Two Past Midnight: Secret Window, Secret Garden Part 2 - Stephen King - Horror Book - Psychological Thriller Book

We are back for Season 5 of the Side Quest Book Club Podcast. Starting with the king of horror, Stephen King. Today, Jess joins us for the final episode covering  "Secret Window, Secret Garden" from Stephen King's novella collection, Four Past Midnight. We compare the book and film, track Mort Rainey’s slide into madness, and weigh how isolation and the dark edge of creativity drive it. Then we zoom out: predictable plots, where inspiration ends and plagiarism begins, and how adaptations reshape the story. 

American Heritage Magazine: HP Lovecraft and Stephen King https://www.americanheritage.com/man-who-can-scare-stephen-king

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(00:00) Instro & Exploring the Differences: Book vs. Movie Adaptation
(05:28) Themes of Madness and Guilt in Storytelling
(11:11) The Dark Side of Creativity and Its Impact
(18:26) The Connection Between Creativity and Mental Health
(24:07) Embracing Madness: The Freedom of Being Crazy
(25:16) The Importance of Routine and Support
(26:55) Fame and Isolation: The Writer's Dilemma
(27:08) Plagiarism and the Writer's Struggle
(32:15) Isolation and Internal Struggles
(35:09) The Impact of Parenthood on Mental Health
(38:59) Accusations of Plagiarism: A Writer's Burden
(45:39) The Fine Line Between Inspiration and Plagiarism
(49:04) Influence of Literature on Writing Style
(52:10) The Quest for Authentic Voice in Writing
(56:00) Exploring Themes of Madness and Identity
(01:00:22) The Book Ending: Reality vs. Supernatural
(01:04:59) Comparing Book and Movie Endings

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

Slava (00:04.43)
coming to you from the endless library where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves. This is the SideQuest Podcast.

I read this several times. That was why at first I was like, I thought I wasn't gonna like the story. That and I was influenced, I had seen the movie first. So I've been previously influenced. The plagiarism aspect is not even a huge part of the movie. So it's totally different story. You take away the plagiarism. It's not the same story. It was more about getting back at his wife. ending is different too. The ending is different. You don't really see here too much of Amy in the story.

There's a movie?

Jess (00:47.874)
to be super sympathetic towards her. Not too much, because it's mostly about his descent into madness. She's more of a victim. We're in the movie, I feel like. She kind of deserves it for what she did. Well, not like she did. No, but you see so many flashbacks. He's like plagued with the cheating.

to do something different.

Jonathan (01:06.74)
does it give us any flashbacks of what he did before that?

In the movie, no, not really. You see like a little bit of happy moments of them together and they do have like a one minute discussion, not even a whole minute about the fact that one time he took inspiration from someplace. And he goes, that was only one time. This is not like it. So that's the only time they ever discussed it, which in the book, a big deal is that he never told her, which I guess we can kind of bring up, know, Amy kind of has a little bit of that psychic, a little bit of the powers.

Hmm.

Well, she says she calls them because she has a feeling that something's going on. That's true, She gets those feelings.

That's another King trope.

Jess (01:47.17)
Yeah, someone has to have magical powers. A little bit psychic.

Yeah, it's usually a woman or a minority. Sometimes. Yeah. And I don't know why that specifically, but it's just a King thing. I'm here for it, but it goes back to the trope conversation we had. King has certain things that he always inserts into a story. Yeah. Good, or indifferent. Well, folks, if you haven't guessed it, is on. Hello.

I heard it's usually a black eye.

Jonathan (02:00.535)
Morpheus.

Jonathan (02:09.72)
Beautiful.

They didn't know.

here.

I thought it was Jonathan. Yeah.

Well, if you listen to some of the intros that Slava said we were going to use where I was fooling around, you might actually think that it's Jess and I are one person.

Jess (02:29.218)
like the singing that I heard on the last one. hope that makes it in. Yeah, that was a good song.

Which part? which, yeah. yeah. That's right. I thought it was the, Rox is on a vacation far away.

on a Saturday shooter walks in

Jess (02:49.566)
that's better. That's really good. It had a cheer. I thought it had more of a cheers vibe.

Yeah, yeah. The piano man, John Shooter, one did.

I was at a bar in New York once and there was a guy there that could have been the poster child for this song. He was an old man, probably in his 80s or 90s, dressed extraordinarily. I don't know how else to, it was just so much panache, right? Everything was ironed right. He had a nice tie. He had this flashy suit and it was this light blue color and he was sitting there and he was about two feet away from me and he was drinking gin and tonics.

And I was in. Well, obviously, yeah, because I day drink all the time. No, it was at dinner.

Were you there in the,

Slava (03:38.274)
was a Saturday night and it was just this is... This is a moment, yes.

Tuesday night.

This is intervention.

Yeah, it's not actually secret garden. It's not secret garden, secret window. Secret intervention.

secret intervention.

Slava (03:52.964)
You guys, don't know me. You don't know what it's like.

didn't see him? He was there!

yeah, sorry. We cut that out.

Future Slava, put all of Jess's inflammatory comments in and all the private public.

Address the address. I don't know your address. I just get here

Slava (04:06.749)
Doxer for no reason.

Well, I don't know your address, but I know where you live because I picked you up and dropped you off.

Same thing, like I don't know. I don't even know the, I don't even know the road we're on.

I live here. don't know what

What town are we in? don't even- don't either. I can't say it either.

Jonathan (04:21.838)
don't even know how to spell his last name, so.

Jonathan (04:27.128)
Neither can I, Jess. Neither can I. And then he realized that I could

as the man who's named after a cartoon character.

yeah. So we're, look, we wanted people to know that they knew us.

Looney Tunes for the win. If you know, know.

I don't. I don't get it. I'm in the dark. You'll explain it to me later.

Jonathan (04:50.166)
That sounds great. So Secret Garden, Secret Window, last time we discussed plot and characters and King's writing. And we wanted to save talking about themes today with you, Jess, because we always feel like you have some great takes for the overarching theme of books. And then just before the show, you were telling us also that you watched the movie. I was going to say video, the movie.

So we to blogbuster, rent a videotape.

the VHS. I this movie. Yeah, I forgot. Oh no.

Do you rewind?

Did you rewind? extra fee there.

Jess (05:24.28)
I remember those days vaguely.

Amen. So Jess, what themes did you, well first off, have you read this before? Did you enjoy it?

I've read it at this point, I think four times. The first time I read it, I don't really remember. I think it was like shortly after I had seen the movie and the movie did make me not like the story as much. And I feel like I kind of unfairly judged it for it being another Stephen King, you know, writer down on his luck trope, which I think I had more of an issue with before, where now I can like look past it. Cause I definitely appreciate his writing more now.

I like it more than the Lingoliers. Really? Yeah, I like the, I love the kind of like the spiral that you kind of go along with his mindset with him. You go crazy with him. Kind of like a tug of war. Cause like at one point I feel like, cause I've read it more than once and I know you said there was no foreshadowing in it or you didn't see.

Hmm.

Jonathan (06:20.59)
I didn't see it. Doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Is there, know, hindsight's 20-20 when you go back and read it, there's plenty, I think there's plenty of foreshadowing, not like outright, but like his Descendants of Madness, at one point, I think we know before he knows, at least, we figure it out before he figures out that he's shooter, and then it's like a tug of war with his mind. So I liked that part of the writing a lot. I like very internal stories sometimes. It's not, because like I said, he's the main character. We don't really...

Unfortunately don't have a lot of empathy or feelings towards the other characters. Amy is the closest to like another full main character, but there's not a lot of characters in here. It's mostly more rainy and shooter, but you know, two guys, one guy, fight club style, like you guys mentioned, which I checked. He did not steal that. That's the thing that's not plagiarism. When two guys or two women, whoever have the same idea.

There we go. Yes.

Jess (07:15.498)
So similar, it's such a similar idea, but this execution of storytelling makes it different, completely different story. Because there's so many parallels between Fight Club and this. The more he sleeps, the more he's, know, John Shooter. How long is he even sleeping that long? He has a fight with himself. Other people know that, well, not really for long, because it's a shorter period of time. Other people, you know, know him as him. He doesn't know that they're not seeing him with another guy.

except for the weird ending part where the ghost aspect is brought up, is why the story's so different, it's more supernatural. I mean, it's supernatural. Fight Club was not supernatural at all. Yeah, but like, and I love like, I guess you guys have to say multiple personality, a split psyche from, well, I think what we assume is that the trauma is from just being cheated on instead of that being like, know, maybe

Just anarchy.

Jess (08:12.494)
whatever they call it on those crime shows, like not a trigger, but it's like a trigger. The thing that causes the person to finally lose it. Yeah, yeah, motive. I'm actually thinking, I think, I'm thinking of another word that I heard on like criminal minds that I can't.

the inciting incident towards the spiral?

Yes, there's always like a some trigger that brings it out of this type of personality type.

towards madness you could say. Or trigger for madness or descending. Yeah. descent, the descent into madness.

We have, I think, that in us. I feel, know, it's you repressed people that don't act crazy, like, that's the thing, you repressed everything. That's why you went crazy. But I think, well, not you, as far as going back to that more. But no, you, you may be, probably. It's probably any day now. Same thing with Slava. It's not going to be me. Like I seem like the crazy one. If you

Jonathan (08:44.238)
Speak for yourself, lady.

Jonathan (08:56.344)
Love me.

Jonathan (09:00.083)
okay, okay.

Jonathan (09:04.206)
Perfect.

Jess (09:09.932)
met us all in a room, I think I seem crazier. But it's Slava, he's like such a, yeah, you're so, you guys are both ambitious go-getters, have a full schedule, you check things off lists, I don't.

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan (09:23.502)
Slava goes postal in his video games, so that's where he lets it out. I'm saving it up for one big pizazz. One big pizuzu.

one big shootout. Can we say that? we allowed to say that?

I don't know.

John shooter

what was my other? and I love self the whole, not really, I guess it's a kind of a theme. It is kind of like the fight club. He had a life that he didn't earn and he burnt it to the ground. Yeah. Partly literally. Yeah. Just like fight club. He just ruined every aspect of his life because of what he did, the guilt of what he did.

Jonathan (09:38.254)
That's my name.

Jonathan (09:49.454)
Mmm.

Jonathan (10:00.256)
It honestly, so last episode we talked a little bit about HP Lovecraft, which I want to bring up to you as well. But now that you mention it with the guilt, it kind of reminds me a little bit of Crime and Punishment, which is the worst book ever written.

I remember you saying that. Yeah. I haven't read it. now, because you said that, I have it in my room. I don't know if I want to read it. You should read it.

collection.

Jonathan (10:25.454)
It's just, yeah, yeah. No, no, it's actually excellent. What I decided though, and actually I should just send you the article I wrote. What I decided is that the reason I felt like I hated the story was because of my personality conflicting with the personality of the character. And so I had trouble relating to the character, which is why I titled my article, Crime and Punishment is the Worst Book Ever Written.

that isn't you don't really feel that way.

Slava (10:51.426)
Jonathan relates to the guy that beats the horse to death. That's more of his cup of tea.

I'm a one and done kind of guy. Like I do it, I forget that it happened and I move on.

Of all the landlady's he's killed, not even a shed of guilt.

Well, joke's on you, I've never had a landlady, only landlords.

his guilt will manifest as another person probably in time. It's probably coming out now.

Jonathan (11:11.096)
That's right, that's right.

Jonathan (11:15.532)
That's right. So Jess, have you read Lovecraft at all?

No, I tried to finish and I can't pronounce it. Yes, I'm how many pages in? I'm five pages into it. have one of those really cool Barnes and Noble edition books. That's like really pretty Tales of Lovecraft. I have it with me. I'm gonna show it to you, hold on.

Call of Cthulhu.

Jonathan (11:36.75)
you should send a photo of that. yeah. Let's see it. Is it just Cthulhu or is it the Necronomicon or the Omnibus? that's cool looking.

I have this.

That is cool looking.

Yeah, it was on. Yeah, I gotta get the sticker off so it looks better. It was not $24.99 as it says. It was definitely on sale for like $12.99 or something.

yeah, a must buy. Yeah. For sure.

Jess (12:00.738)
You know those Barnes and Noble, the beautiful, like really cool, magical looking editions. I have Great Expectations by Charles Dickens. That one I actually reread. It is weird reading such a pretty- love-

some foil on pretty copy books.

Yeah, but I always have issues reading pretty copy books. Like I'm like, I'm going to ruin them. I like that one. This one doesn't have like drawings on it. That's cool.

yeah, the basement flooded recently and I just haven't put the books back yet. It was raining and the foundation's not great. But I have a small set of really fancy books from Brandon Sanderson from his Kickstarters the other year. that's beautiful. And they're all foiled and very pretty.

How did the basement flood?

Jess (12:40.204)
Yeah, I have like a shelf just for like these really like cool additions. Cause you know, the rest of my books are just like beat up and looking.

I need to do that.

Jonathan (12:47.81)
Yeah, paperbacks for daily readers. So anyway, you're five pages into Cthulhu and...

I like it so far, but I have, I was like hoping to read more of it this morning, but then my daughter ruined it, interrupted.

She spoiled the whole story for you. She's like, this is what happens in Cthulhu.

She didn't read it yet.

I wouldn't recommend this, I might recommend, if anything, by Stephen King, a short storybook, and it might be this one, this one she might like. But horror, I don't think she'd read it or anything. Probably one for the length and two, and I do wanna bring this out, because I don't love it in stories, animals, getting hurt, getting killed. It bothers me, I get why they do it. Well, because I guess if anything, throws you off, it throws you off Rainy being potential.

Jonathan (13:20.738)
Mm-hmm

Jess (13:38.05)
I think that's the only thing it could possibly do. But it's so much worse when you realize it is more, because he killed his cat, his cat who loved him. He held him in his little arms, he trusted him. It's like, you know that story, like I almost, I probably cried in it when they killed the dog. Yeah, and that poor dog still wagged his tail. that kills me, that part. I'm glad they didn't go into such great detail with it. I hate.

Yeah.

Jess (14:02.446)
I mean, I love children a lot, but like something about reading about animals just somehow hurts me more. I think maybe because animals never like, animals never, my opinion, you my dad actually argued that cats might understand their mortality and there's no way. I don't know how he gets that. I don't get his argument, but like, you know, our animals, they don't think the way we do. We're like, even a child has more understanding of life than, you know, so this poor, I don't even know what I'm saying. I'm getting upset.

That upset me in the story and it upset me even more when I was like, that killed his own cat.

Mm.

Definitely in movies and in books animal abuse or violence towards animals. I it more than I do against even children

Yeah.

Jess (14:48.044)
baby then you care.

Yeah, curb-stopping babies won't upset me as much as an abusive dog. Jonathan, on the other hand, was turned down by both.

Yeah, I know.

What I write in my journal is for me, my therapist, and apparently you to read.

You bring up your journal.

Jess (15:04.238)
Is it a really girly journal like how you see people with journals that like they have like a lot of they more drawings and like little decor things. It's almost like a scrap.

Does Slava love me or does he not? Does he love me? Mm-hmm. No, no, it's just a moleskin where I slather my thoughts against a blank lined sheet.

like a fecal Picasso or a fecal Jason Pollock. All in a word.

Who hurt you, Slava?

It can't be that bad. Nothing can be bad as Pollock. Pollock's art.

Slava (15:35.426)
Well, a conspiracy theory says the CIA commissioned Pollock, who was like a no-name, ridiculous person, and they saw his art and they did an experiment of sorts, and they commissioned him to paint more and then used marketing and, I guess, Psy-Up tactics to make him popular.

There's no way. My dad's like, well, they're kind of interesting when you look at them. No, they're not. They're a giant mess. I've had this talk with several people. Modern art just as bad in general, just awful.

I like a very small amount of fine art. I mean, fine art, modern art. I like fine art just fine. There's some modern art, and I couldn't name you anything right now, but if I see it, I'll be like, yeah, that's the kind of modern art that's kind of funky and cool. But a lot of it is just like, I don't know what you're doing.

Like I love photography, like modern photography is still good. I mean, some of it's weird, but like still can look at, not, you know, modern art. Like we get it, you don't have talent and you want to be famous. Art is not accessible to everybody. Like I can draw. I mean, I'm sure if I practiced really well, I could get very good, but I mean, I'm not Da Vinci. Like I just know it.

Futurslava, can you cut our comment about Stephen King being a terrible writer and pair it up next to Jess's, we get it, you have no talent and you want to be famous, and just put that as the intro?

Jess (16:58.862)
You know what though, with some of, what is it, you like it darker? Is it you like it darker? Some of that I didn't like at all. And I could say some of those stories could just burn. Stephen King just wrote them for, he had to, probably had a deadline coming up.

man.

Slava (17:15.192)
contract obligations.

Yeah. But let's bring it back to the secret garden, secret window here. Some of the themes that we see in the book, split identity and dissociation that you started talking about, guilt and denial that we also started talking about, the dark side of creativity, which we've not talked about. Yeah. Revenge and self-destruction touched a little on isolation, unreliable perception and madness, which I do want to get on maybe near the end. So which one of those do you want to start to?

Ooh, I like that.

Jonathan (17:45.368)
jabbering on about here, Jess.

I feel like my question that I talked to Slava about would kind of tie into me a little bit with the creativity. How did you phrase that? Dark side of creativity.

The dark side of creativity, yeah.

Which story version of the story did you like better? Mort Rainey's or John Shooter's? When they compared the little snippets of it.

That's a good question. I'd say... probably Mortz.

Jess (18:11.106)
Really? That's controversial, I think, because I picked shooter. And what do you install? What do you, you said?

So

And it's a standoff.

think I like shooter when you and I talked Jess shooters kind of stood out as a little bit more gritty Yeah, some ways and I thought that was that was cool

think it was meant to be even like maybe a little bit better, like slightly better. Cause that would be, that would go with the story. Like he stole his story from kind of a caricature of the, you know, the guy who was, I can't remember the name of the guy that he did steal the work from. He was like a southerner, a guy that, you know, he wouldn't expect in disguise, a guy he wouldn't expect. Oh yeah. So like, this is like, feel like he want, he would give his enemy the better story with his mind even more.

Slava (18:56.431)
That makes sense. that makes perfect sense.

So has, so Shooter has to be the better writer, even though you like the other one better.

Hey, fair enough. When I think about the dark side of creativity, I think about those who in the past, in our real world, were creatives but also possessed by something unusual. I guess I'd put it on a scale. Something from unusual to sheer madness. And I start with unusual because I think of Salvador Dali, who I actually really love a lot of his work and the history of how he came to be. He started getting into the surrealist

movement found a way to make his way to the top by befriending people, then started a, what would you call it? A rivalry by creating a nemesis with someone who'd never heard of him by releasing letters that he publicly wrote that guy, which then threw him into the spotlight. So Dolly is unusual, but then I think of the dark side of creativity with people like Edgar Allan Poe, who like married his sister or cousin or whatever it was. People like H.P. Lovecraft who descended into madness.

I would even say that Philip K. Dick was kind of in the mid to leaning towards darker side of creativity with some of the stuff that he was getting into. Sometimes we read things and we go, whoa, that was pretty deep and dark. I always like to take a step back and go, did the author show this to his mother or a family member and go, hey, what do think of my writing? And they go, are you okay? This is a rape scene, right? Or this is killing an animal.

Jonathan (20:34.654)
or this is a pedophile, something just the dark side of humanity. And they wrote it and they're selling books on it. And I think about what it takes to step into a place like that without, to bring it back to the story here, without descending into madness yourself.

Yeah, because it's a little bit like method acting in the sense you have to get your head in that space. Because I write poetry. That's the thing. I consistently write. I want to write other things. But like Slava said, to sit down and do it, I haven't sat down and done that work. I have sat down and wrote poetry because I don't journal. But I get very upset sometimes. And I'm like bawling. And sometimes it's what deters me from writing is that I get so emotional.

Mmm

because a lot of it's on grief and stuff. And a lot of the stories that I get inspired to write have to do with grief, which is one of the hardest topics, one of the hardest themes to have to sit there and, you know, say stew, stew's not the right word, but you kind of have to seep yourself into it when you're writing these things. kind of like the way a method actor would go crazy, but like how you just named a bunch of people, I can think of a ton of, know, Sylvia Plath and Sexton. yeah.

Virginia Woolf and Sylvia Plath's book, her magnus opus is the bell jar, which is semi-autobiographical. And then it ends up being completely, well, in real life, we all know how she died. also killed herself. Virginia Woolf also, Virginia Woolf, yeah, she killed herself too. Anne Sexton was writing as an assignment from her psychiatrist. So there is that thing, sometimes I feel like,

Jonathan (21:57.87)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan (22:10.016)
Hmm

Jess (22:19.222)
these people, are plagued with madness, but they do some of their right when they're out, you know, a little bit out of it. But does it affect them? Keep it kind of keep them in that kind of tail. So because no one's going to read Sylvia Plath happy story, poetry or stories or, know, we like the dark side and kind of have to connect with it to tap into that.

Why do you think we like the dark side so much?

Probably because of death.

Yeah, maybe it's a way of coping with inevitable

And it's kind of like a freedom, you know? When you're crazy, you can completely be yourself. You know what I mean? I don't if you've ever been, have you ever gone a little crazy? And I was probably like most myself, not in a good way.

Jonathan (22:58.808)
For simplicity's sake, I'd probably say yes, a little bit.

Yeah, everybody's gone a little crazy. I've gone pretty crazy, not full shooter crazy. I, you know, that's actually like, I probably wouldn't be here.

No, not just-

That's right.

Gonna get a knock on the door soon. Woo woo! Yeah, but it's a fear of mine for sure. This is a fear of mine I just sent into madness.

Jonathan (23:20.534)
Mmm, interesting.

Because you never know you're going mad.

Yeah, and then it's too late and then you have to give into it, like in the story.

That's actually a question that I kind of regularly step back on top of to ponder is how does one manage to keep themselves from deception or madness? I think it's interchangeable in this question. A routine. I haven't found routine, yeah.

I think that's what they teach you in a psych ward is a certain routine having a support, people keep you grounded in reality.

Jonathan (23:52.566)
And so Mort, because he's blacked routine, he lives in isolation. Even the townsfolk only kind of just know him as this, know, la-di-da celebrity.

And he's kind of revered as being like the great writer. That probably doesn't help. I feel like it goes to his head a little bit too. He said he had another love and he can never keep... She couldn't compete with her, which was the work. But I wonder like he always wanted to be a better writer and he didn't like that he knew he wasn't the best writer.

sure.

Slava (24:24.086)
And Amy also mentioned in that conversation that, or maybe it was him reflecting back on the conversation, that she would get annoyed when he would be stopped by people and he would give autographs. And he enjoyed that so much, but for her, it was almost repulsive. She didn't want all that attention. She felt like it was too much. Yeah. And that made her withdraw also.

Yeah, he was buying something in the store in the cashier. It's like, have all of your books. I get an autograph? And then he was thinking about how it bothered Amy. And he liked it. But he also, like, one of the first things he said was how it would be easy for Shooter to find his house because so many people would boast that they know him. Kind of like, yeah, he lives on Tashmore Lake. So he definitely likes the fame, I feel like.

Mm-hmm. I have a favor to ask you. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up, we'll listen to your feedback, and read authors that you suggest. And of course, we'll take side quests along the way.

for sure.

Jess (25:34.488)
Do you agree with you, Jonathan? I that part, it's kind of off topic. And it's on topic, off topic of what, I don't know where you're going right now. But I agreed with you in the last, it should have been easier for him to get a copy of the story. Yeah. That part I was like, maybe not at the local, I feel like the local library would have a section for him. Like you guys talked about, he really doesn't have a, I know he doesn't live there all the time. It is the second house. There's gotta be things that writers have in place.

that they can easily disprove, improve the date of something because it's been published publicly and then republished. Like I feel like his publisher should be able to have sent some sort of verification to Shooter. Not that Shooter was really taking anything. Obviously they never gave him, mean Mort couldn't give himself the magazine with the story in it. Cause the whole point, that wasn't the point, but like it was like days and days and like, I'm sure you could have gotten a copy before, you know, pre-enter it.

Yeah, but he's sleeping half the day and murdering folks the other day.

That's another, he's sleeping way too, a little bit too much. I was like, I think that's one of the giveaways. That's the foreshadowing, he sleeps so much. The story being a little bit better than his, I feel like that's foreshadowing, but you would only see it going back.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, what? Did you take notes, Jess?

Jess (26:50.86)
I took some notes. just, they're so messy. They're not anything like your notes.

I mean, feel free to bring them up and we can, we'll weave it in, you know?

agree with Jonathan, it should have been easier to get a copy. There's that note. his paranoia, his paranoia that he, I think the other foreshadowing was his paranoia that he did steal it and how every story he wrote, he felt like he was stealing. He said it was from, you know, that well of ideas that we all, you know, drink from, the story ideas. We all are telling different versions of the same story. We all use elements like the Fight Club similarities between Secret Window.

there.

Jess (27:27.566)
Secret Garden, that's the title of the book. Secret Garden. Secret Window, Secret Garden.

Yeah, Windows. Okay. We say it wrong throughout the first episode too. It's just.

It sounds like should be Secret Garden, Secret Window. I don't know why. That we all have the same ideas. It seemed like it was a bigger deal. It really bothered him because he knew he had done it before. He was so paranoid that he did steal the story. And it wasn't just from the well of ideas, because he didn't just steal from the well of ideas, he stole someone's literal story. And that the story, the other foreshadowing is that the story was unlike anything else he had written.

Hmm.

Jess (28:06.03)
because they said even Shooter was like, doesn't, people had said it didn't fit with the other stories. The publisher had said it, I think, or was it Amy? Publisher Amy had said it didn't fit with other stories. And then John Shooter was like, it wasn't like any of your other stories, because he was reading it on the bus or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and that struck me as odd in world that Shooter would say, hey, I came here in a bus and I bought one of your crappy paper books in like a little book stand in some truck stop. Meaning that this guy's a popular writer. Yeah. books are everywhere. It's not like he is a Dostoevsky or somebody who has studied in literary classes. His books are literally next to a stand at a gas station.

Yeah, like we'd be at an airport.

Yeah. So that's internal self-critique too, or self-doubt, or self-hatred, whatever it is. In Mort's head, the fact that he made that up through Shooter, that his books are just pretty much trash. Now, there's some good books at truck stop book stands or airport stands that don't have just crappy, popular books. They have a lot of other books that people flock to or buy often because, for whatever reason,

Slava (29:22.784)
Anything from that to biographies, I've seen famous authors who are like historians and biographers. I've seen those books in airport stands too. So it's a range of books you find in those situations, but for Mort as a writer to create that, that his book was at some truck stop in Doc shit, Indiana or whatever shooter came from Mississippi. That I think is a little bit of self critique, internal self critique. I don't know. That's exactly the right term for it.

but it seems that way. He's isolated. He has this guilt. He has this desire for revenge against Amy and her lover, but at the same time he understands why Amy left. there's, it's like a pod boiling over inside of, inside of good old Morton.

Yeah, it's self-punishment for everything he did wrong.

Yes. First, let's talk a little bit about isolation. It's not presented as a central theme, although it's talked about by the other characters. And so we give the sense, yes, Morta's isolated and he's self-isolated. And I guess it's irrelevant whether it's fleshed out well to my desires. But the point is it's there. Would you agree with this statement? His isolation, him being in this secluded cabin,

reflects his own internal struggle, his own psychological isolation.

Jess (30:46.282)
Yes, I think if I understand the question.

Him as a character in the book, he is isolated. He's placed into this cabin far away from-

No, no, I do get what you're saying. Yeah. How he's, well, one, he's isolated by his one, secret too, his lifelong secret and that he bases his whole life off of and yeah, and then he's completely secluded and has like no friends and no ties to the outside world, which also allows any of this to go on. Oh, absolutely. if he had a son, like, you know, they had a kid they had partial custody of, this wouldn't be the same story.

It would take longer for him to go insane, Because he would have to take care of the kid, feed the kid. Actually, that's actually true. Instead of feeding the kid, he maybe stabs the kid or kills the kid, and then the kid is missing, or he creates a story around that.

or be way worse, way more rude.

Jess (31:36.002)
Bump is what he does to bump to the kid.

Yeah, or the kid reminds him of what he lost with Amy and he takes out his anger on the kid somehow. So yeah. Like good old Lynn.

Like Shalon's father.

do feel a little bad for the people he does kill, because they're so barely involved. Barely involved in the knee kills him.

Yeah.

Jonathan (32:00.11)
I actually think him having a kid would have made him not descend into madness. Similar to the point that you made earlier, Jess, because it requires you to have some sort of routine because you have to keep the child alive.

with a kid, you don't get to always think about yourself. which is good, because you don't dwell on the things that you kind of, you don't get to indulge the madness. That's a thing, like every time I feel crazy, I tell myself, this is so dumb. I tell myself, don't lean into it, because like, it's like there's like a point where you can go back from getting too depressed or, know, me, I get like a very obsessive and, you know, or depressed.

And I'm like, don't do things that you know make it worse. And one is isolating. It's like when I go out of my way to not talk to people, I usually get worse. And it's just like, I'm just short with everybody. I can even be a little mean to my friends just to, know, cause it gets you that space. But yeah, no isolation and going crazy go hand in hand.

Hmm.

Slava (33:00.61)
Yeah, that's reflected in so many other stories where people are alone and they go mad or they are mad and they seek isolation because of the madness.

Writing such a lonely, know, it is a very solitary, lonely thing, yeah. What kind of writer is Mort, though? Is he, I can't remember, he's not a horror, like that story was different than his other, so I'm guessing his other stories are not horror related. Right. Can even tell us what kind of writer he is?

100%.

Slava (33:31.702)
I think he's just a fiction writer. Okay. Those kind of details often slip away from me.

I'd like to know. You know, that whole thing, like, Jonathan's always like a little bit more, like, we could have had a little bit.

I look it up. I have the Kindle book here.

Organs, what is it? The Organ Grinders' son or something is the name of his book. Something funny. It does, but I might be saying it wrong. I don't know if I'm saying the title right.

That sounds like a horror.

Slava (33:56.79)
I'm trying to look through the first pages of the Kindle book. I don't know if we get any specifics about what kind of writer he is. The titles seem psychological thriller horror-esque to me.

He has to be, he's famous and he's, I don't know if he's like a serial like writer, cause I don't think he has that many books. They say he doesn't have that many published books. Yeah. And then the short story, like he has novels. No, I think the organ grinder, that's his short, his most famous novel. But what about the thing that he got in trouble for the Delacorte family? One where they accused him of plagiarism, but then it wasn't plagiarism. No.

Yeah, thought it was like three or four.

Jonathan (34:35.918)
Are you talking about real life?

Now in the book too.

Yeah. Oh, no, he was accused of plagiarism like a million times. I didn't realize how many times I know if you were going to wanted to go over that.

We should.

They're king.

Jess (34:48.949)
It was like a lot.

We only briefly touched on it last time, so I think going over it'd good.

I watched that video you sent me, the guy with the hat on. Shooter, yeah, he looked like him. in the movie though, it's Irving from Severance that plays Shooter. Yeah, he does a good job. Yeah, that's his last name. I love that guy. It took me like a minute to even realize it was him, because I rewatched it, you know, this week. Yeah, did you watch Severance, Jonathan? You gotta, so. Yep, and the show From, if you have MGM.

He was trying to be a shooter.

Slava (35:02.946)
Yeah. Juncture tour.

Slava (35:11.544)
He's in severance.

Mm-hmm. haven't seen it. That's Apple, isn't it?

Jess (35:22.638)
I feel like no one has MGM. I've never even heard of MGM until my friend told me to watch the show from it. It's so good. It's an old store sounding story. It's a story about people who can't get out of a town. It's like inescapable for reasons, but like it's really good. And it's not tired, even though like there's monsters. It's not just a plain monster. It's very interesting. And it has that actor and I can't remember his name that I like in it. So.

I either of those.

Jonathan (35:29.612)
What's the premise?

Jess (35:50.158)
I definitely recommend it. There's three seasons. It's gonna be like a year before the next season comes out. So I'm depressed about that. Not for real, but you know what I mean? I hate waiting. Cause now that Severance is over, then I had From to replace it. Now I have nothing. I'm have to it. Back to the books. Cause that definitely distracts me from reading TV.

back

the books with you.

Jonathan (36:08.27)
Did you ever watch the haunting of Hill House?

No, is that, it on Netflix?

Yeah, I just started it last year. And I don't know. That was going to be my follow up if you've read the book. Oh, I haven't read the book.

I read the book.

Jess (36:22.126)
Have you guys read Shirley Jackson? You have a slava? You would love Shirley Jackson, because it's like horror. I brought her up before at a podcast. We have always lived in the castle. They did a movie on it. The movie's not as good. Shy got mad, because Shy liked the book a lot. But remember, Mary Cat was stolen. Mary, whatever the girl's name is, Mary was stolen from Mary Cat. That's why was like, I know the whole story, like at the second page. know the whole story, because they're doing a blatant.

I don't think I have.

Jonathan (36:34.296)
Sounds like a ghost or.

Jess (36:49.76)
reference or allusion, whatever the hell, allusion to the original work. way too much. Way too much of an homage. Just ruins that. was too much that, too much that, just as a person who put a bunch of really good work together and made a bad work, bad... if you guys want to do a Shirley Jackson book, I'm definitely into that.

Hmm.

Jonathan (37:10.414)
All right. What's the first recommendation?

Yeah, let's do it.

The Haunting of Hill House is really good. that's Yeah, yeah. That's why I brought her up. I stole them. But it's for I stole it from the library, the local library. But I don't think they have it on my record. Like, I think I can still go and open a library card. It would be like on my father owes them like 50 million dollars for that book. still I still have.

Yeah, do they have her cap? Library finds.

I stole one when I was like 12.

Jonathan (37:38.638)
What if you steal it because you moved? Because your parents had to work? I'm just curious. Any librarians out there? You got the inside scoop, 10 cents a day and then capped at $50 or something like that?

Did you read the next story in this book, the anthology? The library policeman? Yeah. When you don't turn your books in.

That's coming up later this

that's about that.

Yeah, it didn't happen to me though, I'm fine.

Jonathan (38:05.368)
Book police, like Seinfeld.

yeah, no, I like that one. That's yeah, that's the modern day. That's the modern day version of that too. Alexa is not that modern. That's old too.

Do you find us Lava?

I think so. I asked Google to summarize the video that I sent to Jess and there seems to be six times King was accused of plagiarism. I know for sure one was for misery and one was for the body. Those I remember distinctly from me being alive in the world and keeping up with Stephen King.

Was it stealing, was it plagiarism as in he stole their life? Like he was, the guy with the bomb was accusing him of stealing the life story of his Yes, yes. so was he ever accused of stealing like an actual story, the writing?

Slava (38:58.734)
So there was two accusations about misery, if I remember correctly. I could be getting this wrong, audience, correct me. But there was the guy who said you stole my aunt's story when you wrote misery. And there was a woman who said that he literally stole this idea from her about misery. And for the body, think it was like a former acquaintance said, hey, that was my story. Like we talked about it and I pitched this idea to you. that's. But all that is.

from the memory banks of my feeble mind. So take that with a grain of salt. Those are what I remember. And that's what popped up in my search. But I probably need to do a better prompt for the search so I'm not lying to the audience.

They're gonna come haunt you down.

I heard it was also for, I think, the Watchtower series.

Yeah, the Dark Tower series. There was a guy who sued him for the Dark Tower series too. That was a recent one. That was into like the 20... the aughts, I think, or something. It was in the 2020s. was early.

Jess (40:07.362)
Yeah, some of them were really recent. But if you write that many, I feel like you write that many books, you're gonna have a lot of people. Then being that famous is gonna bring out a bunch of crazy people. Because I think he has a lot of crazy fans, obviously.

I'd say that sounds right. But this provokes a question, and you brought this up earlier a little bit. At what point is it just part of the creative ether that both people are tapping into because we live in the same world? And at some point, we're going to both be taking in the same sensory input from the stuff that's happening around us. At what point is that the case?

And we both might want to, let's say we wanted to write the same book and like we had the same idea for the book and we both had the same like love for a certain style of writing. So like our characters would be described in a more similar fashion if it's very minimalist and then the dialogue would be influenced by that. So we could end up with a very, very similar story.

Yeah. Yeah. Like what's the line on something like that? Do you guys know or is it? No.

I you know it's kind of like that the pornography thing you know it when you see it you know it's plagiarism That's what they say. That's what they didn't they say that in the Supreme Court case for pornography Am I just making that up? I know they say that's I know pornography when I see it versus all

Jonathan (41:18.702)
What they say

Jonathan (41:28.782)
seems like a poor description.

I could be mixed in couples.

No, makes sense because if you see an art piece from the Renaissance and it's a bare-chested woman and there's nudity, that's not pornography. If you see a Playboy spread, it's pornography. Yeah, without even knowing that it's from a Playboy spread, if somebody showed you a nude art piece and somebody showed you a woman posing for a porn mag, you'd know the difference.

there's like, lying.

Jess (41:57.4)
But then there's the gray line people who insist something's art, but it's like, that seems a little too sexual to be art. like certain nude erotic.

It's a slippery slope though, Slava. I understand what you're saying, but it's a slippery slope to not have a clear definition. It's important to work out the friction of a clear definition of something. That's kind of very flashy topic, pun intended, guess. Where it's like, okay, yeah, if said piece is older than 200 years and there's nudity, then statistically probably not pornography.

Please.

Jonathan (42:36.398)
However, if you went to the early 1900s, let's say 100 years ago, so like 1920 and earlier, where they had, you know, gentlemen's clubs where the women were scandalous in the time period, right? They weren't going to be fully nude. I don't know. I think you'd still probably classify that as pornography for the time period. So I just think that being like, well, I'll know it when I see it is a very slippery slope to call the definition in the court of law.

Well, for plagiarism would be hard, because you heard it with the songs. I feel like it was creep, the song creep. Someone had said, someone had stolen that. a lot of songs sound similar. And I don't know where you draw the line of music. definitely wouldn't know. Writing, I feel like I'd be able to see it more easily. Like the Fight Club and Secret Window, Secret Garden. Like you can see how they're so similar yet so different. The execution and the...

the way you, how the story's told is the big, is a big difference. But obviously there, was clearly plagiarism with the story for John Shooter and Mort Rainey. Cause they were the same story just phrased differently. And I just thought John Shooter's phrasing was better, like better writing.

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan (43:52.056)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I'd imagine for somebody like King, who has been accused a handful of times, I assume it is difficult for him to maybe trust people who come to him and say, hey, can you read my manuscript? writers get that crap all the time.

think he purposely doesn't read manuscripts for that reason. I feel like he says that on his website. I read it somewhere or maybe in on writing, the book on writing, because I did read that. He said, and I think also he doesn't want to be influenced by someone's manuscript. Because that's a big thing. We're so easily influenced by others and you can see it in like language and how we speak. A lot of like little kids talk, like it's sad when you see little kids talking like they spend too much time online.

Yeah, so did I. That's a good-

Jonathan (44:22.894)
Correct. Yeah.

Jonathan (44:36.11)
Hmm.

And it's just, very, we're easily socially influenced by things. And that's part of why I'm very, I can be picky about what I read, is I don't wanna be influenced by certain things. So I try not to consume too much like trash or like junk, the intellectual equivalent of junk food.

Yeah. Yep. I know what you're saying. Yeah.

I it's why I won't like, I'm sure I could get sucked into, I'm sure I'm capable of watching Keeping Up with the Kardashians if that's still a show, but I don't want to. And I don't want to be influenced by that family, which has a very pervasive, you know, influence on culture. So I avoid it.

I avoid most reality TV for that same reason. As much as I like brain rot and I'll watch reels or memes with some of them that are just silly or out of pocket nonsense, stuff like Catching Up With The Kardashians or whatever the hell it is, or most reality TV shows, there's a level of degeneracy in them that's not like full blown pornography.

Jess (45:24.748)
You silly.

Slava (45:44.056)
but it's just this underlying kind of subtle pervasive degeneracy that slowly sleeps in and then you're desensitized to it. And that's what I don't like about it. I'm also a pluralist where I wouldn't want to sanction or censor them. Yeah, same. But at the same time, if most of us, meaning the populace would say, nah, I don't want to watch that, not even for the vibes or the lulls. The vibes. And stop.

then they wouldn't make that because it's a consumer society we live in. They're popular because people gobble that up. I'm not better than anybody for not gobbling that up, but I think it's trash.

Didn't you say Stephen King said, like when I read Faulkner, I wrote like Faulkner or I might be paraphrasing that. yeah. I think that too. So like I try to read things that I would aspire to.

Yeah, he said that in an interview, or maybe a lecture at UMass. He said, when I read Faulkner, I sounded like Faulkner when I consumed a lot of H.P. Lovecraft, a lot of my work sounded like H.P. Lovecraft. And he was saying that as an encouragement to young writers who are trying to find their voice. And he said, you will eventually find your voice if you continue to write daily and exercise this muscle. Now I'm paraphrasing him.

but you will sound like the writers that you consume. My short story, which we've discussed numerous times on this podcast that is, you know, in book purgatory on my computer, there's parts of it that sound like Stephen King. And I went back and tried to rewrite them because I don't want to sound like Stephen King, even though I like Stephen King. I don't want to sound like me, but it's a horror story.

Slava (47:35.082)
And one thing that I do want to, quote unquote, steal from Stephen King is the ability to merge past and present. The way he goes from past to present sometimes and tells a backstory then gets back right into the present time. He does it here, he does it in it, he does it all over the place. That I wanna emulate. But the cadence of certain things, dialogue, action, I don't wanna sound like Stephen King, I wanna sound like myself.

Especially the dialogue. I like the seamless, the seamlessness, I think that you're talking about, Slava, with the time travel, in a sense. I love that by him. I do not love the dialogue, and I do feel like a lot of times it's the same. I'm stuck in the same dude's head. I wrote that in my notes. I'm in the same dude's head. Stephen King has a very specific voice and dialogue, and it's...

It's in all his stuff. I don't even know what to call it. It's just very Stephen King dialogue. And it sounds a little bit old fashioned to me. I think it's because it's him and he's getting older and he's old fashioned now.

Michael Corretten's the same way, and John Grisham, all three of them are popular writers. And they admit it, so this is not a knock on them, and they are where they are. They all have what you're talking about, a cadence to it, a sound to the dialogue, a flow to the action. They all have their own way of doing things. If you read The Firm by Grisham, and then you read A Time to Kill, which is an earlier work, and then you read, I think, The Client.

is next book I read. I think those are the three Grisham books I read. They all sound alike. If you read a Michael Crichton book, I read Jurassic Park, The Adramanus Train, Congo, Sphere. They all have a particular pace to them. And I don't know the right word for it is. I've used four different words to describe it, but whatever you're talking about, Jess, there's a voice to an author. And Stephen King has his.

Jess (49:38.776)
I mean, I think all authors do. I mean, there's some that change so much that like you're, you know, once you read like a really good book and you're looking for something else, kind of like it, you go to the other book, like how I read all those Philip Roth books in a row. And then I got kind of burned out on Philip Roth, like, so my favorite, what you put on, I think the website is one of my favorite books is Jesus Son by Dennis Johnson. He has passed away, I believe. I believe he's passed away.

I always wanted another book like that, but his other books aren't written like that at all. Like he has other good work for sure. So I'm glad I discovered him, but like I want another book like that. And it just, doesn't exist. If you can stand the way that the writer writes, then it's not a horrible thing that they have a repeat sort of, you know, their little, their voice, their thing, their style that I don't even know if he can change if you want it to. And it's in the dialogue, but yeah, it's not something I would, there's aspects.

that you admire of him, that one, specifically the dialogue, it's not one I'd wanna emulate. Just like I wouldn't wanna write in a hyper, what is it? Like the way people write, I've read it in books that were free on Kendo Unlimited, where they talk very slangy like a Gen Z kid in high school. like, let's not write like that. Like, and using emojis, using emojis on a book. Shouldn't be allowed.

Like if you're writing a Gen Z character and you give him Gen Z slang to say in the book, that's fine because that's how people talk or maybe you're writing a particular kind of character. But if it's not woven together well, it becomes, know, kitsch. Like, okay.

Like we get it, yeah, it would get annoying.

Slava (51:25.538)
For example, if King wrote a based in the 1980s about adventures of a high school kid and that kid happened to like the Ninja Turtles and every other page was a reference to the turtles or he said Kawabanga or eat my shorts, which is a Simpsons reference actually. But if he did that, that would be bad, bad writing in King's part. Like he does have...

slang and words and even you know, manners of speech that are in line with the timeline of the book. And he grew up during the 50s, 60s. So when he writes about the 60s, well, the 50s specifically in it and the 60s in 11, 22, 63, it flows well. It makes sense because they use

references and manners of speech that were around during those decades that were popular slang and all that stuff but emojis and just a run-on sentence of gen z or gen x or pick your generation that's just awful awful and bad bad writing like my sentence there

Plus no one will get it. Some people might not understand it in 50 years. I'll say something and my daughter will be like, no one says that anymore. I'm like, I heard it last week. Someone says it still, but she'll act like I'm so behind the times for something I just learned. Cause there's so much slang now.

Right.

Jonathan (53:01.418)
Mm-hmm. We've gotten pretty off track here, folks.

off track only slightly if we're gonna be a casual book club. One hell of a side quest, I'll admit. But let's see how we can get back.

And if you feel like it's on topic, then more power to us. just doesn't-

Well we're talking about plagiarism, talking about style of writing, we're talking about voice, seems. We're not discussing the intricacies of Mort's Descendant of Madness. You can bring us back into something you want to talk about and we'll go with that.

Just the link that I sent you is the only stuff that I've really got for themes and things like that Hey, it's dangerous to go alone So don't you should always side quest with friends hit that subscribe button and join the party

Slava (53:47.584)
All right. Well, let's jump back into the story real quick and specifically the ending. Jess, this question is for you first and then Jonathan second. You said something before we started recording Jess, based on the notes we shared is that King's narrative makes you question what's real until the very end. And you know, something about trusting your own mind. I want to take that as a segue into discussing the ending.

So based on the epilogue, we see that Shooter was somehow manifested into reality by Mort. Mort's shot, he's dead, he's been bared, you know, whatever, he's dead now. And we get a glimpse through Amy into, not a glimpse, we get a clue from Amy that Shooter actually exists because he writes her a note.

Now could be argued that Moore did it preemptively in his maddened state. But let's assume that shooter is now real. Do you love it? Do you hate it?

So far right now, I like the ending. I feel like at first I didn't love it, you know, a ghost ending. didn't love the idea of that. I think they kind of set it up with how Amy sort of has like, you know, the psychic power or she has some sort of gift to pick up on things. I don't know if that's to show like, it's Shooter and not Morty leaving like the little notes and how he's become a real person. But did he overtake? kind of won.

in a sense, feel, kind of feel like, don't know if that's the point of the ending with having, you know, the note from shooter, you know, the hat from shooter showing up.

Slava (55:35.532)
Yeah, I think you're right about shooter winning because that is clear when Mort goes insane and tries to kill Amy.

Shooter is real in a sense, even if he doesn't become a ghost because it became a split personality. So yeah, Shooter's not a real separate person from Mort, but he's definitely a real person that carried out, know, Mort's deepest, you know, probably deepest desires to destroy his life. So I like the supernatural ending. makes it, again, it makes it different. So I think that's what I like about it.

Mm-hmm.

Slava (56:12.782)
I don't hate it. I wasn't blown away by it like my gosh shooter's real and now he's gonna be a ghost slash manifestation or something. I wasn't blown away by it, but I liked it. It was a decent ending.

They could have done it. When you said that, it me think, yeah, they didn't do it in a way that kind of left you with like an eerie, uncanny, you know, that feeling. That would have been cool though, had he done it in a way to make it, did it like a final creep out and leave on that note. it, you know, it didn't really, it was kind of like a nice, and it almost felt like a nice wrap up for Amy in a way, despite it being shooter. Like, I don't know.

Yeah, and the fact that Amy and the insurance adjuster both wake up with nightmares sometimes, that was kind of creepy, but still wasn't creepy enough for me. Yeah.

They went through a traumatic event. like, we'll have nightmares after that. That doesn't mean supernaturally scared. I mean, the way we think of spiritual warfare, nightmares are a part of it, but most people, nightmares, that's just a trauma sign and it passes after a while.

I would almost say that it's horror light, because it's kind of not as intricate or deep as we've read in other books. It would be the type of story I'd give someone who's like, maybe I like horror, and you just start with something like this, where it's like, it's not too much for them, but it's just gets the questioning happening.

Jess (57:38.498)
Yeah, it's more of a suspenseful story than a psychological thriller. It's definitely a psych, I'm sure the movie is considered psychological thriller rather than horror.

better way to put it.

Jonathan (57:47.064)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like Science of the Lambs, I would consider a psychological thriller, not horror. it's a- Yeah, Conjuring, that's horror. Yeah. Right? Exorcist, horror. Yeah. With psychological, you know, elements in it. yeah, this is definitely a psychological thriller with a sprinkling of horror and supernatural. But overall, I enjoyed it. Yeah. More so in my second reread, knowing what's coming and just enjoying the story King is trying to weave.

Perfect movie.

Jess (58:17.23)
appreciated the writing more after I read it and saw where the story was going. And then that's when I saw the other stuff like the foreshadowing. yeah, definitely my first impression was not as nearly as good as the second time around. And then, you know, the third time.

So each time you read it, it's more enjoyable? Did I understand that?

Yes, I don't know if I'll reread it again, maybe, I don't know, because I'm rereading the library policeman and then I have, I've never read the final story in the book. I can't remember the name of the sundog. I haven't read that one. But I feel like this one out of all of them so far, because I'm almost done with the library policeman, I see this being as the strongest one in the, without reading the fourth one at all, it seems like it's the strongest story in series.

The Sun Dog, yeah. Yeah, neither have I.

Jonathan (59:02.892)
Compared to, I'm reading each of these for the first time, I think I liked Langoliers better at the moment than this. And if you were to ask me why, I'd probably say the Langoliers felt more like King so far to me. was just, there was like both not enough madness and not enough plot points. was going say action, but I think plot points makes more sense, where it's almost like slice of life meets slow burn.

for me, whereas Langoliers, like you're constantly moving through it. So at the moment, Langoliers is my favorite. This is my second favorite. We'll see how the other two shake out.

Yeah, it's very internal, like I said, it's a very internal story. So his struggle is all in his head and like I said though, I liked being in his head.

Mm-hmm.

Slava (59:52.44)
I also like Langoliers better because it was a little bit more creepy. I read a lot of short stories by King, missed a bunch of stuff from Nightmares and Dreamscapes like Logan's Cadillac. All those stand out as better, more creepy, or more psychologically tintulating in the sense that there's more tension in the story and they're a little bit longer. So the reveal

in the mist, for example, is a great reveal. There's a great twist and it's not a one-to-one at all, but it's dragged out and the ending, leaves you like, whoa, okay. But here's like, okay, he's a ghost. And I think that's kind of cool. The manifestation of a character from a guy's head into the real world. That's kind of creepy. Okay. And I buy it. I'm not hating on it. I'm there for it, but they're okay stories. You know, I won't read this one again.

Probably. I'll read the Langoliers again if I ever, you know, feel bored and a nudge for a good Stephen King short story. And I haven't read the other two, so I don't know. The other two might blow Langoliers out of water. No. The Langoliers, I think I started it a couple of times, never finished it. And then I read it fully through, all the way through for our recording. Now I read this twice now.

thought you read all four of them.

Slava (01:01:22.21)
because I've read them since we started recording, but the other two, I haven't. The Langoliers and Secret, let me say it the right way, Secret Windows, Secret Garden, this is my second time reading it.

Bye.

and you just got the title right.

It only took a few tries.

We'll forget it after.

Slava (01:01:42.766)
Yeah, well, even the guy who did the recap video for it and talked about all the plagiarism cases against King, he even gets it wrong in the video. It's hard, And he even says it. He's like, crap, I'm saying it wrong again.

Secret window, secret garden, right?

Secret window, secret garden.

Yeah, I mean, the way that I remember it is he talks about the window first in the story and then looking out into the garden. And so it's like, your first you hear, then you're looking.

think you should just remember Secret Window, because I watched the movie first and Secret Window is just the name of the movie. I think that would stick in my stupid head, but...

Slava (01:02:18.222)
Well, even King's inspiration, we read the blurb that he writes in the book and on his website. The blurb that talks about the short story gives the reader an insight into how he came up with it. Even he says there, I noticed a window and then I noticed a garden. And the garden was being built by his wife at that time. So there was no garden there, but he notices this window in his laundry room. He's like, it's a window. What's outside? it's my wife building a garden.

So in the order of inspiration, in the order of the story, the movie, everything else, we should be able to figure out that it's secret windows, secret garden, but my brain goes, meh. that's it. Well, I think that brings us to not only the end of the book, but the end of this episode. Jess, you said you watched the movie. Let's end it here. So there's a movie adaptation as there is with many King works.

Nice.

Slava (01:03:17.058)
How does it stack up to the short story and what about the ending of the movie? Is it better? Good? Bad?

It might be more unsettling because he kinda seems to have embraced the shooter. I don't know if they integrate each other, but he, he doesn't die. doesn't die, which is a big part of it. Amy and Ted die from shooter slash Mort. I'm assuming he's buried them in the garden. He hasn't gotten caught.

despite, you know, he's killed more, he's killed four people. I think it's at least four people. Fred Evans isn't one of them, the guy who shoots him in the book, short story, novella, whatever we're calling it. But no, he ends with him like, he gets braces for some reason, and he's being creepy to the people in the town who don't like him. Like they no longer like him as the writer, because he's been accused of all the stuff and no one's been able to prove it yet. And he's eating corn.

because he's like obsessed with corn on the cob now. He's just buying sticks of butter and those little things and a pack of napkins. He's going to crazy on this corn that he's, you know, we're assuming, I'm assuming he's growing out of Ted and his Ted and Amy, he's eating corn that he's grown from the soil that they're, yeah, fertilizing.

So I pulled up the Wikipedia plot of the movie. After the persona takes full control of Mort, Amy arrives at the cabin, finding it ransacked, and sees the word shooter carved repeatedly on the walls and the furniture. Mort appears, wearing Shooter's hat and speaking and acting like him. Amy realizes the name Shooter represents Mort's desire to shoot her.

Slava (01:05:10.484)
he chases Amy and stabs her in the leg, of like the book. Ted, looking for Amy, arrives and is ambushed by Mord, who kills him with a shovel. Amy watches helplessly as Mord bludgeons Ted and then approaches her while reciting the ending of the in-world story, Sewing Season. Months later, Mord has recovered from his writer's block, just with a little bit of murder, and his passion for life has returned.

He is feared and shunned in town because of the rumors about the missing people associated with him. Sheriff Newsome arrives and tells Mort that he is the prime suspect in the supposed murders and the bodies will eventually be found. Newsome says that Mort is no longer welcome in town. Mort passively dismisses the threat and tells Newsome that the ending to his new story is perfect. It is implied that Amy and Ted's bodies are buried underneath the corn

grown in Mort's garden, allowing Mort to gradually eliminate any evidence of the murders. Now there's an alternative ending, which was included in a home media release, which is Mean's DVD, explicitly showing both Ted's and Amy's dead bodies underneath the corn patch.

So I feel like the ending's more Stephen King-like than Stephen King's ending. And it's acted out well, because it's Johnny Depp doing it. So he's real creepy with his braces and a smile and then the corn. It's a good image.

Does he have corn in the braces?

Jess (01:06:43.214)
No, I thought you couldn't eat corn on the cob with braces though. I hate corn on the cob. I've told you that. I don't like corn on the cob.

Good, we bought corn and a cow for lunch.

told you before, I don't like porn.

Well, you told my other personality. Yeah. now we're going to make a, we're going to take it off the cob. Do you hate corn altogether or?

I'm not a huge fan of corn. I'll eat corn. I'm not a huge fan. If it's mixed in things, you know what happens.

Slava (01:07:10.766)
Yeah, well, we're making tacos and it's gonna be like a corneoli thing for the tacos.

Hello, Tay?

I see that would be fine, when I do end up eating corn, it's because it's in Mexican stuff or Mexican food or something. Very cool.

It's from my garden.

You do not have a garden. Yeah. I can say I've seen her, her today.

Slava (01:07:27.212)
and my wife is alive.

You saw her apparition.

Slava (01:07:34.04)
Well, Jonathan, any final thoughts for us as we drive off to the horizon?

I would say if you cheat on your lover, you know, move to a different state.

That's good advice.

Thanks, Jess. I appreciate the balance.

Don't dwell on the past. Don't dwell on the past. Don't take naps.

Slava (01:07:54.862)
And they got it.

That's right. Burn it down and move forward.

Yeah, burn it down. That's right. Figuratively. Move forward. Get some new friends.

figuratively.

I think Shooter wrote in a different manuscript that Jonathan thought that a woman who would steal your love when your love was really all you had was not much of a woman. He therefore decided to move to a different state and not kill her. was an alternative. That's the healthy ending, Yeah.

Jonathan (01:08:19.896)
Alter.

That's a healthy ending.

Perfect. Well, thanks for letting me know how my story ends.

This is like, be the censored version of the book.

Nick at night version. Yeah.

Jonathan (01:08:32.94)
Alright, well, badee badee badee badee, that's all folks! Some people aren't gonna get that.

I got it. I got that one.

Our audience is over 25 primarily. They're going to get that. Hopefully.

Yeah, hopefully. Porky pig?

We'll see you next time.

Jonathan (01:08:50.251)
Roxy says goodbye. Isn't she our lawyer?

Legal team.

Jonathan (01:09:03.02)
I have a paper to ask you. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up, we'll listen to your feedback, and read authors that you suggest. And of course, we'll take side quests along the way.