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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Donna Martin:Welcome back to the debrief podcast with pastor Matthew Steven Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. We were talking about today.
Donna Martin:All black today.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. It just
Donna Martin:felt like the right thing to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know.
Donna Martin:It was great. And we
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:didn't call each other.
Donna Martin:We did it. It was awesome. Yes. I mean but you kinda failed me with the black shoes. I mean, the white shoes.
Donna Martin:But it's okay
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:Because we're still coordinating here. This is awesome. Thank you guys for sending in your questions. We are so excited to hear your perspective on these things, and we're ready to go. Are you ready?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Great questions. Thank you, guys.
Donna Martin:Thank you. Alright. This is Alberto from Menifee, California. Why was the book of Enoch removed from the bible, and is it something that we should read in connection with the bible?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So thank you, Alberto, and we we gotta be careful that we don't just believe everything we hear on TikTok or on Instagram or, you know, some pastors saying whatever. So just that statement, why did they take the book of Enoch out of the Bible? Well, what do you mean by Bible? Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what do you mean by take out? So the Book of Enoch was never in the Bible, so therefore it can never be removed from the Bible. Now having said that, I've read the Book of Enoch, I think it's over 60 chapters. I actually have the Book of Enoch at home. I have it on my on my almost said Netflix account, I have it on my, what's the No, the the first the first digital book was Amazon came out, my Kindle.
Donna Martin:Oh, Kindle.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you guys, sorry, my brain. I I preached twice this morning at Cal Baptist, my brain's a little shot. But I have it on my Kindle, and I'm not great reading long for long periods of time on digital things, so I also have it in paper form. So it's a great book, it's a fantastic book. A lot of what Jesus talks about, angels, demons, Jude quotes it, that's why people say, you know, well, it was taken out of the Bible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, you know, the Bible quotes pagan philosophers, you know, atheists, sinners, so just because the Bible pulls from something does not mean that the source is scripture. It just means point was borrowed, you know, into scripture for a reason and purpose. So like in Titus, he says, you know, it's been said about creation. Their own Christian philosophers have said they're worth worthless lazy gluttons. Pretty harsh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But he's quoting a non Christian philosopher, and he's brought that into scripture. It's why I use the Enneagram. People lose their minds. Oh, you can't you can't use anything that's not biblical. Was like, well, have you read the Bible?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Because the Bible uses non biblical sources like we're in the book of Jonah. They cast lots. Mhmm. A non biblical means of determining God's will.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it worked. Mhmm. So again, like I said in the sermon, we don't use magic because it's false, we use magic we don't use magic because we don't understand its source. Mhmm. So we don't know when it's accurate or when it's being manipulated by a spiritual realm that we do So not what we know is the word of God is not manipulated that way and our our prayers with God are not manipulated that way, so we wanna go with that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Albert Alberto I'm sorry. Mhmm. It was not taken out. Should should you read it? Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you've read and have a firm grasp and understanding of the word of God. I would also encourage you to get a Catholic Bible because they have some books in the middle that we don't have in our English Bibles, and so the book of, oh man, I'm gonna say Torbert, that's wrong. I think it's the book of Talbot, No, I'm getting it wrong. So first and second Maccabees, the book of wisdom, the book of Sirach, and then I'm missing one, and these are great books to try to understand kind of the world that Jesus lived in. So what I here's what I would say, those books were held as scripture by some Jews.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sure. So some Jewish people considered them to be authentic and some did not. Ultimately, what the Christian church did is we let the Jews decide what is the Old Testament, they decided, and Christians adopted Yeah. Their decision.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's the way it went down, so so really what we have to ask is why wasn't the Book of Enoch included Mhmm. In the Jewish canon? So the Jewish Bible and that was something they debated and they decided. So it's not like the Christians said, we want this out. The the Jews, the Jewish rabbis did not include it and we affirmed their understanding of their scripture and we affirm our understanding of our scripture.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:66 books in total, is it thirty five and twenty seven? Does that make 36? There we go. So 35 books in the Hebrew Bible, 27 books in the New Testament. So I would be very careful, as soon as someone says why was it taken out, I feel like they're pushing something on me.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've read it, it's a great book, it's a fantastic book, it has a lot to say and here's why I don't like it, is the book of Enoch does not tell us what God believes, it tells us what some Jews believe at that time about God. Mhmm. And so that's where we got we got to be very very careful. So for example, who were the Nephilim? Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The bible doesn't say. The book of Enoch says. Mhmm. So then people say, oh, this is who the Nephilim were in Genesis chapter six based on the book of Enoch and I say careful because language and understanding changes. We've we've talked about this before.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In the nineteen fifties, if I said on this show, I'm gay Mhmm. You would have assumed I'm happy. Mhmm. No one our language hasn't changed, the English language is still the same, none of our listeners would assume the same meaning just fifty years later, sixty years later, seventy years later, jeez, if I said those words out. You would would assume I meant I'm attracted to men.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Very different meanings, same word. And so we have to be careful when we read the Bible not to assume that it's all saying exactly the same thing as it goes through. One of the sins that I think I was taught in school and you may have been taught this Mhmm. Is it's called oh gosh, my brain.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The idea in Latin is that it's the same thing, so it's the I can't think of the second word. Sorry guys, my brain is on the fritz. Mhmm. Well, basically what it means is from Genesis to Revelation, God is saying the same thing. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I do not think that that's true and that's part of the wrestling. So when God is speaking to Abraham, he's speaking to Abraham within the context of a nomadic tribe of people in the Middle East at that time when no one would even have known what a Jew is. Yeah. Think about that.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So now I'm going to throw myself in his experience and assume that it means what I think it means in my world today. You know, like with, you know, the nation of Israel, here's where I disagree with my Calvary Chapel friends. I believe Jews matter, I believe Israel matters, but I think many Christians have missed the point of the resurrection. The the land of Israel was chosen by God to place the people of God for a purpose and that is to bring out about the man of God. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I believe that so much of what people point back to in the Old Testament, they say these haven't been fulfilled. I believe everything is fulfilled in Christ. Mhmm. Fulfilled. I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Everything in the law and the prophets, this is the Gospel of Luke Yeah. Points to me. It so so what I think changed for me and my Calvary Chapel friends is where they would say Israel still has a part to play and it may, it's just God is not interested any longer in the Holy Land. The earth and all that is is the Lord's. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus is the Lord of the earth. Mhmm. Not he's not just the Messiah of Israel, he is the Messiah of heaven and earth. He is reconciling all things and so when Jesus Christ comes out of that grave, he's the Lord of all. Every tongue will bow, every mouth will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think a lot of times our theology is too small and what we need to realize is the resurrection makes it big. And so so much of what's happening in Israel, and we're gonna talk about this as we wrap up Jonah, really is covert racism and so, right, as a Jewish person, I'm the chosen person of God. And I was really trying to do some research this week, you know, because it's got to be so frustrating as a Muslim, like, so if I'm a Turkish Muslim or I'm an Egyptian Muslim or I'm a Moroccan Muslim or an Indonesian Muslim, I'm forced to hear God's word in an Arab tongue. Like, so so so think about how Christianity has changed. Jesus speaks Aramaic, but the gospel comes to us in Greek and then in Latin and then ultimately in English because he's the Lord of the earth, and so you know, for for Mohammed, right, his wrestling is why did God choose why do the Jews have Moses?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Why do the Gentiles have Jesus? We need our own God, and so then they have Mohammed, who is God's prophet, and so much of this is who does God love more? And the gospel is God loves everyone. Yeah. And the Jews were chosen for a purpose to be a light unto the nations, to bring about the Messiah who saves the world, and so I think a lot of us have missed that unfortunately, and so we gotta be really really careful to not read back into that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the book of Enoch, wow, we're gonna go full circle.
Donna Martin:That was good, yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What did many Jewish prophets and rabbis believe, I would say two hundred years before Christ? Mhmm. So it's really kind of the messianic age where they're anticipating the coming of Christ, so think of, you know, the Maccabean family kicks out the Greeks, a lot of people don't realize that, but the Greeks were the first enemy of the Jews and they invited the Romans to help, and the Romans get involved and ultimately conquer them, but the Maccabean and that's what, you know, the, you know, Jews don't celebrate Christmas, they celebrate Hanukkah. That's what Hanukkah is all about. The temple is now prepared for the return of Jesus, which in John 10, he's standing in Hanukkah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. The candles are lit, and the Messiah is in the temple.
Donna Martin:I'm here. It's like I'm here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And they miss him because their understanding was something really that was more in line with the Book of Enoch than the actual what God was coming to So you gotta be really really careful about that. I love the Book of Enoch, it's not the inspired word of God. I think it does reveal some things about God. So did you guys look up what's in the Apocrypha? It's it's the Book of Wisdom, Tobit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What did I say? Talbert, jeez. Talbert. So the Book of Tobit, actually, you know, reveals Raphael who is this Jewish rabbi kind of prophet person, and so it's a creepy book, it's a freaky book, but it's kind of a good book, you know, like Job, like Jonah, why do bad things happen to good people? Maccabees is really where you see the resurrection, So and it's actually quoted in Hebrews 11, the faithful some suffered a horrible death to receive a better resurrection.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, where is that in the Old Testament? It's not. It's in second Maccabees, I believe chapter 16, it's been a while since I read it, but where this woman loses seven sons. Wow. And they're all killed by the Greeks because they refuse to not be circumcised.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So circumcision was outlawed, they were forced to eat eat pork, they had to wrestle in the gymnasiums, which oftentimes led to homosexual intercourse. You know, and that's really kind of the, you know, the root of the Olympics is pagan gods, revelry, and athletes ran naked so you could see who you wanted to buy and be with. Know I just ruined everybody's Olympics. Lunch it. But that's what it was.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so the book of Enoch, in summary, was not taken out, it was what some Jews believed about what God was doing. Here's why it is important, it shows us the heightened awareness of demons, the heightened awareness of angels, and attempts to answer questions that just people would ask, Who are the Nephilim? We're still trying to answer that question. Some people think they know, I don't think we know. I tend to lean towards the line of Seth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Nephilim in Hebrew literally means fallen ones. It's not very descriptive, we don't know. Some people, you know, they're gonna write in, this is who it is. Okay, So you're special, you know. It it it's a very very confusing passage where the sons of God have Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Lust after the sons of of or the daughters Dogs. Of
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so that's my answer, Albert. I love you, I'm praying for you. I would read it if you have a firm grasp of the New Testament and the Old Testament, and then I would jump into that.
Donna Martin:Awesome. That was great. And now I'm gonna go download the book of Enoch and read it. Yes. I think that'll
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:be awesome. Don't leave you at night.
Donna Martin:It's a little scary. I I won't. Alright. This is Melissa from Banning, California. It says, hi, pastor Matt.
Donna Martin:You often mention that you sin every day. Can you explain that a little more? I know I'm not perfect by any means, but I don't know if I'm sinning every day. What am I missing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So Melissa, thank you for sending in your question. Gonna highlight this sentence. I know I'm not perfect by any means. That's sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So sin is not evil. Mhmm. Sin is missing the mark. It's missing the mark of perfection, and so I think there's this deep awareness in every human being.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Like you you are an amazing mom.
Donna Martin:Thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're an amazing wife. Yes. Now, let me ask you this question. Are you a perfect mom? No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Absolutely And and here's the thing, the more holy you become, the less the more aware you are of your faults.
Donna Martin:Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The moms in our church who think they're the best are usually the worst. Mhmm. They're just not aware of their faults. Like, you love Devon very much, for those who don't know, that's your husband.
Donna Martin:That's my husband,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:yes. Good looking dude. Black people age so well, it But, makes me so you know, handsome, talented, visionary, but you still struggle loving him from day to day.
Donna Martin:Absolutely. And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and if I sat you down and I just said, come on, he's a great husband, you would know that, but in relationships, selfishness is really at the root of sinfulness. Now, uncontrolled selfishness leads to wickedness Yeah. And evil. And a lot of Christians really struggle with this idea. I I I mean, how many times have you heard somebody say that all sin is the same?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't know. Every time I wanna scream because there's a difference, like, if Devon were to think about lust with a woman other than you or have an affair with a woman Right. What would you choose?
Donna Martin:Yeah. The thinking.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Right. The thinking. And so when Jesus says any man who has thought about a woman is a committed adultery in his heart, yes, but it's not the same as actually doing it.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, that's where I'll get back to Albert's question. It's why we need Judaism. Mhmm. We've divorced ourself from Judaism and so we we live in this Western either or and we and we forsake our our Jewish heritage of both and Mhmm. And we don't realize Jesus is speaking hyperbole.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, he says if your right hand causes you to lust Yeah. Which would be like probably an illusion of masturbation for men, or your eye, lust again, gouge it out, well, it would be a sin for me to cut off my arm, and it would be a sin for me to gouge out my eye, but there have been Christians in history who have done things like Yeah. That because they misinterpret the text. And and what it's saying is is comparing, look, you don't want to live for the pleasures on earth and then miss out on heaven. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It would be better To do that. To cut off your hand and cut off your eye than to go to hell. That's what he's saying. But but we need to understand that, so sin is missing the mark of perfection and it's really the reality of I make mistakes every day. This morning I preached at Cal Baptist, I didn't sleep well last night and my wife asked me, she said, are you nervous to speak?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I said, no. Straight up lie. Now, in the moment, I I didn't intentionally say I want to be dishonest with my wife.
Donna Martin:Right, of course.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But my go to reaction was to self protect, to pretend that and I've been we've been married for twenty eight years, you know, we've experienced physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, you know, you name it, like for a lot of years, my go to is still to self protect. Mhmm. So in that moment, was I completely honest and transparent with her? No. And what I would say was, because there's another step.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I wasn't completely honest and transparent with myself. Sure. And I had to process and go, okay, I'm I 50 do. Three Yeah. Speaking to college students scares me now Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I feel so disconnected
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so not hip, cool, young with it, I have no can't I don't understand any of the slang, and so but where am I supposed to be? I'm supposed to be confident in my relationship with God Sure. I'm just supposed to preach the word, but even as a pastor I'm struggling with that. And so that's what I mean Melissa is that every single day I'm missing the mark. It's not wickedness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's not. So it's not evil. So and that's why Jonah is so mad because the Ninevites aren't sinning by, you know, hey, we accidentally were unkind to our neighbor. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I wanted to do this so badly, the first week I missed this joke, you know how women get their lips done now? Mhmm. And they're just all like duck lips? Okay. They cut off lips.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Ninevites would cut off your lips and then make you talk. So think about how you use your lips to enunciate and speak. Yeah. And they mocked people, they skinned people alive, they burned people at the stake. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They were awful and evil and wicked. That's wickedness. All nations are sinful nations. Yeah. All nation, every nation is sinful and, you know, we have to be really really careful, you know, with language to define what it means, you know, we live in a culture, you know, where, you know, you see the protesters, what's happening in Gaza is genocide.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, nobody knows what genocide is anymore. Mhmm. You know, genocide is the intentional extermination of a people. And so some would argue that's happening, I would just say, okay. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When Israel became a state, you know, Palestinians were a million people, now they're they're almost 6,000,000. That's not genocide.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Genocide would be there was almost a million, now there's 10 Right. Two. Yeah. So you know, what happened actually against the Jews, and that's why it's so it's so awful to me to say that, know, calling Trump Hitler. It's like, wait a minute, there were Jews at that rally.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Like, thousands of Jews at that rally.
Donna Martin:And everybody else You using that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know you know, silence is violence. Yeah. Woah? Okay. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Mhmm. Because, you know, if a rapist is going to rape my wife in a park or be silent and not, I choose silence. Right. So it's not the same thing and so it's we try to get each other all worked up into a frenzy and so Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What I would say is evil is is something at the absolute end of the spectrum of sin. Humanity is at the beginning. I I am not perfect, I make mistakes, to be human is to sin. Yeah. And so it's a propensity, my son was asking me about this, he had a test on original sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I think, some people think is babies are evil, I'm
Donna Martin:like, woah woah woah woah woah. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Mhmm. Are born with a propensity to sin, but an infant is innocent. They have not yet had the opportunity to rebel against God and go their own way. And so, you know, that's why infant baptism came about because Augustine said, well, if babies are evil from their sin, they can't go to heaven apart from baptism, he starts dunking babies.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And a lot of Christians don't even realize, and I say, well, I disagree with Augustine's understanding of original sin. Mhmm. It is the propensity towards sin, just like a human being is is not immortal, we're mortal. Eventually, we're gonna die. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Eventually, a human being is going to sin. Yeah. So just know there's a spectrum, I think that's the right word of It's not all equal. For example, Jesus has a conversation with Pilate. Jesus tells Pilate the Jews, his Jewish brothers and sisters are guilty, listen to these words, of the greater sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And it's it's right there in bold and Pilate is acting in ignorance. Mhmm. He doesn't understand the Old Testament, he doesn't understand, he just wants the problem to go away, he wants to go home and have dinner with his wife or whatever he had to do. So, you know, he was acting in ignorance, maybe he's guilty of not really pressing in or making the right decision, but that's what I mean, Melissa, by sinning.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Evil is and wickedness is literally, so let's put it in the old testament, the word iniquity, so it means crooked. So I have a crooked path. I struggle walking the straight and narrow path. That's righteousness. Transgression is I see the path and I double bird flip you off.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Right. You know, that's when you tell your kid, don't you reach for that and they're like, boo boo, fingers. That's transgression. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's a worse sin than simply not knowing or making a mistake or having a desire to eat a cookie when you shouldn't. Right. You know, and so so that's what we need to teach our kids. What is sin? It's our human nature, this need to cover Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This need to hide, this need to not be real. Wickedness is knowing what is good, right, and true, and intentionally doing the opposite despite the cause. Yeah. And and then there are degrees of that. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, there's a there's a difference between killing one person and mass murder. Yeah. There's a difference between killing a person and being Hitler. That's why I don't like that word being thrown thrown
Donna Martin:out there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Absolutely. He killed so many lives.
Donna Martin:Yeah. So Intentionally.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, intentionally. As a genocide. Any remorse.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think you're right. The closer we get to the Holy Spirit
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Donna Martin:The more his big bright light shines on our heart, and then you realize, okay. I'm not that cool after all. You know? I'm not as righteous, even self righteousness is sin, or, oh, I'm okay. That could be sin, right, instead of holding your heart before the Holy Spirit and say, show me the condition of my heart.
Donna Martin:Is there selfishness in there? Is there evil intention? Am I in fear? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The best example of that is the life of Paul. Yeah. So in Philippians four, he brags about who he is. Mhmm. If anyone has reason to brag, I do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Even more so.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So then let's fast forward to the letter to the Corinthians. I am not one of the super apostles.
Donna Martin:Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now let's fast forward to Timothy. I am the least of, you know, or Galatians, I'm the least of the apostles, and then let's go to second Timothy. I am the chief amongst all sinners.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's the end of his life. Yeah. So at the end of his life, he is so aware of Yeah. Who he is as a person. Well done.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would say is nonbelievers, the reason they go they don't go to church is they truly believe they're good people. This is the false gospel. You will go to heaven because you're a good person. Yeah. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would say is the light of Christ has never shone on you.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely. So I mean, I think Isaiah even, him going having this encounter with the father and going, I'm undone. Like, I suck. I am the worst person, and I just think And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:he is the prophet.
Donna Martin:And he is the prophet, the chosen prophet of the moment. Right? So I'm
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:a man of unclean lips amongst an unclean people. Right. And so we read that, and we don't realize Jews lived their life to be clean. Yeah. Like, that is they bathed, they only ate certain foods, like, they didn't mix claws, like, everything they did was to be holy, and that word, Melissa, means separate for God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And Isaiah goes, man, I'm not separate at I'm not.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Yeah. He sees himself. Great. Who we is?
Donna Martin:So These are great questions. Thank you, Melissa. Okay. Ellie from Riverside? Yes.
Donna Martin:So this week, pastor Fredo and this is kinda piggybacking on what we're just talking about, this week Pastor Fredo talked about repentance. He said the first step is confession and then repenting. What does repentance look like? What is the first step towards it and how do you do this with a hardened heart towards God?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So let's look at confession. Like, had to go to the doctor this week and I just wanna say, part of my life is really hard. Whenever I go out in public, who knows me, who likes me?
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, these are these are things, no matter where I go, that I have to process, my kids have to process, And there are days where I'm like, I just wanna go sell hot dogs on the beach in Tahiti, where no one cares who I am or doesn't. But I gotta tell you, so I had to go to Kaiser on Sunday because Fredo was preaching Mhmm. And the best day of the week to go to the hospital is on Sundays. Mhmm. There's no one there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And people from our church got me into the front of the line and I was so grateful. Yeah. So what I've got to do is I've got to find out what's wrong with my back. Mhmm. That's confession.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Specifically identifying what is the sin. And that's what you gotta work towards. So like for example, I really thought I struggled with lust when I was younger and I think a lot of men think, oh, that's my issue. Well, so I kept confessing, you know, God, I'm so sexually attracted today, please take this away. And then I realized lust was a product, not the problem.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The problem was my insecurity and And once I got to that and I went, oh, that's the problem. So confession is identifying what's actually going on confessing it, then repentance is figuring out how to change it.
Donna Martin:Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I confess to you and so I'm gonna go to the doctor, right, we're gonna find out what's wrong with my back and then they're going to tell me how to fix it. How to repent. That's repent. How do I change the way I'm sitting, the way I'm exercising, what what do I need to do Mhmm. And how do I turn away from this posture I've been sitting in, this life I've been living, how do I change that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And that's what people don't understand, is confession is the first step, repenting is actually turning away and walking away from. And I gotta tell you, I've seen it at this church, I can't tell you how many times I've prayed for organ transplant for people in our church Mhmm. And they don't change a thing about their life. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've literally seen people get a liver transplant who are alcoholics get a new liver and drink that one to death. Yeah. And they never turned from their lifestyle. And so here's what we say, well, it's a disease, so you can't change it. I think it's the most unhelpful, it's the most unhelpful thing to tell someone they cannot change.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You may not be able to change your desire, but you can change your behavior.
Donna Martin:And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:that's what people don't want to hear, and let me say that again, and I just literally spent time with someone struggling with their sexuality, a good friend of mine, and didn't want to tell me. And their frustration was, God, why don't you take this away? God may not change your desire, but he does expect you to change your behavior.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that that and that's a hard thing for us to do, but that's the whole point of Jesus fasting for forty days and then being tempted. Mhmm. Turn these stones into bread. He was hungry. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He could have said Justified. God, take away my hunger Yeah. And if you don't, I'll eat. Mhmm. But he said, man does not live by bread alone.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let me translate. Man does not live by desires for his flesh, man lives for desires for God. And that's that's what people don't understand. And that's the hole in our gospel right now.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because God would never ask me to say no to myself. I'm like, you have not read the gospel. So it's turning away from and I've joked about this, when I'm attracted to a woman at church, I have nothing to do with her. I just I go the other way. If I feel myself getting excited, I'm I'm like, oh, I'm a little I'm a little tingly, what's going on?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A little too funny as my wife likes to
Donna Martin:call Sure. I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:just I just go the other way. Yeah. I just I do not put myself in a situation because I've seen so many pastors, well, God would never put me in a situation or God a minute. You'll love this. The Lord says flee.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he they used have a great ministry called flee, it's fantastic. And I just I just go the other way from it and I, you know, my my my plan for dealing with sexual sin is escape. Amen. And I just run about it, run away from it, and and deal with it later. And that's kept me on the straight and narrow because I just have seen too many good men and too many good women fail and embarrass the gospel, embarrass the church, and destroy their families and their lives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You know, so
Donna Martin:Wait. Let me give you the second part. How do you do this with a hardened heart towards God?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. So that's Jonah. Yeah. So, man, it is it's it's really hard, and what I would say is that's bitterness, so I completely missed that. Bitterness has crept in, Ellie, and I would just really go to the Lord, and I would just write out the things that you are angry with God about.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So God says to Jonah, do you have the right to be angry? Mhmm. Do you know what Jonah says? Yes. Now, is Jonah right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Jonah doubles down. Mhmm. What Jonah is saying is, and this is why this is again, Elliot, I'm getting ahead of myself. This is why Jonah is so important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jonah believes he's better at being God than God is. And is not convinced by, you know, and that's the whole story of Job. Like, Job is pissed, excuse my language, all of these good things have happened bad things have happened to him and he didn't deserve them, that's life. Yeah. But God has a different story, a different perspective, and in the end, I believe when Job gets everything back, it's a picture of the resurrection.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You lost your children, that was unfair. Isaiah sees children in the new heaven, where did they come from? I believe they're resurrected children that we get to raise and the child that you lost is no longer lost, and that's what we're missing in Luke 15. Mhmm. My son who was dead Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is alive. My son who was lost is now found. It's this glimpse Mhmm. Of the resurrection.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we're all just gonna not because how can you mourn somebody that's not dead? How can you mourn a child that's not gone? Mhmm. Like, they're back, they're in your arms, everything will be restored. Jesus says, behold, I will make all things new.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so really going back and saying, okay, God, and and just so you know, Ellie, I I really struggle with this. I really felt like I heard from God very clearly about something that was supposed to happen in my life. I did the Gideon fleece, do you know what that is? Yeah. And I so for those of you who don't know, Gideon says if you want me to if you want me to attack and do this for you, I'm gonna lay down a fleece, which is the the skin of the animal Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I want the is the is the dew on the outside first or the inside? Can't remember.
Donna Martin:It's around and then dry and then wet. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Basically, he's looking for a clear sign from God that you want me to do Right. And it happens. Right. I had three fleeces. God, want you to do A, God, I want you to do B, God, I want you to do C.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Two days later, A, B, and C happened. I thought
Donna Martin:That was it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That was it. I sold my house. I've been in a rental for three years. I was wrong. I was And I and I realized in all of this, this is this is the story of Jonah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jonah thinks that wickedness is in Nineveh. Wickedness is in his heart. Mhmm. And here's the thing that God revealed in me. There was stuff in my heart, I am ashamed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sure. Anger, bitterness, vile, things I said about another man of God, I didn't say publicly, but I said it to the Lord, I said it to myself, I said it to my wife, I said it to a couple people who would listen, and I was so angry. And what I realized in that process was God had to refine me.
Donna Martin:Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the only way that was coming out was for me to get it wrong.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I am telling you, it was two years of pain, it was two years of hurt and I never thought I could say this. I'm so grateful another famous pastor wounded me. Because I was blind to what was in my heart. And I was so focused on what he did wrong, I could not see my own evil. And I remember I have a good friend in Mississippi, he pastors in Jackson, Chip Henderson, and just You know when the Lord sends you an angel?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And the Lord sent me this angel from Mississippi, I've never been to Mississippi. And God, it's weird, God has used people from Mississippi so many times in my life to bring You know, Ricky Jenkins is from Mississippi, Albert Tate's from Mississippi. And so think about all that racism, all that ugliness, God has brought such fruit out of that.
Donna Martin:Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's such beauty. And my friendship's white, Ricky's black, but just, you know, Ricky texts me, you know, how are you pastor? Just so great. But Chip, I would just, this vial was coming out of me. And he would say, now Matt.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now Matt, that's not who you are. Mhmm. That's not what you wanna do. Mhmm. He was he was so good when evil was just flowing out Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Of my And and here's the thing, Ellie, was right identifying how I'd been wronged, but my reaction Right. My reaction, and here's what most Christians, here's where most Christians never go deeper with God, They can't see the problem is not what was done to them. They can't see the problem is the Lord allowed that to be done to them to reveal what's Jesus come out of says, it is not what you put in your body that's evil, it's what comes
Donna Martin:out. And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and how do we know what comes out? What comes out of our mouths.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, we all I didn't mean to say that. Well, actually, I probably did. And that's the ugliness that bubbles up out of me. And so, you know, Ellie, I would just say, I would just go to the Lord and say, I'm angry at you. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think you're wrong.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think I'm a better God than you. And I know how ridiculous that sounds.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But that's where I am. Yeah. And because here's what we think, we believe in our hearts most Christians are actually Buddhists and Hindus. We believe
Donna Martin:in karma. Do That's true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We we do what's right and that comes back around, right? And there are there are elements, know, you gotta sow a good seed, you grew up with a charismatic, you sow, you sow, you sow.
Donna Martin:And you reap.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes it's not fair. Yeah. And it's it's awful and we are actually practically, pragmatically Buddhist, we're more Buddhist and Hindu than we are Christian. Sometimes it's not fair and it's not right. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we got we gotta deal with that and God allows that to show me what's still not right in my And I have watched people age, I've been in our church long enough and I am here to tell you, if you do not deal with your sin in your heart, your family will have to deal with it as you age. Yep. Because you will not be able to hold it in.
Donna Martin:That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's really ugly. Some people grow old, but they never grow up in their faith in Christ and it just gets ugly. And was actually talking about this with my wife, we've been dealing with some painful family stuff and I said I'm actually grateful we've been able to see this because if we didn't see it and experience it, I don't know that we'd change it. I don't know. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and we have an opportunity to change this for our kids. Yeah. And we have an opportunity to change this for our family. And life is not always fair, but God is always good. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, Ella, I'll be praying for you and I can't can't pastor you in a podcast, so I'm sorry, but I just would confess my bitterness towards God. That's right. And and and go read, I think it's Job 38, who do you think you are? Mhmm. Were you there when I hung the stars, when I created the mountains?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, you have no idea what God is doing. The end of the story is good. You might be in a crappy chapter.
Donna Martin:Right, absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I can't say that it's not a crappy chapter, but I remember Hillary Clinton said this after 09:11, she was doing an interview and she said that God, you know, she was talking about Christians say God can bring good out of all things, she said I don't think so. But one day those bodies that jumped off that building will rise and they will not be dead and she will be wrong. Yeah. She will be wrong. And those kids that lost their parents will see their mom, they'll see their dad and hopefully, right, they're resurrected to life Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And not you know, that The towers falling are not the end of the story. Right.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The end of the story was Christ rising. Yeah, amen. And that's what he meant as it's finished. So I'll be praying for you, Ellie, I realize Thank you, Ellie. It's easy for me to say this now, two years later, Ellie, I've been right there with you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Bitter, angry, upset, and, you know, I just think of Peter. Jesus says I'm gonna go to Jerusalem and die, and Peter says no. Yeah. And Jesus says get behind me, Satan. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, God is God is running a playbook that we do not understand.
Donna Martin:Right. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for your transparency in that, and thank you for your questions. Thank you for listening, everybody.
Donna Martin:If you really like this podcast, let us know. Please like and subscribe or leave a comment. And if you wanna submit a question, you can always go to, move.sc/ask. If you also wanna support us, please do. Go to sandalschurch.com/support, and we will see you next time.
Donna Martin:Thanks. Bye.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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