Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Wedding Artists Community is a place where wedding artists can come together and share their experiences as much as learn with and from each other.
Hi everyone, you're listening to the WAC podcast, a community of wedding artists. I'm Kui, and this is where people who actually do this work for a living talk about how it really works. No scripts, no polish for the sake of polish, just honest conversation about the craft, business, and everything around it. This show is powered by Dream Books Raw, one of the best album suppliers in Europe. The albums you hand to a couple are the thing they keep for the rest of their lives. and DreamWorks Raw is who I chose to get that right. So let's get into it. So, Eric, welcome to the WAC podcast. I'm very proud of having you here. I'm very honored and really excited to have you here because I found some really interesting things about you and some interesting quotes and things that I want to talk about. but first of all thank you for agreeing to be here thank you for your time and welcome it's a pleasure thank you so much for having me uh we um it's been a bit difficult to have a time together to be in front of the computer because i was in mexico not so long ago and then i had a bit of editing to do and i had to organize my workshop so yeah super glad to be with you today and hello everybody which is just listening or watching. I don't know which platform you're going to put it on. Yeah, it's just audio for now. Video is too much of a pain in the ass managing video. No, it's fine. I mean, like I said, it's just a pleasure always to have a chat about the business and other aspects of the industry. And I'm free to fire your questions. I have no special secrets of production or I'm always like pretty honest and frank about what I think. So let's go for it. Yeah. Yeah, we will. So let's start from the basics. You're French. You live between Portugal and Mexico. You shot weddings in 30 countries already, over 300, if I'm not mistaken. and you bring super eight and to weddings right now and i believe for a number of years how did you get here oh it's a very long story um like you mentioned i'm originally from france i'm from a small city which is like only 50 000 people in the north across the belgian border which is like pretty much in the middle of nowhere there's only pine trees and everything but I didn't really grow up as an artist and I don't believe that actually there is a such thing as a artistic DNA in my family but you know I became a photographer because basically I was I was selling cameras in a in a store an equivalent of Lafnac you know like we have in France and you also have it in Portugal and then I discovered the tool and I found it super super fun to use and I started to teach to talk to people taking photos for a very very long time and It became also my passion. And then at some point in my life, I just moved to Scotland. So I moved to Scotland in another country than France in 2012. And this is actually where I started really properly my business. I moved there. I had literally €100 on my account. I just had my camera and I didn't know what to do. And I didn't speak the language. So it was quite challenging. but you know it's every like story has a beginning and I just started this way and then since 2019 let me interrupt you right there but Scotland did Scotland had anything to do with photography or it was just a happy accident that you start in Scotland no no just because I didn't speak the language and I couldn't do anything and I just had my camera I already did a couple of weddings in France but they were just shitty like for my portfolio I couldn't build anything with it but I basically advertised myself on the equivalent of Oleshesh you know like the the website when you can sell like bicycle and tv and camera and everything and I advertised myself on this platform and then 15 days after I advertised myself I actually booked my first weddings and I was expecting to cover weddings in the highlands and in the nature and everything. Actually, I found weddings in caves, in pubs, under the buildings with no lights, only artificial lights in Glasgow because that is where I used to live at the time. And I was lucky enough to meet, like I said, all the time, the right people at the right time. I met the people like the Kitcheners, Mark Pakura, also on this platform. And we started to build trust on one another and we exchanged knowledge That is like an amazing thing about the community I don think it the same in any other photography industry but we share a lot you know we open up on everything on every topics and basically also was lucky to be part of the wedding collective which is a collective of wedding photographers based not only in Scotland nowadays but also all over UK and basically I really really thought okay you know people believe in me. I'm going to be able to make it for a living. And then I dropped my full-time job and I was doing like photography on the side. It was just like a passion. And I just wanted to build a little bit, my trust in myself and my belief, you know, on my knowledge and my business and everything. And then one day I just say, okay, I'm going to stop to do this job and I'm going to pass full-time wedding photographer. It was in 2013. And 2014, I was actually full-time wedding photographer covering 57 weddings in a year and that's basically gives me the trust you know to say okay i'm going to project something else than just taking nice photos i have to build the proper business i have to build the website i have to build a personal and the proper identity and somehow and then so i basically i grew up in the business pretty quickly in that sense and then 2017 I won the trophy of Bodaif like best wedding photographer which basically gives even more trust into the process you know like I actually say okay but as far as I know that year 17 and 18 I think those were really good years for you because you won that the Bodaif I think you it was one of those years that you were nominated rising star for rangefinder magazine it was 2019 for the rangefinder Okay. Yeah. But I noticed that those were really cool years for you. Yeah, of course. I mean, I really believe, you know, at the beginning, you have this kind of algorithmic evolution. You know, everything goes fast. You know, like you're learning a lot of things. You're absorbing everything about editing, like building a proper business, accounting and popularity and SEO and everything. And it just really, really gives you this kind of extra boost and trust in yourself. and then 2019 I split with my ex-girlfriend and I was thinking okay should I stay in Scotland or should I move to another place and actually did the workshop a few months a few months back to Porto in not far in the north of Porto and I don't know I felt something really special about the country it was beautiful it was sunny and maybe like not really the reality of the winter time in Porto but I really love the country I really love the vibe of it I was thinking about I want a really, really nice place where I can just have good food, meet good people, living not far away from an airport and not far away from the beach, because I really like the ocean. It was really, really part of my choice. So I moved here back to 2019. And then I was moving a lot. This year, I had maybe 25 or 26 weddings. So I was based in Porto, but I actually worked everywhere. Like you mentioned, I worked in 30 different countries through the years since 2014. Was that a goal of yours from the beginning or just happened and you just liked it? It was a goal because from the beginning, I always think like I want to do two things through the year. I never want to see the wedding venue before the wedding day because I want to see it with open eyes, like a child opening Christmas gift. It really gets me curious and I really want to document it as one of the main characters of the story. and the second thing was I really don't want to shoot the same venue twice in a year because it's not really good for my creativity it's just something in my mind I totally get it if some people want to shoot weddings in the same location because it's not far from their family or they don't want to get too far away for me it was always a purpose to do something different different culture, different kind of weddings different kind of light because like you might not realize it but when you start to shoot weddings in morocco or scandinavia the light is very very different the green of the vegetation is different so you really really need to adapt and and the timings and the strength of the light at different timings of course of course and i think that's the biggest evolution of my business is not about the production or the or you know the editing or something it's just no matter what i always try to find the right light for me and the right light, the one I love. And I can manage any kind of light situations. I will never be like an amazing, talented photographer or a proper artist in my own mind. But I always can find, you know, a specific way to find it interesting and document the day as it is. And I think that what I try to achieve through all the weddings I done so far which is the number It really interesting because one of the more usual conversations I have with photographers is the difference or the idea of artists versus just a service provider. and you uh and i have to be honest when we met last year on on shoot fest i didn't know your work but then i but then i went and see and it just blew my mind so um you're one of the the photographers that i know that i really can really confidently uh say they're you're an artist and you're probably and you hear saying you're not you're not to yourself as an artist which is the thing that is really interesting and always funny with photographers and artists some guys that I think that's just my opinion some ones that I think are not really artists are just good service providers see themselves as artists and the other ones whom I see as artists don't see as that but it's really interesting to me but why don't you see yourself as an artist what what has the word artist or art that really strikes you that much so you can you can't i mean it's probably because of my imposter syndrome of course we're like 12 years in the industry i still feel it uh but i just accept it i think it's just like part of who i am and and what we try to achieve with my wife in the business. But yeah, it's more about, you know, for me, an artist is a proper artist, I would say. It's someone which is ready to suffer if he cannot express himself through his art. You know, like a musician, really tormented, you know, really, really melancholy. He can have these kind of things. The only way for me to feel like an artist is my website because it's my platform, it's my museum, and I build it on a certain way, like I want to transmit a specific message, but that's it pretty much. What I try to basically say to people when they actually book us, because obviously the main target of the website is to find couples who actually trust us, is basically saying like, what we're going to give you at the end of the day is what we felt during your wedding day. You know, like what I felt as a provider and as a photographer and what I will give you at the end is the story of your wedding seen with my eyes, my expertise in somehow. And then of course, at the end, at the end of the page, which we create for each couple, we also give them enough material for them to create their own version of the story. So it's like, you know, I always think like at the beginning of your business, 80% of the photos you're going to create are for the couple, 20% for your portfolio. And then it starts to be like 50-50, right? Potentially. today and I have absolutely no shame of saying it 100% of the photos are for me 0% for the clients but because my communication is so aligned with this kind of vision I will always touch people which can understand that purpose because the goal for me is to have fun playing with my little cameras explore with super 8 with Polaroid or whatever I have with me and basically give them what I felt during the day this is why basically Eric René-Penoit is kind of disappearing from the company and soul mind heart is basically taking the core of the business which is basically my creativity my brain my emotions my feelings and this is what i try to give through the process of taking photos so i will usually give about 1 800 images minimum per wedding and i take between 8 000 to 10 000 images on the day because i always use use the burst mode but not because i'm afraid of missing the right shot it's just because for me everything potentially has to be animated so it's like a proper yeah i have i yeah i have a couple of questions about uh about that just uh for the next for the next part but but i i really i really love reading that about you um because it really made sense to me although i can i'm not are not the same. I don't think exactly the same, but I'm always torn about those numbers from the photographer who delivers 500 or 600 images. So you're delivering 1,800 right now, and I think a few years back, you delivered 4,000 or 5,000. We can come back to it I can tell you why Yeah we will And to me I always navigate around that because from one side I know the value of having less photos. You will value them individually more. But at the same time, if I always say this to my couples, I don't have use for beautiful images in my computer. If they're beautiful, you will receive them. I only cut if they're redundant or not great. So it's always a different, difficult decision to set a number. So we just stopped doing that for a number of years. Exactly. I mean, nowadays with hybrid cameras and mirrorless cameras, it's so much easier. And what I'm basically saying all the time, it's basically what makes me click the camera, what makes me press the shutter. It's a feeling I felt at that specific moment. It doesn't have to be all the time calculated. You know, it doesn't have to be like on a specific purpose. If you feel something, just press the button. It will not cost you a lot. It will just take you like a micro gesture of just pressing the shutter. And my favorite image will never be the favorite image of the couple or really rarely. so I always prefer to give more than less of course I'm really good at understanding the stories and the layers between what's going to happen through the day but I will not get the full picture which is impossible to have in reality so I always prefer to give more than less for that specific reason we will go deeper on that just in a minute but first I have one last question about the life you chosen where you are right now because you're in in porto in the summer mostly and then you go to san miguel dalende in the winter right because your wife is from mexico my wife is mexico yeah so um is this was this a choice a consequence a consequence was this a deliberate accident how did you structure your life to do it in this in this way well basically like obviously i met my wife because i was taught to do a workshop and teach what i do and how i do it in mexico mexico city so some friends basically invited me to to teach to mexico and then maria was one of the provider because Maria is not only an amazing second shooter slash assistant slash minister of finance taking care of the finance of the company she's also a jury maker and a florist and you know that actually makes sense on the full in the full picture and she's really um like really really attached to her the family value and spending a lot of time with her parents and everything and also her dogs because she has a lot of dogs so we basically felt the necessity to come back because I also want my wife to be happy and I say okay maybe we can escape the Portuguese winter and maybe move to Mexico at some point and then I started to build my website around this idea of having two different seasons and polarize everything and split into two and which we did and then we started to book weddings in Mexico and nowadays like it's been we've been married for almost five years now like next month is going to be five years and yeah we work like this we spend like seven eight days of the year in portugal and the rest of the year in mexico and then we started to work in latin america like peru colombia and chile and and the u.s we try to avoid for many many reasons and the visa reasons mostly but yeah it's super super happy mexico is a beautiful country portugal is equally a beautiful country i love to work in both and they are the weddings are different the markets are different you need to adapt a little bit but you know adjusting this kind of lifestyle is it's a blessing you know it's a beautiful life so you know have the best of both worlds you know that's that's the reality coming back to to what i was going to ask you a little bit earlier and this is why i wanted to to to be more deep I have the theme of this conversation of this part a quotation of expression used by yourself which is the frustrated filmmaker and I love that because this is one of the main reasons why you shoot around 10,000 or 12,000 images a year a wedding and why for some reason you deliver thousands of images and although you're saying you're not delivering that much you still deliver a lot. So talk to me about that, the frustrated filmmaker. Always drawn by storytelling. And for me, storytelling is a succession of like a plot of a main story, which is a wedding most of the time or an elopement. And then the transitions and then this kind of give this natural flow of images, you know, like this kind of current, what you imagine like a river. And for me, like a transition in wedding photography should be like a movie. So, for example, when I do editing, it's kind of my safe bubble. I like to be a caveman and I like to be in front of my screen and everything. And usually when I do editing, I also watch movies at the same time because I need to put myself in a specific mindset and the mood and everything. So I know I have this kind of 10,000 images, which I took during the day, which basically it's kind of, if I have to use one sentence, it's like, if the light is calling you in the corner of the room, you need to answer to this light. You know, you have to take possession of it. You know, it has to, it's like a calling, you know, it's, I don't know how to express it. you really have to see it. But I guess you know what I mean by this. And then basically when I am in front of the computer, I can watch maybe seven, eight, nine movies a day while I do my editing. So everything has to be animated and I love the cinematic approach. You know, the kind of piece of theater. When you watch a movie, you never see directly the main character of the story. There is always like an introduction and a flow. And then you see the transition. It can be like an empty anger on the bed. And then, you know, the dress is obviously on the bride. It can be just people walking. It can be just the wind. It can be just everything. Like all the elements basically comes together. For me, the storytelling is more about, like I said, a succession of images, not only one image. That's why I don't have such thing as a portfolio on my website because for me, it doesn't make any sense to just sell one, like a best 30 collection curated from like my best work because it doesn't make any sense to my mind. But, you know, I'm happy because I still can touch my couples. And then I started to introduce more the video process by adding the super eight, which is also a reflection of what I try to achieve in photography, which is more imperfect. I hate crispy images. I hate the fact like the modern cameras nowadays, everything has to be super sharp so that's why i want to come back and shoot everything like super super wide open i should almost the entire wedding at f1.4 because that is like more about the feeling about about i don't want to be dominated by the camera i just want to take the shot because it reveals something sometimes i have misfocus sometimes i play around by putting something in front of the camera it can be my condensation of my mouth or my degrees from my skin in front of the camera and i just take the shot and or sometimes i would do blurry images by changing the speed shutter but you know it it all makes sense you know like because i have this secure shot with everything is super sharp and everything then i pass on like the free mind images so it's like but how do you manage those two things on the same day do you do you you have different cameras you have uh you have a camera for the moment you have a camera for the other you have one of the team doing thing one thing and you do the other i do everything myself i have one different cameras no no no i have one body one lens it's amazing i i shoot everything with my sony a93 it could be any camera to be honest like i'm i'm even thinking about buying a d200 from Nikon because it's a CCD sensor and I love the colors from the Nikon D200. But I do everything with my Sony and the 35mm f1.4 from Zeiss and I just shoot with that. And I can produce a full wedding just with one body, one lens. That's awesome. But again, by just changing a couple of settings, you know the advantage of using Sony is you have the aperture ring on the lens and then you can change the settings. So you just simply have this kind of mental gymnastic of changing the speed shutter, closing a little bit the lens, and then you have like moving a bit and then it's kind of create this kind of mood. Or, you know, I don't have any filter. Yeah, I worked with Fuji a few years, six or seven years ago with X-T2. And it was amazing. I then came back to Canon after a few, when they released the R segment. But that was one of the features I really missed and I really love it. It's really fast. It's super fast. And then you can do also, thinking of it, you can also do like a GIF or a GIF. For example, when you see the light decreasing in the sky by just simply closing the lens. So you can do actually a lot just through the camera by just experimenting. And like I said sometimes I would just do the focus on the subject I use only the front focus never the back focus for example I would just press halfway turn the camera and then do that And then I turn the camera again, and it kind of gives these blurry images. For example, I did an experiment that during the workshop. I was teaching to people how to do it without any filters. Or during the day, I would just put the sweat here, and I would put it directly on the lens, and it kind of gives this kind of weird effect, and I just take photos with it. But again, because I know what I like, I know exactly what's the purpose of it and I can just have the photo people expect me to do and I will just do the photo for me again. Like this is my photo. This is, I take the lead on that and because I know I already have these secure images and I just create something for me and I will put both of them into the final gallery. And if the clients like it, it's a win. If it doesn't like it, then it's okay. You have just lost like maybe two seconds at creating the camera. Then you clean it up on your T-shirt or your shirt if you are wearing these kind of things. And that's it. It's very super simple to do. Yeah. I really love your approach. But you have three main inspirations in cinema. Wes Anderson, Denis Villeneuve, Andrei Tarkovsky. What did they brought to you that a photographer couldn't or any other medium couldn't. Wes Anderson, I know. So I really know Wes Anderson. So I love the center point. I love everything the guy does. The other ones, I don't know. Well, it's more about a blend of everything I love. You know, it's not like specifically three names. I think it's a little bit more large than this. My master in photography is more Mario Giacomelli. which is like an Italian photographer, which is like everything more like artsy and more experimental somehow. And in video, I really love everything. I love like Yasuo Girozo, Andel Tavskolk, Tarkovsky, Bellatar. Denis Villeneuve is like my master because he can still keep me interested on the story. And I also love the framing and the coloring and everything. So I think this kind of also with time, I can see like the photography, maybe business corrupt at somehow my vision, because maybe sometimes I would just analyze the image and say like, oh, the light is there or something. I think I would love, for example, at some point to become an assistant director of photography in cinema industry, but I don't have the knowledge. So it's like I said, like you say, even yourself, I'm a frustrated videographer because I would love to become a videographer. I would love to have the knowledge of it, but maybe I just I don't feel ready for it maybe I'm a coward I did one wedding video I bought like proper camera proper microphone and everything like a couple of years ago and then I did one wedding with it and I sold everything the day after the wedding because I felt like the camera was controlling me it's a weird feeling you know like but super easy it's kind of matching so it's like okay I can do it I can do photo and video at the same time I just shoot with my Sony A9 on my right hand and the Super 8 on the other hand, and I just shoot the wedding like this, and it's totally fine. I don't know. I really understand what you're saying about video because I have never tried it. Well, I tried it for really small things, and I really loved it because I love what you say about the transitions. I like photography because of the stillness of it, But I love the transitions, the way you present the places, the light, what you can do with the flow of things. And also the audio, the voices and music. I really love that. But I always, I think it's in my case, I think always was working with some of the greats in Portugal made me a coward also because I think I know how it's done well. So if I'm not prepared to do it well, I won't do it, which is stupid, I know. And I think it's really stupid because you have to start somewhere. because I know what to say about it. Once you are really comfortable with your artistic as a photographer, as a photographer, it's weird to change all that much. But once you bring the approach of a super 8, whether you're really working with a real super 8 or just using that kind of old approach, it's simpler and I think right now the way the media is right now the world is right now I think it even a little more interesting Just the simple things not the overproduction of a video And I was actually searching for the right medium for me to express myself in video. It was GIFs or GIFs for a very, very long time. And I loved it and everything. And then I discovered, like, actually can do video using Super 8 because, again, it's imperfect. You know, it's the result of grain, there is a lot of scratches on the film, and it's kind of matching exactly what I try to achieve. So it's a cool process on that. Quick pause on the episode, just to remind you that this episode is powered by Dream Books Pro. Here's what I actually want you to know about them. They're a big company, one of the best album suppliers in Europe, but they're run like a small one. Every time I deal with them, personally, it's warm. and it's the first instance is always to help. That's rare. The other thing is about what they give back. They put real time and effort into this community through events like ShootFast and a lot of other initiatives that exist to make us better at what we do. They're based in Portugal, but they're strong in Brazil and in the United States too. So wherever you're listening from, you're probably closer than what you think. If you're delivering albums to your clients, go look at what they do. Tell them who sent you with a hug. Now, let's get back to the episode. I really love your vision in your mind about the way you approach not only the business, but the art. And we'll get to the business really soon because I'm really interested in how you do things. But there's an interesting thing about you that you have, as you say, light Asperger's. and I'm not really educated about the condition and I know it's a spectrum you can go correct me if I'm wrong I think you can be at the extremes it can be something like how does it call it autism, I think it touches in a little bit at the extremes but how is that a superpower and a hard thing to have in your case? How did it mold you? I made the test when I was living in Scotland because my ex-girlfriend basically told me at some point maybe I should be tested, which I did and everything. And then I just explained a lot about your childhood and the fact like I didn't have any friends at that school and I didn't really connect with them. I didn't really, really understood their way of thinking. I was just very lonely and school was always a problem for me. I had like always issue with my teachers. They always thought like I was a dreamer and I was not really paying attention to classes and everything. But that explains a lot because when you know exactly what's going on. So like you said, I have like a slight asperger's, autism asperger's syndrome, which is like really, really connected. there is some really like things which triggers me but it's only slight autism it's not like a really deep autism my my nephew for example has a really heavy autism and i can obviously see the difference you know i i'm an adult i made a choice for myself i pay my bill i can cook for myself i pay my taxes you know i can basically deal with this kind of um um this kind of things i usually don't talk so much about it because it's just part of me and everything i think it's just like I think the propension of autism in the wedding industry and the photography industry is probably quite high. I don't know if you recognize yourself on the other side of the microphone when I say that. But it's just about maybe in hypersensibility and you understand basically like an emotional sponge, the connection between people. Because we have usually like Asperger, autism syndrome. we have this kind of ability of understanding maybe a different layout different layer of of connection with people that's why sometimes i feel really really connected to some stories sometimes it's a bit less but you know it's all about enjoying the process everything may be about you maybe at somehow maybe it's not like being egoistic or something but again i create the photos for me and then by extension i sell it to the clients i don't know there is like a full analytics you can do behind it it i don't know if it's a superpower or just something i just surpass nowadays because i i know it's also a job and i still want to enjoy it for many years to come um but i don't know it just maybe me talking about this you know some something some some topics maybe i super comfortable to talk about maybe this one i not super comfortable to talk about that Maybe it possible Yeah it makes sense But do you think that because one of the things you talked about earlier is a thing that I really struggle, which is editing and being a lot of time in front of a computer doing the same thing, because my mind is really mathematical and And I really strive on problem solving. You see, it's really, I can be much more interested in engaging doing a website. I was once a programmer, so it makes sense. I can be six or seven or eight hours in a week. We're just interrupting for meals and sleep and logistics with the kids that I really have to do. But just as an interval, my mind never leaves the problem I'm trying to solve. but if you put me in front of a 200 image session that I have to cool and edit, I will find other things to do in five minutes. And to me, I know it helps me in a lot of things, in the progress, in the business and in everything, but at this main core of editing your images, to me is really, really hard. So do you think your brain just works in a way that helps you doing the really long editing? You feel calmer that way? Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm like you. I cannot really pay attention. I cannot focus 100% of my tasks on something. I'm always good at multitasking. But, you know, I can do this. I can reply to the email. and then I take like five minutes to watch a video at the same time about camera, about inspiration, anything. I always have to browse a little bit of everything while I do my editing. It just maybe the creative process, which is like that. I can watch movies at the same time. I can watch a full TV series in like eight seasons in a week. I don't know. I just try to also to, I just hope people can understand it also correctly when I saying basically like, I never want to work 100% of my capacity fully on what I'm doing. I think 80% is a good number. Like I really can focus 80% and save this 20% just for me, for my mental health somehow. So I think it's just my creative process. But, you know, I understand obviously people which are productive and they need to do like big, big things or they're going to use AI and they're going to be super, they're going to build a brand basically. You know, like maybe I'm more like not so much branded when I just like do whatever I want to do during the editing process. It's just for me, part of my creative process. I need to put myself in a specific mood. I will listen to specific music. I will watch specific movies. It can be big production or really, really independent movies like nobody knows. It doesn't really matter. I just need to not only focus on the images but to something else. but you know it's just the way I work yeah it's just interesting to me to use the film using cinema and films while you're editing but I most definitely will try that for a number of reasons the first one is I have a number of movies that I want to re-watch and I never have the time I have three kids it will not happen it's also the time for you to be honest You have to be inside yourself, inside what you felt. Because anyway, the moment of the wedding is gone. There is nothing you can do to come back to time and be there again. So you have to put yourself in kind of this romantic, melancholic maybe path to basically understand and start to develop other things. It can be just adding light where there is no light in the picture by painting the light through light room or something because you felt something. and then you start to explore and everything. It's like, you know, you have to put yourself in this kind of mindset. Yeah. The thing that I think is difficult, mainly, I think, broadly for everyone, is finding how your brain, how to work with your brain, how to understand it. In some things I understood mine, for instance, when I'm writing emails, important emails, or if I'm writing copy for my website or some really important text, I always put classic music but from soundtracks. If you put the soundtrack for Interstellar or for Inception or for Gladiator or something like that, you will almost feel exactly on that spot and just really powerful. And it's great. And when I have some editing to do, I usually put podcasts because that fills my brain on other things and I can keep my mind going through the things that I'm hearing and just in focus and dividing my attention with the eyes and the ears. But I never tried movies, and that's what's interesting to me, and I think I will try because, as you say, soundtracks have the power to put you on a really powerful and epic sense, But I think movies have the other thing that it's the mood. You can have the romantic part. You can have some inspiration also. In France, we have this thing about what is called la Madeleine de Proust. So you have your little Madeleine. You know this kind of bakery when you just, it brings you back to your childhood. You know, like it brings back automatically. Or for me, there would be like specific sweets from like... or smells that exactly smells and everything so for me to come back to this memory i would just basically put myself in a certain zone and maybe that's my asperger talking you know like it's possible too uh but you know i have to put myself in this kind of specific zone and i can just my my brain can just escape from myself can go to another level of creativity and i but again like like you say movies music is the best way for you to express yourself and start to develop something else because you're going to be creating these kind of specific things which are going to put you in a specific mood like you say sometimes if i want to go to the gym i will put music from rocky balboa you know training exactly it has this kind of superpower of just putting you in a specific mood or my wife she watched she listens a lot of classical music for example nowadays me i would just listen like a very very dramatic deep blue music you know like I never listen, for example, jazz music because for me jazz music, it takes my brain all over the place too much. Exactly. So I really need to put myself in this zone and then I can basically develop something else, like another layer of me. Yeah, that's really awesome. So now you have that dedication to the art and you have a really keen mind also to the business. And not only the business as the business is supposed to be, making money with your craft, but also the marketing of it. And I'm really interested about both, but I'm leaving the marketing to later because I'm really interested in that. But first, how do, with such an artistic mind, it's something that with your workshops, I know that is probably the thing that the photographers struggle more is how to turn the thing they like to do, the images they like to create, how to turn it into a money-making machine that can provide for their life. Not exactly make them rich, but to provide for a good, healthy and beautiful life. how do you approach these things and how how have this path been to you on these last 13 or 14 years well before being a photographer i was a commercial so i used to sell all kind of things it was like apartments uh pills for pharmacies it was like you know can you cannot like cameras that's actually how I started photography. And I was really good for selling the technical aspect of it. And me, which we basically had this kind of Asperger syndrome when I was a child, I was really lonely and everything. My first job was actually working as a customer service, facing people having issues with their computers and TVs and everything. And I was tried by a knife twice, like twice a guy put a knife under my neck and say like, you have to fix my TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a crazy experience. but you have to build this kind of persona which is more sure of himself and everything so today you see me and you maybe you hear me and i'm talking about what i do for the last 13 14 years so of course i'm super comfortable talking about it but maybe from other topics you will find me super super shy and and not talkative at all it's just the way it is like i don't know after 47 years i start to know a bit more about myself and these kind of things but then like developing into a business is basically like how quick you going to learn your lesson And sometimes you do good sometimes you do bad And then you basically have to put your effort on what is working and let it go on the things which actually don work And for me, it was all about creating an experience for the clients. So, of course, I developed my website, my branding. So I knew, obviously, what kind of content I needed to have on my website, which is like the homepage, page, about page, a contact form, and these kind of things. And then I started to develop other kinds of things, which basically is more mainstream, you know, like more popular to bring people to the website. And then sometimes I have like really, really secretive pages, which maybe doesn't please 10,000 people visiting my website, but maybe just one and it's enough. And really, I started to explore the joy of writing just for yourself. And sometimes it can be just sharing the music playlist of the month, which I love to do because it brings like an event and it brings people back to your website. And sometimes just a poem in Japanese because you felt like, I don't know, at the moment, for example, I'm really, really interested by Ikebana. Don't ask me why. It just... Ikebana is those Japanese poems that is just one sentence right no no no there is actually a full text uh which i translated in japanese and i just copy paste it uh on on my website uh but there is it can it can be just a lot a lot of different things it can be just showing what i have in my brain but not only with text but maybe with uh just animations or gifs or photographs and people can enter your universe by just looking at the images and so you have again like this kind of free figures which is like the what you could just explore more about yourself. And again, if it speaks only to a minimum numbers of people or visitors on your website, then it's a winner. It's a very simple way to connect and click with them. Usually I try to use two different poles, two strings to call to my clients and we feel connected, which is what I call the language of experience. That's the term I'm using on the website, which is basically sharing the music I'm listening and the movies I'm watching. And then you can meet somebody you have never met before and you start to exchange about these two topics and then you feel connected somehow to these people um it's just like super super interesting to to see how you can click so fast with someone you have you have never met just by talking and exchanging about the things you watch or the things you listen um and then i started to build up and being the best wedding photographer in europe in 2017 and the best photographer in the world in 2019 really built up on that and the trust on saying like maybe the content i'm creating is is not only good for me but also it can connect with people from the industry and by extension to potential clients and it just makes sense you know you start to to say oh why i wouldn't develop this kind of idea or why should i even try to develop this kind of content or this kind of page because if it speaks to you at some point it has to project more than more than your own body you know it has to reflect on your communication, on your business and everything. So it's like a puzzle coming into piece. You know, like you start to see the shape of everything and then maybe that somehow your creative mind will see the colors and the patterns and you say, okay, this piece is going to go this way and this piece is going to go this way. And at the end, you have the full picture. I really love what you're saying and it speaks volumes to me right now, especially. And there's no reason why your business is as great as it is right now. Because as you're saying, you probably did it organically and you just felt like doing it for the really normal reasons of just sharing. But at this day and age, at 2026, we are really going for the authentic people because AI can make almost everything. And when you share those things on website, as you say, it's really amazing because it's really easy to build a good portfolio with a few dozens of images. it's really easy even if you don't take them there's a lot of drama going around there because of photographers using portfolio from ai or some other weird sources it's really easy right now but you can't fake real life real stories real tastes well you can but it's not that easy So it really inspiring because I noticed your website was really special I couldn see all the pages It is amazing Yeah, it is kind of amazing. Yeah, but I think I'm going to do a trick with words, not only amazed, but also amazing. And I really felt it. I really felt I didn't have the time to explore as much as I'd like, But I did a number of hours and it inspired me to leave my corporate mind, my standard marketing mind completely aside and just go with, I like this. Probably someone else will like it and that might be a good thing. And the stupid part is I'm leaving that right now with my clients. I have a medium year, not a full book year, but the weddings I have are really amazing. And the couples I have are really are couples that I built a relation so close, so interesting, so amazing that I felt, why the hell am I trying to make some corporate website some really standard thing just to show that I also let me put myself and Elsa personality, our lives. Let me share more. And it makes more sense, doesn't it? yeah i mean obviously like you have a lot of like people like mentors even saying like you need to curate precisely what you want to show you it has to be only the best of your work it has to be yes of course i'm not saying like this is a bad communication i'm just saying like at some point they also have to click with the character which is behind the camera of course you represent your brand you represent your company and i'm not stupid about it but if they can click somehow a little bit deeper on that like i don't know by sharing your pricing page or have a specific tone through your communication you're gonna have from beginning to the end of the process because at the end of the day as wedding photographer we also leave a little bit of ourself in the photo you know like exactly and if the clients doesn't really understand that purpose and you just of course like again i'm not really stupid i know some clients they just want to feel comfortable and they just want to rely on a professional or some clients they want the most expensive photographer in the country because it's good for their own ego. Each profile of the clients can be really defined on that. What I really want to feel is the clients feel comfortable with me. They trust the process by saying, okay, we know it's Eric. We know he has this kind of ability of building story with what I will give to him through the day because, of course, we are not leaders. We don't have the lead of choosing the venue, choosing the colors of the wedding, choosing the lights or, you know, it's all about testimony and what we can give. But at the end of the day, what you live is also a part of yourself. Really, that's what I believe. And again, like it's not because you're going to have this really curated work, like you cannot have a little bit more than that. And then you start to develop these kind of pages, like you mentioned, which is more about yourself, more about your own taste, more about your vision, more about your philosophy, more about your framing. What inspired you? What kind of music you're listening? What kind of movie you're watching? And you start to basically give these kind of extra values and extra explanation about your work. And I think the best practice for you right now, Roy, if I have to be honest, is maybe for you to host your first workshop. Because when you're going to have your first workshop and you put a date and you have like, okay, my workshop will be on that date. Then you have to force yourself to explain why you are doing it, what kind of clients you want to attract and how you put all together to attract these specific clients, which you really feel connected to. Of course, we are not touched the same way by all the weddings we have done. So far, I've done 313 weddings, which I count the numbers of weddings I've done so far. And of course, sometimes you really feel connected. Some of the time, they are still very, very good friends to me. And we still get in touch from time to time. Sometimes because they live on the other side of the world, but basically we are not in touch anymore. And that's okay. But, you know, they always perceive it as you. You are not only your brand. You're also a human being. you also have your own imagination and you start to basically try to teach that to others and again if they choose you it's never random they have the choice between thousands and thousands of photographers so if they don't really understand why it should be you not only because you're expensive or not only because you have used the newest camera or something like that they have to click somehow you know sometimes it harder to click with people than to click with the shutter Exactly Well not sometimes I think always Because right now, people are more than ever isolated. They don't talk to each other as much. They don't... They're not with people. They're not together. They're just digital. So sometimes I think it's getting harder, even with young people. it's harder to click. And even more, as a couple are trying to, as you say, choose from thousands of photographers, and the quality standard is really high. Everyone does really beautiful photography. There's no, well, there's always some, but mostly there's not bad photographers out there. So the criteria for choosing has to be different. And I think more than ever is personality, relatability. And it's the way we all feel. You follow people that you like what they have to say. When you feel empathized with someone, you know, when you just feel like, okay, this is my safe space. I understand exactly where it goes with it. And then he has this development of being really, really professional, but really close to me, which we are not specifically, but we can come back to it later if you want. But for example, we are not the kind of photographer who bombards with a lot of emails the couple, or we need to talk to them 20 times before the wedding day happened. We are not like that because I am not like that, even with my best friends. It's just the way I work. But they know when I am there with them, I am entirely with them. I give my 100%, like even my 1,000%. I shoot a lot. It's like when I usually say I take between 8,000 to 10,000 images, you should see me working on the day. I never stay into the same place. I'm always like turning, moving around. I always try to create something different on the day. And this is a very good lesson I had from my friend Petar Jorica, a Croatian photographer, which I had the pleasure to second shoot for a wedding in London. and the guy just like uh he just worked so so much um it really really like took my brain and say like okay i was thinking i was working hard on the day but like honestly compared to this guy it's nothing it's like the guy didn't eat during the wedding he didn't sat on the table for like five minutes like and then i was thinking okay maybe i do my business wrong i do i actually shooting by the wedding wrong you know like i'm i have to be there in the moment and just do what I feel is right and then just focus on that and if I don't eat something hot or like like a hot meat or something like that it's okay I mean I'm not the star of the day I'm never thinking of myself I'm the rock star of the day I'm I'm just like there to execute and live a little bit of myself again like emotionally and that's okay you know it's just the way I see my job basically my mission. Yeah, and it's a really beautiful way of seeing it. You talk about the workshop a lot. I can feel it's really important to you and the names you used to give them are also really beautiful and emotional. I think, I believe, Soul Mind Heart is starting to become a thing but in the past you you named it quiet in the wild the roots am i am i right the roots was a workshop did uh which another person did and i was invited to speak okay okay yeah so sometimes i just change the name yeah but right now i the the last workshop i did last week i called my my attendees the poetic lovers but there's a full process explaining behind it so it's not yeah but it's amazing i I didn't know about the workshop because I'm really in need of talking to people, different people. If I knew about it sooner, I probably would go. It was in Portugal, right? So it was in Porto, the last workshop I did last week, but it was only for French speakers. But I'm probably going to open up a new workshop this year for English speakers. I don't have a specific date in mind. So if you want free, you can come over. Just tell me when you are free and I will try to make it. Yeah, of course, let me know. Yeah, let me know when you have dates. I will obviously go. I would say probably October. October is probably the right time. Yeah, it's cool. But this is what I wanted to ask you. It shows you're a really emotional man, a really emotional person. And obviously, you became an emotional photographer. And now it looks like and it shows that you're becoming an emotional educator also. Are these names, I'm sure it's not, but are just beautiful names or do you have a really emotional intent when preparing the workshops and the things that you will not only teach but share as much as you will learn from everyone in the workshop? Well, it's an exhausting process. I don't know if you ever did a workshop on your own or you've been to a workshop. Small things. Yeah, I was with small things. Even the first year I did my full-time wedding photography business back to 2014, I forced myself to do a workshop because I wanted to put intention of what I was, into brackets, successful. You know, like successful means different things for different people. But for me, it really forced me to put an intention of what I was doing, what kind of clients I wanted to attract and everything. And then I usually do one workshop or two workshops a year, sometimes less, sometimes more. It really depends on my mood. Sometimes I feel exhausted and I don't feel like I'm able to do it because it's really, really tried to give a lot of myself. For example, for the last workshop I did, I had like 650 slides to show two days of actual teaching. And the day in the middle was a shooting of one couple and a model. what I teach the method and the technique I'm using and everything. But the first day is all about theory and my story and how to put a lot of yourself, how to build your persona and how to reveal more about your own personality into your business. And the last day is all about technical aspect, which is like SEO, GEO, which is how people are going to find you using AI. Communication with the clients from beginning to the end of the process. what kind of content you can create to make them feel like in a safe space and how I actually click with them through the website and the full process, what kind of content you can create, how it's going to help you to be seen by Google and all the kind of processes. So it's a really, really full experience. It is really, really exhausting because I speak usually 10 hours a day when I do a workshop. so of course I talk about emotion I talk about the feelings I talk about what what it means to take pictures I cry a lot usually on the workshop I don't take it as a therapy it's not like something like I need to talk and I and like project it to other people to for them to understand it just comes naturally because first when I do a workshop I work usually one month for just creating the slides and everything so it's really a lot of yourself really like it's not a It's not a joke. It's really, really showing, I believe. And, yeah, of course, you cannot transmit the same way to someone who basically is an adult. And for me, adult, most of the time, they just don't want to be educated. Even a child doesn't want to be educated, an adult even less. So at some point, if they don't feel connected to the speaker or to the teacher, then, you know, they kind of miss something. So, of course, I have to project a lot of myself. And it's kind of executing a specific process, which I put through the years to project a little bit more than just, hey, guys, I'm a photographer. I've been doing that, that, that. I want trophies in my life. I know what I'm talking about. And then you have to do exactly the same. It doesn't work like that. You have to show more than that. You have to be more specific and more intentional again about the message you're going to try to transmit. Yeah, it sounds really amazing. to be honest I never did a full blown workshop just out of fear I have the fear that no one comes I really I think I have outlined a few I have some PDFs because I really love the experience of sharing of knowing what I've learned in 16 years. Not only the 16 years in the business, but the 41 years in life, having two kids, having a business, and having a family. Some people would be super interested in knowing it. Yeah, but I'm really, I will have to overcome this at some time, at some point, because I'm really scared that I will put something out there and no one comes. It's just funny. It's just me being honest, but it's the truth. I agree. It's always frightening to say, okay, I'm going to put a date and whoever wants to come, comes. you know like the thing like the same like i'm always have this this feeling inside me and say like because i don't really i'm not really a popular speaker nobody thinks about oh yeah i'm gonna ask eric to come to speak to my event or something which which is maybe like a miss i don't know you have to tell me when you're gonna come to my workshop if you have the pleasure to to see me in reality um but of course i'm always thinking like oh i will have like maybe two two people two attendees coming to my workshop because i don't really show my face i'm not really popular i'm not really good looking i'm not really you know it's okay i mean that's i i start to know myself you know it's it's okay with i'm okay with it and but for the last workshop i was planning to have only with 10 people i had 16 people showing up to my workshop it just because maybe it was very cheap it's possible to i don't know yeah you know you know fear fear is a really interesting thing And last year when I talked to Greg Fink, he told me a couple of sentences that just blew my mind. It was the most simple ones. He told me that he always afraid of next year. And I just thought, how the hell are you afraid of your next year? one of the most sought after photographers doing the best weddings on the biggest weddings on the world and he's still afraid of next year it was really astounding to me but it it helped and I think it might help some someone else because the thing is you don't know the future you sometimes you earlier on the beginning of our conversation you talked about the growth you have on the beginning of your career. And I always talk about that. It's really the first six, seven, eight years. It was, they were too easy. Everything happened. Everything was a request. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it was really easy and amazing. But then you kind of plateaued and you kind of think, oh, this doesn't work anymore. Why? and you felt you have everything figured out and you just realize, oh, the world changed. I changed. My couples changed. I don't like this anymore. I prefer that. So I think fear and change in our careers in Ivar, I think we have as soon as we can understand it and work with it, the better. But Greg told me and made me feel, okay, I'm not crazy. Although I don't experience all that fear, but Elsa struggles with it a little bit. More than me for the next years and having a family three kids small kids we always struggle a little bit with the future but it just it life right you don know tomorrow you are so you are you again you are a human being you are not the same person you were six months ago last year and the clients you're gonna get of course are different so you it's it's always like you know we are really living in a seasonable uh business you know when the summer potential is the highest part of the season and then the winter is the time to have a lot of introspection, you know, like thinking about making ideas about was this year really good for me in terms of clients? Like, have I done my 100% for the evening shots? Do I know how to use the flash? Maybe my flash photos were not so good this year. Maybe I can work on it this winter. Or can I work on my website, on my communication, on the website to realign maybe on the couples I want to have this year? So, for example, my style has changed uh from my beginning until today because obviously like now i'm married and and maria maybe put me maybe in a better uh less with less moody kind of images because my mood has changed also now i'm married and i work so work in different locations and maybe the light is different and you know these kind of things all come together my image nowadays they are more I try to put them a little bit more organic look, more analog look and everything. They are a bit brighter because I'm a different person. You know, like I'm not so much anymore working in Scotland in this kind of mood when it's kind of dark and it's windy and it's cold and everything. So, you know, also it's a blessing being married with Maria because she's originally from the other side of the world. So she has these totally different new eyes when, you know, when we travel in Europe, when I even bring her to my hometown, which is for me, it's like nothing crazy. It's just pine trees and nature and rivers. But I saw that for 20 plus years. But when I come back from, you know, seeing this world with my Maria's eyes, it just transformed everything. You're like, you rediscover things suddenly. you know it's that's why it's really really important for me to put the the story as the location as one of the main character of the story no matter where i am and then i put into my emotion into the story but again like maybe in six months you can ask me about the same topic and i will probably have another point of view i'm a different person you know we like i said all the time and i'm in mexico they know me for that because i was doing a workshop about it but we are complex animals you know you change you are a different person you have this kind of past this kind of background your family your yourself your struggles your fears your hopes and you know it kind of changes through the years and and you then you can become a father you can become a husband or a wife or whatever it's it's just gonna make you different so it's super super interesting process you know it's more about getting deeper into psychotherapy philosophy uh you know i'm not i'm not a really funny person i'm not like i don't know so many jokes i'm not super super funny person in real life but i'm always trying to have a deeper meaning about you know like why am i doing here today what's coming in the future what was the past and you know this kind of evolution through human being and how to become the best version of myself and a good person. You know, like I've not always done like good choices and good things in my past and I regret it, of course. But I know I try to be a better person and try to maybe win my place on the afterlife somehow. You know, it's all about that, being a good person. Yeah. Eric, I cannot think of a better way to end this amazing conversation. We will have to sit together and have some beer or Francine Zinha Well I Portuguese or French of course we will have to have food on the table It's okay. Francine Zinha, I'm up to it, so it's okay. Yeah, so this was really amazing. And I think we will have to be together again. but I want to thank you so much for your time for everything you shared for every amazing insight that you gave to me and to whomever will listen and as a closing idea or a closing thought I wanted to ask you if you had to tell a photographer just starting out one thing that probably no bar is going to tell them, something true, not the Polish version, what would it be? I never have the Polish version in me. I always try to say things as it comes. You have to trust the process. I know it sounds a bit like stupid, but you need to eat some shit before to eat some caviar. You're going to learn the hard way. Happily, we live in a community when we share a lot of things. You know, it can always come to me or to the people you or your peer or people you really admire. Most of the time, they're going to be open to it and they're going to tell you like what you should do or shouldn't do. But again, like trust the process. It's a beautiful journey. If you can put a little bit more of yourself and not trying to do it only for the business side and not only for the money. it's a really good practice to go inside yourself and project it to others. Again, you're not there to sell a package of Brussels sprouts or a can of tomatoes. It's all about liking the product and the product is yourself. And then when you understand that, then you can unlock a lot of different things. And if it resonates with the clients, then you're happy and your kids are going to see you happy and then your wife is going to see you happy or your husband is going to see you happy. And then the process just comes into place and you're just going to have a good life. You might not be super rich. That's definitely possible or super rich. But it's going to come and going to make sense at the end. And after 10 years in the industry, if you still see my name in the business and you just come to me and tell me like maybe, okay, Eric was the next ladder for the next evolution of my business, then I accept it. Use me as much as you can. Use the people you know and you love and you admire in the industry as much as you can. And if we can help each other on that process, just take it. I'm happy to do it. Eric, thank you. It was really a pleasure having you here. Likewise. thank you so much for having me that's where I leave it for today if something here made you think or made you disagree that's the point send it to someone in the industry that needs to hear it if you're getting value from these conversations the best thing you can do is to follow the show and leave a review it's how other professionals will find us you'll find everything at thewackpodcast.com and I'm on Instagram at thewackpodcast thanks again to Dreambooks Pro for supporting this episode. I'm Rui, and I'll see you on the next one.