EP19 (Part 2): “I Want to Plant my Flag with You All Over Here” - Nkata with Njideka Akunyili Crosby

Part Two of a two-part conversation.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby’s portrait The Obamas: Springing Forth marks another chapter in an illustrious career shaped by Nigerian life, family histories and movement between cultures.

Continuing her conversation with Emeka Okereke, she opens a window onto the decisions, uncertainties and encounters within her practice. From the Obama portrait to Lagos and Igbo proverbs, their exchange follows the relationships and inherited knowledge that sustain her work, including the foundations laid by her mother and father.

For artists, students, researchers and curious listeners, this concluding part offers insight into how lived experience becomes artistic language—and how a practice continues to grow.

Begin with Part One

In this conversation

- The artistic demands of a major portrait commission
- Uncertainty, attention and the decisions within a painting
- Images, specificity and the experience of recognition
- Lagos, Invisible Borders and the importance of encounter
- Family, language and knowledge across generations

Chapters

00:00:00 Painting Through uncertainty
00:17:43 Inside the Obama Portrait
00:32:26 Making the Images Yours
00:43:48 A Painting as Journey
00:51:09 Returning to Lagos
01:03:53 Invisible Borders
01:15:17 The Wisdom of Ilu

About the guest

Njideka Akunyili Crosby is a Nigerian-born artist based in Los Angeles. Working across painting, drawing, collage and photographic transfer, she brings family histories, everyday spaces and Nigerian popular culture into compositions that hold multiple places and experiences together.

Explore further

- NKATA Podcast
- Njideka Akunyili Crosby — artist profile and work
- The Obamas: Springing Forth — Obama Foundation
- Invisible Borders — The Trans-African Project

Listen to more conversations from Art & Processes at NKATA Podcast.

Portrait of Njideka Akunyili Crosby by Shaughn and John

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Creators and Guests

Host

Emeka Okereke

What is NKATA: Art and Processes?

NKATA is an Igbo word from the language spoken by the Igbo people of Nigeria. It simply means "Conversation". Thus this podcast series will feature conversations with selected individuals (artists, cultural operators, and creatives) whose work I have known – some over many years and others, a little less so. What sets them apart is that I consider them and their works to be compelling, engaging and relevant to the time. The idea of this podcast is to have in-depth but also accessible conversations about who these individuals are, their life’s journeys and how this translates into their vocation as creative people. Conversations will depart from exploring the background of the artists' personal history while meandering through key themes, positions, and ideologies central to their works. Each episode will feature one conversation with a selected artist. Emeka Okereke (Host).

NOTE EP19: “I Want to Plant My Flag with You All Over Here” - Nkata with Njideka Akunyili Crosby | Part Two
NOTE Lightly edited clean-read transcript, not verbatim. Nonsemantic hesitations, accidental function-word repetitions and selected abandoned starts have been removed; emphasis and substantive repetitions remain. Name corrections and unresolved wording are documented in the editorial record. Original cue time anchors are preserved; text-only omissions leave time gaps. This remains an edited automated transcript with flagged uncertainties, not a fully auditioned transcription.

[Opening theme music]

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think I'm talking about being worried and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think what really started worrying me is at

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this point, I'm getting closer and closer to the deadline and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I still hadn't figured out a major part of the composition.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think what really like shook my confidence is.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had had a, maybe like, because I'm such a planner.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That it's rare for me to finally make a decision and it doesn't work.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I'm not like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm not somebody who is unable to pivot.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will switch.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it is rare just because I take so

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: long to like, plan and stetch and
Emeka Okereke: To plant things around, they're very meticulous.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: think it through and very meticulous.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So if it doesn't work, I shrug it off.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's not ideal.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm kind of irritated, but I move it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't, I'm not wedded to things.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like if it's not working, it's not working.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But for it, and it's rare for it to happen.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like just a handful of times it's happened in years.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so for it to happen once, I thought, oh, God

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this is already like, you know where you're like, oh, is this a bad omen?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You shrug it off, you keep going, and then it happened again.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like twice in the same piece.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, 1st of all, was having the window in the wrong place and
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then realizing the thing I wanted in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the window was not right.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I think that really messed
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with my head and I got really nervous.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know where you feel like, 0 god, I think I've lost my...
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I've lost something.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: something is not clicking.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I was, I think I like stress, I was
Emeka Okereke: Yep.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I think I just found myself thinking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: oh God, I'm like, you know, there are some athletes that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: do well at the last 3 seconds and they step up to the clock.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think this whole project, I thought, I think I'm not that person.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I'm not that athlete who does well in clutch moments.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm too scared and level.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm worried

Emeka Okereke: Could it be, could it be, could it be one

Emeka Okereke: of these 2 things or both, one being that

Emeka Okereke: the, you know, the immensity, of

Emeka Okereke: of the task, you know, like having to

Emeka Okereke: you know, put your bombers in this space.

Emeka Okereke: Come on, this is, I mean, that's larger than life.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, this is, this is going to be there for, you know, I
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: who

Emeka Okereke: That's one, that's one.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: We, like, I can't even imagine when
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: I, when I saw, you know, you know

Emeka Okereke: the publicity, you standing talking about the work and

Emeka Okereke: also, Barack and Michelle

Emeka Okereke: discussing it, all of you.

Emeka Okereke: I'm like, this is, this is incredible.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: I was even feeling for you, how you would be feeling
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.

Emeka Okereke: you know, like, how, you know, it's incredible.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Congratulations so much, so much.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: View.

Emeka Okereke: Because already, I can imagine the

Emeka Okereke: the amount of, you know, the weight of responsibility that comes with that.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Forget, you know, the other aspect of it, but the weight that to get it right.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: So that's one, and then secondly is, if

Emeka Okereke: it was something that you are doing as part of your artwork where

Emeka Okereke: you are collecting your, you know, and going by your

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: own inner compass and not, you know, would
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes.

Emeka Okereke: it have been like, so which one is it?

Emeka Okereke: Oh, is it both?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: hold on, I want to make sure, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: don't forget what I wanted to talk on.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, I think it's both.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So 1st of all, going back to the window stuff.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think even if it wasn't them, I would have made those 2 changes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just was a coincidence that it was for this piece.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: None of those worked out and I don't think even

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: if it wasn't for them, I don't think I would have left any of those in.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but there was the pressure of doing this for someone else.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because one, I had to come up with a whole new archive.
Emeka Okereke: Mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like feeling like getting to know these people feeling like you want to be

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: true, you want to really capture who they are.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there is the pressure of telling someone else's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: story, which is, 0 my god, what if I forget somebody important to them?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What if they look at it and they realize like, oh, my best friend from like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: 10 years ago is not in here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there was that fear that was like hanging

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: over me the whole time.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think what it was because I will have conversations

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with my husband, like why, why am I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: struggling so much with this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Why does this feel so different?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: For instance, like if I want to figure out Where?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Let's say a jog goes in my work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I would do little drawings or I would put in Photoshop

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I would try it in different places to figure out where it goes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But if I try 10 different places and it's not working

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out, I let it go.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just, you know, it's like, sorry, Jog, you don't make it into this one.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Hopefully in another piece you'll make it in.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think what I realizes that I didn't have that luxury
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with this work.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So for instance, from the beginning, I had a list of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things for myself that I knew I absolutely wanted

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to be within the space, not as transfers.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So one of it was the Charles Alston

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the sculpture of MLK that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: President Obama had in the White House.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted it physically in the room.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think I ended up having, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: think I like 50 Separate

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: drawings, like documents of where that piece could be.

Emeka Okereke: Well.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And the reason why there were 60 is that I had, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had 3 different versions.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So if you imagine like the head.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I had like a version like this, a version more
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like this and a version more like this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So just like slightly turned a little bit slight.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then for each version, I had
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like 3 different scales, like, you know, is it like this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Is it like this, is it like this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's what 3 by 3, 9.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So now you have like 9 different versions you're trying.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, I tried it on the left

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: side of the piece right next to where he's sitting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I tried it slightly farther left.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I tried it on the other side of the table and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I tried it on the table in front.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I could not figure
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, you know where you're just like, so with each one, it's like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: 9 different times, like, doing all these versions, doing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: all these versions and I just could, it was not working anyway.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Eventually, I figured out a place for it to work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I was telling my husband, like, if that wasn't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for them, I would have just chocked that idea.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I would have just said this is not working.
Emeka Okereke: Oh, ah, okay.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I won't put this in.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I can do that because there is no 2nd version.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like if it doesn't make it into this piece, there's
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: nothing else for it to make it into, so it created a situation where

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had to work harder to make the things

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted to work work.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like I couldn't give up after version 19
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or version 25 or version 32 because
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted this thing in the work and I couldn't
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: let it go.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I eventually figured it out and we made it work

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but then later on in the composition, I ended up adding a shelf

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in the deep space.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And at some point, Sean, who works for me, Sean

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: John goes like, oh, how about moving the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the MLK head to the shelf?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And all of us at the same time, just like, no.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because we had spent like weeks.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They had seen me for weeks trying to figure this out and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it was just like, no, we are not moving in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But anyway, it was it was a whole thing.

Emeka Okereke: It's incredible because then

Emeka Okereke: now, how do you, how do you feel about

Emeka Okereke: it eventually, is this something that

Emeka Okereke: you now say, okay, I have another, you know, it's

Emeka Okereke: like a badge of honor, and I have another set

Emeka Okereke: of skills in my, in my toolbox as

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: as to how to approach art making that this
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, so for myself, again

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thinking of the pieces I consider not successful or the pieces I put away.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What I want for

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: myself with each piece is to feel like I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: tried out something or I learned something or

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I pushed myself in a different way.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, you know, one or more of those need to happen.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And if it doesn't, it's fine, but personally, I feel like.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, you want to be again, I like learning.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like to know that something, something was moved, something was moved.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it doesn't mean the peace would be more

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: successful than the stuff before, but at least I, Learn something.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I push something.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And because again, I think of working as

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a toolbox, and with each piece you add something new to your

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: toolbox, you add something new.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And with this like commission, I felt like I added a lot.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yep.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My toolbox.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: he also made me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I feel like I added a lot and it also made me realize.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't, again, it's not like I don't let myself make changes

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it made me realize that, Maybe.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The places where I would have given up before, like I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: could stay with it just a little bit.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think because I didn't have the choice of giving up.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It made me push through and really interesting things happened.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, I know I put in a lot of thoughts and time

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to my composition.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: compositions, but just also realizing like it could even be more.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Not all the time because that was a lot mentally
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but sometimes, you know.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, but this one had his own set of

Emeka Okereke: prescriptions and mandates

Emeka Okereke: which in an officer becomes part of the work, right?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.
Emeka Okereke: So, the other work will have a

Emeka Okereke: its own, is on

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: demands for its own treatment, you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: know, because the flexibility as well, leaving something out and bringing

Emeka Okereke: something else also is what that work calls for, right?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.
Emeka Okereke: So, is, wow, it's incredible.

Emeka Okereke: Now, after all of that now, I guess

Emeka Okereke: you've decompressed now, huh?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: After.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Still, still, still in the middle of it.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Emeka Okereke: And how do you feel?

Emeka Okereke: What, what do you feel as the significance

Emeka Okereke: of this moment for you, but for you, but also

Emeka Okereke: in general, eventually

Emeka Okereke: you've been able to see it in space.

Emeka Okereke: You've been able to be in the building.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You've been able to see all of the other context that surrounds the work eventually.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: So how are you feeling about it all now?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I still complicated.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt like it took me a long time to kind of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: exhale and breed and, Be

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: happy and take it all in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was like, oh, it's like artists were so hard on ourselves.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's funny because when I came in today, I saw my, I saw had like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: all my lists up on the wall from the project because the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: studio has kind of been on an extended break since more or less.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I have like a list I made maybe in February

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of the time, the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things in the world that I knew were going to be time intensive

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I wanted to make sure I got to them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, Mrs. Obama's dress

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the table ledge, the flowers and the vase

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the things on the shelf.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: anyway, I had the whole list.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And there were 2 that I didn't cross off.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I did them, but I end up, it was like I was working on it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, by the last month I was sleeping like 4

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: hours, 5 hours a night.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I did them, but I didn't quite get

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to it as I wanted.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And because I didn't kind of get to it the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: way I wanted, I fixate, that was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like the only thing I could latch onto and I couldn't step back and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: take everything in, so.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like, 0 god, how much do I reveal?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, no, no, no, no.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I was crying on pickup day because.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And my assistant was actually ask for an extra day.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it was just, I was like, I mean, I was just, I was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: also like I was exhausted.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was tired.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had lived and breeded this for almost 2 years.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then, you know, when you felt like you're so close, but you didn't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: quite, I felt like I didn't stick the landing in my mind for myself.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so my assistant, he's amazing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He was just like, should we get an extra day?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Maybe we can.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I was also like once so exhausted that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I actually, Don't know if I would have

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: been sensible if I got an extra day
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but two, I've, you know, I've

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had worked on it for so long that I actually wanted it gone

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because I felt like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My life had been overtaken with this.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like I was, I was living in the studio.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, I'm not a figure of speech.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was living here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There is a futon here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There's like a restroom here with like wardrobe

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: bat, everything.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's built for live work.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was living here.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was not involved in my family life.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like my husband will bring, like once a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: week, he'll bring a travel bag with clean clothes

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and take my dirty clothes home.
Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was going home.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, like he'll bring the kids on the weekends to see me.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I might go home like once a week.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it just felt like he had gone on for so long.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I actually felt like I want to be released from this.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I didn't want an extra day.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But that actually ended up being good.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I couldn't get.
Emeka Okereke: Okay.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think sometimes I tend to overwork things.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so that was a learning thing from this to realize we

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: actually don't have to get everything to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this particular level.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sometimes it's good to have more like rougher

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things and sometimes like having those more

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: rough things actually make the more like detailed

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things have a bigger effect.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So this thing that when it happened

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I thought was like the most horrible thing and I was so

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: distraught over it ended up being fine.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And my sister knew I was upset and so when
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she saw the piece, you know, she was like, what is the part you were upset about?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Exactly.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I posted it out.
Emeka Okereke: Where is it?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And she was just like, Njideka, you are the only
Emeka Okereke: Don't worry, that's.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: one who will know.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, she really was just like, what are you talking about?
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, oh, but can't you see, blah, blah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, like, and you know, she's honest.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She's like, I am being honest with you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nobody will know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was like, okay, okay, okay.

Emeka Okereke: And also the Obamas, you know, what was the, I

Emeka Okereke: mean, we saw a bit of their reaction, right?

Emeka Okereke: to it on, it was, it was there.

Emeka Okereke: They, you know, they

Emeka Okereke: they embraced it completely.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: No, yeah?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, but, you know, like something I'm

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I work on in my studio is to let things go and sometimes I'll

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: actually like break into the frozen song and sing it to myself

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just like trying to remind myself, like, let things go, let things go.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, I will like latch on and.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sometimes overwork things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think the deadline made me realize

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that, oh, this is something I am, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: saw as a bad thing, but it actually should be

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in my toolbox to just have
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: places you just speed through.

Emeka Okereke: So, and sometimes also, all

Emeka Okereke: of this underscores for

Emeka Okereke: all the experiences we go through is

Emeka Okereke: often to show us, you know, what

Emeka Okereke: we can, you know, what we are capable of

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: 1st of all, what we are capable of, this
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: trend, but also at the same time, show

Emeka Okereke: you know, I mean, I feel like if you have a

Emeka Okereke: commission like this next time, it's like if you're seasoned, you know?

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yes.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, I just laugh when people say like, no, no, no, no, no.
Emeka Okereke: Who knows?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Maybe Donald Trump, who come?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went great. Look at that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Look.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Absolutely not.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I went glay.
Emeka Okereke: No.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went gray in what, 6 months?

Emeka Okereke: For you?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, between January and June, I went grays.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like that's when I know you know stress makes you gray

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I actually like lived it in my life.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was like, no, no.
Emeka Okereke: This, I know that it must have been stressful

Emeka Okereke: but at the same time, this is such

Emeka Okereke: an iconic thing.

Emeka Okereke: Like, this is

Emeka Okereke: Ah, it can be overemphasized, Dan.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: I mean, anyone can say anything about the
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: center, but the symbol of it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, the symbol of it.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.
Emeka Okereke: It's
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm sorry, this ties into a question you asked.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had wanted to answer this and I forgot and I just remembered now.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mhm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But something I was talking to my sister because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she knew I was a, you know, like, she's like my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she was such a Zen person.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She called a lot during the last.
Emeka Okereke: Is it is that Ijeoma, your elder.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, the young, my younger sister Chi Chi.
Emeka Okereke: Okay. Okay.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We talked a lot towards the end and she was, because I couldn't
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: tell a lot of people.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so they were kind of like, my husband

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: my good friend, phenomenal artist, Christian Flynn, and Chi Chi knew.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So those were the people, I was kind of like bouncing ideas with

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and of course, my studio knew.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And we're like very close lipped.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We had a curtain over it, even the people who come to clean the studio

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: did not know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: till later on when it was announced.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But something I was telling her that I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like makes me happier, I think of as a big advantage

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for doing the commission is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that I'm, sorry, I might, it's going to be hard, it might be hard for

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: me to explain, but I must think of it as like, It's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's almost like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like it's not quite a map or but it shows...

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Hold on, let me try and explain.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So within my work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There are these moves I make that I don't feel.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: always come across.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Or like people see, especially if you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: don't know what the references are.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Which is fine.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew that going in and I do it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like if there's a specific parts

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in on the dining table.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You don't know it's a bulk, it means nothing to you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there, so I feel like the level of research

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I do, is not always

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: visible or readily visible.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And because the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: references are obscure for people.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think the thing I liked about this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is that it was an

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: image of 2 very known people.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And the references are quite accessible.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so it almost became like a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: work that I feel will be easy for people to interpret.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, is this making, I don't know if I'm explaining myself well.
Emeka Okereke: Mhm Mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's almost like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It may be like it's more legible.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And what I do hopefully can be clearer in this work.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like when I'm thinking of it, for instance.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So you have 2 of them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He's sitting on a desk.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a made up desk.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So you can kind of see like this thing I do where I'm using made up and heavily research.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So he's sitting on a made up desk.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but the face, the edge of the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: desk, has this like transparent

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: painting that is of the carving from the resolute

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: desk, which is the desk he used in the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oval Office when he was president.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And far as that, you have the window behind them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The window behind them is divided into three, which

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is the way the oval office windows are

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: divided, they are in sections of three.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so, you know, lots of times when we saw him in the Oval Office

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we were seeing him in front of these 3 sectioned windows

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we might not, people might not immediately recall it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But when they see that 3 section window.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's gonna scratch a memory.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This feeling of why does this feel?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Somewhat familiar?

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, why do I know this space?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know the space because it's referencing a space you've seen him

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in front of a lot.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then within outside the window is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: an image of Chicago and it's actually the street

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and specifically the house.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mrs. Obama grew up in on Euclid.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then in like, you know, there's the curtain

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: next to the window, it ended up being burgundy.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had originally thought maroon would be better, but in the studies
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: burgundy was good because when he redesigned the Oval

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Office, he had maroon curtains.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, thinking of this curtains next to the window to kind

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of like tickle that like, oh, I've seen this space then.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then in front of the curtains is Plumeria.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I've been using a lot of plants in my work because again

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thinking of borders and migration plants are such a big part of that.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Plumeria is a cosmopolitan plant and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: kind of founding all these locales

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that President Obama has existed in, I think of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it as being connected to his history.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So Indonesia, Kenya, Hawaii, and other places.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then what else?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like on the other side there's a vase on the small table.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the vase is made by

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's something from the past.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was made by a formerly enslaved person called Dave, who
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was an incredible potter.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So he's Dave the Potter.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then even the plants inside the vase are heavily

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: research, we have a whole folder on flower symbolism.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there's okra, which came over with enslaved
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: people and is now a big part of the cuisine of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: black Americans.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there's okra, there are plants from Mrs. Obama's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: kitchen gardens, so like peppers.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sorry, I don't have the work in front of me now and I'm forgetting things.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but there is a torch ginger.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think like torch ginger.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh God, I can't remember.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It almost like, I think it's maybe from originally from Indonesia

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it's now naturalized in Kenya

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and then there's like a, there was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a special kind of hibiscus.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can't remember.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sorry, I haven't looked at all this research in a while.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but there's a, is going to come back to me

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it's a specific hibiscus that is from, East

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: African, Kenya, but is now acculturated

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in Hawaii.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think there are other things, but I can't remember

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm trying to think of what else.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There's the MLK sculpture.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We've talked about it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So for me, my mind thinking of this

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: move in time from an enslaved person to MLK
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to the Obamas in the White House.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This kind of move of history.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then, oh, on the other side, there's, yes.
Emeka Okereke: And crossings.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then on the other side of him, there's like his Nobel Peace Prizes open.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There is a paper on the table, that is the Harvard Law Review.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And this is a part where it's like nobody's ever going to know this or
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: notice it, but it's actually the particular copy that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is depicted, even though they all look alike, is the very 1st

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: edition from when he was president of the Harvard Law Review.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then, in the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in the cabinet, in the back or not the cabinet

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the bookcase in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the back is like the top 2 rows are books and it's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: some of their favorite books that they've talked about.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in different places over time.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And at the very top is an Emmy, he's won

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: an Emmy, there's a picture of their kids.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there's a basketball that was gifted to him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Basketball is a big part of his life, and the pattern around

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the frame of the kids is actually

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a pattern from a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Curtain that we saw in one of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the pictures Mrs. Obama posted on like Facebook

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that is from a Christmas from when she was a child.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I don't know if that was her house

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or her aunt's house because they lived upstairs.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Her aunts live downstairs, but that curtain is from

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: somewhere in that house.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So we found the pattern and put it on the frame.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then I think there's like a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a shelf with their Grammys, because between the 2

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of them, they won 4 Grammys, and then

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there is a framed program from MLK's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: March on Washington, which is when he gave that famous I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: have a dream speech, and President Obama had that same

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: frame program in the Oval Office when he was there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, it's like, This is the level

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of research and detail and connections

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I bring into a lot of my works
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: feel like it's not

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like, unless I tell you, it's had to piece
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it all together, but I feel like with this one.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People are able to.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't.
Emeka Okereke: So you think that this work now sort

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: of like brings your process, really
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it makes it more visible.
Emeka Okereke: into the everyday, everyday person, because
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Yes.

Emeka Okereke: those people who are going to kids are going to come frequent there

Emeka Okereke: and everyone from Chicago as well, who know the story

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: many of them, who have to pass, come through there.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Exactly, exactly.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So it feels like it brings you.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, well, in.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, so, you know, I'm thinking of, say, the wedding dress

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: piece, which I love, again, I love research.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like my fun thing.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but sometimes I feel like that there's all this research is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, things I figure out and put in the work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And, It's like they

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can't be decoded because they're from somewhere else.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's, I mean, like 1st Nigerians can decode it, which is why

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like I love conversations with Nigerians in front of the work.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a whole different thing.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so for me, it feels, I am grateful to have

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a work, that has elements

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that can be more easily decoded

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for people who live here.

Emeka Okereke: It's incredible.

Emeka Okereke: And I wonder if that's, you know, again

Emeka Okereke: with, yeah, now we're talking about that tension between

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: transparency and opacity as well, right?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: I wonder if it is always necessary to decode it

Emeka Okereke: as, Or

Emeka Okereke: is it that the fact that you are even making those associations

Emeka Okereke: with, will over time, become like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, that's why I was saying, I've been thinking of this class on iconology

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and iconography.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ah, sorry, Michael Cothren, if I'm not saying it right.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because some of the, meanings

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of certain things have been lost in time, and not a lot have not.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But just realizing like even if you don't know them, you still

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: enjoy the works, but when you do know them.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like this whole other, layer of stuff.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was thinking making the work I was thinking a lot of this painting
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in the national gallery in London called The Ambassadors.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, please, I'm not saying this is near it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The Ambassadors is phenomenal, but just
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: going and looking through it and it's just like chock full of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: symbols and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, just this realization of like, oh, this is kind of what I'm doing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: where you're like putting all these things that carry different

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: meanings and you're kind of thinking of how they

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are connected and how you're weaving together a story.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It adds other layers to the work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But as I'm making the work and I'm working on the composition, those

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are almost like, You know how like you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: hide little, what do they call those like Easter eggs?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yes, yes.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because I'm also just trying to make a work that stands

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: on his own because that's what I've learned to do.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like if you don't have known nothing about Nigeria

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can you still enjoy this work, if you can't code
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: any of that stuff in it?
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so.
Emeka Okereke: At least, can you take you so to some poetic place where you can?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Exactly. Well, it's like I don't know the specifics of this, but I have a feeling

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: kind of stuff.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so it was, I was also thinking of that with this
Emeka Okereke: You, so.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it was harder again because I didn't see the whole thing come

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: together till very late.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I think the thing that kept worrying me is, because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: even like the deep space was not done till like, 2

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: weeks before pickup, that whole place was white.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so it was this feeling of, oh, what if everything

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, it's like you're putting little pieces of a puzzle.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I usually put

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: everything together, maybe, 30

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like way back and then I start saying, okay, does

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this go and I start shifting things, but this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I almost have to go on faith, like, everything is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: going to come together, like the last piece will be put in last

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: minute, and if I step back and look at it and it's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: not working, I will not have time.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to make any adjustments.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that really was freaking me out.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also making me make sure like I really thought

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: through everything before I put it in because it's like, if
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this goes, I probably cannot.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: If this goes in, I cannot move it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just I will not have time to move it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that, Yeah, that was something.

Emeka Okereke: It seems to me that your process is living a

Emeka Okereke: space for, Like

Emeka Okereke: the possibility of reading your work in a sudden way.

Emeka Okereke: Down the line, right?

Emeka Okereke: Right now, we are seeing your work

Emeka Okereke: being appreciated in the mainstream.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah?

Emeka Okereke: But then there is this other aspect that your process

Emeka Okereke: as you're going through it, that is opening up, you

Emeka Okereke: know, to go, especially because you reference

Emeka Okereke: it as well as one of the things, things that really got

Emeka Okereke: you into art, is when you began to see the many associations

Emeka Okereke: that could be made, right?

Emeka Okereke: and the conversations that they can, and then you're trying to be part of that movement as well.

Emeka Okereke: you know, crossings back and forth and of our time.

Emeka Okereke: I feel like your work will, even the way you're going with your

Emeka Okereke: process, meticulously, and even the way the actual doing it, is

Emeka Okereke: preparing that space for a real appreciation

Emeka Okereke: of that down the line.

Emeka Okereke: But right now, it is making, it has

Emeka Okereke: its place, it's on, in the mainstream.

Emeka Okereke: So I wonder sometimes if you see a tension between these 2

Emeka Okereke: ways of appreciating your work, one is the mainstream

Emeka Okereke: appreciation of it, you know, reading it as this

Emeka Okereke: you know, very articulated, you know

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: proposal from you know, understands on his own.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: But then there's this other aspect, which is

Emeka Okereke: what you are doing is, from this

Emeka Okereke: other angle is what many, very

Emeka Okereke: few Africans actually can succeed in when you

Emeka Okereke: want to play with that icons, those icons without

Emeka Okereke: feticizing it.

Emeka Okereke: You know, without falling prey

Emeka Okereke: to the romanticization of it, you know, or splashing colors everywhere.

Emeka Okereke: You know, that's really usually, that's, that's usually what

Emeka Okereke: we see when some African artists

Emeka Okereke: want to go into that grabbing the Ankara

Emeka Okereke: patterns and all of that.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: But in your work, it is you

Emeka Okereke: it's almost as if you see all of that and you

Emeka Okereke: you are considering those in your, in

Emeka Okereke: in, and so they become not just the aesthetics of

Emeka Okereke: it, but also the ethics of the work.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, it's a.

Emeka Okereke: So I wonder if.

Emeka Okereke: You see a certain kind of tension in ways that your work, your work is received.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, I'm going to try for an answer.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Please let me know if I don't answer, if I don't answer, If

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't answer the question, because I'm still kind of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: trying to process the question for myself.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I also want to make sure I don't disparage any artists because
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have love for all my African

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, artists of the, from the continent working

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just the choosing to be an artist is an

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: incredible choice and brave because
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there's a lot of pushback.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think for me, the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thing that has helped is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and sometimes I do find myself thinking, oh, is this maybe limiting

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, we all have things we worry about and think about.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I try to ground things

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in what I know and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in what I've experienced, is that whole like you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: write what you know, but then sometimes I think, oh, but isn't that limiting?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There are people who write things, they don't know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People write fantasies about middle earth and there's no middle earth.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like am I limiting myself?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think for me, it makes me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Feel like I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can stand for what I'm doing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like I can stand behind it and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, I can defend it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, if, if, if, it's like, I know this is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: true because I've experienced this or I know this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is how it is because I've lived it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I'm going to use an example and then we'll see if

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: maybe you take a pass on if you want to rephrase the question.

Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But for instance, when I was in graduate school, my 1st year.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew that I was thinking about

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Lagos, Nigeria, more specifically Lagos

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: as a very cosmopolitan place.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And a cosmopolitanism that really wasn't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: seen or talked about where

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was in the United States.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, you know, I just felt there was this like beauty and vibrancy.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It has its own issues.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We can like talk about all that, but there is this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: part of it that is exciting

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that is always muffin, that is always on the move.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like Lagos buzzes.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I wanted to talk about that, just this kind of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: clash between how a place is perceived

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and how a place really is.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I was seeing aspects of that in Wangechi's work.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so when I 1st started tying with the idea

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was kind of, you know, it's like how you walk through a thought process.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was walking through the ideas quickly and what I was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: doing and this is again, I loved Wangechi so much.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I almost there.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know how you start like making work similar to the person you like.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was making these collages that were very one one.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I got, somebody had gifted me one of
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: those like African books, that is like national geographic

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: photos, and I had like all magazines

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like vogue and vanity, whatever they are

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: high, high fashion magazines.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I will look through both and find like one

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: picture from the other and cut and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: collage it in such a way that it's like a seamless match.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it would be like, this ball

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: gown, but the head coming out from it is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, some, you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: know, like, sorry, like poets, tribal, African

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: person with paint.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I was doing those and like looking back on those

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, they're not online, but I have them, whereas like they
Emeka Okereke: Mm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: were not successful works, but they kind of were the beginnings

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of something I was interested in.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was like the easiest way I could get to it before it got more complicated.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think what kind of, Brought

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: me up short was I was having a studio visit once and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had like one of those collages and we're talking about it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And the professor asked me like, where

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, kind of like, who are these people?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I realized I didn't even know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't know what part of the continent they came from.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't know who this is like, you're critiquing something

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and you are part of it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, this kind of flattening and I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and that was, I think, when I realized I wanted to lean into

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: specificity.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, why are you using this generic African
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: pictures, like, you know, the relationship

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you have to Nigeria, mind that.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's when I really started pulling pictures from like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the Nigerian magazines I got when I went home, the pictures

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I took, the pictures from Nigerian newspapers

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the pictures from my friends, this feeling of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I want to be able to talk

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: about every image I have.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, I want to know what it is.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't want to ever somebody be like, what is this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, I don't know.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And kind of that's where I've been, this feeling of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I can look through every work and tell you something

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: about every picture.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, like this is the album cover from.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, and that's what makes the work fascinating. Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, Onyeka Onwenu, this is a picture I took when she came
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to a house in the village.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This is Bianca Onoh after she won this.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This is this person.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This is Ojukwu's funeral, this, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for me that, that was just a way to make sure that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wasn't, I wasn't like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, there's like a flattening or generalizing that
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: happens when people talk about the continent that was a way for me that I fought it.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It's funny because Sorry, it's funny.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So even when I So even when I have pictures of

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Orgelian stuff, I took those.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Or like, I know the person blowing your jar as
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a, he's a friend of mine, you know.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emeka Okereke: It's amazing.

Emeka Okereke: One would think that, you know, with, you know, marginalization

Emeka Okereke: then it is more accessible, right?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: But it's the other way around, actually.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: The more specific you are to the story, the more it

Emeka Okereke: connects to the collective, the more the subjective is emphasized

Emeka Okereke: the more the collective is drawn in.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, and that's, sorry, keep interrupted.
Emeka Okereke: So... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm sorry. No, I only said that's actually what brought me to portrait fabrics

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: which is like, again, I love Ankara.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a big part of growing up in Nigeria.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My grandmother would.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My mother, you know, my mom, she always won Ankara.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was like a uniform.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so again, when I was thinking of, okay, but how do I use this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: How is it mine?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I realize like my connection or my experience

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of ancara, a lot is actually 2 portrait fabrics

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and that's kind of how portrait fabrics came into my work

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and that actually ended up being something that enriched it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it didn't just stay in Ankara.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But, it was like this next step.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also like using portrait fabric

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it opened up the conversation or

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the content of the work because it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's talking about global trade and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: global commerce.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, you know, Vlisco is produced in Europe.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's, we still import it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a big part of identity, but it's not of us.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But then there is this next part, which is portrait

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: fabrics, which is in taking this method

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of printing patterns on fabrics and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: making this little shift, which is putting portrait

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in it to commemorate weddings.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think it was done when the queen visited, various African countries

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: doing it for burials.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have one for Father Tansi’s, beatification.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But in this one little step that has was done to that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Method of mechanical production, something different

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was created that is now is unique

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to the continent, and that felt

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: really tied to what I'm interested in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this like, working from, history

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and technique of painting that is, Came

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to me or came to PAFA and eventually to me through European

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: academies, but my using it and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: finding that like something different

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that I do to it, that one little move that
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then leads into it, leads it into something

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: else that is now mine.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think a lot about inherited traditions, how we
Emeka Okereke: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: inherited tradition and then make it into

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: ours and take ownership of it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, thinking of things like Afrobeats coming from rap
Emeka Okereke: Exactly.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and reggaeton, but it's been changed.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: It's been changed.

Emeka Okereke: It has been changed.

Emeka Okereke: It's so fascinating, this idea of like making it yours

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: because that's actually where the whole thing
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Emeka Okereke: that's actually the, you know, the

Emeka Okereke: finding its own strand happens, which

Emeka Okereke: is really what this, the, you often

Emeka Okereke: talk about, the 3rd space.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: you know, in your work.

Emeka Okereke: But that thought space is not a generalized space actually.

Emeka Okereke: Because if he's in our lives, then it's the same

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: thing as, you know, the old.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: It's the same as the old.

Emeka Okereke: So the thought space cannot be generalized.

Emeka Okereke: It has to be specific.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: So, and, we could even

Emeka Okereke: say that, between 1st century is the century

Emeka Okereke: of finding that thought space.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: That specificity of it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: That is actually what connects all of us.

Emeka Okereke: In all of this, and it's, and

Emeka Okereke: when, in your work, I'm seeing that that's actually what makes it so fascinating

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: and it, and it feels like a journey, you know, each and
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, God.
Emeka Okereke: every one of them, you know, it feels like a journey.

Emeka Okereke: And I love the fact that you are able to sort of like do this and

Emeka Okereke: is holding its own also in the mainstream.

Emeka Okereke: Because the thing is, mainstream is

Emeka Okereke: is what it is, right?

Emeka Okereke: It has is his own beast.

Emeka Okereke: But if the work can hold its own in

Emeka Okereke: that, at history, and all the

Emeka Okereke: references it makes, and if it continues

Emeka Okereke: to create that space, to really look other work from that place.

Emeka Okereke: Then for me, I feel like, yes, it

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: is really moving forward, it is moving us forward.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, thank you.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That comment means a lot to me because when I plan the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: work and when I'm working on the composition, I'm making it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I am thinking of like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: journey, cinema in my head.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm always thinking of like, when you walk in, how do you approach it?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: How does it change when yes, it's interesting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I, you know, I hired 3 extra people to work on this.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think it was so fascinating for them because I'm

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like talking to them about what I want and I think it was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: fun to see them, like they're like, 0 god, this is all you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: think about when you work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like, yes, I do consider all this.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like for the books on the shelf.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had this incredible illustrator, Bijou, come help me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She has very steady hands and she did the spines and the text.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And sometimes she'll do this text and it looks beautiful and I'll just

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: be like, no, you have to knock it down.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I had to explain, like, I, like, actually walk out, be like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I do not want the viewer to see it until they

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are right here.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it would be maybe like 3 feet in front of the work.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And some I'll say, like, I don't want people to notice this
Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: until they are right here.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't want people to notice it until they are right here.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then you're, because I want, I wanted to do this.
Emeka Okereke: Credit look.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't want a job, like sometimes like when you're
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this far away, you see that book.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: When you move over, you see this one, when you come closer, you see that one
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and there are things you're not going to see it, or you're like, literally, like
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this close.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And there's a text on the card that you really will not see.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like your face.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And even like the chain link fence in
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: front of the house is like you have to be this close to see it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there is, it's like, it's like your body

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: becomes part of the experience of the work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, I'm thinking of this like the way the work affects your body.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So as you come closer, move back, different things are doing this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But then I'm also thinking of, and it's not just the Obama works, it's for everything I do.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but and that's why it's like, oh, I like it when people say my work

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: online, but I really want them to stand in front of it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because it's like it's made for you to be in front of it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also I'm thinking of how you see

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it across.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think of cinematic.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I did this show once that the, it was a group show

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Isaac Julien, I think it was Isaac Julien curated it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I think the title was Cinematic Visions.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, oh, I love this.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I love this, and I'm so honored, they asked me to be in it because I do

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: think of that when I make the work, just like looking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: through it and it's taking you on a journey.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And that's why like even things like when I transfer the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: way I'm always moving the work so it feels dynamic
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so you kind of like your mind is always like, mm, mm
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: mm, oh, this, so it's like the way you move through

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but then also creating this shifts in the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: languages of not just languages of painting, but languages of image making.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, you know, like, sorry, there's a particular piece
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in my head, but it's like you're looking at a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: screen wall, transferred with images from

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nigeria, then you move a little bit and you're looking at

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like a flat paint painted area that speaks to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a painting done by someone like Peter

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Halley, who was the dean when I was in grad school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then you move and you're looking at the head of a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: girl that is painted in a way that speaks to Northern Renaissance

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: art, and then you move a little bit and you're looking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: at a table that is my grandmother's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: table in the village, you know, with the plastic balls

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and the thermos flask and the kerosene lamp

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and then you move and you're seeing like more pictures

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: from another era, and you move and you're seeing like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a more loose paintings.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So you're really like, as as

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you move, you're doing jumps in place

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like you're going from photos to the internal

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: space, you're doing jumps in time, and even within

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the photos, you're doing jumps in time, you're doing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: jumps in ways

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: images are created, and you're also doing these jumps in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the different types, like the different.

Emeka Okereke: And also, in the treatment of the surface as well.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It's.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And sometimes like places might be rolled on, so they have a
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: different day activate like your eyes in a different way, and
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then you move over and it might be like painted with a brush

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: which kind of does something else to your mind, and then you look

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: somewhere else and it might be like painted with

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it, crushed, steel mixed into it, so it has a little

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: bit of like a sparkling texture.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's this thing where you are

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you're kind of, like, Constantly.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know how to explain it's like a day, I mean.
Emeka Okereke: Is making you, is

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: orienting you, is making you change positions, move around it.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Emeka Okereke: Move.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And
Emeka Okereke: Which is what that journey is.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: is that distance, always negotiating distance between.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: And, again

Emeka Okereke: I thought about when the 1st century is, I

Emeka Okereke: was, I was speaking to someone that I say.

Emeka Okereke: Our preoccupation in 21st century is to We

Emeka Okereke: learn what that distance between the self and the other is.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think that's why it works, because even if you don't know

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the photos, the fact that you're having this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: feeling and it's like the thing that it's doing within

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you, we all understand it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We all know it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We've all lived it in some way.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Emeka Okereke: So that's so like what is asking that question over and over?

Emeka Okereke: What is actually intimacy?

Emeka Okereke: What is the language of it?

Emeka Okereke: You know, and how does it become embodied?

Emeka Okereke: How do you move with it?

Emeka Okereke: How do you come closer to it?

Emeka Okereke: You know, it's incredible.

Emeka Okereke: yeah.

Emeka Okereke: And this is a level where like, okay, we, this

Emeka Okereke: work has to be spoken about in this because I see when

Emeka Okereke: you are working on those.

Emeka Okereke: It's really like that, that's what the journey is.

Emeka Okereke: That's what that's what immediately.

Emeka Okereke: I think it's, is the consequence

Emeka Okereke: of having this mindset of crossing borders

Emeka Okereke: because every time a border is crossed.

Emeka Okereke: Paradox is the natural order.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Like you had to play.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's why I was drunk to your work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt the connection.

Emeka Okereke: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: Paradox is a natural order.

Emeka Okereke: So there's no way you cross that line that you don't have to play with contradictions

Emeka Okereke: and distances and try to play with it.

Emeka Okereke: And that is so fascinating our time.

Emeka Okereke: This is something that we, coming from the

Emeka Okereke: African continent and moving, are really going to gift

Emeka Okereke: the world in our time, really strongly.

Emeka Okereke: because before that, you had that, the likes

Emeka Okereke: of

Emeka Okereke: James Baldwin, Toni Morrison

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: all of them, they were actually creating the space for
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: that commission to happen, you know?

Emeka Okereke: The city, you know, this is, you know, this

Emeka Okereke: is about shifting things and moving, you know, aha.

Emeka Okereke: But now those who are really going to now inject

Emeka Okereke: into that, you know.

Emeka Okereke: Aha.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: This is this is what that work is now.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm.

Emeka Okereke: is incredible.

Emeka Okereke: Fascinating.

Emeka Okereke: It's been wonderful to have this conversation with you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, it's such a pleasure talking to you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, I left Nigeria in like 05

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and then I came back again for 6 months, but then I was just coming back

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for weeks here and there, but in 2012

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I came back and stayed for a while and that's when I heard of Invisible Borders.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But my sister was living in Lagos.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because then I grew up in Enugu.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like I'm not, I don't know if Bobbler
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was a slang where you went.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if it was a QC slang, bobbler.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No?
Emeka Okereke: No.

Emeka Okereke: No.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: No.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: yeah, but like a Lagosian, like a cool Lagosian

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, like they jammed and they have satellite dishes.
Emeka Okereke: Oh.

Emeka Okereke: Mm, mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, but I wasn't that,.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So even though I went to school in Lagos.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I never felt plugging to Lagos and that culture.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But in 2012, I came back to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nigeria and stayed in Lagos because normally

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: even when I come back, I go to Abuja, I go to Enugu.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I stayed in Lagos because my sister, Chi Chi

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was living there, and because she was living there, she got

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: plugged into like the Lagos scene.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I ended up having that Lagos experience, but
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went to like Jazzhole
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Bogobiri.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for people don't know, this is kind of like the culture

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: makers of Lego.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, exactly.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's when I heard about, like you were, very
Emeka Okereke: Ah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: your work was very much part of that conversation.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I met, like, a Amaka Osakwe
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: who used to have Maki Oh, incredible fashion brand.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, that was a different Nigeria too.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like every time I come back, you are meeting a different country.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, and it's, yeah, it's

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: it's moving forward, it's going
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Or changes.

Emeka Okereke: I feel like it's taking a different shape now that we have social

Emeka Okereke: media and everything is getting modeled up and everything.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yes, but it's still moving.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know.

Emeka Okereke: It's still moving on its, on its own.

Emeka Okereke: And that's why when I look at your work and use like going

Emeka Okereke: deep into some of these.

Emeka Okereke: I mean, you don't have to say that you are not, you didn't come from like that

Emeka Okereke: bourgeoisie because even the way you, the things you work like

Emeka Okereke: you know, the pick milk and the sugar and the table, those things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I kind of do, but again, even within Nigeria, it's mixed

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because again, we didn't start off there, but towards the end
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we kind of were, but I also used to live in the village.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, like even within Nigeria, there's that kind of like sampling
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of different spaces.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Is a middle class is a classic middle class reality, you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It is.

Emeka Okereke: know, which which is basically, I mean, look at your parents now.

Emeka Okereke: That's, they, are they, quitessential middle class

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you know, they could now decide to say like us
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: it is built on, you know, having, you

Emeka Okereke: know, very being, not having excesses, we have, you

Emeka Okereke: know, a lot of fortright Igbo families are like that where they

Emeka Okereke: don't blow their horns, they focus on doing the work

Emeka Okereke: and raising their children to be able to make do with

Emeka Okereke: very little and put all of that energy in

Emeka Okereke: in hard work and excellence, you know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: that's that's very normal from from the Igbo side

Emeka Okereke: that I know, you know.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: in my school at Marist Brothers Juniorate.

Emeka Okereke: The kids there were all, you know, like that, you know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh

Emeka Okereke: They came there for that.

Emeka Okereke: I remember that Yul Edochie.

Emeka Okereke: The filmmaker now was in my class.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: the son of Pete, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Related to Pete?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Well, I'm the same class.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, he always makes it, he makes it into my work a lot because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: he's Okonkwo.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I said, no matter how many times I see him, I'm like, oh, come on.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, I.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, you know, so, and I'm like, you know, I remember
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.

Emeka Okereke: like the grilling, you know, it wasn't so much about excesses.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It's about having, you know, children who are
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: excellent in what they do, but very, very curtailed

Emeka Okereke: in the spending, and then, you know, they don't spare

Emeka Okereke: you must have that experience.

Emeka Okereke: I come back home, you still play football on the street.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.
Emeka Okereke: You still, we still go every weekend to our farm
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: to farm, and to bring, to bring Casava out of the ground.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We had a yam fan, and Casava fan behind our house

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like we words.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then we did corn.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: So, so you, looking at your work, reminds

Emeka Okereke: me of that sort of like that mixed, the middle plus

Emeka Okereke: especially of the Igbos, one not, that

Emeka Okereke: sort of like, all be all up, up there.

Emeka Okereke: There is, there is always, it was completely

Emeka Okereke: a mix.

Emeka Okereke: You know, I would I would go to my, you know, dormitory

Emeka Okereke: school, but when I come back

Emeka Okereke: There's no washing machine at home.

Emeka Okereke: You have to wash your clothes yourself.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You have to do.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I love washing clothes.

Emeka Okereke: Exactly.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was one of my favorite days.
Emeka Okereke: You

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and you sit with a bucket in front of you.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: You know?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I loved watching.
Emeka Okereke: And, Candles, my

Emeka Okereke: father was a candle maker, so, you

Emeka Okereke: know, we had, you know, candles everywhere, but then

Emeka Okereke: the NEPA go off, then candles will light off the whole place.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It become like a, like a, like a, like a church because we actually
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: have all the candles.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: But then we light on the whole place.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: with candles.

Emeka Okereke: There's no, you know, so there's also this mix.

Emeka Okereke: And what I find fascinating in the

Emeka Okereke: work is that you're not just throwing out all of this because it looks cool.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You are actually digging into that, those reference.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes. So exactly. That's what I mean.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like that's what I was getting at, like, people can see that these are not random.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like when I put a kerosene lamp in something.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's not because structurally, it's fine.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like, I'm using these objects that carry.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: A lot for the people who know it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So if you see a kerosene lamp, you're thinking of NEPA, you're
Emeka Okereke: Yes. Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thinking of the way infrastructure degraded

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in Nigeria over time, because I'm old enough to remember when NEPA
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I remember when taking light was a

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: rare thing, and then it got worse and worse and worse till
Emeka Okereke: Maybe.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: when having light was the right thing, and then everybody had a generation.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So when you have the kerosene lamp, it's carrying all that.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's carrying like what happened with the Babangida
Emeka Okereke: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: regime, with a batcher, with sap.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so it's not just, Like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: oh, this lamp looks nice.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I feel like people don't always realize that.
Emeka Okereke: No. No.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think that's why I was thinking I like that this piece will

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: make people realize just how much thought and research goes

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: into every single thing in the space.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it's interesting, like you mentioned, Pete Edochie, because he's someone

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will use in certain words, I've transferred him before.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, but he's someone we all recognize, but you don't just, he's
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, one, you recognize him, but it's like, at least for me, he's

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a kong ko, and then that, it's like, he just, there are
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: all these things that ride on the pictures I use.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like each picture opens up a different conversation.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I mentioned the, for instance, like the doll

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the doll baby, toys, which I think I've used
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in 2 works right now, but those were the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: toys we used to use when we were young.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I was trying to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I started researching on it because I just assumed it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was produced somewhere outside Nigeria and then came to us.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And as I start researching it, they're called Clonette

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: dolls, just finding out that they're actually, like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: made on in West Africa.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But they have an even more interesting history in that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: they were made to be an updated version

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of the Ghanaian akuaba dolls.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So they're kind of like referencing this old wooden dolls

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but now they are made in plastic, but they are of a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Caucasian girl holding like a teddy bear and a daisy

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: which is not of us, but it's what we all played with because they were cheap.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But then also it has this history

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and life that continues.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They are still being made.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but like the last time I went to the market and I was trying to find it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I couldn't find it anyway.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People were just like, oh, we've not seen that in the market in years.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I ended up buying some.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have some, but I ended up buying it from a store

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in Berlin.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because it's now in a very big, like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: interior design object in certain circles
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in Europe, so now they don't even sell it in the, on the continent anymore.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Wow, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's again like when I have that object in the space.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: One, it looks good, but I'm also thinking of the history, this

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: carries, the conversation about global trade
Emeka Okereke: Yes, yes.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and like how things move and
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: culture and markets.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, like every little thing is like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: has all these things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: other things riding on it and sometimes I feel like, oh

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: those don't always come across, but someday.

Emeka Okereke: And then constantly emphasizing that

Emeka Okereke: this post-colonial reality we speak of is not something that

Emeka Okereke: is happening outside modernity, you know

Emeka Okereke: like they like to make it, oh, is

Emeka Okereke: is the preoccupation of those who are colonized.

Emeka Okereke: It's a global condition.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.
Emeka Okereke: Frantz Fanon calls it a double bind between the colonized and the colonized, intertwined.

Emeka Okereke: And so the colonial or the post-colonial

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: is all of those things entering again into
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: the, into

Emeka Okereke: modernity because they were put aside, it

Emeka Okereke: was happening in the sidelines, you know, but

Emeka Okereke: now they are entering again and complicating that image.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And telling you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh

Emeka Okereke: know, this is, it has always been there, but now we are showing you

Emeka Okereke: this is actually, what?

Emeka Okereke: The post-colonia looks like.

Emeka Okereke: when it is allowed to really enter.

Emeka Okereke: As as you should be into modernity.

Emeka Okereke: And that cannot, there can't be any postmodem

Emeka Okereke: proposition without that.

Emeka Okereke: You cannot move into the postmodem.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: If that doesn't happen.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: That would be another recreation of that fantasy of.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, so a real moving into postmodem

Emeka Okereke: that complication, that's, you know, like.

Emeka Okereke: That thought space must really resolve

Emeka Okereke: itself completely, and people must really, it must become part of everyday reality, you know.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, that's why I feel like that's.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: This century is that is that time for that, is really that time for that.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: This is this is for me where your work.

Emeka Okereke: same condition I had with John Akomfrah.

Emeka Okereke: same conversation I had with, you know, Otobong

Emeka Okereke: Nkanga, you know, saying, every, the same

Emeka Okereke: everyone is doing that same.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, we all stuck in the same pool.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I keep thinking that, like, we are even across different genres
Emeka Okereke: Yes. Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like fashion, literature, arts
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mhm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sound arts, photos, sculpture
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: installation, we really are, because we're all living in the same world and the
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the things we all seen.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's the same.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think it was all like Emeka, the other Emeka.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: The, is it the
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sound.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Emeka Okereke: sound, the sound artist? Yes.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I love, love that one.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, exactly.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And so now, there's also
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: those behind listening.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: And watch it.

Emeka Okereke: I can already see some young artists

Emeka Okereke: you know, making artwork that looks like almost like yours.

Emeka Okereke: You know?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: so they say imitation is the best form of flattery.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it's an honor.
Emeka Okereke: So.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went through my Wangechi phase.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went through my Kerry phase.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went through my Mickalene phase.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sometimes you have to go through that and then you start to ask, okay

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but how is my interest different from that person?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And eventually you push away.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emeka Okereke: So, so I, it's something that is, but

Emeka Okereke: it was most important is that

Emeka Okereke: What is going on in the work is very much understood

Emeka Okereke: you know, Like

Emeka Okereke: you know, profoundly because

Emeka Okereke: Because that's actually what needs to be what needs to pass on, you

Emeka Okereke: know, when you understand it, then there is no imitation

Emeka Okereke: is redundant.

Emeka Okereke: If you understand something, you know.

Emeka Okereke: So, you can you can create your own.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: but yeah.

Emeka Okereke: It's been wonderful.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, this has been so lovely.
Emeka Okereke: I think.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm sorry, I wanted to turn, turn the, sorry, put

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: attention on you a bit, but I was almost, I'm sitting here

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thinking of, when I 1st saw Jewel by Lisa

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and how you, I was having this thought.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, why is nobody doing this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then I saw somebody doing it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I also not always, but I always had this thought of like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: why don't we travel within the continent?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I really don't.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if that much is changing.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Now you hear a lot of people going to Ghana, but growing up, it
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: really was not common.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt like I remember in QC, this one person for the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: summer went to Ivory Coast and we all kind of looked like, why did

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she go to Ivory Coast?
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it was so fascinating for me when I heard about

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Invisible Borders?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And again, it was just like learning that somebody had

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: taken up this question I had kind of had at the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: back of my mind for a while, like, why do
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: people not travel across?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like around the continent.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that was just, So fascinating.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think my question is, do you have any trips planned in future

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or is that on ice for now?

Emeka Okereke: We, as we speak.

Emeka Okereke: we are planning the 11th edition

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: of the road trip, starting, it's going to start in November, this November.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: We are, we are moving from Morocco to Nigeria.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Wow, no.

Emeka Okereke: So, I mean, the middle of playing all of that while I'm doing this too.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my goodness.
Emeka Okereke: So.

Emeka Okereke: So, yeah, that's the one, that's the next one coming and

Emeka Okereke: and it's, I'm looking forward to it.

Emeka Okereke: It's 11th edition.

Emeka Okereke: And all of this is basically 1st and foremost for us to see ourselves.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: You know, in your work also, that's what we are

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: looking to see ourselves because there's always been this intermediary.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.
Emeka Okereke: You know, that's also what barack woman is talking about, you know, I decide.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: You know, that's what every black person is actually reaching for.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: How can we see ourselves?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: You know?

Emeka Okereke: And so the road trips is a space of encounter.

Emeka Okereke: But really develop the vocabulary to actually look at ourselves.

Emeka Okereke: Your work is doing that.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: If I look at your work, I see that, you know, I see myself.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have titles that reference that.
Emeka Okereke: But I also see.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I have one that is like home as you see me and then there's one is like
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: about how I see me and yeah, but I'm not in
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. So, Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: here like, yep, yep, yep.

Emeka Okereke: That that mirroing needs to happen.

Emeka Okereke: I, people might just say, oh, it is happening

Emeka Okereke: of course, in the work that we're making, but no, it begs

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: for a kind of aesthetic to it.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm.

Emeka Okereke: It begs for a kind of treatment of that scene.

Emeka Okereke: You have to play with it.

Emeka Okereke: You have to, you have

Emeka Okereke: to acknowledge all of the paradox and contradictions

Emeka Okereke: that make up, The reality

Emeka Okereke: of the black person that is that is on the move.

Emeka Okereke: Because that black body is always stopped.

Emeka Okereke: As he wants to move.

Emeka Okereke: And so the only way it can keep moving is to accommodate

Emeka Okereke: all the contradictions and actually incorporate it into its movement

Emeka Okereke: and, you know, show it.

Emeka Okereke: So, when I see that work and say, yeah, all of these considerations

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you're making, those research bring in here and them like, yes, that
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm.

Emeka Okereke: is actually bringing all of those moving parts into

Emeka Okereke: the conversation as opposed to, say, oh, this will stop me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: From moving, but I bring it into.

Emeka Okereke: And I've, I've, I've even heard some interview, you talk about like

Emeka Okereke: I am not, you know, some, what I'm doing is

Emeka Okereke: Other people bring cultures from Nigeria to America.

Emeka Okereke: You know, and Also

Emeka Okereke: people take from, from, from

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Nigeria, you know, and some people might call it appropriation.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So why can't I not take from American American
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm, mm.
Emeka Okereke: history, American reality, I have lived it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It is, yes, I have, I am, remember, you know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I've lived it for decades.

Emeka Okereke: So, these are all of these considerations, and

Emeka Okereke: I feel like there is, this is also, I discussed with

Emeka Okereke: John, I confront during our podcast, it's like, there

Emeka Okereke: is no one image.

Emeka Okereke: This is something we have to be.

Emeka Okereke: You know, is a pitfall to think of it as one image that will resolve it all.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: But the very exploration, the
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: the journey itself, the process, is the thing itself.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: the art world does not.

Emeka Okereke: You know, accept that so much.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: But that also will

Emeka Okereke: change at world.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It will change at world in our time.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Of course, yeah.
Emeka Okereke: Really?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so the final, sorry, the final question I have about

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the trip as I'm listening is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I remember you saying that something you found

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out in some of your earlier trips is how even

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things like the roads and the highways.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know how sometimes like things you experience and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you're living through speak to the history of the space

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so the highways and the countries that are connected
Emeka Okereke: Mm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: speak to like how the continent was divided up.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So Ghana is very connected to Nigeria.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like an easy road because the British own both countries.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So when you're going from Morocco to Nigeria, is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there a Clare Road that runs through those?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Are you having to do a weird jigsaw

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: road, are you putting together?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if I'm explaining this well, are you put in, because the 2 countries
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, there's a clear road, but it runs in the coast.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are multi-connected.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: When you come inland now, you have to be now mindful
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Emeka Okereke: because all of those policies happening in Burkina Faso

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mali and Niger is breaking up the whole thing now
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm, okay.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: because of course, you know, they want to break away from ecoas and
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: and form their own.

Emeka Okereke: So that is creating a, Making us have a detour.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Otherwise, is a street road on the coast, all the way to Nanji.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There is a direct road otherwise. Oh, okay.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But not, not like, as
Emeka Okereke: It's... Not inland.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the quill flies, okay.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, not inland yet.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Even when there's no political unrest, not yet.

Emeka Okereke: Oh, no, no, there's when there is no, there is a road.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: When there is no political unrest, you can pass through Senegal into Mali.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And we have done that route many times, Mali into Burkina Faso, you can pass inland.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay. Cool.

Emeka Okereke: But you don't

Emeka Okereke: pass through the Sahara.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: That's very difficult to go through and very dangerous.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Bandits, everything happening between

Emeka Okereke: Morocco and Western Sahara.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: That also is a very contested space because Western
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Sahara still feels like they are being colonized by Morocco.

Emeka Okereke: That is not part of Morocco.

Emeka Okereke: That also we have to contend with as well.

Emeka Okereke: So there's all of those divide, but, The

Emeka Okereke: way I see it is this.

Emeka Okereke: I've been, I

Emeka Okereke: talk about a kind of a pragmatic optimism.

Emeka Okereke: That, Africans have in abundance.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah
Emeka Okereke: So, Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The beautiful ones, that's it for me. It's the singer optimistic.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Is it, but it's a very pragmatic one.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: In the sense that, you

Emeka Okereke: It comes into play when you see the obstacles like itself

Emeka Okereke: you know, you say we are going to, because that's the only

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: way you can clear that road, open that road.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Emeka Okereke: You know, by having, by appreciating that pragmatic

Emeka Okereke: optimism that we have, it is what your mom

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: ran with, you know, it is an
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mhm.

Emeka Okereke: estrange pragmatic optimism.

Emeka Okereke: She knew that she could put it here and it will stand.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: Even if everything comes towards her against her.

Emeka Okereke: Believes so much in that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: Optimism that we have.

Emeka Okereke: So, that's also very inspiring and it's so funny because

Emeka Okereke: as I was, you know, researching for our conversation.

Emeka Okereke: In the past one week, I've been looking at this question of the pragmatic

Emeka Okereke: optimism, and that's actually how I can, I framed the

Emeka Okereke: way I understand the work of your, of your mom.

Emeka Okereke: It came from the strong because someone can easily

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: be pessimistic because of that.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, say it's too much.
Emeka Okereke: You know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's not possible.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's too daunting.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She never, never given to that.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: But the only thing that could lead that is not just about

Emeka Okereke: It's not vengeance, right?

Emeka Okereke: It's a selling kind of optimism that this can

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: can change, you know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sorry, now that you're talking, I want to look up a map.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I want to see your route.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's so exciting.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, so,.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: How many people are going this time?

Emeka Okereke: We are up to 12 of us divided into modules.

Emeka Okereke: So some people will come and leave while some will stay all

Emeka Okereke: the way along the

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, so if you are following Invisible Borders

Emeka Okereke: on Instagram, you are getting the updates on how we are moving.

Emeka Okereke: We are planning it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's wonderful.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh wow.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So Morocco, Mauritania.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Senegal.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The Senegal.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And then we now go into Guinea, Guinea
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Guinea okay.

Emeka Okereke: Ivory Coast, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Ghana.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, yeah, so you're skipping Sierra Leone, Liberia because

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that has okay, yeah.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, 0 wow.
Emeka Okereke: We're skipping that because if we go through there, there's more borders
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.
Emeka Okereke: although that's also, you

Emeka Okereke: know, a journey for another day, you know?

Emeka Okereke: And we are already aiming for our next 2027

Emeka Okereke: road trip, which is going to be in East Africa.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So, This journey, it's
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, that's amazing.

Emeka Okereke: it's really, Personally

Emeka Okereke: for me, I've come to the point where I'm like, It's

Emeka Okereke: It's very much in line with the conversations

Emeka Okereke: that we are having in our time.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So I don't I don't think of it as something that I
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: have to, you know, effort, you know, have

Emeka Okereke: You know, Like work so has to put myself in.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: No, no, no, it's just flowing is natural.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.
Emeka Okereke: consequence of how our time is unfolding.

Emeka Okereke: You know, in your work and everyone, everyone is coming at

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: it from different ways, in different
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: ways, in their in their way, in their own, you know?

Emeka Okereke: So, that's also what makes it.

Emeka Okereke: So I feel like I'm, I feel a sense

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: of comp, companionship, even when, you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Same.

Emeka Okereke: know, even when we're not, you're

Emeka Okereke: not in the bus or in the van, you're doing the work like, oh

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: yeah, we are all going in the some way, you know, coming
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: at it from different angle.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: I'm proposing something that is

Emeka Okereke: You know, is

Emeka Okereke: Is the transformation of the human psyche and intelligence.

Emeka Okereke: That's all.

Emeka Okereke: It's not about being good.

Emeka Okereke: It's not about being better.

Emeka Okereke: It's simply how can we task this intelligence

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: a little bit, you know, like, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Emeka Okereke: And when it went from the African perspective, there's is an

Emeka Okereke: ancient, continent, you know

Emeka Okereke: by the time we begin to really look at

Emeka Okereke: those references deeper

Emeka Okereke: then you see what kind of intelligence comes out of that.

Emeka Okereke: That is the part that excites me more, you know.

Emeka Okereke: You know, even the Igbo language.

Emeka Okereke: In a way, you begin to look at all of those ilu properly.

Emeka Okereke: It has prepared you for every where you want to touch, you want to go in the war.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I keep thinking of all this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I did mention this earlier, but anybody who knows my dad.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The one thing he was known for.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was he was very good with ilu.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's why he told Justin, like Ejuna n'aga, o kpulu nkoluko ya.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He's that person for like every situation.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He just pulls one out of the bag and it's like perfect.
Emeka Okereke: Fools won.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It's great.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But my whole life, like my whole memory of him, he had a book.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was like a black, like diary looking leather bound book.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And every time he heard an ilu, he wrote it down.
Emeka Okereke: He rats it down.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have been looking for that book.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Since he died.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I couldn't, and I thought it was just me because, you know, I like archiving

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I just thought, 0 my god, that is an archive, because you
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: find ilu here and there, but a book full of them

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and then like, last year, one of my siblings
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: on the group chat was like, what happened to Daddy's book of ilu?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, oh, yo, trust me, I have been looking for it, but we don't know where it is.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We don't know where it is.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like every time I go home, I am just like looking through every
Emeka Okereke: Hey.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: cupboard, every bookshelf, because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that's like, 0 my god, such an archive.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Just like, because there's no, I don't know that anyone collects
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, it is.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it or there's a record somewhere, but he must have over 500

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: written in that book.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It is indeed an archive, and this is something also
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Deep knowledge, deep, deep knowledge.
Emeka Okereke: it's a, it, look into it. Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, deep, deep.

Emeka Okereke: You know, in the Igbo language is very specific.

Emeka Okereke: It's not, you see, unlike, unlike

Emeka Okereke: those who, who will write.

Emeka Okereke: Or use a language to describe.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: The Igbo language is used to animate, to live, to
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: live life, you know?

Emeka Okereke: So when someone says, anya ruo gi ala.

Emeka Okereke: That is to let your eyes reach the ground.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It's not telling you.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Says hey, let your eyes touch the ground.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Because when you begin to look from there, you see everything.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: no, but it's like, my dad's funeral

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: one of my relatives, young kid was telling me like his mom

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: died when he was really young and he was telling me like as an

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: adult, he was having a hard time.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And he had a conversation with my dad and my dad told him.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okuko efughi n'oriom, ogaghi efu na nneku.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it was, you know, it's like sometimes it's just, oh, it's

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just like one sentence that, Just shows
Emeka Okereke: Well, you know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you by just saying if you didn't get, if a chicken was not lost

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: as a chick, they would not be lost as an adult.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's almost like if you survive this horrible thing that
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: happened to you, which is losing your mom as a kid.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This thing happening now will not shake you.
Emeka Okereke: We're not we're not, we're not.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like, oh, that was so deep.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He says that kind of stuff.
Emeka Okereke: So deep.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He's like, I want that book.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, I, oh.
Emeka Okereke: You know, and also for us now.

Emeka Okereke: working like this now, it's, you know, going

Emeka Okereke: even to go and sit.

Emeka Okereke: I from Arochukwu, the so-called Arochukwu that everyone

Emeka Okereke: knows was very instrumental in the shipping

Emeka Okereke: of the Igbo, you know, reality

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: up until the time they fought the war with the, with the British, you know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Like, I went to my village, the

Emeka Okereke: book I have here of the history of it was given to me by our Eze.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: He even autographed it.

Emeka Okereke: I have it here with me.

Emeka Okereke: He, so, and that is it, the lineage

Emeka Okereke: has been there since the founding of the same family.

Emeka Okereke: Up until now.

Emeka Okereke: So I was it, I filmed him, you know, interviewed him.

Emeka Okereke: You know, and I opened the Buddha that I saw how he wrote

Emeka Okereke: down all his titles.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.
Emeka Okereke: Even the ancient name of Arochukwu, Eze
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Ibom, of Arochukwu, and the Ibom

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: those were the people who were there, the Akwa Ibom people, what
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ooh, not quite...
Emeka Okereke: yeah, before Arochukwu came.

Emeka Okereke: So he even said, it's a Ibom.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So even the way he mentioned himself, was referencing all the way.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, no.

Emeka Okereke: Ah, man, it was, it was.

Emeka Okereke: It's incredible.

Emeka Okereke: So what I'm trying to say is that all of that is still there, waiting for us to come and ask.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.
Emeka Okereke: You know, say, oh, yeah?

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, so that it's, but it's important that

Emeka Okereke: we turn to, if our reference begin to touch on that.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Why we have all of these other connections now in the world.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Because I when I realize that the Igbo language has prepared me for everywhere

Emeka Okereke: I want to go to in the world.

Emeka Okereke: I relaxed.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, like, Onye ajuju anaghi efu uzo.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: Ebe oku nyuru, amusa owa.

Emeka Okereke: You know, like wherever the light goes off in

Emeka Okereke: the day, that's where you pitch your tent.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Emeka Okereke: Like, yes, now.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So if you get to France, you stay in France until the
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: light comes up again, you move.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The light comes back.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Whereas I can't, whenever I try to describe the ilu

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, no, it just, they don't translate, it's an, like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: where you deploy the perfect one for a situation.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nothing beats it.
Emeka Okereke: Is it's, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like you can talk for one hour or you can just give the right ilu.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it's done.
Emeka Okereke: And yes, and it's done and it's done.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because it's just deep knowledge.
Emeka Okereke: So when I started re-aptigating, those ilu

Emeka Okereke: in myself, I began to feel a sense of, you know

Emeka Okereke: relaxing, because you realize that these people have

Emeka Okereke: these sojournas, they have been moving.

Emeka Okereke: You know, there's all these metaphors about journeys.

Emeka Okereke: It's littered everywhere in the Igbo language.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: That tells you that they have they have Johnny people.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh yeah, even Okuko efughi n'oriom.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, if you didn't get lost as a chick, it's
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, around, like movements, being lost.
Emeka Okereke: You know, movement, movement is so is
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: so you get a sense that, At some

Emeka Okereke: point, it thought is also the narrative.

Emeka Okereke: Africa has always been a story of journeys.

Emeka Okereke: This is actually what inspired the Invisible Borders project

Emeka Okereke: is this narrative that it is about slavery and limitation.

Emeka Okereke: No, it was 1st and foremost a story of journeys, people moving.

Emeka Okereke: You know, that's a different kind of intelligence when

Emeka Okereke: you see reality that way, as in constant movement.

Emeka Okereke: hospitality, you

Emeka Okereke: carry what, you know, you carry what is.

Emeka Okereke: What is necessary?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: That is the whole ilu of the snail.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You carry only what is, the shell of
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: the snail is a refuge now.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: And the snail moves very slowly.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So he must carry the shell because that is his decoy.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: You know?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, it’s a decoy. Because, you know, Ikenga
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: is a, is a two-faced a deity.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: He says, if you're going forward, you have the, you are going.

Emeka Okereke: If you are going backwards, it's the same.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You're going.

Emeka Okereke: So all of that, when you think about it that way, then you

Emeka Okereke: you begin to ask yourself, what is the orientation?

Emeka Okereke: What is my, so, the

Emeka Okereke: The focus of your, of your intervention begins to

Emeka Okereke: shift away from justifying who you are and

Emeka Okereke: what, what, and what you are doing, and then you

Emeka Okereke: begin to see reality properly and how

Emeka Okereke: you actually affect it.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: So, when we look at it from that angle

Emeka Okereke: I see possibly, I see of optimism.

Emeka Okereke: Right?

Emeka Okereke: And I see, I see these species of

Emeka Okereke: exciting interventions that we are all a

Emeka Okereke: part of.

Emeka Okereke: So yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This has been so wonderful.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you, thank you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you for inviting me and I'm so happy.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It worked out.
Emeka Okereke: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: Yes, I'm glad we made it happen.

Emeka Okereke: So, this is what we ended for today.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: yeah, I just, it was so easy to chat.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt like we're just like chatting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: One day it was a podcast.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you so much for the invitation and for the lovely conversation.
Emeka Okereke: All right.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had a wonderful time.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, my pleasure as well.

Emeka Okereke: Thank you so much, and I'm glad that we were

Emeka Okereke: able to have the occasion, you know, the fortune

Emeka Okereke: to be able to make this happen.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, and for all of you listening, I hope
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you.

Emeka Okereke: you've enjoyed the conversation, and yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Bye-bye.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Bye.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you listeners, thank you, Emeka.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Bye.

Emeka Okereke: Yes, bye bye, yeah.

[Closing theme music]