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In the inaugural episode of The Curious Jew Podcast, host Rabbi David Silverstein sits down with Rav Avishai Lax of Machon Har Bracha to explore the grand enterprise of Rav Eliezer Melamed’s Peninei Halakha and its revolutionary impact on contemporary Jewish law.
The conversation pulls back the curtain on the Machon's intensive collaborative workflow, revealing how a specialized team of scholars refines dozens of drafts to create an accessible code that intentionally weaves together foundational principles, conceptual Jewish thought, and modern reality. Together, they dive into the core pillars of Rav Melamed’s civilizational vision for Torat Eretz Yisrael. This includes rethinking the physics of modern kashrut, establishing a robust national policy for conversion (giyur), framing marital intimacy through a holistic and joyful lens, and analyzing a society-building framework that shifts the focus from individual questions to the national needs of the entire State of Israel. Finally, Rav Lax reveals the "hidden precision" of the series—exploring how complex layers of underlying halakhic authority are meticulously woven directly into the text's deceptively simple prose.
About the Guest
Rav Avishai Lax studied at Yeshivat Beit El and served as a community rabbi and educator in Toronto before returning to Israel. He currently lives in Har Bracha, where he works directly alongside his father-in-law, Rav Melamed, at Machon Har Bracha.
Creators and Guests
Host
Rav David Silverstein
Rabbi David Silverstein is the Sgan (Assistant) Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshivat Orayta in Jerusalem, and previously served as the Director of the Overseas Program at Yeshivat Hesder, Petach Tikva. Originally from New Jersey, Rabbi Silverstein lives with his wife and four children in Modiin, Israel.
What is The Curious Jew?
Judaism is a civilization built on big ideas—about God, morality, community, purpose, and what it means to live a meaningful life. But in a rapidly changing world, how do these timeless concepts speak to our modern reality?
The Curious Jew is a forum for thoughtful conversation, spirited debate, and intellectual exploration of Judaism’s most enduring questions and contemporary challenges. Through engaging discussions with leading rabbis, scholars, authors, and communal figures, we go beyond the surface to examine the core ideas shaping the Jewish future.
Hosted by Rabbi David Silverstein and produced by Yeshivat Orayta, our goal is not simply to provide easy answers, but to cultivate curiosity, challenge assumptions, and inspire a more thoughtful, self-aware, and committed Judaism for the twenty-first century.
Whether you're deeply learned in Torah text or just beginning your intellectual journey, The Curious Jew invites you to join the conversation. New episodes drop bi-weekly.
Intro music by Mykola Odnoroh.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: I think the idea
of Rav Eliezer Melamed is that Halakha
should make sense, and we don't keep
Halakha only because it's a mesorah.
We know that Halakha should make
sense in our life, and we work
hard to make sense out of Halakha.
Rabbi David Silverstein:
Judaism begins with questions.
Welcome to The Curious Jew, a podcast
by Yeshivat Orayta, where we challenge
assumptions, explore big ideas, and
think about what it means to live a
Jewish life in the twenty-first century.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the
first episode of Yeshivat Orayta's
new podcast, The Curious Jew.
I'm David Silverstein, and today I
have the honor of welcoming to the
podcast Rav Avishai Lax from Yeshivat
Har Bracha, from the community
Har Bracha Machon Har Bracha.
So first of all, Rav Avishai, thank
you so much for coming on the podcast.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: Sure, my pleasure
Rabbi David Silverstein: One of the
things we were thinking about when
trying to conceptualize this new podcast
called Curious Jew, we realized that
there's a lot of exciting things that
are going on in Israel, and oftentimes
the English-speaking community isn't
always aware of all the creative,
intellectual, and spiritual energy
going on in the religious Zionist
community and more broadly in Israel.
I was actually listening to a podcast
not that long ago where Michael Eisenberg
who is a very interesting thinker
and businessman he was on a podcast
where he made a pretty provocative
claim, where he was talking about the
centrality of Jewish life in Israel
versus Jewish life in the diaspora.
And he said that basically since Rav
Moshe Feinstein and Rav Soloveitchik,
and I guess also the Baba Sarebi, I
guess Rav Hutner also, that genre of
great Torah personalities from the US.
So he said there really hasn't
been anything produced in the US
in terms of literature that's gonna
be learned in a hundred years.
And then the person who's the host
of the podcast said to him what's an
example of an exciting work, being
written currently in Israel that'll
be studied in a hundred years?
What's a significant work a
religious Zionist thought that
you know isn't coming out of the
US but is coming out of Israel?"
And the book that he mentioned was
Pirkei Halacha by Rav Eliezer Melamed.
So I thought this would be a great
opportunity to talk a little bit about
this enterprise called Pirkei Halacha,
about Rav Eliezer Melamed and to talk not
only about the specifics of, the what's
the content of the work, but more broadly,
what is the work trying to accomplish?
How is it unique?
I always tell my students that it's
an amazing thing to be alive at a
time in history where you feel like
you're witnessing history, and,
I often wonder sometimes how many
times throughout history do people
realize that they're living history?
And I feel Pirkei Halacha
is an example of this.
It's like we're witnessing the publication
of a series that is gonna define,
at least for the religious Zionist
community, Halacha into the future.
And it's just amazing to be part
of this and to see it happening and
to watch it in all its intricacies.
Before we talk a little about Pirkei
Halacha, just maybe describe a
little bit about your background.
Where are you from?
I know currently you live in Har Bracha.
You work for Machon Har Bracha.
Just tell us a little bit
about your personal background.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: Okay, great.
So I was bornâ¦
I grew up in Shoham, which is a small
community, small town close to the
airport, to Natbag, Naval Tufa Ben Gurion.
I went to Yeshivat Tichonit,
yeshiva, like a normal Dati Leumi
high school, Yeshivat Nechalim.
Then I moved to Yeshivat Be'el.
I did my military service,
which was not combat.
Then I came back to yeshiva.
I did the main Mivhane Rabanut Shabbat,
Nida, Yissur ve'Ater, which are the
laws of cautious, the laws of Shabbos
and and the laws of of purity or Nida.
Then after doing that or while
doing the, those those exams, I did
also my my bachelor in education.
And after completing the bachelor
and the first year of of teaching, I
taught like a f- third of my time in
a high school in Israel, in Be'el.
We went on Shlichut, my family and I.
I was already married.
I had four kids.
And we went to Toronto for three years.
Two of them were years of war, meaning
I came back just this past summer.
And that's shortly my biography.
Since we came back, I moved to Har Bracha,
which is where my wife lived and grew up.
I think it's good to mention that
my wife is daughter of Rav Melamed.
I'm a son-in-law of him.
And this is how I found myself here.
Now I work for Gemach On.
I work with the Rav, as we will
explain more in depth soon.
But this is shortly my biography
Rabbi David Silverstein: Okay, amazing.
So maybe you could, if you could just
describe for a few minutes the whole sort
of enterprise of P'nigche Halacha, right?
Who is Rav Melamed?
How did it begin?
And how does it function currently?
Like, how has it evolved?
I remember when I first got my first
volume, I think I made aliyah in 2008, and
I remember at the time people were talking
about this new book called P'nigche
Halacha, and I think it was the Likutim.
I think it was like, if I remember
correctly, it was about like
kippah, tzitzit stuff like that.
It was the kind of like the
softer areas of Halacha discourse.
It wasn't about Hilchot Nidah or
Hilchot Kashrut or Hilchot Shabbat.
But there was a sense that the book
was interesting, it was a different
type of genre, and I didn't really know
honestly much about Rav Melamed at all.
I had never heard about him.
So maybe just if you could describe a
little bit about who is Rav Melamed,
where does he come from, and how did the
whole process of P'nigche Halacha evolve
from the beginning to where it is today?
Rabbi Avishai Lax: So there
are three questions here.
I think I'll start with Rav Melamed's
biography as he asked, and then
I'll tell you the first steps
of Pninat Halacha as I see it.
Just I think it's good to mention
that everything I'm gonna say
is how I see things that I know.
But maybe Rav Melamed holds different.
Maybe he thinks different,
he sees things different.
And I'm not-- the blame is on me, okay?
So this is how
Rabbi David Silverstein: No problem
Rabbi Avishai Lax: So Rav
Melamed was born at 1961.
He's, he was son of a rabbi,
Rav Zalman Melamed, which is
my Rosh Yeshiva in Beit El.
Back then Rav Zalman Melamed, he was a
rabbi at the Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav, which
is the yeshiva of Rav Kook, of course.
Rav Melamed was born into a rabbinic
family, and actually even his name
was decided by Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook.
There is a fascinating story.
When he was born Rabannit Shulamit, she
was at the hospital and Rav Tzvi Yehuda
Cohen Kook was also at the hospital.
He had a surgery or something.
So Rav Zalman came to his room to
tell him that he had a son, and then
Rav Tzvi just woke up and he had
a dream and he told Rav Zalman, "I
dreamt that somebody says Eliezer Ba.
Eliezer is coming."
And I was asking, "Maybe you
wanna call the baby Eliezer."
Rav Tzvi asks Rav Zalman, "Did
you think of a name already?"
And he said, "I have no name."
Of course, he j- he was just born.
I have eight days to think about it.
But Rav Tzvi says, "Maybe you should call
him Eliezer," and he urged him a couple of
times, and then they decided to call him
Eliezer based on this dream of Rav Tzvi.
Rav Tzvi thought he felt like
that somebody's coming and his
name is Eliezer, and it's notâ¦
it's nobody else but this baby.
So that's the story.
Rav Eliezer Melamed, he went to
Yeshivat HaTzirim which is the
high school of Merkaz HaRav.
They didn't have secular
studies back then.
When he was 16, he moved
to Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav.
He was there for about six years.
After getting married, he moved to Beit
El Yeshivat Beit El, and a few years
after, he became the rabbi of a very
small community, about 20 families I
believe in Har Bracha, which is close to
Nablus while Beit El is more closer to
Yerushalayim close to close to Ramallah.
So actually the first steps of P'ninat
Halacha as I know, there were-- there
used to be a radio channel, HaRutz Sheva.
Back then there was a boat at the
sea and they broadcast from there.
So Rav Eliezer Melamed, he had
this this 15 minutes show, I
don't know, something like this
of P'ninat Halacha where he wasâ¦
where he had to say things that are
very clear and very short, and this
is how he came up with the book.
He collected all of those p'ninot,
those 15 minutes shows of P'ninat
Halacha and he put them in I think
three or four volumes, which is thoseâ¦
there is the colorful P'ninat
Halacha which is about 30 years ago.
So it was four volumes.
There is no one topic for each
book, so it's, it was all mixed.
Anything that is interesting,
very short, very bright.
A few years after, I think he came
up with K'minat Lecha Shabbat.
He saw that people like his books
and like the way he writes, so he
said, "Okay, I'm gonna put more
time into it and work on the books."
Not as a tri- Like a written
show, but as something more
complicated, as we will elaborate
Rabbi David Silverstein: Interesting.
In terms of his role as he starts to
write these books, one of the things
I always think about and I'm always
intrigued by is how Poskim become Poskim.
Like what Turner, for example, or Moshe
Feinstein into Moshe Feinstein, right?
So one of the things I researched myself
many years ago, and I was very intrigued
by Rabbi Melamed as a personality, is he
actually ha- as far as I could tell, he
actually hadn't published a lot before
he started writing these columns, right?
If you look, for example, like on Rambi
or Rambish or Asif or different places
for Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, y- you don't
find lots and lots of Torah articles
on different areas of Jewish thought.
And it, it's fascinating because,
not every great publishes a lot.
But, one of the, I think, really
interesting elements of Rabbi Melamed
is his ability to write things in a
way that's very accessible, right?
But it wasn't like he was writing
and writing and writing, and
all of a sudden he just started
writing, a different type of genre.
It's almost like his first entry point
into the world of like formal writing is
this type of genre that he's working on.
And then when, when he starts to, publish
Pnei Halakha, it's very much Sheveile
Chol Nefesh in the sense that it's easy
to understand, it's accessible, and it's
not something which, is only limited
to a small group of scholars, but it's
a book that, anybody could access.
But I think one of the most interesting
things as Pnei Halakha evolves, and I know
that you're involved in this right now,
is the idea of having a machon, right?
Of having like a machon, which basically
brings together different that work
together to clarify the sugyot.
And then in tandem with Rabbi Melamed,
you guys are working out different
sort of Halakha concepts, and then he
ultimately writes the final nisua, the
final formulation for Pnei Halakha.
So maybe you could just describe for a few
minutes about in its current iteration,
now that it's like a big operation, you--
there's probably like 15 books at least
published in the set of Pnei Halakha.
So how many people are there in
the machon, and how does it work?
If it originally was Rabbi Melamed writing
short columns for Aruch Sheva by himself,
and then publishing it and, picking up
the people who are responding nicely to
it, and then he wants to publish a book.
Now it's a real publishing enterprise.
So let's say, for example, you guys
are looking at working on a new topic.
I know you just published a
new volume about the . I think
it's like a republication of
some of the earlier works.
W- what's the process of
public-- of pub- of publishing?
Do you guys-- does every person in the
machon have a different area of specialty?
Do you then clarify
that with Rabbi Melamed?
Who a- does Rabbi
Melamed write every word?
Just the whole process I
think is really unique here.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: Sure.
So first of all, I think we have
currently 23 volumes, much more than 15.
In terms of how the Machon works first
of all, you need to know that, as you
mentioned earlier, Rav Melamed, he
used to work alone for many years.
At some point, he had a few scholars
around him Rabbaim at the yeshiva
that helped him in certain sugyot.
And at some point, Rav Mao Kayyam which
is the head of the Machon, he left
his work at the-- as a Rabbi in the
yeshiva and dedicated his time only
to do what he does with Rav Melamed.
But yet there was an era when
Rav Melamed worked alone on many
parts of a book, for example.
But certain sugyot he asked Rav Mao or
other Rabbaim, "I want you to go deep
into this, spend more time, explore
more broadly, and then come back to me."
The way we work now, and I think
it's for the three or four last
volumes the way it works is all the
books, all-- the entire book goes the
entire book goes through the Machon.
And I'll explain the process.
Rav Melamed, he writes a chapter.
Okay?
And then he sends us a draft.
He send the draft to Rav Mao
first, and Rav Mao divides
the draft to different sugyot.
For example, you have a
chapter about tzitzit.
So tzitzit has in, in-- with-within this
chapter, there can have 15 or 20 sugyot.
So he divides the chapter to sugyot.
And then he's-- he gives it to us.
We're about 10 people, the Machon.
It's a crew of 10, nine,
nine to 10 scholars.
And we-- each of us get a sugya.
And we have the time to go deeply,
to explore broadly, to see all
the opinions, everyone who ever
spoke about it, and we collect
every-everything, we summarize everything.
And this we give our document back
to either Rav Mao or to Rav Melamed.
And then the way that the second stage
Is that Rav Melamed sits either with
the, with Rav or with one of us about the
sugiah that we dealt with, and we discuss.
We discuss openly, and based on that,
Rav Melamed rewrites what his draft.
So he sits on the computer.
We sit together in the room.
We discuss we clarify things.
He-- Many times he give, he gives
me more more chor- more, more things
to do, more questions that, things
that I need to explore, and based
on that, he rewrites the draft.
And then there is a
stage of back and forth.
He sends me an email with his corrections.
If I have comments, I comment
back, and we discuss about it.
And eventually after Rav Melamed, he
als- he goes through the chapter many
more times, about more than 20 times.
And then until it's very clear to
him and all the sources, everything
makes sense, and ev-everything is very
coherence, and then we know that we
finished this chapter, and we can move on.
Many times because we-- we're about
10 people different re- different
rabbis at the Machon, they work on
different chapters with the Rav, and
the Rav What's the word for this?
He throw all the balls.
How do you call it?
He juggles everything together.
Rav Mo helps him.
And this is how it basically works
Rabbi David Silverstein: Fascinating.
And in terms of the self-image
of the Machon and how, people
perceive what you're doing.
If you think about the history of
codification think about from the time
of the Mishnah until the Rambam, right?
So obviously there were other codes,
but if you think about from the Mishnah
until the Rambam the Rambam, he had
different levels to his greatness,
but one of his incredible sort of
accomplishments was the way in which
he structures the Mishneh Torah, right?
The content of the Mishneh Torah is very
much informed by the structure, right?
That, in yeshivas you spend a lot of time
not only thinking about, the words of the
Mishneh Torah, but even about where things
are placed in the Mishneh Torah, right?
That the placement actually
is a really big deal.
And if you fast-forward from the Rambam
until, let's say the Tur, and you have
this new model, like the Arba Turim, which
becomes the default way of conceptualizing
Halakha from the Tur onward.
Then you have the Shulchan Aruch, and
then you have, like, all different,
commentaries on the Shulchan Aruch,
whether it's the Magen Avraham or
the Mishnah Berurah who are all
working within that framework, right?
And then even if you take a book like
the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, so even there
it's based on a similar framework, right?
Whereas Pnei Halakha if you think about
it it's really not only content-wise
unique, but structurally unique, right?
It's like I've, I have children
and I wonder in general with the
dati leumi world, like, how many
dati leumi kids are even learning
the Mishnah Berurah anymore, right?
Because it's like now that you have
Pnei Halakha, like, why would you
learn the Mishnah Berurah, right?
And I understand where they're coming
from because there's something about
the way it's structured, Pnei Halakha,
that it really is the content is really
incredible, but beyond the content,
the sort of presentation is amazing.
So in terms of how you guys think
about the project do you think
about this in a reflective way?
That okay, it's not only that we're
codifying and we're posking Halakha
questions and we're dealing with,
questions that have been dealt with
from the time of the Mishnah onward,
but there's something about the Pnei
Halakha set that sort of presents
Halakha in a systematized, in an
organized way, and something about
the organization is very much sort
of part of the vision of the Machon?
Rabbi Avishai Lax: So first of
all, I- it's an evolving project,
as you mentioned at the beginning.
So in terms of the order of volumes,
we don't have an order yet 'cause we're
still-- Rav still publishes many, m-
more and more volumes, and as long as
we- we're not done, we can't we can't
put them in, in, in order, right?
Like the first one, second one, et cetera.
But you're right that i- in everyâ¦
Th- thâ¦
You're-- First of all, you're right
that it's different than Shulchan
Aruch and Rambam, but I think the
Rambam is the precedence that you can
come up with a new structure, right?
We had the Gemara until the Rambam,
and then Rambam says-- said, I have
a new idea how to organize things."
And since then, people-- rabbis
did different structures.
Tur is one of them, but as you mentioned,
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch is quite different.
Chayei Adam.
You can find books that goes
only through one topic such
as Shmirat Shabbat Hilchata.
So Rav Benhamou, he goes--
he has the same concept.
His idea is to dedicate
a book for a topic.
And many times one book
is enough for one topic.
Sometimes you need two volumes.
For example, Kashrut, we
have two volumes of it.
Emunot ve-Deot, we have two volumes.
But the main idea is that when
Rav Benhamou learns and writes, he
wanna learn the the topic entirely.
Wanna see everything, lear- learn it as
a whole and not one siman katan, one,
one siman here, one seif katan there.
He wanna learn everything very close,
like in a close t- times, i- in a times--
time-- in a very close timeframe so
he can see everything and understand
how things things affect others and
this is how he divides the book.
Even the recent book, Cheftzei
Kodesh, goes mainly a lot about,
about Cheftzei Tashmishei Kedusha,
which is Sefer Torah, mezuzah.
Tzitzit is an adaption but i- is
something a little bit different.
But mainly we go through the things
that has kedusha, and when you do
that, you have the the advantage
of knowing the rest of the sugyot.
You have them in the front of
your head, and you can understand
how they affect one each other.
When we go to each chapter
in Pnei Halakha, Rav Benhamou
thinks of the structure of it.
He tries to start every chapter and
even every clause with the principle
and then go and go to the details of it.
And when you learn it this way,
it's very easy, first of all to hold
the details 'cause you see that the
details are part of a bigger picture.
You see the principle of it.
But also this is like
the vision of Rav Kook.
We need to understand how every
detail in Halakha is part of a
bigger value and bigger thing.
And when you do this, it's
also easy to remember.
Rabbi David Silverstein: So this
is actually a perfect segue.
Rav Kook, as you alluded to, has this line
in the essay where he talks about, the
idea of being able-- One of the unique
features of Moshe Rabbeinu is that in
the Torah you have basically an interplay
between the klal and the prat, right?
That the deta- the details aren't
just arbitrary details, but
they're part of a bigger story.
And like throughout history, from the
Nevi'im to the Chaza- to the Chazal,
there's like a dialectic about, we're
gonna focus on one over the other.
And he says obviously, that the
ideal is to go back to the model
of Moshe, where you basically
integrate the klal and the prat.
I wanna sort of transition to
talk for a few seconds about this
question of Torat Eretz Yisrael.
So my personal training in the world of
Yeshiva is very much America-centric.
Right?
So in other words, very America-centric.
And one of the things I was very
intrigued by when I came to Israel--
When I first came to Israel, I taught
in a Hesder Yeshiva in Petah Tikva.
Now it's currently in Tel Aviv.
And one of the Roshei Yeshiva, Rav
Yuval Sherlo, had a book called, The
Torat Eretz Yisrael, The Or Mishnat
HaRav Kook or something like that.
And when I came to Yeshiva, they gave
me all of Sherlo's books as a gift.
So I said-- So I started reading and
going through the different books, and
it was really fascinating for me 'cause
honestly, I never heard of a con-- I
grew up in a religious Zionist space.
It wasn't like I was learning
in in, in, the Mir Yeshiva in
Brooklyn or something like that.
But even like in YU, there, there wasn't
this language of Torat Eretz Yisrael.
That just was not part
of the conversation.
And honestly, when I first heard about
it, it was like a little disorienting.
I was like: "What are you talking about?
What does it mean to say that
there's like a Torah of the Galut
versus a Torah of Eretz Yisrael?
There's only one Torah.
There's Torah Shebe'al Peh and that's it.
There's no third Torah
called, Torat Eretz Yisrael."
And then I started learning more
about this and researching this and
realizing that it's actually much
more complicated, it's more nuanced.
I'm curious if you feel that the
project of Pirkei Avot is a project
that's very much unique to the
experience of people living in Israel.
It's not to say that you can't use the
book if you live outside of Israel.
It's been translated in five languages.
It's just unbelievable
the breadth of the work.
It's in English, I think
it's in Spanish, French.
It's everywhere.
But just in terms of the feel of
it, what it's trying to accomplish,
you alluded to Rav Kook before.
Is there a sense that Pirkei Avot
is a religious Zionist project?
It doesn't mean that every single,
psika, has to be qualitatively different.
It doesn't mean that a guy living
in Bnei Brak can't open up a
Hilchot Tzitxit and learn it.
But just in general, the general
sort of thrust of the project.
Is it motivated by a sense
of Torat Eretz Yisrael?
Rabbi Avishai Lax: So first of all,
I don't have a bright definition
what Torah Eretz Yisrael is
comparing to Torah Chutz La'aretz.
For sure, the meaning of it is not
about-- it's not only about the location.
It's not like when I went to Canada,
I switched from Torah Eretz Yisrael to
Torah Chutz La'aretz, and then n-now
I'm back with Torah Eretz Yisrael.
It's more about how you see things,
and I don't have a bright definition.
What I do, can, I can add
and say is that when we learn
Torah, we wanna do a few things.
First of all, we see not
only the individual but--
and not only the community.
We see the entire nation, right?
The entire the entire state of Israel.
And the questions that we ask and things
that we explore are not only things
that matter to the individual/community,
but also things that, that, that are
important to to the state of Israel.
For-- Just for an
example Shemitah VeYovel.
When we discuss about the laws
of Shemitah in Israel, of course,
first of all, it's a miz-- it's a
mitzvah that apply only in Israel.
But when you talk about the details
of it, there is a very big question.
What do we prefer?
Do we prefer to sell the land temporarily,
and by that we can allow certain melachot
to work the fields in a certain way?
This is one option.
And the other option is to hand
all the fields to the Beis Din,
what we call Otzar Beis Din.
And each system has pros and cons.
So when Rav Ovadia explores this topic,
-- he promotes the idea of Heiter Mechira.
And some of the reasons are
because financially, for the
government, it's much cheaper.
And it's not only for the individual
the guy who, who works at the field,
but also for the entire state of Israel.
We're not there yet.
It's gonna cost a lot, billions to to
avoid having agriculture for a year.
And this is why he prefers
the idea of Heiter Mechira.
So ju-- This is just an example how we
see things not only through the lens
of the individual, but also through
the lens of the entire state of Israel.
When you talk about Torah Eretz Yisrael,
I think it's also good to mention
people talks a lot about the idea
of connecting Halakha to Machshava.
The idea is the thoughtful the thoughtful
parts of Judaism to the Halakhic parts.
And what I say I think this is part of the
Torah Eretz Yisrael because the way we,
we-- Our assumption is that Torah should
affect not only the way we act, the way
we behave, but also the way we think.
And when you take these ideas of Aggadah
and elaborate them and try to go deep,
not only in Halakha, but also in Aggadah,
you can give Halakha that, that affect
not only the way the person behave,
but also the way he thinks and his
values, and I think this is important
Rabbi David Silverstein: I actually think
that's just from the perspective of the
reader or the person learning the book.
I actually think that's one of
the most unique features, is the
integration of Jewish thought within
the context of a Halakha conversation.
Even in very technical Halakha, like if
you look, for example, in his, two-volume
work on Hilchot Niddah even there at
the beginning, like there, there's
a lot of discussion of broader ideas
beyond just like the Halakha detail.
And I think every work, every
book, every volume of Pnia
Halakha operates that way, right?
Where basically there's introductory
chapters that provide a larger theological
framing to what's going on, and only when
you have that theological framing does
the book then move right onward, right
to the next stage, which is obviously
the application of Halakha principles.
I wanna share with you an insight
that a friend of mine had.
I have a friend you may know him.
His name is Rabbi Eli Fisher.
I think he at one point did some
translating for Pnia Halakha.
And he said something about Rav
Melamud, which I always think about.
He described the project of Pnia Halakha
as a project of what he called-- I think
he called it civilizational Halakha.
Where basically he thought that Pnia
Halakha it's not just a standard code, but
it actually has like a vision for society.
And even though you're right, obviously
it's being published volume by volume,
so it's not there's a ten-year plan
and, they know exactly where it's going.
But there's a sense then in general,
if you look at different aspects of
Pnia Halakha, I think his reading of
it, and I think it's actually a really
sharp assessment, is that a lot of
what Pnia Halakha was trying to do is
to ri- provide almost like a Halakha
framework for an ideal Jewish society.
And that's why I think it
works so well in Israel.
And I'll give you an example of this.
One of them which, I'm sure most
people, even like most observant
Jews who learn Halakha probably
aren't even familiar with this idea.
Rav Melama has this one idea in Hilchot
Shabbat, which is basically that every Jew
on Shabbat should learn six hours every
Shabbos, and he's very committed to this.
In fact, he came to Modi'in one
time, and he was giving a shiur.
He could have spoken about anything,
and he chose to speak about this idea
of the six hours of learning on Shabbat.
And I was thinking about it, and I
remember that like many years ago, when
I lived in Modi'in, he actually came.
I think they had some type
of alumni Shabbat in Modi'in.
And he came, and he also spoke
about this six hours on Shabbat.
And I was really thinking about it, that
it's actually a really an interesting
way to think about Shabbos in general,
and specifically trying to quantify
what, Shabbos looks like beyond just
eating and a Shabbos nap, right?
That actually Shabbos is supposed
to be a day where it's basically
dedicated to Talmud Torah.
And the reason why I think this is,
that's so important, and again, this
is speculative, but I thought it's an
interesting way of thinking about it
is, if you're somebody who's advocating,
let's say, a kollel lifestyle for
many people, if you're advocating
people staying in yeshiva for 15 years
and never getting degrees or, never
going out and studying high-level
degrees like engineering or math or
physics, et cetera, so then okay then,
Shabbos is just like an ordinary day.
And, you feel "Okay, I get
my learning during the week."
But in Rav Melama's writings he
does encourage the promotion of
building society and academic
training, et cetera, et cetera.
So in that civilizational model Shabbat
isn't just a day, it's actually part of
a much bigger project where basically
you're probably not gonna have as
much time to learn if you're in a PhD
program in physics as you were if you
were in I don't know, in, in a kollel.
But you still have to learn.
But the idea then becomes-- But yeah,
but that even if you're in a h- PhD
program in physics and you're only able
to learn one hour a day, you should never
forget that the purpose of Shabbat is
for that student who's studying physics.
That in that civilizational model,
Shabbat is there to remind us that even
though we are allowed and should and
encouraged to engage in functional, and
productive behavior in the week, right?
Shabbat is there to be that time
where learning really is a central
piece of how we experience the world.
So I'm just curious, about this
whole idea of the six hours on
Shabbat, and I'm curious also
how it plays out in Har Bracha.
I've heard rumors that in Har Bracha
you have a 6:00 AM minyan, and then
everyone goes to it, and then there's
like a two-hour Seder before something.
So I'm curious also just, maybe this is
just mythology, but I'm curious about
where this came from, how does it play
out practically, and do you also think
that, this is true, that this is part
of a civilizational project of trying to
think about how Halakha should work for a
society, not only for an individual Jew?
Rabbi Avishai Lax: The idea of learning
six hours on Shabbos, and not only
on Shabbat, also on the holidays, the
idea comes from the understanding that
during the days of the week, we need
to work, and we have a mitzvah to work
and and prosper the land of Israel.
And we need to work hard, and we
need to accomplish and have the--
have degrees, PhD, whatever we
need to have a successful society.
And when you wanna have a successful
society during the six days of work,
you wanna l- you leave the Shabbos
and Yamim Tovim for learning Torah.
That's the idea, and it's a great example
for connecting Mashava and Halakha.
Because of Rav Ovadia's Mashava
approach regarding work work ethics
comparing to Limud Torah versus
Limud Torah, this is how it affects
the way he paskened for Shabbos.
For example, you gave an example of
learning six hours, but there is also
an example of avoiding toys and playing
during Shabbat time 'cause Shabbat
should be dedicated for learning Torah.
So he's-- he looks as a mashma on
that, but he's not actually a mashma.
He just sees the value of working
during the days of the week, and
therefore, you should spend Shabbat
for the spiritual part of your life.
So that's 100% true.
It's very interesting.
You're asking how is it-- you were
asking how does it work in Halakhah.
So in Halakhah, we have-- I
think the way we practice is
that we have lots of options.
Some people wake up early, some wake
up late, and you all throughout the
day, you have many options, shiurim.
And the shiurim are not so hard.
We learn together, we
discuss, there is food.
And by-- and having all this physical
requirements, the, for people, you just
need to come sit and learn, and this is
how people accomplish these six hours.
I just wanna add that many times people
who who have children, young children
especially, they don't have the time for
six hours, and that's okay 'cause it's
also a mitzvah to be mechanech your kids,
and you can also learn with your kids.
But for sure you'll-- you won't-- many
times you won't have these six hours.
But the idea is, yes, we work
for six days, and we not rest, we
work on Shabbat, but spiritually.
Rabbi David Silverstein: Fascinating.
I-I'll give you another example of
this that I think it expresses itself a
similar type of approach of, of thinking
about the integration of Halakha and
Machshava, and more broadly about, some
loose definition of Torah Eretz Yisrael.
I was talking to somebody
recently, american guy who was
trained in yeshiva in Israel.
He teaches a class in
Halakhah kashrut, okay?
If you have a knife and it's clean- so
normally when I was learning in YU, people
think about, , the knife has certain
power of, 'cause you press on it, it
can basically inject flavor into food.
Then there's this question of devar
charif, where you add another element
where the devar charif can actually,
help the knife absorb certain things.
I grew up thinking that if you had a, an
onion, and you cut it with a, a fleishig
knife, so all of a sudden the onion, at
least in the interim, takes on this new
status of a fleishig onion, even though
there's no meat in the onion, right?
But again, you put it in the fridge,
you put a little tag on it that says,
"Fleishig onion," and your kids know not
to make it for eggs in the morning, unless
they're having eggs with fleishigs, okay?
And he called me and he said, "You're
not gonna believe this, but , Rav Melamed
has this thing where he talks about how
basically, I may be oversimplifying here,
but the articulation is something like
this, the, and the materials revolution
has made us realize that certain things
don't absorb the way a kli charif does,
the way a Talmudic bowl would, right?
I know in Tumen there was a lot
of discussion about this, and
Professor Dror Fixler, I think, from
Bar-Ilan has done, M- Mele et Dumim.
He's a chemistry professor, so he's
done a chemical analysis of this.
And the implications are even
bigger than just the knife
and the devar charif, right?
Because then you have this question of
what happens, can you use dairy food
that was cooked in a Eino Ben Yomo pot,
hadn't been used for twenty-four hours,
can you then u- have put meat, mix that
dairy pasta, so to speak, with with meat?
And there's a lot of discussion about
this, now that we know basically
that through scientific experiments
that there really isn't that much
transfer of flavor with stainless
steel and different materials.
So what are the implications for Halakhah?
And again, there are different posts,
that take different sides of this debate.
I know that Rav Asher Weiss, for
example, thinks that this conversation
is basically not relevant, right?
That basically they're the rules
are the same, nothing changes.
And Rav Melamed actually he does
have a fairly doesn't advocate these
things l'chachila, but he certainly
does adopt a- a more nuanced view when
it comes to this question of flavor
transference, the question of not barnard.
Again if listeners aren't familiar
with details of not barnard, it's okay.
But basically the idea is that the
transference of flavor in these
materials is not as impactful and
therefore that has Halakhic implications.
Now, this may seem like a small Halakhic
detail but, as anybody who spent a
lot of time in Yeshiva knows, this
is this is like the meat and potatoes
of like the Slicha curriculum, right?
So If all of a sudden you can use a
fleishig knife and cut an onion with
that, and then all of a sudden assuming
that the knife is totally clean and,
use soap to clean it, you could then use
that that onion for a cheese sandwich.
That may seem like small details,
but actually it's a pretty big deal.
And I don't want to spend too much time
talking about that specific Sugya, but
I'm curious if you think that in general,
again, reflects his orientation, right?
About how we're gonna try to implement
Halakha in a way that speaks to the
experience, not only for like Yeshiva
students who are very much involved
in the theoretical, but people,
again, living in a space trying to
functionally make Halakha make sense.
And I'm curious again,
like how you conceptualize.
I'll just, again, I apologize for the
monologue, but I'll, I tell you from my
experience, you spent time in, in Canada.
I feel like part of what makes the
Torah galut is that it's so heavily
focused on identity building, right?
So the more things you do that
re-- 'Cause again, you don't
want to assimilate, right?
So the more things you do that
remind you of your Jewish identity,
so the more valuable it is, right?
So it's like even these Halakhas that
like, the knife and the onion and all
these things, like even if there are
grounds to be meikel, it's like the more
we take away Jewish distinctiveness from
the kitchen we just the less we what
makes us feel, so Jewish are these rules.
So I'm curious if just in general, if
you have any thoughts about that, 'cause
it, it is an area where I think there
is-- there's something going on there
in terms of how Rav Ovadia is thinking
about this, and I think he's one of
the only few poskim who's really in
the world of formal sikra in terms of a
code actually articulated these things
Rabbi Avishai Lax: So first of all,
I'll start from your ending point.
I saw the sameâ¦
Like I, I couldn't agree more.
I seeâ¦
I saw the same difference when
I-- my experience in Canada, I
was a, an assistant rabbi in one
of the commun- one of the shuls.
And my experience was that w-
whenever someone's-- th- there
is a question that comes up, you
need to see what the mesorah is.
And people feel more importance to do
what their parents did rather than doing
the most accurate halakhically thing.
And sometimes it's a kulah,
sometimes it's a humrah.
But as you mentioned, the idea that I
want to have the same kitchen that my
father had, this is-- it sounds like
something that is not correct, 'cause I
wanna continue the mesorah of my parents.
I think when we compare it
to Israel, in Israel, it's a
perpetual seek for Dvar Hashem.
We know that Halakha evolves, and
we have no worries of assimilating.
So we simply ask what what makes sense?
What the Halakha-- how the
Halakha should make sense.
And I remember Rav Melamed told me
that as a child, one time Rav Zalman,
his father cut an onion with a knife
and then washed the knife with soap.
And then he cut an apple, and he asked
Rav Eliezer, little Eliezer, he asked him,
"Do you feel any taste of onion in it?"
And Eliezer said I feel nothing."
So Rav Zalman told him, "You
know that according to Halakha,
you should feel something."
And the they both knew
that there is no flavor.
There is no taste there.
But the idea, I think the idea of
Rav Eliezer Melamed is that Halakha
should make sense, and we don't keep
Halakha only because it's a mesorah.
I think especially the-- these halakhot,
he didn't wanna go into it, but m- very
broadly Arukh HaShulchan says why we
don't say a berakha for kosher and kaleim.
And he says 'cause it's not a mitzvah.
It's the physics of the dishes, right?
The utensils.
And whenever we see that according to
modern physics, there is no taste that is
being absorbed into the walls of the pot.
There is no reason to to
be ostracize the food.
Again, Rav Melamed has his own hiddush.
He says sh- still you should separate
meat and dairy and of course non-kosher,
but not because of the flavor.
It's just for him it's gezerat hakatu very
similar to tevilat keilim, to immersing
dishes, but it's not about the flavor.
'Cause the fact is that we have
no flavor and we feel no flavor.
I think it's a great distinction between
Eretz Yisrael and Chutz La'aretz.
But the idea generally is that we
wanna learn an Halakha in a way that
makes sense, and we know that Halakha
should make sense in our life, and we
work hard to make sense out of Halakha
Rabbi David Silverstein: give you
another example of this, 'cause again,
one of the many great features of Rav
Melamed is that his approach doesn't
only generate leniencies, right?
In other words the "⦠" like Rav
Avraham Stav wrote a review of "⦠" and
I thought he made a good point.
He said basically that it's not
a, it's not a makil book, right?
It's not a, it's not
a lenient book, right?
In other words the approach will
generate stringencies in some areas
and leniencies in some areas, but it's
an approach that isn't built on, let's
say, only Koach DeHetter Adif, right?
It's built on a kind of a different
model that basically if you plug
this model into an algorithm,
sometimes it will generate Humrot.
I'll give you an example of this.
Growing up there's always a
question of what shoes did
you wear on Yom Kippur, right?
So i- obviously, in the Gemara's
imagination you're supposed to
wear less comfortable shoes, right?
And again, you always wore some type of
shoe that was a little less comfortable.
But then with the advent of
Crocs so everyone started wearing
Crocs all the time, right?
I grew up in the US, in Israel
you probably had the same thing
with shore sandals, right?
I see it now with my kids.
In other words, my kids wear shore
sandals every day, and then all of a
sudden it comes time for Yom Kippur and
they wanna put on shore sandals, right?
Because there's no leather, right?
So again, formally speaking, that's
not a problem because there's no
leather and officially, on paper,
the issue is leather per se.
And that's another example where
if you're-- in other words, if
you're thinking about Halakha
in, in very formal terms, right?
So maybe you could say the
issue specifically is leather.
This is not leather, and
therefore it's not an issue.
Admittedly, there were other posts, but
I think Rav Ovadia also doesn't like
people wearing Crocs and stuff like that.
But I think again, and from Rav
Melamed's perspective, I think you
can also see it through the lens
of Halakha making sense, right?
It just doesn't make sense, right?
That all of a sudden we're supposed
to wear less comfortable shoes
on Yom Kippur, and we wear the
exact same shoes that we wear.
They're so comfortable that people wear
shore sandals to hike the Yehudia, right?
So it's if you wear shore sandals to
hike the Yehudia, there's no way you can
claim it's not comfortable while you're
standing there on Kol Nidre, right?
So I think that's another example where
again, there's a certain sense that
we want, people to look at Halakha and
realize that this system makes sense.
It's articulating values, and
the values have to express
themselves in certain ways.
So therefore, yeah, l- I don't know if
he says maybe Bedieved you could wear
it, but certainly LeChatchila he doesn't
want you to wear Crocs, on Yom Kippur.
Can you think of other examples where
you off the top of your head maybe
you feel like, there are spaces where,
the articulation, the formulation
of what comes up in Halakha is also
anchored in the sense that, Halakha
has to speak to our reality in a way
that it's not commonsensical, but it
actually reflec-- the values are easily
articulated through the practices.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: Yeah, I
don't have an example right now.
I'm sure that after I finish the
podcast with you I'll have 10 examples.
But the idea is right, and the
idea is that Rabbi Hamnuid is
not, he's not a machmir per se,
and he's not a meikel either.
And when he spoke about this
principle of sfekah derabanan l'kula
or ko- kocha d'etera adif, Rabbi
Hamnuid, the way he learns, he wanna
see everything, and he wannaâ¦
It's in the army you have a, you have,
like, when you look on a specific
area you have a map, and then you
can put a map, like a transparent
map on it with some additions, right?
And another map on top of this.
So you wanna see all the maps.
Does it make sense?
Wanna put everything together, see what
everyone said about it and understand.
Not only see what they said and count
them as Rav Ovadyah Yosef maybe does.
He wanna see, he wanna listen to
them, and when he listens to them, he
want to understand their opinion very
deeply, and then measuring all of the
opinions, but not just in term of in
terms of numbers, but more in terms of
of of svara, of what makes more sense.
And when you take and
integrate everything, you get
a halacha that makes sense.
Sometimes it's a kula, and I think
most of the times it will be a kula
'cause the way halacha works, some-
someone comes up with a humra and
then people a- adapt the humra.
But when you see everyone that
more people were meikel and it,
and many times it makes more sense.
So many times it will be to kula,
but the idea is not to be meikel
on the person, but helping him
to make sense out of halacha
Rabbi David Silverstein: One of the more
contentious areas that, has people have
discussed in the context of Halakha and
specifically Pirkei Halakha is the issue
of conversion, of the issue of Giyur.
Aside from having a volume on Giyur in
Pirkei Halakha, there's also an amazing
work that the Machon put out called Masort
HaGiyur, which is-- I think it's probably
over 1,000 pages, the book, I think.
It's a massive volume trying to
articulate different perspectives
on the question of Giyur.
This issue became obviously very
relevant not only in chutz la'aretz
but specifically in Israel currently
with the issue of the Russian Olim,
and the question becomes how do we deal
with non-Jews who are functioning as
Israelis but are halakhically non-Jewish.
One of the things, again, I think one of
the things that Rav Melamed articulates
he has this one essay where he talks
about different pathways for conversion,
where he talks almost about a lechatchila
conversion paradigm and like a bedieved,
a post-facto conversion paradigm.
The lechatchila one obviously would
involve like full acceptance of
mitzvot with the intention and,
realistic probability that you're
gonna engage all the mitzvot.
But then the, what he calls the
bedieved, type of conversion, would
basically assume that even if you're
gonna be a traditional Jew ob-obviously,
I think this is also a lot of times
people misunderstand what he's saying.
He's not talking about converts who
don't believe in God or converts
who don't believe in, in the
Torah or about the centrality of
Chazal or Torah min Hashamayim.
The question really is if they're not
gonna observe all the mitzvot as a
realistic probability, at least at the
beginning, can do that kind of conversion.
So I'm curious in general, I think
one of the challenges I think of this
model, particularly thinking about
it in terms of Eretz Yisrael, is
the challenge of like more localized
solutions versus more global solutions.
In the book, he tries to argue
basically that throughout Halakha
history, there have been rabbis and
different personalities who have
articulated like a different standard
of conversion to avoid intermarriage,
to avoid assimilation, et cetera.
But his is much more ambitious, right?
Because he's not talking about
like someone came to Har Bracha
and had a specific situation.
He is talking about like a maslul, right?
Like a maslul of conversion
on a, I assume, in ideally,
like on a national level.
So I'm curious, I don't know if you
worked on the volume of Giyur, but
I'm sure you know a lot about it.
You do have a very excellent podcast
called Kol Geirut Rabboteinu, a
twenty-chapter series on conversion.
So I'm curious just in terms of how you
think about a lot we've been talking about
Torah Eretz Yisrael, about the integration
of Machshava and Halakha, right?
About- The responsibilities for the claw.
Like how does this sort of express
itself in terms of how he thinks about
this question of conversion, right?
Because again, you couldâ¦
it is true, you could always find a
posek, you can find lots of posek,
and you guys document this in an
amazing way in Masoret HaGiyor.
But again, they're all-- from my sense
of it, they're oftentime, oftentimes
localized circumstances, right?
Whereas here we're talking
about a model that he wants to
advocate on a communal level.
So I'm curious if you could
speak for a few minutes about
specifically this question of Giyor
Rabbi Avishai Lax: Sure.
I'll try to unpack it very briefly.
First of all, you said that some poskim
were lenient in certain cases, and as
you mentioned, Rabbi Ahmed, he wanna
change the policy of the state of Israel.
Rabbonut Hashit today, they say that we
don't want to convert people who won't be
Shomer Shabbos, Shomer Kashrut, people who
won't live their life as religious Jews.
We don't want to do that.
By the way, they do that 'cause the
percentage of people who maintain and
keep Torah and Mitzvot after converting
in the Rabbonut Hashit is very low.
It's between 10 to 15%.
So they don't succeed in what theyâ¦
They don't accomplish with what they
wanna do, but this is their approach.
And they say, Rabbi Ahmed c-- he came
and said, "I wanna go through the main
door and allow people to convert if they
believe in God, they believe in Torah."
But they admit that they won't
be able to keep the Torah and
Mitzvot as a religious Jew.
He would be connected in a way, we
can call it a conservative Jew, which
is which is not conservative Judaism.
Which is person who doesn't
keep everything, but he does
kiddush, he does certain things,
Rabbi David Silverstein: In Israel
they call it authority, right?
'Cause conservative Jew has a whole
theological connotation in the US, right?
But Israel just basically is called
Rabbi Avishai Lax: gym maybe,
Rabbi David Silverstein: traditional Jew.
Yeah, think about a traditional
Sephardic Jew, right?
Exactly.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: Correct.
Yeah the Sephardi Jews.
That's the thing.
By the way in Canada, I had no distinction
between Ashkenazim and Sephardi.
You can find people who keep
everything, and people-- some
people keep less, and that's okay.
So Rav Ovadia came and said, "I
wanna see what the rabbis did.
I don't wanna hear their
opinions, the-their tshuvas."
It's an interesting discussion,
but my main question wanna be,
did they convert people that they
were certain that they won't keep
Torah ve'mitzvot as religious Jews?
And he saw that majority
of Poskim did that.
And many of them did it not
only for a specific question.
They had a policy.
Rav Uziel had a policy.
Many of the Rabbim I think the
Maharsham, Rav Gutmacher, they came
up with a general question: What
do we do with all these people?
And they were lenient.
So when you read these questions responsa,
you, that they allowed to convert many
people, not only one person many people
even though they knew that they won't keep
Torah ve'mitzvot as religious Je-Jews.
And the discussion today, by the way
you said that it's a it's a broad
question and not for individual.
I think it always comes to the individual.
'Cause eventually, no matter how many
of them you have lots of individuals,
and each one of them, when you meet
him, he has his story, and his story
moves your heart, r- 'cause you hear,
"My grandparents, they were Jewish.
We survived, and some of
them were in the Holocaust.
But I'm not Jewish.
What do we do now?"
And he wanna become Jewish.
So you can't tell him, "No,
it's not a specific story.
It's a general question."
No, all these specific stories they
pile up to a bigger and larger question,
but every time you come, you see,
it's an individual, and therefore
it's a shaat hazahak, not only for the
community but also for the individual.
When we go on a national
level, it's also shaat hazahak
'cause you have lots of people.
It's about half a million of of
people who live in Israel, and
they are Israelis, but they don't,
does-that-- they don't count as Jews.
When you have them inside us, and they're
a friend of us, some of them, they fight
with me, they fell in battle and when
you don't count them as other people who
are Jewish, it's a bad thing, and then it
might lead to to civil war at some point.
It's not a thing that we wanna
have, and we're very worried.
And when we have this majority
of Poskim who are lenient, we
say, "Why won't we follow them?"
You wanna be machmir?
Okay.
Whenever this guy comes into
your family, you can have
another-- do another conversion.
Tell him to go to the
mikvah, and that's it.
So we can be lenient, and by that
avoid all the the tension within
the State of Israel, and it's a good
thing to do, and we advocate for this.
Rabbi David Silverstein: Coming back to
this theme of interesting elements of Rav
Melamed and the whole project of Halakha.
I think for me, one of the
most exciting elements is the
non-predictable nature of Rav Melamed.
I - find-- I'm always frustrated by this.
I feel like a lot of times when there's a
Halakha conversation, if you give me the
name of the rabbi, I can almost always
tell you what the bottom line is gonna be.
And you see a lot of time-- when I read,
you read a-- let's say you read Makor
Shon, they'll have these advertisements by
different rabbis about different issues.
And it's it's just so predictable, right?
It's like I look at the list of
rabbis, and I would say ninety-nine
point nine percent of the time I'm not
surprised by any of the names, right?
'Cause it seems like almost what's driving
the conversation is an ideology, right?
And somebody who's ideologically committed
to Camp A always has to take certain
Halakha positions, and somebody who's
ideologically committed to Camp B has
to take other Halakha positions, right?
But somebody in Camp B, even if
they agree with Camp A, they just,
they can't cross over, right?
They're just always bound by their
tribe, and they can't cross over.
And Rav Melamed, I think actually
is somebody who crosses over.
In other words if you were to
say to me, "What is Rav Melamed?"
For example, the new volume of
Chafetz Kedusha just came out from
Halakha, and apparently I haven't
seen it yet, but apparently you guys
talk about you finally give a psak
on the issue of techelet, right?
So no, I haven't seen it, but I
really don't know what it's gonna say.
In other words, I really have no
idea if Rav Melamed is going to
endorse techelet or whether he's
not going to endorse techelet.
Whereas I would say a lot of the
time, if you were to ask me, "Name
a rabbi," I'd probably say, "Yeah,
he's probably gonna endorse it.
He's not gonna endorse it."
And I can go through the list, right?
And Rav Melamed, you really
get a sense that he's just
completely unpredictable, right?
That you think he's gonna go one way, and
then he's gonna go a different way, right?
So I'll give you an example
of this, and I'm curious if
you, how you think about this.
You were in, in Canada, and I know this
is definitely the case in the US, one of
the more contentious issues is the issue
of women's issues, and issues related
to female participation, different
dimensions of Jewish life, right?
And here you can see, Rav Melamed,
you would oftentimes think given his
ideological training being part of the
Mir Yeshivot world, being the student
of Rav Melamed, and his training you'd
probably predict that he would go in
one direction in certain areas, right?
But I think this is a great example
where he's all over the place in terms
of how he thinks about the role of
women in the Halakha conversation.
And I think what's so exciting for someone
like me just reading about it is you
really feel like what's driving him is
not any kind of pre preordained conception
of femininity and then that has to fit
into every conception of Halakha detail.
But rather he really wants to
understand what does Judaism think
about women, and then think about how
it applies in specific cases, even
though there may be some differences
based on different scenarios.
I'll give you an example of
this off the top of my head.
R-Rav Melamed has an interesting,
in, in his discussion about about
birth control- so he does validate
the career path of women, right?
In other words, he does see value
in women en-engaging in higher
degrees and investing a lot of
time in academic development.
So i-if you were to adopt that approach
when thinking about, let's say, the
issue of birth control so if I were to
ask you, for example, what would that
same rabbi say, for example, about
the question of Shirut Leumi, right?
So you'd probably say, oh
that rabbi probably is super
in favor of Shirut Leumi.
He's probably even more-- He's
probably in favor heavily in
terms of going to the Israeli army
for women, et cetera, et cetera.
But actually, here's the example where
Rav Melamed splits the difference, right?
On the one hand he has a more makel
view about the question of birth
control, and he incorporates values
there that relate to female aspiration
in terms of professional and academic.
But then when it comes to Shirut Leumi,
now again, this is only one article.
Maybe he changed his mind since then.
But in the Shi- and he says in one place
that he doesn't think women should do
Shirut Leumi, and he argues basically
that if you think about their long-term
contribution to society it allows them to
get married younger, have, many children.
He's advocates big families.
And then he, I think he also says it
also allows them to start their academic
training earlier, which then allows them
to get a more advanced degree, right?
Because he says, basically, if you
start, if you get married later and
then, you have kids when you're young
it may limit your ability to only get a,
to get a PhD as opposed to just an MA.
But he says if you start younger,
then you can move things more quickly.
So again, you don't have to speak
specifically about the example if you
don't want, but just in general, is that
your sense just working with him day in,
day out, that you come into the office
and, you've worked through the Sugia, and
you think he's gonna go in one direction,
then he goes a different direction?
Like it really is to a certain
degree, Yesh me Ayin in terms
of thinking these things through
Rabbi Avishai Lax: So I'll tell you
what, there is one thing HaRav Ben Ami
is predictable at, and he's predictable
to being a guy who listens, and he's
very open to hear, and he's very curious.
And as I said he wants to
understand the Torah, and he's
open to listen to everybody and
hear what everyone has to say.
And many times he changes opinion.
Giyur for conversion, for
example, is a great example.
For many years he was against the lenient
opinion of conversion, but as the years
went by and he saw that there is room
for this leniency, he'd dwell again and
sat again and went deep into the sugya
and came up with a different conclusion.
And I think it's beneficial.
I can give you another example fromâ¦
You said "Come to the office and see
what Ra- what HaRav Ben Ami thinks."
For example, we worked on the
Halakhah of mezuzah in the book
that just came out, Chafzei Kodesh.
And when he gave me the draft,
he had a very clear view what you
do with a porch, with a balcony.
Where do you put the mezuzah?
Should you put it on the way out
to the porch or on the way back
from the porch to the house, from
a, like a second floor balcony?
So he said it was very clear to him
in the draft that you should put it to
your right when you face to the house.
Make sense?
But then I got this sugya, and I sat, and
I saw that majority of poskim, they say,
"No, you should put it on the other side."
So I came to Rabbi Amital and told him,
"Listen, Rav, you said that you should
do A, but I think you should do B."
And we sat together, we discussed,
and he came up with a C conclusion.
He said, "Okay, you know what?
We see that there is a great svara
for those who say to put it on the
right side when you face the balcony.
Some say that you should put it on the
right side when you face the house.
Both has a svara.
Therefore, I wanna give the room of
choice for a person who can determine.
You wanna put it on this
side, put it on that side.
Both are fine, and it's a big chidush
in halakha in Halachot Mezuzah."
But he was very open to listen and to
have this discussion again, even though
he's paskening like this for many years.
I think in terms of he spoke about--
It's an anecdote, but he spoke about
going to avoiding Sherut Leumi versus
being lenient on birth control.
I think it's the same thing.
Rabbi Amital has the approach.
He value the work of women, and therefore
he says, "I don't want you to go for
two years to do Sherut Leumi and do
something that you're not good at.
I rather you to go learn, have a
degree in something that you're
good at and do things that are more
valuable for the state of Israel."
Just for just an example, my two
sister-in-laws, they both have a PhD, and
they both finished it before they wereâ¦
I think one of them was 25 years
old, the other one was 26 maybe.
One is in e-economics, the
other one is in history.
But they could have done it only because
they avoided Sherut Leumi, 'cause
they have one of them had, have nine
children, the other one has six children.
And having all these kids without
completing your PhD, you won't
be able to do that, and you'll
stay, as you said, with an MA.
So because he advocate he sees this as a
value, he says it's more beneficial for
the State of Israel to avoid Sherut Leumi
Rabbi David Silverstein: But even
there, for example, it's actually
an amazing formulation, right?
'Cause even there the underlying
motive there is national.
In other words he wants people to be as
maximally contributive to the experience
of living in the state of Israel, right?
He's saying i- in a certain sense, the
ultimate goal is to contribute, right?
The question is Shema Yisrael the
best way to contribute or is another
way the best way to contribute?
So the core principle is basically
about contribution, right?
The core principle is not about
avoiding responsibility, it's actually
about encouraging responsibility.
Let me just end by talking about one last
piece, which I'm also very fascinated by.
So Rav Melamed has a book where one of
the volumes, Pirkei Halacha, is called
the Simchat HaBayit, where he talks
about Jewish conceptions of sexuality.
And at the beginning of the book,
again, y- you mentioned over the
course of the, of our discussion that
he focuses a lot on the integration
of Halacha and Hashkafa, right?
That there's a narrative framework that
sort of frames the experience of the law.
And this has always been a tension
for Jewish thinkers, right?
How do you conceptualize the
body versus the soul, right?
And one of the sort of practical
implications of this is how do
you conceptualize sexuality in
the context of marriage, in the
context of Jewish living Dehalal.
So I mentioned, again, I'll bring up
my friend again, Rabbi Eli Fisher.
He has an article coming out
about Rav Lichtenstein and his,
different aspects of his Zionism.
And one of the things he contrasts
there is Rav Lichtenstein his
approach to sexuality versus Rav
Melamed's approach to sexuality.
And both of them are struggling, I
think, with the same issue, which is
that there are quite a few Rishonim who
have a very negative view of the body
and have a negative view of sexuality.
And think about it basically that it's
something, we have to do to procreate,
but again, it's not something which
we see any kind of inherent value in.
And Rav Lichtenstein draws
a contrast between Chazal
and certain Rishonim, right?
And basically, his methodology is
classical in the sense that it's okay,
Chazal have a more nuanced approach.
Certain Rishonim have like
a more limited approach.
There's a minority of Rishonim who have a
more kind of classically Chazal approach.
And therefore, it's okay if we take
a more positive view of sexuality
because we're being loyal to A, Chazal.
We're being loyal to, let's say group
of Rishonim, and that's enough to
move the conversation forward, okay?
Rav Melamed, when he starts off that
book, the Simchat HaBayit book- he doesn't
deal with it at all in the same way.
He's quoting from all over the place
in terms of Tanakh, in terms of
book questions of Jewish thought.
And he basically assumes that there
is a discrepancy oftentimes between
kind of the more limited dimension
of Jewish life in the Galut, in the
diaspora, versus a more expansive
definition of Jewish life in Israel.
And he thinks basically that when we
come back to the land of Israel we can
actually reclaim a more holistic vision
of what it means to be a Jew, which
obviously integrates the body and soul.
And that space basically has a much
more positive view of sexuality.
And he even has a chapter in the book
where he deals with the Rambam, right?
Because the Rambam has a very negative
view of sexuality, and obviously Rav
Malami can't just ignore that Rambam.
But he does deal with it.
He does think about it.
And I'm curious in general if you think
that this is like another example of a
theme that we keep coming back to, right?
Which is that, Halakha has
a vision for the world.
The body's part of our life.
The body is the way in which
we interact with the world.
Obviously, there are passages in Rav
Kook that talk about the centrality of
the body and the importance of the body.
And I'm curious again if you think that on
this topic specifically, without getting
into Halakha detail, just the general
framing of it is also part of a larger
way he thinks about different things and
this being just an application of it.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: I
think you're 100% right.
When you go to another book of him,
the book of Nida the Hilchot Nida,
Taharat Hamishpacha, that he says
that the state of having a couple that
can't have marital intimacy and can't
be together, it's a negative thing.
And this is why in many details that
we won't go through now, he says,
"I wanna be lenient 'cause the ideal
state, the ideal mode is that a
couple can be together and can enjoy
together and have not only spiritually
connection, but also a physical
connection a- as their a- as they want."
And I agree.
I think the way he sees this mitzvah
of Mitzvat Ona, it's a new approach.
When I was in Yeshiva and w- I got
married, so one of the rabbis, he
taught me I had a short course with him.
So his approach was the Haredi
approach that you have the physical
connection, but it's only a
platform for a spiritual connection.
Rabbi Lamid holds, no, we wanna
have a spiritual life, but also a
physical life that contains joy.
And having the joy as a lechatchila
thing and not only as a platform
from something else, I think it's
quite different from the general
perspective or the Haredi perspective.
And this is something he holds, and
he's willing to be lenient on Hilchot
Nida to allow the couple to have
more time that they're permitted to
want each other rather than having
the time that they're not permitted.
You could have come up and
say, "This is á»tzon Hashem.
This is the will of God.
Sometimes you're permitted and
sometimes you're not permitted,
but both are the will of God."
Rabbi Lamid holds, no, Hashem wants
us to have this joy, and as long as
we can minimize the time that we're
prohibited, we will try to do that.
But when we are prohibited,
he might be a machmir.
As I said earlier, he, he's
not a meikel to be a meikel.
It's just because he values the
time that the family can reunite.
Rabbi David Silverstein: Maybe I'll
just end with one last question.
You posted a shiur that you gave
recently when the new book came
out, Pnei Halacha of Chafetz Chaim.
You gave a shiur about Pnei Halacha, and I
thought you had an interesting take on it.
Again, feel free to correct me if
I'm wrong, but basically a lot of
times when people write things really
clearly, it implies simplicity.
But actually, the nisuach, the
formulation is actually quite complex.
And if you understand what goes behind the
formulation, you realize that, like all
the little sort of parentheses in there
and all the different references and all
the different kind of see a Rambam here,
et cetera, et cetera, it's not arbitrary.
In other words, it's, it's
like learning the Rambam.
Every, word is significant.
I think a lot of times, if my kids are
home and, somebody drops a milchig spoon
in a fleishig sink and they don't know
what to do, and they can't reach me,
so they can look at Pnei Halacha and
they can figure it out in five seconds.
But if it's a seventh grader
reading Pnei Halacha, right?
They're not really appreciating
how much goes into the formulation.
So I'm just curious if you
could just give like for two
minutes some examples of this.
'Cause I thought the way you articulated
it really opened things up for me.
In other words, I knew deep down in my
heart that he's collecting all different
views, and you're basically writing it in
a way that kind of brings things together.
But the way you presented
it was like really creative.
It was like even like a
period here or, a comma here.
If you really think these things
through, the subtleties are actually
where all the nuance really is.
So if you could just give an
example of that'd be great.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: Yes.
So first of all, as I mentioned, I
know Rav Benhamou for many years,
since I got married, and I knew
he's very clear in what he writes.
But only when I came to the machon, I got
to understand how hard he works on every
word, every brackets, every sentence.
He works hard, and many times I work
on a class with him and we discuss.
And then he sends me an
email with a few changes.
Like he changed like three words,
and he said, "What do you think now?
Do you think it makes more sense?
Do you think people can understand
this and that different?"
So he works really hard in terms--
in a very specific in a very closeâ¦
he's zooming in.
Let's put it this way.
And as I explained in, in, in this
shiur, which is in Yeshivat Har Etz Hayim
YouTube channel, I just gave an example.
I read a few sentences from Pnei Halacha,
and I said you need to know thatâ¦"
I'll tell you the story behind it.
This this paragraph in Pnei Halacha, there
was supposed to be a footnote behind it.
But Rav Benhamou, he said
I like it to be short."
So he took off the footnote, and instead
of the footnote, he put all the-- he
hinted to the ideas of the footnote
within the words and the way he structured
it and the-- and even the brackets.
Like when he mentioned Rambam and Shulchan
Aruch, it was specifically to mention them
to show you that it's not in the Gemara.
Their addition, it does
not appear in the Gemara.
It appears only in them.
Then when he mentioned the Orach Chayyim
in a different sentence, instead of
saying that this is something that
you've come up, it's a common sense
to come up with the Shulchan Aruch and
Rambam without going into the example.
They said that if you put the
mezuzah, let's give the example.
You put it on the other
side, you're not being yotze.
So common sense means that if you
put it on the other side, so then
when you put it back on the right
side, you should make a bracha again.
But then he says, "No, it's not clear,"
'cause there is one of the poskim who
said that, "No, even though you put
it on the wrong side, you were yotze."
Therefore, Rav Benhamou divides
it and gives another brackets for
different poskim to emphasize that
those poskim said clearly that
you should make a bracha again.
And it happens many times.
Sometimes he quotes an Ashkenazi posek
and a Sephardi posek to make people
understand that all the poskim, all the
minhagim goes along with this bottom line.
And if you don't know
it you wouldn't notice.
But now when I know the work
behind it, I see that every time
he writes, and it's also in recent
books and old books, he writes very
clearly, but also very accurate
Rabbi David Silverstein:
Really fascinating.
So just to end with a
few housekeeping pieces.
If people wanna hear more of your
shiurim, I know that you haveâ¦
If people speak Hebrew, you have a 20-part
podcast called Ko Gairu Rabotenu, right?
It's available on Spotify, right?
So they can look it up on Spotify.
And also this shiur you specifically just
mentioned just now, you also have that
on the Habracha YouTube channel, right?
Okay, amazing.
So Rabbi Avishai, thank you so much
for coming on the Curious Jew podcast.
Rabbi Avishai Lax: My pleasure
Rabbi David Silverstein: Amazing.
This was really great.
Thank you for joining us on The Curious
Jew, a podcast of Yeshivat Orighta!
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