073 | Chris Maffeo | Create Demand Before Trying To Capture It | MAFFEO DRINKS

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 073, I continue the conversation with Filiberto Amati on his Growth, Brands and More Podcast. I explain the concept of 'Drinks Builder' and we delve into the blurred lines between marketing and sales, discussing how to create demand before capturing it.

I emphasize the importance of understanding customer needs, solving problems with your brand, and building communities, particularly among bartenders.

We discuss successful case studies, the impact of strategic thinking on the supply chain, and tools for effective marketing and advocacy.

This conversation is packed with insights on creating a strong demand for your beverage brand through a bottom-up approach.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview

01:12 Understanding the Concept of Drinks Builder

02:17 Creating Demand Before Capturing It

03:46 The Role of Bartenders and Community Building

05:18 Strategic Thinking and Supply Chain Impact

06:23 Building a Commercial Proposition

07:39 Generating Demand in Non-Traditional Venues

11:55 The Importance of Insight and Problem-Solving

21:07 The Role of Advocacy and Community in Marketing

33:08 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

About The Host: Filiberto Amati

About The Guest: Chris Maffeo

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo.
In episode 73, I continue the

conversation with Filibert Amati
on his growth, brands and more

podcasts.
I explained the concept of

Drinks Builder and we delve into
the blurred lines between

marketing and sales, discussing
how to create demand before

capturing it.
I emphasize the importance of

understanding customer needs,
solving problems with your

brand, and building communities,
particularly among bartenders.

We discuss successful case
studies, the impact of strategic

thinking on the supply chain,
and tools for effective

marketing and hypocrisy.
This conversation is packed with

insights on creating a strong
demand for your beverage brand

through a bottom up approach.
I hope you will enjoy our chat

as Molasque, that means a lot to
me.

If you enjoy this podcast, take
the time to leave a review on

Spotify or Apple Podcast.
You will also find a detailed

transcript of the episode on
mafiadrinks.substock.com.

Where it gets?
Pre released 24 hours before

other platforms.
Which brings me to the our final

big topic, which is your bottom
up approach.

So you recently coined the
notion of beverage builder.

Did I get that?
Correctly, I call it drink

drinks builder but.
It's the.

Same, Yeah.
And what I like about those is

because in the beverage and food
industry, which is what I say

blurred what you are basically
you're insight, what you're

claiming is that functions are
now blurred and you can't

marketing divided by sales
because at the end of the day,

when you want to really build
the brand bottom up, the two are

one and the same.
So what's your definition of

beverage builder and what makes
it different?

Let's start from that A.
Beverage builder is somebody who

understand that you need to
create demand before being able

to capture the demand.
So it is it is someone who

doesn't go into just is not
long.

It doesn't go full on into
commercial with love blindly

getting opportunity, walking in
and out of stores randomly.

You know they have they have
something they have made,

they've done their homework and
they know that you can only

build the demand 1st and then
capture it.

So the whole thing is about like
the my take about brand

awareness.
No, like for me, brand awareness

means nothing.
I've always hated that term in

meetings.
Like let's look at the funnel

about for me, it's about demand.
Is that brand in demand?

Do they, do they know about the
brand in a way that they are

interested in purchasing the
brand and they understand that

brand makes sense for them?
And it's also given by the fact

that the path to purchase has
changed like versus when years

ago, the actual logistics of the
infrastructure with wholesalers

and so on hasn't moved, hasn't
changed, but the way things

happen has changed.
So now before the salesperson,

for example, was going into a
bar and was creating that demand

and then he was trying to
capture the demand at the same

time, because the operator was
only an operator.

It was not a but now the
operator is also a drinks

builder.
The bartender, the owner that

wants to, they are curator of
back bars.

Like when you talk to
bartenders, they want to, they

know what's hot, what's not hot.
They go to other friends bar

when they're off, they see, oh,
what's that bottle?

Try it.
Or they go on WhatsApp groups,

they go on forums, they go to
trade fairs and so on.

So now they already know what to
buy.

So I always say if you are
working into the bar and when

you mention the name of your
product, they have never heard

about it, you're probably in the
wrong bar or probably you

haven't created demands or both.
Because that's the thing, like

people, they already know what
they want to get in the best

bars.
So either you really spend an F

and put effort into creating
that demand that could actually

last even like months before you
actually put the first foot in

the door in a bar and, and
really understand why they

should buy you.
And then you can focus on

actually, OK, how do I capture
that?

But many times people want to
capture it, but they have not

they've not done anything to
create it.

So they go they really do this
kind of like door to door taking

the bottle out of the of the
backpack and start talking about

the brand and as long gone like
I'm not interested about this

kind of conversation.
So let me see if I capture that

correctly.
On one end, you have the route

to market with these supply
chain pieces, which hasn't

changed.
There are few things coming up

there, but it hasn't changed
basically in the past 2530 years

in most developed countries.
And then what you're saying is

that you need to do rather than
doing a pure push or a pure pull

in marketing terms, marketing
commercial terms, you would try

to build some intelligence on
what are the outlets that might

already be interested in your.
Offering, yes.

OK, so how do you sell the first
button?

That and that's the gain.
So you first of all you need to

understand and transfer.
So you need the foundation of

your strategy.
You need to translate that that

brand positioning that you
started with your brand into

what I call a commercial
proposition.

So what does that mean in terms
of bars and restaurants that are

not only like a pub or a
pizzeria or a kebab shop, but

they are actually people, places
with certain type of aspects,

like the, the bar owner is a
certain type of person like

that.
It's about the philosophy behind

this.
And there are also drinks

builders, by the way.
So there's not only like from

the brand side, it's also from
the.

Customer side, they'd already
belong to a community.

They belong to a community of
people that wants to have

certain type of products.
And if you manage to establish

yourself as a product that is
not only a vodka, a whiskey, a

gin, but it's something that
solves a specific problem to

someone, which is not only the
the consumer, but it's also the

bartender, it's also the owner,
it's also the the wholesaler.

Then you can actually really map
the city in that sense and say,

OK, actually I want to go into
places that do certain type of

things.
So examples.

Otherwise, a kid, it stays very
ethereal.

It could be like, OK, it's a
cafe during the day that after

work becomes, so you go there
for latte, cappuccino and

Framizzini and sandwiches.
But then from 4:00, it starts to

become a place where people want
to have a beer, but maybe it's a

bottle of beer.
They don't have footfall to have

a draft.
They start to have a spritz.

People start having a spritz,
they start to have the gin and

sonics and so on.
And then, OK, maybe is there a

space for them to actually start
having a whiskey highball maybe

or capturing that volume pool
that is like light beer spritz,

Prosecco, gin and Tony kind of
thing.

Now The thing is that if you go
there without having built any

demand or without having explain
what you do before, then you

walk in with a bottle of whiskey
and that owner is going to sell

you.
Like, do you see any whiskey

here?
Are you crazy or what?

I just sell beer, wine,
Prosecco, gin, Ciao, goodbye,

see you next time.
But then if you explain it to

them as OK, our whiskey is good
for mixing it and especially

many people recommend it because
it has a certain taste profile

that goes well with, I don't
know a ginger ale or ginger beer

and Mediterranean tonic or
whatever that could be and goes

well with that kind of brands
that you're already selling.

And by the way, maybe I give you
a little bit more margins

because you can upsell it
because you're selling the gene

and tonic for an O €6.
And this one you get sell it for

seven and a half EUR and
actually you make more margin

and blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.

Now, without going too much into
the details, all of a sudden you

are create, you are creating
that demand on someone that on

paper would not be interested
into your brand because no other

whiskey brand is actually
approaching those venues because

they do it top down and they
say, tell me the outlets that

sell whiskey.
And then you go and basically

fight into the 70 whiskey on the
back bar venues.

And then you need to fight much
stronger than what you would do

with these other way.
Which by the way, is the same

thing that happened maybe 10
years ago with gin and tonic,

because that same venue would
have answered, I only do

cappuccinos and espresso.
I don't do gin and tonic here.

But then when the the commercial
people from after all started

commercializing the spirits,
that's exactly what they

probably have done because there
was only beer, There was only

cappuccino.
And then all of a sudden there

was priests.
And then all of a sudden there

was Prosecco.
And then all of a sudden there

was gin and tonic.
And then now you could start to

do, OK, what about whiskey
eyeballs?

And then what about this one
about that?

And the same thing with
premiumizing tonic waters.

No, here they just drink Coke
and Fanta.

They don't like tonics.
OK, let's talk about it.

So this whole thing about
generating demand and creating

demand is basically not fishing
in the same pond where

everybody's fishing, but create
your own category, which doesn't

mean whiskey as a category, but
your micro category, which is,

you know, you are a whiskey for
that kind of occasion or you are

a tequila for that kind of
thing.

Or you are a mezcal that is a
little bit less smoky than the

other mezcal.
And you go well in up trading

from tequila or side trading
from a Scotch, a pitted Scotch,

because you work on, on, on
smokiness like you can play on,

on especially like on starting
from taste profile.

I'm a big fan of starting from
the taste profile to actually do

these little experiments and
then expanding that footprint

into where there was no demand.
Because otherwise you focus on

the people that know they have
that problem today, but you have

to focus on the people that
don't know yet that they have

that problem, but you have
identified it for them.

So bottom line, you need to have
incredible insight on what the

customer needs are and bring the
customer a solution to a

problem.
Not a beverage brand, a brand

that solves an existing problem
they might or gives them an

opportunity to upgrade.
They might be or not be aware

of.
And that's how you generate and

capture demand.
And I think it's, it's

beautiful.
And by the way, I, that's how

Albert was developed because at
the beginning, the logistics of

having a cocktail with three
ingredients in most countries

where usually you've been in
Spain and in Spain, for the love

of God, I love the country.
But the Cubata, they don't even

mix the cola or the Fanta or the
tonic inside can give you the

bottle next to it.
So they pour the, the, the

alcohol base in the glass with
the ice cubes and then they give

you the bottle of cola next to
it.

It's as simple as that.
So yes, doing a splits in that

condition, it's more
complicated.

You cannot do that with the
spreads.

But then they managed to find a
way to solve solve the problem.

And for me, sorry, like just a
close loop on that one feel

better.
Like they all say that's the

reason why I don't call them
brand builders and I call them

drinks builders because for me
it's not about the brand, it's

about the drinks category that
you are building.

It's about building the category
before building the brands

because in the way you are
selling, I'm a big fan.

I'm despite what people may
think, I'm a shy person and I

don't like to sell.
I, I don't like to sell as such.

I don't like the, the pushy
sell.

So for me, it's more like I talk
to you, I listen to you, I shut.

Up first of all.
Which is tough for me often, but

then I get insights from you to
your previous point and then I

start to understand, OK, like
you are selling certain type of

categories and I think that
there is a hole in this one.

But now I don't want to go
there.

Oh, Fili Beto, that's exactly
what you drink, what you need.

The Mafia whiskey.
No, you need something that will

solve this problem because maybe
you are making less money on

beer.
Maybe you're doing this.

You're doing that like your
customers don't want to spend

money on this one, they want to
spend money on this one.

They don't order this one, they
order this one.

So you need something, and I
haven't told you what it is yet,

that solves that problem.
And then, by the way, have you

thought about this?
And that's when I put.

So mine is a solution to a
problem that probably you have

never crystallized into your
head.

And then I solve it.
But then it's still very

different if I came in with a
bottle in my hands.

Hey, Filiberto.
Hi, nice to meet you.

I'm Chris from Mafia Whiskey.
I would like to talk to you and

I'm sorry I'm busy and I'm not
the owner by the way, I'm the

bar Beck and the owner will be
back here next week.

You know, and then people say
like it is it's not working like

this.
This model is not working.

It's.
Not working.

What I wanted to add is that to
that there is also, which is

where the strategic thinking
helps, even though if it's

empirical and bottom up there is
the question of the supply

chain, the value chain because
and you know what I'm talking

about.
I attended the a webinar

recently on the development of
Nolo in the US, no, beyond the

three tier system and so on and
so forth.

And they had few guests that
they have they have their own

bars, they run their own
restaurants.

And what is important there
would make would stand out to me

is the fact that as you say,
Nolo brands solve a problem

because more and more people
want to combine alcoholic and

non alcoholic spirits into the
same occasions.

OK, so for them it's an
opportunity because it's not

about having a virgin mojito.
It's about a lot of consumers

which will start non alcoholic
and move to alcoholic or then

they are going to do either 1.
So it's an offer, it's a demand

which exists, but the
development happens, which is

what I want to focus on because
they can easily now order those

products through their standard
suppliers and distributors.

Because nobody wants to have 27
wholesalers coming to the bar

because it's 27 accounts, 27
different bills with different

terms which you need to remember
to pay and manage.

It's complexity and it's
complexity which has a cost, OK.

But the other thing that I
learned, which is interesting is

that in the US, they're now
specially on the soft drink

side, the emerging number of
platforms who do drop shipping

and even Amazon does that.
So a lot of these outlets can

buy these products more easily,
OK.

And I think that's also
important.

So when you sit into a bar, when
you go and develop your

solution, be sure you understand
that solution to fit into a bar

needs to go in parallel with
their current way of working.

They're not going to add a
wholesale level or a new way of

ordering just for the mafia
whiskey following your method.

Absolutely, absolutely, 100%.
And this is the thing and this

is the tricky thing because
until you reach, until you

haven't reached a certain demand
also from which demand is not

consumer demand is demand of the
ecosystem.

So wholesalers.
Exactly.

Bartenders, owners, anybody.
Distributors.

Until you don't have that one,
you will not get the attention

of a wholesaler.
So you would say, OK, I've got

this 20 bars that want to buy
from me, but now I need to bring

it to them.
And then if they buy 1 bottle

from you, they don't want to pay
1 bottle just like out of debt.

So that's why it's important to
reach that demand before you

actually go into the capturing
phase because you want people to

say, oh, OK, I'm, I'm interested
in this because like now people

are talking about it.
Me as an importer, I start to

get questioned a lot.
Oh, I, I know this brand from

London and it doesn't, it
doesn't come here.

I'm buying it by myself because,
because that is the tricky one

that sometime like, and I've
seen it here in Prague, for

example, there are some brands
that don't have a distributor

yet, but I see them in bars and
I see them more and then they

buy it online.
So they buy it online with the

higher excise.
They couldn't actually even sell

it legally because it has like a
strip stem from another country.

They need to prepay them.
Sorry.

They prepaid for them.
They.

Prepaid for them absolutely and
and on a credit card or

whatever, something that is
totally like unthinkable of.

So imagine how much demand that
brand has if the bartender, the

bar owner, the bar manager goes
through all those hassles, like

to get it to their bar.
So that is a brand that is doing

something right on demand
because it's like shit like

there are there are places that
sell my product and I don't even

have a distributor, which is the
opposite of those who say, oh,

I'm distributor in 20 markets of
which one market makes 99% of

their and the other main team
bought like a case.

Which is getting dust in a way.
You're going back to your

priorities and focus and when
it's nice, when it's right time

to to go to the next to the next
place, no.

Absolutely.
The bottom line is it's about

building communities as well.
Yes.

But is it about communities of
bartenders?

Of consumers?
Both.

What's the key?
I have to say and and let's say

a name, then it would be
bartenders.

I'm I'm a big fan of having the
trade before the consumer.

No, the the I think that they
have the same power if you take

consumer as a super consumer.
So somebody who's knowledgeable,

somebody who's is like private
clients on high end whiskies,

for example.
No.

So first of all, on on specific
categories, the Super consumer

can be even more powerful than
than bartenders.

If you take whiskey, if you take
aged categories, there are some

groups and Facebook groups and
WhatsApp groups that are move

more cases than than bars.
But then like for me, ultimately

it's about creating these
amplifiers that can tell that

story.
We go back to the beginning of

the conversation about you want
to be able to translate that

message and transfer that
message, you know, so if I can

make people that will do the
talking for me that and you

know, you don't create that as
selfishly.

I give the example of my
podcast, you know, like

sometimes I like I, I, when I, I
go around and then some people

say I introduce myself and I
say, oh, I have a podcast and so

on.
And sometimes I give the name

and then maybe like the guy goes
on Spotify as I, oh, but I'm

following it already.
Yeah.

Because a friend of mine had
sent it to me.

So someone that I have no idea
who he was gave that

recommendation of that podcast.
So maybe they were following me

on Instagram, that net, they
didn't know my face or whatever.

No, so it's not that I do it in
a selfish way, OK, I'm creating

this little bunch of people that
go around and talk about my

podcast.
It's just like I focus on the

content.
I focus on giving value to the

listener, whoever the listener
is.

It can be a bartender, brand
manager, a CEO, or whoever that

is.
And those people, they get so

much value that they start
talking about it.

So that's the good old word of
mouth.

So community means that for me,
it's not like the PowerPoint

slide.
We are in that community because

if you're not relevant in that
community, you're going to have

hard rockers and techno people
and whatever you want to create.

If you're not relevant, they
will not care about you.

So you need to give something to
them that you are solving a

problem.
And then they start really

writing about it.
They're writing into their

WhatsApp groups.
They talk about a dinner party,

they talk about it to their
friends.

And then all of a sudden they
create this demand.

And then you never know who they
are because like the famous, the

six degrees of separation on
base social medias based on, by

the way, who doesn't know?
It's all about also the weak

links.
It's about the Super consumers,

but it's about the weak links
because you never know.

If I'm at the dinner with some
lawyers, that has nothing to do

with drinks.
And then all of a sudden one of

the lawyers maybe have a huge
cabinet of rums and he's part of

a whiskey club and then he has
invested in a small bottle shop.

That you have no idea.
And if you had segmented it on

people, you have lawyers as your
community.

I agree.
And what's interesting is that

would the way you sell it now or
the way you decline it if I need

to reverse engineer it From a
marketing point of view,

building demand is first of all
building mental availability,

building the brand knowledge, so
to speak, forget about awareness

knowledge and then to their
knowledge, then close the deal

on the distribution side on the
physical availability and making

sure that they're a drinking
strategy and then the commercial

solution.
So the two things are they must

be at least in parallel.
They cannot be distribution and

then communicator.
And what, and to answer your

question, like what many brands
I see do wrong is that then they

mistake one thing.
So they think that they had

their product available, they
have their brand story, they

have their website, that they
have everything, but then they

rush into commercialization
without having done anything

before.
Like the brands that I see

succeed very well are the ones
that are actually slowing going

to market, but they are doing
something already before.

But sometimes you have a brand
that you already see the

Instagram page, you already see
them appearing in podcast, in

talking at conferences and so
on.

And then it's like, I want to
try this brand.

It's only, it's only if you
catch the guy or the girl

because they, you can only drink
that bottle when they are here

because they're nowhere yet.
Like you can only you can maybe

buy it online.
Maybe there is like a very

limited availability, but the
demand is so high that it's

before it goes wide into the
distribution.

And I have some some great
examples in my as my guest that

woven whiskey with Duncan McRae
or the hard cut with Georgie

Bell.
One of the latest episodes.

Def build the demands before
going to the market so that at

some point like people that they
can't wait to click and buy on

the when whenever that SKU
becomes available because it

becomes like it.
You have created so much

anticipation about it, then now
you really want it, which would

which is the opposite of brands
that have got everything in

place, They are too fast to go
to market and then all of a

sudden a law.
But I've been selling for one

year and nobody wants my
products.

Yeah, because you haven't
created demand.

Yeah, so on on that.
By the way, I think it's a big

what the craft Brewers did at
the very beginning.

It's exactly that model.
So the big community, they used

to go to event and they did it
on a small scale and probably

not online, but they had this
community feeling et cetera, et

cetera.
And you could only consume it

either at the events that they
were sponsoring or on top at the

still at the.
In the top room and.

In the top room.
Interesting because that model

is actually changing now for
craft drinks in general, being a

Brewers, distillers or soft
drink producers, it's becoming

the relevant model.
You talked about a bit the

events, we talked about the
podcast, but what are the core

element of the marketing toolbox
in this scenario?

That's, that's also an
interesting one.

Like for sure, like you need it.
It's mainly about having a

clarity internally.
So having the, the strategy

clear, which also means like
having a clear drink strategy.

What is the target occasion that
you want to go for and so on.

Having clear your in a nutshell,
it's your selling story, what I

call the commercial essence.
So it's about, OK, this is my

taste profile, this is my
liquid, this is my ABV, this is

my story, but not the story of
my family that nobody cares

about the story of this brand
and how does it work and why I

created it because there was a
need that I identified and so

on.
Not because I was picking a

Rosemary in the garden with my
grandma kind of thing that I can

tell it to you after you're
we're already drinking it.

And then I can tell you the
story when you ask me what, why

Rosemary, when you have all
these kind of the brand elements

and the liquid elements
together, that creates that,

that is the, the atomic part of
your brand and that is the

atomic part of that marketing
toolkit.

Because then basically you just
need to have like more branches

branching out from those little
dots on the, on the nuclear part

of the, of the, of the atom.
And then you say, OK, when I

talk about the liquid doom, OK,
then that means that on

packaging we are talking this
way.

Then it means that on tonality
we are talking this way.

And then it means that in
communication we talk this way.

And then on selling story to the
trade, we talk this way.

And when I'm at the trade fair,
I talk this way.

When we talk about the category,
our role in the category is this

1.
So we don't care about, I don't

know, the geeky whiskey clubs
because we are an approachable

whiskey or maybe you are because
you are a single cast super

about only about connoisseurs
and then you talk about that and

you don't go to the Cafe that I
mentioned earlier that because

you don't do high balls with
that whiskey.

So once that you have clear who
you are and who you are not,

then you can start to make the.
So you basically you have all

the drawings ready and then you
have to make all the toys and

all the tools after that.
And are there amissable tools

and toys these days?
Definitely like a short

training, a short advocacy
training that you know, and

again, I don't even like to call
it advocacy.

I call it because everybody goes
in this way.

So to explain what I mean, but
it's not advocacy because I

don't want to have, it's like if
mine was an advocacy podcast,

it's not an I give you value and
then you like it and then when

you meet me at Bar Convent, you
want to hug me and you want to

buy me a drink.
I don't do it to get a free

drink from you.
I do it because I genuinely like

to give my knowledge because I
like to talk about these things.

Of course I'm not a non profit,
but make money out of that.

But at the same time, again,
like it's about you have to give

knowledge to people and they
will be thankful in the future.

But it's not like genuinely want
to give you tips to go to Rome

and have a good time with you
and your family.

I don't do it because one day
you will pay me something back.

I'm doing it as a favor
initially.

And then which is a very
different thing.

And this is probably what the
craft world has started like

compared to the big companies
like that.

It's really like giving before
asking because I give you, I

give it to you out of passion.
I'm generally passionate about

telling the story about that
whiskey, about that gin, about

those flavors and about those
things.

And then you almost want, it's a
what they call this no sell,

sell.
It's almost.

But aren't you selling anything
to me?

I want to buy something for you
because I now I got so much out

of you that I want to buy
something from you now.

OK, If you want, you can buy it.
It's almost like the last cherry

on the cake.
Is not the objective like the

monetary objective?
No, but but I think it makes

sense what you said earlier
because it's all geared towards

this generating demand by
creating value in that sense,

yes.
So the advocacy training is

really about how would how my
solution is going to make more

money, more efficiency or more
interesting the work that your

partners on the other side of
the bar, no.

Absolutely, Absolutely.
Cool.

Chris, thank you very much.
I think it's been incredibly

thought provoking and
interesting this conversation

and you're welcome to come back
anytime.

Fantastic.
Thank you very much Philibert.

It's always interesting to to
speak to you and to get some

bouncing back ideas and also
help me to develop my own

clarity on I think I will start
writing something now just after

hanging up with you.
Thank you so much.

That's good.
Thank you, Chris.

That's all for.
Today, remember that this is a

two-part episode 72 and 70. 3 so
feel.

Free to listen to both.
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