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Dive deep into the innovative world of community-led housing with Levent Kerimol, Director of Community Led Housing London, as he unfolds the layers of collaborative design and development in the urban fabric.
Curated content, insights and opportunities to accelerate your career in Architecture, Design, Development and Real Estate to the next level.
Yeah. I'm Levin Caramel. I'm the director of something called Community Led Housing London. We're a team that supports groups of people, small community groups, trying to provide their own housing, really, and we do that through all sorts of routes. We also do a little bit of work with councils and others in creating opportunities for community led housing.
Levent Kerimol:Yeah. I we're, I can say a bit more about what community led housing is because it might be a term for some people. Yeah? Yeah. It's an umbrella term for lots of different approaches.
Levent Kerimol:People might have heard of housing cooperatives, community land trusts, cohousing, and I think, and there's various other versions. But I think what they all have in common is the idea that residents or wider communities control their own housing, and that might be in the development phase, which might be of interest to Arctics, but also in the kind of long term management of the homes. And there are various different mechanisms that kind of allow residents to input in it. You you think about it as an equivalent of maybe of self build, but instead of it being an individual household, it's a collection of households coming together to either to build their own homes or maybe to work with a professional developer, be that a housing association or a private developer even, and then to take ownership of that in some form of collective way. So either through a legal organization and then to keep control over how the homes run, who can live in them, how they're how they're allocated, and all of those kind of decisions being close to residents.
Levent Kerimol:And, yeah, that's very different to the conventional way of doing things where residents are right at the end of the chain and often done to rather done onto rather than doing things for themselves. Yeah. So we have a team of kind of advisers with all sorts of different skills. Mainly, it has been on the development side. We will work with groups.
Levent Kerimol:Usually, they're start up groups who don't necessarily have any real knowledge of anything to do with the built environment or housing at all. Sometimes you have architects in the mix, and that helps, but it you as you need a load of different skills. And we will talk through how they might incorporate, how they might come together as a a legal entity, how they might go about finding sites, engaging landowners, thinking about the kind of overarching business plan, if you will, of what is the concept, what's the rationale to what they're trying to achieve, and then help to bring other consultants that they might need on board. So it's like a a mentoring process that we sit alongside a group of, say, prospective residents or members of a local community that got together that wanna do housing in one one form or another and help them through that process. The other bit is Here
Stephen Drew:he is. Here he is back.
Levent Kerimol:I don't know.
Stephen Drew:Like,
Levent Kerimol:you're you lost me.
Stephen Drew:You're you're back. I've you're okay. It's a task, isn't it? I was just saying, if there's a chance it will go wrong in life, sometimes it will. But the audio listeners, you will never get to see this on the podcast because I'm gonna edit it out.
Stephen Drew:It will all be perfect.
Levent Kerimol:I've switched Wi Fi, so we'll see. Happen to be in the office today.
Stephen Drew:But It's fine. Red Mike's been the
Levent Kerimol:You know, basically, you're getting about the kind of advice we offer. Yeah. And I suppose the further thing that a group will need is funding. Yep. So particularly for the various different consultants that they might need.
Levent Kerimol:And some of those, the architects and the audience will be aware of, architects themselves plus the engineers, the quantity surveyors, then you'll need legal support. You will need someone to look at your financial modeling and engage banks and lenders. All of that takes money and is quite hard to do if you don't have any resources. So there's a bit of schedule for fundraising. To to date, we have had some funding, which is recently which we managed that early stage to to fund feasibility work to to help groups at the early stage of incorporating and approaching landowners and maybe getting to maybe what you might call a pre app stage where you've got a viable scheme that's got legs.
Levent Kerimol:And and there was also funding available from the GLA to, get planning permission as well. And that's more or less used up, so it's it's a kind of a funny environment at the moment in terms of what funding and support there might be because that early stage of getting planning is something that lenders won't lend on. You and then also to think about, is development the only way of achieving community led housing? But yeah.
Stephen Drew:Makes complete sense. Thank you, Lev, for getting there. I feel like the odds are have been against us, challenging us to get this out, so I really appreciate it. Maybe what would be cool is visualizing this, and I touched upon at the start that I lived down the road in a place called Ladywell, and you've been involved in this fantastic scheme. So maybe if you're happy with it, Lea, I'm gonna bring it up on the screen here, and you can just illustrate the audience a little bit about it so that we can start to see and visualize all those components that you're talking about.
Stephen Drew:So Yeah. First of all, what is this RUS project that you've been involved in?
Levent Kerimol:RUS is a is a community land trust, and it stands for rural urban synthesis society. It was founded over 10 years ago by people that were involved with some of the Walter Siegel self build, timber frame self build projects Yep. In Lewisham, and they were looking at how can we create a community led self build affordable and affordable in perpetuity, project that's also environmentally sustainable and massive ambitions, like everything you would want out of a a a housing scheme. And I think the rural urban is is partly to do with food growing, but also that sense of community within the city. And I've been involved in various different points.
Levent Kerimol:It's not my project, but it illustrates the some of the ambition that community groups have. As a community land trust, they have an open membership to anyone. It's not just the group of residents. So they have over a 1,000 members, and anyone can become a member for a pound. It means you get to vote for the board or you get to stand to be on the board.
Levent Kerimol:In a sense, it's got this kind of democratic as an organizational structure, it's got a democratic principle and foundation of how it's governed. And, a lot of the way they've worked has been, involving prospective residents, and, they came across a site. They approached the council. They tried to persuade the council to sell it to them. And I think my involvement in those in the early days was before the community led housing team started, but working for a leadership council briefly in a part time role and working out how the council could transfer the site to a a community group who'd never done a development, who'd only just incorporated, and how was this all gonna work.
Levent Kerimol:And we managed to work through that with a mixture of showing how it could be possible, and they were able to do that, and they had a number of supporters amongst them at the time. And then since then, they've gone on to secure those little bits of funding, bits of social investment they had to borrow to fund the planning application Mhmm. And various, you know, consultant fees. And since then, they've got bank lending and other social investment lending to get contractors on board to deliver the scheme. And now we're they've recently got to practical completion, and we're at the point where they are selling low cost ownership homes to resident members who some of whom have been with the group with the organization for a long time, but, obviously, these things take quite a long time.
Levent Kerimol:So other people have come in partway through the process, so there's been a sort of gradual change whilst maintaining that vision. And then the organization I am part of is called CDS Cooperatives, and they're a housing association, so a registered provider of social housing. And there's a role there because they have 8 rented, flats as well, and they need a housing association partner for to be the landlords of the rented homes. So we're now involved in that, and also the housing association will provision of the block as well. So it's been interesting to see it the beginning and at the towards the end of the development process, but it will obviously evolve.
Levent Kerimol:So Yeah.
Stephen Drew:It will look I'm sure it'll be great, and I'm down the road, so I can definitely pop in. Now community
Levent Kerimol:I need volunteers for gardening and all sorts of things. It's it's all been a volunteer led, thing from the beginning, really. So yeah.
Stephen Drew:It would be good. I probably should do it. I'll I'll admit. I'm not the best gardener. Everything I tend to do touch that that I touch tends to go wrong.
Stephen Drew:I don't know why maybe your computer is being touched by my IT skills as well. Nice. Who knows? But it's very fascinating. One finger community is a lot of people involved.
Stephen Drew:I was wondering quick question because a question on that point then, Lev. When you got so many people involved, of course, it's important. Of course, it's special. When you got more people involved, you got more people involved, which can mean does that mean sometimes it can get complicated? Or in your experience, how do you manage this process with lots of people and make sure things go on track, things don't get stalled?
Stephen Drew:Or, I'd love to know your experience on that front, how to coordinate a community effort to get the project going.
Levent Kerimol:Yeah. I mean, some groups are very small. Some only work for themselves as a community. So it might be a group of 5 households trying to do, like, a collective self build or a small co housing scheme, which is only for themselves. Yeah.
Levent Kerimol:With the sort of 1,000 members, it doesn't mean all 1,000 of them are involved in every single detail. It, yeah, it has to be set up in the right way, and the legal structure means that there there are annual general meetings where all members can vote for a board, and the board is maybe made up of 12 maximum 12 people usually. Sometimes it can be a bit smaller than that. So decisions are made usually as a smaller group, but then you can have subgroups and committees and working groups on particular tasks, or you might have some people and as I said, it's it's all it's mostly voluntary, so it's as much as people have time and skills to input that they might get involved in a particular aspect and for a period of time and then swap over. And even that board of 12, there's usually a maximum time limit you can serve on the board, so it will get reelected and refreshed.
Levent Kerimol:So there's usually, in a healthy organization, a churn of, people who are volunteering and passing the baton on between each other, but all united behind a common vision that hopefully stays together throughout the life of the project. And it does mean how do you deal you know, maybe some of your question is you can have disagreements as well. Yep. It's how do you resolve those, particularly when it's an organization with a lot of members and not all of them are gonna be residents. It's drawn from the wider community, and I think a lot of the members support it because they think it's a good project and it's a different thing to to get behind.
Levent Kerimol:And sometimes just being a member is just showing your support for it. And some people have a bit more time to contribute, and they might get a little bit more involved, and it's not necessarily as personal. In the Rust project, they had some self finish flats, so they allocated the homes to people fairly early on in the process.
Stephen Drew:And
Levent Kerimol:they also ran co designee sessions early on as well. So maybe there was a bit more of a sense of, okay. This is gonna be my flat, but even that wasn't totally fixed because the development process is so long. People have fallen out of the list, and other people have come in, so you still get a little bit of that change. I think where it's a smaller group and you all intend to be residents of the scheme, then you can get conflict.
Levent Kerimol:And, actually, we've got an an adviser now who specializes in kind of some of that that the communication styles, and there's something called nonviolent communication and just a lot of kind of coaching facilitation work and how you talk to people and how you think about your meetings and how you get is it the decision making can sometimes be an issue. So is it, consensus that everyone has to agree on something? Is it a democratic vote, which might mean some people just don't like what's happening? So there's there's a lot of stuff to think about around, like, how we agree to make decisions. Usually, I think at an early stage, if it's a small group of people, there's enough to keep them together, and you usually get quite a small core group really driving these projects.
Levent Kerimol:And the and most often, they are quite sort of inspirational people who, have a lot of energy to to make these things happen. But you need all sorts of different kinds of skills and personalities. So I think a a good group will have a range of different skills and in being organized and as well as having the energy and the ambition and the vision to convince other people, convince partners, convince land owners. Yeah.
Stephen Drew:It's very interesting. And maybe to expand upon that, because you mentioned there a good group or a good community behind a certain project. Now can we what I'd love to know is you've seen that few while there's been a range of success, in your opinion, what makes a really good group or drive a project forward? Do you have any insights on that front on what works really well and maybe things that you've learned that doesn't work as well, if that makes sense.
Levent Kerimol:Yeah. There's not a 100% recipe. I do think having tends to be having a smaller core group can be more effective in making decisions more quickly. I think you sometimes have to be fairly agile. And Yep.
Levent Kerimol:It's not necessarily about professional skills or backgrounds. Although sometimes as an as an organization gets a little bit more formalized, you can try and recruit, mem you know, members even even where you have a group of, people who want to be the prospective residents. You can co opt, committee members, in in a in a housing coop, for example, that maybe have a finance background or a legal background. Sometimes that helps. I think the kind of mentoring that that we provide through advisers fills in some of the gaps.
Levent Kerimol:So if you don't have a a brilliant kind of finance person, we can say what's a sensible decision or not or what's likely to work or not work if you don't have those skills. And then the other bit of it, I think, is just enthusiasm and passion, which which is the easier said than reality. It because we we often find groups are enthusiastic to begin with, and some of these projects take a long time. And you sometimes have to think about how long will that enthusiasm last and how what's the kind of staying power and maybe having, you might call it succession planning, but what happens if key individuals are no longer around? Are you doing enough to bring in the next sort of wave of people?
Levent Kerimol:Really interesting example I can think of is a community land trust in Water Forest called Forest CLT. We've had really good people, real energy, and tried lots of things, lots of different approaches, looked at lots of different sites, tried to engage the council, and for one reason or another, none of those has really worked. And I think most groups probably have given up, but somehow they've managed to keep it fresh and get new members and get new people into the boards just to keep it going and say, we're not here. We're not gonna disappear just because you're saying no right now. And then you have some other groups where, you know, so you could say they're not successful because they haven't managed to secure secure a site yet.
Levent Kerimol:But equally, on the other hand, they're a very successful organization, and they maybe do other things alongside the housing SKUs. So they may do other events and other, social gatherings and and all sorts of other things. So there's more to it than just housing or just development as well. On the other hand, there's groups where they are doing quite well on the development, but maybe they're not as strong on the governance side, Like, how are you organized as a group, as an organization? And there might be work to do on that, that maybe gets either ignored or isn't prioritized because the project's moving.
Levent Kerimol:So you need a bit of both, and there isn't a one formula, and it's not it's necessarily that if you've got a good organized group that you're successful. But equally, sometimes successful groups aren't brilliantly well organized either.
Stephen Drew:Very interesting. I can feel the passion here. But just before we talk about that and how you keep going, your background is very interesting because that's how we accidentally met at the start. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Because how did you get here to where you because this is the role you do now.
Stephen Drew:You have these groups. But let's peel it back a second. How did you get here there? How did you get involved with these kind of projects?
Levent Kerimol:Okay. So I I guess I started I I studied architecture, which is probably why I'm here somewhat. I worked for a couple of years in years out. They were fine. They were small office in Clerkenwell.
Levent Kerimol:I did a year in Holland, spent a bit of time at OMA as well. And those experiences were interesting, but I I think I knew from my year out that I wasn't as interested in the sort of detailing stuff. Yeah. I was bit more interested in the wider things. And with my diploma, I was able to really just explore that.
Levent Kerimol:And I think that's a lot of people talk about architecture being a long course, and I think you don't really find yourself until you get to to diploma. And and or maybe some people take even longer than that to find what their thing was. But I read, I think, some things one of the writers was someone called Colin Ward, who's more like a an anarchist writer. He's known as being an anarchist writer, but he actually also did some time as an architectural apprentice. So he had an interest in this stuff.
Levent Kerimol:He wrote about self builds and, the idea that, residents should control, their own housing was something that was always an interest of that at that point. In my diploma work, I looked at self build, but then that opens up loads of questions around what is the politics and the financial stuff around architecture. And when you're working in an office, you're usually working for a client and you're somewhat removed. I suppose the only time you really get close to it will be if you're doing a private house, but then you only end up working for, like, fairly wealthy clients wanting to do a private house or an extension or something. It was trying to think about that, and that interest in the stuff around the usual architecture led me a little bit into the public sector.
Levent Kerimol:Yep. So I was part of a team called Design for London that some people might remember. It was originally the architecture and urbanism unit under Ken Livingstone and when Richard Rogers was the his adviser for, I don't know, architecture and design or whatever, which then has stayed in London government for some time. And that was interesting because it meant I could see more of how initially, we were just giving design advice to, say, planning teams, but then we were also commissioning projects and helping with the selection of architects. And we worked in quite an area based way.
Levent Kerimol:So we might work on a master plan at the same time as, being involved in spending some money on some public realm projects. We might be involved in a planning application from a private developer or a housing association, and they would all be different architectural teams, and it felt a little bit like you were curating a place and trying to make sure that they all met up and tied together. And often, they they were places all across London. I spent quite a lot of time in East London when it was kind of Thames Gateway World, had a lot of focus around regeneration and planning, did a lot of work in Barking Town Centre and Raynham, and then worked all over London as well. The emphasis shifted maybe to start looking at high streets as a thing and thinking about the retail spaces.
Levent Kerimol:We thought and then I also started to work on the what you might call workspace, and affordable workspace projects was another thing. So thinking about the non housing bits of regeneration, like the socioeconomic side of regeneration. And at the same time, it was also another role was looking with planning policy colleagues on the housing design standards as they were, the the as space standards. And I was involved in some of that, particularly when government was trying to rationalize them. They they had a cutting red tape initiative, and somehow, bizarrely, that the the London standards became adopted as an optional national thing.
Levent Kerimol:And that was a really interesting thing to be part of as well-being involved with kind of government and and so on. But I think I had always had this interest in how if we could rather than trying to advise to get better design, what would happen if prospective residents are involved in that process? So rather than saying, okay. It's a top down thing that we try to get good design, it feels like what's really important is that the future residents are barely ever in that conversation. Even when a lot of well meaning practices, do consultation, you're usually asking existing neighboring residents, not future residents.
Levent Kerimol:The only time future residents are included in that, process will probably be as estate agent statistics or waiting list numbers, but it doesn't give you a sense of who's gonna live there or what they might want. And in some ways, their views are arguably more important than the surrounding neighbors. And and you felt, okay. If they had more power in that process, we might get better outcomes. So I think that's been there a long for a long time, and I I continue to explore that on the side a little bit and even did a bit of part time sabbatical where I ended up working for Lewisham Council and did a little bit of work for, housing association that's now been taken over by Peabody out in Thamesmeade looking at self build opportunities and learning more about housing cooperatives and community net housing.
Levent Kerimol:I think that oh, and the other thing I should mention is I also decided what I really needed was to understand more about the real estate side of it and the financing side of it. I ended up doing a a part time masters in in real estate at Henley Business School, Reading Universities. Frog started off in architecture, leapfrog planning a little bit, and did a bit of stuff in real estate, which I'm still not a massive expert in. It has to be said, but, enough of a working knowledge to cover a lot of those size of the built environment world. It has to be said.
Levent Kerimol:I'm not an expert in how you build a building because I've never done a part 3. It it's one thing or another. But, yeah, definitely interested in early process of how things come about and, you know, who's behind them and yeah.
Stephen Drew:Yeah. Don't worry. I'm I'm the same. I'm forever in the architectural assistant part 2 camp
Levent Kerimol:because I've
Stephen Drew:I've never got my part free, but that's okay. We we do weird and wonderful things in the wider industry. Earlier, you mentioned that in these community led groups, sometimes there's architects involved. But what's quite interesting is potentially in this audience, a lot of architects listening. And where do you think, Leva, that they could get involved and really show value in terms of getting these community projects moving along?
Levent Kerimol:Most of them still need architects. Often, you do get architects if it's it's a tricky one because yours I know there's a lot of debate about how much work architects should do for free, but it does help to have a sent if if it's a community group that doesn't have any of that kind of skill and can't assess whether a site is a goer or a good site or what you can fit on a site Yep. At early stage, no developer is spending money. No housing association is spending huge amounts of money to do design work, and you have to have a sense of what's possible with a site. And I think sometimes if you can if you have the experience of that's a very valuable thing to be able to community group, whether, it leads to future work or which role you take in it, can can vary, I think.
Levent Kerimol:Sometimes I think a lot of artists do have the idea that they they might build their own scheme with a with a group of their friends, which is great. They they might be the prospective residents. Architects can also be members of the community that that you that they live in or that they're part of. Might, you know, take a useful place on boards as I was mentioning, or equally they might be as kind of consultants or advisers to groups. But I think sometimes it helped to be clear that you are only giving architectural advice and just make those lines of engagement clear, like, what it is you are giving advice on.
Levent Kerimol:Sometimes because of the usually the widespread nature of what architects know about, they know a bit about the wider development process. They know a bit about some of the legals, but not all of it. You need to be able to say, yes. Okay. But this isn't I think it's this, but it's not my area of specialism.
Levent Kerimol:And being clear with the group that you might need specialist advice here and there, and if it is a group trying to say, I know a bit, but I don't know everything. But, yeah, having that as a as within groups is not a it's not an essential thing, but it can be a useful thing. It does mean you're probably volunteering, and I don't know. It might depends how people feel about that.
Stephen Drew:Yeah. I will. And it depends. Sometimes it's quite nice to do something pro bono or in between or have a passion project, and this could be something that you could lend you could lean into, especially maybe if there's a project near you or something like that. It it makes complete sense.
Stephen Drew:Now what I'd love to talk about as well is it seems that there's been a lot of tech technological change in the news. We talk about AI. We talk about all this kind of stuff. What I'd love to know, Lev, do you think that all these new emerging tools could help these community projects, could be a positive thing, or do you think it's not gonna really interfere with it or not gonna get involved? Because you got it sounds like it's a very people process.
Stephen Drew:So maybe there's an opportunity there, but equally, maybe it does make a difference. Do you have any kind of thought early thoughts on that potentially?
Levent Kerimol:I don't know. I've played around with some of the AI things, not in a huge amount of detail. I think there's they I suppose my general sense is they'll they'll be tools and they're just like we've got current technology tools, they're tools, and the people behind them will continue to use them. They make things they might make things easier to do just as a tool does. We save some of the labor saving ness of things.
Levent Kerimol:Yeah. Weirdly, I was reflecting on some of the projects from the past and thinking they didn't even have emails. Things were drawn on drawing boards, and you you you look at some of the planning applications and some of the correspondence that they have on, like, typewriters and anything, actually, it was a lot simpler back then. Yeah. And it probably because people didn't have track changes on Word documents that they could spend infinitely redoing or even CAD drawings that you can keep editing and fiddling with.
Levent Kerimol:So that's I think one of the things that's happened with technology is it possibly a good thing. It just means we're looking at things in a lot more detail. And I suppose you could even say that of planning applications, the amount of effort that it takes, the the the layers of stuff that people look for, I think, wouldn't have been possible if we didn't have the technology that we do now. Mhmm. That that just creates, in a way, creates more work.
Levent Kerimol:I don't think that's all to do with the technology. It's just because the because it's available, we can make use of it. But then in a way, everyone can make use of it. And I think that it's probably not I don't know, I I I'm really just making stuff up here, but the technological change isn't gonna be the thing that maybe makes more community housing happen or not. I think it is the reasons to do it will be one more of social justice, if you will, or that sense of is it important for where power sits in society or in our built environment or how decisions are made around housing and and how that power is distributed, is more the question.
Levent Kerimol:And I think there's there's been waves around that and, maybe it comes and goes, maybe it takes different forms, but it's an ongoing question. I know it's it's an important topic around what is if we can achieve better outcomes by working with with people. So particularly if you are an organization that has a lot of power, how can you share that? How can you divulge that? So some of the work we're doing with councils is to say, yeah.
Levent Kerimol:Okay. You can deliver lots of stuff, and it'll be interesting to see what happens with future governments. And the drive towards council housing can be in in many ways, it's a it's it's it's a good thing, but also let's not forget you have massive corporate institutions that the individual residents can get lost in. Same sort of thing with the increasingly large housing associations that we're seeing. You're emerging and merging into ever larger organizations.
Levent Kerimol:Arguably gets some efficiencies economically, but equally creates more and more layers of governance and bureaucracy and maybe makes the actual end users more distant from the process. So there's, I think, a balance to be found around those kind of issues. Like, what does it mean to share power? What is the real role of how an individual lives in their home? What control they have over their home?
Levent Kerimol:And even with, I think, community health is maybe answering some of those questions in the the scope around the private rented sector, for example, where you might not even have a large entity, but it's the distantness of who the landlord is and the lack of control around what it means to live in your home and and to get a repair done or to change the color of the walls or whatever that that might make you have a sense of belonging in your own home that you're removed from. And I think that is as important a question as the unaffordability of, private rents as well. So if you're just addressing an an affordability question, I think you're missing out a lot more about what it means to live in in in a home or what makes a home and what makes a community and a a group of neighbors around.
Stephen Drew:Mhmm. It well, I think it's an interesting time. Sometimes I do agree with you, especially with all these emails in you get meetings. Sometimes I think meetings upon meetings is the death of innovation, isn't it? You don't get anything done.
Stephen Drew:You end up just going into meetings. Now I have one more question before we do that though. Difree Star, who is an architecture student in the Philippines, asked, how do you manage the residents and community members to actively participate in the decision making process and contribute to the design and development of the housing to meet their longer term needs. He laugh at the end. How do you get how do you keep people involved, Lev, not drifting off and all this stuff?
Stephen Drew:Do you have any tips for definitely deeply on the on this point? I know you covered it and what success
Levent Kerimol:I've I've mentioned some of that. I suppose the thing I might add is, you know, you having the ability to step back a little bit, and if you're losing momentum and you don't have the time and and so on, allowing others to come in, is part of it. Sometimes things need a bit of a reboot. Sometimes it's also saying, okay. You might be tired of this project.
Levent Kerimol:We still think it's got leg as a as a kind of professional. It's taken a long time. Yeah. But we it's got legs. And if you as individuals want to pull out of it, maybe there are others out there who might want to step in and take over what you've done.
Levent Kerimol:And it's not in a way, I would say, it's not wasted time even. Like, I think you have to maybe see it. As I said, these are voluntary things that people do a lot of stuff as hobbies outside. You might join a book club or something else, and sometimes it's an opportunity just to learn more about the built environment or the development process if you're not in it already. And if you just see as, okay, the the journey is interesting, and I might not have achieved something, but I've learned something for a period of time, and I'm now I'm gonna do something else, and I'll let someone else in.
Levent Kerimol:So that's one thing. The other thing that I think it there's something in there about the long term needs. So that's that can be quite interesting where you have like, many of the housing cooperatives that were set up in the 19 8 seventies eighties Mhmm. Been going for a long time and probably paid off most of their sort of mortgage debts, development loans, etcetera. And they're now in the position of going, okay.
Levent Kerimol:We we now have rental income, and we're not having to pay off the loans. What do we do with that income? And many of them, they sit in reserves and they accumulate. So they're nonprofit organizations, so they can't pocket them as individuals. And there's a question there of what they then do with any surplus or might have accumulated.
Stephen Drew:Mhmm.
Levent Kerimol:And do they put it into other similar projects? Do they try to do another new development themselves? And often, the residents who might have been very actively involved when they were younger in setting this thing up in the eighties, and now in their sixties, they're now retired, older, and they don't have the same energy, and it maybe feels a bit more of a risk to do a new development project, particularly if it involves putting their existing homes on the line again. And I think that we need to think of better mechanisms for helping those groups feel comfortable about putting aside some of the money into some other institutions that maybe help develop new community led homes and what they might get out of that as an organization. Because sometimes I think it's a bit of a mismatch.
Levent Kerimol:I think sometimes they've been put into the position of being like mini housing associations, and really, that's not really their main point in many cases. A lot of the people just wanna live in their home as they get they they make decision. The day to day stuff matters. So getting control over repairs, deciding what to prioritize in terms of a repair or a bit of a maintenance or a bit of a change, but they're not in the job of trying to do another new development. Some people have the bug.
Levent Kerimol:They get bitten, and they get the enthusiasm, and then they go on from project to project, and they become a bit more of a specialist in that. So it's I think it's a mixture of organizational mechanisms to keep energy and momentum going, but also I think there might be some financial mechanisms whereby established projects help to support new projects. Because if we see each of them as one of tiny little projects, then they don't really add up to more than than some of their parts, I think.
Stephen Drew:Very useful in insights there. The last thing I was gonna say, Lev, is because some architects have felt beaten up over the last post pandemic. It's been a bit tricky in terms of some projects. There hasn't been as much work, particularly in the residential sector, as one would have liked. It there's some people think that there are signs of it getting better.
Stephen Drew:I've spoke to some developers who are waiting for the interest rate, Wayne, because it's been a bit of a turbulent time here. I was just wondering your thoughts and your outlook on on the next few months to the next year or 2. Are you feeling positive? Are you cautious? What's your thoughts?
Stephen Drew:Because you your feet are on the ground here. You're seeing things as they move.
Levent Kerimol:We've seen that same thing that initially, the construction costs, lots of reasons, pandemic, maybe Brexit, construction market doing really funny things, massive price rises, and then that feeding into the wiser economy. Interest rates, as you say, makes it very difficult to develop anything. And it's not just it's hard enough trying to do something as a start up community led group, but professional developers, private developers are struggling, housing associations are struggling. Yes. I see that.
Levent Kerimol:I think we are trying to come up with a model that maybe doesn't put all the pressure on community led groups to do everything. It's it you could say it's some of the sharing of power. I think also some of it is, do we always need to think about development, or are there ways of taking on existing housing and adapting that you know, thinking about the ownership of them, which is a fundamental part of who's the landlord. Yep. And that is still affected by interest rates, but I'm not an economic expert, but the government says that should, at some point, ease.
Levent Kerimol:And if we can do that, then I think mixing things into models where maybe others might do the development side of it, take the development risk, and maybe they are more able to do that. And we bring on board community groups, either existing community groups that want to buy into a scheme, or we, one of the things we're looking at is whether we can kind of form communities around existing developments that may already be happening. So, if a developer's got a scheme, is there a way we can think about how residents are brought on board earlier in the process? And maybe they don't commit to be to like, as through presales, but it always gets me how many large developments have these kind of showroom marketing suites, and they have their sold under offer on the plans or the models. And you just think, okay.
Levent Kerimol:Maybe we should just have an event where all those people could get together, have a picnic, a barbecue, or something, and get to meet each other before they move in. And and maybe they can also be asked to decide things about the schemes relatively non not massively financially costly things. Like, it might be how the planting works or decisions of maybe the ground floor, even what the scheme is called could be up to the residents. And that would help form a community, or sense like, getting a bit more of a neighborliness to what you might otherwise move into as an anonymous kind of person on day 1. And you maybe hope that something happens, but probably doesn't, and everyone retreats behind their front doors of their flats.
Levent Kerimol:And then the management is done by someone else anonymously who you've never met and probably charges you very large service charge when what, you know, what are the opportunities that the community might do for themselves as as residents? So I think we're exploring those kind of communities, whether there's whether there's building groups around developments, whether it's buying existing developments. And I think that's from a community led housing perspective, but I I don't know if it addresses the kind of, are we building enough stuff? I think there's maybe a question of, should we be building lots of stuff from scratch, or there there's a whole massive debate around retrofit at the moment, and I
Stephen Drew:I
Levent Kerimol:think it possibly plays into that as well. And my sense is this might be a bit of a controversial view, but a lot of people have said this in in terms of housing. There is a decent amount of housing stock already out there, and sometimes why it feels like we need to be building more is because we're not building the right stuff or we're not addressing some of the under occupation, arguably. There's a I think there's a massive potential in people who could be freeing up properties. It it that's how to grasp.
Levent Kerimol:And possibly the reasons why they're not moving out is that they feel very attached to where they have lived for the whole of their lives, so they no longer need the the number of bedrooms that they have. And they probably move into something, but they feel a bit scared because they don't know who they're gonna be moving in with, who are their neighbors, who are their network of support. But if we can build some sort of sort of co housing communities where, people have a sense of mutual support and neighborliness, before they move in, that can make you feel a little bit more attractive and feel like, okay. I'm not gonna be a stranger in this new thing, and and maybe that is an appropriate place to move into. And I think we could be, there's there's value in those things for other reasons, not just in building new units for the sake of units.
Stephen Drew:Got him. Wow. We were opening up Pandora's box there at the end, Lev, because the audience has been peeking up. We've got Deathly Stars wrote back with some emojis. I don't quite understand it, but, well, thank you very much.
Stephen Drew:While we were talking there, Red Mike said, hell yes. Coming up with a name could be a deep connection for the community. It's like hanging out and picking a band's name. And also passionately said, while you were talking, do more with less. So thank you, Red Mike.
Stephen Drew:And Red Mike, we put him as the 3rd guest here because while we were having a little bit of technical problems at the start, Red Mike was keeping me company. Thank you so much, Red Mike. Yogesh Taylor jumps in and goes, hi, Steven Lev. The interest a high interest rate, inverted commas for our audio listeners, debate interest mean interest rates are now at a normal rate. The lowest interest rates we had 10 years ago, so it's an anomaly, and that was 1 hour 2.
Stephen Drew:And then he says, so are we saying that we can't build when the interest rate are abnormal and only when they're historically low? If so, what does that say about the industry? Oh, do you do you have any thoughts on that quickly, Lev, before we go?
Levent Kerimol:Yeah. Yeah. You might be right. I think banks it's not so much what the base rate is. I think banks have been very reluctant, and it's the uncertainty.
Levent Kerimol:And I think it's also the construction cost hasn't like, there's just a lot of I see it like a sort of number of ways that that sort of just haven't quite aligned and synchronized, maybe. Mhmm. I think some of the challenges are because construction is relatively so expensive. It's just not viable, you know, if you're spending that much to build something and what you can sell it for, and what people can afford to buy, I think it it's that misalignment that we're going through at the moment. So hopefully, it'll all slightly align a bit more.
Stephen Drew:Hopefully. Fingers crossed. That would be nice, wouldn't it? I think we've had quite a little bit of a a weird and wild ride here. And if I haven't scarred you to death on on doing live streams, Lev, I think this has been a good one.
Stephen Drew:But in before you go, do you have any questions for me at all?
Levent Kerimol:I I don't know really. I I'd be interested to you were mentioning about not really being an architect and doing interesting things around the side and Yeah. Around the edges of architecture. And I I don't know if you've got any reflections on that and what's
Stephen Drew:doing technical details drawing. So that was me in a nutshell. I had my line manager who's a project architect, and he was like, Steve, you need to really care when you're doing these details. Otherwise, it won't stack up. And I was like, Barry, you hit the nail on the head.
Stephen Drew:I don't care. And that's why I had to find something else. However, I think the architect and this and I'm glad that you've gone on and been involved in this stuff because I think just because you're not passionate about maybe the technical drawings of certain aspects doesn't mean you're not an intelligent person. I find that it's a shame sometimes when architecture students, in particular, they get a bit disillusioned that they, quote, unquote, fail because there's many different ways that you can add value in the industry. And I do think that listen.
Stephen Drew:If you wanna get your part 1, part 2, and 3, fantastic power to you. I'm sure you can add a lot of value to society, but it's not the only way. And I think sometimes in the course, the I don't know how you felt that, but at the time, by not doing my part 3 at first, that felt like a massive taboo. And, initially, I had that kind of imposter syndrome, like failure. I'm not good enough to be an architect.
Stephen Drew:You're in this kind of world. Whereas I do genuinely believe that a lot of people who study architecture offer a lot of value. That there's there isn't one of the members of Pink Floyd, I've studied architecture. That's the one that keeps popping up, but I I like to keep that one in my back pocket. But what I would say is how I go about my business sometimes the the so the architecture social as a business, I think I lean into the ways you learn architecture, that deep analytical thinking, and and there's lots of value there.
Stephen Drew:Downside is, as architects, I think that we sometimes can do those long hours and crazy stuff, and I have done that. Ironically, when I was in the industry, I used to try and work 9 to 5. Now have my business, I do the long hours like I did at uni. So I don't know if that's good because it's Yeah.
Levent Kerimol:Yeah. Yeah. That that's why I just think it's that's really interesting. I did a year out in Holland, and I think it's different in some other countries where they make a distinction. It's different skill set.
Levent Kerimol:They say that they and they have architectural technicians that study that as a separate course, and it is valued. Actually, some of the kind of highest paid people in the office were the architectural technicians because they really knew how to build stuff, and then they spent time working for the contractor as well, so they really understand that side. And then there's the sort we might call more the design architects. And I think one of the things that happens in the UK is when you're studying, the earlier part 1, part 2 is give you the impression that you can do all this wonderful stuff, and then Yeah. You realize that's certain part of it, and then there's another part of it as well, which doesn't doesn't quite prepare you for that.
Levent Kerimol:So, yeah, it's but, yeah, also agree with you that I I find one of the things I think working in the public sector, working with, like, lots of other people in dis different disciplines, I've realized, you know, architects aren't the be all and ends all and every of everything. Lots of other people that bring lots of different kinds of values, yet at the same time, I'm drawn back to something that is a reference point for me. And you look at it, And it is a way of thinking, so it's an approach. And I think it, you know, you can use it you can use your architectural thinking in lots of different ways. Yeah.
Levent Kerimol:So it's
Stephen Drew:definitely worth it. It's one of those things that I always think, could I be an architect now? Would I do it again? Absolutely not. But do I value my part 1 and part 2, like, immensely?
Stephen Drew:And, actually, I do still love the architecture community. And I have really good deep friends who are architects, and I still go to the hang out with them. And they might argue about the cladding and the facade, and I don't have a clue why they're arguing, but they are good people. So it's a nice club to be a part of, but some of us black sheep go on and do different things. I went more into sales.
Stephen Drew:You actually got involved in communities, though, so that's I do implore you for that. Last thing, Lev, because we talked about a lot. You really unpacked it really well. But if people wanna see what projects you're up to or start employing, how do they find out all that information again? I'll bring the link back up, but could you run through Yeah.
Stephen Drew:A little bit?
Levent Kerimol:Yeah. We've got a website which lists loads of projects in London. There's probably we get, new inquiries from groups. Just get in touch. We're not it's not so big that people don't know each other.
Levent Kerimol:There's lots of kind of sub worlds in London, and then there are national bodies as well. There's various resources on another national website. It can seem a little bit confusing because there's so many different terms which begin with some sort of community or code at the beginning of them. I'm happy to talk through them and to do the kind of nerdy technical explanations. So yes.
Stephen Drew:Brilliant. Thank you so much, Lev. You've been an absolute star. I'm gonna end this livestream in a second, but stay on the stage. Don't click the button just yet.
Stephen Drew:Stay on there for one more. But thank you to the in the audience, and it's I feel like it's been a good episode, but I appreciate. I could see a lot of you have been talking in the background, and that's what it's about. And thank you for adding comments and also persevering with me at the start. You know what?
Stephen Drew:These technical things happen. What can you do? It's like, but it's good proof that what you're getting here is real and honest conversations. Sometimes things go a bit squiffy on. Anyways, thank you so much.
Stephen Drew:More content soon. Thank you so much for that for you being here. These community projects, I think, is what's important. Without it, I think we're starting to one of the things is we could be losing touch. So it's really cool to learn about that, but also nice to know that whether you wanna put your architect hat on or not or just being part of a community, you can get involved in these projects.
Stephen Drew:I will think about the rodent lady. I don't think they should put me in the gardening part. Maybe they should put me somewhere else. Picking up the rubbish or something, that sounds like a job for me. Thank you so much to everyone in the audience.
Stephen Drew:I'm gonna end the livestream now. And to you, Lev, I really appreciate it. And thank you, Red Mike, as well for giving me a good giggle. Take care, everyone. Bye bye.