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The Pilot Project Podcast is an aviation podcast that aims to help new pilots learn what it takes to succeed in the world of flight, to help people in the flight training system learn what they may want to fly, and to give Canadians and the world a peek into life on the flight deck in the RCAF. We want to help pilots succeed and thrive! We interview real RCAF pilots for their exciting stories as well as the lessons they've learned along the way. We'll learn their tips to develop resilience and the tools it takes to make it in flight training.
This episode is proudly brought to you by the F-thirty five partner team of Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, and RTX. With over 1,000 Canadian employees at five major facilities across Canada, the F-thirty five program is providing unmatched capabilities and interoperability for Canada and allied militaries around the world. Learn more at www.f35.com/canada.
Intro:Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set. PD switches.
Intro:Normal. Doors and hatches. Closed. Lie down. Stroblade.
Intro:On. Research check-in fleet with your left. Engineer, start number two. Turning two. Wind three one zero ten, pilot project podcast, clear takeoff runway three one left.
Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Skies Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and today we're once again doing something different for our show and featuring our first American guest. With me today is author of the book Moonchild and United States Air Force veteran tech surgeon Anthony Dyer, a retired aerial gunner on the AC one thirty h Spectre gunship and the HH 60 g Pave Hawk helicopter. Anthony, I'm pumped to continue our chat and learn more about you and your book today, so thank you again for being here.
Anthony:Thanks for that, man.
Bryan:Glad to be here, man. Appreciate it. Listeners can check out part one to hear about Anthony's early days in Appalachians as well as joining the USAF and his first baptism of fire on the AC one thirty eight Spectre gunship. Today, we'll be talking about his operational life as well as his post release life and some of the things he went through in that journey. So as we said before, you started deploying to Afghanistan.
Bryan:Can you tell us about what your mission there was? Maybe a little review on kind of the missions you guys were doing there as well as describe the deployments in general?
Anthony:Yeah. So we basically, there's there's two types of gunship missions that that would happen. And what I mean by that is there's the planned ones where, like, you you study this operation for at least a week, you know, and, there there's products and there you know exactly who the guys on the ground are going after. It's very planned, very detailed. You know where other air players are gonna be above you, below you, etcetera.
Anthony:Then then, back then we had pagers, believe it or not. And like, basically for a troops in contact situation, basically what that means is like the guys are getting lit up and they need your close air support like now. And and, you would get certain numbers on a pager that would alert launch you. Like, you would read, okay. We gotta go to talk and then get our whatever we have and then go.
Anthony:And, you know, the the agreement sort of was like, you know, thirty minutes off the ground to, going to the op at least. And, know, you so it's either one of those two things. And and, you know, sort of mentioned earlier, 2011, it started to slow down a little bit, but not entirely. And, but, basically, yeah, there was a lot of, you know, raids and, like, if there's any type of direct action stuff, like, guys are kicking down doors. Like, we we were there often as the insurance, you know.
Anthony:So you wouldn't always shoot, but, you know, once a week or something like that would be like a not an unrealistic number to shoot, something like that. But, know, there was nights where we would take off and, like, it was a kinetic type engagement where, like, they get you know, this guy, they're gonna do they want him dead. Right? And, we would shoot one one zero five round and proximity type round and just, you know, come back, you know. Then there was nights where, you know, we were getting at it earlier where you're just doing a lot of droning and keeping your eyes on certain stuff and painting that picture for the the ground guys.
Bryan:So there were nights where you guys had, like, a specific person that you were after?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. There there'd be nights where, like, the guys on the ground would you know, like, let's say the steals are going after this guy or that guy, you know, and, you know, you would brief so much, you know, like, before that that operation. Like, you would know everything's gonna happen. You know, you studied it that much.
Anthony:And then, basically, they they go in and, you know, they bag and tag this guy, you know, get information, you know, stuff like that. Right? And, you know, there's SSC at the end where you're getting all this different what that means is getting computers, cell phones, all the different equipment and see what other intel you can get. So it sort of builds on each other.
Bryan:Okay.
Anthony:But, yeah, you know, there there was all that going on. And then there's the, you know, the other side of what I was talking about with the beepers. Like, you get paged and, like, you know, before you even overhead, the the guy on the ground is clearing you in the gauge with a 40 mil and a one zero five to to shoot. You know? And that's that was honestly, some of my favorite ones were, like, basically, that you would have nothing but a, you know, a location and a call sign and a and, you know, and a radio frequency.
Anthony:And and we would go on that information and go to where they were at. And, you know, it's a it's a thing, like I said, you never get used to. You know, you're you're so many miles out and, know, and the sensor operators are picking them up and stuff like that. And they just start running because you're, you know, you're you're noise propping. You know, at that point, they know and you know it's over and, you know, it's usually a a quicker night after that, would say.
Bryan:So Yeah. So we got a couple terms there I wanna just quickly go over. You said talk, which I believe is tactical operations center. That's correct. Yeah.
Bryan:We talked about troops in contact, which is also referred to as a tick. And that's a pretty common term, I think, in most Western militaries. Another kinda important part of the process is that your crew would get tasked via a five line message by radio from a joint terminal air controller or JTAC. Can you explain what a five line and a JTAC are and how this process goes?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. So JTAC stands for joint terminal air controller. You know, usually, it's a it's either like a combat controller that it's a certification is what it is. Basically, they're they're qualified just like we're qualified to fly an aircraft, do our certain jobs in aircraft.
Anthony:They get qualified on calling in close air support. So, you know and those guys, you know, even the combat controller pipeline, those guys, like, I couldn't imagine doing what those guys do just to get through that. You know?
Bryan:Their job is crazy.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. You know? You know, Superman school for a reason.
Anthony:Mhmm. I definitely did not do that. You know? But, yeah. But they, they're usually the guys calling us in.
Anthony:You know, there is different, you know, different nations have different J Techs with different, you know, units or whatnot. But basically they're the guys that call you in for the, the close air support. You know, I got an example of how one would sound, you know, calling in the gunship specifically. And it's usually like a, a five line, like, special operations, like gun chip control type, you know, calls for fire, if you will.
Bryan:You say you have an example?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I got one. I just sort of this is it would sound something like this if you want me to go ahead with it.
Bryan:Yeah. Go for it.
Anthony:Yeah. It would say this, for example, like, know, Spectre 61, this is Reaper 45, fire mission over. Then we would respond Reaper45, Spectre61, send it. You know, line one would be like, you know, my position, you know, TRP two marked by IR strobe. And then, you know, line two would be, like, target location with bearing two seven zero range 500 meters.
Anthony:And then line three would be your target description, what they're giving you. Like, you got three enemy fighters out in the open, and line four is what they're gonna clear to shoot with would be like the one zero five high explosive, for example. And then line five is a really important one where they're like, you know, you're clear to engage. And if it's a, a danger close shoot, which means we're shooting really close to the to the bad guys, that there's some risk that has to be bought, and you ask for the ground force commander's initials to basically give you that permission.
Bryan:Okay. Awesome.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of those things like the the danger close shoots, you know, they they're rare, but they do happen. You know? And that's basically, you know, there's a decision that has to be made between the front of the aircraft and the back, and we talk about it.
Anthony:And, you know, we have a saying where the the guys on the ground on the rounds, right, because they're calling us and giving us that permission. But we on the switches where like, hey, if we do this, like, there could be the worst case scenario, which would be fratricide. That's something you definitely won't ever you definitely won't ever wanna have to do one
Bryan:of those because it it gets hairy. You know? How many did you were danger close shoots common?
Anthony:Not too common, but they happened, you know, I I would say probably the whole time I did it, probably, like, three times, you know, in in Afghanistan, all for those. But
Bryan:I hate to ask, but did any of them result in friendly fire?
Anthony:No. No. Oh, thank god for that. Yeah. Yeah.
Anthony:Yeah. I I couldn't I mean, I couldn't I probably would have never been able to continue if if that would have happened or something like that. You know?
Bryan:That would be that's the worst. There's not there's there's basically nothing worse in in warfare.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. A 100%.
Bryan:So you touched on this a little in the last episode. You mentioned in the book that people ask if being on the gunship was like the game zombie gunship, which probably most people have seen advertised on their phones. Or I'd imagine people have played Call of Duty and wondered if they were similar. What's it really like to crew a gunship, and what do those fictional examples get wrong?
Anthony:Yeah. I would say that, particularly those those examples get wrong, like the rate of fire for the one zero five. Like like, you look at e even movies like where the transformer scene where Tyrese calls it in on the the Septicon, I believe it was. And then I believe the covenant has a, you know, a portrayal of that as well. But basically the rate of fire, you know, and they they look like saber rounds or something coming out, but, know, you're getting very slower rate of fire, you know, four to 10 rounds per minute on the one zero five and, you know, just basically that.
Anthony:And yet the fact that there's actually another, you know, human, you know, human life at the other end of that you're taking. Mhmm. You know, so it's a very, you know, personal thing with that too. Know? So I never people ask me if I played, like, Modern Warfare, all that stuff.
Anthony:You know? I'm like, no, man. Because got the shirt, man. Right? Like, you know, I love doing it, you know, but, like, at the end of the day, don't wanna play a game with it or something like that.
Anthony:You know?
Bryan:That's fair. You know, I never thought about the biggest difference there, which, as you said, is that there's a human life on the other end of that round. And those games obviously can't make that real. So whether it's, you know, zombies or a transformer getting hit or something that's not even human or in even a game like Modern Warfare where it is a a person, it's not a real person where you you've done that with real people. So you can't you can't simulate that.
Anthony:A 100%. Yeah. And that that's why even like going through training, was getting at earlier, like, you know, there's certain things that they can't train, you know, that the experiences you have in combat and what whatever that is, that that very terrible situation that they can't simulate. So that's why they're sort of, you know, they they lean on you a lot. You know?
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Now this is kind of an interesting topic, and it's something that I think Canadian military tends to shy away from a little bit. But you talk about killing in the book as being your job, which given what a gunship is and what it's for makes sense.
Bryan:Can you describe what it's like to engage the enemy and keep those special operations forces or soft folks safe?
Anthony:Yeah. So I think seeing the the big picture, like, the the why behind it all is is to make sure, as mentioned earlier, those those guys get home, you know, and, you know, there there is you see some carnage, obviously, with that, you know, in the, you know, the especially in the debrief and you're going over all this stuff and you're seeing the, you know, the you know, basically replay. Right? And, you know but, yeah, you you realize that there's a bigger picture to it and, like, you know, that you that we do it for them, you know, and to save lives, you know, so and at the end of the day, man, they're, you know, they're usually terrorists that you're killing. Right?
Anthony:So it's it's part of it. You know? Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. And I guess, you know, they're gonna be there one way or the other. Right? Yep. Those Americans have a job to do, and they're gonna be there.
Bryan:So they might as well have the best support possible to bring them home.
Anthony:A 100%. Yeah. And like I said, it's all about them. And, you know, it's like, I never regretted, like, a round that went out to take care of a of a high value tar or, like, a bad guy. Right?
Anthony:Yeah. Like, you know, like, it was all about, you know, delighting the situation and getting those guys home. And, you know, it's like, that never bothered me, you know, but, you know, some guys, it it may I don't know, on different airframes, stuff like that. But definitely the gunship remember we even signed a letter like, hey. Like, in this job, there's a high ops tempo and there's gonna be lives taken.
Anthony:You know? You had to sign that letter. So Mhmm.
Bryan:How how did it feel, as you say in the book, to stack bodies in large numbers and see that kind of carnage? Did you find that it affected you or your peers?
Anthony:So I I had one friend that it affected, really, you know, really bad, but he ended up getting help and, and he's a lot better man for that, you know, and got out and everything. He's a super really good gunner, really good aviator, and it's a really good person, you know.
Bryan:And Mhmm.
Anthony:You know, we went into the ISIS conflict, and it it was just it was pretty wild at first because there was really no guys on the ground. And it was like, basically, like a person sitting in a a tactical operations center with, a general right.
Bryan:Like Yep.
Anthony:You know, hey. You know, that's hostile. Clear doing gay, you know, stuff like that. But, it was a lot a lot of numbers in that one. And, you know, some people it did affect, some people it didn't.
Bryan:Yeah. And it's kind of you just don't know. You don't know who it's gonna affect. It's it's I'm sure there's a science behind it. I'm sure that as they keep studying post traumatic stress disorder and various combat traumas that they're going to learn more about who it affects and why.
Bryan:But you just don't you know, on the surface of it, you don't know who it's gonna affect. Some people walk away from it and they're okay, and other people walk away from it deeply affected for the rest of their lives.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. And I and I and I think the important part was all this. Like, my my main message in all this and getting this story out is, like, we're very normal men and women doing very, very uncommon, unordinary things. Right?
Anthony:And no matter what side of the this coin we're on was America, can you know, Canada, Britain, like, we're all in this together, you know, and, like, there's gonna get to a point where, like, you know, it's okay not to be okay and you have to realize that fact. And Mhmm. You know, if you get help, you know, I feel like I'm a better man because of that, because I made that conscious decision to choose better over bitter, you know?
Bryan:Me too. Absolutely. I'm, you know, I'm still a work in progress, but I'm so much better than I was years ago. And I'm so glad that I went and got help. It was a turning point in my life for sure.
Anthony:I'm pulling for you, Brian. You got it,
Bryan:man. Thank you, man. Hey. Just out of curiosity, do you ever support Canadian troops in Afghanistan? Anything like that ever happened?
Anthony:Yeah. There was a a couple of Canadians off, you know, I can't remember exactly what they were doing, but I remember, you know, pretty much special operators across the the globe and, like, our our four our, our partner nations. Right? You know, we supported it, man. The Aussies, the Brits, you know, the Polish at
Bryan:one point. I remember that. Just stuff like that. Right on. That's awesome.
Bryan:What is the craziest thing you witnessed as a gunner on the Spectre gunship in Afghanistan?
Anthony:I think that's a very good question. The craziest thing. Yeah. I would say the, the moment where long story short, we were at Bagram and, and there was this guy that worked at the chow hall and he was, a third country national is what it was called. And basically he had, he had base access, you know, what it was was we ended up getting in a pretty heavy shoot in Afghanistan one night.
Anthony:I didn't think anything of it, you know, and, like, they're anywhere from, like, 20 it's pro approximately 20 dudes, I think, something like that. We're shooting RPGs again at, you know, our guys. Right? And we ended up getting into it with them and, we get back and usually we would always land. Daylight would be coming up, we'd get breakfast, there was waffles and omelets.
Anthony:And like, man, we're like, where's the where's this waffle man at? Right? Like, where's this guy at? Know? Like, he made good waffles, you know?
Anthony:And and, you know, basically like two, we realized like, man, that guy, man, he made, you know, good waffles and they replaced him. We're like, man, I wonder what happened to that guy. Like two weeks later, like the, one of the, you know, the green break teams come up like, hey, know, just so you guys know, you guys smoked a waffle, man, the other night. No. The other night, you know?
Anthony:Yeah. I mean, stuff like that, you can't make up, man.
Bryan:It just it's crazy stuff like that. Like, how he had So he was Taliban?
Anthony:Yes. Supporting Taliban. Yeah. And, you know, we ended up getting in a shooting near base. You know?
Anthony:I remember it. And Yeah. And, you know, mopping the floor with him. But, yeah, he it is what it is. You know?
Anthony:And I it's but the scary part was that guy was on base. You know? Like, man
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah.
Anthony:How does that happen? You know?
Bryan:Yeah. That is crazy. That's wild. So now we're going to get into a war that I also took part in as an ally as well. In late two thousand fourteen, the emerging threat was ISIS.
Bryan:You deployed to Kuwait as senior director of operations or SDO. The ISIS mission was fully ramped up. What did your job involve as SDO?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was a lot of, like, I believe, actually, at this point because we we were in Afghanistan, and then the other crew got alerted to wake up to go to Kuwait. Okay. That that was 2014.
Anthony:And Yeah. And 2015 is when when I actually went. Know, You by the time those guys they were over there so long, by the time they got back, we we were going out and we went out there. But, yeah, it was, basically to to, you know, take care of the the the men and women that that fly, you know, the the guys and, you know, that you're monitoring flight hours, you know, and there's there's rules just like, you know, like, just for example, like, to an aviator deployment, like like, ninety days, you have 330 flight hours, and it is a really hard thing to do to to get a waiver above that. Yep.
Anthony:And that's for for rest reasons and, you know, your mental clarity, stuff like that. And but, yeah, I was managing that, you know, make sure everybody's, you know, air conditioner was working, a lot of stuff like that. And, you know, we were really new to still to coat to that air base. And, you know, I remember different agencies, you know, that you're gonna need the support guys, you know, and I remember we would give static displays, like, to sort of paint a picture of, hey. This is what's going on.
Anthony:This is who you're supporting. Right? To the to the HVAC guys, the air conditioning guys was Kuwait, man. It's hot. Right?
Anthony:Oh, yeah. You know, I remember one guy asked me
Bryan:It's crazy hot.
Anthony:Leaflets out. Yeah. Yeah. One guy asked me if we asked, like, if we drop leaflets off the gunship, I'm like, no, man. We don't do that.
Anthony:You know? So I just just dealing with stuff like that and, you know, but and it was a it was a very weird thing because you're you're eating in this beautiful chow hall, you're getting ice cream, you're getting this best food in the world, right, and at a deployed location anyway. And, you know, two hours later, you're flying over Baghdad, man.
Bryan:Like, you
Anthony:know, that's like, wow. You know, like, just that that switch I had to turn on or they had to turn on every time they would do that. It's a hard thing to put in words, really.
Bryan:Yeah. I what time what what months were you there in 2015?
Anthony:So it was I got there before May. So it was oh, it was March, April for, like, six months at
Bryan:that point. So we were actually there at the exact same time. Were you flying out of Aliyah Slim?
Anthony:Yep. Yep. We're the same base. Yeah. Were there at that point.
Bryan:Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Same base, same time.
Bryan:Yeah. I was flying in the P 3. We call it the the CP one forty Aurora, but doing ISR collecting data on targets and things. I'm pretty
Anthony:sure we gave you guys a a a few stack displays and vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. If I remember right. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's pretty cool that that we were we were there at the same time at the same place. And I totally agree.
Bryan:It it was totally weird too. We had a tempo of like basically day on day off and we had two crews. So the Aurora was flying every day, but each crew was flying every other. And it was weird to go, like go to the the DFAC, the dining facility, get this like amazing food. You know, I love like you said, the waffles on on Sundays and the curry on Fridays.
Bryan:Like you get used to all the days and stuff. And then like flip the switch and now you're over Iraq. And you're watching a firefight happen and rockets are flying and tracer fires going everywhere and Yeah. Yeah. It's And it was pretty crazy days during 2015.
Bryan:Like, the fighting was especially around like Beiji, North Of Baghdad and
Anthony:Oh, yeah.
Bryan:It was pretty crazy.
Anthony:Yeah. And it's it's a hard thing to put in words, that switch. Right? Like, that that mental moment to where you're like, okay. Like, you know, I need to I need to do this.
Anthony:I need to get my head clear so I could we can go do this mission. Right? Yeah. And, you know, you know, there's a pool one day and there's crab legs and Yeah. Lobster on Friday.
Anthony:The next thing you know, you're, you know, thousands of feet in the air and, you know.
Bryan:Yeah. And and I found what was tough for us was what I found what I found scary personally was that we were always, like, way behind, like, the friendly the the enemy lines. Right? Like, you're either over Mosul, the capital of ISIS, or you're way over in, like, you know, West Of Iraq or all these crazy places where, like, anything goes wrong, you're not getting home. Oh, yeah.
Bryan:Yeah.
Anthony:And that and that was always a very real, like like, sort of I don't know. Always in the back of my head. Like, you know, that's when you remember you're serious to all that stuff. You know? Like because you're like, man, like, the stuff that was going on that ISIS was doing, man, you know, that that was terrible.
Anthony:You know? Evil stuff, you know. And like you said, if I couldn't imagine going down out there, man, like, you know.
Bryan:Yeah. That's basically the root of the issues I still deal with today is the fear from that time. It was it was pretty it was pretty crazy.
Anthony:Yeah. And they and they were like they started out really dumb. I'll say that, you know, and then and then they got smart, you know, and and, you know, there was stuff they had that could, you know, get us. Right? Stuff like that.
Anthony:But, yeah, it's it's a way to be smart on our end too, you know?
Bryan:Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. How was the mission against ISIS in Iraq different from the mission against the Taliban in Afghanistan?
Anthony:Yeah. So there was a lot of, like, type three control with the so what I mean by that is I sort of talked about earlier, but like, a guy sitting in a basically this big room with all these screens and, like, probably like a colonel or general Mhmm. You know, declaring what's hostile and all this different stuff that goes into that. A lot of those type of shoots at that point, anyway. You know, there there was a couple, you know, boots on the ground stuff there.
Anthony:But, yeah, it was very rare. It was probably two or three of those total.
Bryan:And and how did that compare to Afghanistan? You said Afghanistan was more boots on the ground?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. I would say Afghanistan definitely. You know, you got, you know, door kickers, guys going in and stuff like that, you know, and, you know, Iraq, man. You know, stuff like the the Peshmerga, you know, you'd see them do things and
Bryan:Yeah. Way in the North. Yeah. Yeah. There was different players and stuff for sure.
Bryan:Like, I think Iraq was more, typically, it was more either Peshmerga, which is Kurdish militia in the North, or the Iraqi military themselves, and then, like, some soft. Right? But to a limited extent.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. It was very rare for for soft boots on the ground in in those days anyway. Yeah.
Bryan:Was the fighting more or less intense in Iraq than Afghanistan at that time, and in what ways?
Anthony:I would say that there was definitely we shot more, I would say, in in Iraq. When ISIS first kicked off than than I did, you know, as I Afghanistan was winding down, you know Mhmm. It'd be nothing, you know, at that point, to go get an engagement. You know? Mhmm.
Anthony:And that, you know, with that, you know, there would be, like, you know, surface to air fire, stuff like that and, you know, self defense rules of engagement where, like, yeah, they just shot at us. You know, at that point, like, you do, like, a sparkle talk on and they know it's over. They're dead at that point. Yeah. You know?
Anthony:So it's stuff like that. Can you
Bryan:explain explain what a sparkle talk on is?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. So a sparkle talk on would be like, if you if you have MEGs on it, imagine this IR, like, this laser pointer that, like, comes down from our aircraft to where, like, okay, I'm gonna get I'm gonna sit in the back looking at a window. I'm gonna move this thing around to where I can get, you know, the sensor operators or the Sizzo or Wizzos, like, screens on that to look at it real time, to one shot at us.
Bryan:Right? And for the listeners, a Sizzo is a combat systems officer and a Wizzo is a weapon systems officer.
Anthony:And then once that's seen, right, well, okay, this is it. Like, they showed us with this caliber, this, this, and this. You know, at that point, rules of engagement, you know, gotta defend ourselves. And after we got away from that threat, we would, you know, take care of that threat.
Bryan:It must have been nice to be able to reach back out against someone who's shooting at you. Like, we didn't have we didn't even have self defense suites on the Auroras in those days. They added them later, but we didn't have chaff and flare or any of that kind of stuff. We just are we didn't have a defense. Our only defense was to fly higher.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. It was I I just never knew why they they kept doing it. You know? Like, okay.
Anthony:Well, we're gonna shoot at these guys at 06:00, and the next thing you know, we blow them out the street. You know? I never understood that. They just kept doing it. You know?
Anthony:But I guess in the end, like, you're fighting somebody that probably wants to die anyway a lot of times. You know? And it's I think it's bad.
Bryan:I think a lot of them grew up in they're they're uneducated like, in the true meaning of the word, they're uneducated villagers who don't know better, and they're recruited into this thing that they're kind of brainwashed into joining. And I just think they don't know.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. You could be exactly right, man. Yeah. That's never know the why, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, when that happens, you definitely gotta react fast and, you know, and defend yourself.
Anthony:100%. Absolutely.
Bryan:So let's switch gears here a little bit and talk about your personal life. During all this fighting and war, you managed to meet your wife, Sherry. Can you tell us about her and how you met?
Anthony:Yeah. So I was I just came back from a deployment. So this was actually actually, I think it was that deployment I'm telling you about. And, you know, the '16. And I got back and a friend a mutual friend invited us.
Anthony:She was going to college at, Eastern New Mexico University, to be a teacher. And then I my friend's like, hey. Let's go to this party. These girls are gonna be there, but first, let's play basketball. And we went to basically Eastern New Mexico University, played basketball there, and there's this this bridge that comes over to connect basically across the road to the dorms and stuff like that.
Anthony:And, you know, so we played basketball. And I remember she was really good at basketball, man. She had this this attitude, you know, I I grew up around native Americans, right, and all that culture. Right? And if you've seen Reservation Dogs, actually, you know, Willie Jack, Pauline Alexis is from up there where you guys are, I think.
Anthony:But but she had that sort of like a the attitude that I remember sort of growing up, you know, the things they would say, like, go then or as in let's go then or studios, let's do this. She would say things like that. And I you know, at that moment, I asked her, well, hey. Are are you, you know, native American by any chance? Does she rode on this bridge right after basketball.
Anthony:And, you know, she smiled and said, yeah. And just that moment, man, realized I loved her, man. And, like, just an instant connection. Like, they say, you know when you know. It was definitely one of those moments.
Anthony:Right? Like, that God gives us few of and
Bryan:Yeah.
Anthony:You know, I'm glad that happened. And yeah, the so we, got engaged, right before I went to the helicopter training when I switched airframes to the Pave Hawk and end up, while I was going through initial qualification for that training, I end up, we end up getting pregnant and, you know, we need TRICARE and things like that and had the baby right when I got to Moody Air Force Base, you know, nine months later.
Bryan:Which must have been tough.
Anthony:Yeah. It was a it was a it was a beast. You know, we get in this new area and it's probably the most humid I've ever been in my life, and it's pretty much the Florida Georgia line and, you know, alligators must get as big as, you know, quarters doing you're doing your preflight, stuff like that.
Bryan:Must have been also tough though to have just had a a baby. Now did your family come with you?
Anthony:Yeah. So my my wife, she was still, you know, had a bun in the oven, as they say, and, you know, I think I'd been there maybe so October yeah. October. She was born November. Yeah.
Anthony:So I got there October. She was born November 21. And so month and a half, two months if that, you know, we had a baby. And I'd already had some flights so that, you know, you get basically initial qualification. That's the basic stuff.
Anthony:And then you get to your base in the, at least the helicopter world, you get the mission qualification where you're you're shooting a minigun, the 50 cal pop up targets, all that cool stuff, you know? But, yeah, I had to put a pause on that for the, I guess, paternity leave is what they call that. Mhmm.
Bryan:Yeah. That's well, which is important though. Right? You gotta take that time.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. Yeah. 100%.
Bryan:Now did you find it difficult to turn off the warfighter in you and just be a normal person to date and love someone?
Anthony:I did. Yeah. It's you know, the I so what would bother me was, like, when I was putting, like, towards the end, you know, and, yeah, I think I put her and my daughter through three three or four deployments. I can't remember exactly. But, you know, just, you know, you you miss them, man.
Anthony:Like, I hate to say it. Like, there's no like, when you're not married and all that, you don't even think about it. Right? You don't like, man, I just go back and do whatever. Right?
Anthony:But, you know, buy stuff on Amazon while I'm here. It'll be there when I get back. But, know, now it's like, man, I got a family to get back to. And, you see that side of things. And, like, you know, my biggest fear were, like, know, guys would come home and, like, their kid wouldn't recognize them.
Anthony:Like, I I had that huge phobia of that. And Mhmm. You know, thank thank God that never happened. But, you you think about the bigger picture and and what's important in your life at that point. You know?
Bryan:Yeah. It definitely it changes things for sure. Like, I was fortunate enough well, fortunate and unfortunate. When I went on that tour my first tour in Kuwait flying over Iraq was in 2014 and Melissa and I had been married for a month and that was tough for sure. You know, adults We've can handle been together for a year and a half before that.
Bryan:You we were able to call home and all that stuff. So it was tough, but like you get through it. I can't imagine doing that with a with a kid though. Was the fortunate part for me was that I never had kids anytime I deployed, and I can't imagine doing that.
Anthony:Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't put in words like how just how much I miss my daughter and just Yeah. You know, that moment when you get home.
Anthony:Like, you know, people post these videos of kids running up to their dad, like like, that is a that is a moment you'll never forget. You know, never recorded or nothing like that, man. But, you know, just a beautiful moment that they they recognize and they miss their dad. Right?
Bryan:Yeah. No. Those videos, crush me, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Bryan:So you have a quote in the book by James R Ward, Office of Strategic Services, and I'm going to quote it partially here. Men, special operations is a mistress. Your wives will envy her because she will have your hearts. Your wives will be jealous of her because of the power to pull you away. Did you find this was true with Sherry and your relationship with special ops as a couple?
Anthony:Yeah. Because, you know, you you lived that life for for that long and, you know, you're basically this special operations squadron where, you know, your whole Yeah. The cool guy stuff. Right? The whole the zeal that comes with those moments.
Anthony:And, you know, like, at the end, you're like, man, like, I'm going away from my wife all the time. The 3AM phone calls all the time. The the TDYs half the year all the time training. You know, it'll definitely pull you you away from your your wife. And, like, it's very like, it's a very hard command to be in and and have a good marriage.
Anthony:I'll say that, you know? Mhmm. You see a lot of divorces, unfortunately. But I will say it's getting a lot better since some of these programs they've came out with and the counseling and all that. But, it's it's a job that that when I say when I signed up or when we signed up, they signed up for that too in that life, you know, and Yeah.
Anthony:Just the ops tempo, all that. Like, they're they're a big part of that. And, you know, she's my rock, my crush, you know, without my wife and daughter, like, I don't know where I'd be. I'd probably be in a ditch somewhere, honestly.
Bryan:I thought that myself many times.
Anthony:I can really tell you.
Bryan:So we've talked a little bit about coming home from deployments, you know, your fear that your daughter wouldn't recognize you, things like that. Another thing that you mentioned in the book is trying to jump back into normal routine that she'd been managing without you for months. It's a super common point of friction among returning troops after a deployment. Can you tell us about this and how you navigated it?
Anthony:Yeah. So, like, little things when you get back, like the you're like, hey. I'm gonna mow the yard. Last night, I'm gonna do it. I got it.
Anthony:Or, like, laundry or, like, whatever. We sort of help each other out in these our couples. Right? And, you know, I had to sort of say, okay. She's been doing this for, you know, four, six, whatever the case is.
Anthony:And, like, I'm gonna take a step back and and ask her where I could be helpful versus like me just, you know, doing this and that, especially with the kid getting warm back warmed up to your family is what it is is there's a honeymoon phase where everything's all great the first few days when you're back, and then there's a realization of that. You know? At least in my in my experience,
Bryan:it was like that. No. I think that's extremely common. And I think it's important for people to hear that because it's hard because you come home and you think like, finally, I'm home. Everything's good again.
Bryan:Everything is gonna be okay. And then, like, there's this friction because there's all these adjustments to be made and they've gotten used to you not being home. And like the truth is that's a good thing because what are they supposed to do? The whole time you're home, they're supposed to just like lay around and cry? No.
Bryan:They have to adjust and they have to figure out a way to make life work without you. But then you come home and now it's like time to reintegrate and it is really challenging. And I think it's a good thing for people to hear that and know like if they go through that, that that's normal.
Anthony:A 100%, yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. So we talked about this a little bit, but around the time that you had your daughter, you switched to the h h h 60 g Pave Hawk helicopter. For listeners, this is a heavily modified Black Hawk helicopter. Can you tell us about what makes it different and what its intended use is?
Anthony:Yeah. So the the Paypoc helicopter is I was in the the forty first Jolly Green or forty first Rescue Squad in the Jolly Greens. And sort of a little little history, you know, the Jolly Greens, they got that name from the Vietnam rescues where they would land these two helicopters in grass pettit fields. And long story short, it would look like two green footprint were there when they left, and they had already got the guy and rescued him. Right?
Anthony:So a lot of history there, a lot of, you know, like I said, this history and just a awesome community. And so I was on the Pave Hawk HH 60, which is like a Black Hawk helicopter, but there's all kinds of different, you know, defensive systems, radars, refueling probes, you know, hoist, all all this different, you know, stuff, two different weapon systems. And basically, you're there for, like, personal recovery. However, the the times I did it, what we would always usually train to CASSAVAC, which is more common.
Bryan:You know? Can you explain what a CASSAVAC is? Yeah. Yeah.
Anthony:So a CASSAVAC is like, okay. There's a, let's say there's a mass casualty, like an IED blast or something like that. Right? And, you know, they they call you in to rescue these guys, basically when there's when there there's a hot landing zone, stuff like that. And Yeah.
Anthony:You pull these guys out of these situations and get them back within the golden hour, which is what that means is, like, there's an hour to get them back to the operating table usually because there's a higher probability of them living. Yep. And, and, you know, in a few words, I can put that in. But, yeah, it's basically on somebody's worst day, you're you're the guy to to get them out of the situation and bring it back again, you know, sort of common theme here. Like, you know, you don't ever have to do this job, but if somebody's number caught, you wanna be the guy to go get them, you know, and Yeah.
Anthony:You know, so they could go see their family, you know, and it's a huge responsibility, you know, being trusted with someone, best friend's life. Right? And, you know, that was those guys in that squadron and gals, man, they were they were truly the best of me, man. And, like, very noble, very humble, very professional, like, probably the best people I ever met
Bryan:in my life. What made you decide to switch to the rescue aviation community?
Anthony:I always had this another common theme with me was, like, I always felt like I'd never done enough, man. Like, I you know, e even on gunships as, you know, as much in the fight as you are in that that aircraft, like, you know, to me, there was really nothing more noble than, like, the you know, pulling someone out saving their life, you know. You know, I I I get it now, especially, like, you don't have to do that job, but it happens and you wanna be the guy to to rescue them, man. And, like, to me, there's no more of a noble cause. Right?
Anthony:Like the, you know, John 15 thirst you know, John fifteen thirteen in the Bible, you know, I think Jesus says, greater love hath no man than this, and a man lay down his life for his friends.
Bryan:And Mhmm.
Anthony:That's sort of a big motto, you know, that others may live is is the motto in that community. And Mhmm. You know, the pararescueman, you you have the privilege in order to fly within the back of your helicopters is one of their very best in the world of what they do, you know.
Bryan:Yeah. Absolutely. I I've worked a little bit with we we call them SAR techs here, search and rescue technicians. And ours are not it's not a combat SAR capability. We don't have that in Canada, but they do all the search and rescue work within Canada domestically.
Bryan:And they're incredible people. They're just Oh, yeah. Amazing. That was actually my goal was before I was diagnosed was to go and fly search and rescue next. And it's just such an amazing noble job.
Bryan:So I can see why you were drawn to it.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. And those guys, man, they're the most like if you ever, like, meet those guys, they're the most humble, like, down to earth. Like, you you wouldn't know, man, that they're like, you know, some super ninja that's a paramedic. You know? You're like, man, like, guys are I mean, really are, you know, in my opinion, our nation's best.
Anthony:And, like, it was an honor to to to fly and work with those guys.
Bryan:You know? Yeah. We we had a tour with the PJs in Ali Al Salim in Kuwait. A little chance to sort of see who would come and get us if something went wrong. Yeah.
Bryan:They were amazing. It it was like
Anthony:Oh, yeah.
Bryan:I felt so much better afterwards just seeing, like, how well equipped they were, how well trained they were. They were all, like, super fit, amazing, impressive people, and, like, super humble. It was really cool.
Anthony:Yeah. And and that whole, like, the, you know, the special tactics squad, all those guys community, like, you know, they're all like that, man. Mhmm. If you look at those guys, they have the most pristine uniform when they're not, you know, when they're not on a, you know, you know, in combat type situations. But, yeah, just humble dudes, man, all that, you know.
Anthony:Mhmm.
Bryan:And I and I said PJ's there for the listeners. That's, para jumpers. They're the the rescue jumpers who go into combat zones. Correct. Yeah.
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Bryan:So how did your training go in the rescue aviation community? Yeah.
Anthony:It was, it was started off terrible. I you know, coming from a fixed wing aircraft, it's rare a guy, especially an enlisted guy, goes from a gunship to a, you know, a rescue helicopter. Right? Like, a fixed wing rotor wing. And if you look at a helicopter, like, if you've never been on one, you're like, you know, besides that one time, like, how does this thing fly?
Anthony:You know, the little things like, you know, the tail rotor, right? Like, how does that give me two and a half percent of my lift, stuff like that? And, you know, and at this point in time, you know, the air force had created a, I call it a Swiss army knife in the sky. And what I mean by that special missions aviators now a title. And it's like, you combined your arrow gunner with your load master and your flight engineer on these different airframes, the gunship, the CV 22, the PAV.
Anthony:And yeah, so you're doing all these different tasks and it was just so much knowledge. And I thought about it, I was like, man, I'd had to like study anything this hard, like I would be a doctor by now, you know? Like, it was just that level and depth of like little things like, hey, we're a drop of fuel. Like, get us all the way to combustion. You'd have to draw this system out.
Anthony:You know? Yep. All all all it's just that level of knowledge, you know? And then there's the gunnery, which is realistically probably 10 to 20% of that job, I'd say. And then then you have your, you know, alternate insert, extraction type, you know, divide like your, your rope ladder, your hoist, things like that.
Anthony:Right. Fast ropes. And you learn all this different stuff at once, but it, it was a beast, man. I, had a funny moment during my recommendation ride before my check ride. Long story short, we were in a mini gun pattern.
Anthony:I'd sit right on the whole time during my training, man. And like, this guy actually I'm, I'm, they were talking about this. He emailed me the other day, but I was sitting on the left side for the first time and I think I had like a burrito or something just didn't eat right. And, you know, and basically they teach you to like, you know, keep your skin up even with a gun malfunction. And I'm on the mini gun and like the rounds had, you know, I had so many in the road with the rounds that went down in the chute.
Anthony:So I'm hanging out in the helicopter, you know, with my mask on, you know, not getting my eyes on the train and stuff like that. And I'm getting nauseated, like super nauseated, long story short. Then I just basically just like, my man, I gotta puke, bro. And like, you know, I'm outside. I'm okay.
Anthony:I'm outside the helicopter. He had his door open in the back, you know, the cabin door. And I was like, bro, like that. It, like, goes back in. It, like, frags him out.
Anthony:Like, he didn't even say anything. He sort of leaves me. Goes, like, you know, one of those numbers. And I, you know, I knew I'd, you know, hooked that ride, but, felt it. Yeah.
Anthony:We we joke about it now, but, yeah, you know, and basically, even that, he was like, man, you had done this one step right during your Darming checklist, like, you know, you would have passed. But basically, he he got me better, man. He even with all that, man, he got me you know, worked with me and my my check ride went really well. You it was, like I said, the best day of my life is when I got the Dollar Green patch and the Spectre patch, man. That's a
Bryan:pretty huge accomplishment. Those are two really elite units, really elite organizations to be part of.
Anthony:Yeah. And I and I, you know, and I basically, I I wanted both of those. You know? And and then you asked sort of why I went to helicopters because to me, like, when you think traditional door gunner, right, where the term the whole nine yards comes from, like, like, Vietnam. Right?
Anthony:Like, I wanted to be a door like that gunner, you know, like that that person. You know, that it was about four or five years of my career approximately, and I I was so awesome to be
Bryan:in that unit, man. You said the whole nine yards. What's the connection there with door gunning?
Anthony:Yeah. I actually had a chief ask me this once. He was like, Darius, like, what's where's the term the whole nine yards come from? And I had, like, Google near me, you know, the talk computer. And basically, it's like in Vietnam when they had nine yards of ammunition left Oh.
Anthony:They're about to run out of ammunition. Yeah. So that's where the term the whole nine yards comes from, from the machine gunners.
Bryan:Yeah. Oh, wow. I never I I thought it was like a football term or something.
Anthony:That no. Yeah. I I didn't know that till he asked me. I had to look it up. You know, he's about to take my gunner car, but yeah.
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Anthony:It was a cool moment. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. So we're gonna get into a tough story. We're gonna talk about a Kazavak you took part in in East Africa. Yep. We're gonna talk about 06/08/2018.
Bryan:Al Shabaab militants attacked 40 US soft personnel and 800 partner nation forces with heavy machine gun fire and mortars. Your radio suddenly crackles to life with scramble, scramble, scramble. First of all, what was this day like for you up to this point? Where were you at the time?
Anthony:So so we'll just say East Africa. No. That's what I'm gonna say about that.
Bryan:But Oh, yeah. Sure.
Anthony:We were holding down yeah. We we were holding down seven days of a standby twenty four seven cast of act alert. Like, basically, we could get alerted anytime to go pick these guys up and get them out of a bad situation. So we, you know, day seven, you know, I'm at the talk, and I remember like, man, I'm exhausted. You know?
Anthony:Like, I'm gonna go sleep. Sleep when you can sleep. Eat when you can eat. And, you know, we end up taking off, man, right after the scramble. You know, that that moment right when I laid down, you know, scramble, scramble, scramble, run to the aircraft.
Anthony:And we take off more like a right hand bank. And there's a I could see round impacts, like the dirt 15 feet above the air. What it was was we were on the right hand bank and the left gunner had a runaway gun. Oh. And so, like, yeah, the steer notch on the 50 cal was, like, worn or something like that.
Anthony:And, you know, so I could see his impacts and then simultaneously I pulled the flare pins, which flares is what protects us from, you know, IR surface to air threats, you know, heat seeking threats. Right? And then, so that was going on. All this went in the same minute, and then I'm hearing broken communications with the j you know, the JTAC, which I can piece together what's a five line. You know?
Anthony:So we have a runaway gun. We have all of our flares jettisoned. I could literally feel the heat from them. Surprised I have my eyebrows left. And then, you know, there's this broken five line, you know, from the JTAC and the the guys on the ground.
Anthony:And so it's about a fifteen minute flight, man. There's there's literally a point where everything was so chaotic. I'm like, what the f is going on? Like, I literally said that over comms. Right?
Anthony:And, you know, so I take a second. I'm like, okay. Like, this is gonna happen. You know? Like, we're gonna get these guys.
Anthony:You know, we we get overhead and the JTAC, what it was was there was 12 bad guys in the tree line, Auschwab. And, we basically had to do about four gun patterns, you know, a racetrack type pattern, you know, all four guns on the target and that he had marked. Basically, we got eight out of 12 of them, you know, enough to suppress to that point to where we could land. So we were lead, we land first, and, you know, we land on this narrow dirt road. I remember that little bit of a brownout condition where the dust comes up and all that.
Anthony:You know, they had put one one American, you know, near the aux tanks, and they started giving him a trick yacht. I mean, then another green beret beside me, then a a partner nation guy who had you know, he got shot in the guts what happened to him. And, you know, we pitched pool, which, you know, we lifted off right and go right in back to the gun pattern. And, you know, Terrell's on the ground picking up their three cat alphas or two cat alphas at that point. And, basically, cat alpha means that, you know, you have to get these guys back for the golden hour I was talking about earlier.
Anthony:And Yeah. You know, so we do, I think, a few gun patterns there, and we get to the point where, okay, we gotta get this guy back. And we egress the area. We leave the area, then, you know, thank God, right when we left that, you know, they came behind us and then, you know, we were in a trail formation on the way back. And we land, you know, I get more more bullets from my 50 cal, get more gas, what we call hot gas, which the rotors are turning and I'm, you know, putting gas back in the helicopter.
Anthony:And then we take back off and then they had one more guy to pick up. And then basically, they they picked him up, and we did about multiple gun patterns on the same tree line. And I guess I heard about half half or more of my rounds at that point. You know? Basically, I keep those guys' heads down, man.
Anthony:And, you know, we egress, get back, and then the experienced gunner was like, hey, Dyer, you know, check the, really cool dude. That dude, awesome guy, man. He, said, hey. Check the aircraft for bullet holes, know, and I'm looking underneath the the belly, the tail, all that stuff. And I come around to the front and, you know, my aircraft commander, the pilot, you know, I could see on his face everything that happened and what happened when the American got back.
Anthony:The the one that was getting the trach out of me, he got on the operation table and he ended up, passing away, unfortunately. And yeah. You know? So I tell people, man, like, didn't know what sacrifice was to that day. You know, you're talking about someone's brother, someone's son, someone's friend.
Anthony:So yeah. Yeah. You know, that definitely 100% sticks with me. And, you know, it man, it it does hurt, man. You know?
Anthony:But at the same time, like, you know, that that was our nation's very best, you know, and and I was just proud to even, you know, be with those guys
Bryan:in that moment. It sounds like a really, really difficult day.
Anthony:Oh, I understand. Well, it was to this day, man, I think about it, it's just, you know, everything that goes wrong and, you know, went wrong in the first minute and then, you know, that, you know, and it's, you know, but at the end the day, like, you know, that that's our nation's best, that guy, you know? Mhmm. You know, the with, you know, with my children on it top of men, you know, he's a fifth special forces group. But those are our best, man.
Anthony:And not like I said, I didn't know what sacrifice was or service before self and to witness that, you know, it's forever edged in my heart.
Bryan:Yeah. I can believe that. It must be really challenging to be in the back of that helicopter to have those wounded comrades in the back there with you and to see all those sights and sounds and smells? Like, what's that like?
Anthony:Yeah. It's a it's a smell. And, you know, if you ever smell blood and, you know, some the stuff that comes with that and the the gunpowder, you you you never forget it. You know, I'll say that. And you know, when the dust settles and you get back and, you know, and I remember like, you know, they basically had to wash the cabin and stuff after something like that.
Anthony:And, you know, just that moment, man, it's just it hit me like a ton of bricks, you know? And this, you know, the mind is a very tricky thing too, to where you're like, if I'd have been there, like, you know, one minute earlier, five minute earlier, ten minute, like, you ask yourself that question. Like, would I would I would I have lived right? Like, you know, come to find out, like, you know, I'm at peace with it now and that he got hit direct with a mortar. So, like, basically, he said, right when he got on the operating table, like, he would have passed anyway, you know, so Mhmm.
Anthony:It was a yeah, sad day. But again, man, it's the best side of combat search and rescue than the worst side.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the upside is, like, you guys had so much going wrong that day, and you still went and prosecuted the mission. And, like, who knows how bad it could have been if you weren't there Oh, yeah. To like, how you guys said right away you took out eight eight out of 12 or so of the militants.
Bryan:Like?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. It was it was eight out of eight out of 12 guys. They get them and they gave us total there and, you know, in the end. And it was eight out of 12 on that tree line.
Anthony:And, you know, and there was basically, you could see our guys shooting with our, like, you know, even our partner nation discos, you know, their level of, like, a 50 cal type thing. Yep. You know, we're shooting with our 50 cal's, and it was just, you know, just giving that tree line hell, you know, just to just to be able to land to, like, to get those guys. You know? So it was definitely a a moment that I never thought I would I never thought I'd be doing close air support with a rescue helicopter with a 50 cal, which is Yeah.
Anthony:Very, very rare, you know. But it happened naturally on my first cast of back ever. So
Bryan:Yeah. We've mentioned that the motto of rescue is these things we do that others may live. You guys are coming into a a hot LZ, a hot landing zone. You say there's tracer fire all around the helicopter. You know, what's that like?
Bryan:How does that motto embodied by your crew's actions?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. So I remember, like, the the moment that it sort of hit me, like, we're we're on short final, basically, you're getting ready to land on this narrow road. Right? And I could still see, like, our guys shooting the disc of fire in the tree line and and a couple back and forth.
Anthony:Right? And, like, man, I was like, like, this could be it. You know, this, like, this is what I signed up for. This is that moment, you know, that that whole model, these things we do that others may live, you know, it's it definitely is sunny at 75 when you land in these hot LZs and get those guys, man. It's it's, you know, it's I realized what what I realized in those moments is the days where everything's going against you, man, your comms, your EPs, you know, that's the day where everybody that depends on you needs you to be the very best you could be, the very best aviator you could be.
Anthony:Mhmm. You know? Because if if if if it was sunny in '75 and it was easy, then everybody do it right.
Bryan:And That's right.
Anthony:That's where, like, you wanna be a part of that unit, and that's what I signed up for, and and it happened. How did you
Bryan:keep your composure? You've got wounded allies, wounded Americans on board. How do you keep focused and do your job during that time? Do you think it's just your training takes over? Or
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. And that you're sort of like you've been there so many times of training to where, like, the next thing you know, man, you're just react what's that saying? Reaction versus response? Like, you're you're you're doing everything you've trained a million times to do, and you realize there's a a moment where, like, this isn't foreign to me.
Anthony:Like, I've been here before. I've heard these comms before. You know? Like, this is this the real deal, you know? So you sort of turn that switch on and suppress the adrenaline as much as you can or something like that.
Anthony:And then, you know, you you do the best you can with with what you have, you know?
Bryan:Yeah. So as we said, when the dust settled, you learned that an American patient had not survived. And I think you said that was the the guy who had the tracheotomy. It was. You state in your book that you were never the same after that moment.
Bryan:Can you tell us about how this affected you and what was going through your head?
Anthony:Yeah. So I constantly thought about it, you know, and I remember there was things, man, like, that I can't even put in words really. Like, when you hear someone say, hey. Like, you know, in the camp that we were at, like, Hey, we need some OSB board to, to build a casket, you know? And, and there, and there's a moment to where like his brothers, you know, took him on the, the ramp of the one thirty to get him to, to like further up in Africa than to, to, know, back to America, the deceased body.
Anthony:Right. But yeah, you see this flag draped over this casket and these these green berets carrying this guy. I mean, that I'll never forget that image, you know, like, like truly our nation's best, you know, like the one in the 100 Heraclitus talks about, right? Like that guy, you know, and it it came at a cost, you know.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. It's I I know a lot of people who were at a lot of ramps ceremonies in Afghanistan, and that stuff stays with you. It's like the most clear moment of understanding what sacrifice really means. And I remember even one time in Canada when a fallen soldier comes home, they land in Trenton, Ontario, and then they take this main highway down to Toronto to the coroner's office with the body and the family is in a limousine.
Bryan:The the hearse comes through and there's a there's a convoy with police escort and the families in a limousine and stuff. And during Afghanistan, what they would do is the overpasses of the highway, people would line them with flags and signs and stuff to try to support the family and to show respect for the soldier coming through. I remember one time when I was like 22, 23, I was driving through that area and I noticed all these people in the overpasses and I I was like, what is going on here today? And all of a sudden I realized what it was and I just got so choked up. I was with a friend of mine, we pulled over.
Bryan:We went on to the overpass and waited too. And when the family came through, just like tears started coming. Oh, It's such a real thing to see somebody who's made that sacrifice beyond that journey.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. You know? And, you know, the service before self is one of the air force core values, and every branch has core values.
Anthony:And and I'll be honest, I I never knew what that word meant till that day, man. And that that guy serviced before himself. Right? That sacrifice that very tip of the spear that freedom is is, the price for that.
Bryan:Yep. So this mission earned the USAV's Jolly Green Rescue Mission of the Year award for 2018. What did that mean to you and your crew?
Anthony:So so that's a air force level award. Basically, the the most, notable rescue, you know, of the year of rescue mission. Basically, you get it from, you know, the the sec av. I got to see the sec. And all that, but it it was basically, it was like, I still thought about the fact, okay.
Anthony:You know, we saw the best side of that job, you know, and that others may live. We got to do that. And, you know, there is guys that get to go home and see their family, you know, because of that mission and and, you know, not just, you know, not my action, but our teammates, our team's actions. Right. And the team concept behind that.
Anthony:And it takes everybody, man, from being the bullet, you know, to get those guys home and then to always have that that somber reminder, you know, that, like, man, like, the price of freedom is definitely not free. And then one eagle, one American when he got back had passed away. So Mhmm. It was a very, very dull double edged sword, you know, and it hurts sometimes.
Bryan:Yeah. I believe that. I I can imagine that receiving an award for a mission where the outcome was not what you wanted must have been difficult.
Anthony:A 100%. Yeah. It was a hard thing to do, you know, and then but I look at it now and I'm like, man, like, this is all part of that journey. You know, our scars is what, you know, defines us, you know. Like, I used to ignore my scars, you know, and now I'm a embrace them and say that's a part of my aviation life.
Anthony:It's a part of who I am. Mhmm. You know, and I I that's another reason why I maybe wrote this story. I don't know what to to paint a picture to the rest of the world, like, you know, whether it's America or Canada, like, this is what goes on while people are sleeping. Right?
Anthony:Like, this Yeah. You know, this this calls for freedom.
Bryan:Yep. So eventually, you returned to gunships. After a slow tour in Iraq, you decided to retire. Can you tell us about what led to that decision?
Anthony:Yeah. So we did my last trip. Actually, it was on my twentieth anniversary, 07/18/2020. And, you know, I basically, we get done with this three or four month trip and there's this so slow and the whole sense of purpose, man, it was just gone, man. It was just hardly anything.
Anthony:I only think we shot maybe once, but like, I get back and I'm just, I hit the retirement button. And when I did that, like, I realized my whole sense of identity, my sense of purpose, my whole reason for being, you know, especially on a gunship, make sure those guys get home is gone. Mhmm. I dealt with that hard, man. Like, I feel hard.
Anthony:Like, what started as a, you know, I know don't if I mentioned it earlier, but a weekend drinking habit turned into a pint, you know, of hard liquor at night, at least just to go to sleep. And, you know, my wife gave me that ultimatum of, like, you know, me or the kid or the alcohol, and I I chose my family and, you know, which in turn, I got help with the, the ESOCOM, you know, psychiatrist there with a program and, you know, got help in prolonged exposure treatment. And, you know, I could say I'm a better man for that, making that decision. And, you know, she told me a 100 times to tell the story at least, you know, and I said no. And right.
Anthony:And when my last out processing appointment, you get your realization, you know, like I said earlier, you walk out that door and you realize there's not even a door handle on the way in to get back in. Mhmm. You know, symbolic to this machine keeps going on. And, know, I had to put it all behind me at that point and, like, realize this machine goes on, get over myself Yeah. Quit feeling sorry for myself.
Anthony:And, like, I talked to a preacher and he was like, you know, these things happen. Like, you know, I'd lost a lung at this point, which is not a factor in there with all this. But, like, he's like, you know, life circumstances can make you better or bitter. You know? And I chose better.
Anthony:And that that's where I am.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. It is that loss of identity. Can speak from personal experience is really, really challenging. I think everyone is gonna go through that who spends a sizable even even maybe if they even do a five year tour.
Bryan:But
Anthony:Oh, yeah.
Bryan:Anyone who spends a good chunk of their life in the military is leaves a hole when you leave. There you don't even realize how much of your identity is wrapped up around it until it's not there anymore. And all of a sudden, it's a big psychological blow to deal with losing that. And and suddenly you think, well, who am I now? Like, if I'm not that guy, who am I?
Bryan:You know? And you have to find where where else do you have identity in your life.
Anthony:Yeah. And it's it's there's little things too that, you know, like, go walking out of the building and reaching for my hat. Right? Like, just it was so so different for me because all I had known, like, we spent, like, half our adult life in this thing. Right?
Anthony:Like, it's
Bryan:Mhmm.
Anthony:It's crazy, you know? And then all of a sudden, it's just like a switch that got turned back off to like, man, I gotta be a civilian again. I gotta be a normal Joe, Average Joe. There's nothing wrong with that. What I will say when I was getting help, one of the things that the lady said to me, don't know if it is like, she's like, you know, what what what's your legacy now?
Anthony:She's like, okay, all that stuff's cool. You know? You know, filing a gunship and arrest you helicopter. That's cool. Know?
Anthony:And that was your legacy then, but what's your legacy now? You know? Mhmm. And the point she was making, I get it now. Like, you know, what's important, what's relevant now is is being the best husband I could be.
Anthony:That's my mission now, being the best father I could be. And like I said, I got caught a lot of different call sides, man, but my daughter called me dad. That was the best one, man. I mean that. You know?
Anthony:She's she's my pride and joy, so that's my mission now.
Bryan:Yeah. And and I'll be perfectly honest with you, that's where I found my identity again as well. It was in in being a a husband and a father and
Anthony:Oh, yeah.
Bryan:You know, just trying to be a good man and live up to that, what that means. So Oh, yeah. I'm glad you had that too.
Anthony:Thanks, brother.
Bryan:Now another mantra you have for yourself that relates to this time in your life is, how did I make humanity better today? Can you tell us about that?
Anthony:Yeah. So when I, you know, I was drinking real bad and when I decided to get help, when I was, know, I'm getting help later, you know, I I look in that mirror every day, like, it is a question that's either gonna be yes or no. Like, did I make humanity better today? And it's either yes. Like, I did something for fellow mans, fellow service members, fellow Americans, fellow fellow Canadians, whatever the case may be.
Anthony:And, you know, or or did I just sit on the sideline and and and not do anything, just think about myself, you know? And I realized with that, you know, comes a question, okay, did I did I break my promise about drinking, you know, today? So that accountability is it's a real thing. It's a surreal thing. If you ever if you're ever in that moment, the most, you know, honest conversation is the one I have with myself that, you know, that night.
Anthony:I'm glad I did it. So
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to read a couple powerful quotes from the book and then ask you a question. The first is, it's hard to hold on to hope and purity when good people endure unimaginable pain. And the second is, I drank to fall asleep, drank to be social, drank to escape, and sometimes I drank because I felt like I wanted to die.
Bryan:What do you think led to you being in this state?
Anthony:I would say that, like, the feeling sorry for myself did not help at all. You know? That that was dumb on my part. And then also, like, the identity, I I felt irrelevant, man. Like, I felt like everything that I had done, as soon as I walked out that door, and there's no doorknob, it's forgotten.
Anthony:Right? It's it's dust in the wind. And, you know, I realized, you know, I didn't I can't can I remember my great, great, great grandfather's name? Probably not. I can't.
Anthony:You know? And I just wondered, you know, one day, like, will my great, great, great grandson or granddaughter remember my name? You know? And, basically, I learned to live in the moment at that moment.
Bryan:You know what
Anthony:I mean? What's important is now, man. What what can I change at this moment, you know, to be better?
Bryan:Yeah. So we've kind of talked about drinking and finding your sobriety, but mentally speaking, how are you doing at this point?
Anthony:I'm doing doing really well. You know, I'd, I know I didn't do the meds thing when I was in, and I'll be honest, I I do meds once I I get out and use the the veterans affairs and all that. But I still got, you know, a psychologist there I could at a moment's notice. And I did continue help with a psychologist when I got out. And, you know, I'm a I feel good about that.
Anthony:I'm a better man for that. And it's just really, like, every now and then, it's just like a muscle. You gotta work it out, man. You gotta you gotta bleed the words on the page, you know? And I am a I will say take this moment to say this, that, you know, every veteran has a story, no matter how big or smart you think it may be.
Anthony:Like, I feel better personally on this platform writing it and getting it out there. And just like your your your podcast is an awesome platform for stuff like this. And, you know, if you have words in your heart, just just bleed them on a page and and tell the world, man. Because without these things, like, these stories die in the sand. And and I I refuse to let that happen.
Anthony:You know? Mhmm.
Bryan:Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned meds. I don't know why, but there's it's like another step that's hard. Like, the first step asking for help is really hard. Saying, I think I need to talk to somebody is really hard.
Bryan:And then admitting like, hey, I might need meds too. Like, that's really hard too for some reason. I was the same way. I was like, okay, therapy sure, I'm not touching meds. And I am I'm also medicated and I'm I'm glad I am.
Bryan:I needed that and that's okay. And maybe one day I won't need it anymore, but I don't know why there seems to be like a self imposed stigma on on going for that. But you know, it's not like I think we grew up with this image of like any kind of antidepressants turning you into kind of a zombie or Exactly. I was gonna say that. You know, like you're not gonna be yourself anymore.
Bryan:I didn't I didn't have that at all. I I just felt better.
Anthony:Yeah. I I I would say definitely. It took about two weeks, but they when they kicked in, definitely feel level and, like, you know, more clarity, more more Yeah. More desire to get up and do something in the morning, not hit the snooze button five times. All all the all those meds would help with that, you know, and I'm I'm glad I take them just like you said that, you know, like Mhmm.
Anthony:I couldn't imagine if if I didn't at this point, you know?
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Another thing you said in the book that I really liked, that I really related to rather, was like things like a car wash being daunting. Like, honestly, there was a point where I felt like mowing the lawn was this giant task. Doing the laundry felt like this huge thing that I can't do.
Bryan:And it sounds so silly, I think, from the outside looking in, but if you've been there, you get it. You know?
Anthony:Yeah. It was it was things like that. Like, Walmart would freak me out pretty bad. You know? Like, I don't know what it was.
Anthony:All the different people, all these different things. Like, it would just being sort of enclosed in that car wash, like, stuff like that. Like, it definitely messed with me, you know? Like, I didn't wanna do those. Mhmm.
Anthony:You know, now now I face them. You know? That's the difference now.
Bryan:Yeah. I can relate to the it's only this year with the help of occupational therapists that I started doing small grocery runs again because I don't know what it is. Like you said, I don't know if it's all the people. I think it's partly like I get overwhelmed if I can't find something, but it's just stuff that you, you know Oh, yeah. Triggers that stress response.
Bryan:Right? And you just gotta find a way to work through it, though. You can't let it control you forever.
Anthony:100%. It it was so bad to me to a point where, like, for whatever reason, I I can't really tell you why I would do this, but I would time myself to get to work. Yeah. You know? Like, how how dumb is it?
Anthony:Like, with a stopwatch. Right? Like and I'm just like, why am I doing this? Like, these little things like that, I just knew I wasn't me, you know, like Mhmm. You know, whether it was me putting a constraint on myself for all the timeline sort of things we dealt with all these years, you know?
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. And again, I just think these are important things to like you and I are almost just chatting now, but what was it like for you? What was it like for me? I think it's important because for anyway, for listeners who are wondering like, why are they having this conversation right now?
Bryan:It's it's really for the people out there who might be feeling the same way. This might not this part of this episode might not be for you. It might be for that person who is like getting really stressed out when they go to the grocery store and they can't figure out why or getting overwhelmed by simple tasks. Like, you know, if that's you again, same as the first episode, we'll put a link in for the Canadian Forces member assistance program. And you should think about why that's happening.
Bryan:Okay. So we're going to talk quickly about SIFMAP or the Canadian Forces member assistance program. This program is for regular force members, reserves who are on duty during an incident, and parents and siblings of CAF regular and reserve force members who are injured or who die while in service. The program provides direct access to telephone counseling services twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. From my own personal experience, you can call or use their online chat feature to make an appointment.
Bryan:They then set you up with a professional and I believe you get 10 free mental health sessions. For more details, I highly encourage you to Google CFMAP, that's C F M A P, and click on the canada.ca link. The beauty of this program is it's free and confidential, so no one in the CAF will know you used it, not your supervisor or chain of command, and not your doctor. I don't say that to encourage people hiding their conditions from their doctor. I personally think it's important to be open with your doctor about what you're going through, but if you're afraid to ask for help, it's a great way to dip your toes in the water confidentially.
Bryan:So how do you contact them? Listen closely everyone, take out your phone and save this number because you or someone you love may need it one day. The number is 60708. Again, that's 60708. And now on with the show.
Bryan:So you say something that was almost a breakthrough for me when it comes to big questions you chase in therapy, which is that seeking answers doesn't come with clear resolutions, only moments of clarity. Can you explain this?
Anthony:Yeah. So, you know, I asked the question, you know, why does God let, you know, bad things happen to good people? I still struggle struggle with that question, to be honest with you.
Bryan:I Of course.
Anthony:You know, if if somebody knows, please tell me. And I'm I'm still looking for that answer, you know. But at the same time, I realized that there is the argument where, like, God gives some of those battles to to his his toughest people. Right? And the ones that could handle it.
Anthony:And and basically what I realized is there is a silver lining, man. If you can get through this adversity and, you know, the whole title of Moonchild, like, you know, the to me, like, would be no light without some darkness. Right? There's a 100% illuminites and, you know, that's when the the moon burns the brightest, in my opinion, on those darkest nights, man. And that's that's the clarity right there.
Anthony:You know? Mhmm.
Bryan:Would you say that today you found peace?
Anthony:Yeah. I I would say I found peace, and I'm, you know, I'm just just like my biggest fear in the world, right, is, like, talking about this stuff with people. And here I am, you know, on the on this podcast writing this, you know, talking to you and the audience, and I feel like I face it now and and I'm content with it. And I feel better after telling it, to be honest with you.
Bryan:Yeah. Like, writing this book and the topics that you covered and talking about struggling, talking about drinking, like, are things that often can make someone feel pretty ashamed. It took a real level of vulnerability to write that. How did you get comfortable with that? Was that just that repetition of writing and things like that?
Bryan:Or
Anthony:Yeah. So what I would do, man, is every time I wanna pick up a bottle, man, it's cliche to say, I picked up a pen, you know, and, like, it it could be something as simple as a a, you know, a notepad near my nightstand. Right? And I would think about something, write it down, and then in the morning, wake up, and try to make sense out of all of this, you know, and then get it to a flow of, like, a a story. You
Bryan:know? Yeah. So we're coming to the end of the interview here. Before we close the show, can you remind our audience once again how to contact you for speaking engagements, collaborations, or the best way to buy your book?
Anthony:Yeah. So, the best way to contact me, directly for speaking engagements would be Anthonyp.Dyer@Gmail.com. And then as far as the the finding the book, you can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere they sell, books and and a trademarker media. If you just look that up with my name, you'll see a link to the book. And the roots and wings of
Bryan:a US air force combat special missions aviator. That's great. And what we'll do as well is send me the links and we'll put them in the show notes as well for our listeners to check out there on the website as well. Will do, bro. I appreciate that.
Bryan:Alright. So Anthony, that wraps up our two part chat for today. Honestly, man, this has been such a pleasure and an honor to connect with you to help share your story, and just to kind of I feel like we've formed some camaraderie here from some shared experiences, and I really enjoyed that. So thank you so much for being here today, and thank you for sharing your experiences with us.
Anthony:Thanks, brother. It's been it's been real, man. I wanted to to do this for a while, man. I'm glad we got to get up, Brian, and thanks for, you know, letting me use your platform to to get these words out. I truly appreciate it.
Bryan:It was a pleasure. Alright. That wraps up our two part chat with Anthony Dyer, retired United States Air Force aerial gunner and author of the book Moonchild. Now this past summer, something really cool happened. Captain John Livingston was making his way across the country with his family to move from Comox, BC to Greenwood, Nova Scotia.
Bryan:About halfway through that journey, as they passed through Manitoba, John decided to stop by my house to record in our studio to share his experiences in flight training as well as operationally flying the CH one forty nine Cormorant in the challenging environment of the Rocky Mountains. So tune in next week to hear that. You don't wanna miss it. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See
Intro:Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.
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