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Host Scott Lollar is a 35 year veteran of the painting industry, and founder of Consulting4Contractors. The Beyond $1,000,000 Podcast serves as a touchpoint to painting contractors who have hustled, sacrificed, and worked hard to get their business to where it is today. Now, you need the guidance, expertise, experience and team to make it into the multi-million dollar company of your dreams. You'll hear stories and interviews from "Brothers of the Brush" and "Sisters of the Sprayer" who have been where you are and are charting a new course for their company's success. Listen in and go beyond $1,000,000!
From Garage Floors to Spray Guns: The Chris Soule's Entrepreneurial Journey in Cabinet Painting
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Introduction
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Scott L: Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in to the Beyond a Million Dollar Podcast.
Been looking forward to this conversation for a long time. Today I'm gonna be talking with Chris Soule owner of Clean Cut Painting in East Hampton, Connecticut. Chris has an intensity to him that I really appreciate, and it's helped him build a great company.
Looking forward to our conversation.
So, enough with the introductions, let's get this episode started.
My name is Scott Lollar and I'm a 35 year veteran of the painting industry where I've been part of growing several multimillion dollar painting companies. I have worn all the hats and have experienced everything you have experienced, are experiencing, or will experience. There is lots of chatter about getting to a million dollars, but what very few focus on is what it takes to blast through death Valley and create.
The multi million dollar company of your dreams. We don't focus on fads, tricks, or shortcuts. We focus on solid foundational business principles and data that deliver results. This is the Consulting4Contractors' Beyond A Million Dollar [00:01:00] Podcast.
[00:01:00] From Painting Apprentice to Business Owner
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Scott L: Welcome, Chris.
Chris: Thanks, Scott. Thanks for having me.
Scott L: So Chris, tell us a little bit about your painting journey your early years, how did you get here?
Chris: So, I worked for a couple painters while I was in high school. One of them was a family friend. His background was actually in auto body. So, I learned a few things about auto body in house painting from him. And I thought it would be an interesting career.
So while I was working for various painters, I was looking also for an apprenticeship at an auto body shop. And I was able to score one essentially sweeping floors and cutting up cardboard boxes, taking out trash, organizing parts. So I worked there for about seven years. And was able to work my way up eventually managing the paint department and doing all of the painting that came through that shop.
Scott L: That was right out of high school?
Chris: That was like about a year after I graduated high school.
Scott L: Okay.
Chris: It was kind of like right time, right place type thing.
Scott L: So how long did you work there [00:02:00] then? Total.
Chris: I was about seven years.
Scott L: And so there's comes a point where you decided to what
Chris: yeah,
Scott L: paint houses. That was a, that was a epiphany or what?
Chris: So, interestingly enough, the, the Clean Cut Painting started as a way to save money for a house. It was never really even like, I don't know why I would have started an LLC on a side hustle, but it was a side hustle to save some cash to buy a house. I also had an incredibly terrible boss at the body shop and was for sure that I could do a better job than him.
So, long story short, the end of my auto body career was during the 2008 2009 recession and the automotive industry got hit pretty bad. Our, the company that owned our body shop was actually an auto dealer. So I ended up losing my job. And decided that, you know, if I'm going to make the jump, it's now or never because if I got another job and went back in full time somewhere that the likelihood of that happening was slim to none.[00:03:00]
So I decided to take the risk and kind of go in, which was a very rocky start.
Scott L: So catalyst is the recession to, you hated your boss. You didn't say you hated him. You said you had a bad boss. And so you have this actual business going on the side. You like, let me go ahead and lean in and make this my full time gig. So you start, by doing what and who'd you do it with?
Chris: So I, in the early days, so we had a pretty gnarly winter. I got laid off in September. So we were kind of going into, of course, the slow season during a recession. But we had a pretty gnarly winter, so I printed out about 500 flyers and drove around to nice neighborhoods and popped them in the mailbox.
Which was a mistake that I found out later on. And then I got a phone call from the post office. The postmaster.
Scott L: Yeah.
Chris: Apparently those things need a stamp on them.
Scott L: Oh. Do you tell them like, Oh shoot, that stamp fell off? My bad.
Chris: Yeah, not [00:04:00] quite, but I didn't do it. I didn't do it anymore after that and turns out of the 500 houses that I dropped those flyers off, I didn't get one job.
Scott L: No kidding.
Chris: We were looking to target ceiling repairs from ice damming which is a, was a huge problem out here that year, but no, no takers.
Scott L: So you committed a crime and you got no work.
Chris: Right. Yeah.
Scott L: that's, man, that's, I'm, we can only go up from here, I think.
Chris: That's it. You know, that's, I think the whole, that's the entrepreneurial journey, right?
Scott L: There you go. All right. So you have no work out of your flyers, but you must, you must have found something to do.
Chris: Yeah. So my, one of my first jobs was, I had done some work for some family members and my mother in law, which actually my mother in law was my first customer. I recently found that invoice a couple of weeks ago and it was, it was pretty cool to see what projects I was working on then. Also the pricing that I was charging.
Scott L: Yeah.
Chris: family heavy family discount
Scott L: Yeah. It [00:05:00] goes into the museum, right?
Chris: Yeah
Scott L: Yeah.
Chris: so We ended up during that winter because there was so much storm damage We have a couple like insurance restoration companies in our area That was they were doing a lot of that work and it just so happened that one of them was doing work at my mother's house and Had mentioned the paint job and so she kind of dropped my name and long story short They reached out to me to do some some subcontracting for them for painting Which not profitable at all, but that definitely got me my kind of my kickstart I think the first year in business.
I might have done 50, 000 in sales which It's pretty light if you have expenses
Scott L: Yeah. anD this time you're doing whatever, residential, interior, exterior, what? Everything?
Chris: Yeah,
residential interior and exterior. I also did a fair amount of like, remodeling when I first started. Bathroom renovations trim, light carpentry which is interesting because the majority [00:06:00] of what I did on bathroom remodeling was, was learned off of YouTube late nights.
Scott L: Isn't that the way you're supposed to do it?
Chris: yeah, I think so.
Fortunately I'm mechanically inclined, so I'm, I'm able to figure a lot of things out and we didn't have any. Any issues with those jobs that I had done. And I had another contractor that I kind of was networking with that helped me out on like my first tile shower job. So.
Scott L: Alright, so you're, you're in business, you're a business owner. Woohoo! And it's slow going. So what, what, what's the next, you know, whatever, four or five years. I've, I've met you about four years ago, I'm guessing. So, so what were the, what were the two, you know, 2010 through 2020? What, what, what was those 10 years like?
Chris: got out of remodeling. It to me is just way too involved. And for us to train employees to be able to handle that type of work without me being present on those jobs was near impossible. So we decided to stick with [00:07:00] full time paint only. I worked for the restoration company for several years, and then it got to the point I was a sole proprietor, and they were requiring workman's comp insurance.
Which, at the rate that they were paying us, we wouldn't have been able to offset that. They were not our only customer, but a good majority of the work that we had done. So, we, we also at the time were kind of building throughout the first couple years building some clientele which I had no systems in place to retouch with them.
We were just fortunate that, you know, this is, smartphones were kind of just becoming a thing where Google reviews maybe weren't as important as they are today. So we were able to link up with a, with a couple customers that kept us busy and started referring us. And slowly started building that clientele list over a period of time.
Scott L: So you got like, you know the recession to when I met you like in 19 or 20 or something But probably 19 that you got a that's a pretty long time.
So we just kind of struggled along. Is that what you did?
Chris: Yeah, I mean, I'm [00:08:00] not sure that I realized how little money that I was making. So we had, I mean, we had a variety of different work through different contractors. We had linked up and done some new construction that was subcontracted through another painter we met through Sherwin Williams.
Which turned out to be a huge mistake. We also had a like homeowners association management company reach out to us about an exterior uh, on a condo complex. I believe it was like 34 units. So we did that project and that was kind of like, I would say like the first like time that I felt like I was, I had owned a business.
Where I needed to hire and have more than just like a helper with me.
We got our first shop in like 2013, which was a complete dump. I mean, this place was, was, it was a place to house the tools, and that's, that's about it.
We did some spraying in the shop, but It was definitely not a place where, where we could easily achieve some of that type of work. And we were there for about four years. [00:09:00] And then the landlord that I had at the time had built a new building in town, which was like kind of more of a state of the art commercial type space.
And so we made the move there in 2017. That's where we are today.
Scott L: So why did you feel like you needed a shop? Why was that important to you?
Chris: So glad you asked this question. So this, so, back in the day, cell phones they also had something called landlines. And my office line was here at the house. And I could not stand hearing that thing ring when I was done for the day. Because you just can't ever get away from work. It's just, the phone rings, you're trying to have dinner with the family.
It's Saturday, you're about to head out, go hang out with friends, and the thing's ringing that you feel obligated to answer the damn thing. So to separate work and business, I decided to get the business out of the house. Because I need some balance in my life, and it was the best decision I ever made. It was worth every dollar.
Scott L: that's great, but you know you can turn the ringer off on those phones, but that's another story. Alright, so you got a shop [00:10:00] but you sound like you still aren't sure how much money you're making You're, you're, you're just not sure who you are, what you're doing. So, you know, how did you get, you know, what was the next step?
Or how did you get here?
Chris: Well, I found out a whole bunch of stuff that we shouldn't be doing because, you know, so understanding numbers is obviously critical in this industry, and that is not something that I was aware of before I started working with you. So, to me, I was making money because I had money in the bank account, and so I could afford to have that shop and afford to get a new van or some equipment.
What's interesting about that is I'm fiscally conservative. So of course there's money in the bank, but that means nothing. The first job that actually job costed was in 2017 on the new construction homes that we had done. We took over from the developer about halfway through the neighborhood.
I think we did seven houses in that neighborhood. On [00:11:00] all seven houses total, we made 500.
Scott L: Wow.
Chris: Not on each house, like total. There was a couple things that we didn't get paid on because my paperwork wasn't tight. And you know, obviously after running those numbers, our prices went up and they bailed.
Scott L: So you actually made 500 bucks after expenses after you paid yourself or 500 bucks period.
Chris: Well, it's funny, I wasn't on payroll at the time, so 500 bucks period, I don't think that included after I paid myself
So paying myself consisted of cutting myself a check when I needed money. I was not on payroll. There was no consistency in that. Going on payroll was another good move that I did because I have a consistent income now.
Scott L: Yeah. So you're taking a draw. You found out new construction's maybe not the best. That even wasn't the issue. The issue was you weren't charging enough, it sounds like.
Chris: Right, yeah. I mean, the thing is with developers, I mean, most of them are like, who's the cheapest person? I should have had, you know, [00:12:00] alarms should have gone off when I got on that job and I was the second or third painter in that neighborhood of 14 houses. I mean, that should have been a red flag. There's a
reason why they lost their first couple painters. They were probably smarter than me because they bailed on the first two houses. Took me seven to realize it.
Scott L: No, you're an overachiever,
Chris: While that
Scott L: all right,
Chris: we were working on that condo complex project, too. So, like, we had money coming in from that. Very little coming in from the new construction. So, like, in my mind, I'm like, oh, we got a ton of work.
We can stay busy. But,
Scott L: but you're a non profit
Chris: Non profitable. Yeah, we were a non profit.
Scott L: Yeah. All right. So when I met you and I don't, I suppose I should know when we met, but you were
Chris: Just before COVID.
Scott L: Just before COVID. Okay. You were, so you were pretty deep into cabinets. So when was that transition or what, when, when was the cabinet division born?
Chris: So we, we had done [00:13:00] cabinets from time to time. I'm not sure it was as hot of a market as it is right now. But the one thing that I love about cabinets is it's very similar to auto body finishing in the process and the way that we tackle these things. The problem that I had at the time when we first started doing it is that I didn't have the knowledge base on what cabinet grade finishes were.
And so we were using like architectural paints. Particularly like a Benjamin Moore advance. The downside to that is they, the dry time is, is just absolutely obscene. I mean, it's a 16 hour recoat. I'm sure you could probably lighten that up a little bit if you're in a very dry climate. We're not, we're in Connecticut.
It's very humid here. And so production wise, you couldn't really put them out fast enough to really make great money on them. And then I got introduced to a Sherwin Williams product, which was a waterborne lacquer, which was a huge improvement over like an architectural finish. Although, you know, looking back after doing this for several years, it's probably one of the worst ones on the market.
[00:13:58] The Journey to Becoming Cabinet Experts
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Scott L: Yeah. So, [00:14:00] we were introduced by Graeme Clohosey a big dog painting outta Boston, is my recollection. And I talked to you and at the time you were doing all sorts of things, exterior, interior, your spraying cabinets and you're doing all sorts of things.
Is, is that, is that my, am I remembering that correctly?
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And we, I think the, the main reason why, I mean, I had been talking to Graeme for some period of time. And the reason that I had mentioned looking for a coach with him is because we had been stuck at the same revenue for three years. There was no growth. And we just weren't able to kind of take the next leap that we needed to do to continue to grow.
Scott L: My recollection was that you were really enjoying or really had a passion for the cabinet side. And by that time, I think you had worked out a better system. Is that true?
Chris: So we had, we've gone through several different product manufacturers to get to the current system that we're on now. And I think just before, probably about a year before we linked up, I bought our first new spray booth. [00:15:00] So when we bought, when we got our shop and we moved in, we had like, I mean, this is the most space we've ever had.
So in my mind, I have an auto body. finishing background. I'm like, Oh, we're definitely getting a spray booth. Well it just so happens that there was a cabinet shop in town here that had gone out of business several years prior and somebody had just bought it and they were turning it into like leaseable space.
And so they had an estate sale there and we were passing by after work one day and I'm like, we should just pop in and check it out. It's a cabinet shop. Maybe they got some tools or whatever. So we went in there and they had a spray booth in the back corner. I think I paid 600 for this. I mean, it was a piece of shit, but it's it worked.
It worked for what we need. It was an open face, not a big one, but it worked for us to be able to spray in our, in our facility. So we got that, got it set up and hooked up and we used that for about a year. And because we had a spray booth, it opened us up to a lot more opportunities as far as what we were able to do and how many jobs we were able to bring into the shop.
So after we've had that for a couple years, I decided [00:16:00] that I was going to purchase a new spray booth. And we did that for in like a lease type fashion. It was a lease to own. The nice thing about that is it's essentially you're writing off 100 percent of the payment rather than just depreciation.
So it kind of worked out. We had a payment, but that payment was tax deductible which was huge. And, and the pricing on it wasn't even that bad either. I think we paid between 13 and 15, 000 for that. I think the first year that we had that in there, I mean, we probably did 100, 000 in cabinets just out of that booth.
So in my mind, it's like, you know, you invest 15, 000 and then do you get a hundred thousand in revenue. The nice thing about that too is that it eliminates some on site finishing. You know, we spray boxes on site, but it gives us the ability to spray stuff, you know, back at the shop. We were pretty active on Instagram at the time.
And so we posted a lot of shop videos. And we had a contractor reach out to us about finishing their cabinetry. So they sent a job through to [00:17:00] us and we were able to finish it pretty quickly for him. And then kind of linked up with him and he started feeding us some cabinets.
Scott L: All right. And at that time you also found yourself not wanting to do some things like exterior. You were sort of stretched is the way I remember. Is that true?
Chris: Yeah, so at that time, I think when we linked up, I think I only had one employee, we might have had two, but if we did, that second one was like a brand new hire. And the issue with the exteriors is that we have to deal with weather issues, right? So if, if it looks like we might or might not get rain, we don't really know where we're going to be or if we're going to be able to complete the project and for us to keep a steady schedule for anyone that's working for us, we need to kind of know what the weather is going to be.
So in my mind, it was kind of more of a hassle than it was worth. I think we dropped exteriors about a year after we started together
and I, and kind of shifted more to interior repaints and cabinet finishing with cabinet finishing being kind of a priority.
Scott L: Yeah. So, you [00:18:00] went almost all in with cabinets. You would do some interior work as it popped in, but essentially your marketing, your Instagram, all of your, all of your attention was focused on cabinets, and you became known as the cabinet guy in your area, and you've honed a system that you guys could turn cabinets fast and really nicely.
Tell us a little bit about the system that you use today, and what was that journey like as you're honing your cabinet skills?
Chris: So it's interesting once you start job costing to see the profit margins that you're able to pull on certain types of work. In our market, cabinets are our highest profit margin and they require very little access to the house, right? So we only have to work in one corner of an area of a house.
And because we have the spray booth back at the shop, we're able to kind of split the teams where we have a site team and a shop team. So also with cabinets in Instagram, the spray videos and that kind of background, those videos have [00:19:00] way more of a reach than just like a picture of a nicely painted room.
And so we started gaining some traction and some following on that. So we, we essentially were, okay, we're a cabinet painting company that happens to paint interiors as well. And we're going to drop exteriors because then we don't have to deal with the weather. And by doing that, we were actually able to double our revenue that year,
or really close to it.
And when we started job costing and looking back at, okay, what made us money and what didn't make us money, we see that cabinets are the most profitable work we have. It's also a very hot market for that in our area. I think probably nationwide. You know, the reality is for people to replace cabinets, it costs a lot of money.
Generally when you do that you're gonna get a lower quality product than what you had existing. So unless you're looking to change your complete layout of your space, cabinet painting makes sense.
Scott L: yeah. All right. That's great background. So let me let me lead you a little bit because there's so many amazing things about your company that I want listeners to get a [00:20:00] little taste of.
[00:20:01] Building Culture of Values and Growth
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Scott L: Talk to me a little bit about the journey on focusing on your culture, your mission, your values, because it's so focused today, what caused you to feel like you needed to really make that a priority and how were you building your team using that?
Chris: So that was kind of something where our hands, our hands were forced in that, which realistically, if I knew today, if I knew years ago, what I know today, I would have done it a lot sooner. You know, we had some core values that were kind of just very loose and kicked around and like, you know, rah, rah, didn't really mean anything.
We didn't make decisions based on them. In 2021, we had Um, shit hit the fan at our, at our business. So we had an incredibly toxic culture one domino piece fell and it just started taking out everything with it. So we had an employee get hurt on a job and ultimately he ended up resigning but he was out for about three months before [00:21:00] that happened, which put me back in the field.
I had not been in the field for at least a year, year and a half prior to that happening. And that left us with either two or three additional employees. Another employee put his notice in shortly after that happened. And we tried to keep him although he wouldn't take the, he didn't take the offer that we offered him, which in hindsight I'm actually really glad that he didn't take that.
We had let another one go because we had multiple issues with him coming and smelling like weed, which, you know, is kind of a non negotiable for us. You can't come here high. That left us with one employee. We were working on hiring at the time and I was looking for a very specific type of employee.
Which just kind of reaffirms like the, the law of attraction because I was actually able to find a really, really smart kid that wanted to come in and learn the trade. I think he's more interested in probably the business aspect than the painting aspect. But it, it worked out. Well, when we brought him on, we started like, I think we hadn't even made it through the first week before him and the remaining employee from the original [00:22:00] team were butting heads.
And it, it was just incredibly toxic. So it was to the point where I decided like, okay, well, we're either going to keep the toxic employee and lose the potential for a bright kid that's smart and dedicated, or we got to let the toxic guy go. So we chose to let the toxic guy go. You know, at this point the culture was so toxic looking back that none of those employees I would rehire today.
I should have probably made that move a long time ago. But what I did when I let him go is start really implementing and really kind of thinking to myself what are important values that we need this team to kind of live, breathe, eat and die by. And so we created our new set of core values that really, I think reflect our business well, and the type of people that we're looking for.
And it makes decision making a lot easier when you have employees that maybe don't quite fit the bill and maybe they're good people. They just don't fit the bill for what we're looking for. And it kind of gives us some guidance on that. Interestingly enough, the last, I would say 18 to [00:23:00] 24 months has been pretty brutal because we've taken it from four employees back to one and then rebuilt from there, which hasn't been an easy journey, but we've been able to really dial in some some pretty effective employees as far as their dedication to us, which we never had of that level of dedication with prior teams.
Scott L: Can you share with us your values, putting you on the spot?
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So we call it it's our kind of our points system, right? We're just completely system based. So the, the points is an acronym for positivity, ownership, integrity, never satisfied, teamwork, and service.
Scott L: Awesome. I wanted to pause here and some of you are probably trying to put two and two together and try to figure out how big Chris's company is. And so he's just sharing with you, it's up to four, down to one. Chris is a very efficient, highly profitable, but small at this point, company.
So, [00:24:00] revenue, about a half a million or so, and growing again. But I do want to kind of take a time out here and what Chris just shared is really valuable. When he had that first team, he was excited about some parts of it. And he didn't realize how toxic they were because I think he was trying to shore it up, you know, make it positive.
Let's, we can do it. And the person that. Resigned, did him a favor because it gave him really a chance to hone in on the remaining ones. And he did have a toxic environment, so he rebuilt entirely. And that next stretch was really tough because he was hiring all brand new people that had never painted. He's take taken only people who've never painted anything and made them painters.
So it was difficult, but the reason why we work together is because of his fiscal strength. He's very [00:25:00] sound in his money management and he had the money to invest in coaching and growing. So, he's done great there, but for some of you that have a toxic environment, you need to really look at that and understand that is a barrier to growing your company and it, and then you really need to resolve that.
So, okay Chris, the other thing that happened is you focused on cabinets and got rid of exteriors and really in my opinion, didn't do almost any interiors. And so then you were left to your lead flow and your, your close ratio and all that for cabinets only. And then you had moments of wanting to grow and open up your service mix. You're doing more in N tiers now and most recently starting to do some select exteriors with subcontractors. Is that accurate?
Chris: Yeah, so we are going to be opening up the exterior services. That is going to be done I would call it a hybrid model, but probably most exclusively for subcontractors. The labor, pool right now is a little jacked up [00:26:00] and so for us to limit how much management we're going to have on that is just, I think it makes sense to offer the service and be able to sub it out with the exception of like maybe really high end clientele or repeat clientele.
think it's an, it's an easy way to increase revenue with minimal investment on our end.
Scott L: Yeah. what's your future look like? 2024. What are your projections? What are you doing to increase your reach and drive your revenue?
Chris: So 2024 projected revenue is going to be 900 plus. And we're going to do that in a couple different ways. One, we are going to continue to push cabinets to the extent that probably back up to with our first toxic team, to that level where we were able to complete two or more per week. That's going to be our primary focus for everything in house.
We are going to offer exterior painting as a, an additional service, although we're going to move into like a sub model for that but I, I feel like we could easily pull on another 300, 000 plus [00:27:00] just in exteriors. And a season especially if our hands aren't tight and we're not the ones doing it, where we can kind of sub those out.
And then we're going to continue doing some interior painting as well. I think that's going to be a combination of sub and in house. My preference would be to sub pretty much everything but cabinets, so that we can keep our focus where we're strong. If we are doing interiors in house which isn't out of the question, but I'm still kind of determining how that's going to look,
I think we would have to build an interior paint team because our current team is not strong on interiors.
Scott L: Yeah. They were hired and trained to do cabinets.
Chris: Right, yep.
Well, we are about halfway through this episode of the Beyond A Million Dollar Podcast from Consulting4Contractors, and we still have some great content left for you before we get to that, though, I wanted to let you know about some resources that are available to you via the show notes. You'll find links to our website, social media outlets, and highlights of this show.
You'll even be able to schedule a discovery call with [00:28:00] Scott and our team to find out how consulting for contractors can help your contracting business. It's very low pressure. We'll ask you just a couple questions, see what your current situation is, and then get you started toward the contracting business of your dreams.
The best part about it, it's completely free. So just click on the link in the show notes, or you can visit our website www.consulting4contractors.com and reach out to us there. Again, that website is www.consulting4contractors.com. Now here's the remainder of the show.
Scott L: The other thing I wanted you to share a little bit about is your sales process for cabinets. It's unique and gets you an on site close ratio of, I don't know, north of 80 percent I'm guessing. Tell us a little bit about how your sales process is when people want an estimate for cabinet painting.[00:29:00]
Chris: So since I'm the only one driving this ship, obviously I have limited resources as far as my time and availability to go look at jobs, which is incredibly time consuming. And actually I would say the, probably the pandemic pushed us into adopting this strategy and it just ended up working out so well that we never went back.
And that was by offering virtual consultations. By being able to have a conversation with clients about what they can expect throughout the project, kind of walk them through our systems and be able to pretty accurately give them a ballpark of where the project's going to fall in. We're able to kind of eliminate time wasters.
So when we talk about a close ratio between 75 and 80%, we don't use the consultations as part of that. That's more or less maybe a prequal phone call. That's just scheduled, but I think it positions us in a way that we have so much knowledge and expertise in the area that when they meet with another painter that we're kind of already set the bar so high that it's hard for, you know, So, I [00:30:00] don't know the exact ratio of how many people set on site appointments from those virtual consultations.
I do know from the ones that we go out and look at after we've done that phone call, that took our close ratio from 39 percent to 75 80%. You know, I think this year's a little bit lower than 80%, but that's also total jobs bid, not just cabinets.
Scott L: Yeah. So, you allow people to, to book a consultation with you which is via the phone, correct? Correct.
Chris: Yeah, we do it over the phone. I have done video chats in the past, but generally we have them answer a form with all of the questions and information pertaining to their products. So we have a good understanding of what they're trying to do. And then they would upload photos to the scheduler.
We use Acuity. And then once we have that, we can kind of review that information. If there's anything additional information, we need additional photos. You know, if there's something that needs to repair, then we would ask for specifics on those photos. For the most part, the four photos that are allowed to upload is enough for us to kind of get an eye on the project and get an idea for the scope.
Scott L: And so you're counting [00:31:00] openings, doors and drawers.
Chris: Yeah, we just tell them to give us a count of all of their doors and drawers. Essentially, if the piece moves, opens or closes, then we want a count of that. And then we kind of just factor in, you know, an average per piece that kind of, I would say within 90 percent accuracy will get us like right in where we need to be for the pricing.
Scott L: And so you're giving them a range during the phone consultation, tell them a little bit about your process and if they don't hang up on you and say that sounds pretty good, then what happens?
Chris: Then we would schedule them for an on site. I'm not, I'm not a salesman. I am an educator, I guess I would say over a salesman. So what my, my point on those calls is to educate the client into exactly what we can do, what we will do and what that process looks like. Um, I don't generally push for those onsite appointments on that call.
Like on a say, Hey, listen, you know, this is the range. You can kind of get a gauge with their response if it was something they were expecting or not and then from there I [00:32:00] will send them a follow up email just thanking them for their time and send them a little bit of information on what we discussed on that call as well as our warranty information just to kind of position ourself a little bit further and then I will give it a day or two before I follow back up with them.
There are some people that want to schedule on the spot as far as getting out to do an onsite consultation, which I'm happy to do. I just, I never push for it. I don't like being pushy and salesy and I know sales guys will probably tell me that that's not the correct way to do it. That's just not me.
It's not my style.
Scott L: So then you go out there and confirm that what they told you and what you told them is accurate and you give them a final number?
Chris: Yeah, so we, when we actually submit the bid for the project, we're going to do it off square foot pricing. So we built out a template in estimate rocket that basically covers like the cabinet painting project with like various options that we're able to add to that, you know, whether it's a hinge upgrade or changing hardware location but there's a standard [00:33:00] formula that we're using.
We, where we enter the square footage of the kitchen and it's going to spit out a price. So when we get out to do an onsite consultation, they're getting their estimate on the spot. There's no, like, waiting two weeks, calling, following up, wondering where the painter went. We come out, it's about 15, 20 minutes, show them some samples, walk them through how we're going to stage it.
Every kitchen's a little bit different, how we vent, how we set up. So we kind of walk them through that, take the measurements, put it into the system, and email it to them on the spot.
Scott L: Awesome. And at that moment, you're talking about a 75 to 80 percent close ratio once you get to that moment.
Chris: Right.
Scott L: Great. I wanted you to talk a little bit about your wow factor. How did that terminology come about? How are you communicating and living it? And what does it mean? What are the things that make a wow experience?
Chris: was kind of developed off of accumulation of information from all types of other businesses. And essentially what it is, is kind of, I guess we'll call [00:34:00] it our customer service or our customer experience. Our point while we're, I mean, we are a service based company and the one spot where service based companies generally lack, especially contractors is in that little word service.
And so what we try to do is just provide an exceptional service for our customers through that customer experience. Essentially the premise of that is what story do they tell about us when we're gone?
[00:34:25] Enhancing Marketing Through Customer Experience
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Chris: I Think the most, one of the strongest forms of marketing, you know, it's Google reviews are great, you know, ads, depending on how they're set up, they can work.
But the strongest form of marketing for us is getting the referrals from clients and getting them to leave those five star reviews. And we do that through the wow experience. So there's a lot that goes into it. I guess examples of that would be handwritten cards, right?
So when we finish a project, we will handwrite a card to a customer and put a personal touch on that, right? So if their dog was hanging out with us while we were [00:35:00] working and his name is David, we mention David in that, in that card. another example is kind of using gifts for certain clients as like kind of a thank you.
So what we did for a period of time we still do it. We just don't, I guess, do it to the extent. There are select customers that we know are going to tell that story about Clean Cut Painting and those ones we're going to target with kind of a, we'll call it like a care package. So the care package would be, you know, we finished up the job.
A week or two later, we're going to send them a handwritten card, thanking them for their business. Really want the customer to feel valued in that transaction. It says I, transaction, I guess this would be the wrong word too, because we don't want it to feel transactional. We want to develop relationships, longterm relationships with our clients.
About two to four weeks after that card goes out, you know, the sizzle of the kitchen. Particular, I guess we'll use kitchen as an example, kind of sizzles off. You know, they come home. They're blown away. They love their kitchen well that shine kind of wears off and they're kind [00:36:00] of going back to their regular life.
Well, how do we re engage them? Well, they're gonna come home one day and maybe there's a box sitting on their door and it's got a cutting board in it And the cutting boards got their name. So Welcome to the Jones kitchen or the Jones kitchen, right? And that kind of puts a personal touch on it, you know gifts in general.
There's a great book on this It's called Giftology. If anybody's interested in reading that that's it's a really good example of kind of using gifts to help the referral process but what we're doing is developing relationships on like a friendlier term with our clients rather than being transactional, you know, we want to provide of like value and solve problems for our clients.
Whereas the, I think the mentality of a lot of business owners is what's in it for me and how much can I make? And it's not about you. It's about your client. It's about your client's experience. And so that wow experience is how we kind of do a much better job than I guess we used to at being able to retain and re engage those customers.
Scott L: And one of the [00:37:00] things that Chris does is if you noticed, he puts the customer's name custom creates these one offs with the customer's name, not with the company name. So a lot of people send tchotchkes and cutting boards and Ginsu knives or whatever you send with your company name, right? Because you're trying to keep top of mind.
And he's actually giving a gift that is special to them with their name on it. And it makes a lot of difference. You also have a touch up kit that you leave behind that's customized. What is, what, what did it take to create that? And, and when, where do you, when do you leave that?
Chris: Yeah. So the touch up kit we don't generally tell people they're going to get one. But because we're doing, you know, I would say half of the kitchens that we do are a custom color, we leave them with little touch up bottles that have a little brush, a little ball shaker ball inside them and a little brush for them to address their touch ups.
The kit started out as a couple touch up bottles or a touch up bottle in their color and then I don't even remember where I got the idea, but I started thinking about you know, we would [00:38:00] get an email, how do I how do I take care of these cabinets and we would give them a document on how to clean and care for their finish But then I thought to myself, well, wouldn't it make sense to give them a care package?
I mean generally kitchen cabinet jobs are probably on average 6, 000 plus dollars to refinish a kitchen depending on the size and so we ended up getting boxes made these do have our logo on them more as like a touch point like if somebody sells the house and this Cleaning slash touch up kit is underneath the kitchen sink.
You know, the new owners have that and you know they may think oh, I got another room that I want to have painted. So our logos there. So we ended up building out these custom boxes inside the lid when you open it has the care instructions. It also has a branded microfiber And a sample of the cabinet cleaning product that we use, is the only one that I've tested that I know for a fact will clean almost everything off of these cabinets and make them shine like the day that we're done, as well as a touch a bottle or two, if we're doing an accent color.[00:39:00] So we leave that the day that we're finished with the project. So the customer doesn't really know they're getting it. They come home, there's a nice box sitting on their countertop. They open it up and they're like, oh, wow. And we've gotten great feedback on that.
Scott L: Yeah. The other thing that I think has, is really interesting is your using standard colors. What is your position on that and how has that helped your business?
Chris: Yeah, so standard color. So whenever we get cabinet paints mixed they're always a, they're always a custom color. It's always a custom mix because we're not using a Benjamin Moore or Sherwin William product. It is a, you know, our most recent product that we use is is Malisi, which is an Italian's coating.
Every color has to get custom mixed in order to do that. So in order to eliminate waste and kind of save some money on materials as well as streamline the process for people choosing their colors. We created six standard colors that we offer. We say we offer them as a discount. It's not really a discount but we charge [00:40:00] more for custom colors because we know if I'm doing, scott, if I'm doing your kitchen and you want some color that we've never done, we're going to overpurchase that product, right?
When we order Malisi, it can take up to a week to get that product. And if we, for whatever reason, have to do an additional color, we're not happy with something, maybe we ran a section and we have to apply more paint, we can't run out halfway through the project because it could take a week to get that.
The other cool benefit to doing those standard colors is I think people appreciate the fact that it's very easy to pick a color if you're looking for white, we offer three whites. There's really no reason to go outside of that unless you're working with a designer who talked you into some crazy white that has just ever so much of a slight change in whatever reflectivity.
But We actually, after every fourth or fifth project doing, say, Benjamin Moore White Dove, which is one of our standards, we have enough to do an entire kitchen. We're not purchasing the materials for it. Another upside to that is because 90 percent of our kitchens are standard colors, we do a lifetime warranty.
And in the off chance that we ever have a warranty issue [00:41:00] or a touch up or something to fix on a job, we pretty much have the paint sitting on our shelf right now. Which makes our turnaround time and service on that much faster.
Scott L: Yeah. I actually think helping the homeowner narrow down their options by just saying here, here's six pick one, I think is probably very liberating and freeing for a lot of people. And I think it's been, it's really great because for a long time where he's located, the turnaround for paint was just, sometimes very frustrating.
So it's really streamlined that ordering process.
The other thing that I know you have done with your "Wow" experience is your customer follow up and satisfaction, really to almost to an nth degree. How have you followed up and gotten feedback from your customers and what is the feedback?
[00:41:47] Effective Communication and Setting Goals
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Chris: Yeah. So part of the wow experience our, our crew leads are essentially educated into having a conversation with the client at the beginning of the project. So our goal is a five star [00:42:00] experience. And if at any point we're not tracking for that, we just, we want some feedback to let us know that's kind of how the project starts.
Another thing that the teams are instructed to do is the morning they are about to start the van and head out, they're texting the customers, Hey, just want to let you know, this is Paul from Clean Cut Painting. I'm on my way to your project I should be there in about 30 minutes. That communication is super important with clients that are either arranging their schedule to accommodate you being able to get into their house.
And it's not overly done, but, you know, end of the day touching points with the customers. You know, hey, we got, we're on track today. We were able to get the primer on and we're looking at top coating tomorrow. Really excited for you to see your kitchen. It brings a personal touch to the experience.
Another example of that WOW experience is something that we called CARE. And so CARE is an acronym for Character, Attention, Resource, and Extremism. Scott's known me long enough to know that I'm, I'm an extremist, right?
So everything that I do, I do it to an extreme way. The [00:43:00] character is essentially, you know, how the employees are acting in, in these people's homes, right? The people are allowing us to come in into their very personal spaces and how we act while we're there is super important. Attention is the amount of attention that we're giving to these customers.
So we're instructing, you know, our team is very young. Eye contact, for example, you know, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with employees at various stores where like, we just don't get the eye contact we used to get. And so that attention and feeling like the customer is the most important thing in the world, because they are, during any interactions with them, goes a long way.
Being a resource, being resourceful and being a resource for the customer. If the customer needs something, how do we make that happen for them? Basically, being the guy, right? The being the guy, I can't tell you how many customers call me looking for referrals for certain services that we may not do, or we may not even know anyone that does.
That does that but we are the first call that they're making because we have built that trust with them And [00:44:00] the last one is extremism and I don't mean walk in there with a hatchet and be a nutbag, it's essentially anything you're doing you're doing it in an extreme fashion. So when you said to the nth degree That's what that is.
That's that extremism like we are doing everything we do a hundred and ten percent That's our right into our culture when we talk about never enough never being satisfied. It's a hundred and ten percent. Always moving forward. How can we do it better?
Scott L: That's great stuff. You've already talked a little bit about your 2024 goals and so that's your one year. Where do you want to take this? Do you have any ideas of what this looks like three or five years down the road? Is that, is that something you're even thinking about?
Chris: So it's it's been interesting setting these goals. So one thing that I realized I think over the past probably two months is as I'm setting these goals that they need to be ultra specific. There needs to be some with what exactly are we trying to do with a timeline on that. I have a ton of ideas and I'm very ADD [00:45:00] scattered and just like I have a lot of great ideas and nothing's ever going to get done without any structure to that.
So one of the exercises that I did when we did our retreat in Florida was that I started typing up some things that I wanted to achieve in 2024 and what's cool about that is, is we're, if anybody knows who Ed Mylett is, he talks about something called separation season. And hopefully this doesn't, hopefully nobody in our markets listening to this.
So separation season is essentially we're coming into, it happens twice a year. This is one time of year, right? So it's mid December right now. Everybody's kind of slowing down. The market's cooling off a little bit for winter. Holidays are coming. It's kind of like, let's get into a relaxed mode.
Thanksgiving, Christmas, you know, we're kind of just chilling. Our plan is to, we're still running full speed. We're running full speed. And what do I mean with that is, 2024 goals that I have set, I've probably checked off 30 percent of the goals that are either in progress or complete for next year.
Because what we're trying to do is use [00:46:00] this season where everybody else is slowing down to catch up to people we maybe never would normally catch up to or get so far ahead of the competition that there's no chance of them catching us. And also, what does that look like as we go into the new year, because if we've hit the ground running and we never slow down, by the time we come out of January, where, you know, people are coming out of hibernation, we're already six miles down the road. Another example of extremism and 110%. But having goals written down in an ultra specific format with specific deadlines. It's something that I haven't been that great with in the past and I kind of implemented in the past I would even say 30 days and I have the amount of ground that I've been able to make on some of these goals has been absolutely insane.
I mean I could work three day weeks and I'm still crushing like it's a seven day work week.
Scott L: All right, I want to touch on a couple of other things. You have a desire to teach others about cabinet painting. You think that's something that will, rise to the top? Or is that something that's going to be a future project?[00:47:00]
Chris: I have a lot of great ideas and limited resources and time. So right now I think I'm ultra focused on getting to that 900, 000 mark for next year. I think that the reality is when we have three field painters, we're incredibly fragile, as you've told me several times in the past, because all it takes is one person to leave and we've lost 30 percent of the team.
I'm back in the field. And then the working on the business gets held up. So definitely something that is in the back of my mind, I wouldn't say it's front and center for 2024. Although at the rate that I'm going with, you know, tackling some of these goal items for 24 that could easily pop on there.
I think I had sent you a text last week where I said, I'm going to have to put some more items on this list.
Scott L: Yes, that's what you said.
Chris: But as far as, you know, longterm goals, I haven't thought much past probably this year because we've been in such a crazy, I guess, 18 to 24 months for me. I think I'm just, I highly want to focus ultra specific on this year before I get too crazy in the future.
Although I do have some ideas, I don't have anything specific [00:48:00] written down with a, with a deadline. One of those things is buying a shop. I would like to invest in some real estate. I think that there's a good opportunity for us to maybe pick up a. An old body shop that that's already outfitted with a spray booth and kind of build off of that or, or get something that has maybe some lease space that allows us to kind of offset the cost of having a shop.
It also would allow kind of maybe some of the money that we have sitting in the bank to work for us rather than us working for that money. And I think that's, that's probably something that's very likely in the next couple of years. I wouldn't necessarily say 2024 is the year for that, but you know, maybe moving past that.
I Already know that as we get, you know, approach the 900, 000 mark, I'm, I'm going to need some help which is going to bring us into something that you're familiar with, and that you've mentioned several times, and that's Death Valley, which is not a place I'm trying to hang out. So I think that, you know, We come into 24, hit that 900, 000 mark.
We're going to have to, again, separation season, we're probably going to just [00:49:00] continue push, push, pushing, and hopefully spring into 2025 and break that million dollar mark. Probably get up. Was it like 1. 2 or something? Something that allows us to have the support staff without completely eating our profits up.
Scott L: That's awesome. I'd love to hear that. Alright, a couple rapid fire questions as we kind of wrap up. I could talk to you for a long time and there's stuff that I'm sure we've forgotten. But what's your superpower? What do you bring to Clean Cut Painting that is unique and without it your team doesn't succeed?
Chris: I would say my energy level is probably my strongest. I'm the, the shop hype man. I think, for whatever reason, I think I can attract like minded people. And, and I really can get people motivated. Yeah, obviously we're looking always for self starters, but I think with me at the helm, it brings a level of intensity gets us results that we need.
I don't do it intentionally, that's just how I am. Fairly [00:50:00] intense. I don't know if that's how you describe me.
Scott L: Fairly intense.
Insanely intense. But yes, go ahead.
Chris: yeah, but I think that, I mean, it comes, it comes even right back into the core values, the never enough, never be satisfied. I mean, that's the whole thing. Like we're here as human beings to grow and learn.
You know, I think with the younger generation particularly, and this has kind of been an interesting, I think, realization over the past even six months, is that a lot of the younger generation we talk about, there's no good workers, there's a labor shortage, I think people are starving for purpose. I think there's a lot of people that are ill prepared for the workplace, they're starving for purpose, and we're able to give them some purpose.
And at a minimum, if they don't walk out as a professional painter or carry on with that, we're giving them some skills for life that they can use outside of this place. And if I can do that, then I've done my job.
[00:50:49] Business Growth and Personal Development
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Scott L: That's great. Tell me what has been the benefit of coaching and having someone walk alongside of you for those that think that it's an investment that doesn't make sense.
How have you [00:51:00] benefited from coaching?
Chris: So I think even more so than the coaching is the, the C4C group. I mean, the retreat alone and being able to network with other businesses, it's interesting going into that because I didn't even want to present. It's been such a shit show for the past, you know, 18 months. That I didn't even want to open up and talk about a lot of the issues that we've had. But it's interesting being surrounded with other businesses and you realize that everybody has their struggles There is no perfect business every single business has something that they struggle with and it's probably a lot more similar to what you're struggling with than you probably realize Kind of back on the one on one coaching is that like the understanding of the numbers I mean, we were using paper timecards, Scott, when we first met you, you know, you know how annoying that is Like to be able to have that data that I can put into a spreadsheet to job cost, job costing Understanding it where you're making money, if you're making money, I mean, I operated for probably close to 10 years and [00:52:00] had no clue if I was making money other than like, I was slowly putting some money into the bank.
Scott L: It's all too common and sort of shocking. But yeah, you, you, you made some money and bought a house and lived your life, but you really don't know how. And it's better this way, I'm sure. As we roll out of here, what would you say to either a younger Chris or someone that is like, where you were and struggling with some of the same things, what are some of the things that you would say to them that might shorten their learning curve that might help them, or encourage them as they're growing their business?
Chris: I think it depends on what they're looking to do. So if you're content and you love painting, then I probably wouldn't tell you anything other than just do what you enjoy. If you are trying to build a business and scale and you want to be like the business owner, then getting out of the field is going to be critical to that.
It's funny because I don't think with myself in the field that we were really making any money [00:53:00] with me being in the field. I think I was holding the company back and when I have the time and the ability to work on the business, not in the business, it's like a complete different ball game. It's not for everybody but I enjoy like the game of business, right?
It's a game and I think I play it fairly well. And it brings me a lot of joy. I enjoy a lot of the creativity and being able to develop and design the systems. I think systems are super important. We are highly systems driven. If we have systemized every single thing that we do, everything we touch has a system for it.
I would think that's probably one of the most important as well. And understanding your numbers. I mean, if you don't even know what you should be charging, I mean, what do you, you know, you throw a sheet into the wind and just guess? Are you basing it off of what everybody else is charging or are you positioning yourself as an expert in a certain type of work?
Like for us with cabinets, we, I know we charge good money for cabinets. I'm unapologetic for what we charge because our customers are getting every single thing that they paid for and more. For sure. I, you know, there's not one feedback at the end where they're like, well, you know, that was [00:54:00] expensive for what you gave me.
Scott L: I love it. Well, Chris, it's been awesome to talk to you. We'll, put Chris's social links in the show notes and uh, go follow him on Instagram specifically. And also he's got a YouTube channel. He's got a lot of great content there and you can see his work and some of the things that he's promoting and I think it's worth modeling your business after some of what he's doing.
Chris, great to know you as a business person, but even better knowing you as a friend and I appreciate you being on the podcast today.
Chris: All right. Thanks, Scott. I appreciate you having me on. [00:55:00]