Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative helping Christians to faithfully live out their faith in their work. We recognize most of life is not lived in black and white but rather lived in the gray, lived in the nuance.
You can find more, including complementary spiritual exercises, at www.collaborativeorlando.com/nuance.
It is very common in a life cycle of faith that after you have something all figured out, after you are deeply committed, all in, in it to win it, there comes a time when it seems like everything has fallen apart or is dissolving.
Speaker 2:Faith is not always a straight line. Many of us begin with a confident, inherited faith. It fits, answers many of our questions, it feels reliable. And then somewhere along the way of life, something happens. Things get complex.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's a pastor that just preached on something that infuriated you, or maybe someone at church said something pretty ugly and it hurt you. Or perhaps it's prayers that go unanswered, a time of suffering that goes unnoticed. Certainty can fracture. Well here at Nuance, we usually explore the intersection of faith and work and how that shapes our vocation to lead in public life. Well today, we're gonna lean a little decisively on the faith side of that equation because before faith informs our work, it must first survive reality.
Speaker 2:Don't I know it? Well, my guests today are Catherine McNeil and Jason Hague, coauthors of a new book from InterVarsity Press called Mid Faith Crisis. Mid Faith Crisis. It's a book that gives language to an experience many Christians carry quietly and often alone. Well, Catherine, Jason, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having us. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2:Well, I I really appreciate you taking your time for this. So we are recording this in February where it in Orlando here is a balmy sixty five seventy degrees in sunny skies. So I hesitate. Catherine, what's it like in Chicagoland?
Speaker 1:You know, I wish that you had invited us to record in person. I would have come.
Speaker 2:Well, give us some more donors and expense accounts and we'll make that happen.
Speaker 1:There you go. Actually, we're doing very well today. It's in the thirties and it feels amazing. An improvement. About ten days ago, it was at least 40 degrees colder than this.
Speaker 2:So Oh. Oh. Yeah. God bless America. That that'll give me a mid faith crisis.
Speaker 2:And Jason is in coming to us from Eugene, Oregon where don't know. How much snow do you get in Eugene?
Speaker 3:We don't get much at all. No. If you if we want snow, we usually drive up to the Cascades and yeah. Hour drive and you can get some snow. But it's it's chilly, but it's not cold.
Speaker 3:It's not like Chicago.
Speaker 2:Well, there you go. Well, friends, listeners, and viewers, let me remind you to please like, comment, share these episodes on your social media. You just don't know how that helps us to reach further and to bless folks with these conversations, so we hope. Well, Catherine McNeil is a writer and a retreat leader whose work centers on spiritual formation and the interior life. Jason Hague, a pastor and a writer himself who spent many years accompanying people through seasons of doubt, loss, and Reconstruction.
Speaker 2:So now, friends, I can imagine. I mean, a book like this doesn't get written from the distance. I mean, this book clearly has emerged from your real ministry and pastoral work in in real people's lives. So tell me how do you know each other and then what sparked the writing of this book?
Speaker 3:We know each other because we we first published through the same publisher, and we met through our our editor. And Okay. So we started texting. We realized we had a lot of of similar tastes in literature and things. So we became friends years ago, and we just started talking about our own lives and ways that we were seeing the world, things that were happening, and realized, hey, this is a topic that's touching our lives in very personal ways and touching people that are coming to us talking about it.
Speaker 3:So we decided to write this book together.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So did the editor see a personality or a vocational overlap, or did they come to you with this topic and say, we think y'all have something to say?
Speaker 1:It was a personality overlap that it was actually not the editor of this book who introduced us. It was an editor at a different publishing house of a different book. But both Jason and I had written on themes of loss and suffering and perseverance and disorientation in the past. And we'd even found some pages, that almost seemed identical to what the other had written, even though we didn't know each other at the time, hadn't read each other's work. So I think our editor was wise to introduce us.
Speaker 1:And then we found we just had so much in common both in the ministry posture that we have as well as the ways that we wrestle with things like this.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm really excited about this conversation because so much of my story actually comes from brokenness in the church and brokenness in faith. So I had grown up in the United Methodist Church and we had four pastors in a row who, God bless them, just were not gifted, skilled and did a lot of damage. And we begged and begged. Our youth director who mentored myself and my sister, discipled us, my mother's best friend, we begged her to leave. And finally, through some precipitous events, she did, went to the Presbyterian church.
Speaker 2:I've stayed ever since. And I was actually very hesitant when I was feeling the call to ministry because I had seen so many poor examples of pastors. And yet it was at that Presbyterian church that that pastor just redeemed for me what that could look like. Tell us what what is a mid faith crisis? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1:What Jason and I have discovered through our own life of faith, as well as our own, ministry of journeying with other people over the course of years and decades, as well as the research that we've done for this book is that it is very common in a life cycle of faith that after you have something all figured out, after you are deeply committed, all in, in it to win it, there comes a time when it seems like everything has fallen apart or is dissolving or is disorienting. You hit a wall, you hit a ditch. You know, there's endless metaphors I could use. But the point is
Speaker 2:It's specific to faith, not just your work life or your relationships.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Exactly. And and, know, there is a pun in our title, mid faith crisis. We are definitely hoping people will notice that there's a parallel to a midlife crisis. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But we are looking specifically at the life cycle of faith and it's not just in our own lives and in the lives of those we've ministered with or journeyed with. It's also in the research. People have found that if you are going to have a full life cycle of faith, it is almost inevitable that you are going to have a time period, a season where it seems that you've hit a wall and there's just not a path forward. I think we all know folks that have been there or are there, even if we ourselves don't resonate with that today. And I think often the the options that are available in our imaginations and in our conversations are, just ignore that, push that under the rug.
Speaker 1:Don't talk about it. That sounds scary. Or you know what? Just throw it in like leave faith, walk away. And those are options, but we wanted to look for another option.
Speaker 1:We wanted to find a path through the very real experience of doubt, disillusionment and dead ends.
Speaker 2:Jason, tell me how you come to understand this phrase.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I I mean, for for me, it it crossed over really well the idea of midlife crisis and the faith crisis. Yeah. Because, you know, I I hid a lot of stuff in my in my forties that I just I just didn't expect. Even as a pastor.
Speaker 3:Even as a pastor. And so there really there really are a lot of parallels there. There's a lot of disappointment. There's lot of disillusionment that you can have in your life in general, in your career, in your family, that it hits you. It hits you this wasn't supposed to be this way.
Speaker 3:This is not how I planned it. This is not how I envisioned it.
Speaker 2:Being a Christian.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That can happen in your family life, and it can happen in being a Christian too. Like, I thought thought my kids weren't gonna struggle like the other kids struggle. I thought that I wasn't gonna struggle in my prayer life the way that I see some of my parishioners struggle in their prayer life. I thought that I was gonna maintain this confidence in the way that I've seen scripture, and all of a sudden, I find myself as shaky as some of the the people that I'm ministering to, and and wow.
Speaker 3:It's it's that the fact that that hits you by surprise, that's the jolt. It's like that this, wow, I didn't expect this. It wasn't supposed to be this way, and so it it definitely feels like a crisis. It's not just I'm asking questions. It's this is a crisis.
Speaker 3:I feel shaken because this timeline did not match up with what I thought.
Speaker 2:Well, I've experienced many who have had a powerful religious experience or conversion, and they want to stay on the mountaintop Yeah. As we all do. And it's just not reality, and that's okay. I've learned in ministry to try to speak of of plateaus, that this retreat or this study or this mission trip, it takes me to a new plateau rather than the sharp up and down. You've heard that in your conversations.
Speaker 3:I I think absolutely. I I think that, you know, in different circles, it's worse. I you know, my my experience has been mostly in in the the charismatic stream of the church and Mhmm. Which I I I love. We have some beautiful things in there, but there definitely is that expectation.
Speaker 3:There's the mountaintop. You're supposed to live up there. And, you know, it's the more you look at scripture, why why do we think that should be a thing? The people of God who have never stayed on mountaintops. They've had these experiences, but they go down into the valley.
Speaker 3:And so what one of the main things we try to do in this book is to normalize that experience. It's okay. You don't have to
Speaker 2:stay
Speaker 3:It's up okay that doubt is hitting you. It's okay that grief is hitting you in this really deep and tender spot. You're not extra broken. You're human, and you're wrestling with this very real life that's beautiful and so, so painful.
Speaker 1:And you know, it helps to look at scripture and see this there because, know, scripture is full of heroes that ebb and flow, but we can look into our own bodies. We can look out the window. We know that we can't stay awake, you know, functioning consistently. We have to wind down. We have to sleep.
Speaker 1:We have to wake up again. Yeah, absolutely. It cycles in, you know, this is less so true for you in Orlando, but one of the benefits of living in a place that gets so cold is that everything looks dead now and it looks dead for months.
Speaker 2:Seasons are a blessing.
Speaker 1:Exactly. But new life is coming and that's true about our spirits as well. And we write about, these are big words, but consolation and desolation, like we do go back and forth between the two. And the fact that we are in one or the other right now doesn't mean that the other one's not coming. It is.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And we can learn to, kind of go with the rhythms and build up some strength and some muscle as we go.
Speaker 2:Well, at the collaborative, we're real intentional about spiritual formation. And while we do a lot of heady stuff, we I still advocate the the heart is the focus in a lot of this. 51% heart work, 49% head work. All that to say, consolation and desolation are big themes for us. So explain what those words mean.
Speaker 2:Love those words.
Speaker 1:We write about consolation and desolation using a lot of, writers and thought that has gone before us, specifically in the realm of spiritual formation. But it's the it does, I think, go back to that earthy life cycle metaphor of sometimes we are moving towards something expanding and sometimes we are contracting. And it is absolutely necessary that we have the dawn as well as the dusk and the dark as well as the light. And when our spirits are in desolation, we may be contracting or I'm going into a season of dimness or dusk. But if we can keep on, if we can keep going persevering, if you know, if we, the dawn will come, a season of consolation is around the corner.
Speaker 1:And Jason and I are really honest that it doesn't feel that way. We had, we know firsthand how long the night can be. But we still find so much value in encouraging each other to persevere, to look for those moments of consolation, those areas of quickening and enlivening and light. I am sure Jason has wonderful things to say on top of that, but that's a little bit of how I see it.
Speaker 3:Jason. Yeah, I see it. You know, life in the spirit is, you know, it's breath, the breathing in and breathing out. Mhmm. And That's the the the moving the moving toward and then the feeling like you're you're you're having distance.
Speaker 3:And I think in in both of those times, the desire is to look toward God, look toward the spirit, look toward community. Because there's times where you're gonna feel that distance, but to always be trying to move toward even even in feeling that separation. To to make to stay in that posture of trust is even in the midst of desolation, I think is a beautiful and such a helpful thing.
Speaker 2:Jason, why do you think we assume or live our lives thinking it's always gonna be roses?
Speaker 3:I think, you know, I can't speak for other cultures in this, but I think it's because we have too many TV commercials. I mean, where
Speaker 2:Spills over in our faith.
Speaker 3:It it absolutely does. We live in such this consumer society where everything we see I mean, I use commercials as an example, obviously, but everything we see is like, this is the good life. Do this. Wear this sweater, this is the good life. These shoes, you know, whatever it is.
Speaker 3:So we expect that we take something and this is going to make this is gonna make everything work. So, yeah, I think that just that ends up crossing over into our faith of read this book or do this pray this way. You know, it wasn't so very long ago that there was a massive best selling little gift book that says pray this specific prayer, and everything in your life is gonna fall into place, and that was a massive, massive best seller. And I think that speaks to where the church in the in The United States has in large part been. We thought that if we can do this, here's the magic bullet to the good life in Jesus, and it's just not realistic.
Speaker 2:Well, and the iPhone or other phones lead us to think a it's simple and it's achievable. And in some ways, yes, Jesus is so simple, but there's the long walk of obedience Yeah. That really makes a difference. That's really good. So what are some of the things you found that really upset people's walk of faith most?
Speaker 1:Well, we have a bunch of them and you know, Jason and I have joked we could definitely write a sequel because we wrote about what we could and there's many other topics that we could have included. Yeah. We found that suffering, we were just touching on that, but suffering is a big one. A lot of times I think we do believe that everything is going to be great and if it's not, there's someone to blame and there's something that can fix it. So when suffering comes and nothing seems to fix it, we're wondering are we to blame or is God to blame?
Speaker 1:And I think that it can be an extremely difficult road for a lot of people. Another one that we've found is disillusionment. Following a teacher and then finding that he or she was leading you in very much the wrong direction involved either in abuse or toxic behavior or any number of things. Becoming disillusioned by the person who is leading you to Jesus or the church, the organization, political beliefs, social standings, all kinds of things that we have associated with the path that we're on going to Jesus only to find out that it's not actually quite a different path. We we found so many people who are just absolutely turned around and confused by by that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:You write on page 75. And what about the people and institutions that were supposed to hold these leaders accountable? All too often, when questions arose and red flags were raised, governing bodies such as boards and denominational leadership look the other way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And one thing I've observed, especially from a staff perspective, is so many people come on staff thinking it's gonna be like the church retreat all the time. And then all of a sudden, they bump into we're real people and we have real agendas and we have real sin and we hurt one another. Now I'm grateful we have the tools maybe unlike some other workplaces where there's confession and grace and mercy, hopefully. But I see people when they finally get to a point in their faith, they realize, you know what, the church isn't perfect. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It needs to be healthy and not toxic. But that's different than this perspective of it's always gonna be perfect and nothing can be bad and if it is, then I can't handle it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. We also write in the book about how there is a level of sinfulness that is damaging and harmful and we need to be very upfront about that and seek healing and repentance. But there's also a level that is nontoxic and it's just human. And that's where we need to use forgiveness and compassion and mercy.
Speaker 1:And I think it can be very difficult to know, especially if you're someone who has been traumatized in the past or harmed or abused in the past. You don't want to come back into a community if there's a danger that the community is going to hurt you. But the fact of the matter is all human relationships are going to include missteps and misunderstandings and pain. And I think it can be hard to say my prior experience was deeply harmful and abusive and I can now differentiate this experience as painful at times, but overall loving and and that's that's a journey that takes a long time.
Speaker 2:And it takes time sometimes not to blame God
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But to realize this wasn't God, this was that crabby person or that poorly managed issue within an organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And the lack of accountability for it as you mentioned.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Mhmm. I know someone who was very much in their faith, walking with the Lord and had been in environments with weak discipleship, not great discipleship. And then somebody in the choir just popped off one night at choir practice. I mean, really, really hurt this person.
Speaker 2:And they've never been back
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:To a faith community, a church community.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And it just makes me so sad. It it's real and and and and I it makes me sad for both of them. But the more I I feel like I try to vocalize such things that it helps like you say, like what your book's trying to do to recognize there's the warp and the wolf, the consolation, the desolation, and some perspective resetting perhaps on what is this arrangement, thing called Christian community. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That even the body of Christ can can act this way.
Speaker 3:I think it'd be easier for with some of that if, in general, the body of Christ was better at calling out the things that were needing to be called out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think sometimes it's you know, I mean, there's it just feels like there's this endless barrage of scandal and cover up the past decade.
Speaker 2:Sure. You
Speaker 3:know, there's been more of it even the past couple of weeks that have been very high profile regarding cover up. And I think when people see that and they see it not properly addressed
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:It can make them extra tender in places that aren't necessarily abusive, but could be still unhealthy. It's gonna make them extra tender and and not trust not trust the the community. And so I think I I I'm hoping that that's beginning to change from a, you know, from a higher level.
Speaker 2:I was a part of a church staff where a sexual inappropriateness occurred, nothing that broke law, but there was certainly a range of opinion as to whether how serious or not serious this was. And disciplinary action occurred, the individual lost their job. And there were quite a few people upset about this that that they argued the infraction did not match the discipline. And I found in that conversation the it was helpful to say to these individuals, I understand your perspective here, but also recognize there are women across our staff who are watching. And while from the legal perspective, this incident may not have broken any laws.
Speaker 2:There's the health of our organization that matters and the way in which we we manage this this just the two people involved. And I saw a lot of light bulbs come off come on, sorry. A lot of light bulbs come on and realizing, okay. So this is more than just those two. So not but, you know, you're right.
Speaker 2:Not all organizations can manage these things in a healthy manner. I feel like maybe churches because of the scandals in the last my goodness. There's always been church scandal. Churches are trying to do better or at least it's much more on the the conversations, much more in the conversations of how do we handle these things well and right when when hurt happens. Are you seeing an upward trend in that direction?
Speaker 3:I think the visit you know, how easy it is to get your story out there Mhmm. Has certainly helped in this. And, of course, there's some real downsides to that too. But when people can come and say, hey, this happened and something needs to be done, and then that gets picked up, it certainly does strike the fear of God a little bit in some of these organizations as it should Sure.
Speaker 2:For leaders to know what can happen if you don't manage this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You you need to see that, you know, and I I've even seen just just recently, there's a significant church scandal where the senior leadership hadn't been doing anything, and it was the secondary leadership. The younger pastoral staff had stood up and said, We need to do something, and it's because they were a little bit more in tune to what the stories actually were. So to me, I'm encouraged in that way because, you know, more light only makes people it's a good thing. More light is a good thing, and it it it can end up helping people do the right thing even if that's not their first inclination.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we've talked about some of the organizational ways someone's faith can be negatively impacted. Catherine, you actually led off with suffering and and life experiences where one's expectations of their faith don't necessarily follow through. I wanna focus there a bit more because I'm thinking about the individual who comes off that mountaintop and they go to work and they don't see the kingdom of God breaking around them. They go to their family Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. Talk about a pressure filled. And and so take us through some of the stories or situations you know of where God's not meeting their expectation or maybe, like I'll say often when I teach, we haven't developed yet those muscles, those spiritual muscles to see the kingdom of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, it's interesting how all the topics that we're talking about here, as well as the topics that we wrote about, there's so much overlap, you know? The toxic institutions or individuals cause suffering and suffering causes doubt and doubt causes, you know, leads to unanswered prayer, which leads to, you know, there's, it's not like any of these exist alone. But we do write a lot about different aspects of suffering, including just doubt, wrestling with doubt, wrestling with unanswered prayer. Not knowing what to do about the fact that we seem to be pouring ourselves out to God with a just cause and a clean heart.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't seem like anything is changing and how long is this gonna go on? I think a lot of it does come back to kind of the marketing that Jason was talking about earlier in which some of us, you know, we actually, we start off the book with, bringing up this concept of a meme called how it started, how it's going. And I don't know if you or the listeners are familiar, but, it's kind of a cartoonish meme that you'll find online where you'll see something starting and then an update on how it's going. So you might see, like Starting
Speaker 2:my life.
Speaker 1:So there's some beautiful things depicted here like a wedding or an engagement and then, you know, the fifty year anniversary photo or a baby, know? And then and then the graduate, you know, how it started, how it's going. But there's a lot of broken hearted things depicted that way too. Things that we started hopeful and excited and enthusiastic that are just so worn down. And I think there's so many stories that we've lived through, that we've walked through, that we tell in these books about people who were told that if they were walking with God, then their suffering would at least be lessened.
Speaker 1:That doubt, doubt, doubt was gone now. You're sure now, you're certain now, you know, you have this confidence in the spirit inside of you, that we could approach the father with our prayers and confidence that this feeling would never end. And I just actually summarized four different chapters because the fact of the matter is, again, our prayers often seem unanswered. Our body feels assailed with doubts and lack of certainty. We suffer, we lose all sense of emotional high or even of resilience.
Speaker 1:But what we are pleading with our fellow Christians is to be honest in our marketing. And then in our discipleship that we are choosing a path of following Jesus because we believe it is the path to life, but it's going to go through the valley of the shadow of death and it's going to have difficult components as we go through the world. And that doesn't take away from the value of a discipleship journey, but it does not take place on the mountain. It is a long obedience. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Or in a straight line. Yeah. I had a friend, a pastor and he would tell couples that wanted him to do their wedding. He would say, I don't do premarital counseling, but I require you to come see me once a month for the first year. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's let's get some conversation going when marriage it gets real and events of life unfold. Well, I'd like to take a pause here actually and read some scripture.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I can imagine someone listening or viewing this as I have as I am experiencing just a lot of emotions might be stirred up from hurt in in the journey of faith. So I'm gonna read two verses from Psalm 73. So this is Psalm 73 verses sixteen and seventeen. Not as an answer per se, but just a a companion as we're talking about this. When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply until I entered the sanctuary of God.
Speaker 2:Then I understood their final destiny. When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply until I entered the sanctuary of God. Then I understood their final destiny. This psalm is written by someone whose faith was unsettled. And what changes here, I think, is is not that everything suddenly makes sense, but that psalmist remains present long enough in the presence of God to to be touched.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that that touching is not always explainable or formulaic, but it's an experience. Talk to me about hope, talk to me about the turn from hitting the crisis then to rich flourishing faith again.
Speaker 3:I think if the problem was our expectations, which many times that's the problem, is we come in with these things that aren't real, the turnaround isn't always, well, let let's just get better expectations. Sometimes the turnaround is the release of expectations. And the you know, I I don't have to have visions of how this is all gonna work out.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:For me, as we continue our journey, as people who who do struggle, oftentimes, we struggle with all the same stuff as far as grief, as far as lack of certainty, all of these things, like, we're still walking and holding all of these things. What do we do? To me, one of the best things we could do is come in with an attitude of curiosity to say, I'm not gonna pretend I know how this is all gonna work out. I'm not gonna pretend I know what restoration for this relationship looks like or or for healing for my kid looks like or or whatever it is. I I can't pretend that I understand what's gonna happen.
Speaker 3:And so what I need to do is just continue to put one foot in front of the other and be curious. I wonder I wonder how this will turn out. I wonder I wonder how God might intervene. I wonder how I might be surprised. So to become open to surprise
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And open to you know, I I I like what you're saying. You're staying in the sanctuary. Right? Like, you're you're staying close to the presence of God knowing that's that's that's where where restoration can can really come. So if we are continuing in our faith, we are continuing with our community of faith, continuing on that road and certainly, that is our desire for this book, obviously, is that people don't step off the path.
Speaker 3:Some of them might need to, and and I get that. But we our our desire is for people to keep walking with Jesus. And I think we need to stop filling in the blanks and be willing to be surprised and really to truly let let Jesus surprise us.
Speaker 2:You say be willing to step off the path. I wonder if sometimes folks struggle so deeply because they're afraid they're gonna lose their salvation. Now, I'm obviously from a reformed Presbyterian perspective and we confess that that's not possible, once saved always saved. Don't know where y'all may be on that, but that folks when they don't have the closeness and the joy that they worry they may have either walked away from God unintentionally or God walked away from them and their eternal salvation could be at risk. And you're asking for a bit of that reorientation, relooking at that.
Speaker 3:I think people have the fear of losing Jesus. And whether or not whether or not they're thinking about that in eternal perspectives of, like, of of salvation or heaven or however they're seeing it, Whether or not that's even in the equation, they have the fear, like I did when I went through my crisis, of just losing Jesus. And like
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that that's a that's a very deep and personal kind of thing of like, oh my goodness. I've given my life here. Is is he gonna walk away? Was I wrong about I think that's a that's a terrifying conundrum if you've walked with
Speaker 2:Jesus over time. You know, is my mother or father gonna walk away from me? Mean, that's that's tough. I love that at the end of each chapter, you offer practical concrete ways to go about leaning into the topic or or changing things in in in renewal. So page one forty one, you write, may we invite you to take a deep breath and learn bit by bit, step by step.
Speaker 2:And so you give some of those, like, you say on one forty three, page one forty three, consider listening to Psalm one thirty one. Consider listening to I Don't Know Anything by John Mark Pantana or things to read from oh, look, here's one from Catherine McNee. Why did you include those practical steps?
Speaker 1:I that's something that's very important to me. We wanted, this book is full of stories, really vulnerable stories at times. Sometimes stories from the Bible or from other people that we know, but we try to tell stories and we are hoping to connect with the heart. Hearts that are breaking, hearts that are scared, hearts that don't know where to go as well as with the mind. But I wanted our readers to have additional steps to take.
Speaker 1:I love that moment of intellectually or emotionally connecting and saying, this makes sense of what I'm experiencing. This is the framework that I need to understand what I'm going through. And so I wanted that, but then what? I wanted folks to know that there were other things available and some of them are practices. Sometimes we're asking people to look at artwork or listen to a song, but sometimes we're pointing them to another book they might read or another, another institution or organization that they might want to look up online that has a slightly different perspective on, on a topic that maybe they need to totally reevaluate.
Speaker 1:So I wanted, what I really want actually in all of my books is for people to know that they're not alone. And I initially want to do that by telling stories, true stories that I think can help people say, first of all, I'm not the only one experiencing this. And second of all, this helps me make sense of what I've been going through, But then also to point them in another place where they can find other people who are in a similar situation.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And I just wanna point out, built into your words there and your practices in the book is that not just assumption, but truth. God's there waiting. Yeah. He hasn't walked away.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'll push my reformed Presbyterian perspective that, you know, we teach once saved, always saved because that which God has claimed for himself, he will not relinquish even if our unfaithfulness or suffering as we've discussed gets in the way. And so he's gonna be there. It's just learning new ways to find him, engage him, sit in the sanctuary. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Mhmm. So good. Well, friends, we're gonna continue this conversation next week. And I'm gonna ask Catherine and Jason to go a little bit more deeply into their own lives, their own journey of faith, those mid faith crises but also where the Lord met them.
Speaker 2:So before we close, Katherine Jason, tell us where we can learn more about your work, your writing, and more.
Speaker 1:Well, you can find our book Mid Faith Crisis, Finding a Path Through Doubt, Disillusionment, and Dead End anywhere books are sold.
Speaker 2:By Varsity Press.
Speaker 1:That's right. You can find more of my work at katherinemcneil.com as long as you can spell my name right.
Speaker 2:With a c. Right?
Speaker 1:C o.
Speaker 2:And it's McNeil with I e l. Yes. E I l.
Speaker 1:There's so many, potential, disasters in that name.
Speaker 2:You should have bought all of those websites. Well, we're gonna have the right website on our in our show notes, so don't Good. Worry about Jason, for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. You can find me at my website, jasonhague.com. That's h a g u e, and on Facebook on Jason Jason Hague Writer.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, friends, stick around or come back next week and join us for the second part of this conversation. If this resonated with you or maybe you know a friend who has gone through such a journey, perhaps share this with him and help them to grow in their own walk with the Lord. Leave us a review, a comment.
Speaker 2:It helps us expand the conversation. If you go to our website, wecolabor.com, That's wecolabor.com. Give us your email. We'll send you Zeitgeist, our journal on faith, work, and culture. Many thanks to the Canaparo family for supporting today's episode.
Speaker 2:I'm Case Thorpe, and God's blessings on you.