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In each episode of Sustainability Insiders, Kevin Hegarty speaks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. In season two, Camilla Smith, from specialist sustainability recruiter Sustii, shares what candidates and employers are looking for in this fast‑growing talent marketplace. Ian O’Donnell MBE, from the Federation of Small Businesses, talks about the challenges - and opportunities - small businesses face in operating sustainably. And one of the sector’s standout leaders, Mary Aladegbola, breaks down how she navigates net-zero challenges across NHS England. Other guests include ESG lead Ewan Donald from engineering business Ipsum, and Graham Duxbury, Chief Executive of Groundwork. Hopefully each of their stories will inspire you on your sustainability journey, and give you the ideas and tools you need to make your own company more sustainable in the very near future.
Hi, and welcome to Sustainability Insiders, the podcast that talks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. I'm Kevin Hegarty, and I work at Cadent, a UK energy network that's on its own sustainability journey. In this episode, I'm joined by Camilla Smith, the founder of Sustee, a recruitment agency which specializes in global sustainability. In our conversation, Camilla explains where she thinks sustainability sits within modern organizations and how the sustainability talent landscape looks today. She also gives her advice on how to stand out as a candidate when applying for sustainability roles.
Kevin Hegarty:Hi, Camilla, and welcome to Sustainability Insiders, the podcast.
Camilla Smith:Hi Kevin.
Kevin Hegarty:So the reason I approached you to be a guest on this podcast was that I'd recently seen some research that told me that the title sustainability manager was the second fastest growing role in The UK behind only artificial intelligence prompt engineer. In fact, there's more UK companies recently hiring for sustainability managers than TikTok strategists or cybersecurity analysts. So who better, I thought, to talk to the founder of a recruitment agency specializing in this sustainability field? So Sustee, based in London, got clients worldwide but has a focus on consumer tech and manufacturing. Recently worked with Amazon, B and Q, booking.com, all names I'm sure will be familiar to the audience.
Kevin Hegarty:So Camilla, let me start by asking you, in your experience, where does sustainability sit within a modern organization?
Camilla Smith:So interesting. Sustainability, so it sits in various places. It typically used to sit in what you'd call a CSR function, which is quite an outdated term, marketing as well, but we've seen it moving more into strategy, finance, ops, and product, depending on what type of business, but really it's just driven by regulation, so it really depends on the type of business. Broadly speaking, it's moving away from comms and marketing more into finance ops and more operational commercial roles essentially.
Kevin Hegarty:And did you find or have you found that it's moved from being a bit of a niche focus to something that's actually really core to the business and so many more businesses now are seeing it as an integral part to the talent strategy.
Camilla Smith:Yeah, definitely. I mean there are still companies that do see it as a standalone function, but whereas I would say, I don't know, ten to fifteen years ago it it was 90% of businesses saw it as a standalone function, I would say now that's being flipped on its head and only a small proportion of companies are seeing it as a standalone function. So it really is now integral and integrating into all these various business units, whether that is risk, finance, HR, people, marketing, the list goes on. So we're definitely starting to see it integrate more with other parts of the business. It's even starting to make its way into c level, into board meetings, which is great to see as well.
Kevin Hegarty:Absolutely. And so tell me a bit about the sustainability landscape of today. What are we seeing as the dominant trends that you're noticing within the the talent and recruitment space?
Camilla Smith:Well, what you mentioned in terms of, you know, the the title of the sustainability manager, we're definitely seeing more of that. And and that's not surprising. It's quite a vague job as you can imagine because there's a lot to that that could be is it a sustainability manager which is the first hire for the company? Is it backfilling somebody? Is it a large 10,000 person company where they just need another sustainability manager to cover one function?
Camilla Smith:But what we are seeing in that role from being on the recruiter side of it is that more companies are looking for their first hire in sustainability. Now that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be at someone entry level, it actually means they need an experienced sustainability manager. I'd say anything from five to eight years experience really, because you need to have some experience behind you to be able to go into a company and be there first sustainability hire. It's not just looking at things like storytelling or the consumer, whether it's a consumer based project or product. It really is about what that company is doing from within, so internally with their with their people and their staff.
Camilla Smith:Whereas before, I think people were really just looking at how they were projecting and how they were looking from an external standpoint. So what they were looking for before might have just been it it might actually be more linked to why sustainability in ESG might have sat within comms and marketing because a lot of companies would have just kind of seen it as a function that is purely for storytelling. Whereas, we are seeing more companies now who are finding it more important to actually look after their staff, a huge part of their retention strategies may be their sustainability strategy. It's a lot more important for retaining staff, attracting staff, so that landscape is changing because they do need more people to come in and actually help from within, not just only?
Kevin Hegarty:Oh, 100%. Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting development, isn't it? Because as you say, it's making sure that the business itself, it's it's all well and good you've been able to report and saying you're doing these things and getting the storytelling right. But fundamentally, you've got to be operating a sustainable business.
Kevin Hegarty:So you need the person with the expertise and the skills to be able to make that happen and the guest to be the person who can ensure that different parts of the business are following along to that strategy.
Camilla Smith:Exactly.
Kevin Hegarty:What sort of people are you noticing attracted to that role and what and what perhaps has been their background?
Camilla Smith:Just to take a a slight step back, I just had a thought on that which could be interesting context as well for the listener here. So just going on that first sustainability hire, so typically before before the sustainability recruitment boom, which I'll say has happened in the last five to ten years, that person might come from a different area in the organization and has either worked their way up, or they transitioned across into sustainability, because it's a right, this is actually not a nice to have anymore, we need to report on x, we need to build these frameworks for zed, we need to educate the rest of our business. Whereas now, which is good, people need to actually have more accreditations and actually need to have training behind them before they can just start saying that I understand sustainability and this is how we can be sustainable. It's kind of the difference between greenwashing and actually being sustainable. Right?
Camilla Smith:So now instead of training people up in the organization from another part, they actually need to make that hire externally. Mean, they need to make sure they get in someone who is extremely experienced, which I think is really good for the market.
Kevin Hegarty:A really really important add, and and I think it's interesting isn't it, you also referred to the fact that there are sustainability managers now for for different parts of a bigger business, for different parts of the business. So as well as having the one individual perhaps for a smaller business, you've got a number of sustainability managers operating within the same business to make sure it's all cohesive and comes together. So tell me then about the different types of roles that we will find. I believe that there are, in some cases, a position might be suitable for an interim position or others may be permanent. What sort of decisions are made by businesses in order to make that choice between the interim and the permanent hire?
Camilla Smith:The types of roles, just towards the first part, I mean that they do vary depending on the level of person that the organization needs. Typically head of, director of sustainability or ESG. Again, the term sustainability or ESG can differ depending on on what the needs are or what the overall goals of the business are. A lot of roles are also moving towards being more nature focused and biodiversity focused. Some are bit more carbon focused or climate focused, and then you get roles which are more reporting and regulatory focused.
Camilla Smith:So I won't go into the boring acronyms, but I'm sure many of you will know if you're listening better. If a company is going through some sort of regulatory change, or they're going through their reporting season, which is typically towards their end of financial year, then companies will need to lean on interim resource or project resource. So this is where they might lean on larger consulting firms that are well known in the industry within sustainability data. They may lean on other agencies, or they may just try and get that talent in house, which is where teams can be quite stretched. I talked to a lot of head of sustainability or sustainability managers where they're essentially doing everything.
Camilla Smith:And in an ideal world, they would have the budget to have four or five people in their team. But as a recruiter, I typically deal with clients who have got the budget and the headcount to bring on more heads, which is great. So the difference between a permanent or an interim role really comes down to the nature of the work. If a company is right at the beginning of their sustainability journey, they have kind of a vague idea of what they want to do, why they want to get to, and it's and and it's quite, I wouldn't say cookie cutter but I can't really think of another phrase, but a a pretty bog standard plan for a non niche company, then they probably can just hire a permanent sustainability manager with some experience behind them to come in and help them achieve their goals. If they're a larger business and they're say restructuring, or they've gone through acquisition, or they are are doing a huge rebrand, then they really could lean on interim support, and that's something I've been able to help clients with a lot over the last few years.
Camilla Smith:So that can be really offering niche advice on how to go through a sustainability reshuffle, or it can be regulatory focused where they need to report on on something that they've never reported on before, or if they're an industry where the consumer is really important, they might have had a scandal in the press and they just need someone to really help overcome the external engagement side of things. So typically, these are the sorts of instances where companies can lean on interim resource or contract experts, people will call themselves advisors, consultants essentially, and those are the sorts of people that I can can reach out to and, you know, speak to to help these clients when they're in a bit of a pickle, really, and they don't have the time or the headcount to hire someone perm because that can take a long time sometimes.
Kevin Hegarty:Yeah. Makes absolute sense. So imagine that I'm interested in a role myself in sustainability as a candidate, and I'm looking for the sorts of roles that might be on offer, but I don't know whether my skills match the job. What sorts of things are the recruiters looking for, are the people looking to recruit somebody looking for in an individual?
Camilla Smith:Yeah, great, thank you. Firstly I'd say if you're a candidate looking for a job, always just take a step back and put yourself in the employer or recruiter's shoes. Easier said than done, but I do think that's good advice when I've looked for a role in the past, I have to take that advice and it and it is helpful. And it means you can just take a step back and think about yourself as a candidate. So sustainability aside first, think about what are you good at, what are your strengths, what are your transferable skills now?
Camilla Smith:So quite practically, what are you good at, what can you transfer? And then less practically, what are you passionate about? You know, there are various elements of sustainability, I've mentioned a few earlier, for example, you can go down the more regulatory driven roles, nature driven roles, it really depends again what are you passionate about, which usually leads to then what are you good at, because you're usually good at doing something you're passionate about. So once you've narrowed that down and and and you've really thought about it, that's when I would say make sure that's quite clear on your CV because the CV is the first thing that a recruiter or an employer will see. So it's very important that you do what you can to stand out as a candidate.
Camilla Smith:That also must sound quite cliche, but but it is true. And it is possible to stand out as a candidate in this market.
Kevin Hegarty:And I guess in the in more recent times, we've seen the the emergence of AI and and how that might influence the way people shape and write their CVs. Again, I make an assumption that it's quite obvious to spot the person who's used AI. Or it not perhaps? And you can tell me otherwise.
Camilla Smith:Well, we can do a challenge outside of this, and I'll show you one CV written by AI and why not, and I I don't think you'd be able to tell, which I don't know if it's a good thing or not, but AI know knows what it's doing. Look, the AI subject, we could have a whole another podcast recording about that, but AI is a bit of good, it's a bit of bad. I believe there are more pros and cons. It does help speed up screening, it does help research teams narrow down applicants because sometimes there are far more applicants than available positions, you know, particularly in the last couple of years, and I'm sure if anybody listening has applied for a role in the last few years, this will probably resonate with them. But I I do think AI is helping that, so just having the right tools and understanding how that works can definitely help, so I can give you a bit of insight.
Camilla Smith:So if you are a hiring client right now, and you're relying on some AI tools, you would be the recruiter for a large organization, you'd hire, you'd post one sustainability manager advert online, in forty eight hours you might get a 100 applicants. The first thing that AI software will do, it will look for words on the CV before a human will trawl through every single CV because physically most people haven't got that time unfortunately, so they will look for words in the CV. So it's very key that if you're applying for a sustainability manager role with carbon as the focus, that you have got the terms sustainability, management, manager, and carbon written in that profile enough, not because it's a buzzword exercise, but really because if that's something you do, it really should be prominent in your CV, and there's never any harm in adding a few more examples in that document for it to come through. And then once AI has done that first screening, then that's when the humans will take over, and then we will screen, we will call, we'll be as personal as possible, well I will anyway, and then we'll move the process on from there.
Camilla Smith:But this has been the same before AI and now, but companies have never had enough time to go through every single CV, so those those initial cover notes and making sure those words are prominent in profiles is is key. I'm not saying it's it's always right because I know some people can slip through that AI or word Net. It's just how the landscape is for hiring in in this day and age.
Kevin Hegarty:Yeah. And it occurred to me as you were saying that that I I didn't ask you the next question I should have asked before which was around you you we talked about what sort of skills that a candidate should be showing when they're looking to go for a job. But what what sort of things are the are the the recruiter looking for when they want somebody in this sustainability space? What sort of skills are they looking for?
Camilla Smith:So mainly, we're looking for somebody to be solution orientated because sustainability is is such a gray area, most areas aren't black and white, but this is probably one of the least black and white areas. So in an ever evolving industry that is sustainability in ESG, they need people with really open minds who not only just want to do good or be a bit more green, but can actually come in and apply some real logic based thinking and solutions to the company and different suggestions as to how they can improve their strategy, we're never looking for perfection, we're only looking for small incremental wins. So if somebody's been able to demonstrate that in their roles, where they've just gone from good to great, good to great with incremental wins, then that's going to be amazing. We're not looking for anybody to come and say, oh, they they've made the the best sustainability strategy or they've taken one company from one to a 100 in a couple of years because that's just not possible.
Kevin Hegarty:Yeah. And then I wonder, you know, the people who listen to this podcast may be within a bigger business, just as many will be within a smaller business. And how does a smaller business compete in this space when there are so many, you say, I understand that there will be lots of people applying for individual jobs, but if you really want that candidate, how do I as a small business perhaps make sure that I've got the, I'm attracting the top talent?
Camilla Smith:That's a really good question and actually my answer links back to our first topic around where does sustainability sit. Even if you're a small company, I think if sustainability sits with board level or, you know, the the CEO for example for a smaller business, rather than your head of HR or your commerce manager, that is a good indication to an individual who's worked for a larger organization, and they might have seen more structure in place that that business is taking it very seriously. And if I were a candidate coming from a larger organization that has had a more structured team for sustainability, those are the sorts of things I'd be looking for. Where does it sit? What have they done in the past?
Camilla Smith:What does their last report look like? How have they put that together? It's these sorts of things, it doesn't need to be the best, it just needs to be in a good place to progress, I think.
Kevin Hegarty:Yeah. It makes absolute sense. And I mean, you've given us so so many amazing different things to think about there over the course of the the podcast, and whether I'm a recruiter or whether I'm someone looking to get into that particular space, It clearly is a fast growing area of recruitment. And is that what you're seeing as well? You're seeing big numbers of people looking to get involved in this particular specialism and profession?
Camilla Smith:Yes, yes I am, and it's great to see. It doesn't make it easier for the talent landscape because there are more and more people wanting to apply for these roles, but it's amazing to see that more people just want to do better for themselves, for future generations, I speak to so many candidates and, you know, my first question is normally, so why do want to apply for this job? And usually the first answer is nothing to do with the job or the company, but it really is just, you know, something personal in in their own lives, they've just had children, or whether they're at later in their career, and they've just realized what they were doing just isn't working, and it's not what they want to be doing. So that initial passion can definitely help pivot them into into these roles, but yeah, it's it's sometimes easier said than done.
Kevin Hegarty:And as someone who's set up a business that's particularly specializing in this topic, that must be something you you feel yourself that you want to be involved in helping to shape a sustainable future.
Camilla Smith:Yeah, certainly. I focus on mainly finance and HR prior to starting specializing in ESG and sustainability about five or six years ago, and, yeah, that was that that was really quite boring. I had absolutely no passion for HR or finance, so it is amazing the job satisfaction I get now doing the same thing, just in a different industry, just day to day. I mean, the the last five years has flown, which is a good sign. It it is still tough days, don't get me wrong, but it's just the enjoyment factor has definitely increased for me.
Kevin Hegarty:Amazing. Well, Camilla, thank you very much for joining us on the podcast. You've I think you've given us so many ideas, and I hope people who've listened to this take away some things that whether they're in the recruitment space or they wanna be inspired to to look for opportunities in it, I think you've given some really good advice and tips. So thank you again.
Camilla Smith:Oh, you're so welcome. Thanks for having me.
Kevin Hegarty:Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of Sustainability Insiders, please give the show a follow and a review in your podcast app. If you'd like to be a guest on a future episode, send an email to media.relations@CadentGas.com. Speak to you again soon.