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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan and I'm joined with Declan and we have a very special guest joining us today. So this episode is going to be a little bit different in that we're going to be talking about the women of heated rivalry. So we're going to be covering content from all six episodes. So if you haven't caught up on all the episodes, just bear that in mind.
So speaking of our special guest, we are joined by Ren Browne, who is the author of The Crush, Adversity, and the soon to be published Providence. And she also has a podcast called Shelf Aware. So thank you so much for joining us on the podcast, Ren.
Ren Browne (00:40)
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm always looking for an excuse to talk about this show more. So, you know, clearly.
Silvan (00:47)
And so how I found you was purely on TikTok. And I just loved your posts and how deep and thoughtful they were. And the analysis just blew me away. I remember talking to Declan very early on. like, how do we get Ren on the podcast? Is she going to say yes?
Ren Browne (00:55)
Thank you.
Yes, yeah, I did. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I love, well, I love smartly written characters, but I think this show is such a rare combination of all of these different things that I love. And I think I recorded that first video after I watched episode four.
and I was like possessed by this show and I just started talking and then I couldn't stop and now I've been talking for weeks now and I'm still not stopping. So, but yeah, no, it's consumed my existence basically at this point. So.
Declan (01:37)
everyone's the same at the minute. It's kind of consumed everyone. It's never stopped. Like my TikTok feed has not changed from Holl under edits in weeks it ⁓ just keeps going and they keep on getting more detailed and then yeah and I think the more the actors are sort of like doing stuff and doing press the worse it gets because they're just as charming as the characters and now I'm just I can't get rid of it.
Ren Browne (01:40)
Yeah.
No.
And there's new stuff. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
They totally are, yeah.
I think too, like now you have other countries getting it for the first time. So it's like, I think it's actually even building a little bit more because you've got new countries, not that people haven't been watching on the down low, but like you getting new people exposed to it. And so, yeah, it just, it seems like it just keeps building.
Declan (02:09)
Thank
Bye bye.
Silvan (02:19)
to quote Ilya, this is a problem I don't want to go away.
Ren Browne (02:23)
ever, ever, ever, yeah.
Silvan (02:27)
But so rather than Ilya, what I wanted to talk to you was about the women in the show. I feel like the women are written so well and they have such a large presence on the show that I really wanted to do a deep dive on this and specifically with you as well because you have such a good take on all these different characters.
Ren Browne (02:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, and the women are something I haven't talked about yet. So I think I was very excited to talk about them. I think I have so much to say that I haven't edited it into those little three minute videos yet. So yeah, happy to talk about it.
Silvan (03:06)
So what were your impressions of the female characters written into the show?
Ren Browne (03:15)
I mean, I really have loved the way the women have been written on the show. think that they're all very, I love that they all have very distinct personalities. Like they're not just like a monolith. They're all like their own people. They're all their own, you know, they all have their own quirks and their own things that they're dealing with. But ⁓ I also love that they haven't really been written as, none of them are written as like.
enemies or competition really. mean, I know that Ilya gets jealous of Rose, but like, I mean, it's, I mean, they're not written as, ⁓ like foils, so it's anything. And I think that, ⁓ I love that the way that they've all been written as really strong characters, not, not un flawed characters, but like strong characters, which I, I like to see that especially for female characters. So.
Declan (04:01)
Yeah, I think just to add to that, you know, a lot of M.M. Romance books and sort of that sort of content, TV shows centered around queer characters, they will typically try to use the woman as obstacles to keep the main pair apart. And they chose not to really do it that way in this book. Now, obviously, there are elements of that in sort of Rose's relationship with Shane.
Ren Browne (04:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Declan (04:28)
But that's also like a situation of Shane's own making. So we can't even put that on Rose. And because she's also such a three dimensional and likeable character, you sort of just put the blame on Shane for that. But in general, yeah, yeah, like she's the one with the intelligence to go, actually, I'm going to back away from here. By the way, are you gay? And that just seemed to work for her. But yeah, in general, the way in which the women are depicted in the show.
Ren Browne (04:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, she kind of excuses herself out of it. Yeah. Yeah.
you
Declan (04:57)
You get the sense that, you know, Jacob Tierney did not want any of them to be demonized. He didn't want any of them to be like, shown in an overly negative light as just these tools of the plot and actually gave them personalities and roles to play in the story that aren't just, I'm going to put you in the middle of these two and just have everyone fight about it.
Ren Browne (05:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think it's, I think the other thing I really like is that you can tell he was very conscious of like, at no point are the female characters giving them permission, but they're telling, cause it's not their permission to give. It's not, that's not their role. But like, I think what I like is that in each case, the characters told, you know, their male counterpart, like kind of like what they needed to hear to give themselves permission. And I let even that dynamic I think was written in a really smart.
way and I appreciated that they kept to that versus like feeling like well let me tell you how you should do this. It's like no it's like let me give you the information and then you kind of do with it as you will. ⁓ I thought that was actually written really smart too.
Silvan (06:08)
I think what I really liked is that each of these female characters were written as such a great counterpart to the male characters. And they complemented them so well. Like you couldn't pair Rose with Ilya, for example. He would eat her alive.
Ren Browne (06:15)
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
That's so true. I mean, they're really kind of... No, I think you're right though. mean, because she's a perfect pairing for Shane. And I think the thing is, is like they're almost written in a very similar way to like when you write romantic pairings of like their strengths and weaknesses need to compliment each other. And I think in that way, you have these friendships written in a very similar way. And I think that's really smart, even though they're not.
Silvan (06:25)
That sounded really bad, but...
Ren Browne (06:50)
I mean, Shane and Rose are for a little bit romantic and Ilya and Svetlana have like a friends with benefits situation. like the thoughtfulness of their friendships also really mean that they strengthen each other. think was really, it was really good to see because I think that's they do in each case, they tell them what they need to hear in the way they need to hear it versus I agree with you. think if I think Rose to Ilya would not, it wouldn't go like.
Ilya needed somebody like Svetlana who's like, I know you and I know what you're doing and this is how we're going to have this conversation. so, yeah, no, I completely agree. I completely agree.
Declan (07:27)
That's a really good point that they're kind of the perfect women for them if they were to be in a romantic pairing. Like Svetlana is exactly the kind of woman that you could expect Ilya to want to be with forever. And Rose is the exact same for Shane. So it's actually a really clever choice then to have them sort of be companions rather than lovers in a sense. And
Ren Browne (07:36)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Declan (07:55)
Yeah, I suppose it also goes to show that, you know, just because you get along with someone or you imagine someone as being perfect for you, it doesn't mean that they're going to be the right fit. Because, you know, Bertie and Ilya, they're each other's perfect fit, so they are, even though they couldn't be more opposite. And you would think that they wouldn't belong together. And yet their romance is the one which is the most engaging out of the entire thing. yeah, it was an interesting choice to pair them like that. Yeah.
Ren Browne (08:06)
Yeah, yeah.
They are.
They're perfect for each other. Yeah.
No, mean, Shane and Ilya are so perfect for each other because I think they really are, they have what the other one needs and they love each other exactly how they each other are, which I think is like, don't try to change each other. ⁓ But no, think that, I think it's also just like a really good expression of like, there's lots of ways that you have love in your life, right? Like it's not always just romantic love. Like sometimes it is like, and platonic relationships can be just as important.
sometimes as like romantic ones. so I like that even the familial relationships are really explored. And so I do like that the show explores, it's not just about the romantic, like it's also about these friendships and what a huge thing that these friendships can be in your life that like, I mean, they do move things forward in a way that would have been hard without them. So, yeah, I think it's real. I think all the characters are written really smart.
Declan (09:12)
Uh-huh.
Silvan (09:14)
Yeah, you're right. This this.
and as an author, when you're watching this and you're watching these relationships unfold, you know, not just between sort of the women and the men, but also just the men themselves as well. Like, what are you looking for? What's going through your mind as you're watching these females develop and continue on in the show?
Ren Browne (09:28)
Mm-hmm.
I'm really looking forward to season two. I don't want to get like too spoilery, but like I am really interested to see. think Svetlana was changed so substantially from the book. Her role in the show is very different. I think she really, I mean making her a childhood friend, I love that they did that because I think it does make her someone that Ilya is more likely to trust. And then they just also have a much deeper.
Declan (09:49)
Yes.
Ren Browne (10:05)
emotional connection so then she can be the person to be like, hey, like, you know, like you do deserve love. You know, your father is a piece of shit. You know, I I think her role has been changed in a way that I really, really love. And I think I'm really interested to see how Rose and Shane's relationship continue to develop. I really want like a family dinner with like...
with like Shane and Ilya and Rose and Svetlana and Hayden and Jackie. Like I just want the chaos that that would ensue. But I mean, I am really interested to see how Svetlana and Ilya's relationship develops in season two because it is so different than what was in the books. And so I'm really, really interested to see how that continues to develop and then even to how they maybe start to intersect with the other characters. So.
Declan (10:55)
And that is a really good point. Svetlana is so different in the show because in the book she's still like this force of nature. She sort of just blows into Ilya's life very occasionally like a whirlwind, gives some really good advice and then disappears again. She doesn't have that sort of lasting presence that she does within the show. Like you can see in like the cutaways and the montages that she's pretty present in Ilya's life. Whereas you get the idea in the book that Svetlana only really shows up like
Ren Browne (11:05)
Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Declan (11:25)
once a year in Ilya's life and then disappears again. And they have a very, it's almost like she is, for Ilya in the book, ⁓ a neutral party that knows his secrets and he confesses things to. That's more the sort of relationship I get from the book. Whereas in this she is like personally invested in him and really cares deeply and loves him. Whereas in the book it doesn't really, you don't really get that vibe.
Ren Browne (11:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, she really is. Yeah.
Declan (11:51)
So I think they've really developed their character into someone that is actually pretty three dimensional and belongs a lot in Ilya's world. And now Jacob Tierney has this new character he can work with.
Ren Browne (12:01)
Yes, I agree. Yeah.
Yeah, I think in the book, don't they meet like he buys a car from her or something like I think it's something I'm trying I'm trying to remember exactly. It's not it's there. She's not a childhood friend. Like I think that they meet much more casually or something and I I love because she does have this role in his life that she's able to be there with for him in Russia because like he doesn't have anybody else. You know, I mean, it's she's she's such a huge
Declan (12:16)
No.
Ren Browne (12:33)
person in his life, but I think even too, she also is such a good bar to measure his other relationships by because even Svetlana, who he's known since childhood, he's still not nearly as vulnerable with her as he is with Shane. And I think it even just heightens like your awareness of how completely down bad he is for Shane. The fact that, mean, he's, nobody comes close to Shane for him. And it starts really early.
It starts really, really, really early for Ilya. sweet baby.
Silvan (13:06)
Yeah, the thing I get
from Svetlana is there's also this unrequitedness from her part as well, especially when we look at episode five where she has that very sweet tender moment with Ilya and it's almost she knows to back away because she's not the person that he wants comfort from.
Ren Browne (13:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think she's, and I love the way she did approach that where she's like, I know you love me. And she says to him, I'm not going anywhere for whatever you need. I'm here. I know you love me. I love you. And for Ilya, who has had such an awful experience with his family and who has lost someone very close to him, he lost his mother so young, like for her to not even say like, hey, it's okay, but also like, hey, I am still here for you.
Declan (13:53)
Okay.
Ren Browne (13:53)
that's
never gonna change. I mean, I think that does give Ilya some peace to be able to start kind of being like, okay, okay, I need to start thinking about this in a different way because, you know, it is this that she's right. She's, about Lana is actually right. And she also, I think in the show that she definitely knows that it's Shane, but I think it's implied, but I mean, yeah, but I think it's really sweet that she's there for him in that way.
Declan (14:14)
Yeah.
Silvan (14:18)
Yeah.
Yeah. And for me, Svetlana is almost Ilya's secure base. And we think about attachment styles, for example, ⁓ you know, even though they're not in the same place a lot of the times, you know, knowing that she's out there and she's literally at the end of a phone call for me feels like he has roots somewhere because they're not in Russia.
Ren Browne (14:28)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
somewhere. Yeah.
Declan (14:45)
Mm-hmm.
Ren Browne (14:46)
No, and he even says like when he's on in the monologue, he's like, I have that's not true. He's like, I don't have anyone and he said, that's not true. I have Svetlana and even when they're in Russia after the Olympics, she tells them I'll see you in Boston. Like, so you know, he does have this constant in her, which I think is again, I love that change from the book because he does need somebody. ⁓ But I think it's
Yeah, I think they're really sweet together. I think she also, for her, I I think she does love him, but I think she also kind of knows he's not her person either, but they like, but she does love him in a way that, you know, she would do anything for him. And I'm so happy that he has her, because his family sucks. Like his dad and his brother suck. So, you know.
Declan (15:35)
That's a good question though. How does the absence of Ilya's mother affect him? Not just throughout the story, as a person, how does it affect his decisions throughout the book? Because I think he says he's 12 whenever he dies. And what does that absence create, especially in a child that suffers so much trauma and then is, you
Ren Browne (15:43)
God, yeah.
Yeah.
He's 12. Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (16:02)
Can you imagine his father and his brother trying to comfort him at that time in his life? No, they probably didn't. I would imagine. Considering how old the funeral was for the father, I can't imagine what the mothers would have been like with the father as the only sort of parental figure to look after Ilya. What do think that might have cost?
Ren Browne (16:07)
They probably didn't. They didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
God. mean, I think it's, I think one, Ilya himself, when he's talking to Shane at the cottage, like when he's describing his mother, he says, he's like, I don't want you to think she was weak. She was so funny. And she was so beautiful. I mean, he's like describing himself and as he's talking about her. And I think I think Ilya is so much more like his mom, probably than either his his dad or his brother. And so I think that
I think losing her the way he did at 12, especially knowing that his dad and his brother are, I mean, emotionally and verbally abusive would have been incredibly, incredibly hard. And I think there's, and he hasn't dealt with that. There's no way he's been able to deal with that because I'm sure that his brother, his father and his brother, I mean, he even says my father was so hard on her. I'm sure he was really hard on Ilya too. And that I don't want you to think.
she was weak, that's coming from somewhere. So I can only imagine that his, how his dad was. And I think it made him really, I think it made him really, really hesitant to form deep attachments because it was so hard. And then I think after that, he probably learned that being vulnerable only got him ridiculed. I mean, I mean, that one event in his life would have been
I think you see so many echoes of it and how he acts now. And I think a lot of times people are like, well, he's being an asshole. And it's like, he's scared. He's self-protecting so much of the time. I think especially when you look at the tuna melt debacle when they're on the couch and he's putting those feelers out. The side eye that he's doing, he's watching everything that Shane is doing.
Declan (18:01)
self-defense mechanism.
Ren Browne (18:20)
that one event probably made such a huge impact on him and he definitely has not dealt with it at all at this point. He hasn't been able to.
Silvan (18:30)
No, and I can imagine losing a parent, especially by suicide at that age, creates this, it freezes time in a way. And it creates this snapshot of a person, I can imagine for Ilya, of what his mom was like right there and then. And he talks about her with so much affection and so much love. It's almost, yeah, to me, it's almost like she's
Ren Browne (18:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Silvan (18:59)
a way she's idolized because how can she create any, how can you sort of reminisce about flaws from a person when they've passed away? You don't tend to do that naturally. And so for Ilya, there is this idolization of putting her on a pedestal in a way because he was so young as well.
Ren Browne (19:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and she probably was his like one comfort and safety in the house. But I also think you see such such tremendous emotional intelligence from Ilya, by the way, he's talking about her when he says, like, I don't want you to think she was weak. She was she was funny and she was pretty. And like, even with Alexei, like when he's talking to Shane, he says, well, Alexei is scared and that makes him terrible. And I mean, even with Alexei, he's excusing
that behavior to an extent. And it just shows how much emotional intelligence that Ilya has to be able to understand that it's not simple a lot of the time and that even Alexei is reacting from a place of fear. he's so incredibly perceptive and so aware of like what's going on around him. And I think another thing, and I know I've talked about this in some of my videos is, I mean, that sense of hypervigilance often does come from.
like from growing up in a household where you really have to be very vigilant about what's going on around you. I, Ilias had such a hard life and I think that's why Shane is so attractive to him because Shane is so sweet and he's so, he's an open book and he's so non-threatening and Ilias like amazing. This is so good, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Silvan (20:35)
You're right. You're right. Because Shane is almost a product of his mom, in a way. I don't see a lot of his dad
in Shane, maybe from the TV show, maybe it's different in the books. But the dad is, right? Especially when we go to episode six and we have that, you know, that interaction outside of the house and their body language is so mirrored and the way they sort of like, just regulate, it's very mirrored between them. And in a way, I keep thinking how Shane is a product of his mom.
Ren Browne (20:43)
He's very, he's very his mom in the show. Yeah. ⁓
Yeah.
Well, and even in ⁓ the fact that his mom says, love you, I love you so much. And that's what he says to Ilya. He doesn't just say, I love you. He says, I love you so much. So it's like, there's some things that he learned from his parent, from his mom that are probably not great. the perfection, like he's very pressured. Yeah, to feel, like, and a lot of that pressure does come from you. And I don't even think she means to do that. I think it's just, that's her mentality. And she's like, hey,
Declan (21:23)
affectionism faculty.
Ren Browne (21:35)
focus up, like got it. So I think Shane experienced a tremendous amount of pressure to be perfect. So that's like a negative. But on the other side, I think his parents absolutely taught him how to love and how to show affection and like some really, really good stuff too. And he has, he does have such a stable family dynamic that is so, it's a complete 180 from what Ilya has. And so I think there's been a lot of really good things that he's learned from this family too, for sure.
that Ilya will get to have too, which is... I need that. That's what I need for him and Susan.
Declan (22:09)
Season 2, I'm really looking forward to
seeing how Ilya slots into this family dynamic because this is something that he has been lacking for his entire life, almost his entire life, at least since he's been 12 years old. I wonder how having a mother figure in his life again is going to impact him because think of how they were spending their free time on their seasons off.
Ren Browne (22:16)
I am too. I am too.
So long. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Declan (22:35)
Yuna had Shane on schedule, that woman had him doing ad campaigns for every single business out there. Calvin Klein's getting involved. She had him busy, whereas Ilya was spending his time partying and that was all he did. So now that the dynamic has changed so much and her influence is going to be so present in both their lives, how is that going to play out?
Ren Browne (22:40)
Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I'm so excited. Yeah, I think he is too. Yeah.
Silvan (23:06)
I think he's going to thrive. I think he is going to thrive
because I think for Yuna, Shane's mom, I spent a lot of the series not really getting her and then not really liking her and then not liking her at all and then coming all the way back around in that last episode because for me, yes, someone like Shane needed Yuna. Shane was never going to, you
find the endorsements and do all of that sort PR stuff. He was just going to play hockey. That's all he wanted to do, right?
Ren Browne (23:37)
he wants to do. Yeah.
Declan (23:38)
Yeah.
Ren Browne (23:38)
I mean, think Yuna steps, I think, I really do think Yuna was trying to be a good parent. I don't ever get the sense that Yuna was like, I want him to make all this money so that I can reap the financial benefits. was more, this is an area that Shane struggles with. I'm going to take care of this for him. And I think you see that even at the draft when Shane's talking to the new coach and Shane is like kind of...
disassociating and Yuna steps in is like, yeah, you know, I love the metros and da da. So I mean, Yuna really is driving that bus for Shane. And I think you see, but in doing I do think part of that is that that is a shift a little bit of her character in the book, because in the book, I know Shane has his mom and she also has he also has an agent. Yeah, so they kind of melded the two. ⁓
Declan (24:21)
Yeah, she's not a manager in the book. I don't
Ren Browne (24:28)
But I think it does work in terms of just making it so that she is unintentionally putting so much pressure on him. And then to the point where she has created a situation where unintentionally she has made him afraid to tell her this thing that is monumental. And I think for Yuna, that's so incredibly hard because she thinks she does know Shane so well. And then to find out that all this time he's kept something like that from her. I mean, you really would feel...
Declan (24:36)
Yeah.
Ren Browne (24:58)
like you've really failed. And I love that they addressed it that way, that it was not, it was nothing to do with Shane. It was that she felt that she'd really let him down.
Declan (25:05)
Yeah,
the way she says it, it's like, I'm so sorry you didn't feel like you could tell me. Like, yeah, it's that she's sort of acknowledging that feeling that she's had as a parent and that she, like, through, you know, no malicious intent has accidentally created a strange dynamic with her son to the point where he didn't feel comfortable opening up to her. And I suppose it just shows how difficult it is.
Ren Browne (25:12)
Like you could tell me. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Declan (25:36)
to raise kids and to maintain their relationships and to try to be a positive influence in their lives as well. I don't know if either of you guys have kids running around somewhere, but I can only imagine. Yeah, like I can only imagine the pressure of trying to do the right thing by them all the time and how it must feel then to sometimes fail and feel like you're failing them. I mean,
Ren Browne (25:44)
Yeah.
I have two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Silvan (25:51)
Let's ask the parent.
Declan (26:04)
It's incredibly complex and it's very difficult and I can imagine as well her role as the manager also complicating it even further. So yeah, I think it was a very interesting choice for Jacob Tierney to make her Shane's manager on top of just being his mother as well. Because in the book she's not quite as present and she's always a very ⁓ light and positive influence in Shane's life. Whereas then you sort of question about in the book maybe that
Ren Browne (26:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Declan (26:32)
why wouldn't Shane sort of tell his parents because he seems to have this amazing relationship with them. But then free the context of the show, it makes a lot more sense why Shane maybe wouldn't want to do that. And I sort of like, I like that change. think it works better.
Ren Browne (26:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (26:48)
So as a mum then, Ren, how does that resonate with you watching a character like Yuna acknowledge some of the fallacies that she's had and some of ways she's almost not created an environment for Shane to be able to be authentically himself?
Ren Browne (27:05)
Yeah, I mean, I feel for her in that, I mean, because I think the way they built up to it too, where you see them at the table and Yuna gets up twice or she's up walking around twice and both times she touches Shane as she's walking by. And I think it's just this little nonverbal like reassurance like, hey, I know I seem keyed up right now, but this I'm not mad at you. Like, you know, and then I think after the boys tell her.
⁓ that they've been in love, that they're in love, that they're the only other person that they've loved as each other. And ⁓ after that, I think the magnitude of what Shane has been keeping from her hits her. And that's when you see her get up and not touch Shane and go outside. And I really feel like at that point, she feels like she's almost not entitled to, because she feels like, my God, I have not only...
Did my son feel like he had to hide that he was gay, but he also felt like he had to hide the fact that he's in love with this person that he's, mean, this is huge. And so I, I did feel for her, but I also loved that she took responsibility to say like, this was on me. Like I created this environment because I think as a parent, that is, that is the thing. If you're, if your child feels like they can't tell you something of that magnitude, then somewhere along the line you've messed up. Even if
your intentions weren't to do that. I mean, and it does start, you know, I think even my kids, my kids are young, my kids are like six and three. And ⁓ I, I, I even now I try to be very intentional with my language where my daughter was watching something the other day and she was like, am I going to have a boyfriend? I was like, maybe, or a girlfriend or whatever. It's all fine. You know, and it's like, I think you're just trying to build that in.
from really young age because it is, those questions and those conversations start so much younger than you think they're going to. And, you know, I mean, I think you can try your best and you still mess up. I do feel for her, ⁓ but I also admire the fact that she immediately took responsibility and was like, no, this is on me and ⁓ we'll move forward. And I think it's such a sweet moment.
between her and Shane and I appreciate again that she was none of it was not Shane's fault it was completely no I'm sorry and I think that's as a parent yeah I think that's right so
Silvan (29:36)
I really like that you talked about sort her taking responsibility and I can't help but be really empathetic towards Yuna at this point because if we think about Yuna, she's what, 50s, mid-50s? I don't know. I know the actress is in her mid-50s. I don't know how old the character is supposed to be. But if we think about how she's been a product of the way she's grown up and the way generationally what she would have learned, like if we assume that
Ren Browne (29:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes. ⁓
Silvan (30:04)
she was raised in the US or Canada, don't know, being born in the 70s and living through the 80s and the whole AIDS epidemic in the 90s. And there is this fear instilled in you if your child is gay, they're going to die of this disease. There wasn't enough information out there at the time. that fear is almost... And I see this with friends of mine, gay men who are older.
That fear is instilled in them still. It's almost like it's been locked in. And I can't imagine but help but think about a parent of that time thinking, shit, what if he is gay? Like this is going to make his life so much harder.
Ren Browne (30:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, think your instinct as a parent is to protect your kids from everything, right? Like you never want their life to be harder, but at the same time, you also want them to be able to be them, you know? And I think that's why, again, the magnitude of...
she's like, okay, not only did he not tell me he was gay, but he's actually been in love with someone for years at this. And I mean, they don't even know how long. I know the boys say they weren't in love, but I think we all know they're in denial. But I mean, the magnitude of, and she does say when, they talk about hiding it, she's like, no, that's sad. You know, she's like, no, that's, that's sad. And both Ilya and Shane are like, yeah, yeah. It's so, I mean, I think that her
I love the conversation she has with Shane, but then also the conversation as a family after, because I think you can see it impressing on Yuna and David that their son has really been going through something that's very hard. And again, as a parent, you're like, and I think that's why Yuna goes into fix it mode, because she's like, how can I fix this for you? ⁓ And it's not a simple thing for them.
Declan (31:58)
You could see the gears turning in her head. She was hearing all this information. She had the sponsorship lined up in her head. The pride there is, were about to be bought. Scrapped on every logo that they could find. But that's, yeah, but that's her role in change life. Her role is to very much be as like, as guiding force to direct his energies in whatever way is going to benefit him the most.
Ren Browne (32:01)
Yes, immediately. Yeah, yep. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, she's like ticking through the list. Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (32:26)
⁓ Obviously there's pressure in doing that, but yeah, people like that, that you can trust to take over at the drop of a hat and just know that you're in good hands. Like they're hard to come by and it's such a great role. It's such a great mom role as well. She's sort of extended out her sort of motherly role to his sort of career as well and made it work within the context of him as an adult.
Ren Browne (32:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.
It is. ⁓
Yeah.
Declan (32:54)
And I just think there's something really sweet about that as well. I think it's very cute.
Ren Browne (32:56)
Yeah.
I think both David and Yuna are like, this is Shane's person, so he's our person now too. And I think David's dad does a good job too, because I mean, at the end when the boys leave, he's like, watch your phones. So he says phones, which means they have both their phones now. And I think David, you you see David like pass on Ilya the pasta. And I mean, I think they both just adopt him. And I think it's so sweet because God, I mean, he's been needing that so bad. But yeah, I know I would love to have a Yuna fix my.
Declan (33:04)
BOOM
Yeah.
Ren Browne (33:28)
But you know, I'm
Silvan (33:28)
Right?
Ren Browne (33:29)
like, yes. You're to take the wheel. Yeah. I'm like, my God, please. Yeah. But then I also think you see Shane being like, don't take five steps back. And he says, you know, we just want a future. Because I think for Shane, of it means anything without Ilya. You know, I think he's, that's his main thing is he just wants to be, he just wants to be with Ilya. So he doesn't care about the sponsorships.
Declan (33:29)
Don't we all, yeah?
Excuse me.
Ren Browne (33:56)
And I think that's, that'll be the thing for you to kind of have to wrap her head around. It's like, okay, I can't help in this way so I can help in other ways. And I think she will. I think she'll be great with Ilya in season two.
Silvan (34:08)
So you mentioned earlier about how motherly and maternal Yuna is to both Shane and Ilya But what I get as well is this really maternal sort of protective vibe from Rose as well towards Shane, especially sort of
Ren Browne (34:23)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (34:25)
that breakup, there's a very protective element that I'm getting from her in the way that she wants him to be okay.
Ren Browne (34:34)
Yeah, yeah, she does. And I think the thing is you see the difference between somebody like Rose who has a very secure sense of self. And so none of the questions are really the conversation she's having with Shane. None of it is about protecting her own ego or her like not hurting her own feelings. She's purely just able to have that conversation with Shane. I think in a way that Ilya couldn't because Ilya was so busy trying to self-protect that he couldn't just have.
the open conversation and what I really loved about the way Rose handled it is it was very much about Shane. It was very protective and she adjusted her communication style to Shane because she started very general like, ⁓ are there any other out gay hockey players? And she's like, okay, that's not working. And she even says, I'm not going about this the right way. And then she gets more direct, which is what Shane needs. And then
Declan (35:31)
Mm-hmm.
Ren Browne (35:33)
But then even then when Shane does start to kind of get worked up, then she switches to questions where she can, Shane could answer non-verbally. So she, I mean, she's very tuned in to where Shane is in that conversation. And she is purely having this conversation to help Shane, I think, to help him kind of walk through this. well, have you ever been with another man? Okay. Was it different? Okay. Was it better? Yeah. Okay. So I mean,
Declan (35:55)
Yeah.
Ren Browne (36:02)
he needed somebody to kind of stair step him through that. And I think that's exactly what Rose did. And I think in a way that Ilya couldn't because Rose didn't really have any stakes in the game. know, for her it was just like, for her it like, let me help this person that I have genuine affection for versus Ilya's like, okay, the answers to these questions, my entire life's happiness is hanging in the balance. You know, I think it's just a completely different set of stakes.
And think that's why the conversation goes so much better for Rose than it does for Ilya.
Declan (36:35)
Yeah, she expresses a lot of emotional intelligence and empathy towards Shane. Like she is so clued in to his sort of way of being. I think she also sort of picks up that he might be a little neurodivergent as well. And she she sort of says something like out there, I can't like someone at the end of their meeting along the lines of you're actually really, really funny. And like nobody knows about it. You're secretly really funny, which I thought was such a funny backhand of compliment.
Ren Browne (36:41)
she does. Yeah.
secretly very funny. Yeah, yeah,
Declan (37:04)
⁓ But like her general
empathy towards him and the way in which she sort of very carefully chooses her words, she's almost like she knows she's dealing with like a rabbit that's about to bolt and she needs to sort of like very smoothly transition into the conversation in a way which leaves him an out a lot of the time but she's creating an environment where he's very comfortable, where he really doesn't have any
Ren Browne (37:13)
Yes, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Declan (37:32)
sense of judgment or anything to fear from Rose because she's making it very clear that she's not really hurt about any of this. She even said 80 % of the men that I've dated before have ended up having boyfriends or something like that. It was so uncommon like that and it was so funny. ⁓
Ren Browne (37:40)
She's not. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
She's like, that's the funniest thing I've heard from any of my gay boyfriends or something like that. But I think that...
Declan (37:52)
⁓ Which is just perfect. It just
it breaks the tension for Shane so it does it it goes to show him that she's not taking this badly and he has nothing to really fear from her because the thing is Shane genuinely quite likes Rose. He really likes her personality, likes talking to her and you do get that expression in the acting and the way in which the characters are together but in the book as well you also get Shane's internal thoughts of him literally saying
Ren Browne (37:59)
Yes, yeah.
He does. Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (38:21)
I really, really like her. I really like her as a person. yeah, and that does come across here. So it does. And I think he's the perfect person to kind of do this because she's removed enough that he doesn't need to fear like a big repercussion of what's going to happen. And she has the emotional intelligence and the subtlety to be able to let Shane speak his truth in the way that he wants to in a way that feels comfortable to him.
Ren Browne (38:24)
Yes, he does. He does. Yeah.
Yes.
Yep.
Declan (38:51)
Whereas Ilya might go in
Ren Browne (38:52)
Yeah.
Declan (38:53)
a little too hard, might be a little too brash. His parents, he's sort of written off as not being able to talk to you about it. And then anyone else outside of that spear doesn't know what's going on and can't know about his sexuality out of fear of him losing everything. So she is sort of perfectly positioned to take on this role, this really supporting role. And I think she executes it in such a great way that just makes you sort of fall in love with yourself.
Ren Browne (39:11)
Yeah.
Declan (39:19)
So if Shane doesn't want her, know, someone else will definitely want to be out there.
Ren Browne (39:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, she's so good. And I think the other thing is I think it helps you reminds you to just how isolated Shane really is because she's really his only person outside of hockey. And so I think that ⁓
Declan (39:32)
Bye.
Ren Browne (39:39)
I think she really helps normalize things for him. And I think because she says, she's like, yeah, like 80 % of my boyfriends have left me for another guy. And you see Shane almost going to have this moment of being like, ⁓ it's not just me. And it's like, no, baby, it's not just, you know, but he's so ice. I mean, he's in this little hockey bubble. Like he doesn't really have contact with the outside world. And so I think it does kind of normalize things for him.
Declan (39:59)
Yeah
Ren Browne (40:06)
of like, no, of course it's not just you. It's not a problem that needs fixing, because it's not a problem. And it's like, I think that she helps him kind of temperature check of, because he is feeling so anxious and the fact that she's treating it like it's no big deal. He's like, okay, all right, maybe it's fine. And the fact too that she means it when she says, I wanna stay friends and they do stay friends. And so he also gets the...
that reconfirmation after they leave that he's shared this piece of information with somebody and it's not, to your exact point, it's not world ending. She still really, really, really likes him as a person and she does want to be friends with him. And I think it's such a good moment for Shane because, and then next time you see him at the All-Star game, he's like Mr. Confident and I'd love that for him. It's so good. So he needed that conversation for sure, for sure, for sure.
Declan (40:56)
Thank
Yeah, yeah, for
sure.
Silvan (41:03)
And
I wonder if that almost serves as a blueprint for him to realize she didn't leave, nothing bad happened. So that when he does, you know, unite with Ilya at the cottage, you know, hopefully the same will happen. He's not going to leave. Nothing bad will happen.
Ren Browne (41:10)
Yes, yeah.
Declan (41:11)
Thank
Ren Browne (41:19)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (41:20)
Okay.
Ren Browne (41:20)
Yeah. I mean, Shane really does move the conversations a lot. I mean, he really does initiate a lot of the emotional intimacy. think especially if you look at the All-Star Game hotel room, I mean, he really comes in hot and is like, I'm going to sit down. You're going to sit your fine ass down. We're going to have a conversation. this, yeah, we're going to we're going to do this because I think it's Shane's like, OK.
Declan (41:39)
no, this is serious. ⁓
Ren Browne (41:45)
Sometimes just having the conversation actually does make you feel better. So let's do this because I think he's, he's, Ilya is so dependent on Shane actually allowing him to push him away or on Shane pulling back. And the second Shane stops letting him, Ilya is done. It's because he can't resist either. So I, yeah, but it did take Shane coming in and being like, you know what? We're going to have a talk.
Declan (42:05)
you
Thank God for Rhodes.
Silvan (42:15)
Exactly.
Ren Browne (42:16)
I know, yes, I
know, love Rose, yeah.
Silvan (42:19)
Thank God for Rose because she does give them that push in the same way I think about Elena. And there's a running joke in the whole podcast that I say Elena. but in the same way, you know, Elena pushes Kip as well, you know.
Ren Browne (42:28)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I love how she does it too though in a way that ⁓ she's not like, and she says, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just telling you, you know, and she is protecting her friend, but she's protecting Scott too. And she says, cause she says, you also deserve sunshine. And I think Scott who puts, who has literally put everyone else ahead of his own happiness and
Declan (42:35)
Yeah.
Ren Browne (43:02)
you know, he needed to hear that. I think again, you see the women in the show kind of telling their male counterparts like what they need to hear to start allowing themselves to be happy. Like, you know, so I know Elena's a, she's a house on fire. like her. Yeah, I love her.
Declan (43:21)
She's a realist. So she is.
Silvan (43:21)
She's a badass.
Declan (43:24)
I think that's why she works though, is she is that friend that you go to for the proper advice, not the ones that are going to tell you how amazing you are all the time and how great you are and know, flap flap queen. Like she is going to really give it to you exactly how it is. Yeah, exactly. And she can see that she isn't quite getting through to Kip.
Ren Browne (43:35)
Yeah.
She's gonna give it to you straight. Yeah, yep. Yeah.
Declan (43:49)
And so she's like, well, I'm taking matters into my own hands here. And she goes directly to Scott because Kip is too in love with Scott to act on, you know, these negative emotions that he's feeling. And she then takes that step to be like, I'm going to speak for my friend a little bit here because he is too in love with you to tell you this, but I'm going to be real with you. This is not working and he is miserable as a result of what's going on here.
Ren Browne (43:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Declan (44:19)
I you both love each other, ultimately what you're doing is just screwing everything up for both. And that conversation could have turned her into a very disliked character, but the way in which she has empathy for Scott as well, and you can tell by the conversation that she fully understands what this is costing him as well.
Ren Browne (44:36)
A villain. Yeah. Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
Declan (44:49)
And because she is considering both sides, can't really say that what she's doing is wrong in any way.
So in that sense, you can't really be mad at her. In fact, you kind of respect her for having the balls essentially to do what the boys can't do.
Ren Browne (45:04)
Yeah, well, I mean, I think you realize Scott doesn't have anybody in his life. I mean, no one knows and he doesn't have anybody, have family. I mean, his whole life is his team and like putting his team ahead of his own needs. And so, I mean, he doesn't really have anybody to be.
Whereas, know, Kip has a really good support network. He has his dad, he has Elena, he has their other friends. And I think that Scott doesn't really have anybody. And so I think Scott did need to hear someone say, hey, you also deserve sunshine. You also deserve to be in the light. And ⁓ I think you guys, think I was listening to one of you guys's clips, we were talking about how like you can't be happy when you're hiding.
And I think that ⁓ Elena knows that. And so she's trying to help not just Kip, but Scott. And I think that's why you do kind of feel like, OK, yeah, that probably needed to be said. And she does come from a place of she's trying to help both of them, I think, just be happy. Scott takes it to heart because he realizes that, yeah, he does need to be in the sunshine.
Silvan (46:17)
Yeah. And if you think about even the actress who plays Elena Nadine Barber, I probably butchered her name, I'm sorry. ⁓ But with the little screen time that she does have, she steals the scenes that she's in.
Ren Browne (46:30)
She's awesome.
I love her. She's so good. Yeah, I know. No, she's got so much presence and so much just like, I mean, she's a badass, but you know, to be like, hey, you know, I love what she's like, Christopher, if I walk away, are you going to start talking? I mean, she is a very like, you know.
Silvan (46:33)
Like, you can't take your eyes off her.
Ren Browne (46:54)
⁓ She's very outspoken, but you can tell it definitely comes from a place of love and that she does know him so well. And ⁓ yeah, I love her. And then is it Maria in the show? The girl. Girl, yes, I love her too. She's so funny. I know. She was all of us watching that scene. Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (47:08)
Girls.
Declan (47:09)
It's so good.
Silvan (47:15)
And this is right, right. And I love how
funny the show is because yes, it's sort of built as a drama and stuff, but the show is hugely funny, especially when we have moments like that, that light and the tension from Maria.
Ren Browne (47:21)
Yes.
Yes, yeah. You need it. You need
it to break the tension. I mean, you need like those moments of levity and those moments, think that, I mean, I really do think she spoke for all of us and she was like, girl, like, I mean, cause Scott, Scott Hunter coming in with that under armor that is like glued to his skin. Yeah, I'm like, good Lord.
Declan (47:33)
Good for you.
interesting fruit.
Silvan (47:49)
And speaking of pushing Kip as Elena most usually does, the person that we don't hear about is Kip's mother. And so I don't know how that's represented outside of the TV show.
Ren Browne (47:59)
Yeah.
I don't, and I have not read, I'm gonna be honest, I have not read Kip and Scott's book. I'm saving them for after I hit my deadline, I'm gonna read the rest of them. But I've I've read, I've read Heated River and I've read The Lawn Games. I don't know if, is Kip's mom mentioned in the book? Declan, have you read it?
Declan (48:07)
Thanks.
⁓
I don't actually remember if she is. In fact, I don't really think Kip's parents are overly present in the book. think he tends to avoid them because of the pressure of having to submit his college application. By the way, Kip's character in the book is like his problems turned up to 10 and they go out free out the entire book and it makes him...
Ren Browne (48:33)
are at all.
Hmm.
Declan (48:52)
Difficult to watch or difficult to read at times, but the show's done a little differently. But I think they put more emphasis on his relationship with his father anyway, ⁓ which is actually very loving and very kind and really, really nice. I think you almost don't so much feel the loss of the sort of mother's presence because of the love that his father sort of.
Ren Browne (48:54)
No.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Declan (49:19)
has for him and he's very open with his affection and like is there like a time whenever he says like love you, love you, say it back, wane through the say it back, love you like that's yeah say it back it's a really sweet moment and I think it's a very positive depiction of masculinity as well ⁓ I really do like the sort of relationship that Kip has with his father ⁓ but I would be very curious about his mother about
Ren Browne (49:21)
Yeah.
Say it back. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Declan (49:49)
Maybe what happened there, maybe they're widowed, he knows, but I'm not 100 % sure. Unless someone watching or listening has any idea, tell us please, but I can't remember at all about Kip's mom.
Ren Browne (49:52)
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not sure. guess I'm going to let myself read it after I've hit my deadline. But ⁓ his dad is so sweet. And I just love his dad. And I love that even when Kip is kind of running around stressed, his dad is the one that's like, you're going to do great, buddy. I mean, he's so sweet and so kind. And I agree. I think that it is such a lovely representation of masculinity. And I think that's actually something.
throughout the show that like you get just some really different representations of masculinity than you often get in mainstream media and I think that is one of the things that's made the show so attractive. ⁓ But Kip's dad is is so sweet and I think that kind of what we talked about with Yuna, Shane picking up so many of Yuna's ⁓ characteristics and also like her way of showing love, I think that seeing how open
Kip's dad is with showing love and being really very loud in a good way with his love. And then so it would be even harder for Kip to not to have to hide because he's not been raised to hide. And so I think it is really, you get two very different representations of parenting there, but I mean, Kip's dad is so sweet and he's so openly affectionate.
So I think that is part of the reason why Kip struggles so much. He's not used to it. He's not used to that.
Declan (51:32)
Yeah.
Ren Browne (51:33)
He's so sweet.
Silvan (51:37)
Yeah. And now one of the things that, and maybe it's because I've grown up watching very female centric shows and this is very much focused on the boys and on the men, should say rather. And so the one thing that I really missed were the female friendships because these female characters don't interact with each other. They only interact with their male sort of scene partners or counterparts. And so what was your take on the fact that
Ren Browne (51:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (52:05)
We don't get any female friendships depicted in this show.
Ren Browne (52:10)
I mean, I think for this narrative, I think it makes sense because I think there's so little time. I mean, this show is moving. I mean, the pacing is quick. And I think that, ⁓ I mean, it's moving. I mean, we're jumping years. I mean, they only had six episodes. And I think that's why even with Scott and Kip's story, we're missing a pretty big chunk of, you know, we don't really get to find out how they go from Scott outside Kip's birthday party to now.
Declan (52:21)
yeah.
Ren Browne (52:40)
Kip and his dad and Elena are all at Scott's game. So, you I think we kind of missed that chapter. So I think to a certain element, there's just not a lot of time to get into some of these other relationships. But I think it's also a fact of all of these characters are really isolated in their own way and they just don't have a lot of people around them to have like often these kind of
Declan (52:46)
you
Ren Browne (53:06)
friend group dynamics where you have like a lot of, mean, Kim, think is really the only one that has like a pretty robust friend group. But I mean, Ilya and Shane are both very, very isolated in the hockey world and Ilya has Svetlana and that's it. And Shane has Rose and that's it. And they really don't have anyone else outside of their little, their very tiny bubble. That being said, I would love in season two to see ⁓ Rose and Svetlana. ⁓
Declan (53:14)
Yeah.
Ren Browne (53:35)
just lighten some stuff up. I mean, think that, I think it is, I think there's just not a lot of, I honestly, I just don't think there's not a lot of room for a lot of those relationships to develop. I think even within Ilya and Shane, like they just don't have big support networks at all. mean, Shane has a much better one than Ilya does, but I mean, they don't have a lot of people around them at all. They're so isolated. Scott too, extremely isolated.
Declan (53:36)
you
Silvan (54:02)
Yeah,
because you're absolutely right. And in a way, these women almost serve as this narrative function in a very male dominated world.
Ren Browne (54:13)
Yeah,
Declan (54:13)
I going say, I think that's very true to life though. I think men have less close sort of relationships in terms of like emotional quality and things like that. Especially outside of the queer community as well. Like I find that women in garret seem to have much more meaningful, larger friend groups than I would find with men for the most part.
I think that sort of reflects a sort of hockey world as well. Like it's still very, very masculine and not always in the best sort of ways. And so you have this challenge of people having very limited options for emotional support. And I think it's not a mistake that the guys are missing out on so many of these opportunities to be able to communicate with their friends and having such small support groups.
Ren Browne (55:03)
Yeah.
Declan (55:11)
And then all of a sudden, the biggest supporters that come into the story are all the women, because they know what the business is, they know exactly how to lift someone up, how to support them and how to help them through a bad time. Whereas the guys are struggling for those relationships and that does actually reflect real life, I think.
Ren Browne (55:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Silvan (55:34)
Yeah, because in a way it sort of
mirrors real life gender norms and expectations because you see these women absorb a lot of the anxiety and the vulnerability and the anger from these male characters. And how true is that in real life?
Ren Browne (55:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think there is a gender pressure, a societal pressure often for women to be more emotionally mature, right? I think it's for women a lot of times to have that emotional intelligence because I think, ⁓ you know, you still see those labels where, you know, a guy can be speaking very... ⁓
Declan (56:02)
Mm-hmm.
Ren Browne (56:15)
passionately about something and he's like, he's just passionate versus a woman. She's like, wow, she's like, she's crazy. You know, I mean, I think that you still see a lot of these gender norms. ⁓ And I think too, I so appreciate how they wrote these female characters with such care because I think oftentimes too, you find that the female characters are often judged.
harsher sometimes in male characters because I think a lot of things kind of get written off as like, know, like, well, boys will be boys and it's, you know, so I think that is a reflection of society. I think, again, you see Ilya.
I mean, you think of Ilya seeing those pictures of Shane and Rose and he is like going through it. I mean, he's having a terrible time and there is nobody around him that he's talking to about any of those things. I mean, his teammates, certainly not. You even see his teammates kind of ribbing him about that they think he's been sleeping around and he's, you know, just been staring at paparazzi photos of Shane. I mean, it's, there is, think definitely that element of they are in such a
Declan (57:08)
Yeah.
you
Ren Browne (57:29)
bubble of these kind of macho things around them. And then the women kind of come in and they are really their touch points with the outside world too, because neither of them are experienced in the outside world outside of, not really outside of those relationships. They're so insulated in hockey and in that one kind of way of being and in the hyper competitiveness and you know, all that stuff.
Declan (57:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, Sylvan, I don't know what your experience was. Sorry. I don't know what your experience was, Sylvan. Like, did you find it more comfortable as a gay man opening up to the garros than you did the boys? Like, would you find an easier time befriending the garros over the boys?
Ren Browne (57:58)
I mean, the fact that they... Go ahead.
Silvan (58:17)
I really like that you asked that question because 100 % yes. I had a bigger group of female friends than I did male friends. And I went to an all-boys school. I mean, you know, I was surrounded by guys all the time, but it was the female friendships where I found the solace. was my female friends that I came out to first because that was my safe space.
Ren Browne (58:33)
Hmm.
Declan (58:41)
Yeah,
yeah, I think we sort of know that the girls will offer you a lot more empathy and understanding than the boys will. And so it feels like a safer space to be in because you know that you'll find that emotional support, which is in itself pretty loaded. What does that say about how we view, you know, the role of women in?
our sort of lives and our relationships? Like, are they just there to carry the emotional weight? Or is it something that we need to properly address as men? ⁓ Because I know a lot of men in my life who are very emotionally intelligent, very switched on, very easy to talk to. And a lot of them know you're my closest friends, but there's a lot of them who are the complete opposite, who...
are completely lacking in self-awareness and are so emotionally repressed in the way that they behave that it's no surprise you feel the need to turn to somebody that you think would offer you more understanding. So yeah, there's a lot in that and I don't think it's a coincidence that Ilya and Shane find solace and empathy in the women in their lives so much so than the men that they're surrounded with.
Ren Browne (59:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Silvan (1:00:05)
And so Ren, then, as an author, when you're writing female characters in your books, how are you constructing them in that way? Is there a difference in how you're constructing them versus the male characters?
Ren Browne (1:00:06)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think that I do have the, I think that as I go into write characters, I often understand that the female characters are gonna get judged differently than the male characters. And I think you often see that the, I think how to phrase this.
the ceiling for bad behavior in a male character is so much astronomically higher than a female character, which can be like, well, she's a little whiny. And it's like, okay, well, he's like killing people. like, that, is that on par? Or I mean, so I think there definitely is, you know, I've, I feel like I've seen that quite often where like the male characters often get a lot more leeway, you know, to act badly than the female characters do.
Declan (1:00:51)
Yeah.
Ren Browne (1:01:14)
But I think it's, so I think that is one of the things that you kind of go in and write and think about really thinking about all of these female characters and trying to write them in a way that they do feel very strong and authentic and you know that they're not going to get beat up for being too something, something, something, but you also want them to be themselves. And I think that
Connor, I think Connor's story gave an interview where I think he was asked, like, why do so many women love heated rivalry? And I think one of the things he said was, is that he thinks that women understand very well what it feels like to be put in a box and be told like, you can be this one thing and you have to be this one thing. And so I think women do understand that a lot. And I think women do tend to have a lot of empathy for that feeling. And then two, I think that this,
representation of masculinity that doesn't feel as scary as often what women are exposed to is also really nice. I mean, I think I went to, do you guys know who Orville Peck is? Does that name ring a Okay, I absolutely love him. I adore him. He's a country singer. I love him so much. he,
is he's gay and the, um, he had a concert in Chicago in, um, you know, what is largely considered to be kind of like a gay community within Chicago land area. And I went to that concert and I have never felt so safe at a concert or out in public than I did at that concert. I was amazing. It was amazing. I was like, this is so great. Like there were tons of men there and they were all just amazing to like, and I did not.
have to worry about being there. And I think that is something that is really attractive to women watching this show is like seeing these like non-toxic, much safer representations of masculinity than what we get exposed to in our daily life. So I think that's a huge part of the appeal for sure.
Silvan (1:03:25)
Yeah, I love that you say that because as I can only speak from the perspective as a gay man, I don't know about other sort of groups, but as a gay man, there is an idolization of women that happens in pop culture. And so you see like a lot of these groups sort of really build up women and there is this level of respect and not to say that they don't tear them down, unfortunately, on social media, but then everyone does. But there is this sort of
propping up of these women or these female characters that gay men will identify with so very much. And there's a protectiveness that comes with that as well.
Ren Browne (1:04:02)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:04:05)
Mm-hmm.
Ren Browne (1:04:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Silvan (1:04:08)
I don't know what your perspective
on that is Declan.
Declan (1:04:12)
Yeah, I would say that's quite true. You know, what? There's like different sayings, like Queen of the Gays, like you adopt her as your mother, Lady Gaga is like we're all her monsters and so many different like pop culture icons. You're all women are all sort of propped up and idolized by gay men.
Ren Browne (1:04:30)
Yeah.
Declan (1:04:41)
some of them very rightly so. But it's like that, it's almost like a term of endearment of like respect and admiration and so much of I think gay cultures wrapped up in the culture of women as well. And so yeah, I just find it such an interesting little thing to be done. I think it's because of the comfort and the relatability that
Ren Browne (1:04:44)
You
Declan (1:05:11)
gay men find with women with the more feminine at times. And yeah, it just feels like a safe space. It feels like a space to have fun and to yeah, just be who you're meant to be.
Ren Browne (1:05:26)
Yeah, I think women are taught, we're given so much more space, I think to be very openly affectionate. I think that's one of the things that people love so much about Conor and Hudson is they're so huggy and they're so sweet together and they're so openly physically affectionate with each other. And again, I think going back to that, this portrayal of masculinity that doesn't feel like a lot of what we see often in the mainstream, but I think
know, women are, we are very huggy a lot of those times with our personal relationships and our friends and we're very affectionate and you know, we're given so much more space, I think often to do that than men are. And that's one of the things that.
you know, the toxic masculinity thing goes both ways. It hurts both sides where, you know, you have men that feel like they don't feel like they can express themselves. They can't be affectionate with their friends or their, you know, the people that they love. And then, you know, women are getting a different experience with that. So, I mean, I think that's the thing is, I mean, it really harms everybody. And I think that's why shows like this are so important to show, you know.
There's not just one version of masculinity. There's also not just one version of femininity. You know, I think it's, ⁓ I think this more nuanced storytelling is so important for that reason.
Declan (1:06:47)
Yeah. Did you also all see the NHL player came out?
Ren Browne (1:06:55)
Yes, yeah, I saw that. Yeah, he said that he watched He Did Rivalry and thought, yeah, yeah.
Declan (1:07:01)
Yeah, he
apparently had a bit of a panic, but then when he calmed down, it gave him confidence to come out and do what was shown on screen, which I think is just such a great indication that the show was doing a lot of good.
Ren Browne (1:07:18)
Yeah, well, and why representation matters and why like it's so important to see, you know, to see yourself and see people that are going through the same things you are and see that it's okay. You know, I mean, think just having that connection point is why it's so important to have all of these different types of stories ⁓ being told because, know, I mean, yeah, we're seeing in real time and the show's been out, what?
Declan (1:07:21)
Exactly.
Ren Browne (1:07:44)
six weeks, like a month that I mean, and you're seeing just such a huge impact already. ⁓ You know, and I think that's amazing that it's able to show people that I hope too that people that are in hiding too are seeing just how much people are like rallying around the show. Like I hope it does create a sense of safety hopefully for some people and it's, you know.
Declan (1:07:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Ren Browne (1:08:11)
It's a really nice thing to come up with this. It's why it makes it so much bigger than just a TV show.
Declan (1:08:15)
Yeah, 100%.
Silvan (1:08:18)
Yeah, that's so beautifully said as well. Thank you. You can tell you're an author. Gosh, you're so good with words.
Declan (1:08:22)
You should write.
Ren Browne (1:08:25)
Thank you, thank you.
Silvan (1:08:27)
Buy her book, everyone. But in a way, I feel like this whole conversation is something
that I've been looking forward to having. And I know we've of been looking forward to this, having this conversation with you specifically, Ren And I think it so very much encapsulates how the women in the show really prop up the men. They give them the ability to have that safe space to be able to either come out or receive that reinforcement.
Ren Browne (1:08:52)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:08:57)
really feel supported in the way that women in my life have done my entire life.
Ren Browne (1:09:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And I hope people too like watch it and think like, okay, this is a good example of how to be a safe space for someone so that when people do come that you can hopefully support them in the way that they need. it's such a good.
It's such a good model for so many different types of relationships for friendships, but then also parental relationships. hope that a lot of, I mean, I know again, like as a parent, me watching that scene with Yuna and I was like, okay, I do not, how do I make sure that I do not have this conversation with my son or daughter, you know, years and years from now. And I think, I hope a lot of other people are watching it too and thinking like, okay, like how do I, how do I make it better than what, you know, than what I'm seeing?
Silvan (1:09:55)
feel like we can have three hours worth of this conversation and maybe we should maybe we should transfer it over to your podcast because I know you can talk.
Ren Browne (1:09:58)
We definitely could. ⁓ my
Declan (1:10:00)
you
Ren Browne (1:10:06)
God, I know. You know, we can do that. can, so we can go back and forth. We can have, you know, I'd love to have you guys on too. And ⁓ I mean, I think you could talk about this show for, you could talk about this show for years and still find stuff. And that's what's so, it was shot over the course of like a month. That's unreal to me. That's, mean, how much they layered in, I mean.
Declan (1:10:21)
Yeah, that's crazy.
Ren Browne (1:10:27)
Jacob Tierney had to be cooking on this for a while. I mean, that is unbelievable. So, I know.
Silvan (1:10:33)
And this is why we need
to be patient for season two. cannot rush him. Let them leave the man. Let him do right.
Ren Browne (1:10:36)
Yes, let that man cook. Let that
man cook. Yes. I'm like, I'll wait. I will wait. You know, I mean, I will happily wait. I would much rather. And that is such a thing right now is I think there's so much pressure to like kick things out really fast. And then but then it comes out and it's not what people want. And then they get disappointed. It's like, you gotta let the creative process takes a while. You gotta
And this is what happens when you let people have the space to pursue passion projects and to think things through, you get art. I mean, it's a beautifully done show. It's beautifully done.
Declan (1:11:12)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:11:12)
Yeah.
And actually that's something that I've learned from you in a way, from watching how you present yourself on your TikTok and your Instagram and even the way you've developed your podcast. You haven't rushed it. We were having a conversation off camera and you spend your whole first episode of your podcast talking about the first 16 minutes of episode one. And I thought how amazing is that, that you've taken the space
Ren Browne (1:11:35)
Yes. Yeah.
Declan (1:11:37)
That's impressive. ⁓
Silvan (1:11:41)
You've taken it at
Ren Browne (1:11:41)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:11:42)
your own time, but you're developing it on your schedule and a bit of self-disclosure. I was so worried about publishing this podcast. like, and definitely had conversations like who's going to listen, like how people are to find us, like how quickly do we need to share out these episodes? And something I've learned from you is to just take a step back, slow it down and it will come. So thank you.
Ren Browne (1:11:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's, I think it's one of those things where I think there's a quote from, I think it's a Jane Austen, I can't remember who it's by, but I think the quote is basically that a well-written book will always feel too short. And it's like, I mean, so I think the thing is, is like, if it's really good content, people are always gonna want more of it and, you know, but it's not gonna be as good.
if you rush it. that's a good thing for me. I have to tell myself that all the time. I always am like, I wish I could do things faster. I wish I had more time. And sometimes it's better just to, I'm learning to, I'm learning to like just kind of slow it down. And there's so many things I think with this show that are such important conversations. I think even around like mental health and ⁓ you know, just so many things woven into the show that I just want to give them all there.
due diligence, but there's even stuff that I'm not talking about because I'm not a subject matter expert on it. Like I'm talking for four and half hours about this episode one and I'm still leaving stuff out which is insane. That's insane. That's crazy.
Silvan (1:13:09)
Right now, where can
Now, Ren, where can people find you on social media? Where can they find your podcast and your books?
Ren Browne (1:13:20)
Yeah, so I'm on,
I know, my other life. ⁓ So I am on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me at Ren Browne writes that's Browne with an E, or you can follow me on the Shelf Aware, or actually just Shelf Aware podcast on TikTok and Instagram. I'm not on threads because threads makes me anxious, but I am on Instagram and TikTok. And I do talk about my books on there too, so.
You can find my books wherever you shop for books. You can get them through your local indie, can get them on Amazon, can them through Barnes & Noble, wherever you shop.
Silvan (1:13:55)
you so much for being on here with us and for answering the DM when I asked you to come on to the podcast. Like I'm so thankful that you just said yes.
Ren Browne (1:14:01)
Yeah, thank you for having me.
No, thank you for having me. I think it's, you know, I love talking about this show and I appreciate both the perspective that both of you guys bring and you know, I've loved listening to your clips. So was nice to chat and we'll have to trade. You guys will have to come hang out with me and Lizzie now. ⁓ And you know, we'll get four people of chaos on one call plus Lizzie's cats. So.
Declan (1:14:29)
my cat as
well.
Ren Browne (1:14:32)
good,
good, good. Yes, I know. I won't bring my dog. That's too much, but yeah, we'll get the cats on. Yeah, exactly. my god, I can bring that too. Yeah, we can just all bring. There's so many people on the call. Yeah, but yeah, thank you again. I had fun.
Declan (1:14:36)
We'll make a playdate out of it.
Silvan (1:14:40)
I'll just bring my other personalities. It'll even out.
Thanks,
Ren