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This is The Oaks Equipped, a podcast from The Oaks Church in Liberty Hill, TX where Pastor Josh Mings talks through the stuff he didn’t have time to say on Sunday, answers the questions people are actually asking, and keeps things way more real than polished. Expect biblical truth, practical takeaways, and just enough humor to keep you guessing whether he meant it.
If you want to follow Jesus with clarity (and laugh at least once), you’re in the right place.
Israel Replacement Theology & the Christian Response
00:00:17 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Oaks Equip podcast. We're here with pastor Josh Mings Welcome, Josh.
00:00:22 Speaker 2: Howdy, everybody. How are we doing?
00:00:24 Speaker 1: We're doing well.
00:00:24 Speaker 2: So good.
00:00:25 Speaker 1: I'm Glenn McGordy and let's get started. Josh, today we're going to look at something a little different. We're going to look at what the Bible about Israel replacement theology and the Christian response. There's been a lot of uptick in the last year about the state of Israel, its place in the Middle East, and a rising Christian animosity towards Israel. So we want to get the right understanding of how we should understand Israel replacement theology and the Christian response. But before we do that, a word of caution.
00:00:52 Speaker 2: Absolutely subject like this. People have an opinion, they have a strong opinion. And look, if you turn on any podcast, YouTube video, uh, this has become quite a contentious conversation. And so some people, some of our listeners will have heard me talk about this before, but this is a good reminder that, um, when it comes to Christian doctrine and, um, what we can do is we can consider replacement theology and, or the counter view dispensational theology. These are both Christian doctrines. And so this conversation isn't just a political one. It's a theological one. But when it comes to theological conversations, it's very important that we put them in the right categories. And what I mean by that is, the way I've described it for years is there are open handed matters and there are closed handed matters. Closed handed matters are the things that are not up for debate. These are the things that in orthodoxy are absolutely essential and required. For example, the virgin birth, the nature of Scripture, uh, Jesus, what Jesus accomplished on the cross, the, the means and way of salvation that is a closed handed matter. And to differ from those closed handed ended matters puts you into the category of heresy. And then with the open handed matters, these are things where brothers and sisters in the Lord can discuss, they can debate, they can come together and try to convince the other that they're right or wrong. But to differ on these matters is not heresy. So these may be things like Bible translation. Uh, the spiritual gifts are they for today are not modes of baptism. Do we sprinkle or do we use immersion? So that's where replacement theology and dispensational theology belong. It belongs in the open handed category. And so, so much of what this podcast is about is, is the healthy dialogue to grow and become equipped. And when it comes to secondary matters, our open handed matters, we want to come humbly and as students ready and eager to learn. And so what I always often ask people when it comes to these open handed issues is, is your theology a home or a prison? Um, if it's a prison, prison means that you have to stay there, you're locked in. You can't go out and learn something new because it's a prison. If it's a home, I can have you over to my house. I can come over to your house. We can. We can grow. We can. We can debate in a loving way. Um, and that's what that's what the groundwork that I really want us to lay here quickly. This is a very divisive issue. And what I see is both sides of the argument participating and acting like this is a closed handed matter when it's actually an open handed matter. And I think us, the listener here, having that that foundation and that grounding is very important. Uh, before we, we turn people on the opposite side of our position into a caricature before we treat them as if they're the enemy, regardless of where you stand on the situation, regardless if you are dispensational or if you are a believer in replacement theology, we both will be in heaven together in the end.
00:04:17 Speaker 1: Yep. One thing that might be helpful here before we really get into the deeper part of the pool, could you talk a little bit about what is dispensationalism? What is reform or covenant theology and this replacement theology and kind of how it fits on the spectrum?
00:04:34 Speaker 2: Yeah. So these are oversimplifications because this is a big, big subject, right? Dispensational theology essentially believes that the Lord has worked in different ways and in different times. And so there's different dispensations, which is just a block of time. For example, the Dispensationalist would say there was the time of law in the Old Testament, the time of the prophets, the time of the early church, and now the time of the church. And so the Dispensationalists will hold that God had a specific agenda and plan with Israel for a time. And now there's a unique and different season that we are in now. Covenant theology, um, which is kind of the opposite of that, is that God has worked through covenants in those seasons and those covenants have adapted, evolved, and changed, ultimately being realized in the person of Jesus.
00:05:26 Speaker 1: They're both grafted together in the tree, and God sees them both in Christ, but not separate as the Church and Israel. Correct. Thank you. And the last one, just in general, what is replacement theology?
00:05:39 Speaker 2: Yeah. Replacement theology is typically held more by those. This is an oversimplification, but it's held by those who are probably more on the covenant theology side, although there are there are a few dispensationalists who still hold it and vice versa. The other way around too, but it's it's technically called Supersessionism. Um, sometimes it's called replacement theology or fulfillment theology. But in short, what it is, is they they make the claim that the church is now the true covenant people of God. They have replaced Israel as the covenant people. And the church consists of believing Jews and Gentiles united under Christ because of his death, burial, and resurrection. The church inherits all of the covenant promises that were given to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament. Ethnicity or national. Israel no longer has a distinct covenant role apart from Christ and His church. And so, um, so in fairness to those who hold to replacement theology, that's a fair definition, a simple definition. But you have to keep in mind that there are nuances to that. There's something called strong supersessionism or strong replacement theology, which states that God is completely finished with the nation of Israel altogether, and there will be nothing that he does with them in the future. That Israel has no unique future in God's plan. That's super cessationism. There's also a moderate supersessionism or moderate replacement theology. And this is important because what I see oftentimes is in in the churches. In people's critique of replacement theology, they need to know that there's nuance in it, and they make these broad statements that are oftentimes true and not true. Excuse me.
00:07:30 Speaker 1: So what's your take on replacement theology, and what are some biblical citations you could give us to kind of explain why this may or may not be absolutely biblical?
00:07:40 Speaker 2: Well, here's the first thing that we need to do. While I, I do not personally hold to replacement theology, we do need to recognize that the church has replaced Israel in some sense. So that doesn't mean that I subscribe to replacement theology, for example, in the Old Testament, Israel was the light to the nations. Israel was the model to the world about who Yahweh is and what he demands and what he's what he's about. And they were called to live as a nation of priests unto Yahweh to the nations. Um, does Israel still hold that function and feature now? No, the church does. Uh, you know, as someone who's been to Israel many times, I think the listener would be shocked to hear that their version of Judaism that they see in the Bible in no way exists in modern day Israel.
00:08:35 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? That's interesting.
00:08:37 Speaker 2: Meaning? Meaning their expectation of what and who Messiah is going to be in no way lines up with what we were taught in Sunday school. There is no temple. Not denying that there are those who want the temple, but all of their life and practices in no way looks like what it did in the Old Testament. And there's lots of reasons why it's that case. So on one sense, we need to acknowledge and be truthful. The church is now, um, because of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and the Great Commission. They are the ones who hold the truth in the light of who Yahweh is. And so in that sense, they have replaced Israel. That doesn't mean that I'm a that I hold to replacement theology, but we have to at least acknowledge that the function that Israel currently has is not what they used to have. And that's because God has one plan, not two. He doesn't have a plan with the church, and he doesn't have a plan simultaneously with Israel.
00:09:41 Speaker 1: Right. And so you're referring back to Romans eleven, right, where the Gentiles would basically would create some jealousy for Israel. But there's a personal hardening there. Yes. That that is.
00:09:54 Speaker 2: There for sure. Unpack that in a second. But to be fair to our brothers in Christ, who we will be in the kingdom with one day replacement theology is not just some idea that they made up out of nowhere. Um, the biblical groundings that they have for are like, here's, here's a few examples. Galatians three twenty eight twenty nine. Just kind of let me summarize, uh, there. Paul writes that there is neither Jew nor Greek, but only those who are in Christ. So what he's doing is he's he's showing us that an ethnic identity does not make up the people of God. That the people of God are made up of all different ethnic identities. Everyone who belongs to Christ is now Abraham's offspring. So you and I are Gentiles. You're not Jewish, are you?
00:10:44 Speaker 1: I'm not, you're.
00:10:45 Speaker 2: Not.
00:10:45 Speaker 1: I'm.
00:10:45 Speaker 2: Not. You and I are Gentiles. But we are Abraham's offspring. We've been grafted into the family. The one, the singular family of God, and that all believers are heirs according to that promise. And the promises that are inherited through the union of Christ have no ethnic bearing. So the supersessionist or the the replacement theology, the person who holds that, they see verses like Galatians three. And that's how they come to that conclusion are first Peter two nine to ten. Paul calls the church. He specifically referring in context to the church as a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession. He's taking the same language of the identity that Israel had in the Old Testament, and he's now assigning it to the church. So again, I'm not a supersessionist. I do not affirm replacement theology, but there's good reason why our brothers a hold this position because they're making a biblical case. They're making. And that's why I say it's open handed. And then Romans nine obviously is the famous one. And where you can go Romans nine six to eight, again, just paraphrasing it, uh, not all who are descendants from Israel belong to Israel. And this is a very important point. The tendency is for us to misunderstand even the covenants and the place that the Jewish people had in the Old Testament. There's only ever been one way to be saved, and that's faith alone in God, right? And so just because you were Jewish and circumcised didn't mean that you were automatically in the people of God. Just like a Christian today who gets in the baptism tank doesn't mean that they're automatically in the family of God, right? Faith alone is the only way it's saved. And I stand on good precedence in the book of Genesis, when Abram is called, he is not a Jew. He is. He is a. He is a pagan, and the. The new. Excuse me, the Old Testament tells us there that he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
00:12:59 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Old Testament is looking forward to the Messiah coming. Yes. We look back. We have the privilege to be able to look back in history.
00:13:07 Speaker 2: one hundred percent.
00:13:08 Speaker 1: But it becomes more clear as we progress towards Christ's appearance.
00:13:12 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Yeah. And so you can go a Jew in the Old Testament could go through the rites, the passages, the the ceremonies, and do all the things and be externally. They could externally look like they belong with the people of God, but their heart wasn't there. Right. And there's plenty of examples of this. The people who left Egypt in the exodus, they wanted to remain in Egypt. They didn't want to be with God. There's countless examples of this. And so like, we need to be careful while I reject, and I can't tell you how many times I'm gonna say this on this podcast while I reject replacement theology. God doesn't have two plans where the Jew gets a special pass just because of his ethnicity. Um, uh, that's counterintuitive to God's salvation work. Abraham believed God. Faith alone. And it was credited to him as righteousness justification. He was justified because of his belief in Yahweh. End of story.
00:14:14 Speaker 1: Yeah. And the Dispensationalists would agree with you. There's save one way. But they believe that in a future time after post-trib that God is going to bring ethnic Israel to to bear the salvation one hundred percent. They will. They will wake up and see the what was originally sort of the the inability to see it will now become more apparent.
00:14:37 Speaker 2: And that's my position. I think that that's what the Bible shows us, is that yes, in one sense, the church has replaced Israel today as the light to the nations, right? And the one that's to go to the nations with the good news of the gospel. But I reject wholeheartedly. And I'll show you why. That God has given up or doesn't have a plan specifically for the Jewish people. One day in the Kingdom, Jesus is going to rule not from Texas. As much as I wish that was true, but his throne will literally be in Jerusalem. There is a point to this. This is the city of God, and there is a a plan that comes into play and that hardening that you mentioned, that is for a specific reason. So let me just walk through a few things. And this is this is this is why I personally reject replacement theology. Isaiah fifty three is a series of prophetic, uh, prophetic utterances that point to the future. And the listener will probably recognize Isaiah fifty three as he was bruised for our transgressions, wounded for our iniquities. The chastisement that was meant for us was put on him. By his stripes we are healed. Um, what that is, is that's a future event where Israel will come to their senses and they'll say, um, oh my goodness, we missed our visitation and we, we killed our Messiah. And, um, in fairness, there, there are people who will disagree with me in that interpretation, but I, I think I have good grounding as I, as I make this argument. Um, and I have just as much backup from theologians to say that I'm right. But just, just to be transparent to the listener that this is a hotly debated idea, but I believe that it is, it is the, the future event. And even if I'm wrong, I have enough on to continue this argument to say that one day Israel will come to her senses. So Jesus says this in Matthew twenty three. This is right before the famous Olivet Discourse, the last a day or two before he's crucified. And in the context he he. He takes his disciples. After appealing to the religious leader, he takes his disciples, walks out of the city, down into the the valley and then up onto the Mount of Olives, looking back at the city of Jerusalem. And he says, Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How I would have longed to bring you in as a mother hen brings a chick, but you would not have me. And then what he says is he speaks about their future. When he says this, you will not see me again until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. So we're making we're making a a conclusion here. He's saying, you won't see me again until. And so the, the connotation is, is that there will be a day.
00:17:38 Speaker 1: There will be a time.
00:17:39 Speaker 2: That he'll come back and. And that longing that Christ had his intention when his first coming was that the Jewish nation would receive their Messiah, but they rejected him. And now what he's done is he's gone to the Gentiles, and the Gentiles have received him. But there will be a day when Israel will come to his senses. And I believe that that will be the fulfillment of Isaiah fifty three. They'll come to their senses and they'll cry out, uh, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, and they'll receive their Messiah as they should.
00:18:10 Speaker 1: And not to get into the weeds here. But is that before the second coming or after the second?
00:18:14 Speaker 2: Well, that's that's hotly debated.
00:18:16 Speaker 1: During the tribulation.
00:18:17 Speaker 2: That's that's hotly debated. Um, I have I have my own theories.
00:18:21 Speaker 1: But.
00:18:22 Speaker 2: I don't know that I don't know that that will be helpful today. My, my hunch is, and I reserve the right to be wrong and I reserve the right to change my mind as I'm flying in the sky up to meet the Lord. My hunch is, is that it would be after Christ takes his church away. That's my hunch, but I. But I could be wrong.
00:18:44 Speaker 1: But if not, somebody will come to your house and visit you, straighten you out.
00:18:47 Speaker 2: Correct. And then the biggest one is Romans eleven, which is what you alluded to. It says there that there has been a partial hardening, hardening of the nation of Israel, but that hardening will, um, will come to an end. Uh, so, um, I'm not, I am not, I do not hold to superstition ism. Um, I reject that, but I want us to be careful because I see a lot of animosity towards brothers. Brothers that mean a lot to the church, for example, Martin Luther, John Calvin, uh, people that we can thank in their contribution to the kingdom of God has been significant. There's many others men that, in terms of what they've done for the kingdom, far outweigh anything I've ever done. And I just want us to, to, in humility, recognize, um, that that replacement theology is not the unforgivable sin. It's an open handed matter.
00:19:53 Speaker 1: Mhm. Makes sense. Open hand subject. What else would you say about the understanding of Genesis twelve?
00:20:01 Speaker 2: Yes.
00:20:01 Speaker 1: Anything more you want to put on?
00:20:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is, this is where, um the, the old idea is in Genesis. And as we were talking before the show, it's also in Deuteronomy. I will bless those who bless you. Yes. Um, and this is a hot button topic. Uh, the question from a hermeneutic standpoint is, does that, does that blessing that was said to Abraham extend to the whole nation? Uh, then the next rightful question is, does that extend to people who are keeping God's covenants. Does it extend to modern day Israel? Um, and there's a lot of nuance to that that people try to answer. And I think the best way to answer that is, is Galatians uh, three. And that's where, that's where we kind of see this coming to reality. Who are the people of God? And, um, on a personal note, and I'm going to let you read some of those, those quotes from Galatians, but I still think that, that we're required to bless all people. So to me, that parsing it out is, is kind of silly. I should bless all people. I should bless all nations. Um, and so acting like, um, I should withhold my blessing from Israel or anyone else to me is, is it's kind of parsing something that's not important.
00:21:26 Speaker 1: But do you think because there are God's chosen people and will again have a second, if you will, a blessing, if you will, from God directly that that makes them stand out a little bit in terms of of nation or.
00:21:42 Speaker 2: Incense in a sense. Yes. And, and listen, um, I personally am invested in funding missionaries to Israel. Israel is my favorite piece of real estate in the entire world.
00:21:59 Speaker 1: Wow.
00:22:00 Speaker 2: Um, I love going there and I love those people. And we personally support missionaries and do everything that we can because we want to be a blessing to them because it's such a special place. Um, uh, but, but I don't feel inclined to say that I'm required to bless exclusively them or to endorse all actions of a people. So are there, is there Is there a. Is Israel a force for good in our world? Absolutely. Without. Without. Without question. Has Israel also done wrong inappropriate evil things? One hundred percent.
00:22:41 Speaker 1: And that's historical too, right? I mean, that's what the prophets continually came after.
00:22:46 Speaker 2: One hundred percent.
00:22:46 Speaker 1: Leaders of Israel. Yeah.
00:22:47 Speaker 2: And so that doesn't make us anti-Semitic to call that out. The truth is, is blessing doesn't mean turning a blind eye. Blessing means proclaiming the truth. Uh, calling Israel to repentance and faith alone in their Messiah. Um, that's the, that's the call of a Christian. And so I think, I think we have a poor definition of what does it mean to bless and, and I think that that's why there's such visceral right now is because the assumption is that blessing means turn a blind eye to all evil, and the people of God must reject that. Uh, the Lord will have strong words when we allow wickedness to endure, when we don't stand up and proclaim truth. And so that's, that's my point of view. I want to bless the nation of Israel, but I want to bless the world with the good news of Jesus Christ. So I don't want to withhold my blessing when I say my blessing. I don't want to hold the blessing of the gospel in Jesus. I don't want to withhold it from anyone. I want to give it to everybody.
00:23:50 Speaker 1: Right? I'm sure like you mentioned, there's lots of ministries and it says a parcel of hardening. So there are some Jewish people, one hundred percent very popular here to have Messianic Christians one hundred percent. So people are coming to faith, right? So yes, we cannot not bless them. Yeah. Anything else you want to close in on that?
00:24:09 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, you know, we gave the warning of, of the downside of this is a true statement. The downside of replacement theology is it has in many cases led to antisemitism. And that's wrong and evil and wicked. And, um, uh, Martin Luther, um, is guilty of this. Um, they've made great mistakes. And as the ultimate realization of replacement theology has come. But I want to share one thing just as a caution to the listener. The extreme of dispensational theology, um, which is the camp that traditionally rejects replacement theology. Um, if you run that to its ultimate conclusion, there's a danger that I have for you too, in a caution, because I've lived it. I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions. So because there are people who would say, hey, we have to bless Israel, you know, they're God's chosen people. Um, um, we can't, I'm going to say this and you're not going to believe me. But there, there have been people who said we can't share the gospel with the Jewish people because they're God's chosen and covenant people? Uh, my last tour to Israel. Best tour guide I ever had. And then on the last day of the tour, he gathered us around and then he, he essentially said that do not come here and share your gospel of Jesus to any of the Jewish people. Um, because we we are God's chosen people. Prominent pastors like Pastor John Hagee subscribe to that same idea. Do not preach the gospel. Uh, they, they are adamant defenders against replacement theology. But because this pendulum has swung so far, they also are guilty of saying they're God's chosen people. So do not preach the gospel. And I say this to you not to pick a fight with them. I say this because this is very, very critical. Our Jewish friends need their Messiah and and and their Messiah came to us, gave us the gospel, brought us into the family of God. As I said in Peter, um, we are a chosen people. We have been grafted into the family of God, and we are called to share the gospel with every nation and every tribe. And that includes the Jewish people. And so many of the ministries that we support in Israel specifically are built around, um, uh, and they're seeing tremendous fruit in sharing the gospel of Jesus by sharing Isaiah fifty three.
00:27:00 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:27:01 Speaker 2: Yep. And it's, it's, you can watch their, their work. Uh, the YouTube channel that I love is highway fifty three. Um, and they essentially just walk around and they share that passage, which most Jews are, don't even know exist. Yep. And so the way that we bless Israel is by introducing them to their Messiah. And we are just grateful that that Messiah, that Jewish Messiah, came to us.
00:27:27 Speaker 1: Last question. Yeah. If you had a family member or a close relative who's real adamant about replacement theology, how would you have a good conversation? How do you go visit their house without getting the door slammed on you? Yeah. What kind of advice would you offer up?
00:27:46 Speaker 2: I would, I would make sure that you you went in knowing that this was an open handed issue, and then you went to learn that you would ask good questions. Help me understand why you have this position. Um, um, help me understand where you're coming from. Um, um, and then ask if they would be willing to hear your point of view. And um, again, I know how contentious this is. I've read the comments on videos and I see, I see how alienating it is. And, um, to me, to me, I want theology to be an opportunity to learn. I look at it this way. What is the greater sin? Having an open handed theological position that's wrong. Is that a greater sin than having a contention or anger or strife or division? I think the greater sin is having animosity towards a brother or a family member. That's the greater sin. And so I want to avoid that. And so, um, my hunch is the average listener, they may have an opinion on this, but the truth is, is they've probably not taken the time to see the other side's point of view and to see what could be learned so that we don't again, that's why I pointed out that there's two different forms of Supersessionism. Did you know that?
00:29:16 Speaker 1: I didn't until today.
00:29:17 Speaker 2: And so it's like. It's like we have to be careful. These are people, not caricatures. And, um, may it be said of us that we're humble enough to learn and ask good questions and try to grow and then link arms. Yeah. Link arms. I want to link arms. If you are a replacement theology person, I want to link arms with you and I want the gospel to go around the world.
00:29:43 Speaker 1: Yep. Yep. Like Jude said, contend for the faith. Don't be afraid to ask questions. I love the fact. Get in there. Ask questions. Learn what you can learn. Yeah. Share what you can share from the Bible.
00:29:53 Speaker 2: one hundred percent.
00:29:54 Speaker 1: And keep it biblical. Keep it theological. Avoid the personal.
00:30:00 Speaker 2: one hundred percent.
00:30:01 Speaker 1: Well, thanks for the deep dive. I think I'm going to swim back to the the shallow end now.
00:30:05 Speaker 2: Let's go.
00:30:07 Speaker 1: Thanks, Josh. Appreciate it.