So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

In this episode, Megan & Jennifer are joined by Aneka Jiwaji, commercial litigator, mental health advocate, unapologetic voice on LinkedIn, and co-founder of a custom fine jewelry business. Aneka brings her full self to the conversation and reminds us why that’s exactly the point.

With warmth, humor, and candor, Aneka shares what it means to succeed in legal on her terms, as a racialized lawyer, a mom, and a multidimensional human being. She opens up about finding her voice, navigating a “let them” era of life, and how she’s rewriting outdated definitions of what it means to be a “serious lawyer.”

Learn more about our guest: 
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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 business development lawyer coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches, Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned legal practice, this legal podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

Aneka Jiwaji: [00:00:00] This sounds bad, but I'm gonna say it this way. I just don't care as much as I used to. Like, I just don't. And, and that would impact your health, your mental wellbeing, all of those things. 'cause you were so concerned about everybody and what everybody thought about you. At the end of the day, like I'm always like, do I feel okay about the way that I'm putting myself out there in this world? And not about if someone else feels okay about it or if this person feels, do I feel okay about it? And that's sort of how I like. Balance my, my mental health and my wellbeing.
Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started.
Jennifer Ramsey: Hello. Welcome everybody. We are so thrilled. To welcome our first international guest to the podcast. Aneka [00:01:00] Jiwaji is a lawyer who works at the intersection of law, business and impact. She's currently a litigator at the at a leading boutique law firm, and before that, she served as litigation counsel with the British Columbia Securities Commission.
Aneka has built a reputation for tackling complex legal challenges and translating them into clear, practical strategies that move businesses forward. She's also known for speaking her mind in her own words. She describes herself as a Canadian commercial litigator, navigating a drive for conventional success with authenticity and intention. All stories and reflections shared are through her lens As a racialized woman lawyer right now, she's in what she calls her, let them stage and we are gonna talk about all of it. Aneka, welcome. We are so happy to have you.
Aneka Jiwaji: Thanks guys. Thanks for having me.
Megan Senese: We are, we're [00:02:00] excited. Excited. I know we, we've been, this has been for quite a few months that we've been trying like.Thank you for Yes. Thank you for your patience.
Aneka Jiwaji: No, thanks for having me. I'm so excited. I've done one other podcast before. So this is my, my second podcast appearance, which was very exciting. And my first international podcast, oh, look at, this
Jennifer Ramsey: was your first one. I wanted to listen to it before we got to, to meet each other. Was it called something about LU Lawyers Who Lunch.
Aneka Jiwaji: Yeah, so, um, my friend Reinder Hare, who's a lawyer in town, she's also, she, she's gonna say, I, I explained this wrong, but she's a psychic and she has life coaching clients as well, in addition to her law practice. Um, so she does a lot of work around like energy and, um, that kind of thing. So I was on her podcast. Um, and talking about sort of law and navigating law. And she's also a racialized woman. Um, so just had a lot of fun just kind of chatting with her. But yeah, it's called Lawyers Who Lunch. I think her podcast is called Behind the Eyes, the RKH, so remainder K hair. Um, and I mean, if I do [00:03:00] say so by myself, I think it's a really good episode. So I do think people should go listen to that.
Jennifer Ramsey: That's really fine. We'll, it. Can I ask a question for the benefit of our listeners and audience, just right off the bat, can you define or describe to us what a racialized woman lawyer is?
Aneka Jiwaji: Yeah, so I consider myself to be a racialized lawyer, um, in the sense of like, I, my, my heritage is East Indian and African.
Um, so, you know, I'm, I'm not, I guess the quintessential sort of the white lawyer or what you would normally, you know, kind of the. The older white man sort of, you know, stereotype that people usually, um, associate like lawyering with. Um, and you know, people will say to me, well that is changing. There are so many other lawyer faces.
Um, and I agree with that, but I think when people still think about a lawyer, um, a lot of the times they're still thinking about, you know, like the older sort of non racialized white man with. The briefcase and the suit. And, um, that's, um, you know, something we can talk about a little bit more is like this idea of [00:04:00] what is a serious lawyer, um, and what does that look like?
Because, you know, I think lo I've had this conversation with two friends that I would consider like very heavy hitting litigators. Um, and both of them have said like. In our generation, what is serious is changing, and it's kind of what we were discussing before where people are bringing their full selves to work and they're multifaceted and they do different things.
Um, so I consider myself to be in like that box of lawyer, um, which is kind of outside the box, if that makes sense.
Jennifer Ramsey: I already knew I was gonna love you, Aneka, because, um, of your. You self proclaimed that you're a happy person.
Aneka Jiwaji: I am a
Jennifer Ramsey: happy
Aneka Jiwaji: person.
Jennifer Ramsey: I, I love happy people and thank you for living that out loud and saying that out loud because damn it.
Jennifer Ramsey: Why, why can't we be happy?
Aneka Jiwaji: Totally. I, and I feel like that, especially in like the legal industry, it's just very, like, [00:05:00] everyone I think thrives on the, like, I'm so busy, I'm so miserable sometimes. Oh. Like, it's just a lot. And it's like, I think, yeah, like it, it is stressful at times, but like on the whole, like, I really enjoy what I do and I am, I'm pretty happy about it.
Megan Senese: I think that also feeds into. How you can be so many different things because you're like, I am a happy lawyer, right? Mm-hmm. I'm a professional mom, I'm a professional. We're like, there's all these different sides that people can bring and we're, we're con constantly with the, hopefully with our show, trying to show the human side of all of the facets, not just women that want to be more human.
Megan Senese: And that's the thing that's been really kind of eyeopening for me more recently is that there are a lot of. Men lawyers who want to. Who don't wanna have to like, kill the deal, crush the deal.
Aneka Jiwaji: My husband's like that. Like my, my husband's a corporate lawyer in town, but he like loves lawyering and doing all that stuff, but he loves being a dad.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like he's so [00:06:00] happy to be the one who's like home at 5 36. Like, there's so many times that I'm in court or in trial prep and I'm doing the message of like, I'm not gonna make, he's like, don't worry, I'm already on my way home. Like, he just leans into that like, loves that life. And we have so many friends of like my generation that I went to Los.
Aneka Jiwaji: With who are double lawyer couples, we all sort of met at, at law school and um, the men are just so involved in their families. They're taking paternity leaves and it's a whole new world. And, you know, we've had conversations with other friends of like, you know what, like what's your firm like with you taking pat leave?
Aneka Jiwaji: And it's like. It's always an up uphill struggle still, but people are doing it and they're doing it at like, you know, the big shops and Yeah. Like, they want, they're, they, they're, they're dads. They wanna, they're husbands, they wanna bring that human self to work. Yeah. You know, so, um, it's not just about like, oh, I'm just here, like burning the midnight oil.
Aneka Jiwaji: So yeah, I think that's really cool.
Megan Senese: I think one of the other things too is we're keep talking about all, like all these different selves and I almost was gonna put in, but then I didn't wanna, you, [00:07:00] I know you've also called yourself that LinkedIn girl, like, oh, you're that LinkedIn girl. Um, but I'm like, no, you're a woman first of all.
Megan Senese: But I think so much of, like a lot of our guests we, uh, you know, have found through LinkedIn, but it's a, it's a nice. Platform obviously for being pretty vocal and, and being able to share your information and share your thoughts and, and helping to change the stereotypes. But I, I also think it's provided you with some, like speaking opportunities in conferences too, right?
Megan Senese: Where then you go to these conferences and people recognize you and also kind of vice versa, where people like have seen your content and then invite you to like conferences or podcasts or additional opportunities. I'd love to have you talk to us a little bit about when did that start for you in terms of not.
Megan Senese: When did you start speaking up? Because I feel like that's probably a lifelong, or maybe, I dunno, maybe actually I'll just start there. When did you start deciding to, to, to speak up and then also talk to us about how that showed up on LinkedIn.
Aneka Jiwaji: So like, I was [00:08:00] really. A very quiet child like I had. So that, which is interesting for people who know me, like my mom, you know, we're three, three daughters.
Aneka Jiwaji: My mom always says I was, you know, sort of the quieter child. Um, I was, they would forget that I was there a lot of the times, like, where
Megan Senese: are you in the birth
Aneka Jiwaji: order? I'm in the middle. I'm in the middle. So there's me and my older sister who's also a lawyer in Vancouver. And then we have our younger sister who's, um, there's a five year age gap with me and her, and she lives in Toronto.
Aneka Jiwaji: Um, and so, you know, me and the older sister were sort of growing up together and, um, I was sort of the quiet, easy child as my mom says. Now that being said, I was always talking about something so quiet as in like not maybe vocal about this or saying something's unfair or anything like that, but I was always asking questions.
Aneka Jiwaji: I was always talking about something. My mom says, I would come home from school and I'd say, okay, this happened and this happened and this happened. And I was always very like curious. As I got older, um, I, I sort of started developing like a bit of like what I'll call the justice streak. Like it was a little bit [00:09:00] like if, if something was wrong, like I was typically the one who would say something about it.
Aneka Jiwaji: And that sort of started developing sort of early university, um, when I moved away from home. Um, you know, if something didn't feel right, like I have a lot of friends, even from my first degree when I, when I did my bachelor's, um, of commerce, uh, in, in Vancouver, who will say, well, Aneka was always. Kind of like that.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like I'd be like, uh, I don't agree with that. Like I was in a sorority, so there was a lot of, I'm a Kappa Kappa Gamma. People always said, oh, you were in a sorority. And I say, yeah, I was, I was in a sorority. And so we had a lot of like leadership committees and this committee and that committee and I was very involved.
Aneka Jiwaji: And I was, again, I was usually the one, like I was spread. Now who still says, you were always like, Hmm, that doesn't sound right. Like that was just kind of always my. My role, um, if something didn't sound right, I was very happy to, to sort of say it. Um, and then that just sort of kept evolving. Like after I went to law school, in law school, we were sort of taught like reputation is everything.
Aneka Jiwaji: Um, you know, I, my dad was a lawyer, so I [00:10:00] kind of grew up with that same ethos of, you know, keep your head down, don't make any waves, like just in case. 'cause you could say the wrong thing one time and it's all over for you. So when I first entered the profession, I was. Like pretty nervous I would say. Like I definitely wasn't the way I am now.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like, you know, 10, 11 years in, I was pretty nervous. Like I wanted to sort of toe the party line. But I remember like in, even in my first role, there was someone who was, who was really giving me a hard time just sort of under the table. Like I didn't, and I didn't. And I was like, oh, you know, if I just be quiet, like.
Aneka Jiwaji: They'll leave me alone and, um, you know, then, then it will all be okay. And as time went on, I realized the, the quiet thing, just like it's not aligned with who I am. And it just wasn't working because it, I think it wasn't authentic to who I am. And on that occasion, I sort of stood up for myself. And I think that that started this evolution of me being like, you know what?
Aneka Jiwaji: I'm my best self. When I'm direct and my best [00:11:00] self, when I am aligned with what I believe in, and I don't want to. Navigate this profession, trying to be someone that I'm not. Um, so if I feel like something is not right, and that doesn't mean that you pick every battle or you know, you die on every hill, but if there's something that I feel strongly about, I'm going to say something about it.
Aneka Jiwaji: And so then that was going on first five years, you know, um, I, I was doing that and um, you know, things were going well for me, like professionally. I was starting to build a little bit of a name for myself. And then the pandemic hit. And, um, I felt very, like a lot of the firms in town, and I mean I think like globally, just were not prepared to deal with the fallout mental health wise and the impact it was having on their young lawyers.
Aneka Jiwaji: So I started writing a little bit about mental health on LinkedIn. So that's how this all started. That was in 2021 because we were all so isolated and I had so many friends saying, you know, I feel, I feel really down. There's lots [00:12:00] happening. The demands are still, you know, just as high as they were before the pandemic, but we're now like in our houses, not really having a lot of connection with people.
Aneka Jiwaji: So I started writing a little bit of content around mental health and then I started getting really good feedback. Like people would, you know, come up to me in town and say, oh, I love what you wrote on this. And it was at that stage, this was like 10 years ago almost. It was, it was. Whisper it, you know, like, oh, I like, I like your LinkedIn.
Aneka Jiwaji: Keep doing you, because nobody was doing LinkedIn back then. Like in the way that people are doing it now. And I just really enjoyed it and I started meeting so many cool people. Like people would reach out to me that would, I would've never met otherwise. Um, and a lot of women in town were just like huge supporters.
Aneka Jiwaji: They just loved the writing around women and law. And, and so I started connecting with a lot of them and like building this community with all of these women. So I was like, wow, I really love this. It's giving me this voice that I don't have it, you know, the firms I worked at and, and, and it's just the traditional sort of law firm model, right?
Aneka Jiwaji: You go in, you bill your time, and until [00:13:00] you're a partner, you're not in a leadership position. So you just kind of, it's like once they give you the keys to the kingdom, like maybe you can have an opinion, right? And this gave me an outlet. Side of that to have an opinion and build a like-minded network of people who, you know, really have the same values.
Aneka Jiwaji: And so that just snowballed. Um, and like here we are, you know, like in 20, almost 20, 26, um, still, still doing it. So yeah, that's the, that's the LinkedIn story of how LinkedIn came to be, um, which is why I kind of saw call myself like a bit of like an actor. Accidental influencer.
Megan Senese: I love, I love when you say
Aneka Jiwaji: that, I love, yeah.
Aneka Jiwaji: Because people say like, oh, did you have a plan? Were you like trying to do business development? I'm like, no. I had no plan. I just, I, I needed a creative outlet. I love to write. So it just, it started with like, you know, written content. I do a little bit of video content now too, but, um, yeah, that's a very long answer of how we ended up with Aneka Aneka on LinkedIn.
Aneka Jiwaji: You because I think like people who know me from law school as well, like I was always, and I have a very tight knit group of friends still from law [00:14:00] school. I was always outspoken and I was always a big personality. Like I went to my tenure law school reunion, um, last, I think it was in August. And, um.
Aneka Jiwaji: Someone reminded me like you were voted loudest. Like Aneka. Remember you were voted loudest when we graduated. And it was, it was a small grad class, like I think 60, 70 kids. I'm like, oh, I forgot about that. So yeah, I was always, I was always vocal, I was always loud, but I was very traditional in the way that I lawyered in my, you know, at the firms I was at.
Aneka Jiwaji: I was just like the workhorse, the, you sort of the minority in the back, like, just get the work done, bring out the blah, blah, blah. And I wasn't really vocal in those settings. So this was like a. Creative outlet outside of that for me to be able to do that.
Jennifer Ramsey: Hmm. I'd be curious how much you might feel this in being in Canada, but in this extremely polarized environment that mm-hmm.
Jennifer Ramsey: We are in, particularly in the United States. I, I'm curious how, if, if this isn't happening to you directly, how might [00:15:00] you balance being outspoken, being loud on LinkedIn or other social media platforms? I. And and balance what you're saying and how you feel in your opinion with this potential to have such an outsized reaction.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. To what you might say, almost to the point, I hate to use these words like. Cancel culture, but just seeing what I see on social media these days, it's like someone says one thing.
Aneka Jiwaji: Yeah.
Jennifer Ramsey: And it's just like, rah, and I'm like, oh my Lord. Like I'm just curious, you know? How do you think about that?
Aneka Jiwaji: You know, I, I think about it a lot if I'm being honest.
Aneka Jiwaji: Yeah. You know, a lot of people say to me like, wow, you're so brave, and like you don't care what anybody thinks and you just do whatever. And like, that's, that's not really that true. I think I, I am brave, but I'm certainly considering, you know, a lot when I, when I write on LinkedIn and I'll, I'll tell you like a bit about that.
Aneka Jiwaji: So I think a [00:16:00] context that people don't really understand is like, my sister practices in this city, my husband practices in this city.
Megan Senese: Mm-hmm.
Aneka Jiwaji: Vancouver is a very small bar. So I'm, I'm always thinking about how what I'm doing could in any way impact them and their careers. Right? So that's always a, a consideration for me when I'm, when I'm writing on LinkedIn.
Aneka Jiwaji: The other piece is, um, you know, I try not to write in a way that alienates people, like if you read my content, I, I really try to like do it as a, as a, as an idea or like thought leadership. I think some lawyers I've noticed have been sort of going to LinkedIn and they're, and it's a little bit like of the.
Aneka Jiwaji: So and so, they're not naming names, but so and so I was in court today and they were rude and I was dealing with the worst opposing counsel and blah, blah, blah, and we should all be nicer to each other and listen, like everyone should do what, what they feel comfortable with. But for me, like I don't wanna create situations in which people are worrying that like their day-to-day interaction [00:17:00] with me is gonna turn into a LinkedIn post tomorrow because it's.
Aneka Jiwaji: Such a small bar and you know, people are human. People make mistakes. So a couple things that I do that I don't know everybody else does, who does this in legal, but all of my content is, is scheduled and staggered when it's talking about a specific incident or a specific situation. I do that purposefully because I don't want it to be like, this happened today.
Aneka Jiwaji: It gave me a thought. Tomorrow I'm writing about it because I think that does, that would alienate people. So I try and do that and try and be like respectful around that. The other, and the other thing I try to do is engage with people respectfully in the comments. And some people don't wanna engage respectfully.
Aneka Jiwaji: Some people are just downright rude. Yeah. Right. And, and for that I do the, let them Right. Sure. They can feel however they feel about me. Um. I'm not here to be, you know, everything to everybody every day. Um, so I'm very okay with like, letting it go and not worrying about, you know, what everybody thinks about me.
Aneka Jiwaji: But, um, you know, I am well known in town. I have got, I've got some mentors who are, you [00:18:00] know, I think about them a lot too. I've got some mentors who are like really heavy hitters in town that have really good reputations and whenever I'm doing something, I'm thinking about how that's going to impact on them because of their association with.
Aneka Jiwaji: Me, right? So all of those considerations come to mind when I'm writing content. It is definitely, it's a, it's a really hard balance, um, to, to keep. Um, but I, I really do try to think about things and schedule the content and read it again and say, you know, does this come out in some way of like a personal vendetta or like trying to blast people because that's just not the goal of my, my LinkedIn presence.
Megan Senese: And then that's, that's it. Right? It's like your goal is to connect people, build a community, and continue to be a happy lawyer. Right.
Aneka Jiwaji: And to have a voice, like the goal is not to make other people feel bad, but to make myself feel good, if that makes sense. Right. Like it's, I am not using it as a vehicle to like.
Aneka Jiwaji: Punish people or like, I've had people say to me like, oh, gotta be careful around you. Like, you know, you don't wanna be on the LinkedIn. And I'm like, if you go and read my LinkedIn, like that's just never been the [00:19:00] case. Right. That's not, that's not something I'm trying to do. I'm trying to create somewhere where like, women, lawyers, allies, I have so many men in town who are like, I just love your LinkedIn.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like, I have, you know, my, my wife's lur, my wife's a professional, or I have, you know, I don't know, whatever. They, they have some sort of connection to it. I've, I've heard of her experiences in the work. Place I told her to come to your, you know, your LinkedIn or that kind of thing, or you know, they'll say, you know, like, oh, you know, I, I have daughters at home.
Aneka Jiwaji: I just love that you're talking about these topics. Like, so it's become a really great connector, I think, for people. So yeah, that's really, yeah, the balance. I try and strike.
Jennifer Ramsey: That's amazing. That's really smart. And I, I love your answer.
Aneka Jiwaji: I have to hold myself back sometimes there are times where I'm like, oh.
Aneka Jiwaji: Cool. Like we should definitely write a post about, you know, men lawyers yelling at people in chambers. 'cause that's happened to me on three occasions this year. Mm-hmm. But I choose not to write in that way.
Jennifer Ramsey: It's a choice. Yep.
Megan Senese: What is the end goal is a helpful frame. So what's one of the ways that you are able to [00:20:00] maintain your wellbeing or your sense of humor when you're getting yelled at in court?
Megan Senese: When people are yelling at you in your chambers, when they're pissed about your, your LinkedIn content. What, how do you, how do you deal with that? How do you handle that?
Aneka Jiwaji: This sounds bad, but I'm gonna say it this way. I just don't care as much as I used to. Mm-hmm. Like, I just don't, you know, like I used to care so much.
Aneka Jiwaji: And, and that would impact your health, your mental wellbeing, all of those things. 'cause you were so concerned about, you know, everybody and what everybody thought about you. I, I. Of course other people are still a consideration. But at the end of the day, like I'm always like, do I feel okay about the way that I'm putting myself out there in this world?
Aneka Jiwaji: Do I feel okay about it? Not about if someone else feels okay about it or if this person feels, do I feel okay about it? And, and that's sort of how I like balance my, like my mental health and my wellbeing. Just not, not worrying so much about like. Because you're not gonna be, you know, what's that? There's, there's this quoted Harry Potter that I always think about.
Aneka Jiwaji: I think Double Door says something [00:21:00] like, um, if you're waiting for universal popularity, like you're gonna be waiting a long time. Right? I always think about that. So I'm not looking for universal popularity, and that makes me. Feel a lot. It, it makes it a lot easier to manage like my wellbeing and my mental health.
Aneka Jiwaji: 'cause I'm not spending time like ruminating about, you know, how everybody else feels about, about anything. So yeah, there's that. I mean, I, I, I'm generally a happy person. I'm not gonna lie. I get stressed out. Like, this job is so stressful. Like the, the kind of, the kind of work I do, it's, it's very fast moving.
Aneka Jiwaji: It changes a lot. Um. Very complicated. Um, so that can be stressful. But, um, I think two things, like if you have colleagues, so some of the junior lawyers I work with are, are, are such a good support system for me. Like they always say, oh, well you're a great support system for us, which is like wonderful to hear.
Aneka Jiwaji: But I feel that they support me in so many ways because when we're working on something together and we're having. Fun doing it. [00:22:00] Like even the stress of it kind of like goes away a little bit. Um, so yeah, so like, you know, just like trying to keep like a positive outlook around that. I'm always like the one who's like.
Aneka Jiwaji: You know, I'm laughing about something or making a joke about something, or that's just kind of how I get through it. Like maybe through humor. I'm just like, you wouldn't believe my husband's always like, what happened to him? I'm like, you wouldn't believe what happened, like blah, blah, blah, and this person, you, you know, like that's just kind of how I've always trying to kind of keep it, keep it light and keep that humor.
Aneka Jiwaji: But yeah, it does get stressful. Um, you know, I, I've had people say to me like, oh, you know, you talk about like work-life balance. So you might must have it like all figured out and it's. It's an ever changing, you know? Yeah. You know, like it's, it's daily, it's weekly, it's monthly. Like, just checking in with yourself.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like, you know, what do I have on my plate? What can I say no to? What should I say yes to? 'cause I wanna do it. And what is realistic? Like, I'm a very unrealistic person when it comes to what I can accomplish in like a day or in a week. I'll be like, [00:23:00] oh, I'm gonna do all of these. Things. And then, you know, of course the, there's only so many hours in a day and I've learned that the hard way, right?
Aneka Jiwaji: Like I've, I've gone through that in my career of being like, I'm gonna do it, everything. And then you're not sleeping, you're not eating. And, um, that's like no way to live.
Megan Senese: There was this very senior partner when I was pretty junior in my career, who said, there is no such thing as work-life balance.
Megan Senese: Something will always be unbalanced. And I remember being really pissed about this when she said this, particularly because it was like a. I don't know, international Women's Day lawyer lunch. It was like for women. Right. And I remember thinking like, that's the worst advice I could ever hear. But actually now I, I believe that what she meant, or, or I have different attitude towards it 'cause.
Megan Senese: It's never gonna be perfectly even. There's going to be, sometimes that work takes over. There's sometimes that life takes over or your family takes over, or your health or it's never perfect, like [00:24:00] perfectly balanced all the time is that's unrealistic. And she was right.
Aneka Jiwaji: Totally agree with that. I think for me, couple things.
Aneka Jiwaji: So there's practical things you can do as a lawyer to, to balance your life. One of those is being someone who understands what a, what a doable billable target is every year. Like that's, I, I am just aware of what I am able to bill in a year. I'm not going to be joining firms that have a target. For everybody of like 2000 hours like this.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like, don't hire me because I have a child, I have a life, I have, um, you know, my, my dad passed in April, but my mom's getting, you know, up there. So I have, you know, elder care obligations. That's a cultural piece as well. So like, you know, people say, well, you know, how do you balance things? It's like. You have to be realistic with yourself.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like, could I go and work a big law job? Yeah. Like I have the work ethic to do that. I've done big law before, but that would mean that I would spend no time with my family and in the way that I wanna spend time with my family. I'm not [00:25:00] knocking anyone who works in big law. I've got, I've got friends who work in big law who, you know, I think they do an amazing job trying to balance like their family life and their home life.
Aneka Jiwaji: I just know myself personally and with all of my projects on the go, I have to be realistic with myself, like. I can work at the kind of firm that is, you know, still v like a lot, like really, really good work, really complex. That's one of the reasons I'm in a boutique space. Right. But has, you know, a realistic idea of what, you know, lawyers can accomplish in a year.
Aneka Jiwaji: Um, so that's, I think that's something like I sent, I set a maximum billable target for myself every year. And, and I track my, my, my, my billables every single day on an Excel spreadsheet. And if I feel that I'm getting like too high up there and my numbers are gonna be too high, I take a holiday.
Jennifer Ramsey: Awesome.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like, that's how I operate my life, because I'm like, no, I don't wanna set a precedent that I'm gonna come in and do this much time, number one and number two, like I just know if I'm looking at this chart and like, you know, it's like. Three quarters of the way through the year, and I'm close to hitting my [00:26:00] max billable target for myself.
Aneka Jiwaji: Like I've, I'm doing something wrong in, in, in my view. So that's like just a practical thing. 'cause I've done that before. I've done, you know, the 2000 hour years and I was a shell of a person. I don't want to do that again. And it's like, I think it's like a badge of honor in this industry. Like, oh, I did, you know, 2000 plus hours.
Aneka Jiwaji: And it's like, okay. But like, what else did you do with your life this year? Like, did you go on a vacation? Did you spend time with your, your kids? And people get their backs up, right? They're like, yeah, I, I did. And it's like, yeah, but if you're doing like 2000 plus hours and you're billing, you know, honestly, you probably missed out on some other things.
Aneka Jiwaji: And that's okay if it's a year to year thing, like maybe one year you just had a really big case and that happened. But that shouldn't be a consistent thing. For lawyers, like you're just looking to burn out if you're gonna work like that. That's just my, my ethos. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about, about being a serious lawyer.
Aneka Jiwaji: I think, you know, back in the day it was like, if you're not living at the office and doing, you know, 2000 plus hours a year, like you're not serious.
Megan Senese: Yeah. You're not a real
Aneka Jiwaji: lawyer and I [00:27:00] think you're not real. And like, I think that is very much changing. Like, you know, I have a friend who is a named partner at a very good boutique in town who.
Aneka Jiwaji: Um, he's just taken an eight, an eight month sabbatical to spend time with his family. Um, and he just came back from that sabbatical. I had lunch with him and, um, you know, I thought that was so wonderful that he set that precedent and his other named partner did the same last year. So, and these guys are serious lawyers, you know what I mean?
Aneka Jiwaji: Like, like, like they're, they're serious as they come. So, um, you know, I think, I think that this like new generation of lawyers setting these presses saying, I've got a number of friends who say I don't work on Fridays. I'm at home with my kids on Fridays. I don't work on Fridays or you know, they keep their childcare on on Fridays and Friday, they're doing life stuff, appointments, whatever.
Aneka Jiwaji: Um, and, and again, people who I would consider serious lawyers are doing that. So I think that balance is, you know, obviously an ever evolving thing, an ever changing conversation. I agree. It's never gonna be a 50 50 balance. Like whenever I'm killing it at work, like my home life is suffering and when I'm killing [00:28:00] it in my home life, my work life is suffering.
Aneka Jiwaji: And it's just about like checking in with yourself and trying to. Bring that back every time.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. Sometimes the imbalance is me. Totally. It's not even the external, you know what I mean? It's so funny. We talk about BA and balance and unbalance and imbalance like, like I'm, you know, sometimes it's, yeah, sometimes it's, it's me.
Jennifer Ramsey: I'm not balance for whatever reason and I need to come back to equilibrium, but I think. I think something that you said I, you said it after I thought it about you, is your awareness of yourself and what you want and what you're willing to say yes to, a hell yes to, and what you're willing to say a hell no to.
Jennifer Ramsey: I love that because I think a lot of times it's. People just aren't even aware or will like know what they want and, and then, and then they're looking for other people to tell them like, well, how did you do that? How did you get there? It's like, look, you kind of have to dig deep here and be aware of what do you want as a lawyer or [00:29:00] as a mother or as a who fill in the label.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. Right. And it's awareness is like half the battle of anything in life, I think.
Aneka Jiwaji: Yeah. I think part of that is because. In law, like people are looking for other people to define their success.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah,
Aneka Jiwaji: that's what I think it is, right? So, and I, and I'm not above that, right? It's, you have to check yourself on that, right?
Aneka Jiwaji: It's like, oh, okay, well if you have your checklist of the things that you were gonna accomplish on the goals, and if you don't make those because so and so you know, didn't pick you or you didn't check those things off, then you're not successful. And I think that that's. Changing. I think the pandemic has helped a lot with that because a lot of, you know, women who were, who were, or, and men.
Aneka Jiwaji: But I've seen a lot of women who have started their own firms as of late because it's a lot easier to start your own firm, especially with remote work and AI and uh, you know, software and all of the things that you can do these days. Um, so people are defining a new type of success, right? That's not this.
Aneka Jiwaji: Same as what, what everybody said it [00:30:00] had to look like. And I think that comes back to the awareness piece. Like you have to be aware of like, is that actually success to you? Yeah. Are you gonna be happy? Right. If, if you do all of those things and, and I've learned mostly the most thing, the thing that makes me happiest is doing things my, the beat of my own drum.
Megan Senese: So we're, we're coming up on, on our time and actually I thought we could close out, it's actually Jen's favorite question. So what is your one, what's your favorite piece of advice that you've ever received? That's your favorite question, Jen.
Aneka Jiwaji: Well, I've got a lot of really fun pieces of advice, but one thing I always kind of come back to is reputation is different than character.
Megan Senese: Ooh.
Aneka Jiwaji: Yeah. Boom. I think that's a, yeah. Said that to me once. Reputation is different than character. Yeah. Because reputation is so, and it's because, and I find this to be a really interesting piece of advice. 'cause people will always tell you in law, like your reputation is everything. Like one wrong move can ruin your reputation.
Aneka Jiwaji: And I always come back to like. Reputation is something that other people have a say in building around [00:31:00] you. So like people get to say, oh, you know, like, I worked with Aneka. Like she's, she's not that good. Or, you know, I worked with Aneka and she's a problem. Or like, whatever people wanna say, she's, when I, when I say people I, or she's great.
Aneka Jiwaji: I'm just talking about like the, the. There's, there's definitely like an older stock of lawyer in town that doesn't love that. Like younger people have a voice that they're doing something different. Like it's not their jam. They liked the way that it used to be where they held the keys to the kingdom and you know, we all just like hope they would pick us one day.
Aneka Jiwaji: So there, that old stock of lawyer will, will go around and try to quote, ruin your reputation because they're intimidated by what you're doing. So I always keep that separate from my character, like what is my character? So I come back to that piece of advice, my character. For people who know me, I think you'll universally hear like, I will always help.
Aneka Jiwaji: I'm really hardworking. I really love what I do, um, and that I'm reliable. Um, you know, so I think those are the things when I come back to like, am I living by my values? [00:32:00] It's what's building my character, not my reputation, because I don't have control about what other people say about me, right? None of us do.
Jennifer Ramsey: I love that so much, and I have to tell, I have to tell you, um, there's a Harvard Business Review quote and it's, it's similar to this and I, I wanna, I think intentionality is important to you.
Aneka Jiwaji: Yes.
Jennifer Ramsey: Right. Aneka. And I think that, I think that reputation and character, I think intention is like a major.
Jennifer Ramsey: Thread line. It's like reputation. Everyone has a reputation.
Aneka Jiwaji: Exactly.
Jennifer Ramsey: But character is much more intentional.
Aneka Jiwaji: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Ramsey: Because, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit of what Harvard Business Review said, but it's, you know, character is about how we want people to see us. Reputation is more about credibility, like you said, what people think about us, but our character is about visibility and the values that we outwardly present 100%.
Jennifer Ramsey: I just think that I love, I love that reputation is different than character.
Aneka Jiwaji: One you [00:33:00] have control over and the other one you don't.
Jennifer Ramsey: Right. And, and there's, if you live intentionally, like it's kind of, this is such a good full circle conversation, living intentionally. It's like whatever. Let them out there, think whatever the hell they're going to.
Jennifer Ramsey: I know that I'm living with intention. I'm doing what I wanna do. I have self-awareness, basically ref, you know, paraphrasing what we just talked about for the last 45 minutes. It's just, it's a beautiful way to be.
Aneka Jiwaji: And you'll attract, you'll attract that kind of person, right? Because if you, and if you keep leading with, you know, your character, um, and you do that consistently, even like those people who try to sow seeds of doubt about you, it's really hard to do when you keep showing up in a certain way, right?
Aneka Jiwaji: So that's the piece that you control can control, and that's the only piece you have control over. So I always continue to try and do that rather than, you know, worry about like, what's my reputation, because like. I, you know, I don't know. And what's, what's that other piece like? You have no business knowing.
Aneka Jiwaji: Yeah. What other people, you know, think about you. I always [00:34:00] try to remember that my legal assistant says that to me all the time. Like, she's such a gem. And she, she always, well, Aneka, you know, we got no business knowing what, knowing what other people think about us. And I'm like, you know what? You're right.
Aneka Jiwaji: That's the way, that's the way to list. I think
Jennifer Ramsey: that my beloved hairdresser, Luigi, who honestly I. He's one of the smartest people on the planet. And that quote that you just said, I, I'm not sure who said it, if it was like Betty, I have to go back and look Betty Ford. But it's like, darling, what you think about me is none of my business.
Megan Senese: Yes.
Jennifer Ramsey: And I, it's just like, you know, the hair toss. The hair flip.
Megan Senese: I love that. Yeah. I love that so much. Thank you for giving us so much of your time for being on.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yes, thank you.
Aneka Jiwaji: No, thanks for having me. I just, I, I, I, you know, when Megan and I met, I just knew I had met like a, a kindred soul. Like we were immediately so connected and then meeting you today, Jennifer.
Aneka Jiwaji: It's just been, it's just been so much fun. So, yeah. No, thanks for having me. It's just, I, I've had such a good time.
Jennifer Ramsey: We're excited. We love, and you, I, I did wanna, I, I know I did wanna, [00:35:00] you're, you're a classically trained singer. Yes.
Aneka Jiwaji: I am, I am, yes, I am a classically trained singer. I don't, I don't do as much of it anymore, but I do sometimes just record just for fun.
Aneka Jiwaji: So if you ever wanna listen to any of my stuff, I am on SoundCloud, so I've got a couple, got a couple things on SoundCloud that I sometimes upload here or there. Just if I ever get into the recording studio, I'll, I'll do a little bit. I think the last one I did was like pre babies. Okay. So it's been a long time.
Aneka Jiwaji: But on SoundCloud, I'm there too. I'm singing.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. I always. It's part of our hu you know, the humanity of the, of this podcast is, is talking about what, what people do outside of the lawyer ring. Right.
Aneka Jiwaji: I have a jewelry company with my sister. I was wondering if this is, wonder if this is one of mine. So I do custom engagement rings.
Aneka Jiwaji: Our company's called Jaya. So if we're talking about. Things outside of the facet of law. I've done a lot of, um, um, so we started that, I think it's two years ago now, and we've done a lot of custom engagement and we do, um, lots of other like beautiful pieces that are coming [00:36:00] to market. Yeah, it's called Jaa, so it's JAIA and we are h at House of Jaya on Instagram.
Aneka Jiwaji: Um. Everything we've done so far has been custom commission, so we have like no following, we have no anything like we're building it, but if you wanna follow along with the journey of, of Jaya and what we're doing with that. We're at House of Jaya on Instagram and um, our website is gonna be launching in January, so, but yeah, like people, you know, people in law don't really ask.
Aneka Jiwaji: Ask about your ethos and your life outside of law. People are always, like, someone will say to me like once in a while, like, oh, that's beautiful. And I say, oh yeah. You know, I have a little jewelry company. I love to do design and do custom, you know, I do custom engagement, custom. I've done, I've done divorce rigs.
Aneka Jiwaji: I've got two divorce rigs I'm doing right now for, for friends who are like, I'm single. I drop the dead weight. I want a beautiful cocktail ring. So, yeah, like, we are, we're multifaceted people. We're we're humans, right? We enjoy different things and like, that's a good thing. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.
Jennifer Ramsey: It's amazing.
Megan Senese: I love it. [00:37:00] That's it for today. Join us next time on So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Can't get enough of us? Visit us at www.stage.guide.