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Tom and Jonny are back for a duo episode after a month of guest interviews — Jonny has just about got the internet back after a house move and a camping trip.
They reflect on what the recent guest run has taught them, dig into Backyard Designers Club and the hooha it sparked, and talk through why design and engineering leadership is such a hard place to be right now.
Plus: Tom built a 3D chess game for his 5-year-old using Opus 5 and Three.js, and Jonny's Ooda gets a quiet YC moment.
Chapters
0:04 — Intro: Jonny's back (and has internet again)
3:44 — Reflections on a month of guest episodes
8:20 — The common thread: leaders who build
17:00 — AI raises the floor, not the ceiling — but the ceiling hasn't moved
21:35 — The AI slop problem: Hacker News, Substack's detector & LinkedIn's report button
22:08 — Ellipsis and the proof-of-work problem for human writing
26:10 — Ini's wireless-in-the-browser project: the opposite of slop
21:32 — Backyard Designers Club: craft, sound design and game-like delight
29:13 — How fast an original idea can be cloned
31:21 — The hoo-ha: exclusion, community claims, and what a community actually is
38:53 — Who's on Backyard Designers — and what it says about design's visible/invisible divide
41:35 — Engineering leadership burnout: Gergely Orosz's three reasons leaders are quitting
44:35 — Is design leadership 12 months behind engineering on the same trajectory?
51:57 — Tom's AI experiments: agent skill pack + a 3D underwater chess game
1:00:01 — Jonny's Ooda project gets a YC validation moment
1:00:42 — What's coming up: Build workshop, Wednesday event with Christine Røde (The Browser Company), Brighton in September
Useful Links
Backyard Designers Club — https://backyarddesigners.club
Broke Ass Designers — the commentary/reaction version - https://brokeass-designers.fly.dev/
Ellipsus — proof-of-work writing tool https://ellipsus.com/
Gergely Orosz (The Pragmatic Engineer) — engineering leadership trends post https://www.linkedin.com/posts/gergelyorosz_interesting-recent-trend-im-observing-share-7487619068187852800-ceQ2/
Ooda — Jonny's internal tool hosting project — https://ooda.run
Podcast feedback: podcast@nearfuture.works
Near Future Build Workshop (Aug 13th): https://nearfuture.works/build
Find us at https://nearfuture.works
Creators and Guests
What is Near Future Podcast?
A regular podcast covering design and AI from the founders of Near Future, a boutique AI consultancy focused on teams that care about craft. We cover both what we're seeing on the ground and industry trends, ways of working and occasional guests from the design world.
Jonny: Hi everyone, and welcome
to another episode of the Near
Future Podcast with Tom and Jonny.
I've been away for a couple of weeks.
I'm excited to get back into podcasting.
In fact, this is the first podcast we've
done, just Tom and I without a guest
for a few weeks now, over a month maybe.
Tom: Yeah, probably a month.
Jonny: yeah.
so let's see if just Tom and I as a,
podcast holds up still, or whether
everyone here is like, oh, we want
someone more interesting on, maybe
we can, we've got some good topics.
I think, we've got something
meaty to, talk about.
So we'll, we'll see, where we get to.
As always, if you have feedback on the
podcast or want to suggest a topic or
a guest or you'd like to be a guest
yourself, just email, podcast at
near Future works and, we're really
up for any feedback and ways to
improve as we build this media empire.
It's an empire, a, a mini
Empire, Mac Empire, dunno.
Okay, let's move on.
Tom: it.
Jonny: Over Smooth Jonny Smooth.
Tom: Before we jump in though,
Jonny, we've gotta touch on the, the
fact that you do have internet now.
this is a big step change that
was not true a few hours ago.
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: so if
Jonny: I dunno if you guys
have heard about the internet.
It's, pretty good.
I, yeah, backstory on this and the
reason why I haven't been, I wasn't
around for IN'S podcast the last episode.
and actually we recorded a
couple in advance so that we
could release one every week.
So you may not have noticed any of it,
but I was moving house for the last,
what feels like 15 years, but actually
it was only the last couple of weeks.
And then I went camping.
So I had, a very stressful house move
and then no internet on a campsite,
and now no internet for the last
week while we've been moving back in.
And I got the internet about an hour
ago, and it's like 500 meg and I, I
have so much internet, I dunno what to
do with myself, with all my internet.
I might just start downloading Torrance.
I don't know.
So, yeah, I, I'm excited to be back.
I haven't really read much of the internet
over the last two or three weeks either.
So, I think there's a couple of things
that I've noticed, but yeah, I, I feel
like two weeks without being on top of
AI news is, is basically a lifetime.
So consider me in the stone ages.
But yeah, so I excited to be back
on here and, continuing the pods.
Tom: Amazing.
it's great to have you back, Jonny.
I'm excited this conversation and,
just managing to squeeze it in before
the weekend, which is extra good.
my, my week, my few weeks have
been, fun, less, less camping and
house moving, but, it is the summer
holidays here in London, in England.
And so if you have kids of a certain
age, then you are familiar with the,
the fun adventure that is summer
camp schedules and running around
those and jumping back and forth.
And I need to wrap up a bit early today
to pick up a child from summer camp.
But anyway, enough about ad, enough
about life and admin, and parenting.
we're gonna move on.
So I thought it'd be fun to just
kick off with checking in on
how the podcast has been going.
as you said, Jonny, we've been, it's
been a month since our last duo episode.
Is that the right word for it?
Just the one with just the two of us.
And we've had a bunch of guests.
We had Abby from Deal Domingo,
from Finn, Holly and Josh and Wise
and, in, from Air Ops, a bunch of
really interesting conversations.
any thoughts or reflections
you've had on those since.
Jonny: Yeah, my first is a metaphor, which
was we started off a podcast together
and then we thought we should get some
guests on, and now suddenly we have not
only four guest interviews, but we've
got loads more lined up, really awesome
people, just so excited about them.
And so it feels indulgent now to
be doing one without guests, even
though, over half of our released
episodes are without guests.
I think it's been fascinating and it makes
you realise how diverse the landscape is
around, around attitudes to AI progress
through it, how people are seeing, how it
influences their teams, whether it's, you
know, super senior IC folks versus, uh,
like, Josh and Holly at Wise, who are,
who are leading hundreds of designers.
Uh, just all you get a real sense
of all of the different challenges.
I'll start with the first one,
Avi, and by the way, like everyone
should go back and listen to these
'cause they're good interviews.
But, Avi at Deal, just the most sort
of hardcore like builder, deciding
not to just build things for himself,
but then building for his team and
now deciding to build something that
he hopes will take over from Jira.
he is taking on just small vibe coding
pro projects, but just the most, token
burning AI pills, of all maybe, and maybe
reflective of deals culture and them
being just absolutely hardcore leaning
into AI across, across the business.
And, dropping Figma and all of that
kind of stuff is just, I thought that
was a really fascinating as a and a
good start for our, guest appearances.
How about you?
Tom: Yeah, totally.
it's funny, actually hearing you talk
about that was making me think about
the one theme that I think has been
true across all guests is, not just
a willingness, but an excitedness
lean in and your hands on the tools
and make things and try things out.
almost with, without necessarily needing
for it to be the new Jira in your
company, but just starting from a place
of, oh, we can just make things now.
We can just do things like,
let's try and see what happens.
And that seems to be a, seems
to have been a common thread.
And, of those conversations, even
though it's taken maybe a different
form for, a person who is primarily
a people manager or primarily,
hands-on, day-to-day as an individual
contributor, does change the shape a bit.
But there is this fundamental you need to
get your hands on and be trying to make
things, or not just trying to make things,
making things, in this new world to just
get a real feel for what's possible and
how it could impact your day or your work.
Jonny: Yeah, even our, leaders like
Holly and Josh and Avi are building
and build and, they're going home and
building and it just, you, have to
get your, hands on this technology and
this, everything about, what's happening
to, to the industry to really feel
confident that you know how to navigate
others through it as well as yourself.
Tom: Yeah.
Jonny: and the leverage that you get from
having, knowing a little bit more, being
a little bit more levelled up yourself,
in terms of whether it's actually just
so you can hire people that are more
appropriate or for your culture or
more AI build or something like that.
Tom: Definitely I do.
I do think there's, a couple
of, specifically that I'm,
I've been reflecting on.
One is the, that Josh said about, I
don't hire managers or general managers.
I, only hire managers who are
close to the tools and designers
of practise need to be hands on.
And then Domingo in the conversation
with Domingo, I think it was actually
you that said this, but it resonated for
the conversation, which is that taste
is earned through getting the reps in.
And you can't use AI to
take a shortcut with that.
those two things together feel
like a good temperature check on
all of these conversations where
it doesn't matter if you are,
established as a people leader
inside big organisations that
are working through this stuff.
You need to space and make time to
actually get hands on, actually make
things and remember that this is a, a,
a practise that you learn through doing,
not just through talking or pontificating
or, imagining because all of these things
are being reimagined right now live.
and so yeah, getting your hands on as
part of that, regardless of what your role
is, a really important theme right now.
Jonny: Yeah, I think there's something
counterintuitive about the promise
of AI being able to do a bunch of the
design for us, or, raises the floor.
I think Josh said design raises the
floor, doesn't raise the ceiling.
I think that's something that we've
always said as well in, in, in, in
client work and stuff like that.
but, there's something counterintuitive
like I might have said two years
ago, as AI comes for design, great,
this is gonna mean I can do better
design work while having spent less
time learning how to do design work.
and for, for us, as we've spent
the last five, 10 years doing some
design, but actually not necessarily
spending all of our time in the tools.
Great.
Now, now, now we don't have
to worry about relearning.
I now couldn't, I think I, I
think the opposite actually.
I think there is, there.
AI gives you no shortcut at all.
I think it gives you a shortcut
if you're not a designer to put
something together that's possible.
And that looks convincing.
I think if you're actually a designer,
the Overton window has moved so quickly
from, you know, if, if two years ago I'd
put together like a cool landing page with
loads of shaders and lots of animation,
stuff like that, people would be like,
oh, can't believe you did that yourself.
you're a double threat,
et cetera, et cetera.
And now, anyone can do that within reason.
And, you know, anyone can throw more
effects, can throw more, uh, cool stuff,
cool technology at their design work.
And so therefore that is ordinary now.
And actually it becomes, the
taste becomes about removal and
becomes about having an opinion.
And, that hasn't gone anywhere.
And it turns, out that ai, uh,
design is the opposite of cooks.
I think actually, I think, and I've
come to this myself also designing
things over the last six months and
looking at them and being like, that's
not better because I used AI to do it.
In fact, I feel like I have spent
just as long getting to something
that is better than average.
Average has moved, but
better than average.
so yeah, I think a lot of what Josh was
saying, especially, is it really resonates
with my personal experience of designing
in the era of, oh Lord 2026, and realising
that like, oh, there's no shortcut really.
Like Claude Design can put together a sort
of convincing mid-level design system,
or you can put together a mood board in
the chat, in the, open AI image models.
But now anyone can do that.
It has to be better
than that by definition.
So, anyway, I just,
disappeared into a rant.
Tom: No, I that a lot of what you're
saying resonates with me as well.
And it reminds me of this post I saw
going around the internet, which I
have not shared with you, but maybe
you saw it about, there's something on
Hacker News that was about, if I see an
AI generated image at the top of your
blog, post, I'll change the tab or I'll
close the tab or I'm not gonna read it.
but I think it speaks to a similar theme
of the level of what is average design is
reaching a point where we are becoming,
accustomed to it or attuned to
like this aesthetic quality of it,
which is almost repulsive a way.
repulsive is a, is an extreme word, but,
but it does carry this effect of I think
carrying a lot of the baggage of, oh, you
haven't, you must not thought about the
words in your piece if you're using an AI
generated image to summarise it, which I
think is maybe a little bit logically that
doesn't sit right with me, like it feels
a bit over the top to discount the written
content of a post because of an image.
But I totally understand why that
feeling exists, and I think it will
be fair to say that I've experienced
that as well of just getting to a page
and being like, oh, do I really, is it
really worth my time to read this based
Jonny: set, it, starts with a level of
sort of disrespect for the reader almost.
That you are like, I'm not gonna,
even though a lot of people that
write very well probably can't
image, make themselves, they
can't, they don't have that skill.
So it would make complete sense for
them to use a AI generated image.
So it's not necessarily a reflection
of the words, but straight away it's
I don't know.
Is this gonna be, is it
all gonna be like this?
if you haven't bothered to write
it, should I bother to read it?
Yeah.
All of that kind of thing.
I haven't, read this, article by
the way, filling in the blanks, but.
Tom: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it was actually written
a couple of years ago, so this was
at an earlier era of AI generated imagery.
but I, but yeah, I think it, I do find
that kind of fascinating and 'cause I
completely agree with you and I remember
us having a conversation maybe a year or
so ago about exactly this, where you can,
you don't have the time or capability to
make image assets for a post to accompany
or your thing that you've, your newsletter
or whatever it is that you're putting
out there, can you, like, how could you
augment that with some design direction
or art direction that you could have
consistent between your posts every week?
And it would look decent and wouldn't
take you forever to produce, but you
don't need to commission an illustrator
for your blog that has 10 readers.
and I feel like we've made me come full
circle of year ago or two years ago, that
was possibility that AI introduced and
now it's like actually doing more harm
to do that than, having nothing at all.
and yeah, the, all the advantages that
social media would train us into having
images to accompany posts that we're
sharing, on social networks is maybe
reverting to like actually having no
image at all, having a blank or, just a
very, scrappy sketch, that is very clearly
human, is doing more to create a sense of
authenticity and real value than polished
image that previously would've done a
lot of the work of communicating the
premium feel
Jonny: I,
Tom: of article.
Jonny: yeah, I wonder if it's,
I think it's also, it's not just
AI generated, it is you couldn't
move it enough away from the like,
mean image that is created by ai.
You couldn't even art direct it
enough to try and make it not look
like ai, because actually AI can
create images that looks not ai.
like it could create a sketchy looking
thing that looks like it was made by you,
or it could create something that was like
photographic and looked like it was shot
on a, fancy camera with a
gnarly film or whatever.
you could, take it there, but if
you haven't, if you've just typed in
man, sitting on a chair into chat,
BT and then taken that and not really
thought whether that was okay or not.
a bit like, I think we've broadly, I,
we've probably talked on this podcast
before about not feeling that comfortable
getting AI to write for you, but,
these models are really good as, as
editors and rubber ducks to just sort
of feedback like, does this make sense?
Like, is there something, does it flow?
Am I missing, could
this point be stronger?
that's really valuable, as a critic.
But if you're just like, can you write
me a blog post about SEO and then just
don't read it and just put it out,
then obviously that's, that's bad.
or even your agent just
publishes it without telling
you and puts your name under it.
Tom: Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
It's, it's fascinating and Substack
recently released, an AI detector feature.
I dunno if you saw that, Jonny.
I think you can go onto any
post and was this created by ai?
And it does some, some kind
of detection around that.
haven't tried it out yet.
Dunno how it works.
But, fascinating we're getting into
this world of like, what is, what was
fresh and new a year or two ago is
now already so old that it's, slipping
Jonny: Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom: think you're, the point you're
making, there is right of about using
that technology on its own and more about
how are you pushing or, reaching new
what's possible through using it
well, rather than just using it.
Jonny: Yeah.
Yeah.
A good artist has the same paints
as a bad artist, but the good
artist knows how to use them better.
Maybe that's a bad analogy.
I don't know.
There was, actually, this does
remind me of a tool that I saw.
In fact, one of my old investors,
Sarah, has invested in a company
called Ellipsis, which is like a
writing tool, but it's very anti ai.
it's like a, a writing thing
that, for writers that is
proudly, there's no AI in it.
And they, they've been trying to work
on a problem, which is how do you
prove that this wasn't AI written?
And they've released something, I
think this week, uh, I saw it just
this morning where they, where
you can demonstrate proof of work.
So you can show this piece of writing and
then you can say how long it was taken to
write, how many words it, you can see all
the edit history and things like that.
and that would be incr and, it's, I dunno
if it's on the blockchain, but it's, it's
in some way sort of, immutable, uh, so
that I can show you, I've written this
piece and it was written by me and there
was no AI used, and I have proof of that.
And that might be quite niche in a
way that the sort of need for that,
maybe an academic writing or something
like that would be really valuable.
But, but it's interesting that
people are working on this problem.
And I do think that there is, I, if
I know something has been created
by hand, I absolutely value it more.
I would, and I think that feeling will
only increase in me and increase in, in
the world generally as we see more and
more slop and, and actually, LinkedIn
now has a, this is an AI slot button.
You can report a poster as AI lop,
I think a couple of the other.
social platforms have done that as well.
So yeah, it would be, it'd be interesting
to, to see this kind of thing evolve,
this sort of re reaction against the,
the worst bits of, this technology.
Tom: Fascinating.
slight tangent, but just a close
loop on our podcast guests, hearing
you talk about that reminds me a
little bit of our conversation or
my conversation with I, ops who
built this, wireless in the browser.
And, a part of that conversation
was around how long she spent
getting the sound of rain, right?
for this specific kind
of Nigerian tin roof.
that was very, a very different rain
sound than you hear in the west.
and the level of detail that she went
into there was, incredibly impressive for
a part of the experience that I imagine
many people going to that site would
not necessarily have found themselves
tuned to the right radio station while
the rain mode on the tin roof.
but yeah, there is that level of, if
you can like, push your sort of detail
oriented attention to detail into
all these different directions and
angles, like what kind of interesting
craft question does that open up?
And I thought that was a really one,
which feels like a very, quite far away
from image generation and, writing.
But there is maybe a quality of,
you something that you're happy with
and you've built, how do you use
AI to push at the edges to really
exaggerate some of the details of that
image or that piece of text or that
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: to really bring it to life in
a way that does feel, human, but re
obviously requires AI to produce it and
get to that level in the first place.
Jonny: Yeah, I think Innis, that
project is a perfect example of this
new technology used as a tool to
build something that Inni couldn't
have built or would've taken a very
long time to build without, it.
But it doesn't at all take away
from the concept and the impact that
the, the project has it in itself.
And so therefore, it's the
opposite of slop, I would say.
I think it's like a perfect use
case for I'm gonna leverage this
technology to create something that
I can imagine, but I wouldn't have
been able to create otherwise and
doesn't feel derivative in any way.
It feels like something that
is very personal to her.
And, yeah.
long may stuff like that continue,
and I think we've, we're gonna
talk about another of those a bit
later, another project like that.
Tom: I think we should just jump in.
Jonny: let's move on.
Yeah.
Let's move on to it, shall we?
Yeah.
Tom: So tell us, so we, we've been, look,
we've been observing, seeing backyard
designers break out on the internet.
Backyard designers.club,
is a, a design community online.
Actually, how would you describe this?
It's like an online
sticker album of design
Jonny: it's, I think it's
like fantasy football.
I, for those people that know what
fantasy football is, it feels like that.
You like pick your team of designers and
then there's no, I don't think there's
any way to put, your team against another
team, but you have a budget of X Twitter
followers to use and each designer has a
following and you can spend ins on there.
I think actually, you can spend, uh,
your budget however you want, and
you put together a roster of seven
designers and, and then you can sort of
share that it's sort of like a social
sharing thing, but the, the, the website
itself is so completely delightful
as another example of, designers who
previously wouldn't have been able to
justify creating anything that looked
like this, being able to enhance and
create this like, extraordinary like
game-like rich experience on a website.
So when we talked about talking about
this, there's kind of two bits of it
that I think we planned on covering.
And one is just the craft of the actual
experience of the website itself.
And the other is the hoo-ha, to
use maybe a quite British phrase.
the sort of explosion of opinion
and positive and negative sentiment
around, around it afterwards.
Because this is a curated site where the
two creators, Tommy and Rid, who are very,
very well known designers in their own
right on Twitter, I'm not gonna call it X.
they have pulled from their network and
typically, and the currency is Twitter
followers, which in itself is interesting.
the implication being like, the
more Twitter followers you have, the
better a designer you are is, implied
by the mechanic on this website.
So, yeah, like, let, let's
start with the first one.
the, the craft.
And, I don't, let's not screen share
it, I suppose, 'cause like people can go
to it, people should just go to it and
play with it, rather than watching us.
But, but you should go and play with
it if you're watching us open it in
another tab, backyard Designers Club.
And then,
a another chap created, bro cast
designers as a reaction to it that we'll
get to, but sort similar experience.
Tom, like what, just interested
in your thoughts on the sort
of craft and playfulness of it.
Tom: Think it's, super.
I think you covered it well, but yeah.
Very delightful vi visual
polish visual detail.
I actually like the sound
design throughout all of it.
There's this, this sort of game-like
quality to it and it's very light
and bouncy and you feel like you are,
it feels like Pokemon or something.
Not that I have actually played
Pokemon Confession, but it's
still, it's it, feels fun and
Jonny: you call yourself a millennial
and you never play Pokemon God.
Tom: Yeah.
Out outed myself.
yeah, it's just a, a, really fun thing.
I think there's something about
the, aesthetic quality as well of
the characters in it as well, that
feels very fun and playful and also
expressive, but in a way that doesn't
feel like AI slop by any means.
And I think there's a lot of nice
animation motion, visual design,
sound design, a lot of really
nice playful qualities to the,
the quality of the experience.
And even in the commentary version, the
broadcast designers, which, super fun.
I think there's a lot of similar qualities
to how that was executed as well.
So for in terms of experience,
quality, great work all round,
Jonny: Is it.
Tom: sorry.
Jonny: No, you go.
You go.
Tom: but I think it does raise
some interesting questions about
the sort of community aspect
or the hoo-ha as you call it.
Jonny, do you wanna move on to that yet?
Or, I think you were maybe
gonna say something else
Jonny: one thing that I was
pondering was the speed with which
this clone basically came to be.
And this, the original idea
was truly an original thought.
I think, I dunno if it was rid or Tommy
or both of them that put this together and
the aesthetic and the like, art direction
of it all and making it feel like a sort
of, uh, I can't remember the genre of
video game, but like a cute sort of,
fun casual game, uh,
that, that you can play.
It really feels very game-like.
That was a truly original,
piece of design work.
And then presumably, I don't know if the
code is open source or something like
that, but you could then just, this, this
other guy just pointed his AI at it and
said, make another one, but make it really
dystopian and make everyone look sad
and probably didn't need too much more.
I mean, I'm sure there was more work
there than that, but what, once the
original thoughts has been had, how
quickly it can be sort of cloned and,
and, someone can create a satirical,
or a commentary version of it.
So like, what is, it's back to
like, where is the designer's
unique ability in all of this?
I think that that was a, a, a great
original piece of design that happened
that then as soon as it was put
out there, became everyone's, and
the, moat or the like defensibility
of that idea was very, very low.
It turns out, at least technically.
so yeah, it's, it is hard.
It's, it, the pressure to have an original
thought I think is like very high at the
moment because everything sort of looks
the same or like people just jump on these
trends, these design trends quite quickly.
So to try and find something
that an AI couldn't do basically,
or wouldn't have thought of.
yeah, I suppose that was my last
thought on the, the visuals of it.
I think it's really cool.
Yeah, sound design, people forget about
sound design I think is really good.
Tom: Yeah.
Jonny: of gamification of it and
they're iterating on it and bringing
in feedback and adding more like
Easter eggs and stuff like that.
So yeah.
Cool project.
Tom: Yeah.
Yeah.
actually before we go into the, however,
I think your point there is also
interesting on the role of design as of
the original concept versus design and
influence in shaping and evolving it.
Because I think the nature of
this as an experience is obviously
rooted in design community.
It features a lot of
internet famous designers.
So the material you're working with is
inherently shared amongst other people,
and then there's a lot of people who have
opinions about that, the authorship of
how that iterates and evolves, I dunno, an
interesting question of is that still the
work of one individual who's creating it?
Or is that then the sort of collective
work of a community of people who are all
invested in this craft and this space?
I dunno.
Interesting thought anyway.
Jonny: Is interesting.
Tom: who ha.
Tell us that.
Hoo-ha Jonny.
Jonny: I think, the, the only reason
probably that we know about this
project is because of the hoo-ha.
Whenever you put anything out that
puts some people above other people,
there are winners and losers.
and the implication of this and the fact
that you can't just add yourself to it
and you have to ask, some people would
say, beg, one of the creators to add you.
I think at least reading Twitter
and, and LinkedIn and things led a
lot of people to feel like it was
exclusionary and exclusive and, and,
didn't, they didn't feel
good about not being on it.
And, and, and I can understand that,
I think, uh, you know, but there
are many, many situations in which
there's an in-crowd and an outc crowd.
And it's fine to have exclusive clubs
and lists and, you know, if, if you're
building a SaaS company and you wanna
be in the top 10 ways to send an email
in 2026, and if you're not, then that's
sad and work harder, and maybe you
get there or pay the right person who
writes the list and then you get there.
these things exist.
for me, I was like, I'm not on it.
I don't think, I wouldn't expect to be.
I think it's fine for people to create
a list of their friends that are good
at design and even gamified it and,
and like create sort of a, a, way for
people to interact with it and, and
compare, compare their lists and things.
I think where it gets a little,
more difficult is when you then
claim that that's a community.
I have a, I have an example of a
website that I've built that sort
of, I mean, you can't pick your
own things, but it's got a list.
there's found up north.com,
uh, which is a list of founders,
uh, in the north of the uk.
And there is a community behind it
because there's meetups and events and
like a WhatsApp community where people
talk to each other and stuff like that.
And the list is just a list of
the people in the community.
This is basically just a list of people.
I would define a community as
like bringing people together to
share a conversation to help each
other out, and things like that.
So is it a community?
I would argue probably no, unless there
is something else happening behind the
scenes that is bringing that group of
people together, in which case fine.
like you're allowed to, you're allowed
to have a closed door, a closed room,
a group of people that are excellent
at what they do and are joined by the
fact that they're both designers and
well-known and how do you manage that
and how do you build each other up and
protect each other and stuff like that.
That's really feels very valuable.
So I think that that was
basically the heart of it.
And, so then this, this
broadcast designers one you can
sign up to and create your own
avatar and, and, be on there.
And that was a cool reaction to it.
But that's, that was my read of it anyway.
I think something that is an interesting
project and an interesting technical
project and something that gets a lot
of reaction on the internet, great.
If you are then claiming that you're
doing it because for the community, I
find that less convincing over to you.
Tom: Yeah, I think I, I agree with that.
That take, makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, I think it is a slight sidestep
from that, but I found it interesting.
I played with it a little bit, so
this is not an exhaustive reflection.
but I was interested by just
how many designers on there
were working or are working at
Versal or big software companies.
which just, I think is just interesting.
of design is through this lens of the most
successful software and tech companies.
and maybe that is the right
way to evaluate design today,
or sort product design today.
I just thought found that
quite an interesting lens.
There was fewer, I don't know
Debbie Millman, so I dunno
if she was even on there.
She might be on there, but there
was fewer people who of transcended
specific silos of design and, spent
a lot of time in these broader, or
varied flavours of design roles.
And it was very much people
who were deep in tech.
And that's not a critique of people
deep in tech, but more just if you're
trying to summarise a design, a
community of people in a discipline,
it's interesting that discipline is
constrained to this one corner of a craft.
Jonny: Yeah, I agree with you.
I, I mean, I think it's broadly a
reflection of the designers that
are extremely online on Twitter,
and, a lot of those I would imagine
are, Work for companies where it's
encouraged that they're, they see
it as a real value, a piece of piece
of value to, to have their staff
installing the virtues of the business
and being famous in their own right.
You know, it's a talent magnet,
all of that kind of stuff.
and, uh, and great free, free
marketing for, for the business.
and where, and there are a lot of
businesses that can't or don't want
to, or haven't thought to do that, or,
and, it's cyclical in the sense that
if I want to be big on the internet
or like, that is a part of a big part
of my persona, a big part of what I
want to do is be well known, then I'll
join a company where that's supported.
Uh, and, and that's cool because
working for a Google company,
accelerates my own, reach.
That sounds like cynical, but I think
it's actually okay to want to be, you
know, we're running a podcast, we hope
people, more people listen over time.
there'll be non-financial benefits
to us of running this, which is, you
know, network and meeting interesting
people and et cetera, et cetera.
So, you know, we're not, we're not
exactly, uh, not in that group or hoping
to be in that group, but, but I, I
almost feel like if it's a comm, if it's
anything, it's defined by this subset
of design, design, engineery type people
working for really forward thinking.
US tech companies that are,
growing like weeds and have been
thinking about developer advocacy
and things for a very long time.
Tom: Yeah.
Yeah, that's very true.
it's it makes me think of the world
of, I dunno, I feel like there's, there
was a, while we went through where
companies didn't want people to be as
public because then they would be more
likely to be poached by other companies.
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: I dunno if that's a, there's
a sea change around that now
where it's shifted or if, it's
the same as it's always, has been.
And if you have a big audience at
one of these companies, then you
are likely the target to be poached.
it works both ways.
Jonny: Yeah.
Or maybe they're just like, you know what?
They'll leave if they want to
anyway, so you might as well
just get, get them talking about
us for as long as we have them.
I dunno.
think also, I, also wonder if you are
known as the guy that works at that
company, I think there's quite a few
of the people I'm thinking of where
you are quite tied to the business
and like it might be quite sticky
to, I wanna stay there because they
support me, and what if the next thing
isn't, they're not as supportive.
Sort of golden handcuffs of we have
a symbiotic relationship, me and
my workplace where they let me in
work time, tweet a lot or something.
Tom: Yeah, totally.
cool.
I think this, just moving on a little
bit from this, I think there is of an
interesting question that this ties
to, or connects into, is the idea that
design output, design craft is the most
visible, tangible, obvious example of your
contribution as a designer, I think that
is less legible or visible for anyone who
is in a leadership role, people management
role, operations role, or potentially just
a, a design role that is less publicly
visible in the nature of your work.
I dunno what to really make of this,
but I, was, had been thinking about
this theme recently and listened
to the, podcast interview with Noam
Siegel, who, spoke to who, who led or
ran the AI in design or AI in product
survey, I guess it was annual survey.
And in this episode, he shares
back a bunch of his research
insights and themes synthesising
across the survey respondents.
I think there's, definitely a, a very
strong theme coming through that the, from
him that it's people who are the ones who
both exci excited, exhausted, hopeful,
and scared often at the same time.
And I think if you're able to channel
that energy into making something
visible that proves your value to the
world or to a company, would like to
think that's probably a, you have a
bit more agency in this world, but I
think if your value is less legible,
I guess it raises the question of
you still able to add or communicate
the same value in the same way?
Is this just a phase we're going through?
And then after that visibility and
legibility wears off a little bit, the
structures or systems or surroundings that
enable that will become more important
or will they never be more important?
And actually the only thing that is
important right now is an output that
is directly visible and clearly to the
bottom line of a business, very directly.
I don't know, but I
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: definitely these interesting
themes in, that sort of the
edges around the craft that I
think are interesting questions.
Jonny: Do you think that this is just
a continuation of, I feel like that's,
it's always been true that if you
end up being a designer at a company
where the product looks shit like,
the UI is old, it's some ratty old,
legacy system that you're working on.
And it's really important and
it's used by millions of people
or hundreds of thousands of
people and very important people.
But it's not gonna be a priority
to make it look cool anytime soon.
And the most important work is
elsewhere and you're stuck with it.
And so therefore your portfolio from a
visual point of view is underwhelming,
even though the work you're doing is good.
And that's where you end up with
people with like portfolios full
of people pointing at post-it notes
maybe, or, there's a lot of that in
other bad portfolios, but you get
stuck in a situation where like your
work doesn't stand for itself and
you have to explain it so much that
it's just different kind of work.
I feel like leadership work is
probably similar in that you're
like, my team did this and look
at all these beautiful things that
I didn't actually design myself.
I just, helped everyone to do
it and we moved these metrics.
but that's,
you can make the numbers really
big in your portfolio, but it's
not like a beautiful, u are.
So, you get, get stuck
in that trap as well.
And I feel like that's always been true.
Tom: Sure.
Yeah.
Jonny: But you also found this
really good, LinkedIn post from
gge, the pragmatic engineer with
engineering leadership trends.
please dig into it.
'cause like you found this and
I read it and was like, ah,
this is true of design as well.
But yeah, give us, the, tail.
Tom: Yeah, we will, share this in the
show notes, but gge, talked about, I'm
gonna, I'll read a few quotes, but the
general gist is he's been speaking with,
leaders like CTOs, heads of engineering at
lots of startups and mid-size companies,
and a lot of them are burning out or
leaving or just struggling in their roles.
And he wrote this post, which summarises
a few of the reasons, and I think
there were three in there that I think
were really particularly interesting.
I'm just gonna read out for
verbatim what he put in his post.
a few here are the few reasons.
Number one, realising the role
that they will hide is just a shit
one to do right now thanks to ai.
Often unrealistic expectations.
Number two, realise the company
they joined doesn't have a future
strategy to come out winning with ai.
Number three, realise that they will
not get the AI native experience.
They know they need to get to thrive
long term and the setup won't allow 'em
to get it, so it will be career suicide.
and so I think there's this squeeze
coming from top down pressure to do
more faster with less at higher quality.
but then there's this sort of industry,
and I think that's the reason why it's
a really difficult role right now.
But then I think there is this sort of
macro business context of businesses
are just much better set up to succeed
in this current moment than others.
to mention the challenges that come
up come with AI transformation.
So even if you can move your whole
organisation forward to this AI native
future, what does that mean for the
viability of your business or the
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: in?
And I think that does raise a lot of new
questions that weren't even there before.
So yeah, I think it's a fascinating post
and something I've been thinking myself
from conversations I've been having with
various design leaders over the last
year or two since going independent and
speaking with various people in various
companies and seeing go gay's post felt
oh yeah, like this has been,
surprised almost that this is new
because I feel like this has been
the case for the last year or two.
I'm less attached to engineering
leadership, but I feel like
that trend's been happening in
design, but maybe it hasn't.
Maybe I'm just, seeing it, seeing
the wave coming on the horizon
and it's not actually here yet.
but I'm curious what your take is, Jonny.
'cause I think when I shared this with
you yesterday, you mentioned how maybe
this is a, a more Silicon Valley trend,
that is starting now and will catch
up to design a year or two from now.
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: trend already here?
Are people already experiencing
this or is it's come?
What's your thought?
Jonny: I do think engineering teams
were put under this pressure a year ago,
Tom: a hundred
Jonny: Yeah, Al almost a year
ago it was, when was it, Opus
four came out or something.
So towards the end of summer and
then just before Christmas 2025 when
the coding models got really good,
it's just ratcheted up the pressure
on the engineering org to get AI
pilled or the engineering community.
And I suppose in that situation,
like if you're an engineering leader
and you're stuck in an organisation
that isn't, doesn't believe in that,
then it can feel, I, would imagine
really stressful to feel like you are.
Falling behind through no fault of your
own, but just because you're not given the
opportunities to, to upskill in this way.
And meanwhile, all of these
other people on the internet are
racing ahead and running a agent
fleets and et cetera, et cetera.
and I think that design then had the
start of that moment, sort of maybe Claude
desired actually like February time.
and suddenly everyone going, well,
are you even a designer if you're
not, designing with AI constantly.
and again, if you're in a design
organisation where you are drawing
rectangles in Figma or, or whatever it
is that you're doing, and you're looking
over at the people that are running at it
with, with their agents, again, like, the
longer I stay here, the further behind I
fall back, I can imagine being a feeling.
Then there'll probably be those
people that are like, the, like
block has gone all in and a
bunch of people are like, Nope.
I just, I I don't wanna do this at all.
I wanna work for a more normal
company that has a, a le a
more level head about this.
And might, still lean in, but over
the course of a couple of years rather
than Big Bang or may actually have a
culture, which is no AI at all, which
I think increasingly will be difficult.
But, yeah, but it seems like it's sort
of split, it does feel like it sort of
split people, and companies in these
sort of two directions potentially.
I dunno if this is a very tortured
analogy, but Brexit, I'm just
gonna relate it to Brexit.
because the, the, the, the
Brexit vote sort of cut through
party lines effectively.
There were, you know, people that
would call themselves on the left
and call themselves on the right that
voted for and against Brexit, against,
against their normal voting habit.
And I do wonder if like this extraordinary
technology coming in from the left
field suddenly, divides engineering
cultures and now design cultures and
probably cultures in lots of other parts
of a business, are you for or against?
This thing feels very binary.
Either you want to give over to
the agent overlords tomorrow, or
you never want to do it at all.
And the thrash that comes out of that,
if you're a leader and trying to work
out how to navigate all of this and work
out what the right answer's gonna be.
And this article says, you
know, they're quitting.
They're basically just like, they're,
leaving and taking breaks from work
because it seems like the only thing
to do now because you can't, you don't
wanna stay where you are and you,
it is hard to get a job in a real ai
pilled company without much evidence
that you can do that because you, your
previous company didn't allow you to.
So therefore, what do you do?
And you end up, stuck in the middle.
So, yeah, I, uh, I, think in a way we,
you know, we're like, doing something
in between, you know, we're working
with companies that are trying to work
this out and seeing it in other people.
I think we've seen it in, in, with,
clients that we've worked with.
But I can also definitely feel it myself,
like, what's the right answer here?
Do I go all in and go and
work for an AI pill company?
Yeah, so I think leadership
is in a hard place probably.
Tom: Yeah.
And I, feel like, just to build slightly
on what you just said there, I think
I have spoken with, and I could, I
imagine this being true of who are very
excited about what AI makes possible and
can to are totally bought into setting
their organisations up around AI the
near future or working toward that.
But I think that doesn't mean it's gonna
be a smooth transition to get there.
gonna be a lot of, not just about
the transformation aspect of it,
but the culture change, the, sort
of people and hiring process, the
operational and logistical workflows.
There's so many pieces to figure out a
leader that I think there's a lot of,
baggage that comes along with that.
So I almost feel like it's distinct from
whether you personally are interested or
not interested in ai, but more about how
does this company succeed a year from
now based on what my function is capable
of doing within this organisation to
make sure it is set up to be successful.
And that is a lot of conditionals,
that will orient around an outcome.
And that outcome might even
be questionable based on the
business you're in and what, how
capable it is as a standalone
business, I, I feel like Finn and
Intercom is probably the success story
of how of this working, but I imagine
when they were starting down the road
of making that, those investments in AI
and shifting the culture around that,
I imagine there were some early days
where there was a lot of existential
questions of is this, really like
we're making some radical investments.
Is this really gonna pay off?
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: clearly it is for them, at
least from the outside, it seems like
it's paying off very well for them.
Jonny: Yeah.
Tom: that's requires a very strong
leadership of what the future looks
like and really committing to that.
And I feel like a lot of companies,
I could imagine not having the,
guts to go through with that.
Jonny: For sure.
Yeah.
Or not wanting the short term pain.
Tom: Yeah.
Jonny: Or, it's incredibly de
decisive what Intercom did.
And I think in a vertical that was a
really obvious AI disruptor vertical.
but kudos amazing, that they
did it and did it so early.
And there are companies
even now that won't do that.
and not probably lots of
companies that, whereas it's
not the right decision as well.
But,
Tom: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jonny: in the meantime, if you
are in one of these organisations
and you get the exciting news, all
hands invite, what's this gonna be?
yeah, I can imagine the, the
fear, what's coming down the pipe.
Tom: Yeah, definitely.
Or the infamous Slack message.
Do you have a minute?
Jonny: Yeah.
yeah.
Tom: we'll
Jonny: Never send one of those people.
Never send one of those.
Tom: yeah.
anyway, 55 minutes.
We've been recording for a while.
Should we wrap this up,
Jonny: Let's wrap it up.
Tom: we have a few, lighter notes to,
finish with around our AI experiments.
I think we've shared a lot about
what we've been reflecting on
recently, even for a time where
we have been disconnected from the
news cycle, which feels, feels good.
I surprised you have as much to talk about
as we did it, actually, but Very good.
so a, a couple of things.
I've been AI experimenting with recently.
So I built, I've been building some agent
skills and I posted about that this week.
So we're preparing to run our build
workshop, which is next Thursday.
still a few spots left, so if you're
listening to this, an interesting
coming along and building your
own design tool, please do that
near future work slash build.
but part of that, part of that
process, we are sending out a
Claude or an agent skill pack, which
is initially focused on Claude.
And it basically helps distil or
has distilled a workshop process
that Jonny and I went through 18
months ago now when we were first
starting to run AI Builder Hack weeks.
and help people reflect on how they
work, where they get their energy,
what's draining for them, and then
identify opportunities for ways
AI can help in their work, and
then generate a bunch of ideas.
And we basically adapted that into
something that you talk through with ai,
what your week looks like, what your,
what you enjoy spending time doing.
And then it helps generate a list
of potential tools, design tools
you could build in half a day.
and the goal of that is really
just to give people a jumping off
point to join the workshop next
week with, a starting point with
a list of tools they could build.
it's quite handy actually as well
that you can, the skill is set up
to scope technical ideas down to
what is feasible within that time.
So it will some warning signs up
if you're getting too ambitious
with the technical scope or,
thing that you might be imagining.
but hopefully that can also help people
push toward more ambitious ideas.
and maybe
Jonny: Go.
Tom: if you're not super comfortable with
building with AI yet, it can help have
some more, here's, a MVP version of what
you are thinking about, and here's the
stretch goal if you have the time for it.
so I've been building that.
It's, fun.
And then I also, the other thing I've
been building this week was a 3D chess
game for my 5-year-old son who is, has no
interest or, awareness of chess at all.
but,
I think chess, I played chess when I
was a kid and I felt like there was some
things very rational and logical about it.
And I think my five year-old is.
Has a similar, brain.
but there's this quite a learning
journey and quite a, steep learning
journey, in learning how to play.
So I thought I would play around with
these, using, actually use Opus five.
I didn't use Fable for this.
Maybe I should have, of using,
three Js to build like this 3D
world that your thing can, exist in.
I think Andre Pathy posted something
he built recently about giving, feeding
in the first paragraph of Lord of the
Rings, and it built a world around that.
So it was
Jonny: Amazing.
Tom: to that, but applied to building
a 3D chess game for, people who were
figuring it out for the first time.
And, it was super fun.
There is like a, there's a reef
quest, which is this underwater
world where you play with these sea
creatures, basic chess moves, and then
there's a jungle and then a forest
that you can play it with as well.
And it has the names written,
engraved in the board.
And it's, I'd say the visual language is,
it's not backyard designers club level.
It's far more basic than that.
But, but it's, impressive what, you
can do with Opus five overnight.
Like it's, on its own.
Jonny: ship and iterate Tom, and let's,
I wanna be one of the chess pieces.
Tom: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe we can, work to that.
Jonny: Chess ass designers or, yeah.
that sounds awesome.
You need to put that on the internet
for me and for everyone listening.
and
Tom: will.
Maybe I'll throw it up
Jonny: of course, a after your son
has, road tested it a little bit.
Tom: How about you, Jonny?
Have you done any, AI
building experiments recently?
Jonny: So I in fact, have barely opened my
laptop over the last two or three weeks.
So much so that I opened up my
laptop today and had to re-log into
Claude, which is the first time
I've had to do that in a long time.
yeah, no, I'm truly blowing dust off
my building skills at the moment.
That said, uda, which I've
talked about on the pod before,
still pretty excited about it.
And Yc, y Combinator, big us, accelerator
put out their call for startups last
week, and one of the startup, one of the
sort of categories that they mentioned,
pretty much described UDA conceptually.
So, I don't know how much validation that
really is, but excited to keep pushing
on it and seeing, seeing what it can do.
uda by the way, if you haven't
listened to previous episodes, is
a way to host internal web widgets,
sites, apps, prototypes, whatever it
is you want to inside your company
without, uh, leaking them out.
And you can do all that through an agent.
It needs users.
So, you know, ood run
if you wanna sign up,
promote my stuff.
but yes, basically, and, and in fact, I
don't anticipate writing a lot of code
for the next two or three weeks either.
other than in our workshop next week,
hoping to, I may not write any, but
I'll be, I'll be involved in coding
projects, which I'm really excited about.
So, yeah, I can't wait to see the
next batch of design tools that
get created as we, as we guide
people through this process.
there's some pretty cool design tools out
there at the moment that I was playing
with one today, which I was like, oh, this
is, people are building awesome stuff.
So hopefully see some of that next week.
Tom: To go.
wait.
Jonny: And yes, 1, 1, 1 final plug for it.
as Tom mentioned, we'd love for you
to join near Future work slash build.
and if you wanna bring your
team, we can offer a discount.
So find us on our socials or
email us, or something like that.
And, we'll hook you up and yeah.
What else have we got coming up?
Do we need to shout out anything?
Tom: I don't think the, I'm running,
mostly working a free, evening AI and
design event on Wednesday evening.
very close to this workshop that
we're running on Thursday morning.
but they are actually two
separate things, but the one on
Wednesday is gonna be super fun.
we're, we have Christine Road from
the browser company coming in to talk
about how has made the daily summary
experience in the browser look and
AI generated slop.
So maybe that comes full circle
to the start of our episode.
Jonny: Feel like, it does.
Tom: super impressed with the work.
She shared it in, I shared it over her,
shoulder a few months ago and, loved the
story that she had around it as well of
being on holiday and then coming back
and then seeing the progress without
design and bringing design in and just
how much impact she was able to have.
very good work.
Excited to see that on Wednesday,
but Thursday is the thing
we're all gearing up for.
That is the design tools,
grand building experience.
and I'm excited for it.
Can't wait.
Jonny: Yep.
Yep.
Tom: hopefully we can get some people
to agree to share some of their tools
online and we can do a follow up episode
where we talk through some of them.
Jonny: And then we're doing a live one
of those in Brighton on in September.
And we have another,
couple of things going on that probably
can't talk about quite yet, but
listen out for them, and lots more
interesting guests on the pod coming up.
So do stick around and once again,
if you have any feedback, if you
want more of us or less of us or
different guests, then please do tell
us and we will adjust accordingly.
And with that, I think we should wrap.
Thanks Tom.
Tom: Jonny, thanks for
listening, everyone.
Jonny: Bye.