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This Dental Specific Podcast is dedicated to the Dental "Entrepreneur" Michael Dinsio, Founder of Next Level Consultants, delivers #TRUTH when starting up a dental practice. From the very first step to getting the keys of a dental practice, Michael shares his raw & unscripted playbook with you. Not only does this podcast provide you with "What To Do" but more importantly "What Not To Do". With over over 15 years of experience & over 150 past clients, Michael delivers an educational and informative program in a real and genuine way. Start w/ Episode 01 - as we go through a STEP by STEP process.
Startup Unscripted. The questions you have with the truths you need to hear. And now your host, Michael Dinsio. All right, all right, guys, welcome back to another episode of Startup Unscripted. You guys know me, Michael Dinsio, co-founder of Next Level Consultants. And today we are discussing all things architecture. And with a startup, as you guys know, build outs, you need someone solid on your team to essentially help you with the design process. the permit process, hiring a contractor. And today we have a special guest in studio today, and I'm excited about interviewing him. So we've got Eric White, which is one of the principals at the famous and well-recognized Joe Architect. So Eric, welcome to the program, man. Yeah. Thanks, Michael. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Like this, this should be a fun episode because today in this present moment, construction and the whole process of building out a dental office is a very hot topic. I think it's always a hot topic, but it's extra hot because project expenses are feel totally out of control right now. And the banking scene has increased their levels of approvals, but apparently not enough. It's never enough. And I used to be a banker. And so today I really am looking forward to like the deep diving into the things we can do to try to combat this moment. But before we get kind of into the topics and stuff, Eric, why don't you give us just a little bit about you and Joe Architect and the firm and what you guys are all about? Yeah. Well, yeah, as you said, my name is Eric White. I'm one of the principals of Joe Architect. I've been with our studio going on uh, it's myself and, uh, one of the remaining founding partners named Joe. There were two originally both named Joe, hence the, hence the name. Um, and so it's now it's me and one of the Joes as the two, two partners. And this is what we, we do. We specialize in, in dental office design. We're based in Denver, but we work through really out in North America, um, Pretty much all the states were either licensed or able to get licensed. And it's a pretty straightforward process for us to do it remotely, which I'm happy to describe exactly how we do it. Yeah, no, that I mean, you guys are known for your designs, how clean and fresh they are. You know, give us a little flavor of that, because I I feel like as a as a coach consultant, I get a lot of people that are interested in Joe Architect because of. kind of the design element that you guys bring to the table and we're not going to get too much into design stuff today aesthetically but why do I always hear about joe architect and their designs tell me how would you describe what you guys do over there yeah well design uh I'll try to not get too philosophical here but design is is definitely about solving a problem uh and fulfilling a need and there's Really what I think we do is listen to our clients, understand the vision. There's lots of things you can get into that architects really should of understanding what is the vision? What do you envision for the space? And with dental specifically, so much of that is about the practice culture, the practice philosophy, how, what you want that patient experience to be and really getting into that and leaving out the fluff, you know, the, I guess you could call our designs modern. That's kind of a bit of a subjective word, but really what it means or should mean is get down to the essence of what's critical and don't just add things for the sake of adding them. That's, That's really, you know, less is more is kind of the simple way of putting it. Yeah, no, I think modern is the right word for it in the very general broad term of it. Folks, if you haven't gone to their website and looked at some of their work, you'll understand what Eric is talking about. How important do you think design is, Eric? I know... I think it's very important to some degree. And sometimes this this can get us into trouble because maybe things we can't afford certain things. Right. But I guess if we had a wave, the magic wand and had all the money in the world and and cost was not a concern. in your opinion, how, how important is design to the process of your buildup? Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's well, not just design, but being, being planful, um, I think is really critical to the success of, of the overall buildout process. And those do go hand in hand. Design is also making decisions, getting those things documented, getting the plan fully figured out so that when you get to the construction, you're set up for success. But, um, strictly from the kind of design aesthetic standpoint, that's, that's so it's so important to the experience of a space and the expectation. Nobody, this is really a big part of why we got into specializing in dental office design is there's always the, the kind of most people, maybe even all don't really like going to the dentist and finding any ways you can to put patience at ease and feel comfortable that's that's what the design is about um is is and not just patience I think staff uh everyone being able to enjoy a space is a function of how well the space is is designed yeah we we always talk about like vision with with our with our clients and what they're trying to embody and what kind of patients they want to attract and um I feel like a lot of the same answers come out when I'm interviewing our clients. Definitely differentiators here and there. But like big picture, they want to be tech forward. They want to serve, of course, the needs of patients, but they're looking for kind of that young professional or sometimes it will even get folks that are looking towards even a more mature demographic. Like to me, like that design is that first impression or even just a impression in general of the office. And so if it doesn't match long term, I don't think your vision will be created if the design doesn't match. Do you agree with that? Maybe in the initial, you might get the pay because we're marketing to a group of people, but then long-term though, are those people going to stay if the design doesn't match? Exactly. It's the first impression. New patients, so it's really important for startups, but new patients in particular are starting to form an opinion of what level of care, what level of service they're going to get the moment they walk into the office. They meet the office before they meet the doctor. So it's really important. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Very cool. Well, I guess that's a good place for us to kind of like jump to because I want to get into like some of the mechanics of architecture and construction, probably towards the back end of this episode. But like, let's just start with like the foundation here. Why would anybody even consider hiring an architect these days? And And let me back that up because everybody maybe a lot of you are thinking, well, how can you do it without? It's true. Like some cities require architecture, some don't. But there's this idea of the contractor controlling the whole process. And we can get into that a little bit too. But I feel like we need to address why someone would even consider an architect, even if the city isn't requiring it, or even if a contractor has someone kind of inside their company that does this for you. Why hire a Joe architect that's independent? Right. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely the starting point is it's probably gonna be necessary, but really what you're asking is what role do you want the architect to play through the process? What level of involvement, what level of guidance are you looking for? And so that's really the big question is the design is part of it, but also do you need guidance through this? And an architect that has dental experience should be doing that really guiding you through all the necessary decisions you need to make um and there's countless decisions that need to be made throughout the process not just design decisions but functionality have you thought about um you know the the flow of where things how you want the practice to run really and uh an architect that has an understanding of that will prompt those questions to really get you thinking about it and guide this in a way that all makes it a reality having the vision that as we as we just talked about really should come from from the doctor and the architect guides that in a way that meets all of the requirements the budget is a big one how do we how do we accomplish what you're after with the budget and all those other kinds of parameters of what can the space support Um, what, what's required by code, uh, all those kinds of things are really what the architect's role is, is let's, let's, let's do all of this in a way that is feasible. Uh, and so talking about all of those things through the process, uh, especially budget as, as you just hinted at the construction costs are, are, are volatile. It's really hard to know where they'll be, um, even a couple of weeks from, from now. So it's like, it's like interest rates these days. Yeah, exactly. So just really, really talking about that and then guiding the design to, to kind of fit within that budget is, it's just, is critical. Yeah. And there's a lot that you said there that I would like to unpack because you mentioned like, of course, creating the vision, Super important. We kind of just addressed that in the last question of how important that design is to vision. So an architect obviously helps you do that. I heard two things that are critical. Budget. And so maybe we can address that specifically. But but before we do the design, like when I say design, I don't necessarily mean in this in this way what colors and tile and finishes. I'm talking about like the floor plan design. Like I find that there's a lot of. wasted space in a lot of the plans that come across my desk, specifically when a contractor or an equipment rep is responsible for doing the floor plan. And look, these are great professionals. I'm not trying to call anybody out here at all. Patterson, Shine, Burkhart, Banco, you name it, are all doing free, and they are, they're free, but free floor plans. which is great. It gets the project kind of moving. It gets the juices flowing. But my concern, well, actually, let me ask the professional, what's the concern there? Again, not being accusatory, but just stating the facts. What's the concern with having someone that's not qualified to do a floor plan? Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. Sorry, qualified, but maybe not as qualified as you. Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And really, I guess to look at this in the big picture, everybody does play an important part of the team. Equipment is obviously critical to a good functional office. Absolutely. So coordinating all of that and making that work in the bigger picture is really another big, big role of the architect. The architect... kind of quarterbacks this or is really kind of the one that is coordinating with the equipment provider and coordinating with the lender to understand the budget and all of those things and really making it all kind of come together in a cohesive way. But to answer your question, we see a lot of equipment plans and they, they're, they're perfectly fine, but they, they definitely tend to be pretty equipment, understandably equipment focused and equipment centric. Uh, and, and it's really kind of a, how do we cram as much equipment in here as possible? Um, because we want to sell you all of it. And there's so many different ways and considerations that really should be thought about through the process, not just maxing out how much equipment can fit in there. Um, cabinetry is a good example of that. Really thinking about not just trying to make a ADEC stereo center fit in the space, but maybe it's more, we can, if we do something more custom, then it can more, you know, better fit in the space and be better integrated into the overall design. But in architect, it's just uniquely trained to really think about not just one side of these things, but all of the considerations of what's going to, how is this going to affect the the feel of the space, the function of the space. Every space is unique. And, you know, maybe especially in retail locations, you tend to see a lot of storefront windows just at the very front of the building. So one of the design challenges then becomes how do we get design? How do we get daylight back into the depth of the space? So it all has a good feel to it. And that's just maybe a simplistic example of kind of one of the considerations that might go overlooked for not involving an architect. Yeah, you touched on, you know, naturally an equipment specialist is going to design it in a way that's advantageous for them. And I do find a wide array of equipment specialists that are kind of old school. Some of them are new school and and everybody in between. And so the idea of wall mounts versus handheld, you know, x rays, you know, just the scanning and milling machine. I mean, things have just changed so, so fast. You know, and all of that has to be incorporated. But again, back to this wasted space situation to make it more impactful here. Let's talk about dollar. I'll add this to the conversation on my side is, you know, I like to see a practice generate at least twenty thousand dollars per month per chair. OK, that's to me, that's a fairly efficient practice. Of course, I've seen bigger, but twenty is a good a good number, twenty thousand per chair. So the more chairs we can get into the space, the more subjectively, the more money we can bring in. And so I I guess just that, that ADA codes, you know, all these things that go into it, Eric, like, what do you find that's the common thing missing when you see floor plans come across your desk? I mean, just common stuff that you catch. Yeah, well, ADA, I think most equipment providers at least have some general understanding of ADA. That's a big one that drives kind of spatial requirements for any given room and around doors and other things. But there's a lot more to it than just that. And proximity of things and understanding workflow. I mean, again, a simple example is Sterilization to the ops and getting that centralized. And that is traversed who knows how many times a day. And if you can get it closer and really generally speaking within thirty five feet of every op is really what you should target. But that's that's kind of an example of something that we don't often see met. And it's not a hard and fast rule, but those things happen. things like that add up to the overall flow of the office and the efficiency of the office. Yeah. Yeah. Steps, right? Steps and efficiency there. I love that. So that's a common one, not centralized sterilization. Any others that you can think of? Yeah. Really, well, kind of to your point, really focusing and prioritizing on the the revenue producing areas, um, and looking for opportunities for maybe multifunction, um, you know, giving, giving a doctor a big grand office, um, might be important to them, but that's gonna, that could be at the expense of one or maybe even a couple additional chairs. And so that's a point of discussion. Um, what, what, what really is the priority and most doctors, especially the next generation, it feels like that's, that's a common thing. They, they gone are the days of wanting some executive suite office. Very often they want to be tucked in a corner and maybe give me a place I can set up my laptop. That's right next to the clinic where I can just, you know, check emails in between patients. And that, that helps a lot with what we're able to fit into the space. Yeah. The, the restrooms, the amounts of restrooms is another one. And again, do you need, do you really need a private restroom off of your office? Maybe, and maybe that's important to you. But there's a code required amount of restrooms. And there's just kind of the wants and needs, but all the big, the big thing here is does the space itself have access to common restrooms? And therefore you may not need any within your space and not, not only, Can that go a long way from a spatial standpoint? That can also help quite a bit with the budget. People don't tend to think of restrooms as a big ticket item. And in the grand scheme of things, maybe they're not, but they're more expensive than people tend to understand because it's not just the room and finishes and fixtures, all the plumbing and infrastructure of exhaust fans and plumbing and everything else. adds up to easily ten to fifteen thousand dollars um towards the construction costs that can't be going to something else totally no it's great that's all that's all really good stuff I um I I will give kudos to the audience the the the modern dentists out there um you guys are listening to this podcast you're listening to other podcasts you're reading stuff you're on forums you're doing all the things you're doing the best thing you can in trying to hone your business skills. I think that's what what what was missing about ten years ago. But the business has tightened. And so you guys have had to get smarter about business and hats off to you for listening to this program and others getting more ops, cutting the executive suite, all things shrinking lab, you know, those types of decisions. It's great. It's all great. And I just want to give you guys a heads up. Keep doing it. Keep doing it. Keep learning. Let's let's pivot. So cover two topics here, but let's kind of get into some some meat and potato. When someone does hire an Eric at Joe Architect, walk us through kind of like the process, because I get a lot of questions every single day and I do the best I can with with my experience. And I do know that the process is different. for every city and every state of the country. You guys are national. So you have the same challenge I do. If I did jobs every single day in Seattle, Washington, that'd be easy for me, right? Because I would know that city very well. But across the whole country, it's totally different. But just broad strokes here. What's the process of hiring an architect and kind of getting into a project? Yep. Yeah. Well, a little bit of it depends on when the architect was brought on. And the earlier the better, because architects really should be involved in the due diligence before you've even found a location. There's other, the broker is another one that certainly should be able to help vet the space and determine that it's going to work for a dental office. But the architects too can absolutely help with that. Are the utilities serving the space adequate? um is you know is the electrical service large enough none of those things need to be a deal killer but there's certainly things you want to understand before you sign the lease or the purchase agreement um and spatially is the space going to be capable of accommodating what I want if I if I know I need five chairs is the space large enough and that can that you can get into that pretty deeply to, you know, can look at it very generally of, well, we usually see about this many chairs fit into this, this size space, or, um, you can even do some preliminary design to really understand based off of your goals of everything else you want to accomplish. What's what's possible here. So that's, that's certainly the first step. If we're, if any architect is able to be brought on and help with that, then you should lean on them to be involved in that due diligence. Then from there, really talking about everything you want to accomplish and really what are all of the goals for the office and really diving into that deeply and then working through the design process. And the design process for many, well, for us specifically, for Joe Architect, we are an architecture and interior design firm. And that's really... A big part of our design philosophy is really, and I think how we get the results that we do, is thinking about those things simultaneously. Interior design, loosely, thinking about finishes and things. And that's not always the way architects work. Finishes often... come later and we really take a different approach of getting those things really more integrated into the overall design. But the design process, really the very first step of it is the floor plan and coming up with a really good flow and function to the overall office layout. Once we've worked through that, sculpting the space, creating the full three-dimensional character of the office, selecting all of the finishes, and really, again, thinking about how we bring daylight into the space and where are we able to articulate ceiling planes and other things that all have kind of an effect on the overall feel. The function is still further developed in that three-dimensional phase of configuring all the cabinetry and everything else and down to the details of where we want you know, glove dispensers and where we need hand sinks. all of those decisions really should be made through the design process. And then finally, once those decisions are made, getting the full design clearly unambiguously documented, all of those design decisions. You chose your words very carefully there. I like that. Yep. And it's critical to be, again, be set up for success during construction because ultimately putting those documents together is what the contractor is going to build the office from. And it's vitally important that that be unambiguous, that we all be able to be on the same page of knowing exactly what the scope of the project is and what needs to happen. So every last decision needs to be made so that those things can be documented. That's a big part of what the architect should do is guiding those decisions, make them at the appropriate stage. Let me jump in because you just covered so much ground. I don't think folks really appreciate what you just covered. And I think it's it's some really good stuff in there. So I just want to highlight highlight that. Sure. To me, like there's that planning stage, which you mentioned, get you involved as soon as possible, because. negotiating with the landlord and dealing with the landlord in the space that you have that you're thinking about renting. It's a lot of considerations in that that could use a skill set like you have to help you negotiate or even start planning the process super soon. So I heard that I thought that was key. anything to add to that? Because there is a timing about signing a lease and getting construction going and that kind of like LOI phase two signing a lease. I think there's some gold in there. I think we need to discuss. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And yes, I think there is even more than not just the space itself, the lease terms. Having an understanding of of what this process looks like, what construction costs should I anticipate? What construction schedule should I anticipate? Those are all things that the architect can definitely speak to and help guide so that you can go back to the landlord and say, hey, I know what construction is going to cost. I need this for my TI allowance if you want me to sign this lease. And the construction schedule should be really understood so that again, you're able to negotiate. I want this much free rent period because I know construction today takes a lot longer than it did pre COVID, um, for example. Um, and so understanding all of those things gives you more negotiating power. It does. I, I did want to, I do want to touch on that for a second. So, so, um, I always get into the the the conversation about when to bring in a contractor, when to bring in an architect. And oftentimes I'm hearing the same thing from both of you. Right. Both both teams. But in your world, you're trying to control the construction process a little bit more than, you know, because that's part of your scope of work is really managing the costs and the timelines and all that. Like if I'm getting ready to sign a lease and hopefully we're in the middle of floor planning and there's a set of drawings that need to be submitted to get a permit. And then there's a set of drawings that need to be given to a contractor to bid. So am I saying that right? There's two sets? Well, there can be depending on what really what we... What we typically do is that they're the same. And they're used for those two purposes. But all the information is contained within the same two purposes. Is there a pitfall? And I'm just asking, is there a pitfall gaining all that information before submitting for permitting? Because sometimes you don't have all of the information you need just to get the permit process going. And I know in some cities, no problem. You can get a permit in thirty days, sixty days. Right. And then there's California, for example. And you're looking at like six months in some cases. So how's that? That's a tough one to navigate, even for me as a national consultant. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really good question. And it's... a little bit dependent on what you want to accomplish because the I'll use mechanical engineering as kind of an example that almost certainly is going to be required by the building department. They need to understand what's your HVAC look like where, and we need to see all of that and be able to approve it. But you can't really effectively do that until you have your ceiling design of knowing exactly where within the ceiling, those diffusers happen. And so it's it's jumping the gun a little bit to start the HVAC layout and the mechanical engineering before you've gotten to at least a certain level of the design development. So that there's and really the pitfall, the potential pitfall is you're going to have to change it. You're going to have to make changes and figure things out on the fly during construction. So you're you're you're spot on it. can potentially make some sense to well accept that risk because I have to get in for permitting as early as possible because I know it's going to take a short eternity um and other locations doesn't take as long and so I always try to find that out wherever I'm at like get it get an indication of if I'm more than two months to get it back um might team up with you guys and figure out how to get it in quicker with less detail, but of course more details, better, no doubt. Yeah. Yeah. And the, well, permit expediting is certainly another thing that could be talked about in some of those situations, but really, yes, understanding what you're in for and then looking for other opportunities to take advantage of that permitting time. I think it is worth diving a bit more into the contractor selection and when to bring them on. But in one of the scenarios, one of the options anyway, is bidding while that permitting process is happening and having the contractors price the project. Yes, sir. That works great when the permitting process doesn't take six months. It can happen at the same time and then get the permit right around the same time you're getting the pricing and no time is lost. Yeah, let's let's hit that. That was actually my my one of my last topics here. And it's and it's really just how to how to save on construction costs and just simply throwing some more competition into it will save you some money. And I find that with the landlords, as bullish as they've been, they're not offering as many months free rent. And also the eagerness of my clients wanting to start seeing patients ASAP, priorities start getting into a place where You know, it's just better that we get a contractor selected super early and then I'm not paying rent while construction's happening. And I'm also seeing patients as soon as possible. And so therefore I'm choosing this contractor. They've given me a chicken scratch shoot from the hip price and let's go. And the conversation that I have, and I know, Eric, you're thinking the same thing right now, is like, well, is budget a concern or is it not a concern? And on the front end, it's always a concern. And on the back end, it's always a concern. But when we're in that moment of making decisions, I find that clients are just like, let's just get it going. And then they're upset that the budget is a problem later. And they forget the conversation that we're about to have in this segment about slowing down and getting prepped and maybe doing a bid. So help me with this. Like, are you seeing the same thing I'm seeing or? Yes. Yeah. It's, it's, it's difficult because you talk, you talk about budget, then you, then you start diving in all these design decisions and it can be really exciting. And, It's just critical that you talk about the budget at really every step of the way. How are the design decisions we just made? How do they impact the budget? And where does that fall in the priority in the grand scheme of things? So again, having an architect guide that can be really helpful to make sure that you're keeping the design. It should stay coordinated with what that budget is. Yeah, it's it's it's really important. So so so controlling it and spelling it all out, Eric, let's let's let's let's just say say what this is. And so so you've got a partner now with someone like Eric and an architect that's that's spelling out all the details so that there is no chicken scratch shoot from the bid. but that the tile on the wall and the floor is very specific and spec'd out. And all the things, all the details that you probably wouldn't see. Sit down in a restaurant, folks, and just start looking around. I mean, there are so many little details that you would never see, but all of it combined gives you an experience, right? Well, those things sometimes, well, the more planning and the more detail there is on the front end, the better price there's probably going to be in the back end. So the more detail the contractors can put that into the price. And so again, hopefully you guys see that value out of being very prepped up so that when we approach the contractor, there's a lot of detail. And also you can get multiple bids going. So pitfalls in your mind, Eric, of like, bidding, and just pitfalls with saving construction in general, I suppose. Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, you just touched on it. The jumping to let's get the contractor moving here and start construction as soon as humanly possible, that's the pitfall of the being more planful. It takes longer. Getting yourself set up to make all those decisions, work all the way through the process, that's a longer process than it is to just kind of tell a contractor, I need five chairs, let me know when it's built. And the, well, in our opinion, obviously, this is what Joe Architect does. We really recommend being planful about this and spending the time on the front end so that you can make it up on the backend and, and know what you're going to get, know what you're going to get for the price that you should, because that's the construction part of this. I mean, for really what we're talking about here, sort of is a design build design, build a contractor led process where the contractor has their, they're the same group as the design company. And what I've, just described is really more of a what's called designed bid build where it's more of an architect led process. And each of them definitely have their merits. The biggest advantage, I mean, working with one group, I suppose is an advantage over having two. It's also, it is also a drawback though, because you lose some of the checks and balances and accountability. You just having one contractor responsible for all of it means they're, they're going to, They're going to tell you the price and probably be able to hit that. But at what cost? If things come up during construction, they're making decisions on your behalf. And if there's more affordable ways for them to do something that they identified through construction, you're not necessarily going to be aware of that. nor are you going to be the beneficiary of that. That's just kind of- Give a specific example, because I think I know exactly what you're saying. I just want to give the audience an example of something that can happen mid-project and a contractor just kind of making a unilateral decision there. Yeah, well- Very specific, yeah. Yeah, having the project less defined. You could definitely get started with construction just having a floor plan. and maybe we have some cabinetry over here or maybe we don't, but that, I mean, that's kind of a, that is, I guess, an example of, well, we're, you know, we might give you some cabinetry in your staff lounge, but you probably also don't even really need that. So the contractor could just kind of say, well, look, in order to hit the budget, the construction costs we promised you, you don't actually get that. And so there's, those kind of subjective things that the contractor can decide for you for the sake of the budget, holding the budget hostage or the schedule. Hey, we thought we'd be able to get this, but it's not going to arrive in time. So sorry, it's not going to happen. And in contrast to the very clearly defined scope of project that then gets priced, they get held to that. And that's really the architect's role during construction is to be the client, the doctor's advocate, and really make sure that the contractor's doing everything that they should be based off of those construction documents. Yeah. I just think that, I mean, doesn't it make sense to you guys out in the audience that if you tell somebody, hey, I want this grade of carpet, or this exact carpet, quote that, versus on the floor plan saying, hey, this shaded area is carpet. So what carpet are you going to get? Right. Yeah. And so there's a door here. OK, cool. Is that a hollow door? Is it a wood door? Is it a you know, look, I that's a perfect. Yeah, there's going to be a light right there above us. Well, what kind of light? Like what is that up lighting? Again, I am totally grasping here, but. More details equals more clarity equals, frankly, shouldn't be change orders, which are expenses that are not in the initial budget. So I think just more organization is the key, the key, key takeaway here. And anything else to add to that as, as we kind of wrap this bad boy up. Those are great examples. The other, I mean, the, Those aren't necessarily the only two options, design build or design bid build. There's also the opportunity to sometimes bring the contractor on board earlier in the process, which does have its benefits too, kind of not waiting until you've made all of those decisions, sort of a hybrid where it's still the architect-led process. We're still making all of those decisions, but bring the contractor on earlier to be part of the team. It should be a collaborative process. And the contractor can really give useful insight on, well, maybe there's a more affordable way for us to accomplish that same thing. Have you thought about that? And that can inform the design. So that can be really useful. I love that. No, I'm glad you said that because the last time I interviewed an architect and we had this exact discussion, design build versus design bid. Today, we spoke a lot about design bid. Having Eric, someone like Eric, who can control and manage the whole process and guide you through that and kind of run the whole deal versus... Design bid is the other extreme, and that is having the contractor run the whole deal. And I and frankly, I think if I'm being super honest, I think there's pitfalls of both because there's a lot of architects out there that don't. give a crap about your budget and they're just trying to make your Picasso in your dental office. And we don't have the budget for that. Right. Yep. And so I think a collaborative approach there is getting both involved soon and sooner than later and, and use Eric or an architect to suggest some things that might lower costs and have the contractor, uh, And do the same thing within the vision that you have laid out for the client. I think it can be a good thing having both early on. I think that's probably the final notes that I had. Anything else, Joe? eric I bet you get that a lot all the time um anything else as we wrap this thing up on all things why an architect and um and why they might consider reaching out to you just looking for someone to really support your vision and guide guide the process I mean the design the design frankly is a byproduct of You know, really all the planning that goes into this, understanding the vision, the parameters that you need to be working within, all of that. And really knowing that you have someone advocating for you all the way through. And that's really the most important thing. I think the design is almost secondary to a good guided process. I love it. Eric, we're going to have, excuse me, we're going to have details about your company and things below here in the description. You can watch this on YouTube, Spotify, I believe, and some others. If folks want to get a hold of you, let's have them reach out to those links and that information below in the description. But thank you so much for giving us your time today and your advice. And, you know, big, big picture. Appreciate what you do for the industry. Thanks again. Yeah, thanks for having me, Michael. Appreciate it. Another great episode. And the wraps, guys, stay tuned as we continue to walk through the startup process from top to bottom again. If you missed some of the old episodes, jump back because we are going through a startup from start to finish again. We did it once back in twenty twenty during covid and we're doing it again now. And there's so many great little tidbits as you walk through a startup in the process yourself. And so there's anything next level consultants can do for you. Please reach out. We would be happy to help without, I guess, further ado. Let's let's close this thing down. Thanks again. All right. Thanks.