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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.684)
My new mantra is who gives a shit. That's where I'm. Welcome.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:05.4)
Welcome, welcome.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:07.916)
We're going to talk messes today. Do you want to go first or do you want me to? We've already talked about mine yesterday, but I'm still in it. So we can talk about it again or we can do it at the end when we see how much time we have left after yours.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:09.727)
We are going to talk messes
Taina Brown she/hers (00:24.95)
You can go, friend.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:26.382)
Okay, I love your mug. For anyone who's not watching on YouTube, it's a Golden Girls Betty White from the Golden Girls, says stay golden. One of my favorite things is when people send me random texts, I got one yesterday, where people know my obsession with Golden Girls. And so they will just randomly send me things and be like, thought of you anytime they see Golden Girls stuff. And that just warms the cockles of my heart because I'm like, like it's when you feel seen, you know? And I'm like, it's so seen. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:28.514)
Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:53.035)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. was a gift from my wife, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:56.75)
Well, I love it. Well, your wife's amazing. OK, it sort of ties into what I'm thinking about, because my mess is that I'm feeling I'm feeling that's it. My mess is that I'm feeling I'm feeling a lot and it feels heavy and the world like I am finding myself sinking a bit into the place of what's the fucking point? It's all going to end anyway. Like some pretty nihilistic, like not ultimately we're all going to die, but like some pretty heavy like.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:07.672)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:25.24)
How the hell do I get out of the US? This is really scary. Is no one coming to save us? Like, do we not see the way this man is imploding and like literally destroying our presence in the world stage? I've known domestically, America's always been fucked up. It has never been good for lots of people. Despite my relative privilege, my incredible privilege, where I've had amount of safety, I've always known, well, long known, that's not the case for everyone.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:26.667)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:55.15)
So like, know domestically there's all kinds of problems. The one thing that has been true, though, since the 1940s, since World War II, has been, and that's so basically the entirety of almost everyone who's alive, our lifetimes, we've only known America as sort of this dominant global power, a world leader, a place, a representative theoretically anyway, of freedom, of wanting to do right by the world.
We know that there's also all kinds of holes in that story. However, we've always sort of had this combined safety as American citizens where our passport meant something, our standing as Americans meant something in the global stage, right? And that's being eroded in rapid time. Like, it's amazing to watch it happening, to see long held allies denouncing us, turning on us, all rightfully so. They should be because this maniac has
Taina Brown she/hers (02:27.521)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:54.286)
has made it so they should. But it's bizarre to have that in a lifetime where I think almost, I mean, very few people who are alive other than those who are older than 80 something, really older than like 90, would really even remember a time where it wasn't the truth that America was sort of seen as the global dominant force. And to watch our credibility on the world stage, however tenuous we know that credibility to be, all of the problems behind it that we know.
Like to see that destroyed is really overwhelming. Like just thinking that there's gonna be countries where previously we could easily go with our passports that are gonna now start to demand visas and all kinds of things because of who we now are. Because we are now seen as the, not only seen as, we are now the bad guy. And it's, I mean, we've been the bad guy in so many ways. So like, know like, cause I can already feel like I know.
Right, like I know they're going to shoot holes in that story and it is a myth, the myth making of America on the global stage. And yet it has created real accessibility, real privilege for anyone who holds that blue passport that is now being eroded. And that's just scary to me. The idea that we have the people, the people of the good, wonderful people of Greenland granted it's 55,000 of them, but I care about those 50,000, 5,000 humans and the
Taina Brown she/hers (03:59.214)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:18.902)
that country has said, we hear you saying, it's not all of us, but we don't care. It is all of you. Rightfully so, rightfully so. We would be saying the same thing. We've done the same thing with our quote unquote enemies on the world stage. Of course, it's not every person in Russia, right? Not every Russian agrees with Putin. We know that. And yet we still sort of villainize Russians.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:28.242)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:43.027)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (04:45.742)
Well, that's what's happening with us. Anyway, so all of that to say, I'm feeling all those feelings, all that heaviness, that sat, I think it's grief. There's grief, right? I'm identifying maybe there's grief there. This grief that, and it's a loss of a privilege. I recognize that because the rest of the world hasn't had that privilege. We know that. That blue passport privilege, I have seen so much commentary from non-Americans about.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:52.465)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:12.92)
how little we recognize the privilege that we've hold because we have had because of the passport status, right? So I recognize that it is a privilege and it's that loss of privilege and what that may end up meaning with the undercurrents of the very real threats of war, of escalation, of weapons that are very frightening, right? Of like a maniac being in charge of those things.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:16.297)
Because of the passport, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:41.149)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:41.56)
Having a young son who is only eight years away from possible conscription into military forces where that happened. So just like all of that looming. So it's had me sitting back in the recliner. So you may remember a year ago after inauguration, I fell into a similar situation where I spent a solid two, three months sitting in my recliner, finding it hard to work. And I'm there again. And as you pointed out yesterday, I have not had seasonal defective disorder. Maybe I do.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:47.509)
Hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:11.222)
Maybe it's seasonal. Or as we said, maybe I've developed SAD under this regime. Maybe a regime dependent case of SAD could also be paraminopause. So like all the things. So that's my message that I'm in it. And I'm seeing it. I'm catching it. I'm catching it much faster. I do feel like each time I go through these rounds of like whatever the thing is where I start to spiral, I do catch it more quickly. And I've noticed it really quickly into the new year. I'm like, I've really
Taina Brown she/hers (06:17.523)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:40.83)
done very little in this. OK. Yeah, to recognize it. So now what? Right. And I guess that's the mess of what. And yesterday we talked inside a community about community and I wanted to report back that after that call, I did post on threads, hey, I'm looking for a unicorn in St. Louis. Do you exist? And sort of outlining the kind of person I'm looking for somebody who has read Audre Lorde and I put IE understands intersectionality, right? Because I'm not looking for girl bossy feminist friends.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:42.162)
Yeah, that's growth. That's growth though.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:09.267)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:09.954)
somebody who ideally has kids only because I'm going to talk about my kid and I don't want you to get bored listening to me talk about my kid. and I can't remember what else, but like, ideally self-employed because I would love to be able to go have coworking coffee dates during the day. So somebody who's sort of accessible. I've had three women reach out.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:23.016)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:27.703)
my gosh, that's amazing.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:29.792)
All three fell short on one of the things, but they all hit at least a couple of them. But one of them, and I don't know if she's gonna listen to this, we're not friends yet, we haven't met yet, but I'm very excited about, because she hits on mostly categories except being self-employed, but she's home during the day because she has young kids. Our age difference could be a thing, we'll see. But she's working for Cori Bush, volunteering for Cori Bush, who I'm very excited about and would love to get more involved in the campaign.
which then also had me the thought maybe I need to get more involved in a campaign like that, because it would get me out in my and help me meet community more. The other thing I did was I did some embroidery last night because I was like, okay, that's the thing that I have discovered is starting to help like with calming my nerves that woman does embroidery too. What are the chances? Her embroidery was like something about pride. So I was like, perfect. Like she does flip it kind of embroidery like I do. And then today I started to organize my book
Taina Brown she/hers (08:13.732)
Hehehehehe
Becky Mollenkamp (08:26.958)
book reading because I haven't done that yet. And I have been tracking my reading and I'm adding categories for gender, where they're from, and then race because I also want to make sure that I'm doing a better job of really thinking through am I reading diverse authors as a diversity of oh and genre because I also want to challenge myself. I think it was you who sent me the reading challenge to was it you? I think maybe it was faith. I'll send it to you then somebody sent me this reading challenge and like it was this year.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:49.716)
I don't think so.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:56.374)
like trying to read one from each of these different categories, reading a certain number of non-American writers or from, I think it was even specific countries and regions, like all sorts of things. Like that got me thinking about like being more intentional about that. And that felt really good to sit down, do that. And then right as we got on this call, I took my anxiety meds, which I've gotten a little bad about because I've been off schedule. So I guess my med, like my update is I wanted to give you an update from yesterday where.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:00.041)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:05.672)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:16.507)
I'm so proud of you!
Becky Mollenkamp (09:22.914)
I had been recognizing for a while I was sinking into this thing. Like could feel myself, you know, it's like the toilet like whooshing down, right? I can feel myself starting to go down the drain. I'm like, wait a minute, no, I don't wanna go all the way down. Like stop. Yeah, so I'm like, I gotta climb back up out of this. How do I get myself out of that? The toilet drain now is kind of gross. I should have thought of a better analogy that's gross, but.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:26.642)
yeah.
Yeah, the drain, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:35.016)
You're spiraling.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:45.2)
Just a whirlpool, just a whirlpool.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:47.126)
And yesterday you talked about resource mapping, which I thought was like, it got me thinking about, what are, in my mind, it was like, what are the, what's the resourcing I need to create the capacity that I need in this moment to function? Cause I want to just get back to baseline. Like I don't need to get to hyperproductive right now, but I don't, like I want to stop the sinking, right? So what are those things? And for me, it looks like definitely I got to get back on medication consistently.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:59.356)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:03.591)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:13.202)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:13.356)
I need to get offline more. So I'm thinking about that too. Like, what does that look like? And I asked you for some support on that. I'm also thinking about ways to reduce that. And the embroidery is one of those, because when my hand's occupied, I can't scroll, right? So I'm like, OK, during commercials scrolling, will be using my needle. So that's helpful. And then trying to think about community and what that looks like. I also set up a coffee date with a woman I had met years ago. And then we re-engaged a couple of months ago. And she had reached out.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:25.948)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:43.318)
yesterday, like the universe. She reached out yesterday, I think right after the call that we had had. And I was like, she was awesome. And we and she is somebody I could connect with locally. So that was great. So I'm like, OK, I'm set that up. So I'm making progress. But I share really the whole reason I wanted to share it is I recognize it's fucking intense right now. Like whether you are confronting for the first time a loss of privilege, if it's a
Taina Brown she/hers (10:49.083)
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (11:11.666)
new type, like for me, it's not the first time I'm confronting loss of privilege. It's a new and to me, it feels like an even scarier level of privilege that I'm that I feel a loss of. Or even if you've been like, dude, I never had privilege, but I'm still feeling like, you know, like I can still feel the weight of all of these continued. Right. And what that continues to mean, because if you've not had any of those privileges and then you're still feeling all this on top of that, I imagine it's even heavier. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:21.242)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:30.649)
of everything that's happening, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:40.088)
So wherever you're at on that spectrum, I just want to acknowledge that I think so many of us who have our wits about us at the moment are mildly educated, are probably feeling it. If you have any awareness, if you're watching the news at all, even hearing it from other people, you've got to know things are pretty intense. So I want you to know, I think even people who have decent emotional intelligence, who have good skills,
Taina Brown she/hers (11:55.344)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:07.267)
Yeah, you're still, everybody's feeling it. I don't think, I don't think where people fall on the political spectrum matters right now. I think everyone is feeling it to some degree.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:09.441)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:19.47)
But yeah, I mean, I think for that 15, I am happy to say I think that percentage of people who blindly will follow the orange buffoon no matter what, like literally no matter what those people who are like, yeah, I'd vote for him if he shouts, I literally witnessed him shooting an innocent baby, right? Like those people, I think that number is getting a little smaller, which is great. Those people I think it just, they just blissfully go on about their lives it seems. You don't think so? You don't think they're blissfully go? I mean, tell me they're not, that's great.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:35.589)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:44.209)
I mean.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:49.347)
I, from what I know about being a human being and like being in a situation like, when I say a situation, I mean like when I was part of a religious organization that was borderline cultish, right? Like when you're in that kind of context where you are just blindly following like,
There's always just like a little thing just kind of nagging at you that you have to intentionally gaslight yourself about. I mean, and I think, obviously depending on the level of delusion, like how loud that nagging voice is.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:32.878)
How loud is that voice for Trump, Stephen Miller? I'm curious, like, genuinely, I'm wondering what do you think it is? Like, how loud do you think that voice is at the moment for particularly Stephen Miller? Because Trump, think, is is mostly a puppet, a fairly demented puppet. I think he's an additionally demented now puppet. Like, I really think there's dementia happening there and he seems, you know, so becomes much easier to control.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:37.644)
Yeah, yeah, it's in degrees, it's in degrees, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (13:50.518)
Yeah, he's always been a puppet. He's always been a puppet.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:01.189)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:01.868)
But I'm wondering about the Stephen Millers of the world, the people that actually have their hands up his behind who are the boy like do because it's a good challenge like as hard as it is for me. It is a good challenge because I can fall victim in the same way that the Stephen Millers of the world fall are clearly they forget about humanity like they lose sight of another person's humanity. And we see it even at the like ice agents and everything where it becomes easy and a group swarm to.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:06.863)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:20.591)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:29.006)
to forget that there's real humans on the other side of your strong feelings. And I can fall victim to that. but I have, mean, I'm having a hard time believing there's much humanity inside of Stephen Miller, but tell me there is. me there is. Okay, there is.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:31.974)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:44.442)
There is, mean, I think how much of that he allows himself to be and how much of that we're allowed to see is obviously,
Becky Mollenkamp (14:53.57)
Well, yeah, we're obviously not allowed to see it, but I guess we need to believe it exists, huh? Because I don't want to be, you're right, like, I don't want to be them. I don't want to be them.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:55.939)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:59.287)
Yeah, I mean...
Taina Brown she/hers (15:04.654)
Yeah, and that's not to excuse the harm, right? But I think it's important to remember that like, like you said, it's easy to, when you make someone the enemy, it's easy to dehumanize them. And while...
Becky Mollenkamp (15:08.832)
No. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:21.569)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:26.595)
They are engaging in highly, highly harmful behavior and policies and major opp vibes as the kids say these days, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (15:37.966)
and actively dehumanizing others, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (15:40.63)
Others, yeah, absolutely. also, like, I mean, and I think we may have talked about this before on a previous episode, but it brings to mind Paulo Freire, the Brazilian education theorist that's like, you have to actively give up a part of your humanity in order to dehumanize someone else. Because we as human beings are not created to do that to each other.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:52.174)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (16:09.823)
Like we're created to see the humanity in each other, right? And in order to engage in this kind of enemy behavior, you have to cut yourself off from your feelings. I feel bad for these people. They might look great and have all the money in the world and just be going about their business right now. the kind of darkness that has to exist within you to be able to be okay to do these things.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:22.2)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:39.757)
I don't wish that on anybody.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:41.592)
Well, right. And listen, I am vehemently opposed to the death penalty. And I've always talked about how I know it's easier to stand in that truth when I'm not in the position of somebody having killed my child, as an example. I know in that moment how easy it is to be like, seek vengeance, eye for an eye. I no longer can see your humanity because you've robbed my child of theirs.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:57.007)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:04.591)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:09.646)
I want you gone. And that's why I think it's important to have these firm beliefs before you're in that moment so that you can go back to them and have others help you remember. And to create guardrails, which I talking about yesterday, like I'm lacking, like I need firmer guardrails. When I don't have them, I fall off of them. I don't want to be the person who's sitting in the recliner all day, but without enforcing my own guardrails, I will end up there. I don't want to be the person who wishes someone else's death.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:19.437)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:36.286)
without some guardrails that were already in place in the moment when I start to feel as if it's hard for me to remember that. And that's why we need laws. I want laws already in place that represent my values so that in the moment when I don't have those guardrails anymore on my own, that those values, those that my values are still going to sort of be forced on me when I can lose sight. Cause I will lose sight. We all do. And so, but it is,
It makes me think like maybe a practice I need to try again and I did early on back in like 2016 and 15 with Trump and stopped is some loving kindness meditation around, you that really focuses on trying to remember the humanity of someone and like thinking about baby Trump, like that little child who came to this world that I fundamentally believe was not born evil. I don't believe that. I don't believe there are humans who are born evil. Right. Things happen that create that
Taina Brown she/hers (18:14.872)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:26.925)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:30.028)
blackness in their heart, that hard edges, the forgetting of others humanity, I think that it is created, it is not birthed into the world. And so trying to find that and touch into that, I think could also be helpful because I can't find myself right now getting into some of that really dark place of hate. And I don't wanna hate, I don't wanna hate just because others are hating. So yeah, that's a good reminder.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:38.827)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:50.029)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, but also I think, you like you said earlier, like you're recognizing it earlier as like the spiral is like starting to happen. and this is this is a grief process, right? It's a grieving process. And part of that process is managing and accepting the anger and the hate. Right. Like and but I think how you come out of that process is what is what ultimately matters.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:11.01)
Hunger.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:22.04)
But that's where that resource mapping piece that like, what are the guardrails that already are in place, the resources that you have in place that when you're in that allow you to be with that anger in a way that isn't harming others, right? Because I want to able to honor that anger. You're right. Like I want to be able to honor it. And I do know it's a real part of the process. And if I don't have some guardrails already in place, if I'm not careful, then that anger
Taina Brown she/hers (19:35.326)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:50.232)
can show up and end up manifesting ways I don't want it to. You know, this morning I lost my cool with my kid a little bit. Again, as I've talked about, like he's starting to get flooded with testosterone. It's a challenge because he gets angry for no reason. It just like, whoop, and you're like, what is that? And he doesn't know. And I understand hormones. And if I'm not well-resourced and if I don't have my guardrails in place, all that anger that I'm feeling elsewhere then can be like, you're going to come in.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:53.398)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:07.787)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:18.128)
it comes out.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:19.362)
You come out with me, I'm going to meet you with that. That's not how I want to show up. But of course, I know anger and I'm in it. And guess what? I hormones flooding me too or leaving me. like, yeah, I just that's where it's like, OK, I need to remind myself and get better about the having the things that allow me to be resourced so that I can feel the anger, but feel it appropriately, feel it in a way that remains healthy and not.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:20.949)
Yeah. Yeah. Like, you don't know who you're talking to, little boy.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:46.305)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:48.76)
harmful and that's hard. mean, that's hard stuff, but I think it's such a good reminder for all of us is like the awareness is I always say that like awareness is key without awareness. Nothing else happens. We have to be able to have some self-awareness which we can clearly see some people in the world lacking in the moment. Why only like so that I think that piece working on that more than anything for yourself is so important. Can you work on self-awareness?
Taina Brown she/hers (20:49.483)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:03.749)
You are incredibly so.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:14.488)
to notice the cues in your body and your behaviors and your thoughts that are keying you in on, hey, there's a, like, here's the red flag. Something's happening, right? Because so many of us don't even see it. Because then we can say, OK, I can see it. So then now what? And then getting to that next step even faster. Like, the more we can do that work so that those things can happen more quickly instead of long lag times that cost you so much. And so.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:34.783)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:43.136)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:44.43)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not here to toot my own horn because I have had a couple of weeks of before. I mean, I had some awareness getting into the action phase was a little harder. But then I think to help also between the awareness and action. I think the thing that helps is the speaking it out loud because I can have the awareness. But if I keep it internal, then like I feel like I'm cheating the system. You're like, yeah, I know it's happening. I just. But nobody else knows, even though.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:00.948)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:04.991)
You don't have to do anything about it.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:10.411)
I know, but I'm not responsible.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:13.238)
Everyone knows, they all know. But speaking it out loud really, I find helps then prompt me into the action stage where then I can start to make some meaningful changes. It doesn't mean, and I think this is important too, it doesn't mean overnight, just because I've now talked about it and I'm gonna start resourcing, that doesn't mean it goes away, right? Like I still exist in this world and this stuff is still gonna be heavy, probably only gonna get heavier. So, and I'm still gonna be feeling all of those feelings. I'm still going through that grief.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:20.352)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:36.705)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:40.856)
But I can do it in a way then that becomes less harmful and more healing and healthy. So yeah, that's my message for today. And you were very helpful yesterday. Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:48.577)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're welcome. I think, you when we talk about things like self-awareness, like, I always feel like I have to preface it because I have been this person and sometimes still continue to be this person where it's like my sense of self-awareness is biased to make me look better.
And so.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:18.67)
In so many ways, isn't it funny though, like there are ways where it's not. Like I, you know, I have all of those issues around with. Yeah, or I'm the most hideous looking person ever or whatever. But yeah, there are times where I can convince myself just even thinking, yeah, well, or I totally know it's happening. So like that's huge and it is, but it's also like until I can move to the next stage. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:22.792)
Yeah, where it's like, my God, I'm the worst person ever. But then, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I'm doing great.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:36.723)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And so I think like when it comes to self-awareness, right, like that's a skill that you have to learn through getting, usually for most of us, like some outside perspective, right? Like is self-awareness isn't necessarily something that comes easily or that comes clearly. And so for me, like...
Taina Brown she/hers (24:06.793)
doing my best to maintain a healthy sense of self-awareness has come through. Being resourced in different ways, So medication, therapy, talking things out, being in community, right? So it's not just one avenue that's helped to create an environment or a context for myself where I can recognize what's happening and then work through it. It's had to be multiple support structures.
to get me to this place. It's not something that you just wake up and be like, oh, I'm going to decide to be self-aware today. It doesn't happen that way.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:36.686)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:45.006)
Well, and I think it's also for me, again, like I was saying, noticing because I can look at I could look just at my thoughts and maybe excuse myself or I could look at just my behaviors. Like maybe I'm having this fire like a lot of those slots, but I'm still by all intents and purposes functioning because I'm, you know, getting the kid to school and I'm getting some work done or whatever. And then how I'm feeling. So like I think it's I need to look at all of those, right. To notice.
What are in my body is included in that too, how I'm like feeling in my body and also my emotions. Because if I examine all of those, I can start to notice it early because it may show up in one place and it hasn't yet in the other, right? For often for me, the actions will be one of the last things where I would notice it, right? Like I'm feeling it in my body. I'm not sleeping well, right? I'm noticing in my emotions, like I'm feeling really sad, but I'm still, if I looked, anybody looked at me, I'm getting things done. You know, nothing looks like it's really changed. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:25.896)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:39.522)
I think it's noticing all of those, like, queuing in all the time in all those parts of your body to see where there's misalignment or something that doesn't feel right, and not allowing yourself to just use one to excuse yourself from it or to ignore it. So, yeah. Yeah, good.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:53.846)
Yeah, yeah. It, you know, when we were talking about anger, like it just, made me think about Black History Month is coming up. And so I always get like requests to do like workshops for Black History Month. And so, and one of the things that, so it made me think about like some of my workshop content, because like one of the things that, or the way that I usually like to end is to talk about what
what was the civil rights movement about? Like, cause a lot of people are just, well, not a lot of people, but you know, I think sometimes we misunderstand what the motivation is because of the state of the world that we live in, we're like, well, people are angry. So they took to the streets, right? People are angry about things. So they wanted to see change. And yes, that's true. But like anger can only carry you so far.
Right? Like movements, any kind of movement, whether it was like the civil rights movement or anything else, like a lot of those spaces were born out of like a hope, right? There was a sense of hopefulness and joy about what could be possible, right? Like, cause if you're, if you're, if you're moving from anger, you're
moving around something that's already happened. You're not moving towards a destination. You're not moving towards the future. And based... And now I was just gonna say, like, with everything that's happening right now, like, yes, let's... It's totally valid for us to be angry and to feel that and let that be part of what motivates us, but also, like, well, what kind of world are we trying to build?
Becky Mollenkamp (27:26.734)
Well, I think that's part of that. Oh, sorry.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:45.262)
Well, that's the difference between healthy anger and harmful anger, right? Because anger can be incredibly healthy and helpful and useful. It can also be really harmful. And I think often the difference is, it fueled by revenge, like vengeance, you know, whatever? And I'm sure there's others, but my mind at the moment is only thinking of vengeance. Or is it fueled by hope?
Taina Brown she/hers (27:56.071)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:10.646)
Is it fueled by, I know there's something better and I can see it and I'm angry that we're not there yet, right? And there's a big difference in those, the ways that shows up. And I think some of that is, are you resourced? And so some of that looks like, you know, in what's happening now, let's say a bunch of different people who are just pissed off and want revenge for someone's death, that's a mob, right? And that might result in, yeah, you get your vengeance, but you don't create change. If you have
Taina Brown she/hers (28:15.304)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:34.086)
Mm-mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:40.046)
community activists, people who understand community building, who understand actually creating change and what that looks like through movements over time. Those are the people who are going to say, we can either do the thing you're saying and go kill the cop and we all go to prison and nothing changes except our lives now are ruined. Or we can fuel this anger by being together instead of us just being a bunch of angry people who are acting independently for the same goal. That's a different thing than a bunch of people acting in concert.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:57.383)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:09.672)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:09.742)
towards a unified goal, each doing the piece of it that they do well, right? Create that momentum and so they can support each other through rest so that it can sustain itself. Like those are two very different things. And so I think anger gets a really bad rap for women, especially. We learn being scared of our anger. And I think it's because we don't learn about healthy anger. We just are told all anger is unhealthy. Men learn about anger, but they never understand the difference between healthy and unhealthy.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:14.341)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:25.543)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:30.866)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:37.052)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:37.966)
right? And so they get channeled into a lot of unhealthy anger. What we all need is to figure out what is healthy anger look like, right? In action. And I think one of those big differences are your resource to be able to do that. We talked a lot about my thing. I want to make sure we have time for yours.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:50.63)
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. My mess. Okay. My mess is, so my mom died in December. You know this. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:56.526)
But we're mess.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:05.998)
I did, but if you want to share it or not.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:13.704)
And.
We didn't have a great relationship, you know? Like, we were partially estranged, fully estranged when I was younger for a few years, because it was just really toxic. Like, we just couldn't help but be toxic. Thanks to therapy and, you know, things like that, like, able to just kind of be in a somewhat healthy-ish.
relationship with her with very strict boundaries. And so, and we've talked about this like in private, but like,
There's still like a, well, speaking of anger, there's still like a part of me that's like angry about, not about like necessarily my growing up and all the tumultuous history of my childhood. But so when she passed, she was a part of a church down in Florida. And
Becky Mollenkamp (31:28.206)
Is it the same church that you grew up in or a changed church?
Taina Brown she/hers (31:30.433)
No, this is a different church. Yeah, the church I grew up in Florida was like a Hispanic church. And then the church that I was that was like cultish, that I was like heavily involved in when I was like in my early twenties was in Atlanta. Yeah, this church that my mom went to in Florida is mostly white, older people.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:46.476)
Becky Mollenkamp (31:58.742)
Is it evangelical?
Taina Brown she/hers (32:00.866)
It is. It's an Assemblies of God church. If you know anything about church denominations, that tells you a lot. But if you don't know anything about church denominations, you know, it's spirit-filled, evangelical. They don't.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:06.318)
don't
Taina Brown she/hers (32:19.622)
Homosexuality is a sin, any kind of non-heterosexual relationships are a sin. Anyway, so yeah, so like.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:25.208)
Which if anyone who didn't hear earlier, Taina mentioned her wife. So now I can see where that might cause strain. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:29.326)
wife yes yes yeah so but it's like these like
Taina Brown she/hers (32:38.883)
older white people in her church knew this version of her that I just didn't know. And I don't know if, I'll never know if that version of her was fake or if it was just an evolution of just how she grew as a person and who she really was at the end of her life. I'll never know how authentic that version of her is. There's a part of me that's always been like...
that's always felt like the version of her that she showed everyone else was inauthentic to who she was at home. Because when you grow up in a really toxic, abusive environment, everything that happens outside the home is fake, right? It's all a show to cover up what's really happening inside the home. But at the funeral, I had to plan the funeral. My wife and I planned the funeral.
because her husband is in his 80s and very forgetful and just also just kind of out of it. Like he was incredibly devoted to her, like was her primary caretaker at the end of her life when she was like really, really sick. And my brother had a different kind of relationship with her. And so they were closer than I was, than me and her were. And so
So his grief was different than mine. so...
But so yeah, like at the funeral and all of that, like all these, I just had all these like gray haired, sweet, sweet little old ladies, know, well-meaning, well-intentioned.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:33.007)
Probably Trump voters, you know, because it's Florida.
saying things to me like, your mom, she was so amazing. But you know, you're her daughter or, yeah, yeah, without them understanding that that's what's happening, you know, and so.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:52.142)
Right, things that don't match your experience. It's like gaslighting kind of a feeling.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:00.558)
It was gaslighting lacking the intentionality of gaslighting or the maliciousness of gaslighting, yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:03.437)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And so like.
A part of me was like, are we fucking talking about the same person? Like, that's not the version of my mom that I knew. But then the...
Becky Mollenkamp (35:16.736)
Right. I'm much smaller. I'll just say people who have grant people have children. So many people I've talked to have children have a similar, very different, but a similar understanding of that experience where you have kids and you watch your parents, grandparents, grandparents, and you're like, who the fuck are you? Like, that's not the parent I had. Where were you when I was a kid? But why? Like and and some of I do believe there is growth, right? Like, so there is that potential. I'm not saying that's case with your mom at all, but like there is that potential that.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:33.477)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:45.23)
It's almost this chance for a second act, a do over, a make good. You're kind of like, hey, yo, I'm still here. You can make good with me instead. like, you know, I so some agree. I do think we I hope we all evolve and grow over a lifetime. And I think that there are because of all of the shit that has already built up, like it's just like it keeps stacking on itself over years and years in every side of a relationship that sometimes it's easier with new people.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:48.044)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:00.058)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:14.638)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:14.67)
It's like you get to start fresh. it's like, this person only knows this version of me, and that's so much easier than trying to go back and excavate all the shit to get to a place like to start with someone else. Yeah. Right. And again, in no way trying to invalidate your experience or say that's the case. But there is that part of me that I can now understand that I couldn't before I had kids watching grandparenting and how that seems to happen so often where somebody's like, I'm a totally different person now than I was when I was trying to parent at 25. And now here I am at 60.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:21.923)
Yeah, without having to deal with all the triggers and all the mess. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:44.014)
And I have all this wisdom and change. And it's a lot easier for me to show up as this person with this fresh baby who knows nothing about that other version. We don't have all that shit that it is with the parent of this baby who I love. Yet we have all this shit and it's really hard. So I'm just gonna focus on the easy one, right? Like I can see that it doesn't excuse it, but I can see how that can sometimes happen.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:51.396)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:00.164)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:04.404)
Yeah, yeah, and I do believe that that's a part of it, right? I do believe that... I mean, it's still my mom. Like, I want to believe the best, right? But also... But 44 years, 43, almost 44 years of experience has told me a little bit different. so, but...
Becky Mollenkamp (37:17.1)
Yeah, I want to as well, but yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:26.444)
And some people should never have been parents. There are some people who really, are not good at it and didn't want it and it shows up. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so yeah, in no way am I saying that she, your experience was very real. It was your experience.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:29.238)
Yeah!
Taina Brown she/hers (37:33.165)
Yeah, yeah.
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:43.148)
Yeah, yeah. And I think I'm also, well, for one, she wasn't supposed to have kids because she had cancer as a child and they had told her that she would never have kids. Yeah. And so she had cancer multiple times throughout her life. We were surprises. Yeah, we were both surprises. And I'm not questioning, I've never questioned whether or not she loved me. Like I know my mom loved me. I just,
Becky Mollenkamp (37:52.782)
Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:58.03)
So y'all were surprises.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:13.496)
don't think she knew how to do that. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think she was resourced to be able to.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:22.484)
God and Taina I could speak for days about that just as a parent now and as a very privileged abundantly privileged parent who didn't have a kid until I was 40 so by then I had the blessings of years decades of wisdom of experience of like of having already done all of the parts of life that you want you know the fun stuff and like all like all of it being at a place in a you know in my career and in my life and in relationship and
Taina Brown she/hers (38:23.651)
be a healthy parent.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:52.33)
and settled and having a home. And like, I couldn't have more privilege to go into parenting. And I can still tell you, I feel under a fucking resource every day, every day. And I only have one. And he's a good kid. Right. Like, and it is the hardest job. And I used to not believe that when I didn't have kids. I'll be honest. I would be like, yeah, yeah, I know it's hard, but like, it's not that bad. And you chose it. But like, I really used to have all sorts of these thoughts when I wasn't a parent. And it is.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:12.581)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:22.816)
relentless is the only thing I can say to describe her. It's relentless. is really it doesn't there is no break. It does not stop. It is 24 7 constant job whether you're actually actively involved with the child or not. It is always here clicking of how do I keep them safe? How do I keep them healthy? How do I help them learn and grow and be good humans and like it is it is just fucking hard and there's not
Taina Brown she/hers (39:26.523)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:48.983)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:49.912)
There's no, you feel like there is no support systems other than what you are able to create for yourself. And I have a lot of privilege in create support systems. People who don't, I can't. I look at my mom now and I think being a single mom with two kids, one with deep special needs, I don't know how people do it. I don't know how people do it. That doesn't, again, none of that to excuse your mom, right? And resourcing is real, man. That is real.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:55.66)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:16.023)
Yeah, yeah. she, I mean, she also just had a hard life herself and towards like the last few years of her life was just like really sick all the time.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:27.31)
And that also I just want to for points on your side, not that we're pointing here, but like I do want to say that is that becomes a not burden. That's a hard word. That's it. But it becomes it. It takes away on your side. Right. Like, yes, like for you as our parents age, that like becomes a further way that you are not resourced. And
Taina Brown she/hers (40:39.204)
It's a wait. Yeah, it's a wait, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:49.612)
You also have all sorts of issues with your own health and other things as well that take away your resourcing. And so when both of you are coming into the relationship under resourced, because I think about that in a relationship with my partner. When we are both coming at it under resourced for whatever reason, very little good comes from our interactions in those moments.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:02.752)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:10.941)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it usually leads to fights. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:16.11)
Yeah, the unhealthy anger we talked about earlier, right? And so when you're both showing, it's one thing if one of you is under-resourced inside of a relationship. That's still hard, but at least the other one, I think, like with my son this morning, we both were angry. That didn't result in a good interaction. Now, if I could have kept Michael in that moment and he could have just had his anger, that interaction could have looked very different if we were both feeling, like if only one of us was resourced, because then I think I take some of that extra weight of the moment. But when you're both coming in to that unresourced,
Taina Brown she/hers (41:37.344)
Different, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:43.521)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:45.964)
I mean, it's very little good can come in if that's sustained, right? Where you're both coming into it under resource over time and time, and one of you is supposed to be the adult. So you should be the one who's able to function more resource even when you're not like, that's just a recipe for unhappiness in an unwell relationship.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:49.602)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:53.91)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:04.66)
Yeah, I mean, which is why I had such strict boundaries around my relationship with her. Like whenever we would only visit once or twice a year and we would not spend more than like four or five days at a time.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:19.47)
That's a long time. To me, that's a long time. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Do you like have all kinds of resubjects and things? out of, like, would you avoid certain topics, I would assume, maybe around politics or church or those things? Or was that? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:20.906)
Yeah, and that was pushing it. That was pushing it. That was pushing it.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:33.31)
Yeah, yeah, I think there was just like a quiet understanding that we just don't bring those things up. But she, when I was younger and I would go visit, she would always like try to take me to church with her and like stuff. And it would just be like, I guess I'll go, but I'm not gonna be happy about it, you know? Cause it's one of those things where it's like, pick and choose your battles. You had to, I felt like.
Every time I was down there I had to pick and choose my battles and whatnot. And a part of me is like, happy she's gone.
Not because I, again, not because I didn't love my mom, but she had a really hard life and she was suffering really, really badly towards the end of her life. And we knew, you know, that the end was not far off. We didn't expect it to be two days before Christmas, but we knew she probably wasn't.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:20.846)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:37.409)
If she made it to 2026, it wouldn't be long after that she would probably pass. so, so it.
Deciding to take her off life support felt like restoring some dignity to her in a way and I think
At the end of the day, regardless of how weird and angry, like, it sometimes makes me feel just thinking about how, like, these people in her church got to see a side of her that she never really showed me. And that's a choice that she made, obviously, right? There's also a part of me that's like, well, least somebody got to see that side of her.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:23.566)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:31.669)
Like at least maybe she felt like, yeah, like I'm like maybe that's where she felt safe enough to show that side of her. And I...
Becky Mollenkamp (44:32.142)
That's just like the loving kindness part of you.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:48.481)
can't fully blame her for not feeling safe around me because of the history and the nature of our relationship. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:54.798)
It could be a both and too, couldn't it? It could be a both and where you can see reasons why, maybe not and also, because I do want to just honor inside of, I'm equating it to, when I was equating it to a marital relationship, I want to be really clear that better representation would have been with my child because that is not a horizontal relationship. A parent-child relationship is a vertical relationship. There is a power dynamic that's always a play and I don't care how old you are. Your parent is still always your parent.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:16.084)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:22.332)
always your parent. Yeah, you will always be the child.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:22.658)
Right? And so that power dynamic, absolutely, that power dynamic always remains in place. And we have to honor that, right? You don't get to like, just because you are an under-resourced parent doesn't remove the fact that you're still the parent inside that relationship. And that comes with a certain set of responsibilities and how you have to show up at the same way as a boss. It doesn't matter if you're younger than your employee. And that suddenly, like none of that excuses.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:44.65)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:47.778)
in appropriate behavior because you still remain in a power dynamic where you have responsibilities and a parent does as well. So I want to honor that too. that was a, it's not a horizontal relationship. It is a vertical relationship and that comes with a different set of responsibilities that your parent didn't honor. And so there can be both. And it can be like, I can be angry with her because of the power dynamic and everything else where she fell short. And maybe you can, you're finding a place to find some humanity and say, you can also understand where
Taina Brown she/hers (45:50.935)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:15.404)
my part of things, maybe I could have done more, but it doesn't excuse the fact that inside of that relationship, she had a greater responsibility as the parent to be the one who made a difference in that relationship.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:22.868)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's a bit of a relief because it's like, I don't have to manage that dynamic anymore. Especially when I go visit. Huh?
Becky Mollenkamp (46:29.898)
It's very messy.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:41.678)
girlfriend, can I ever understand you? With my kid, my brother as an addict, would I would would I want him back as the pre addict my brother? Absolutely. I wouldn't take any for a thing for that. But can I understand that piece of like, there is that part of me that's relieved, not because he's dead, not because I'll never see him again, not because I don't love him, but because he was in pain. And he was causing so many people so much pain.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:53.736)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:09.022)
Yeah.
The suffering has stopped for everyone.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:11.884)
And that is something, yes. So maybe that's maybe the way to say it for people who can't maybe have never lived it and don't understand it is it's not so much that you're happy they're dead, right? But you're happy the suffering for everyone. The suffering involved with that dynamic is gone because I don't think anybody's gonna be like, I'm sad the suffering ended. yeah, nobody wants to, suffering of course we're always happy when suffering ends. Maybe not how it ended.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:24.093)
The suffering has stopped.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:34.834)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:40.312)
but we're happy it's over, that suffering, hers and yours. There was suffering for you inside of that as well that you now get to focus on, how do I begin to heal it? It's really hard to heal suffering that is continuing, right? Like I found that with my brother, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:41.917)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:53.503)
Mm-hmm. Every time we visit, it's like reopening the wound.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:58.818)
And then it's like, now I gotta go back into healing. And now it's kind of like, okay, I can actually put the band-aid on this thing and I can start to let it heal over time. And eventually I'm able to pull that band-aid away. And it's like, it can just be, maybe I'll always have a scar, right? That it's gonna be there and it's gonna be a reminder. And maybe even sometimes I just the scar is a little sore, but like it's healed. It's not reopening again and again and again and never gonna heal. And that's how I felt with my birth death. So I totally understand that. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:22.096)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:27.202)
And that can be hard to say out loud. I really want to honor you, because I think it was hard. because people who don't understand it don't understand it. And then they're like, how can you be happy they're dead?
Taina Brown she/hers (48:29.304)
It's very hard to say out loud. Yeah. Yeah, because it's
Yeah, and that's the thing. That's the thing. It's like even inside my family, there are people who never understood why I didn't visit more often or like they never understood the nature of my relationship with her because I'm literally the only person who had that kind of a relationship with her because everyone else like I mean they had their own you know relationship dynamics that were sometimes fraught with you know
Becky Mollenkamp (48:48.046)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:04.798)
contention and things like that but I'm the only person that she really abused.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:16.75)
It's taken me back to beginning in a way and not at all. Like, OK, just the the learning piece of it, not in any way saying you are like Stephen Miller, but in saying the like seeking to understand is such a thing that I feel like we lack that we because we just continue to get more and more polarized and we meaning me because I am actively a participant inside of the same system that just continues to polarize us.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:16.798)
They're late.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:46.06)
We are, we continue and like you said, it's taking away our own humanity by no longer wanting to seek to understand and instead just to label. And so for me to not to seek to understand why somebody who would vote for Trump would do something like that and instead just sort of want to put them into a box that says, I now see you as this box. It's like, it's like nullifying their, their experience of life. And now we have a different worldview. I want to be able to, but if I want to ever like actually
come to a place of common ground in some place, like I do have to try to seek to understand, like, who hurt you? What made you feel this way? Like, what is it, right? Like, if your family never wants to, if people aren't trying to seek to understand why you might feel the way you feel, it's just putting you into this box and isolating you. And then it just creates a rift that can't be healed. And like, I, Stephen Miller's a bad example, but like a Trump voting grandma who like, be said yesterday, like if I go to this embroidery club,
Taina Brown she/hers (50:20.725)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:34.475)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:39.654)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:44.446)
the hypothetical embroidery club and it's a bunch of old Trump voting ladies. Like I could be missing out on some older women who could hold me, who could bake me goods, like who know how to grandmother in that loving way because I'm putting them into this box instead of seeking to understand what was it that made you vote for Trump, right? And maybe I learned that like they have a basic lack of understanding of what he stands for. And if somebody had taken the time,
Taina Brown she/hers (51:10.119)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:12.024)
to in a loving way educate versus just yell, maybe that would have made a difference. Maybe they had one experience where their grandchild was murdered by a Venezuelan or whatever, right? And I can come to place of some understanding and be able to like discuss that in that way. We talked earlier about how I would feel if my child were murdered and yet I want my values to remain in place about caring about humanity, whatever. Those conversations just don't happen because we don't seek to understand.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:16.796)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:22.14)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:35.613)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:37.846)
I don't seek to understand. want to be really clear that I am speaking to myself, not just as if I am above that, because I'm not. I'm as guilty as anyone in this world that we live in now. And I think it is the systems that are wanting to do that to us, right? So it's, yeah. Right. It's not a personal failing. Yeah. Because who benefits from this climate, right? Not us. Yeah, it's not us that are in it. It's the billionaires at the top.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:50.477)
yeah, yeah, they're designed to polarize us. They're designed to cause rifts. Yeah, it's the way set up. The politicians. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:05.378)
who are like, ooh, if I just continue to have them, like just make them fight amongst themselves, they don't notice me up here continuing to siphon more and more of the wealth, right? And that's exactly what's happening.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:14.501)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's what they did, you know, decades, generations ago with like lower class, poverty stricken whites, right? Like they were like, you should focus on your race, not your wealth. So we can just continue to extract.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:32.216)
For sure. Can we just end on, I don't know if you saw it, but this video that's making the rounds right now of this white couple who was in an impoverished area of a town being interviewed about why they are so fervently pro-Trump and in that sphere of the world. And a Black person drove by an Alexis. And that was the, he was like, and he's got a, they've got Alexis.
How do they have Alexis, right? This whole like, who are they? I think it was Alexis. Anybody who saw it may even know it was a different car. They drive by like this luxury brand and it was a black person in the car. And this white guy basically saying, I can't afford Alexis. How should a black person have Alexis, right? Because of that very conditioning that has happened over time where white folks exactly that have been conditioned to not think about how do I move ahead, but how do I make sure others are behind me? That's what really matters.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:06.395)
It was a luxury car.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:15.996)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:29.414)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's my turn. You have to wait your turn. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:30.824)
As long as someone's doing worse than me, then I'm...
Yeah, or even worse, I don't even give a shit if you get a turn. Because as long as you're suffering, that means I'm at least doing better than someone else. Versus saying, wait a minute, you mean that guy up there who's now closing in on a trillion dollars of wealth? He's not helping either of us, right? Like us focusing on each other is keeping us from noticing him and the near trillion. In our lifetimes, he's gonna, mean, it's gonna be real soon.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:57.904)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:03.098)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:03.246)
There's going to be a human on earth with a trillion dollars. And this guy is worried because someone, a black man has a Lexus and he can't afford a nice car. Like there's something really wrong with that. And it does go to that like division that is being sowed. And it is not a personal failing that you feel the division. I'm Becky because speaking to me and I got that reminder of seeking to understand.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:11.434)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:18.394)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:24.176)
Hahahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (54:28.878)
Because there but for the grace of God go I, is what I always try to remind myself. If you would say, because I have points in my life, I can find understanding. But if I didn't, I really try to go back to, just because I don't understand it, it's probably there but for the grace of God go I. Only, and I'm not a biblical religious person, but that saying really speaks to me of like, it's just luck that it hasn't happened to me yet, right? Just because I don't understand it, it's only because it hasn't happened to me, doesn't mean that it can't or that it won't.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:56.805)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:58.924)
Right? Like I think about that with drunk drivers a lot because I have driven drunk in my life. I will admit that. Like I shouldn't. I haven't in a very long time. But there was a period of my life where I did drive drunk and there before the grace of God go I that I didn't kill someone. But when I see drunk drivers getting caught for killing someone, it's easy for me to be like, lock them up. You know what? And I do think they need to clearly there needs to be a penance. But also I'm like, it's only because I was lucky that's not me.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:13.701)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:20.09)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:26.927)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:28.216)
So how am going to other them by that much? And that's just one small example of many things that happen where it's like, who am I to act as if it's because I'm so holy that it hasn't happened to me yet?
Taina Brown she/hers (55:38.363)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last closing thought for me is, you, I think maybe we talked about this yesterday, but have you seen the trailer for the Melania movie?
Becky Mollenkamp (55:42.232)
This is really funny.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:55.354)
I have not, which is great. However, it is showing around town here, I think, because I've seen it on I went on Bandango or something the other day to look for a movie for for my child and I to go see. And I saw the Mulani movie. I was like, are you kidding me? I think it's at one of the theaters locally. So no, I've not seen it, but I do know it's showing. But my favorite thing is right now, the last I had read is the selling an average of 10 seats per theater. Not per showing per theater that showing like there.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:22.255)
or theater.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:24.674)
Basically, no one is going to see it. And I've seen the movie posters defaced and all of it. See, I was trying to sit in my loving kindness, now I'm like giddy
Taina Brown she/hers (56:25.891)
Nobody's watching it, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:36.698)
Well, I bring it up because it kind of feels like they're trying to relate to white conservative women again. They're trying to rope them back in after all the shit that they've pulled to alienate them.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:53.09)
Did you see that Usha Vance announced a pregnancy yesterday? Very interesting timing. Didn't know you could get pregnant from a couch. But anyway, as some people have said that, yeah. But yeah, it feels all very like, Donald Trump's having a real hard time here. Nobody likes what's going on. Let's throw a pregnancy in the White House out to see if that makes people or let's put this movie out about Melania and make her seem really amazing. I don't think it's working. I think people see through that.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:17.216)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:23.154)
but yeah, I do think they're trying really hard. mean, when you, Melania, like there, if I want to get to my loving kindness, she was, I believe, allegedly, so I don't get sued, very much a victim of the Epstein thing as well. Like, I mean, I look at her and all I see in many ways is all these other poor women I have seen who were children.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:46.542)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:48.078)
who have been, she just happened to unfortunately then follow through and end up getting married. And I think she's getting paid out of it. And there's this part of me that's like, I'm sure she's doing okay. But does that make up for the stories I've heard about what's happened with these women through the Epstein ring? No. And so I can find some loving kindness there. Like I'm not gonna see her movie, but I do think of her as a victim.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:58.008)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (58:07.793)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, we I forgot what we were watching but like the trailer came on like over the weekend we were I think it was all we were doing like true crime Friday hell no, the trailer came on and I was like who the hell asked for this nobody's asked for this
Becky Mollenkamp (58:15.758)
We're gonna go see it.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:22.474)
I said I think Melania is the only one who asked for I don't even know if Melania did I feel like yeah I have no idea it'd be interesting to find out like if we would ever find out the truth of why the movie happened I don't know if it is like a part of her because I'm sure there's a contract there on the demands that she's gotten for the second term because I don't think she was all I mean let's not forget the jacket I don't care do you like she doesn't care she doesn't want to be in this job it's she doesn't see it as a job other than enduring
Taina Brown she/hers (58:43.753)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:50.754)
that man and what did she get out of it? And I don't know if the movie was part of that or not. I mean, I wouldn't have that job for any amount of money in the world. So I guess more priority she get, she should get paid all the money she can get. But yeah, anyway, the biggest problem I see in all of it is they are, she is very much responsible for raising what looks to be yet another generation of this. that is, that's pretty unforgivable for me, but.
Taina Brown she/hers (58:50.765)
Yeah, yeah, which is a job in and of itself.
Taina Brown she/hers (59:18.957)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:19.918)
because Baron seems to be falling very much in line.
Taina Brown she/hers (59:23.309)
Yeah, she is both a victim and a perpetrator.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:27.374)
as is, can I just, Brady Mayhew hasn't read it. This just makes me think again of they were her property. White women need to read this book. Stephanie Rogers, Stephanie E. Jones Rogers. White women, we love to cling on to the victim part of our identity, but we got to remember the perpetrator part of our identity. there, that's the balani thing makes me think of that. Cause we are both, white women are both.
Taina Brown she/hers (59:52.961)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:53.334)
and we only want to accept and acknowledge one. And until you can accept and acknowledge the other, nothing changes.
Taina Brown she/hers (59:56.216)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (59:59.616)
Nothing changes.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:02.762)
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. No, just thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yesterday and today have been incredibly helpful. I'm still probably going to be in the recliner for a little bit, but I'm feeling better about it because I'm seeing a way out of it. And that's huge. So thank you. And thanks for sharing. I didn't think you were going to share anything about your mom publicly. So I'm proud of you for being vulnerable and sharing because I know that's hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:16.415)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:27.082)
Yeah, yeah, it was a rough cue for.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:33.218)
Q1 ain't looking so hot either, but we'll see. We're gonna find ways to make it better.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:35.508)
Yeah, yeah, because we have to put down our dog like less than a week before we had to rush down to Florida in July.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:41.422)
I know. And the other dog not that long before that. That was what? Yeah, so like that's a rough. You've had a lot. You've had a lot. You've had a lot. So we got to find ways. We're going to let's figure out. OK, in the call here, but let's figure out on our next call. I want to make sure that as we're looking at our plans for this year, where are we injecting joy? Like I want us to make that like a line item or a box or something in our plan where we think about what is the joy part? Where do we bring the joy?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:51.576)
2025 was a bitch.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:09.88)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:11.432)
We gotta manufacture it babes, like people, it's not just showing up on it so much. There's a whole lot that isn't so like, we gotta really be thinking proactively about how do we manufacture joy into our time. So, okay. Bye everyone.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:13.494)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:23.362)
Yeah, let's do it.
Bye, thanks for listening.