Bloodline Part 2 - Will Wight - Progression Fantasy Book - Anime in Book Form

We're still on Cradle, Side Questers. We are on the ninth book in Will Wight's Cradle series, Bloodline. And it gets a little spicy.  Frankly, it's embarrassing. But only for Jonathan.

ABOUT THE BOOK

In Bloodline (Cradle Book 9) by Will Wight, Lindon returns to Sacred Valley to evacuate his family and villagers before the Wandering Titan Dreadgod destroys the area. Although he possesses great power, an ancient curse limits his abilities, complicating his efforts as he encounters resistant villagers and strained family relationships.


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Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

[Slava]
Ethan and Lyndon stood over the grimy pit. It's in this book where Yeren realizes why her master died, because of the suppression field. So there's that thing that she's wrestling with, it's a grim realization.

Oh, this is why he died.

[Jonathan]
It just shows the development of the author and his writing ability.

[Slava]
Absolutely, it's cosmic. And the whole thing is cosmic, because you have the Abaddon, you have the Mad King, you have the Dread God.

[Jonathan]
Coming to you from an endless library, where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves. This is the SideQuest Book Club.

What happens when you have been given a vision that your hometown is going to be destroyed, and you decide that you're going to become strong enough to make sure that you can save it, and you think that you have three to five years, but actually, you only have 18 months. Well, we look at that today on Bloodline Part 2, where Lyndon has returned to Sacred Valley. So let's get into it.

Welcome back, SideQuesters.

[Slava]
Yeah. Nope, that's not what I want to say. That's dumb.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Slava]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, welcome back. We're going to do a quick, quick overview of the plot. I'm just going to hit major points, and then we'll get into Part 2 real quick.

So, Nine Cloud City, Saishan Daji has been captured. He gets accused of stuff. He is a coward, so he doesn't want to admit it.

Lyndon beats his ass. Akura Fury ascends to the Abaddon. Lyndon and Yaren convince Akura Charity to allow them to help evacuate Sacred Valley.

You know, does not welcome them, as we would expect. At Sacred Valley, it becomes clear that Yaren's ascension to Herald was imbalanced. She is disproportionately impacted by the Boundary Field, but she continues with the group.

Other than the Kazan, who are quickly convinced to leave, the clans and schools are stubborn. When the Wandering Titan arrives, Yaren calls in a favor with Malice to have her delay it while they continue evacuating. And then Lyndon and company evacuate as many as they can, but Malice teleports them back to Moongrave.

However, they decide to go back to fight the Titan once more. Tross helps them drive off the Titan, but overextends himself and is reduced to a formless Dream Madra in the process. And they aren't sure if he will recover.

And the very last line of the book is, I forget the character's name, but him and Lyndon talk. And he asks Lyndon, do you want to know how to kill a Dread God? And boom.

Also bloopers. Well, I want to prime this, so help me remember. I want to talk about one blooper in particular that made these bloopers my favorite.

I already mentioned last time that this book is my favorite so far. The bloopers are my favorite so far. And it's for one particular blooper.

I want to just side quest on it for 30 seconds later.

[Jonathan]
I'll do it.

[Slava]
All right, so I'll read it and you'll instantly know why it's my favorite blooper of the whole series thus far. Ethan and Lyndon stood over the grimy pit. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Looking down into the hole where Heaven's Glory building had collapsed. If you already know what's down there, I would appreciate it if you would tell me, Lyndon said. Ethan grimanced.

Lots of grimy blankets, some destroyed tools and a shallow sewer of human waste. He knelt and brushed a hand over the indentation in the rubble. A halfling lay here.

he moved to another dent next to the first and another it's a halfling Linden asked hush I'm dodging the copyright anything closed his eyes tracing the trail they crawled their hands were bound I'm certain he made this up their bonds were cut Linden decided to ignore Oh, a throwback to Lord of the Rings.

[Jonathan]
Blessed. That's something I'm surprised nobody else has ever done is bloopers honestly

[Slava]
you've said this every book and I agree with you every time every time it's amazing it's it's a it's a good shtick I love the bit the thing is you can't do

[Jonathan]
it with every book you couldn't do it with Stormlight you couldn't do it with it you couldn't do it like it's got to be a book that doesn't take itself too seriously yeah exactly otherwise it ruins the book for folks but this is like fun action-adventure fast-paced and so it works exactly if it ended with

[Slava]
Pennywise and the group of losers stand over a grimy pit looking down in the hole haha okay yeah not so much not so much though yeah so

[Jonathan]
Sacred Valley we've learned that the suppression field is bringing them back from their currently achieved power levels to all the way back down to Jade although it's like Jade plus because they as we've read in the book they have this like they still get to be golds basically right but and this is something that I mentioned last time like the power levels are worlds apart oh yeah and so it's like fighting someone who's a Jade when you're so crazy high level is just it's astronomical but the same thing applies like as these power levels progress there's a game that I used to play called lineage the blood pledge it was like 1997 it was an MMORPG based out of Korea shout out if you guys played it it was very hard it was it was all grind there's four quests one at level 15 one at level 30 one at level 45 and one at 52 that's it everything else was hard grind and level one let's just say it was like 10 experience points level two was level ones experience plus the new level so like 50 experience points where it's 40 for level 210 for level one level three was a hundred plus the previous sets so like every level became all of the previous levels requirements plus the new level and so getting to 52 was really difficult but this is how I see this grind that like they've gone through where it's like they ground and ground to ground I got to the top but then they have to make it declined back down to this Jade level and it's like having done all this work and then you don't even get to enjoy the the fruits of your labor while you're on this specific quest or mission yeah I've never played that game it's a it's a very specific game that a lot of people have not played it's a 2d yeah so I wouldn't surprise me if none of our

[Slava]
audience have has played it yeah it was rare yeah I it's weird when I was a kid I liked games like that as little as I got to play them but I like games of that what I spent my time playing more than anything was like the the computer games because we had a computer live at school to make sure us kids didn't get in trouble or do drugs so that's where I got into gaming and it was all the old computer games yeah one of our schools I think this was in ninth grade now we had doom that allowed us to play doom because it was a pretty progressive school so there was like now it's gonna cause kids to go hurt others nobody thought that way they're just like it's a game and kids get to shoot demons fine so that yeah that was my foray into gaming but tabletops I enjoyed them I play them a few times in my life but sadly never had like a posse that I could play with continuously or regularly so yeah I feel that I had a

[Jonathan]
lot of single-player time even through high school where it people people had other things to do but that was like what I was making my thing yeah and so I spent hours I mean Lenny is a blood pledge I easily spent 40 hours a week doing and then when I joined a different MMORPG rift I became there was clans and we were a progression guild and I was like one of the leaders of my class and I spent 80 hours a week playing that like but you have time yeah you have time it's fun and there's like a community aspect and like a unified goal aspect but they just you don't have that luxury in today's fast-paced Oh responsibility ridden society because if I had time and I had a billion dollars I you know I would probably play a few more video games because I had

[Slava]
yeah but I don't know yeah would you say a couple episodes ago that we have lives wives and dogs and plus responsibilities yeah they're there they are preventing

[Jonathan]
us from playing games my dog is borrowed it's my mother-in-law's dog slash my wife's dog but does she live with you she no but she comes over pretty regularly because my mother-in-law works and so you know dog needs to get let out but she's like a Yorkie poo so okay she's small she's small dog your dogs

[Slava]
would eat my dog well only one of them but the boy is very calm and stoic the psychopath who happens to be running our legal department is a little less

[Jonathan]
department I like it yeah but let's get back to the suppression yeah so the

[Slava]
nature of the field is a security measure for some reason this place needs

[Jonathan]
it right it's a security measure it's also what like was used and I don't know if malice created this or if it existed before her I can't remember or if we even learn it it was created to help them fight the dread gods like hey if we can make them if we can lure them into this place but then you've got the people who live there who are just forever stunted right yeah and people who enter

[Slava]
it afterwards who weren't born there are also stunted yep and Gary gets affected because of her merging with the blood soul thing blood Phoenix blood Phoenix

[Jonathan]
thank you because the blood Phoenix is a dread god but because Aaron doesn't have all the power that the blood Phoenix does she gets all of the negative effects but none of the positive ones well there is no positive so just the negative yeah exactly cuz she's like half she's like a half-formed being basically yeah then and then the monarchs have to intervene to help her mm-hmm exactly so is it is it just for the monarchs to morally just to have a suppression field that people still live in stunted and like removed from society living in the it's like

[Slava]
the Ozarks or something well that's a interesting question it's a good question the answer is very murky and gray like absolutely like no we're talking in absolutes objectively speaking no they should probably care for the people and focus on the dread God there's a pressure field should somehow focus on dread God essence or something but in this world might is right and we'll talk about this in the next episode of the guys the great man theory where you do what you got to do it's utilitarian you got it you have to stop the dread gods so what if some backwood Ozark like folks suffer because of it they're not dead they're just suppressed well and it's the best for the world well some of them are dead because of other things adjacent to

[Jonathan]
drag gods and they're like yeah don't blame it on the dread gods it's just

[Slava]
dread God adjacent yeah well drag God by himself or herself is responsible for their actions in some way in a lot of ways I suppose but to answer your question more directly it's not moral not not from our Western perspective because they are hurting people and if they're these monarchs and they have access to this power and knowledge I'm sure there's a way just to attack the dread God or create some sort of field that keeps a drag got away unless the people live but again we're not living in 2025 Western America or Europe we're

[Jonathan]
living in cradle it's a way to fight just the dread God maybe there's not I think so then cost to it however my question really and maybe I didn't articulate this well is is it just for monarchs to allow people to live in the backwoods still in clearly a negative environment a an oppressive environment that they built so those people will forever be stunted and never have the opportunity they just won't have the opportunities because they're living in to call it Chernobyl right of yeah say we're sick rallies that you're noble of of cradle mm-hmm the Black Flame Empire and like malice has the resources to remove the people or invite them to leave and then like give them the choice but she doesn't yeah and like so is it morally just on her part to like well they don't want to leave I haven't even asked them but you know whatever or is it her responsibility as leader to have at least made an offer they said no giving them the opportunity because it was meant to be for the dread gods as

[Slava]
opposed to the humans I think it's morally right as a leader for her to give them the opportunity and to my point work out a way and if it's not possible to focus this on only the dread gods then you come to the people and you say hey here's the thing you can stay here but you'll be stunted to your growth will be stunted you can't right you can't ascend more than Jade if that's your life and you beholden to your way of life to your traditions to this world to this place in the world god bless you those who are not come with

[Jonathan]
me and the story god bless us everyone but only malice yes right what was my

[Slava]
line yeah what was my line let us all live something let us live let us live

[Jonathan]
yeah there it is you know you know yes if you haven't checked out Christmas Carol you should let us live as timing tiny tiny Tim says let us live it's tiny 10 tiny 10 Tim Tim deeply yeah well I guess I guess this gets into if you if you go meta more on this and like philosophically speaking world belief world world perspective belief what is it called what do you say world view worldview yeah did you give me some vodka this morning maybe probably so

[Slava]
worldview to recap is your epistemology your metaphysics and your ethics so metaphysics is your view of reality what we know is real epistemology knowledge how do we know what we know how do we know more can we truly know what we know and then ethics born out of those two is how you act mm-hmm and so the idea of

[Jonathan]
like well is it utilitarian where they need something to deal with these very powerful creatures or is it you know optimism which I don't remember the actual philosophical phrasing for that at the moment by the ontology maybe because I thought that the ontology was changing it from the inside out I want to say optimism whatever the philosophy of optimism is where it's like doing the best that you can that for all people man I am drawing a blank on these words

[Slava]
as more deontology is an ethical theory that judges actions based on adherence to rules duties or obligations rather than the consequences of the action so

[Jonathan]
and then you said more that would fall more into the utilitarian view I think if I was to give it a spectrum and lean yeah but it's not optimism there's like deontology I've talked about this with Chris who's gonna be on on crime punishment with us deontology versus something else but the like hey we have to help everyone it's not it's not utilitarian it's um oh it's on the tip of my tongue as something say the words lava say the words I don't know what you're talking about dude can you guys leave it in the comments for me can you correct me can you can you tell me what word I'm trying to say here my god this is gonna bother me altruism altruism hey that's the show thanks for joining us joining us next week we're learn more words where it's like adult Sesame Street

[Slava]
this episode was brought to you by the letter a for altruism for altruism yes

[Jonathan]
yes that's the word that I was trying to say altruism so altruism is kind of how society runs today where it's like well we should help everyone and it's like yeah that's a great thought but it's more idealistic than it is practical and like where's the line between practical versus idealistic wait who draws that line and based on what that should always be the question and here enters

[Slava]
worldview your worldview will determine your ethics or altruism whether you draw

[Jonathan]
the line or who somebody else draws the line does Congress get to draw the line does Western society get to draw the line and then China is absolutely wrong China gets to draw the line and the Americas the the the wrong way devil the great white devil right no Russia gets to draw though who gets to draw the line and why and this is like I think very apt for the story itself because it's like well you've got these monarchs and you have people in power about what it's like okay are they objectively moral in their decisions yeah yes or no if yes why if no why I've taken us down a steep rabbit hole bring us bring me bring me back to the suppression fields lava don't let me out

[Slava]
put me back in the cage the monarchs do intervene for their own like in that with Aaron the that's evident right within a set of boundaries right like

[Jonathan]
yeah technically malice owns Sacred Valley she doesn't intervene there no until she has to right and mercy until it's best for her right mercy's like urine's like well I brought a drug out and mercy's like well don't get too happy about that because she only does stuff that's good for the family it gets

[Slava]
muddy man like I'm not saying it's clear yeah no and I'm not saying yeah that's me making a statement I'm not not saying you are why are you coming at me I somebody Adam in the comments please so like Lyndon and Yarin their decision to come back to the valley is altruistic because for your Lyndon it's his people for Yarin it's because it's her boyfriend's people right her love interest people now she has like I called it I think she has more than just a sisterly affection for him so that that's that zeal

[Jonathan]
there's a shift into it he got hoaxed into it by a thing because a thing's like my my wouldn't it be great if someone could heal Madra lines yeah so

[Slava]
you kind of gets pulled into altruistic I'm talking about you yeah and then dross is the ultimate altruistic character here he sacrifices himself I don't think he knew he was gonna sacrifice himself but he says don't keep going sir keep going he says please don't leave me don't abandon me and then he goes does this thing it's not clear from the book that he knows something bad might happen to him he's pretty optimistic right and happy-go-lucky kind of guy Ross yeah and he goes and does this thing and destroys himself partly right dark surreal surreal there's a sense of duty so that could be deontology Oh utilitarianism comes back to the Monarchs and specifically malice thank you yeah because she has to have this thing over the valley because the

[Jonathan]
drag gods that's it she speaks to Yarin when they when goes to visit her yeah in a utilitarian like well we lost some cities because I was distracted by the last red god blah blah blah blah and it's like and then she's also being utilitarian and like taking out the dragons and urine's like oh that doesn't make me feel good and malice is like do you need to know what they did here's what they did and she describes this horrible thing and then you're it's like okay well just do that same thing to them that I guess yeah

[Slava]
the mighty part comes in where even though Linden is altruistic and going to save his people he ultimately uses utilitarian tactics to get them out and

[Jonathan]
so does mercy you have to well yeah in this specific group of people specific

[Slava]
world specific group of people goes back to some of our text and we tried to do we did he did he did a little too much honestly what could be argued either way I like the tension and I like how it was drawn out I mentioned that last time I like that it took a little longer I I'm seeing myself being less and less

[Jonathan]
annoyed with Linden and so the fact he was gonna confront himself yes yeah so

[Slava]
I I like that he showed more restraint that he needed for the book for the book it works well and again to go back to our pseudo argument or whatever it was

[Jonathan]
about him you know low-key stooping down to literally someone else's level

[Slava]
sure whatever but low-key low-keying like the Hulk did to Loki say that five times fast to dodgy it was great but then when the world and rules and his own worldview allows for it allows maybe not the most most appropriate word but he does show restraint he doesn't just start banging people against walls in the ground go all right you're coming with me knock you out knock you out knock you out kill you and we're going but then he does use his force his will authority how the book right writes it so there is that's the greatness of it because he's altruistic but ultimately uses utilitarian tactics to get what he needs done because of his altruism yeah what do you what do you guys think did

[Jonathan]
Linden act appropriately did he act justly was him using utilitarian tactics when he is coming from an altruistic perspective the way to do things should he stayed in his altruism what what do you guys think in the comments or do you think that malice should have just burned the whole place to the ground and

[Slava]
Linda died before book one this just came to me that cradle by itself I think is a altruistic world it runs an altruistic principles right and Linden

[Jonathan]
do you mean altruistic no utilitarian utilitarian wait a second

[Slava]
utilitarian you can't mean that no no I didn't mean that but Linden is an altruistic guy within this utilitarian world yeah and he's forced to use the rules of the world I've here to the rules of the world all the things of the world to survive even to advance he stabbed some guy in the back he beats dodgy you know half to death he does all these things and then in what was it a ghost water where he comes out swinging in the prologue insert kills a bunch of dudes so even Linden is a nice guy maybe it wasn't ghost water but there's one book where it just starts out and he kills a guy or he starts kicking somebody's ass I forget anyway he maybe not kill but he starts kicking ass so even Linden as a good guy as good guy Linden altruistic altruistic sage that he is he resorts to some you know ass kickery I'm going to turn make up a term and utilitarianism to get stuff done so take that for what you will nice guy

[Jonathan]
Linden void sage altruistic boy wonder yeah but listen like you take people in

[Slava]
war in a real war or a real conflict there's nice people altruistic people peaceful people but when war comes to their door they are more scary than the guy that's torturing people skinning people going completely bonkers psychopath that guy is scary himself because he's a force that is it's difficult to mitigate but when met with a guy who is forced to defend his family himself or you know ascend grow in order to be able to protect his clan that guy is a lot more scarier and he might say this one and apologies every five minutes like a little twerp push to the limit that guy is a little scarier he in

[Jonathan]
a good way he learns that he is not being listened to and so he's going to go yeah okay then I'm gonna make you listen yeah exactly politely yep within

[Slava]
within his polite reason yeah yeah so I liked it I like that a lot like the the the whole scene I know I've said this already a hundred times but this was a very very good read for me I enjoyed this book immensely what did you not like

[Jonathan]
we haven't talked about that in a minute like I don't know that's a I have

[Slava]
to think about it because I was so engrossed in the story yeah I enjoyed the things I already hashed out numerous times I can't say that there was something that stood out to me as oh gosh well let me let me let me let me

[Jonathan]
clarify this question a little bit more you can not like so like I didn't like how long it took Linden to like man up basically but that but that doesn't mean that it's a bad story right like not in a not in the type of like what did you not like with my response to China Mabel and city in the city okay it doesn't have to be I hated this book right it's just like I didn't love this part or I didn't love how long this took or I didn't love like the nuance part of it right like because and I think we talked about this a little bit with kata bases where it's like concept love the concept execution yeah and so it's like well what did you not like it could be a single scene it can be a character I it made me or you know even put a different way yeah you uncomfortable or what made you take pause we're like well I don't know about that the only thing that's

[Slava]
coming to mind is Yarin's altruism how quickly she got there and I had to kind of understand now that she likes likes Linden and blah blah blah they're a couple or something but I wished that we would see Yarin lose her shit a little bit more and then Yarin's like hey hey hey hey remember what we're here for please don't kill all my people yeah but I got you sorry I'm coffee or too much vodka yeah I wish Yarin would lose her shit and I thought she lost her appropriately as will intended the story to unfold because she still kicks some ass but goes alright because of Linden and because these guys are weak I won't do anything but I wish she would like obliterate it you know a dozen of them and then go oh wait a little much sorry Linden or Linden in the midst of her about to destroy a dozen of them goes hey buddy girlfriend pal boo please don't do that we're here for another reason and it doesn't have to be a conflict where it separates them or they're at odds with each other but I wish I would see Yarin go a little crazy and then have to real yeah yeah but again I'm only saying that because you forced me to think about it and as I'm trying to remember that's what I'm here for you did as I'm trying to think through the book upon you prompting the question I was like oh yeah when I was reading it I did go it's kind of weird not a character that Yarin just kind of goes along with the whole let's not kill people you know we got that point I

[Jonathan]
would have liked to have seen attention for specifically like her master we get a little bit of it right we get a little bit where it's like these people and we she makes snide remarks or whatever but it would have been interesting if like well she didn't have the power level to do this I guess what I'm gonna say it doesn't make sense but when she was dealing with Heaven's Glory glory school she would have had like her sword art like constantly at their neck just waiting for them to do something and they're like just do a slight line and they start bleeding right like something to go like I'm not tolerating this or to your point maybe I'm actually just agreeing with you like the the tension of hey she is still not okay with them but she's trying to be respectful of Linden and what he's trying to do yeah so it's in this book

[Slava]
and I mentioned this last episode it's in this book where Yarin realizes why her master died because of the suppression field so there's that thing that she's wrestling with it's a grim realization oh this is why he died so maybe that helped her restrain some of her anger but it's possible I also think

[Jonathan]
and I'm realizing this now that Will did something really subtle Yarin is actually a lot more powerful than Linden at the moment just because she became a herald Archlord overlord Archlord or lady or whatever over lady wait under Lord over lady yeah something like that where she like jumped the power levels and he handicaps her through in-world use but we didn't notice it because we're like oh that just makes sense yeah she's part Dread God now and she's in this field and this feels but for Dread God's like oh okay and to us it feels like the puzzle piece is there but then she has to go on a side quest herself to like get restored although she doesn't understand that at the time but he removes her from the fight completely yeah which yeah which is fun like doing it in a way that feels organic right and it wasn't an organic like yeah this

[Slava]
is so far my favorite book now that the others are not organic enough for me but it seemed that this one was more just shows the development right of the author and his writing ability you know no arguments here absolutely so I want to jump to the last scene and you tell me if this is too soon in our episode but Linden is talking to Elder Whisper and they discover or Linden discovers this mummified hand that belongs to the father of the Dread Gods and then Elder Whisper goes do you want to know how to kill a Dread God Linden and boom book ends tune in next week to find out how to kill a Dread God I guess so is that enough time in your mind or enough information that we spend with or would you want more I am putting on my Jonathan hat and I felt like the whole hand thing and the fact that subject one or whatever it is was the father of the Dread Gods that could have been teased out a little more in order to have it even a greater cliffhanger are you enjoying today's side quest make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode we are available on YouTube and all major platforms so you can listen to us anywhere now back to the show it

[Jonathan]
absolutely could have been teased out more and I and I'd say that this is one of Will's weak points is he moves so fast that sometimes he doesn't go through the layering that someone like a Sanderson does or other sure yeah he's just like oh also here's this thing okay until next time right yeah that's how it felt

[Slava]
to me so maybe this is the one I truly didn't like to answer your question but yeah I felt Linden finding whisper finding their earliest vault or whatever there's this hand the labyrinth the labyrinth is it's described you know briefly and then you know they talk elder and and elder whisper and Linden and then hey Linden do you want to know how to kill a Dread God that's great leave it on that line I'm freaking a good ending but father of the Dread Gods what does that mean Linden could have asked what do you mean father how do they sire the Dread God blah blah blah or whatever right and we'll unpack that as

[Jonathan]
the the final three books conclude the Dread Gods are the big bad evil guy for the series in the monarchs to a little bit and we'll get some conclusions as we move forward but I do think that there could have been I guess nuanced buildup

[Slava]
throughout the yeah a little bit more buildup that's a really good word for it

[Jonathan]
I like that but I'm not sure that will actually was so that if I was reading his blog site I started this series I think when he was on I think he'd released winter steel and he was like hey I think I'm gonna make this a 12 book series cuz I just wanted to end and he was like talking about this idea of like I'm kind of oh he didn't say this explicitly but I'm over the story I want to write something else which is fair I mean he's the author he gets to do what he wants however and you've heard me say this before specifically with this IP is like if the people want it then you should sell it to him yeah that's capitalism it doesn't mean that you shouldn't also do something else but everyone writes at their own pace not everyone's drafting the way that Sanderson does or like doing as thorough processes like Rothbus and so he releases less books it's like you create at your own cadence based on the level of depth or professionalism or whatever you want to call it attention to detail that you want to and I I can't remember a time where I heard him talk about oh well I planned out 12 books and I knew this is how I wanted it to end I think it was just kind of writing as he went long answer long which is okay we've all enjoyed it but I think that you have more opportunity for layering not think you have more opportunity for layering if you know where it's gonna end even though you're gonna change it so like before you write put pen to book one if you know where it's gonna end in book 12 you can create the river of the story the loom of the story and determine oh we're gonna hit a roadblock here we're gonna kill a character there we're gonna do this we're gonna do that and then then you're revising you're like oh I actually want to drop a little just a very subtle nothing here that will flourish in book 12 yeah Nick

[Slava]
mentioned this in some way in our interview with him where he's like he's building this world he has everything planned out for all seven books or at least the key moments and then other stuff that's the way I took it yeah other stuff as you go you go with your characters you write what you think they would react to you bring in incidents or events that you never thought about but because you're pounding this out and you have this goal in book four five six seven like oh this would work best to get the character to that event to that position to that whatever right so yeah and then Jonathan ruins everything by

[Jonathan]
coming with a very different perspective not that I do this with every book and not that I'm saying that I'm the best at this yeah because I've I've just spent time on reddit and people are like well why don't blah blah blah and to give you an example of like what I'm talking about in this exact moment is it's like when people say well why didn't the fellowship take the Eagles to Mordor it's like that where you're like you try and break the story right which should

[Slava]
happen during the beta reads hopefully but that's what we do the Millennials and I'm an elder millennial as this can testify to but that's what Millennials do we love breaking stories yeah like all the content I consume about books movies theories games especially games I see a lot of younger millennial mmm you know middle millennial whatever that means and even some of the older Gen Z's they like theories on video games and stories on lore and at least the people I consume their content it's all about breaking breaking the story breaking the with fun theories and hot takes and all that I love it so well I don't know I

[Jonathan]
guess I would put hot takes and theories in a different realm sure but they do both that makes me question like what is the essence of breaking a story because because because that to me is what I'm doing where I'm like well you know it's like when someone I think JT brought this up in one of the previous things where it's like this type of writing with Wu Xia and Zanzia it's like well in book three you had this big powerful item that just like gets forgotten on purpose but like then you mentioned a new big item and so like you purposely just kind of let this stuff fade and so then it's to me breaking the story is like well in book three the big power item was this and because of how it works it really should affect blah blah blah and so you like use in-world mechanics to then break said story that's what I'm thinking about when I say

[Slava]
break story okay it's a little different than what I'm talking about okay that happens and what I'm talking about but it doesn't happen as purposefully as with you and that's not a dig sure yeah they're just talking about okay character X is doing a B C or D but what if what if there was a fourth choice or using in-world rules and in-world lore and all the information that they have thus part of the story they they have a theory that says well this means that that link is always been the the villain of the story of the game and then it's just an example and then they go into reasons why link is actually the villain or why Mario is not as altruistic in saving the princes as we all all that kind of stuff yes like what about the Goomba's family who who now doesn't have a father because Mario killed you know half the village stuff like that so it breaks a story but it's really just for fun to explore these

[Jonathan]
darker sides story extrapolation where you you play out the scenario of like hey you just killed another your 3,000th Goomba and like what about the Goomba's cousins that to me is extrapolating the story narrative to a breaking point which is where I think the line is here it's like you're taking the story and going well because you killed 3,000 Goombas X Y & Z therefore Mario is actually a bad person versus like hey the story of Mario is rescuing the princess from Bowser and like why doesn't he just use the cape from Super Mario 3 to like swoop in grab her and not have to fight him at all I think in

[Slava]
my mind the distinction there is not as large as your mind but yeah I yeah I'm willing to admit that there's a distinction I'm just saying it gets muddy at least for the content I consume they do all of that in one episode

[Jonathan]
sometimes yeah it's it's muddy is a great way to say so let me let's ask the audience like do you guys a do this are you a millennial of some kind our elder mid or young young yeah young millennia or older Gen Z er like do you do this do you think there's a line right like some of these questions like tell us

[Slava]
what do you think yeah I'd love to know and if you know of any content creators that you consume on this drop them in the comments I will I will watch them

[Jonathan]
tell them they should be on the show tag them in the comments to be on the show

[Slava]
let's get to the bottom of this because that could be a side question itself where we talk about a world talk about a story and break it provide theories because we kind of go through the constructing yes let's deconstruct some stories let's deconstruct Super Mario together yeah we go through these books and we explore what we like what we don't like but mainly we talk about the plot points and try to extrapolate some real-world examples and go on philosophical little side quests but if we were to sit down and totally break a story and say what if cloth it was the true villain something silly like that you know or why you know Kaladin is X or whatever shall I really and are

[Jonathan]
justified in their actions towards cloth in his family yes exactly crap like that I love a segment that we do at the end of some of these things where we like yeah we could put them into a bowl and we pull them out it's like okay you have three minutes to justify why the Chandrian actually deserve to be the hero of this story yep so drop some of these silly stuff that we should have

[Slava]
to argue over yes comments yeah definitely give us ideas to fight Jonathan and I love debating and even when we get spicy with each other it's out of brotherly love it's just I like debating if it's done well and if I know that the person has my best interest in mind no matter how we are opposed in real life or in you know in this context where we're just two guys talking about books I love a good debate as long as it's you know as long as it's interesting I get bored easily sometimes well not sometimes people

[Jonathan]
about how you slashed all four of my tires that one no I'm never gonna tell anybody that I'm still waiting for him to pay me back on my four tires but it's

[Slava]
cool it's fine but I love debates as long as they're not boring and what I mean by that is there are some people are so inarticulate and uninteresting in their positions and I'm like I don't know how to respond to you like you set something I know there is a logical response whether I'm right or wrong is irrelevant I know I have a response it's in my head but to put the sentence together and to use my tongue to say it I'm like I'm just too bored like this is I'm done with you so when it's a whether we're arguing silly crap about dodgy getting beat half to death or we're talking about something serious which you're wrong about whatever see I don't even want to respond to that are you

[Jonathan]
above it I am above it you're above stooping to my level yes yes point

[Slava]
proven because this is not cradle if I need it if this was cradle and I needed to come over there and twist your ear or kick you down some stairs I would do it

[Jonathan]
I wish you would I wish you would so next up we got dread gods as a catalyst we talked about briefly last episode and then also like Garen's vulnerability which we yeah that's not a little bit so like pick pick pick your own adventure pick your own side quest P Y O S Q posk posk yeah well I have notes in my trusty

[Slava]
little journal here so I didn't have time to put them into the our Google Doc I said that last time I still couldn't find time to put them on a Google Doc but the dread God is a catalyst like I I want to talk about that I find that interesting so we have this wandering Titan and it's for me it serves as the catalyst in world for the plot for the unity for you know difficulty it presents a difficulty right it drives the characters to some desperate actions it forces them to confront themselves and confront their past their families for Linden in some ways for Yeren with her master from mercy with her mother and it forces them to confront these difficulties their values the heroism acts of heroism their morality or even mortality not even but also mortality and they are at the same level they're all kind of you know different power levels but now they're in Sacred Valley and because they're somewhat unified in their powers or you know equals in their power to some degree now they're forced to confront this big bad demon world eating thing and that I think is one of my favorite parts of the book that maybe that's why I love it so much besides the tight writing and all the things I mentioned first episode there's this thing which is what good books are made of that forces the characters to do something we we we get a revelation of what they need what they want all the stuff you always harp on which is I'm gonna green with you about it and here we have the big back thing and it's literally a big bad thing and it forces them to not only do internal like rehashings there's they get revelations because of it and it molds them as a better team I think so I love that because the drag god is not just a guy that's a little bit more powerful that they have to fight in an arena absolutely it's cosmic and that the whole thing is cosmic because they have the Abaddon you have the Mad King you have the the Dread God so now the conflict is more cosmic because you have what's in front of your face you have the people that are above you you have the people that are above them and then you have this guy with a scythe so there's a lot of stuff happening all at once which I thought was fascinating it was

[Jonathan]
wonderfully done so I actually have trouble picturing how big a drug God is hmm so it talks about eating mountains and so like okay you've got well how

[Slava]
many bites but I'm gonna interrupt you for just for one second like to help you to help you picture not I'm not busting your balls like how many bites does it take him to the center of a mountain yeah where's our owl yeah you know yeah so if it takes him one bite that I can't even picture him if it takes him 30 bites

[Jonathan]
well okay I can kind of picture him I think it is multiple bites and so like it has to be the size of a mountain generally speaking but also I think it's larger I think it's like attack on Titan large exactly yeah yeah I'm it's like

[Slava]
attack on Titan on a little bit of steroids and he probably did a misled

[Jonathan]
day because he's going for it yeah and also like the Wandering Titans a turtle

[Slava]
right I've missed that if that's the case I shall hmm is it like a carapace

[Jonathan]
shell or like a shell shell like a turtle I don't know use your use your magic research powers while I talk about the dread gods to do it so I love that dread gods is like this big bad thing you're going to be pleasantly surprised with their relation to other powerful beings in the would you say cosmic the cosmos yeah the cradles most crazy cradle cosmos right yeah whether it's the Monarchs or the Abaddon or whatever like the dread gods have some sort of relation which is that story that is like ends at this it's the the story starts at the end of this book right in terms of like we're gonna learn more about it where Elder Whisperer is saying hey do you want to learn how to kill a dread god and then the question is like oh yeah but we already have the juxtaposition from when you're in went to go see the Monarchs to say hey actually we can't give you a gift that would let one of us die so the dread gods are more powerful than a monarch in and of itself and the Monarchs together it sounds like can't kill a dread god either so like whether it's you know a kryptonite that they're missing or whether it's just like even combined they can't kill this thing like whatever the the metric is it is impossible for Monarchs to kill a dread god from our current understanding that being said it's like okay well how do you have such a powerful being that you know it hasn't talked about this in book but in my mind it's like well every 80 years you know the dread god wakes up and he rampages then he goes to sleep right like whatever that thing is and we've gotten snippets of like the dread gods are looking for something all of them and now we're in the labyrinth and there's like subject one and it's like okay maybe they're looking for subject one question mark yeah and even if they were subject one is in a labyrinth that a human can fit into so like how does that make sense do they shrink I don't know I

[Slava]
do know but you know well here's some stuff I found so the wandering Titan is depicted as a colossal physical force that blends humanoid and beastlike traits the scale is truly massive so during the final battle Orthos grows until he's a size of a tall building yet even at that size the turtle is only half the height of the Titan it possesses a mix of limbs that allows it to fight like a brawler but also strike like a beast it has fists which it uses to punch a foot mass enough to crush the air and flat however it also possesses a powerful tail to swipe enemies it has a mouth capable of shooting streams of earth Madra eating mountains and a neck a neck broad enough for a Linden to land on so its approach to its at the atmosphere around it the environment around it it's approach signals to change an environment when it arrives the sky over a sacred valley turns gold so it probably has Madra and aura coming off of it and it's this big thing that's a mixture of beast and man so maybe the shell is a carapace that you were referring to because I don't it didn't

[Jonathan]
mention the shell on there no not in what I pulled up maybe I'm and I pulled

[Slava]
up some maybe I pulled up some fan art well we'll put on the screen it's from reddit will notate the artist but I found some oh well it's mid journey so it's a guy on subreddit iteration 110 cradle and I guess they fed in some description and there's a drag god we'll put that on screen and then there is another one another one that looks like a dragon and that's it that's it there's

[Jonathan]
multiple dread gods there's the silent king there is the wandering Titan there is the bleeding Phoenix and there is what's the one that killed the old sect the lightning bird thing it's like Quetzalcoatl basically yeah well I found

[Slava]
another fan art and this is by OBS ID 13 also subreddit iteration 110 cradle and they have what looks like King Kong with a carapace that looks like a turtle shell on the back and they have it connected to the Statue of Liberty and he is taller than the Statue of Liberty so we'll put that on the screen too put that on the screen too so these two artists one used AI one used I guess his hands both good I'm not making a claim about anything so we'll put both of the fan fiction up on screen so you guys decide which one is closer to the real one let us know in the comments so vulnerability you want to talk about Aaron's vulnerability speaking of dread gods speaking of drag gods nice segue so

[Jonathan]
let's talk about a girl Aaron Aaron has integrated and become one with her bloodshadow which her bloodshadow is made up from the madra blood madra of the bleeding Phoenix and so she is one if you will of the bleeding Phoenix which is why the sage of red faith is so excited that she achieved this because he's this is something that he wanted to do but his bloodshadow became too powerful basically and separated from him and so it would be interesting to me to get the contrast of the sage of red faith in the suppression field or his counterpart his bloodshadow which sage of red faith and maybe it's the Herald I'll put it on screen we didn't realize that Yarin in making this decision had the width and breadth of drawbacks that it did yeah when she did it to win uncrowned tournament unforeseen consequences yes that's a good way to put it but that's

[Slava]
like with anything in life you and I know this is gonna sound trivial but let's say you make enough money to buy a luxury car and then you realize the upkeep on it is a lot more than if you just bought a fancy Honda or a higher end Honda if you wanted something fancy I guess analogies always break down but the unforeseen consequences of that and if you have enough money that consequences is trivial in and of itself but you do something to get you know ahead in this world there has to be something that is that's not going to be all you know sunshine and roses there has to be some sort of drawback otherwise

[Jonathan]
the story gets bland yeah it's true yeah it's true but was that a surprise when

[Slava]
that happened to Aaron to you or surprise like surprise like oh my gosh well what is this going on no something was that unexpected yes it was well there was no awe there was no shock but it was unexpected I'll say that yeah so my

[Jonathan]
old surprise I'll surprise yeah maybe maybe unexpected is mild surprise shock

[Slava]
is massive surprise yes it was not massive it was not a dry guts of level

[Jonathan]
surprise okay good good just checking yeah because there's a lot more surprises where that came from but who do tell well I told you last time that there's

[Slava]
gonna be a little romance a little fling yes you did between hold on between Lyndon and somebody else or yeah so dodge it no the sister the guy who cut off his arms his sister and somebody right uh-huh okay way she Kelsa and I long right yes okay I'm looking forward to that yeah I'm

[Jonathan]
looking forward do you think that that ends up curbing jai longs distrust and

[Slava]
malice maybe softening it a little bit towards Lyndon maybe soften it a little bit or maybe not just like you know now I have this family member who is a piece of crap and how to deal with it because I like this girl I just don't know yeah

[Jonathan]
you think mercy finds anybody in the story I hope so mercy the person is a nice girl she deserves love she does deserve love because her mother never Oh man so you had texted me and I don't really understand what you texted me about the questions of agency did you have notes on that in some way oh yeah

[Slava]
like it was just a it was just a random cyclist I wanted to go on if it's appropriate so they used their will and authority this this group of our friends that we followed yep to forcefully evacuate the Sacred Valley douches as I've named him yeah so again just to play devil's advocate is that moral and right like because they have not given them the agency we talked about mercy saying hey those who want to go let's go those who want to stay you know you made your bed sleep in it yeah here they're like we're here to save you because we love you and I have some sentimentality right right right but you know what I'm

[Jonathan]
gonna save you because I'm being silly sure good guy Lyndon I'm being freaking

[Slava]
silly but the point is we're here drugs are drug gods are coming we want to save you no no no don't save us screw you bastard like nope we're saving you and then they forcefully save somebody to the question about morality and what's right I want to throw that back in your face what do you think of that okay well that's not what I meant but well you can take it any way you want throw

[Jonathan]
it back in here all right so the question this this question of agency and and and let me try and specify it to make sure that I and the audience are following correctly or give you the chance to refine your question is it morally right that Linden and crew come in and forcefully remove people who would be happier dying in their hometown yep instead of like is the forced will on another is the forced agency on another for their own good morally right is that the question yeah I would qualify it out of world in a world sure

[Slava]
give me both out of world and in world but I'm gonna qualify yours not for their own good to save them because for their own good could be anything like they're not gonna be better people if they're saved yes they're dead if they stay they're not going to improve as people if they're removed they're just not dead so to save a life to be very specific to save a life of of these people what whatever they are whoever they are so it's the trolley car problem

[Jonathan]
is it better to pull the pull the pull the lever and kill one person than save three lives or is it better to let the trolley run over three lives and save

[Slava]
the one person no it's if we're gonna apply the trolley car analogy is you get a chance to save all four and two of them are like nope not going anywhere I like trains because that's the equivalent of their freaking you know

[Jonathan]
yeah yeah emotional IQ yeah yeah I'd say in world absolutely make sense totally fine if someone wants to use their absolute power to do to not do good you want to use their absolute power to flex on saving lives so be it so be it yeah aloud meta wise in today's world I want to say yes however the culture that we have created and I say we including me even though I disagree with it because the culture is the culmination of everyone's actions so we're all responsible whether you like it or not it's not my culture if you're here it is your culture so suck it up buttercup it sucks to suck for both of us yeah I think that's just the nature of goodness is you have to you have to make the difficult decision even in the midst of being against the masses even against the agency and will of others which then I mean you could extrapolate this and be like well then is it okay to you know that hypothetical question like well then should we go back and kill Hitler right like I mean you know maybe that'll get brought up next if this is like this is like extrapolation to the max right

[Slava]
let me tighten up this conversation so in a real world there's a tsunami coming

[Jonathan]
right everybody knows it's coming sure yeah giving a better analogy you go to

[Slava]
that coastal town and you say hey there's an analogy there's an analogy everybody runs for the hills there's a tsunami coming and you happen to know these people you grew up in this town so let's make it a little bit more aligned with the story you have to know these people they're like chubby Jonathan shut up nobody nobody wants to hear whatever you have to say because that's what people used to call you I'm not making fun of you audience I'm making fun of my buddy here yeah yeah yeah yeah and then you're like but what the hell I need to save you there's a tsunami coming and because you have real-world powers let's say you're some sort of government official and you tell your soldiers to tranquilize everybody shoot tranquilizer darts and we're gonna just put them in boats and or put them in cars and drive inland is that morally good to get

[Jonathan]
really in the weeds here yeah yeah what is that phrase the road to hell is paved with good intentions yes right so so I've certainly done things that I was like oh man I'm trying to help someone else that ended up biting me because humans are big meatbags of emotion of if you want to if you want to add me in the comments like let's just sit down for an hour and talk about your past because there are times where you've been a big meatbag of emotions look those of us who prefer to try to be reasonable or logic-driven you're still look I've got friends who you might think are like on the the the spectrum or like have Asperger's or whatever because of like how how logical they they act but I can tell you for a fact from the breadth and time that I've known them they're still absolutely fueled by their emotions even though they they themselves don't

[Slava]
recognize it oh yeah so man is an emotional animal just like he's a

[Jonathan]
political animal it's you can't escape it meatbags 101 it's a subcourse I'm

[Slava]
doing so I'll give you my half answer it should be like we said earlier where

[Jonathan]
malice has to give them the opportunity to be like morally just you need to give people the opportunity to say themselves if you can't if you can't don't won't if you don't that's on you if you do you tried if you try and they say no in Lyndon's case but you only had you you were limited on time the tsunami is coming in two hours you've got an hour before you have to flee yeah you definitely can't grab everybody who do you save wife and kids women and children you've aligned people up who's a good swimmer handout lifeboats hey on

[Slava]
doc a be sure to use this key sorry so here's my half answer but it's kind of a full answer to I'm just not going to go into detail because I don't want to do

[Jonathan]
derail and be labor welcome to side quest this is we could derailing is like

[Slava]
the new name of the side quest fair enough so you do what we said malice should do and you do what happens today like there's a warning that goes out to Floridians as an example as a hurricane coming we're evacuating the city people evacuate others stay the ones that stay some die some get stuck on a roof we still save those bastards so but we're not in cradle and I'll leave my answer

[Jonathan]
to that if you're malice you will let the tsunami come and then those who are on roofs you will use your bow and arrow to shoot from afar that that works too

[Slava]
like whatever oh my god um yeah why is he impaled in the proof I don't think tsunami got him to not must have been a spear in the wave must have been a sharp

[Jonathan]
object rolling through the tsunami why is modder coming out of the hole I don't know why is it black shadow mod we're coming must have been a black shadow spear there's just hanging out in the waves yeah new it was a black tsunami I

[Slava]
didn't mean it that way you don't have to make it into something I didn't say we're not that freaking spicy here goodness gracious okay I'm I'm off my

[Jonathan]
rocker at this point do you have any final thoughts before we wind down no

[Slava]
except that I'll reiterate and I want to know other people's opinions so if you guys are reading this with us or you read it all once twice ten times yeah bring on the is this your favorite book or which book is your favorite in the obviously pretty obviously okay do you like this book do you hate this book is it your favorite in the cradle series I want some uh some comments back and forth I want to hear what other people say now you know how I feel when I'm

[Jonathan]
like our guests are on well I do this to you sorry guests yeah where I'll be

[Slava]
like blah blah blah blah I think you have more to say crickets and then it's

[Jonathan]
like oh okay it's my turn do you guys ever deal with this where someone says something and you're like I'm just gonna let the silence hang not for any particular reason sometimes I have a reason just me huh cool what did you say now you sound like my brothers were you talking what middle child life goodness

[Slava]
all right folks it's been real we love you subscribe share ring bells and we'll

[Jonathan]
see you next week thanks for joining us be sure to hit that subscribe button so that you never miss a side quest yeah that's what I just said so two calls to action I need to mute him quicker next time I have a favor to ask you if you like what we're doing the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe in return we'll keep leveling up and we'll listen to your feedback and read authors that you suggest and of course we'll take side quests along the way thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time