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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Andy Miller III: Hey, friends, this is Andy Miller coming to you from the more to the story. Podcast. For a live update
Andy Miller III: on a Thursday afternoon. This is Thursday, May 30, th 2024. And I just wanted to update you on a few things. I wanna talk about something that's happening in Methodist world, united Methodism, the Ivory Coast, a few announcements of things coming out from the Podcast also. I wanna talk about one like interesting discussion. That's happened. Another Pan Wesley and movement the Salvation Army. So if I get all those things in here that would be great, I might forget some of them along the way. So I'm just checking a few things. We're coming in
Andy Miller III: live on Youtube and Facebook, thanks to everybody who's been following what's been happening at the podcast lately. I'm not positive. I haven't looked at all the stats, but I looked last week, and it looks like we might be on track for our biggest month ever our biggest month ever now that that's a real blessing. So if you haven't already signed up for my email, let's say, Andy Miller, the 3rd.com. That's Andy Miller. I I
Andy Miller III: com. I'd love for you to sign up, and you'll receive regular content from me, and I'll send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching, and also another announcement.
Andy Miller III: just through tomorrow, after tomorrow evening, I guess at 1159, I have the 2 courses that I have on my website, one, it's called Heaven and other Destinations, a Biblical journey beyond this world. It's 5 sessions on heaven and hell and the intermediate state. I also talk about
Andy Miller III: Jesus's descent to realm of the dead. Those are the video-based sessions with discussion guides interactive forums that you can participate in and bonus content. So that's available. And it's 50% off
Andy Miller III: through tomorrow night. So through the month of May, and then also my course, contender, which is 6 sessions on the book of Jude. So I've had people
Andy Miller III: all over the world use these resources. I'm thankful for the opportunity to put them together. I'm thankful people use them, and they found them to be a blessing. I was just with somebody this past week. I've I'm I'm a tentative delegate for the convening General Conference gonna happen in Costa Rica for the Global Methodist Church. I say tentative because it still needs to be affirmed the way the Mississippi Western Tennessee
Andy Miller III: Conference is handling, is they they not? They're putting together a list of delegates, and then that will be affirmed at our annual conference in a couple of weeks. So at the moment I'm on track to go there, and I had one of the lay delegates come to me and just mentioned, like they're really looking for a resource on heaven.
Andy Miller III: And I just smiled nice and wide and say, Well, here you go. So I referred them onto my resource on heaven. And so that's been something that I've been working on for a while. But before I before I move too fast to just telling you about those type of things. I wanna make sure. Let you know that things are coming this summer from the mortis story. Podcast but first.st There was this big news story that came out yesterday, and I'm just gonna read it here for you. My thanks to Mark Twilley, who's documented some of this 1 million United Methodist exodus in one day
Andy Miller III: 1 million 1 million isn't amazing. So I'm just gonna read a little bit of Mark's article, United Methodism's largest overseas jurisdiction has voted to quit the denomination in response to the Church's divorcing sex sex from marriage and its governing general at its governing general Conference earlier this month.
Andy Miller III: the United Methodist Church in the Ivory Coast. Oh, man, what a I wanna go and visit all these people! I've always wanted to go there anyways. So if anybody is there, and you're looking for somebody who could come preach on heaven or the Book of Jude. I'm available for you. The United Methodist Church and the Ivory Coast voted on May 28th to exit the denomination
Andy Miller III: in 2,022. This conference reportedly had over 1.2 million members. So its departure means over 1 10th of United Methodisms.
Andy Miller III: United Methodism has in one day left at a nomination oddly United Methodist news Service reported the vote very briefly in an email news digest, but as of today has no article on its website, perhaps it will post a
Andy Miller III: fuller account later. So then, Mark quotes a European website that says this for reasons of conscious before God, then this is what apparently one the official statement was from the Ivory Coast, United Methodist Church, for reasons of conscious before God and His Word, the supreme authority and matters of faith and life. Don't you just love that? The annual Conference of the United Methodist Church of the Ivory Coast gathered for an extraordinary, extraordinary extraordinary session on May 28, th in Abuja
Andy Miller III: Abidjan, Abidjan, okay? And decided to quote, leave the United Methodist Church denomination. Now Mark also pulls in a very interesting quote. I couldn't help but see this. He kind of talks about some of the statistics, and where things are now like that. Now, there's 5.4 million members, and that's based on 2022 numbers. It'll be very interesting to see how that drops now to 4 million.
Andy Miller III: and Mark says this perceptive line, maybe they should recall Winston Churchill's warning after the Munich agreement. Here it is from Winston Churchill.
Andy Miller III: and do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the 1st sip.
Andy Miller III: the 1st foretaste of a bitter cup.
Andy Miller III: which will be pro offered to us year by year, unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigor. So then, Mark concludes, only divine intervention could restore united Methodism to moral health
Andy Miller III: and Marshall vigor
Andy Miller III: in the new age of post denominational America. Likely United Methodism with other denominations, will not meaningfully exist as a national body in 10 years. But Methodism, Africa, in whatever format, will continue to thrive. Now, at this point, we don't know like what's gonna happen with that denomination like with that group. If they'll join up with a global Methodist church or that kind of thing, but it certainly is a beautiful sign of the consequences of the actions taken by General Conference which I've covered on this site
Andy Miller III: pretty well here, and so I'm excited that there's an opportunity for this type of movement, and I'm looking forward to hearing about this
Andy Miller III: from other other groups as well. Alright, I also wanted to just highlight. I've I've told some people that I I like to emphasize that I've gotten some really beautiful responses from people. And I, I said, I would read them online. And I, here's how I do podcast the podcast generally, I record, like
Andy Miller III: probably
Andy Miller III: 6 to 8 podcasts in a day. So and then that will last for a month and a half, and I'll sometimes do it in a couple of days, so I'll kind of be stored up for a couple of months. So I've recorded most of the summers content. And so that will be. I'm I'm done in many ways through August, so I don't get to insert things that I hear along the way, and I try not to put too many dates in place, just because that makes it obvious. For when I wrote, but I had this message from Kevin.
Andy Miller III: cocurric kevin cocurick and he said this about podcast I 1st found your podcast when you interviewed Adam Hamilton and Robert and Fro about their vision for methodism and I've been listening. Since then.
Andy Miller III: in that time. I have also had the opportunity to grow my faith in lots of other ways, including being invited in my church to lead a Bible study through the Gmc. Catechism. What an awesome thing to do! Like to, you know. Pick up that category. And and if if you were to do that and just work through that slowly, I think. And and when you get to a place where you don't understand the words, or you don't understand what's going on.
Andy Miller III: you can, you can research it. I recommend you go into like a resource like Thomas Odin's systemic theology. But or or other places, just to kind of get basic definitions of words. But that's a great resource, a great place to start. And then he goes on, says, after completing that study, I and the rest of that class wanted to start something different. We'll finish tomorrow night with our study of Jude
Andy Miller III: built around your contender.
Andy Miller III: My time leading these studies has opened me to receiving a call to ministry, and I'm just starting on that journey. I just wanted to let you know how much I personally appreciate your more to the story ministry, and to affirm that it's impacting lives. Thank you for all you do.
Andy Miller III: Well, Kevin, thank you. Thank you for telling me. You know my my wife very kindly listens to most of our podcasts, and I'll talk about her and every now and then people in the office do, and I know some people at my local church also. Also. Listen, and I'm thankful for that. But it's a it's a real blessing to know the things that we're doing here are encouraging people, and you can imagine that I already encourage Kevin to attend Wesley Biblical Seminary. So if you feel God's leading you
Andy Miller III: in the full time ministry. Maybe that would be a bivocational or co-vocational way. You could do a court if you're in the Global Methodist Church. You could do a course of study and still receive a ordination, or I always encourage people, if you can, to pursue a Master's degree.
Andy Miller III: and I would really love for folks to you know, if finances are an issue, please let us know. I'm not guaranteeing that we'll be okay for everybody, but there are often our resources out there that you just might not be aware of, so we'd love love to check in you. I hope I have Kevin in the class. Someday. Hopefully. He'll still like me then. But anyways, it's it's a blessing to know that Jude's being used that way. I had a. I had a couple of people respond about women in ministry.
Andy Miller III: this person said, I'm a graduate of Southern Baptist Seminary. Yes, Albert Moeller. Now I was really glad that Albert Molar reached out to me. So it's kind of easy, he said. I was saved in as Rain Church. I am in an assemblies of God Church where they have women preachers. My question from your podcast how do you deal with women, preaching being over her husband when the man is to be her spiritual leader, the woman, the woman believe the lie in the garden, not the man.
Andy Miller III: This is the reason women are not to be in charge over her husband. Sorry. Few things missing there, according to my friends. Just curious how you deal with this
Andy Miller III: GN.
Andy Miller III: PPS. I'm thrilled to see the new domination taking a godly stand. Yeah, absolutely so.
Andy Miller III: I think I think there's enough. The healthy conversation about some of these things as it relates to headship in the home. And and I think if you listen, my podcast enough, you'd hear from me and the guests that I have that we wanna acknowledge the complimentary nature of the human body and human bodies, and the way men and women complement one another
Andy Miller III: and like, I don't. I think it's a little less clear as to how the impact of any sort of
Andy Miller III: complimentary nature of men and women in the home then transfers to church. There's an interesting articles in Christianity today about that, I think what I was wanted to emphasize in my convers. My brief podcast about Albert Moler's piece is that
Andy Miller III: I did, while I affirm that women, it seems, like women, were actively preaching in assemblies and church services, had ecclesiastical titles
Andy Miller III: in in the early church environment. And that's why I affirm, women being in various roles in ministry, I still am like working through myself like, Well, does that mean that a woman could never be over her husband in the Church. So I point you to some articles that in past podcasts I had with Murray, Vassar, and Matt O'reilly on that subject. So if you go into my feed, you can find some of that where I talked about that
Andy Miller III: at length. Okay, I wanted to also bring. Read one more. I need to respond this person most of the time. I try to respond to people who send me an email. But this is from Caleb Whistler, and I'm guessing I'm guessing, based on content. I know his father. This is good evening, Dr. Miller. My name is Caleb Whistle, Whistler, and I am currently studying Bible and theology at Kentucky Mountain Bible College, a great school, great school. God bless you all! There they have a bringle hall. I always love that idea
Andy Miller III: back to his letter. I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I really enjoy listening to your podcast I've heard of it before and started listening to it last week. And I've listened to quite a few episodes. I appreciate the variety of topics, views, and people you interview and have and have on the show. Thank you for the good work and emphasis you put out on education and practical content. God bless you and your work at Wesley Biblical Seminary in Christ. Caleb M. Whistler.
Andy Miller III: I'm guessing, Caleb, that your dad is Jay, one of my good friends, and we are at Asbury University together, and thank you. Thanks for reach out. I'm glad that God's a blessing to you, and you know, if you feel called to ministry. We'd love to get you over here at Wesley Biblical Seminary at some point, too, and thankful for the ministry of Amb.
Andy Miller III: Rob Poke. Hi! Your dad! You know, you might have even heard. A few weeks ago I had on one of your I I call him famous to me Drone Ben Kaike and one of the famous alumni from Kmvc. Talking about his book on the on Jude. So that's be all again. So I wanna make sure. People know that
Andy Miller III: through tomorrow night, may 31, st you can get all of my courses at 50% off at my website. And there's a link in the show notes here. I'm not sure how it actually comes out when I'm doing this live, but you should be able find it, if not just go to Andy Miller, 3rd.com and sign up for courses. This would be a great thing. I wanted to emphasize it now, just in case, people are looking for a study for 5 or 6 weeks in the summer Sunday school class or small group material.
Andy Miller III: Okay, I also want to highlight the few things coming this summer. So this summer on the podcast here's what's gonna be coming out slowly but surely. So I had this today. I was really I enjoyed this conversation I had with somebody I'd never met before, but really enjoyed his work. Patrick Shriner, on the Ascension and Transfiguration. I know that's pretty deep, but I think you all could appreciate it, and maybe just gives you a little taste for like for Biblical studies, and some of the things that he covers, and I love just thinking about the
Andy Miller III: the space and time, and how that all works together. And I thought he did a great job answering those questions. Next week.
Andy Miller III: I have Scott Klusendorf, who's coming on, and he has a great ministry. I think it's called Pro Life Trainingcom, and it's the title of that is being a persuasive pro lifer. So I've really. And I was honored to speak with Scott. He's been in front of a large large audiences is a national platform. He's great. Then I have my friend Billy Coppage. He's a graduate of Wbs. He's a doctorate from, I believe, Edinburgh or Durham.
Andy Miller III: Talking about orality, Mark Strauss, who's the vice chair of the Niv Translation Committee? I have him on to talk about Bible translations. I've seen some memes coming out lately that made me wish I would have put push that one forward sooner.
Andy Miller III: Also, I haven't interviewed him yet, but I'm really excited. This book by Eric Patterson, a basic guide to just the just war tradition man. I really, I really appreciate this book. And I met his wife who works for Rts in the Washington DC. Area, and Eric has a really kind of solid
Andy Miller III: political foundation, but also like thinking about the nature of war, and he just respond. I can't wait to get some of the questions out there. Then I have a Steve Elliot coming on us. There's a couple of Steve Elliott's in the Campaign, Wesley and World, but he's 1 who wrote a book called by Signs and Wonders the way like a
Andy Miller III: he and his church embraced kind of the moves of the spirit in their congregation. That was. This book was really helpful to me. When I serve as a local church pastor. I also have Jerry Walls, Dr. Jerry Walls coming on to talk about heaven, hell, and purgatory from a philosophical perspective. He's 1 of my old professors. He teaches now at Houston Christian University.
Andy Miller III: and then I'm still working on getting Bill Yuri and Chris bounds on. There's some of my friends in this tradition. And there, Bill Yuri has a new book on Christology as theology. I have a couple of things I want to talk to. Chris bounds about. So those things would be happening this summer as well.
Andy Miller III: Alright. This past Sunday. I was also at
Andy Miller III: Pine Forest Global Methodist Church in Dublin, Georgia, and their Pastor Brett Maddox is a great job he did. He gave. He offered a great sermon for that congregation and when I was there he has a resource table, and I saw I didn't know that seabed had this. It might be backwards on the screen, but I took. I took a couple Brett. Maybe I should send an offering, and in place of it. But did you know, like seabed, put out the Scripture wave salvation. John Wesley's famous sermon, and just a little bitty booklet like this. You could give it out. You could take it on a trip with you.
Andy Miller III: And I, often you, if you've heard me on the podcast I've often mentioned. If you want to understand Wesley's theology, I encourage you to check out that sermon. If you had to read one John Wesley sermon.
Andy Miller III: I know this would be it. This would be it. Scripture wave salvation, and a lot of times. If you get the Albert Outler edited volume. It's pretty expensive, pretty thick. But look at this, this is great resource. So you could probably find that seedbed. So there's free advertising for seabed. I'm excited. My
Andy Miller III: I have been contracted to do a book on heaven
Andy Miller III: with seed bed, and so that should start I should. I've I've already started working on it. But I I imagine that will be 2025, and that comes out maybe 2026. I'm pro. I'm always overly optimistic about writing projects and how fast they can get done. But anyways, that's going to be coming out. As well. Okay. 1. 0, I wanted to address
Andy Miller III: Steve Cort, who's an officer in the Salvation Army has a blog that's been going for a long time well over 20 years, called Army barmy.com
Andy Miller III: is a well-known voice within the savage army. And there's an emphasis there that I just wanted to address subtly. Now, this is the
Andy Miller III: I probably shouldn't even start this because it's a subject of my dissertation thinking about William Booth's ecclesiology, but he was kind of pushing back on people in savish army who are trying to make it more like a church, and not using titles like Pastor, not even like trying to imitate other churches trying to have true, but kind of just really being almost more of a what I would think of as a parachurch organization. Now
Andy Miller III: I think that has that has merit, that there's a maybe a good kind of intuition there, and that the savage army's distinction should be evangelism. And I, I suggested the most prominent doctrine in William Bousiology, was his doctrine of hell like it's most the most prominent throughout his writing thras, preaching throughout his the interviews, all the things that I've done I've tried to read is everything I know that's out there
Andy Miller III: about William Booth. And here's what here's my my challenge is that. And this is this is where I would push back on Steve a little bit here while wanting to retain the Evangelical, I mean evangelistic. When I say evangelistic thrust of the Salvation Army.
Andy Miller III: This would then this will be. This will be very present, for the gold Method church and any other church is trying to differentiate itself in this period. Like what what is it? How is it that we differentiate ourselves as denominations? Is it just the things that we're like? I'd hate for the global Methodist Church to just be defined as it stands on human sexuality. It's about so much more than that.
Andy Miller III: And so when William Booth started the savvy army, the 1st name was the East London Revivalistic Association, and then it became the East London Revivalistic Union, then the East London Revivalist Society. Then it became the East London Christian Mission. Then it became the Christian Mission. Then it became in 1878, 13 years later, the savvy army.
Andy Miller III: now somewhere in there most people think well, most scholars think, and I generally affirm this, so I don't think there's any particular reason to say that this date was it? In 1867, 2 years after he was going was probably the point where they had the 1st
Andy Miller III: kind of incorporation documents, and those were pretty clear, even though there was always a resistance to language of church, which is something that was going on even in Methodist bodies there was only one of probably a dozen Methodist denominations that use the word church. Instead.
Andy Miller III: you had the Wesleyan Methodist connection. That was the main body there. But then you had the Methodist new connection. That was a group that boosts were a part of the Methodist reformers, I could go on and on about all those that were there. So the word Church, or is like some resistance, that because there's also just the Church of England.
Andy Miller III: But at the same time there was other language that could be used to describe what people are doing. It could be sect
Andy Miller III: society. But William Booth was not wanting to be like any of those group. He wanted to be something completely different, and the assumption was that nobody was doing what he was feeling called to do. And I just suggest that's not really true. There were plenty of groups that were trying to do what William Booth was doing. He was very effective at it, and but at some point he said, this multiple times throughout his ministry.
Andy Miller III: and I have it documented. I could show you the sources, but it was like a regular pattern of something, he would say, kind of like a stump speech, he'd say, 1st they wouldn't go where they were sent. Then he says, second
Andy Miller III: they weren't wanted. 3, rd this is the key point. This is the absolute key point. He said
Andy Miller III: we wanted some of them ourselves. Now he use that in different. He sometimes he says we wanted some. We wanted them, some of them for ourselves in the business of saving others. Sometimes he says, I wanted them myself, but that the basic idea is that somewhere in there he realized
Andy Miller III: that he wanted some of them himself.
Andy Miller III: and thus, for the 1st 13, for the 1st 23 years they performed the sacraments. They performed religious rites.
Andy Miller III: They did all all the things that would be part of a church, ties, funerals, all all those type of things. So
Andy Miller III: sounds like a duck. Looks like a duck walks like a duck at it. It was a duck. It was. It was the savage army! It was acting like the Congregational home. With this emphasis, and so there! There's a bit of a paradox in that. William Booth created church, but he said it would not be made a church, but yet it was functioning as a church. And so in 1878, between 1878 and 1883,
Andy Miller III: he tried to combine, bring the savage army under the wings of another organization, so that it would be like a Protestant order to the Wesley Methodist, to the Congregationalists, or to the
Andy Miller III: Church of England, and those talks failed because Booth want. Basically, I could talk on about this
Andy Miller III: to remain in charge. He wanted to be the person completely in charge, and he was the autocratic head of his absolute military system.
Andy Miller III: So it was after these talks failed, when he couldn't find another body to come under
Andy Miller III: that he gave up the sacraments. So I've had people reach out to me in the last couple of weeks. Say, I didn't even know like people who've been in savish army their whole life. I didn't know the savage Army Practice Sacraments for the 1st several years. For the 1st 18 years, I think I just said 23 a minute ago. But my math was off 18 years. So yeah, absolutely did. And so. But it was after this period
Andy Miller III: where again. He just couldn't quite figure out, how do I not be a church? And so when he announced that he was not going to be, they're going to be doing away with the Sacraments and the Salvation Army, he said.
Andy Miller III: He became convinced that to be a church there must be sacramental observance, so you can look at the 1883 article from January 17, th where he says this, and to be and so he said, since we're not a church.
Andy Miller III: will
Andy Miller III: postpone, he says, then the sacraments, and he said, but perhaps we'll have light on this in the future. And then the 6 or 7 times that I've documented that he talks about this going forward.
Andy Miller III: He always says, I'm kind of undecided here, or maybe we'll change. I'm still trying to figure out. And it in my view, this probably he realizes, yeah, I've created church, and I'm not quite sure about. And then, later in life, he ends up saying multiple times that he regretted his decision that he looked. His biographer says he looked rather wistfully
Andy Miller III: at the Lord's Supper, remembering it and being disappointed that he wasn't partaking of it himself later in life. So there was there was that that movement so the savage army maintained, not being a Church all throughout his life, and really for decades and generations. In the early eighties.
Andy Miller III: And then I skipped a bunch of history here. But in the early eighties the savage army in the United States developed a mission statement that said it was a branch of the Universal Christian Church. Then, in 1991. The International army adopted that same mission statement. Then, in 1998, the Handbook of doctrine said, most clearly, the savage army is a church, and it said, that was implied by just the fact that we had doctrines, and then, in 2,007, this savage army came out with even a clearer statement, saying this like, so for the last 30, 40 years.
Andy Miller III: Establish Army
Andy Miller III: has explicitly said, It's a church.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. I think back to Steve's Point. If it's gonna be. And you know I'm not a part of the Salvation Army. In the same way that I was, I still considered my theology and kind of like the the way I operate as a Christian, very similar to being a Salvationist. But
Andy Miller III: If, if if the savage army is going to be a church, then it probably needs to follow William Boost own logic, that to be a church there needs to be sacco sacramental observance, and then also, like, maybe if going Steve's way, like, I think he's taking a natural other side, basically saying, we're not a church now, not not a church at all, but that misses the discipline function, that the savage army kind of promised to me.
Andy Miller III: as when I was dedicated as a junior soldier, and the like. So all of that. All this is kind of like a part of this context.
Andy Miller III: reality, that that denomination which was had this distinctive okay, it's going to be very different.
Andy Miller III: And in order to be very different, it was so different. I didn't want to claim being a church. And
Andy Miller III: that thing, I just think, created problems going forward for the fact that there was going to be like my dad, a 5th generation salvation like I was a 6th generation Salvationist. So like, if you have all that as a part of like the stew that's making at the savage army, it gets kinda complicated and it ignores the fact that it is indeed a nurturing congregation discipline. Body. So I just encourage, like those of savage army, to embrace the fact that
Andy Miller III: it claims to be a. You claim to be a church on the sacramental side. I know there's a lot that's tied up in that, but I I think for that reason. When I was operating as as a Salvation officer I we always just use the language church as clear as possible, cause that made the most sense to people who we wanted to come our way. I didn't think that most people were burnt by the church generally. In my context, I'm I imagine it could be different other places as well. So this is a little pushback. To some things I've seen online. So thankful for what's happened to Ivory Coast. Make sure you check out
Andy Miller III: things going on, thanks to those of you. Send me letters. I appreciate it if you could like. And subscribe, do all those things. That's a blessing to me. Thank you so much for checking this out. God bless you all.