
Amy (she/her): Yeah. So Casey and I have spent a lot of time unwinding a- all of that, you know, what is normal, what is not, what of, what am I taking on for myself that I don't need to take on for myself anymore. Um, we joke that I came to her for help with my email because I'm like, I just, I will go literally at that point it was a week or two without checking it because I was just, my nervous system was terrified of what I might find in there.
Um, which of course made it worse.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I literally just did a reel like two weeks ago about like things I'm reframing as late diagnosed ADHD about email because there is so, there's so much in email.
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): Ja. Jo.
Amy (she/her): So I, uh, but yeah, that, that idea of I don't know what, I don't know which way's up at this point, and so, you know, working with someone who, who can usually point me to which way's up has been so valuable.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her): Well, and discerning
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): what is worth reframing versus what is just fucking ridiculous is that's one that I see a lot of people, especially in the newer phases of diagnose. Like, I started this process 20-some years ago with my brain injury, was like, what is just this being unreasonable and I get to be upset about this situation? And what is this I need to reframe how I interact with society or how I interact with school? Like, at that point I was going back and finishing my, my bachelor's degree and getting my master's. Like, I had to learn how to read again, and there was kind of this process of like, "This isn't fair. I have a brain injury.
I shouldn't be held to these expectations." But also like, "I guess it's a master's program. I should probably read the book." Like, know, but also some of that came down to like I had the confidence to sit down with a couple of my professors and be like, "Here's my struggle. Where can we find an in between?"
And one was like, "Suck it up, read the fucking book," and the other was like, "Don't worry about it. We'll make it work." You know? And so that is such a big learning curve when you're parenting know, for you the parenting, navigating a different culture, society expectation, running your businesses, running multiple businesses, not even focusing on one business, but running across multiple businesses with like multiple business partners, and like all that different energy and like that constant how do I reframe this?
How do I maintain this? Am I in the wrong? If I'm in the wrong, how do I correct it without taking the blame and shame, and then reframe it so I don't do it again? Like, it's never-ending process. Yeah
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I did a master's degree in the UK in a new system, um, and it was mostly international studient- students in the program,And so we would do like group project stuff together, but several of them could not English, very well, so we'd have to present and like it was a really interesting journey of like abilities and how to manage group dynamics with multiple cultures. And, um, so I have no idea what it's like to have a traumatic brain injury, but I do know what it's like to navigate a master's program with some really interesting curve balls.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: And I think like there's two things that came up for me there. One was back to emotional intelligence. I did my emotional intelligence profile a couple years ago and was very delighted at first to see that like my joy and my love are extremely high, and my anger is very, very low. And I was like, well, at first I'm like, "Whew, that's a relief." I'm like building a brand around joy. Woo. That, that tracks. Um, and then as I was looking at it and sitting with it, I was like, "Hmm, there's something really interesting about this." And then when I spoke with the coach who walked me through it, she was like, "Um, this is a trauma profile." And as soon as she said that, I was like, "Oh," 'cause I could see how it looked so much like fawning, right? Where it's just like, I'm just gonna be nice and people please, and be whatever I need to be, and hypervigilant, whatever, and I'm never, ever, ever gonna get mad. And mad is bad, and we don't do mad. Um, and so like genuinely the homework that she gave me was like, "You need to get in touch with more anger, and you need to learn how to express it." I think this, this process is like, you know, the layers of the emotional intelligence, neurodivergence, all those things, being a woman, being like all these, all these things like, I think there's probably so many of us that really need to get in touch with our anger and figure out how to express it, because we just spend all this time doing this dance, right?
And then ending up in that situation where we genuinely don't know when we are allowed to be angry.
So I think there's- Some really interesting, like, emotional intelligence stuff there. Um, and I forgot the other thing I was gonna say, of course, because perimenopause brain. So we'll,
Amy (she/her): We- welcome, welcome to the group, yes. Actually, I, I'm, I'm laughing at the fact, or I laughed at the fact that, um, y- when you said group project, both Casey and I flinched.
Casey (she/her): A visceral reaction.
Amy (she/her): like, "Oh," because I ju-
Casey (she/her): Nope.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Hard pass
Amy (she/her): hi, yeah
Casey (she/her): by myself, for myself, and have not hired a team yet.
Amy (she/her): Yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Hard pass.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
[00:22:59] Maybe More Information Isn’t the Answer
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Amy (she/her): I also will tell you that when you were still in the phase of dropping really s- you know, vague, vague hints, I messaged Casey and said, "If it's anything to do with marketing, I'm in." She's kinda like, "Kinda same."
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): want you to know how effective all of that... I mean, granted, I had the previous connection with you.
Um, but all of that was so effective and so interesting to watch, both as a business owner who I thought that's what I needed, but also just to observe it from the outside and going, "This is a master class in how to build desire and, and how to sell something." And I'm like, "I, I don't know how to do this yet."
Um, but I think the thing that was so intriguing, um, Nicole sent out an email that hinted at the whole bringing everything together. Like, it wasn't pieces, it wasn't piecemeal. It was a whole system, and that's something that Casey and I have been talking about in terms of my photography and, and the coaching that I do.
so when you and Nicole are talking about, we have this idea and it's to kind of synthesize all this stuff, I, I mean, that was the moment when I'm like, "Oh, there's something going on."
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: yeah, I think what's happening right now, in my opinion, my humble opinion, is that what is working for those of us who've been selling stuff online for a decade, that n- you know, the, the value of the 1,000 to $3,000 course is gone, basically.
That evaporated overnight, and now it's either done for you or bite-size. Everyone wants something between 27 and $199 one quick problem and gives you one quick result. And there's something about that I kind of love, because I feel like we're going back to a time when things were affordable and accessible to more people, which is great. Um, but what's happening when that occur, and then of course all AI, we've got a rise of, you know, communities building because we're all so separated, and, what's happening for all these business owners who are scrolling and buying of these things every s- you know, three months or something, is that now you have six different ad strategies and 100 different social strategies and da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and these are all brilliant people giving you brilliant tidbits to put you into a funnel to sell you more stuff, which is a brilliant business model. what I know from teaching marketing for 20 years is that That is not the point. It is not the point, and there are some businesses who can take one or two of those things and run with them and solve all the problems and make it work and then figure out the rest. But the type of business owners I've always worked with, who I now know are probably all neurodivergent, not know that until, you know, a year ago.
Like, okay, the penny has dropped in terms of why I build the way I do and what matters to me and why I'm obsessed with the things I'm obsessed with, because they work better for me, um, is that I don't know many business owners that that kind of fragmentation is helpful for. But if you are ADHD, AuDHD, if you struggle with focus anyway, my Lord, like you are gonna struggle to turn that into something useful.
Meanwhile, you're gonna feel worse and worse about yourself because you've now spent money on all these things that are really good strategies that are working for other people apparently. Why can't it... Why can't you make it work? I just, having helped business owners for so long, that is such a, a timeless sentiment, is like it works for them, why can't I make it work for me? And so Nicole and I sat down, and we looked at all our clients who had had the most success over the last decade plus, and we were like, "What was their formula?" Not what do we think it is, not what we have, have we been teaching, not h- what do we assume is what they need, but what has worked for these people who have fundamentally changed their lives to the thing they wanted to achieve? The point is the plan and the one-to-one container that helps you execute the plan, the community that helps you not be alone and feel supported and keep you there while you create consistency, and creating other tools and resources that make consistency possible when consistency is the hardest possible thing for you to fucking do, which two hands up, that's me.
Amy (she/her): Reach, yes.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: and so yeah, that's, that's what we're building. But I think there's also a really important element that is about the social container, the, s- the shared social space, and I think we're all kind of looking at what a new definition of community looks like. I think we're all just right on the edge of revolution and starting to understand like how to get resourced locally in our neighborhood to like, you know, fight back. Um, we are in a very different time in the world, and so I think community matters more than ever. The guru influencer era is done. We're done with that. We're moving into a new era, and the more ownership and co-creation we can do with communities of, of like-minded people, the better, and so that's what, that's what we're trying to do.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. And that's so, that's such a parallel to the conversation, the private conversations that Casey and I have had about how do I want my business to look,
I mean, I have a library of 10 years of teaching that now I am starting to sort through and go, "Let me pull out the threads of this
and pull it all together." And, um, but that idea that it's not... I can go and learn photography from YouTube, from, uh, you know, AI.
I can find all the little bits and pieces. Even if I'm not buying little mini courses from people, I can find bits and pieces and kind of scaffold up this, this photography thing. But the people that I see succeed, like you were talking about with you and Nicole, the people that succeed are the ones that, get in and, like, do all the things.
They know their foundation skills. They know how to do composition. They know how to post-process. I've been, I've been in this business for 25 years.
There's gotta be some reasons why I'm still around, And so trying to leverage all of that and say, "Let's, let's build this together," um, but making it about the group calls, and the, um, the shared community rather than about go take this course.
And so it, it just, all, everything you've been saying and talking about with your program has resonated so heavily with me.
Casey (she/her): I, I'm excited. I love the concept because I feel like there's this, like you were saying, this movement away from courses that has been slowly dying. Uh, I love a course because I love having all of it pulled into one place, but raging ADHD, and so I'm a course hopper. I'm, I'm in one of Nicole's programs right now, and you can't get to this point until you unlock this point, and I'm like, "Ugh, but I wanna see that point."
You know? Like, courses that make me go through it in order, love-hate relationship. But I realized then for me is, like, there's the ADHD, and so, like, continuing to come back to the course after I get through the first module or two. And so, like, adding somebody who's, like, looking over my shoulder or there's a group call and I can check in, and is, like, for me, what I'm looking for in anything, any kind of business growing community, learning photography, all of this stuff, where it hits all the different angles of, like, my neurodivergence.
And it's so funny 'cause the more I'm in this space, I'm like, oh, there are, like, and, like, titles and competition. There's so much. This is such a big ecosystem. And I'm like, that's cool and also overwhelming, so have a community to come to and start to connect with other people who are doing pet photography I know you've got a handful of pet photographers in the group. I think society as a whole is coming back to this, of like, we realize that just the material, just the learning wasn't quite enough, and the small pieces versus big pieces, paid information versus free info- like, it's kinda not about the information. so I love when we can pull all of the other elements together, and then, like, actually... And also something that I'm committed to for 12 months, so I can't change my mind in three months and take a left turn and go
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: That's why we did it that way.
Casey (she/her): Yeah-huh. Yep.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Not an accident.
Casey (she/her): I figured it wasn't
[00:31:11] Beyond the Information Era
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J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Yep. Yeah, yeah. Oh man, so much in what you said there. I think, um, you know, the internet gave us the information age, right? And bless it. Like, what a cool time to be alive. What a cool, you know, it was great being an elder millennial and being on the threshold of that change. Like, starting in, you know, 35 millimeter film and moving to digital in high school, you know, it was a, it was rad.
It was so cool. but now, C- Canva did a big presentation a while ago, and they talked about, their big pitch was about the fact that we're moving into the imagination era out of the information era, and I really like that. I think that that really resonated with me, where it's like we are no longer required to be intelligent, to memorize facts, to take tests.
But you know, there is so much value in humanity and creativity and imagination and emotional intelligence and all, all these things that we are as, as human beings.
And think what we're gonna start to see, of course, is that capitalism and commerce and the way we all evolve and pivot is gonna reflect that. And so for me, for example, I've become so intolerant of anything that doesn't give me, like, an AI tool to implement because I'm like, "I don't wanna read and I don't wanna listen.
I'm in a hurry. I want the result. Just let me answer questions and get the thing. That's what I want." So that's what I've built, because I'm like, I don't wanna watch 27 videos before I can then do a workbook, before I can then have the result that I want. I wanna just do it now. I want like that scene in The Matrix where you can just like plug your brain in, get the download, get it in 30 minutes, and then do kung fu.
You know? Like, I, I, I don't, I don't... Like, the journey oftentimes is not for me. I love learning. I love learning. If I, like, I would do a PhD. Like, I love learning. I do not love learning under pressure while I'm trying to run a business. Like, those are different outcomes for me. Like, they're different purposes. so when we need outcomes, I want it quickly, and I think we're gonna see all kinds of really interesting ways that- The courses and containers and stuff that we build evolve. But for me, there's not gonna be anything more important than community. I think that is something that I am tripling down on because and in-person experiences are the two things that I think are absolutely, absolutely critical. And my personal mission is around joy, and that comes from the work in anti-racism that I've done over the last five years and realizing that, man, we get defensive when difficult conversations arise. Boy, do we spend a lot of time and energy being really fucking defensive about whether or not we're racist or whether or not we're bigoted or whether or not our opinions about... Like, who cares? Let's just assume we're all racist. We all grew up in the same containers. We've all been programmed with the same terrible shit and systems. Like, let's just start from that point and then build something better. Like, why are we spending all this time? And so, my secret stealth mission under all of this, under the joy, under the color psychology stuff I do, is to build bridges to have conversations that seem really nice and cheerful 'cause they're about color and joy, but actually they're getting us tolerant of being uncomfortable and, and trying new things and extending ourselves into spaces where we are not comfortable so that we can have more and more difficult conversations, and we are filled up with joy instead of fear.
So when those conversations come, we can approach with curiosity and with interest and with a, "Boy, I never thought of it that way," instead of complete shutdown and running back to our side of the table. So I think there's, there's so much wrapped up in these changes, but a lo- maybe a lot more than you bargained for in the program as well.
Amy (she/her): I, I think I was, I think I was looking for something like that though. I mean, I think I've been... I mean, there's this external of I wanna build the, the coaching piece of my business. I, I wanna learn to be a marketer, it just enough to, you know, build the business.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Well done.
Amy (she/her): but to get it done. Um, but I n- I want something that's deeper than that.
And so, and again, that's just one of those things that I, I don't know that I could have articulated that, but when it was coming out in both the, the pre-launch stuff and then in your, your launch webinar, it's like, yeah, this is... I want it to matter. I want it to matter more than just, oh, so and so can use their camera better.
Um, that's why the nervous system stuff for me is so important. That's, and then that's why I connected so strongly with what you're talking about, that, you know, this... Because it has been such a shit show of, how am I supposed to do a business while the world is burning down around me?
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Yeah, It's been years coming. I think I mentioned on the call, like, I've been just like I think all of us have been, sitting in that room alone going, "I've got to do something, but what? I've got to do something, but what? is it? What is my thing?" And I've been, I've been sitting with that and playing with that and testing that and, and, um, I think ultimately the, the color was the answer for me.
That is my bridge that I can build that makes it easy for people to step into a conversation that, you know, feels really safe, safe and superficial and then gets real deep real quick.
Amy (she/her): Also a neurodivergent thing.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Yeah, yeah. For sure.
[00:36:28] What Changes When You Finally Have the Language?
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Casey (she/her): So I do have a question for Nick that is kind of a left turn here. Um,
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Okay
Casey (she/her): I'm good at doing just sharp left turns. Is, I know, so you're like a year into this AuDHD realization. Has there been some big changes? Have there been some noticeable changes in how you make decisions and how you're running your business? 'cause we were talking a little bit about like how this shows up in day-to-day life, but like, and specifically 'cause we've been talking about business and you running multiple businesses and, um, of entrepreneurship versus like this last year, you seeing the ways and how is that, or like intentional decisions in this realization phase?
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Oh, such a good question. Um, I think, I think about this kind of like the design and color stuff where I only got into deep into color psychology when I did my master's in 2012, and then I, like, doubled down a couple years after that. So I spent a decade before that building brands without knowledge in color psychology, and then built all of my brands around a basis built deeply in archetypes and color psychology, psychology, psychology, psychology, um, after that. And, um When I looked back at the brands that I had already built not knowing the details of color harmony, I realized many, many, many of those brands were inherently very harmonious because I didn't know, I didn't have the language for color harmony and I didn't have the hex codes and the specific groups.
I, I, I had good instincts. not perfect, but pretty good. And I think most designers are that way, right? Designers and creatives tend to be quite intuitive in that way. And I think about this AuDHD thing the same way,
I am very experienced in a lot of types of business. Um, I had to do something to survive all that, right? I had to do something to be able to create revenue, to be able to sustain products, to be able to hold spaces for client... Like, I had to function. And so I think a bit like kind of having natural instincts for color, you do, find ways to adapt to whatever it is that you find difficult and, and survive.
it also radicalized me into wanting to help other entrepreneurs because I figured some stuff out.and I started trying to, you know, pattern recognition. Like, them into containers where I could give people those things and say, "I would try this because this didn't work for me.
I would try this," or, "I would avoid that," or, "Maybe skip this, and maybe let yourself off the hook a little for that," I figured it out the way I figured it out. But it was only last year that I had... Like, and actually it's only the last couple of months where I've actually, like, f- like, had the realization, like, it's not just me. It is the way I've built everything I've built. So when I built this membership in 2016, when I built that planner in 2017, when I, you know, created containers and wrote programs and was insistent on the way I designed my curriculum, of that- was neurodivergent friendly because to me it was like an absolute no-brainer.
We're going in right now and finishing off the circle group that is the container for this program, and the things I'm obsessive about are very weird. Like, we absolutely cannot have this, and we must have this, and the, we have to have buttons, and we can't have... Like, just like you, we must have something to read, and we must have something to listen to, and da, da, da.
Like, we must have colorful banners because if there's no color signaling, I don't know where I am. Like, um, so answer your question, I would say I'm sure there are, but I think I've been doing them a l- I did them, a lot of those things for a really long time, and I didn't know what they were called or I didn't know why I was doing them. And it's only now that I'm putting language to the fact that like if your brain is hyper-connected, if you're extremely sensitive. I always thought that was like a woman thing or a pet industry thing or a this thing or a that thing, and it's like, oh yeah, it's also, it's neurodivergence. That's what it is.
Like, that's a big part of it, is having language to like understand. And now that I've got the language, it allows me to create and find community in a way I never have before because it's like now that I have the, that label, AuDHD, I don't... Like, I am who I am. It doesn't change who I am, but it gives me a way to identify other people who know who they are now and know that they work this way.
And also you realize, I'm sh- I'm curious if you guys have had this experience. You realize that you like is neurodivergent, and you're like, "Who are these neurotypical people and do they exist?" Or they do, they just not exist in my world because I don't like them and I, I move away from them very quickly.
I don't know, but it's so funny isn't it?
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yeah, I, I've, I am married to a neurotypical. I have lo- tried to figure out my husband every which way up, down, and left to figure out why I'm attracted to him, and have been with him for 17 years, because we are the complete opposites. He is neurotypical. He is so logic-driven. He's a lo- a, an engineer through and through. He's been with the same company for 27 years. Um, I am not. exist. I can vouch for that.
I love what you're saying though about, like, you were already intuitively building that way, so there hasn't been this radical change in, your business dynamics after. And I'd love to circle back around to that, as a, point to any of, my past clients who might ever see this episode. Fucking trust yourself, I see this all the time, and I know Amy and I have had these conversations where, like, I'm like, "What feels right to you?" It's like, "Well, I wanna do X, Y, and Z."
I'm like, "Great, then do it that way." "But society says I should do X, Y, and Z." You know? And it's like, there's so much pressure. I think that additional pressure of being a woman, um, you know, building a business the right way, the hustle culture, productivity, capitalism, all of it contrasts so sharply with the realities of neurodivergence.
A lot of us also then have, other, physical things that are going on. Trust yourself. And so if, like, one way feels and doesn't fit and feels full of friction, fucking try something else. Because, in theory, this is perfect. When you realize it, isn't this radical life change.
Now it's just language for shit you were already doing, and I just, I love that you were already seeing that and that you've built everything this way.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Hmm. That's such a lovely reflection. I think I was gifted, as many of us who become entrepreneurs inherently are, otherwise we would never, ever, ever, ever take it on. I was gifted with a bit of that rebel, spirit. Um, and part of that, again, some of these things come from trauma, right? Like, I think because of the way my business started and the way things went for me, I was just like, "Well, I got nothing to lose. I have nothing, so I've got nothing to lose." And, you know, neurodivergence having really high, high impulsivity and, like, extreme tolerance for extreme risk doesn't always work out, and that bit sucks.
Casey (she/her): Угу
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I think one of the things that I bring to the table that I've noticed is that I am willing to really take some pretty major risks.
I'm willing to do things that are a bit crazy, a bit fast, a bit... And, and that has helped me so much. Um, I've realized that the people who end up in my world end up there because there's a level of, like, they call, like, bravery or that it's, like, there's courage there. And, you know, I had parents who were entrepreneurs.
I had it modeled for me. had, you know, that feeling of having nothing to lose. There were so many things that supported my ability to do insane things. I've also paid a lot of really intense consequences that most people would never accept. And so, like, that's part of the story, you know? And I try and tell that story as often as I can because it's not all, like, roses and daisies.
Like, I've had insane levels of debt. I've had broken up partnerships. I have, I have been through so many really challenging things, and it is so it. It is so worth it to not stay in that space where you feel like you can't because you're not allowed. And I have to tell myself I'm allowed to do things all the time, stupid things.
Amy (she/her): Yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: noticed in my life I struggle to drink water. I really struggle to drink water. I don't know if this is, like, a neurodivergent thing. It must be, I feel like, 'cause it's so weird to me. Like, I struggle to brush my teeth.
Casey (she/her): It
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: like, I like... So the things that are hard for me sometimes real basic. The things that are easy for me are the things that seem really hard to other people.
So I think, like, we all find our, like, our ease in different ways. I would just say, like, you know, that it's so easy for us to say, you know, "Trust yourself," and, and it's so easy to- I- i- it's so easy to understand it empirically, right? But that putting yourself out there when you already feel vulnerable, like that is the thing I've noticed with my clients is the 100% the hardest thing for them to do. And I think things like marketing, things like social media, things like having your face on your brand because you sell an in-person service, things like a rebrand where now, like Amy's brand is a great example. Like, you are taking something that was invisible and putting it right in the middle of your entire brand, and you have to talk about it, and wear the T-shirt, and put it on the homepage of your website.
Like, that moment where you have to publish that website, a lot of people will never do it, even if they paid five figures for their brand, because it's too scary. And so that, that moment, that thing you're talking about is really real. So if your feeling that, I just wanna say, like, you are not alone, 'cause everyone I've ever... I've felt it, and everyone I've ever worked with has felt it, and you just gotta, you just find ways to get yourself past it
Casey (she/her): 100%.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I- in those ways are not like anybody else's, imperfect, stop-starty. Um, they might feel like wild, crazy workarounds. I love the thing I've been seeing you do, Casey, with like the taking one things off the board. Like,
Casey (she/her): Yep.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: that's brilliant. That's so brilliant. Whatever it takes
Casey (she/her): yeah, I just was so stuck and I'm like, "I've got this giant to-do list. I know the fundamentals of building a business. I've done this multiple times," and I just could not take action. And I'm reading a book, and she talks about tiny experiments, and I was like, "Oh, I can do that, and I get to play with a whiteboard and sticky notes, so bonus points." And it's working, and I'm, like, cheating. I'm actually ahead, so some of these things I got, like, three things done yesterday. They're all getting filmed as separate videos.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Hell yes.
Casey (she/her): the rules.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Absolutely. More content
Casey (she/her): got me out of my brain, and all of a sudden now some things are clicking, some actions are happening. And, like, weird? I- did I have a business coach literally two days ago tell me I'm doing it wrong? Absolutely yes. I take her advice? Absolutely no.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: a great business coach, in my opinion.
Casey (she/her): No, not my coach. Like, if, yes, if you are my business coach, I'm not talking about you.
I'm talking about a different person that I ran into that does not know my whole
[00:47:26] Your Business Is an Experiment, Not Your Baby
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J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I love that you said that about experiments as well, 'cause that was one of my early learnings and something that I like put in through the early phase of everything, that I still say all the time, is that your business is not your baby, it is an experiment. Because we hold it so tight. Like, we're just like so afraid to screw up, we're so perfectionistic about it, we're like so like desperate to... it's just like you, yeah, you gotta, you gotta hold it gently, hold it lightly, and it like you're in the lab, and just like next, next, next. And I feel like so many people have talked about this in so many ways. I know one year Amy Porterfield was doing a thing where she was like, "I'm gonna do like 100 failures, 100 mistakes, 100..."
I forget what it was, but basically screwing up 100 times was her goal instead of any other metric. And I was like, "I love that. What a great thing to model for people who are struggling." Like, 'cause it's all of us, right? We all struggle with that freeze perfectionism, getting out of our own way. That is, I think that's part of the conversation that I want to be having out loud in public, is that if you feel like you're wrong or bad because it's not working for you, you are the majority. You are the majority. You are not the 1% who has made this one thing work and run with it. And also, the things that people are talking about, they might have built different environments in completely different times. People talking about building things on Instagram, I'm like, "When did you do that?
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: it this year, or was it six years ago?" 'Cause those are very different. I built a Facebook group that went from 12,000 to 60,000 in six months with no ads. That was in 2009 when you could still do that
Amy (she/her): Yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Like, if I went to teach that strategy now, it would be absurd. So yeah, I think getting, having that thing in your, in your body, in your mind that says like, "I am normal.
I am the majority. This lived experience I'm having is the, is totally realistic and normal." So if that's true, what now? What next? What does that mean? What do I do with that? Um, rather than just spin out.
Casey (she/her): Yes. I love that.
Amy (she/her): Which is kind of where I'm at, so this is all very good.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Well, hopefully our room will be very, very helpful for that
Amy (she/her): Oh, I already, I know it's going to be. Yeah.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Also Paper. Paper things.
Amy (she/her): Yeah
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: my favorite fancy, fancy business strategy for growing revenue of all time? This is 20 years, all those businesses I mentioned, like my favorite one I've ever done Fill in a thermometer.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: thermometer, set your goal at the top, break it into your halfway point and your get some pretty colors, and fill it in as you go in the month.
And the desire to fill it up is so strong that you start realizing you've actually only got this much of a gap at the top that you could fill. You could get there, and you start getting very creative about how you're gonna fill that gap because you have to color it in.
Casey (she/her): I used to
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: My
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): They're little cash bags, and for like every couple grand you get a color and a bag, and it was that s- same kind of thing with like goals marked on it. And it was like, "Okay, how many, how many cash bags do I get to fill in on this check-in?"
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Absolutely. I don't even care if that makes me same level as my five-year-old. Like, it works. It works for me, and I do it every month because it's so motivating, and it gives me a ritual, and then at the end of the month, I get to see if I filled it up or not, and I'm in my Stripe account like, do, do, do, do, do, do, Um, and yeah, I think sometimes, times, the simple stuff is, is
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): Yep. Love it
Amy (she/her): Yeah. But having a guide to get you to that point is also better than just
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Absolutely. And that's,
Amy (she/her): it out on your own
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: know, 100%. And we talk about this, um, as the above, around, and below support. And I realized probably back in, right before I had kids, so like 2018, I was doing another one of those, like, what works? What is working? What is it? and that was one of the big things that came up, is there's...
I think there's, like, three types of support you need in your business. You need above support, a mentor, a coach, someone who has been there, can see it for you, and just gives you the plan and holds you accountable to that plan. That is the fastest way. That's how Olympians do it, right? That is how elite athletes do it.
That is how anyone who tries to get somewhere fast, somewhere hard, does it. Um, and then the around support, the mastermind buddy, the accountability buddy, the community, the group, the, the free container that actually cares and helps. And then the below support, where there is someone taking shit off your plate.
At some point,
Amy (she/her): Yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: seems to be one of the hardest ones for business owners, it, it's always been hard for me, that one's really hard. That one is really hard. And so if you're listening and you're a business owner and you've struggled with that, I want to give you an assignment. And it's not as hard as it sounds. If you've never hired anyone, I want you to hire a cleaner. I want you to get someone to clean house.
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Okay. So box tick, that's your first one.
Amy (she/her): Yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: one is a bookkeeper, someone who does the books.
Amy (she/her): Just got that this, within the last six months
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: New people who do something you don't wanna do
Amy (she/her): Yes
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: you. Easy to delegate.
Amy (she/her): Yes.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: You're
Amy (she/her): Those,
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Amy
Casey (she/her): I love that
Amy (she/her): I'm grateful for my mom for modeling that because I grew up in a very middle class house. My parents, um, were both teachers, so not huge incomes, and eventually when my brother and I were both in high school and my mom was back to working full time, she did hire a house cleaner.
Casey (she/her): I always think about my business. I'm like, I, I mean, I have ideas about eventually hiring someone to help me, but it feels big, it feels far down the road. It like, uh, control issues and being used to always being a solopreneur. But I have a house cleaner, and I
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): function in life without her.
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): yeah, I
J.Nichole Smith (Nic) she/her: I think there's, there's two things that really happen there. One is thinking about the feeling of walking back into your house when it's clean and you didn't do it. That feeling, you need to get that feeling in your business as soon as possible, and you need to be willing to go through the discomfort to get there because it's not always rosy, which is why we don't do it. the first thing. And the second thing is, if you listen to anyone who's had any kind of success, one of the top things they will always say is get help sooner than you think you should. Get s- get help before you think you can afford it, get help before you think you need it, because if you can establish yourself as a business owner who knows how to delegate, communicate, like hand things off, you will grow easier and faster.
And if you want to feel joy and freedom in this business of yours, an un- it's a non-negotiable. It's non-negotiable.
Most people start in their business where their money is more valuable than their time, and we will do anything to not spend money. sometimes we stay in that stage too long. Most of the time, we stay in that stage too long. But at some point, you'll do probab- maybe in my world, a minimum viable revenue per hour, uh, exercise, and you'll figure out if you wanna make this revenue goal, what an hour of your time is actually worth. And anything less than that, you will d- If, if you can hire that thing out for less than what you need to make in that hour, then you start doing that because you realize you're never gonna make this goal if you keep taking on these activities that are, you know, $100 an hour things that you could pay $10 an hour to have someone else do, you start building that leverage in.
And then you start to realize that actually your time is more valuable than your money, and it should be because it's a finite resource. Money isn't. There's always more money, but time, that's finite. And that's the on- the only way you learn that is in your own body and bones. Like no one, you know, 100 people can tell you that, but until you figure that out for yourself and what it feels like to actually do that, gosh, it's, it's a journey.
But, um, that minimum viable revenue per hour thing is really helpful, I think, to make it very plain, very clear about what you want versus what you are not willing to try. And, um, and, you know, when you start building a really big business, you will do... You-- People are just buying their time back left and right.
They will do anything to pay money rather than give time because they value their time so much more highly because it's finite, and they wanna spend it with their kids and relaxing and, you know, having a nice meal. They don't wanna- spend it in, in the minutia. So I think there's definitely that, like, valuing your time piece that is something we wanna try and do earlier rather than later, even when the revenue isn't, you know, there yet
having a really strong brand and building that into a culture, um, means that you start, you start finding and choosing people based on what they believe and what they care about, and they choose you.
ultimately if you can find people who care the way that you care about the thing you're trying to do in the world, um, that is gonna help you get round a lot of those, a lot of those team problems.
Amy (she/her): Well, that seems like a good place to maybe kinda wrap it up. I'm, I'm sure we could sit here for hours and just have conversations like this, 'cause this is, this is like life. This is so good.
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