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Beyond The Message is a weekly podcast that dives deeper into the weekend’s teaching. Released after each Sunday service, it offers thoughtful conversation, added insight, and practical reflection to help our community process and apply what they heard. Whether you're revisiting the message or catching up, this podcast is designed to help you go deeper throughout the week.
Welcome to Beyond the Message, the podcast where we take the weekly teaching at Christ Community Chapel and we bring it into your week. Each week we sit down together as friends and we talk a little bit, we reflect, and we figure out how to live out what it is that we are learning. today, my name is Stacey DiNardo, and I'm joined today by Jimmy Kozy, Brooks Montgomery, and Ken Prabucki. So glad that you guys are here today. Very excited to be joining. Thanks, Brooks. Happy to be here. Appreciate that. We've been live for a couple weeks, so now we're back in the studio. Not live. Not live. That also means that it was made apparent a couple weeks ago that our Icebreakers kind of went away during those live episodes. So I think we do need to bring it back for today, even if it's just one here, one there, one everywhere. I came into the office this morning, and it's middle school games that's happening this week. So I'm walking through the halls and Pitbull's playing happens most mornings here. Most mornings it's a little different. Most. But Pitbull is 3:05, as they call him. And if you don't know that Pitbull is a musical artist, that he's a great artist, and I made the comment and I said. I was like, I actually really love Pipple, and people were very surprised at that. So I wanted to ask you guys, what is someone you like or a musical taste you have that would be very shocking or surprising to people? I don't know if I could shock anybody at this point. Yeah, you were listening to Christina Aguilera on like a run once or something, and that's shocking. Well, it's just a 90s. It was a 90s playlist. Well, I've got nobody to impress. You know, you're in a safe place. 90s playlist. It was a 90s playlist. She was on there. What am I supposed to do? Genie in a bottle. That's great. Gotta. I almost finished that lyric. Yeah, you will not too. And that will be for everybody's sake. Okay. I, I grew up on Southern gospel quartet music. Did you really? And I. I. The amount of gaithers, like City of Gold, Ernie Haas in signature Sound. I don't even know these. You're making up. Every. Every time I would go to one of these concerts, every single person would come up to me and go, you're bringing the average age down quite a bit. Because I was probably the only person you could bring a good, like, bass into the mix too, I bet. Or that was a dream. For a time. For a time. Have you ever sung in a quartet? Oh, only solos. Only solos. Only solos. He's a solo artist. Can't sing. I can't sing like Pitbull Brooks. Really? You listen like you're in the car and you're like, I'm gonna put on a good old solo. Two to three Sundays a month, we're listening to some southern gospel. Lydia, too? Oh, yeah. She's gotten into it. She likes it. Probably more so Kindness than anything. Okay, that's Lydia. blink twice if you're not okay with this. Okay. Ken, come on. I was making some guesses about Ken earlier. Yeah, I'm gonna give you rapid fire, right? I would pick Backstreet Boys. Timmy. Backstreet Boys over NSYNC any day of the week. I sing along to Adele. She's sometimes in my range. Oh, that's good. And I'm a huge fan of acapella. Having done acapella. Like, do you like pentatonix? Love pentatonix. I love pentatonics. Well, the early things. Yeah. They got out of there. They got out of their zone a little bit. They shouldn't do original songs. Have you ever sung in an acapella? 100%. I have. I was in a group in college. What was the name of the group? That's not important. Well, it seems important. That's not important. It seems we should have some real. We do have real things to talk about. Are you landing on. You don't really have anything that you don't share. I think you said we had to move on, so. Wow, that's an easy out. Okay, this is week three of More life, more wisdom. I blanked there for a minute where we're looking at different passages in Proverbs. So I'm gonna start by reading what that passage is. Each week we'll do that just to kind of recap. And then through. I'll talk through those points, and then we'll dialogue a little bit about what we're taking away from it and how we are learning. So this was Proverbs 21. And the passage reads, wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise. and Pastor Zach taught, and it was really interesting to think about and take apart this passage in the way that he was thinking about it in that. Really? This passage? Yes, it absolutely can. Could be about alcohol, but kind of also debunking that, like, alcohol in and of itself is bad and spoke about drunkenness. But that really at the heart of Proverbs 21, the reality is, is that point one was control is the actual issue. So, like, drunkenness involves giving up control. And that's actually the problem that disordered love and giving up control to it. And then secondly, that really change is the sign and. And meaning that when like, kind of how do you know that you've given up control to something and that there's changes that. So wine is a mocker, meaning normally you're not going to go mock somebody, but because you've given up control to wine, you're mocking or behaving differently. And then third, that the challenge is the path to the freedom. So, we are created to be led, and that the problem is sometimes that we're being led by something that we've given up control to that is not God. And therefore, you know, what does it look like to truly have that freedom? So, it was really good. There was a lot in it that was convicting was very challenging because again. And, I might hit a couple of these things too. Really. When we, you know, if you think about categories in your life that you can give up control to, it could be food, it could be work, anger, your kids are elevated, physical fitness, porn, sexuality, greed. I mean, the list could go on and on. And I. It's impossible really for any of us to say we don't struggle with any of those things. So to start things off, thought I would ask all of us around the table, what, when you just think of this, what are threats for us to give up control to that would take us over in that way. Jimmy, I'm going to start with you. Yeah. I think, I mean, And you can go down the list. I think that I can think of times at my life where I think the second point being change is the sign. You know, that. That really was insightful from my perspective, because I think as, you know, as you're in the first point and he's rattling off all these things that could control you, the list that you just went down, it's easy to sit there and be like, oh, that. That doesn't control me. That doesn't control me. Right. But I can look back at various times in my life where I know my behavior has changed negatively in pursuit of something on that list. Whether, you know, like, career, wanting to achieve, wanting, to make more money. you know, I think there's a lot of stuff like that. So I think for Me. The second point being changes, changes. The sign really helped me understand. Okay. It's easy to sit in a seat when things are pretty neutral and say, I don't feel like I'm struggling with any of those things right now. But I think, that's not true. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about that question of why. Why do I lose control? You know that. And I think oftentimes one of the things that's found for me is just even phone and media. Yeah, that's dungeon scrolling, Right? Like, yeah, sewering my times in the evening and not capitalizing on, Sewering is a good verb. That's right. But that's even just like the muck and the mess of. I. I often find myself losing control in those, areas, I think, because I want to escape, right? Yeah. And it could even be escaping the monotony, escaping whatever. it could be just the stress, responsibility. Like, you look at the list of ways in which we find and cling to things that we lose control. I think at the core of a lot of them are we want to escape. Right. We want to find a little bit of comfort, a little bit of peace, and we're buying into a lie. That's really saying that it'll be most found in this thing. Yeah. And it can be a lot. I mean, now that we're in the conversation, I can remember just recently a, time where this did happen where, this is a silly. This is a silly. A little bit vulnerable. But the Cavaliers were just in the playoffs, and this was one of the most infuriating basketball teams I've ever seen in my entire life. You did mention that a few times, Bob. Yeah. I guess my analogy was they're kind of like a toxic girlfriend that, you don't. You. You know, we don't need to go down that road. But I remember there was one game that they lost where I was. I was so frustrated that I was still frustrated the next day. Yeah. And, that for me was when I was like, why am I this. That's the whole behavior. The whole behavior thing. Is this the sign where I'm like, the fact that it's that control over. I'm still frustrated about James Harden. I might be frustrated about James Harden for the rest of my life. I don't know. Are you over it? No, I'm not. That guy's the worst. Get him out of here. but that was just. It was like, that's the sign. Like, what is going on? Why is this. It's a Silly example, but it shouldn't hook into me in that way. Yeah, I think, the list is longer than I wish it was. I have struggled for a long time with ambition and I think, ambition, power, you know, I'll tell people the only job description that really makes sense to the most sinful version of myself is boss of everything. And you know, one is that job open is that it's taken going for it. I like to put my cover letter in. And you know when it gets the ugliest is when other areas of my life are neglected and I spend my time, bending every ounce of willpower, time, energy on trying to achieve. Trying to achieve and whatever achieving looks like. And that, you know, I'd love to say that I left that at the curb when I changed careers to come here. I did not. that baggage travels. So, I know we'll talk. I m think we'll talk more about what it looks like to have accountability and for other people to speak into that. that matters a great deal to me because there are days increasingly when by God's grace and in the power of the Holy Spirit, I can self identify. And on the days that I can't, I need people around me that can. Yeah, it's. I think it's interesting just, you know, whether we're talking specifically drunkenness or if it's a metaphor, right? This idea that it is so easy to lose sight of the harm and destruction that comes from rejecting wisdom. Right. And drunkenness always ends in a hangover. Right. It's like there's this natural tendency where we can buy into this is going to be the source of peace. This is going to be the injection of comfort. This is going to be the satisfaction I'm hungering for. And the hangover, maybe metaphorically, maybe literally, is always coming. And to your point, maybe sometimes we don't have the eyes to see it in our own lives. So let's talk a little bit about, some of you have touched on it. I feel bad I didn't say anything about it. I'll touch on my own. I'll be plenty vulnerable about things that I'm a messing. But how do you know if you've given over? You already talked about Pitbull. I don't know how much more vulnerable you can be. or how do we know even just to lean into that metaphor, because I think I want us to get comfortable saying drunk, sober. Where are we at in this? How do we know if we are drunk versus sober when it comes to giving over control to something, you just talked about, Ken. Like, man, every once in a while I might be able to self identify. You might have. Or maybe Emily pointed out that you were still stuck doing over something. I don't know. She does point that out sometimes she does point that out. But, I know for me, I think that what became most convicting was probably during this point because it made me think about the number of times I've had my husband point out and say, wait, you're really going to spend more time investing in that right now and. Or spending more picking up your laptop again, doing that. I mean, even it, you know, I think what I would say is the, maybe the way to know whether somebody is drunk or sober in the way we're using that metaphor is, would be how you respond to the person saying, put, why do you have your laptop down? You know, or why are you still watching that? Or why are you still eating that? Or. Right. Because a drunk person can't be reasoned with or talked to. They're like. Or they get upset or they get. Is there, you know, wave it off. They don't give it any credence. Right. And that's why I, I mean, in this point, I think it, it is so, so important. Like, I, I don't think I self identify all the time very well if I'm. Cause I'm just doing my thing or doing, you know, whatever it might be. And it's, and not necessarily identifying that, oh, wait, something's become disordered. I'm out of balance in this area. And again, that can be like too much in elevation of your kids. Right. Like it can be in all sorts of physical fitness he mentioned. So like things that can be positive, things, healthy things can turn into still very disordered. Giving up control to things. Yeah. I think that's the flip side of what Zach, you know, he was speaking about how easy it is in some ways to make this passage about alcohol and only alcohol only when you don't touch the stuff. Yeah. Right. Because then it's not a problem. It is likewise easy to make a good thing a bigger thing than it ought to be and to cloak it as if not holiness then being a good dad, being a good husband. But the moment it becomes outsized. Right. When you're, again, when you're bending the day to day, when other things are losing to that, it becomes a real problem. Yeah. and I think when you notice you're expending so much energy into minimizing the control it has over you, right, to sort of say, no, no, no, I've got it. Yeah, this is a bad habit. This is a, you know, a surface level issue, but at least not xyz. Exactly. Yeah. You minimize, you compare, you justify. And all of a sudden, slowly, you know, you start drifting into a state where ironically, you are in a state where you have zero control and you're fooled into thinking that you've got it under control until your point, it blows up. Now, can I ask a real question? Because you said a little bit ago, Brooks, how, you know, you were talking about scrolling on your phone or whatever and escape or like, there is an element of, where is the line? Or there's a tension in that. Because I'm like, is it altogether bad to sit on your couch and relax for a few minutes? That's not bad in and of itself. Right? And we could say, oh, well, that's escaping. Or that's. But I mean, I think we can sit back, relax, do some things. But where do. How do you figure out or distinguish a line of going like, okay, wait, now this has crossed over into. And I mean, I guess. I guess Zach has laid out even a path to say, well, that changes that sign that, there's something within you that's acting, you know, out of order, or it's become so much more than it should be. you guys are all pastors. Give me some insight here. Come on. I think one moment that comes to mind immediately, at least, is when Lydia, my wife, is talking to me. Yeah, yeah. And my eyes are on my phone watching a pointless hockey game, reading a book, non important article. Are there any non pointless hockey games? Worried about James Harden over there, Jimmy. But when what is controlling me comes into contact, contact with something, that should take clear precedent and it doesn't. Right. That seems like a moment where, hey, of course, rest is good. Of course relaxing, enjoying a television show is good. Doing that together. But when it's taking precedence over another, my eyes are literally glued to it. I think that's a moment where I say, wait, this might be in another place. Yeah, Yeah. I think also if you can't be reason, like I said earlier, if you can't be reasoned with. Reasoned with. Yeah. If Lydia says, hey, can I have your attention? And you're like, no, I gotta watch this. The Penguins are playing. Penguins are playing. Can you just. Can we talk in a couple hours when the game is over? I think, you know, if you're around a drunk person and you try to have A conversation with them about their behavior. There's no point. There's no point. And I think if you find yourself in a position where I think that's the line between. I think maybe two lines between, what is just normal or healthy or, you know, like, sitting on the couch looking at your phone, whatever that might be, is number one. If you build your schedule around it to the point where it's. This is a centerpiece of my day. Oh, wow. Okay. I'm building toward, you know, as. Speaking honestly, as a, you know, as a dad of four younger kids, it can feel like that. It's like every day's a countdown at 8:30 when all four kids are in bed and we can just, you know, breathe for a second. And, then the other is if you can't be talked to about it, if, you know, or you're, to Brooks's point, letting other priorities that should be higher priorities slip. Like if I'm taking a nap and I hear all the kids yelling and screaming downstairs, and I'm like, well, that's Emily's problem. I'm, taking a nap right now. I think, really, to stretch the metaphor, if you want to enjoy a glass of comfort. Right. There's no prohibition on that. Right. But I like what you said. That's really good, though. you know, what you said about your kids, Jimmy. I know that I'm in trouble when my kids become an obstacle that stand between me and comfort or me and relaxation. Because in that moment, I actually stopped treating them like little people, and I stopped being a very good dad. Right. I expect them to just obey and do what I need them to do and get the heck out of my way so I can get to the thing I really want. And that means that you're drunk on comfort, you're drunk on rest, you're drunk on whatever. And it goes to what you said about structuring your day. It's like, just get out of my way. Get out of my way. I'll do what I need to do so I can get to the thing I really want for me that is convicting. And I can sometimes see that in real time. Oftentimes, in retrospect, that's what I was going to ask is. It's difficult to see that. It's hard to see that in real time. What's the diagnostic for? How do I know something is controlling me in that way? Whether it's my career, whether it's my. For me, it is frustration. Frustration that can go into anger and, I have found that, when things get in my way, there's a specific species of anger and frustration that I experience. And I don't know if I think this is probably holy spirit work, but. But it does feel differently. I just. I don't. I think in my. In my. In my best state, I don't know that I truly ever get angry at my kids. I can be disappointed, and I can want things, and I want to challenge and convict them. At my worst, I can be frustrated, disgusted, and angry at my kids. And when that's happening, it's because they're not giving me what I want or they're in the way of. Of what I want. It's not just my kids, but. But, I mean, that's a daily challenge for me. I think for me, it always. It usually comes in the form of other people, reminders that other people are pointing out things in me that they see. And again, whether it is how I'm spending my time or not, I think, Brooks, you made the point of on my phone or doing something when they're talking to me and they're pointing out, like, mom, are you even listening to me? Or something like that. And I'm like, oh, okay. You know, so I think that other people. And I think for each person, it's different. Cause I don't typically have that frustration, anger, but I know what you're talking about. Like, I can feel that for you, but I think it's. Yeah, it's different for different people. But, yeah, okay, so on that challenge is the path to freedom. How can we trade what threatens to control us for freedom in the spirit, if we remember. And this was so true and so good. Like, Zach made the point of just trying not to do something. Trying to get off your phone, not drink, not whatever it might be, is not going to be the way to freedom. And yet, you know, in Ephesians, Paul says, don't be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. And, so I think for us, we wanting that freedom in the spirit, are there practical ways we can orient ourselves heading into this next week, heading into our lives to get that? How can we point people to that? What does that look like? excuse me. I think a word that I've really been turning over a lot over the past probably year from being honest is surrender. And just being increasingly convicted that, surrender is not a passive term. specifically surrendering, to God and trusting him. And on the other side of surrender to him, are only good things. And so, a posture that I'm increasingly trying to adopt is in those moments when I am kind of dreaming and scheming, when my ambition is getting in the way, or when I feel like my kids are getting in the way, is just trying in real time, sometimes take a posture of surrender. Or at the beginning of my day, every aspect of my day, Lord, belongs to you. And life works best when you're in charge. And there will be things. So for me, it has to be more proactive because I'm still terrible in the moment. There will be things today that threaten to sit on the throne of my life that aren't you. Right. And I don't want that to happen. So in a sober moment, before I start my day, before I start drinking, so to speak, would you please. Would you please be preparing my heart to surrender to you? So in those moments, I'm not looking to anything else. And would you put people. And he has, in those moments, continue to put people in my life that will call me out when I've had too much to drink? Yeah, yeah. The community side's huge. I'd say. One, indulge me for a moment. Like this idea, this image came to my mind. A, fish is free to swim in water. If you put a fish on land, its freedom is lost. Right. Like this idea that freedom within a, design is where flourishing comes from. And so when I started thinking, okay, what does freedom look like? It's not just like strict autonomy to do whatever the heck I want, but freedom is saying it actually wouldn't be freedom to be led by the leader that was meant to be led by. And all throughout the New Testament, you look at Galatians 5, one of the fruit of the Spirit is saying, a life, you know, abiding in the person of Jesus Christ, grow in your affection of him. An evidence of that is self control. That's right. Yeah. And so really, one of the greatest signs, one of the greatest fruits of your rootedness in Christ is that self control ought to be practiced. Right. And so even saying I want to use my freedom to practice self control almost seems like they're at odds with one another. But in fact, that is exactly the waters in which God has designed us to live within. Yeah. I think the thing that comes to mind for me is there's a need for some, specific and key relationships. I think that for this to be effective, you need to seek out people and initiate relationship with them who are in your perception or, a stage ahead of you. In life, in career, and most importantly, in spiritual maturity. And then when they tell you something, you need to listen to it. That's right. Because the image I have in mind is, you know, the group of people who gets drunk all the time and they want to stop, but the only people they ever talk to is each other. And it's like the blind leading the blind and their friends aren't going to help them. You need people in your. That's why the church is really important, because it's full of people across generations who've been following Jesus for a long time. And I think you need to have relationships with people who, who are ahead of you spiritually. That's right, yeah. And it may be in other ways you want to grow, if you have ambition to grow in your career or what, you know, whatever the case may be, but especially in this case. But then you need to empower those people by listening when they point something out in you. Yeah, this might just be me, but I. So everything you guys said, I 100% agree with. Resonate. The community piece in particular, all of really good. I also was thinking about just the, the, the growth piece and going like, how does my affection actually grow for the Lord? How do I actually film feel more filled up? And I know I've experienced this even recently and funny that we talked about things like Pitbull, but I think the things that I listen to, the things that I watch do impact me. If I'm 100% of my time not spending time in God's word and not listening to things that are edifying and watching things that are pulling me and that have a lot of sin in them, they impact my. My intimacy and closeness with the Lord. So I think being filled with the spirit for me, and I'm sure there's others out there that are impacted in that same way is also just taking note of, like, what am I putting in. It's not to say you can't ever watch a show or do different things, but there is a level of how that can all impact you and fill you up or empty you out. So, yeah, I think your affection for the Lord grows the same way your affection grows for anybody else. If you spend time, if you learn about him, if you worship. That's right. It's just like, just like any other relationship, if you want your affection for the Lord to grow but you're not taking any steps to engage, then it's not. And as our affection does grow for him, we will experience more and more freedom. Not that there won't be other challenges, but we will experience more. I mean, Jesus is the only thing that when, the primary focus will then bring into perspective and bring the proper clarity to every other aspect of our life. When it's not Jesus, everything else gets disordered. Right. But if Jesus is my primary focus, then I become a better father. I don't bulldoze my kids. Right. I'm, better to my kids. And my ambition is healthy, not unhealthy. He will then kind of like the lens through which I view all those other things. Yeah. Well, this has been great. Thank you guys so much and really looking forward to future weeks. thanks so much. If you are joining us, for beyond the Message. So glad that you joined us. Before you leave, make sure you go ahead and like and subscribe so that next week you can get pinged with the next Beyond the Message. And in the meantime, make sure you check out other resources we have on our app on our website so that you can grow right where you're at. And we'll see you next week.