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PJ and Dr. Amir Eshel discuss how poetic thinking can help us better face contemporary crises as well as develop flourishing lives.
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
[pj_wehry]: hello and welcome to chasing leviathan i'm
here with dr mir chell professor of comparative
[pj_wehry]: literature at stanford university and today we're
talking about poetic thinking today uh tremendous book
[pj_wehry]: really excited to talk about it today
dr michelle thank you for coming on the
[pj_wehry]: show
[amir_eshel]: thank you for having me delight to
be here
[pj_wehry]: uh and so i was kind of
going through your book but before we get
[pj_wehry]: into it why this book what drove
you to write this
[amir_eshel]: well that's a great question because you
know writing this book was not like writing
[amir_eshel]: you know any other academic book or
you know academic paper i've written before it
[amir_eshel]: really came out of you know uncertainty
you know kind
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: of a big question you know what
am i doing when i waked me up
[amir_eshel]: in the morning and
[pj_wehry]: yah
[amir_eshel]: going to teach a class or trying
to write something which i find meaningful what
[amir_eshel]: is what is the mode in which
i'm thinking talking to my students trying to
[amir_eshel]: explain to them you know why they
should take you know a course in the
[amir_eshel]: humanities why should they read you know
both the classics and more contemporary writers these
[amir_eshel]: kinds of questions
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and you know granted i'm teaching in
the university so you know i thought before
[amir_eshel]: about the mission of the institution and
etcetera but i found self you know before
[amir_eshel]: starting to write this book kind of
wandering about my place in this larger landscape
[amir_eshel]: and the book is an attempt to
re on to this question you know what
[amir_eshel]: am i actually doing
[pj_wehry]: m gotcha um and it's kind of
interesting there is like a significant political bent
[pj_wehry]: at the beginning you talk about tyranny
and modern day tyranny can you speak to
[pj_wehry]: that a little bit
[amir_eshel]: yes absolutely absolutely so you know the
book was written with kind of the rise
[amir_eshel]: of authoritarian regimes around the world from
you know india to china to brazil to
[amir_eshel]: russia et cetera so really with a
question of freedom and
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: while i thought as i was right
in what it's fairly clear to us what
[amir_eshel]: makes you know political tyrannical regimes i
think we tend to ignore the fact that
[amir_eshel]: in other areas of our lives in
the so called free world we submit oursels
[amir_eshel]: it's to various forms of tyranny which
i find you know not exactly the same
[amir_eshel]: oppressive as you would find in places
like china or russia but still quite oppressive
[amir_eshel]: so
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: this kind of non freedom of the
opposite of freedom was very much on my
[amir_eshel]: mind while writing and i found it
to be also you know all around me
[amir_eshel]: at the heart of silicon valley in
a place allegedly committed to freedom to
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: boundless freedom i found you know new
forms of tyranny and new forms of i
[amir_eshel]: would even say you know slavery albeit
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: very different than what we term call
slavery in the historical context
[pj_wehry]: do you mind giving just a little
bit more concrete examples i mean you're talking
[pj_wehry]: about silicon valley so and i think
you mentioned at the end of the book
[pj_wehry]: you know you talk about technology in
general but what are some examples of those
[pj_wehry]: modern day tyranny in a place like
america
[amir_eshel]: you know i'll start you know with
my own children and with students
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know i see every day when
i'm teaching our connectedness to you know various
[amir_eshel]: hand held devi this is in the
way they structure our every day life from
[amir_eshel]: the moment
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: we wake up until the moment we
go to bed and very often you know
[amir_eshel]: while we're sleeping as well you know
that's kind
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: of the clearest example moving through you
know social media in the various ways in
[amir_eshel]: social media is not serving you know
the enhelsment of our social lives but rather
[amir_eshel]: forcing us to constantly react to other
people in various types of i would say
[amir_eshel]: even noise that is to me tyranny
and i would continue and say that
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know our subjugation to the cycle
of production and consumption is another form of
[amir_eshel]: tyranny now our obsessive need to know
always attain more and be in possession of
[amir_eshel]: more and then you know related to
it you know our subjugation to working you
[amir_eshel]: know evermore and being in this cycle
of constant constant work constant labor that's also
[amir_eshel]: for me a tyranny you know before
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: we continue again you know i'd like
to emphasize that this this
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: type of slavery is very different
[pj_wehry]: right
[amir_eshel]: then what we usually call slavery and
granted there you know countless people around the
[amir_eshel]: world
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: including you know in this country who
are subjected to serious it's essential daily you
[amir_eshel]: know trouble just making ends
[pj_wehry]: ye
[amir_eshel]: meet and you know working to you
know to maintain a bird survival so this
[amir_eshel]: is not what i have in mind
i very much care about people in the
[amir_eshel]: applied but with a kind of tyranny
i spoke about a few minutes ago
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: i mean really the kind of tyranny
you know you know affluence societies are suffering
[amir_eshel]: from
[pj_wehry]: uh even as you're talking there i
feel like there's a difference between and there
[pj_wehry]: is more freedom in in kind of
that brave new world approach but like some
[pj_wehry]: of what we're talking about the different
types of slavery you could talk about a
[pj_wehry]: brave new world versus nineteen eighty four
if that makes sense the idea of the
[pj_wehry]: oppressive authoritarian regime that forces you to
do things or the self inflicted creation of
[pj_wehry]: overwhelming addictive processes you know in something
like a brave new world would that be
[pj_wehry]: a good way maybe or would that
be illustrative what you're talking about
[amir_eshel]: i think i think it is i
think these are really two different things
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: but there are moments in which you
know the two intersect with each other
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: so you know the very forms of
kind of silence surveilance surveilance we are exposing
[amir_eshel]: ourselves to but we're also prompted to
enter in for example when hold hand held
[amir_eshel]: device
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: you know one of the artists i'm
dealing with in the book laura patras presented
[amir_eshel]: this beautifully in her work
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: she created art works kind of based
on the fact that we're keeping you know
[amir_eshel]: in our pockets or somewhere around us
you know those devices and although we keep
[amir_eshel]: them out of our own free will
nevertheless they have elements in them which keep
[amir_eshel]: you know an eye on us and
you know survey us in various ways so
[amir_eshel]: i think but it is important to
keep you know a difference between you know
[amir_eshel]: nineteen eighty four and the kind of
life you know we're living in the in
[amir_eshel]: the free world there are moments where
the two are right by each other and
[amir_eshel]: often we don't notice how we kind
of slip into forms of subjugation just by
[amir_eshel]: the sheer fact of participating in the
kind of modern life we live
[pj_wehry]: absolutely and i think that gets us
really into the meat of poetic thinking today
[pj_wehry]: right like and that next question can
you just talk a little bit too for
[pj_wehry]: our listeners what you mean by poetic
thinking because i know that we are going
[pj_wehry]: to have some people who are going
think of poetry which is part of it
[pj_wehry]: but that that kind of poesis going
back to kind of even that greek idea
[pj_wehry]: of creation and you see that as
an answer to this tyranny correct
[amir_eshel]: yes absolutely absolutely
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: so you know granted you know for
most of our
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: life as we are you know awake
and pursuing our various objectives in life if
[amir_eshel]: it's you work or family or you
know feeling all kinds of obligations you know
[amir_eshel]: we we have to maintain some kind
of logic in whatever we do we have
[amir_eshel]: to make sense
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: when we communicate with other people and
we want to you know fix all kinds
[amir_eshel]: of things you know be of plumbing
issues or when we talk to colleagues at
[amir_eshel]: work or even when we teach our
students you know thing about you know shakespeare
[amir_eshel]: or you know when the french evolution
took place you know we have to maintain
[amir_eshel]: certain elements of what we call logic
we have to make sense we have to
[amir_eshel]: keep product call which for which you
know we are accountable in terms of you
[amir_eshel]: know what is correct and what is
incorrect
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: what is related to historical events and
what not et cetera so i would i
[amir_eshel]: would
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: think about this entire realm of our
lives as the realm of logic of rigor
[amir_eshel]: the kind of reasonigue which we associate
typically with a scientific method where you know
[amir_eshel]: truth and the opposite of truth are
really essential to how we think and how
[amir_eshel]: we communicate with other people so this
is this is the one real of our
[amir_eshel]: lives in which something along the lines
of scientific thinking or logical thinking rigorous thinking
[amir_eshel]: you know that label for this rim
but i think that at the same time
[amir_eshel]: we have also another mode of thinking
another mode of engaging with the world in
[amir_eshel]: its various situations in which we're not
driven by logic we're not driven by making
[amir_eshel]: sense but we're still nevertheless think
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: we reflect we meditate consider forgive me
for using the word but i will for
[amir_eshel]: a moment we reconstruct we take kind
of solid ideas and we try to think
[amir_eshel]: about them differently consider them differently in
this will i would define as the poetic
[amir_eshel]: realm in which what drives us is
creativity the broadening of our
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: existing vocabularies to include new ways of
approaching the world being in the world interacting
[amir_eshel]: with the world again in its very
site tiens meet other human beings or even
[amir_eshel]: nature you
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: know poetic thinking for me is our
capacity you know to go for a walk
[amir_eshel]: and as we observe a tree or
a f or an animal to think about
[amir_eshel]: what it is which surrounds us in
ways which are not committed to the scientific
[amir_eshel]: product hole to the kind of rigorous
logical thinking we employ we're in when we
[amir_eshel]: are you know engaged in scientific pursuits
[pj_wehry]: and i think i understand why you
emphasize the nature being able to approach nature
[pj_wehry]: poetically because most of the time we
give nature over to science right so it's
[pj_wehry]: really valuable and i was making sure
i'm tracking me to hear you find it
[pj_wehry]: very valuable to be able approach everything
especially nature because it is normally something that
[pj_wehry]: is subsumed under science uld that be
would that be fair to say
[amir_eshel]: absolutely absolutely so obviously you know the
sciences give us you know you know incredible
[amir_eshel]: amounts of knowledge about our natural sara
leg and this knowledge is essential for our
[amir_eshel]: survival
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: at the same time i think nature
in various ways invites us to experience ourselves
[amir_eshel]: and what surrounds us in wages the
scientist can never capture and this engenders or
[amir_eshel]: brings us to paint a picture or
write a poem or a novel to create
[amir_eshel]: a sculpture around which we then coalesce
with other people and develop you know various
[amir_eshel]: forms of human life from religion to
education to conversation even love
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and i think it's crucial for us
to develop a sensitivity to that realm and
[amir_eshel]: to the limitations of what we take
to be in all the scientific method in
[amir_eshel]: the way it gives us access to
what surrounds us
[pj_wehry]: yeah obviously we you're taking about tyranny
there seems to be a political dimension that's
[pj_wehry]: generally where tyranny is found and you
see this creative dimension as kind of an
[pj_wehry]: answer to that would you say that
there's also a moral dimension and what does
[pj_wehry]: that look like how does that play
into this dynamic
[amir_eshel]: yeah well i think morality is really
at the heart of it because for me
[amir_eshel]: you know the question of ethics is
not just the question of right versus ra
[amir_eshel]: good versus evil morality is also the
realm in which we ask the question you
[amir_eshel]: know what consists of a good life
what is the good
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: life
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: and the good life or the question
how do i want to live my life
[amir_eshel]: how should we as a community you
know live our lives i think at the
[amir_eshel]: heart of what i call poetic thinking
i think that maintaining and cultivating and expanding
[amir_eshel]: the realm of our lives in which
we're not committed to logical thinking to systematic
[amir_eshel]: thinking to rigorous thinking has everything to
do with pursuing the good life and living
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: the good life i think if we
were to fully commit ourselves two logical thinking
[amir_eshel]: rigorous thinking scientific thinking you know practical
thinking in various ways we are bound to
[amir_eshel]: leave the opposite of the good life
we need a kind of a balance between
[amir_eshel]: the two is not the one or
the other we need to find and strike
[amir_eshel]: a balance between the two and i
think we live in a time in which
[amir_eshel]: often we lose it of this balance
we tend to commit larger portions of our
[amir_eshel]: lives to the one type of thinking
to the one type of engaging with what
[amir_eshel]: surrounds us
[pj_wehry]: and i think i've talked about this
on here before but i mean you mentioned
[pj_wehry]: one kind of tyranny being us being
caught up in the cycle of production and
[pj_wehry]: consumption and so for instance one day
i was just sitting in a conversation i'm
[pj_wehry]: talking and i just realized someone talked
about something being efficient it might have been
[pj_wehry]: me and i realized that in our
culture if you say something is efficient it's
[pj_wehry]: automatically good
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: and when you really think about that
it's like there's nothing efficient is just a
[pj_wehry]: description of something it doesn't give you
any there's nothing moral about efficiency right on
[pj_wehry]: and so that you know that comes
to mind and what led me to even
[pj_wehry]: ask the question is you're talking about
nature teaching us how we truly love right
[pj_wehry]: and so we talk about hat the
good life is i mean love does not
[pj_wehry]: feel efficient at least last time at
least in my experience of it right
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: did you have a specific example in
mind when you were talking about nature showing
[pj_wehry]: us about love
[amir_eshel]: you know
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: i can start with for me kind
of the most obvious point
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: which is you know my dog you
know my dog
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: for me is a part of the
natural world and
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: my relationship to my dog you know
is a relationship of love you know my
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: my dog doesn't need to
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: you know comply with
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: anything my dog doesn't need to i
know fix anything in the world you know
[amir_eshel]: my love my dog is just because
i love my dog i can talk about
[amir_eshel]: the
[pj_wehry]: yeh
[amir_eshel]: the garden i'm looking at you know
as we conduct this interview you know and
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know i look at the plants
in various parts or the tree right you
[amir_eshel]: know in front of me for the
sheer pleasure of its beauty
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: of the green
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know coming at me
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: i can of course you know consider
this to me or consider the plant all
[amir_eshel]: consider my dog you know using
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: various product calls
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: of about the scientific
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: method
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: but it will have nothing to do
with the kind of love i sense when
[amir_eshel]: i consider these things right outside
[pj_wehry]: yeah i have to admit my parents
have two shitzus and i'm not a fan
[pj_wehry]: of small dogs and there's part of
me that's always kind of annoyed with them
[pj_wehry]: but at the end of the day
when they come up to you and like
[pj_wehry]: they lick hand and they like look
at you or like like come up into
[pj_wehry]: your lap it is like you can't
i'm like okay like it's not so bad
[pj_wehry]: you know
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: you can't resist that and that's define
not there doesn't you know i'm sure you
[pj_wehry]: could go into the hormones available but
it doesn't describe the conscious experience of that
[pj_wehry]: sensation of those interactions
[amir_eshel]: fully agree fully agree and i think
if we if we pay attention and we
[amir_eshel]: then cultivate you know our ability to
make these experiences and to consider the way
[amir_eshel]: we reflect on that meditate on them
integrate them into our lives
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: i think we stand a chance to
kind of broaden the scope of freedom
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: we enjoy
[pj_wehry]: absolutely um so i'm going to ask
as we kind of move through the book
[pj_wehry]: we talked about poetic thinking and how
it's creativity at large but why poetry first
[pj_wehry]: why is that the first part of
the essay
[amir_eshel]: because typically we use language in order
to fix problems i know that
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: sounds very simplistic but i think you
know language emerged storically and developed historically as
[amir_eshel]: much as we can tell because it's
an incredibly powerful tool to ensure our survival
[amir_eshel]: and to as to communicate
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: with others and to fix you know
various problems we encounter in our lives and
[amir_eshel]: that's of course wonderful and it serves
you know in this capacity in various things
[amir_eshel]: you know we do now if we
talk with colleagues if we write a white
[amir_eshel]: paper to solve some issue if we
answer an email in which there's a problem
[amir_eshel]: et cetera et cetera if we write
a contract you know to insure o the
[amir_eshel]: legality of something if we protest i
know what the war in our crane all
[amir_eshel]: kinds of things you know language can
do and that's that's incredible but i think
[amir_eshel]: language as much as it is i
you know very important for these kinds of
[amir_eshel]: things language proves itself to be incredibly
beneficial life affirming you know life enhancing if
[amir_eshel]: it's not committed to what i call
before fixing problems it's
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: just there to produce a certain sound
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: think about you know rhyme think about
the ways in which you know poet we
[amir_eshel]: progress as producing you know through aliteration
and other forms just an incredible
[pj_wehry]: ye
[amir_eshel]: artistic or esthetic sensation and poetry i
think stands for this ability of language to
[amir_eshel]: give us this kind of pleasure we
use words and the words if you take
[amir_eshel]: them you know one one after the
other by themselves they all mean something but
[amir_eshel]: very often a line of poetry a
stanza don't really make sense in the way
[amir_eshel]: an email would make sense a speech
would make sense or when we say something
[amir_eshel]: to a colleague makes sense it makes
sense in a poetry in poetry words make
[amir_eshel]: sense poetically
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: by being that creative way to address
the world to inhabit the world to resonate
[amir_eshel]: with the world so poetry is maybe
the closest we get language and its various
[amir_eshel]: pragmatic practical uses but it also shows
us what the poetic in our language can
[amir_eshel]: be namely that ahti free domain which
i think we all have access to we
[amir_eshel]: all possess
[pj_wehry]: absolutely
[pj_wehry]: can you talk a little bit about
that a little bit more about that connection
[pj_wehry]: between poetic language and the good life
i think you touched on it a little
[pj_wehry]: bit there but i feel like there's
opening our eyes to the good life but
[pj_wehry]: it almost sounds like you're talking about
poetry being the good life and that's really
[pj_wehry]: fascinating to me
[amir_eshel]: ye i think poetry allows us to
make connections using language between elements we never
[amir_eshel]: connected before
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: if you think about metaphor metaphor brings
together parts of our lives in ways you
[amir_eshel]: know we never you know brought before
i mean take you know one of the
[amir_eshel]: most stale metaphors out there you know
the
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: evening of life you say
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: or the dawn of the day um
you know you bring you know the cycle
[amir_eshel]: of the day together with the cycle
of life and you
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: make a connection using language which you
never made before you say a human life
[amir_eshel]: has a beginning and an end like
the day has a beginning end i think
[amir_eshel]: these kinds of connections give us the
possibility to view our lives differently to go
[amir_eshel]: through our lives differently to to share
with other people our emotions in ways we
[amir_eshel]: were not able to do before and
that's something quite unique i think to to
[amir_eshel]: poetry as one for but also to
to literature you know as such i
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: recently read rachel casks trilogy so called
outline trilogy rachel cask a contemporary british novelist
[amir_eshel]: and the first part of this trilogy
is called outline and outside is already you
[amir_eshel]: know a metaphor so the protagonist of
the main character in this book presents human
[amir_eshel]: life you know using this notion of
an outline how do we meet how do
[amir_eshel]: we move from having an outline of
understanding human life to actually inhabit life as
[amir_eshel]: an outline think of life as something
we constantly chart constantly draft and change the
[amir_eshel]: draft as we go along this is
a beautiful metaphor for what consists of human
[amir_eshel]: life that makes a human life and
by
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: giving her book the title outline rachel
cask opens us the possibility to view our
[amir_eshel]: lives as kind of an ongoing outline
we are trying to get right
[pj_wehry]: m m yeah
[amir_eshel]: and i could go you know
[pj_wehry]: go ahead
[amir_eshel]: on
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: and on you know along on the
[pj_wehry]: no that's that's that's
[amir_eshel]: hm
[pj_wehry]: great so and that's well definitely put
rachel cask down below and her trilogy down
[pj_wehry]: below along with your book that's i'm
just trying to process that um and thinking
[pj_wehry]: about well of course there's the what
they call the problem of paraphrase and i
[pj_wehry]: don't want to kill her metaphor but
also just recognizing just a few of the
[pj_wehry]: lessons of the idea that we are
constantly revising ourself vs right and that's what
[pj_wehry]: a powerful notion and what a freeing
notion right that the good life is something
[pj_wehry]: that's in process right it's and i
think some people do get stuck with that
[pj_wehry]: idea that like if they can reach
a form of stasis that would be the
[pj_wehry]: good life and it's it's not and
that that's actually you know from a biological
[pj_wehry]: standpoint what you're aling about is death
[amir_eshel]: beautifully said p j i think look
there's so much freedom in releasing ourselves from
[amir_eshel]: the notion that life is a story
now that
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: we have kind of a clear arch
leading us from point eight to
[pj_wehry]: my
[amir_eshel]: the very last point that everything needs
to make sense and be stable
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and follow a rigid product all of
what constitutes the good life you know with
[amir_eshel]: capital you know t and capital g
and capital l
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: n here
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: she comes and she names the novel
outline of a sudden you realize
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: just by you know reflecting on the
title no it's not this big story about
[amir_eshel]: who we are and how we got
to be who we are and the great
[amir_eshel]: achievements you know we
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: may think about obituaries and how obituaries
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: often you know turn life into this
very orderly story no just by by choosing
[amir_eshel]: this type she says no no no
wait a second it's actually just an outline
[amir_eshel]: just just a draft just something very
ephemeral
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: think about it consider it free yourself
from the notion of crafting your life is
[amir_eshel]: this kind of rigid orderly you know
ultimately normative big story
[pj_wehry]: i needed to hear that i really
appreciate that we have a six week old
[pj_wehry]: baby right now and my life feels
just constantly about trying to create order out
[pj_wehry]: of chaos and just stepping back a
moment and enjoying the chaos of three
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: kids of six weeks old and um
even enjoying being tired which is a weird
[pj_wehry]: thing but waking up in the morning
and not being like oh i need to
[pj_wehry]: get all these things done but just
now get done what i need to get
[pj_wehry]: done but also just enjoying the process
in the stages um because you know i
[pj_wehry]: know these concepts i've heard these concepts
but one there's i need to be reminded
[pj_wehry]: but too what a beautiful way to
phrase it and to
[amir_eshel]: m
[pj_wehry]: think about
[amir_eshel]: h
[pj_wehry]: what really matters and it's so easy
to miss what's good about our lives right
[pj_wehry]: now because we're looking for that that
the ark to finish you know if that
[pj_wehry]: makes sense
[amir_eshel]: yeah that's that's beautifully said and you
know it brings us straight back to the
[amir_eshel]: notion of poetic thinking you know you
can you can read a i know what
[amir_eshel]: a philosophy book or a self
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: have help book you know kind of
trying to promote the notion you
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: know live your life as an outline
this is one
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: way to go and then you can
just read the title of a novel
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and all of the novel
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know under this tyle outline you
know
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you'll be doing a lot of thinking
i'm sure but it's a very different thinking
[amir_eshel]: compared with the kind of thinking you'll
do with you'll read this you know self
[amir_eshel]: help book where someone just takes you
through the vary as signet stages and you
[amir_eshel]: know kind of tells you orders you
how you should live your life
[pj_wehry]: so and we talk a little bit
about poetry there what does painting do that
[pj_wehry]: poetry doesn't what makes painting special
[amir_eshel]: oh
[pj_wehry]: in this in kind of this framework
you're creating
[amir_eshel]: i think for me painting like photography
by the way has the capacity
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: to you know confront us with an
image in a way which is its formative
[amir_eshel]: how we see ourselves how to see
other human we see other human beings how
[amir_eshel]: we see nature and everything basically pertaining
to our lives there's a there's a quality
[amir_eshel]: of the visual image transformative quality of
the visual image which i think can function
[amir_eshel]: and in fact does function in a
similar way to what we just described when
[amir_eshel]: we talked about rachel casks outline you
know the paintings i'm describing in the book
[amir_eshel]: i think have this capacity so in
the book you know there's a there's a
[amir_eshel]: large section dedicated to the german painter
garita and some of his paintings and for
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: me you know just seeing his paintings
those paintings i'm describing in the book was
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: a transformative event in my life and
this is something which i think goes back
[amir_eshel]: you know to really to biology and
physiognomy you know our ability to see an
[amir_eshel]: image and the kind of thinking engendered
by this moment of seeing i think has
[amir_eshel]: a transformative quality in terms of how
how we live our lives i'm trying to
[amir_eshel]: think of other examples you know as
i speak you know the most obvious one
[amir_eshel]: being the kind of images we sometimes
encounter when we open the newspaper
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and we see you know when it
comes to photo journalism you know we see
[amir_eshel]: you know victims of war for example
if we see you know destructed houses in
[amir_eshel]: v in the ukraine these days if
we
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: see the kind of devastation you know
flicted on you now cities in syria during
[amir_eshel]: the syrian civil war i think just
the visual power of such images has the
[amir_eshel]: capacity to a and gender whole variety
of thoughts going through our heads but also
[amir_eshel]: often to bring us to reflect on
our ability to do something to act in
[amir_eshel]: a way which may address what we
encounter in this in this visual image again
[amir_eshel]: you can read you know an article
about the war in the ukraine and the
[amir_eshel]: article can move you to tears but
i think that similarly on its own terms
[amir_eshel]: one photographic image coming to us from
the and ukraine can bring us to do
[amir_eshel]: a lot of thinking and potentially even
to change the way we act
[pj_wehry]: absolutely even as you talked earlier about
nature speaking to us in this creative way
[pj_wehry]: or else interacting with it creatively i
think about whatever what are the during
[amir_eshel]: oh
[pj_wehry]: forms of painting
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: you know landscape would be one right
that when someone paints a truly magnificent landscape
[pj_wehry]: it gives us that sense of the
sublime
[amir_eshel]: oh
[pj_wehry]: but even as you're talking about the
ukraine i think of you mentioned photography and
[pj_wehry]: it comes in painting and it comes
in photography how powerful the portrait is uh
[pj_wehry]: of seeing someone else's face in those
situations
[amir_eshel]: m
[pj_wehry]: i can't think of one off the
top of my head for the ukraine but
[pj_wehry]: i know even as a child
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: going through history class i mean probably
one the most famous photos of all time
[pj_wehry]: is the dust bowl photo of them
mother with the two kids and you know
[pj_wehry]: you can take pictures of great big
wind storms and stuff like that but the
[pj_wehry]: look that that the photographer managed to
catch is just all right it created it
[pj_wehry]: creates that moment that opening to see
[amir_eshel]: that's that's great that's great and and
as your speaking you know i was thinking
[amir_eshel]: about you know forgive me for taking
yet again
[pj_wehry]: no
[amir_eshel]: a very
[pj_wehry]: go
[amir_eshel]: very
[pj_wehry]: good
[amir_eshel]: stale example you know maybe
[pj_wehry]: that's
[amir_eshel]: the most
[pj_wehry]: their
[amir_eshel]: stale
[pj_wehry]: classics
[amir_eshel]: of work
[pj_wehry]: for reason
[amir_eshel]: you know entire books were written about
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: the smile of the mona lisa
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: why is she smiling
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: what is she smiling about you know
is she smiling or smirking
[pj_wehry]: ah
[amir_eshel]: at us looking at her is she
making fun of all of us tourists kind
[amir_eshel]: of pushing to take our little picture
of the famous
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: mona lisa you know does she know
in advance that will be doing that silly
[amir_eshel]: thing of you know standing in line
and kind of gathering around this one image
[amir_eshel]: to see just one thing namely you
know the beauty of her smile the timelessness
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: of that smile
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: but that's just you know
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: a stale example in
[pj_wehry]: i mean but that's a classic i
think everyone is familiar with that everyone has
[pj_wehry]: seen that picture and been like i
know everyone asks this but why is she
[pj_wehry]: doing that like it's if someone
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: was sitting next to me and was
making that smile like i'd give it fifteen
[pj_wehry]: minute tops before i was like what
is happening why are you doing that and
[pj_wehry]: so
[amir_eshel]: i go
[pj_wehry]: i mean that's the genius of de
vinci right
[amir_eshel]: they know and and it's
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: open it's not i mean there's no
way one can answer this question you know
[amir_eshel]: obviously you know we can back we
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: can go back
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: in time and ask leonardo tell us
what is she smiling at but we all
[amir_eshel]: in various ways you know ask ourselves
you know what's going on
[pj_wehry]: yes and so i ope that creative
space it opens would you say it's opening
[pj_wehry]: inside us or do you think that
uh dodo you find the value of creative
[pj_wehry]: thinking and of art work in what
it cree it's in the viewer or do
[pj_wehry]: you think how do you view that
kind of relationship between the person interpreting and
[pj_wehry]: the thing being interpreted if i could
put it that craftily i realize there's some
[pj_wehry]: back and forth yeah
[amir_eshel]: sure sure sure so i think you
know it starts of course you know with
[amir_eshel]: the creator with the person you know
creating you know in lenado's case you know
[amir_eshel]: this image so there's there's some thinking
going on there you know starting from the
[amir_eshel]: basic fact that you make some choices
as an artist now
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: she will have that smile and you
have to make sure that you render this
[amir_eshel]: smile no visible noticeable
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and then of course there's the thinking
which occurs at the moment in which we
[amir_eshel]: as individuals you know encounter the art
work and ask ourselves individually you know what's
[amir_eshel]: going on i mean what is it
that we're seeing who is she why she's
[amir_eshel]: smiling and so on but then of
course there's this moment in which we look
[amir_eshel]: around us and we see that other
people are asking similar questions or just observing
[amir_eshel]: the image and we start talking with
them
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and this conversation becomes that space of
reflection you know from the individual to the
[amir_eshel]: community and for me that space of
reflection is really important because
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know it's one thing if reflection
occurs around you know lionadosmonalisa it's a whole
[amir_eshel]: different thing when reflection and communal conversation
emerges around going back to the example we
[amir_eshel]: gave before for to journalism in which
an image comes at us and we tell
[amir_eshel]: each other did you see that incredible
image of you know
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: you know ucranorefugs arriving in europe seeking
refuge or you see
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: the picture of that victim after this
torrendous bombing
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: what can we do about it et
cetera et cetera so this is this is
[amir_eshel]: the space of reflection i mean when
i invoke this notion in the book
[pj_wehry]: m right were talking a little bit
with the mona lisa about tourists congregating around
[pj_wehry]: it and it reminds me of how
you talk about with sculpture how it's tied
[pj_wehry]: to the landscape to the cities cape
can you talk a little bit about how
[pj_wehry]: context and particularly these different kinds of
if i can say scapes these landscapes these
[pj_wehry]: city scapes
[amir_eshel]: m
[pj_wehry]: um uh in form and are in
for ormed by the by sculpture
[amir_eshel]: yeah that's a that's a great question
thank you for that p g so you
[amir_eshel]: know a lot of the examples i
bring in the book are examples you know
[amir_eshel]: from sculptures placed in germany and germany
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: given its know throughout history has lots
of public spaces
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: which offer themselves for artistic production artistic
reaction so if you take you know some
[amir_eshel]: of the sculptures i discuss you know
in berlin you see how
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: places in which you know momentous historical
events took place in berlin such as close
[amir_eshel]: to the ristayouknow the famous german parliament
in places which stand for some of the
[amir_eshel]: darkest moments in human history
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: by placing a sculpture there become spaces
of communal conversation and communal reflection so if
[amir_eshel]: you if you ride outside the riestaginplace
memorial for the sintiandwoma murdered during the second
[amir_eshel]: world war you create such a space
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: of reflection not just commemoration but reflection
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and if you take you know the
famous holocosmemorial in bowling that would be another
[amir_eshel]: example in which a city known for
its dark history side through a civic process
[amir_eshel]: to create
[pj_wehry]: hm
[amir_eshel]: those spaces in which people can come
together and reflect both on the past and
[amir_eshel]: history but also consider together how they
want to live their lives as a political
[amir_eshel]: community in the future in the united
states you know famously there as of course
[amir_eshel]: the vina war memorial in washing and
they see which i think offers a similar
[amir_eshel]: space you know people go there in
order to you know remember and commemorate the
[amir_eshel]: fallen and d n the horrors
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: of war but i think you can
also go to the memorial and observe this
[amir_eshel]: wonderful art work wonderful and also deeply
moving and disturbing
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: outwork as a way to consider how
are we living our lives as a community
[amir_eshel]: what kind of values do we have
as a community what could we possibly do
[amir_eshel]: to prevent you know similar historical events
from taking place in the future so these
[amir_eshel]: kinds of sites i think invite both
individual and communal reflection deliberation even meditation when
[amir_eshel]: we encounter them and they are very
powerful i think we
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: honestly honestly you know i think we
need more of them
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: especially you know in american
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: cities we need more places you know
in prominent places in a city where people
[amir_eshel]: can come together and consider a moment
in this country's history
[pj_wehry]: hum you mentioned remembrance you've mentioned history
a little bit and it's a media mediately
[pj_wehry]: apparent to me when i think about
remembrance and history how we can use that
[pj_wehry]: to problems what role does remembrance play
in the creation obviously you have tied it
[pj_wehry]: to reflection what role does remembrance play
in the creative mode of thinking
[amir_eshel]: yeah you know that's a that's great
question and also a tough one
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: because often you know the answer is
not that clear
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: i'm writing this book trying trying to
write this these days you know a new
[amir_eshel]: book and you know one of them
one of the places i'm reflecting on thinking
[amir_eshel]: a lot about as i am writing
this book is this this place in which
[amir_eshel]: george floyd you know was was murdered
openly on the suit and trying to reflect
[amir_eshel]: about the various ways in which the
community is trying to you know both commemorate
[amir_eshel]: the event but also maintain a certain
space in city for people to come together
[amir_eshel]: and reflect on what happened and so
i think what what makes these kinds of
[amir_eshel]: locations you know so potent and so
important is to try as much as possible
[amir_eshel]: not to prescribe
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know the meaning of this place
not to determine in advance the way we
[amir_eshel]: make sense of them but water to
leave as much as possible the space and
[amir_eshel]: modes of commemoration open for various people
to experience them you know on their own
[amir_eshel]: or using their own vocabulary i think
for me poetic thinking has a lot to
[amir_eshel]: do with you know maintaining you know
freedom on the side of the viewer on
[amir_eshel]: the side of the beholder to come
up with one's own reaction to whatever one
[amir_eshel]: sees or whatever emotions one has when
encountweiing a certain side or a sculpture or
[amir_eshel]: memorial in a certain site so
[pj_wehry]: so
[amir_eshel]: not
[pj_wehry]: almost of
[amir_eshel]: yeah please go ahead
[pj_wehry]: i was gonna say so almost a
form of confrontation uh and to maybe create
[pj_wehry]: that reflective space that am i tracking
with you there is that kind of makes
[pj_wehry]: sense of
[amir_eshel]: yes
[pj_wehry]: where we're going
[amir_eshel]: yes
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: because i think art at its best
is bodily reaction or engenders
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: at it at its best bodily reaction
the kind of bodily reaction we have when
[amir_eshel]: we hear a piece of music and
we're deeply deeply moved even in ways which
[amir_eshel]: we cannot verbalize or when we see
a visual image and again you know there's
[amir_eshel]: a quality to the image which really
you know kind of pierces our eyes metaphorically
[amir_eshel]: speaking without us immediately knowing why this
piercing took place i think this this bodily
[amir_eshel]: reaction is perhaps the first step in
a longer
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: process
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: in which as time goes by we're
able to verbalize what we experience and then
[amir_eshel]: make sense of it for ourselves and
then perhaps later even share i with others
[amir_eshel]: you know the french you know wonderful
you know philosopher who recently died bomelato uses
[amir_eshel]: this notion when he talks about esthetics
he says that esthetics is that which renders
[amir_eshel]: us sensitive
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: two and he leaves
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: what comes after two open because it's
always
[pj_wehry]: ah
[amir_eshel]: you know different things a painting is
what renders us sensitive to love to nature
[amir_eshel]: to pain et cetera culture is that
which rends renders us sensitive to where we
[amir_eshel]: are in a city where we are
in a certain space a poem is that
[amir_eshel]: which renders us sensitive words we are
using every day but never quite thought of
[amir_eshel]: et cetera et cetera
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: so i think confrontation and other words
i would use is reaction
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: as we encounter wherever we encounter you
know again a piece of music novel poem
[amir_eshel]: et cetera how do we react to
it physically
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: emotionally intellectually how can we describe this
reaction how
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: can we verbalize it what words do
we use in order to share this reaction
[amir_eshel]: with others and so on
[pj_wehry]: all in search of or in production
of what the good life is supposed to
[pj_wehry]: be bringing a background to what you're
talking about earlier
[amir_eshel]: yes yes yes i think ultimately you
know we are you know meaning seeking creatures
[amir_eshel]: you
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: know we are purpose searching animals and
with the hoped outcome to you know to
[amir_eshel]: live a good life now a meaning
for life a life which makes sense as
[amir_eshel]: we're living we're living it yeah a
life which cannot be reduced to what we
[amir_eshel]: possess you know
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: what we shop for what we consume
a life which goes you know beyond know
[amir_eshel]: what the like or dislike you know
the thump up thump down
[pj_wehry]: uh h something a little more nuance
than that and i think that kind of
[pj_wehry]: brings us to you know your your
final quota here at the end uh you
[pj_wehry]: start with the quotation the world must
be romantic ed by novalis if you don't
[pj_wehry]: mind as we kind of wrap up
you're going to be considerate of your time
[amir_eshel]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: tell us a little bit what it
means to romanticize the world again
[amir_eshel]: it means first and foremost to develop
healthy rich relationship to our emotions befriend our
[amir_eshel]: emotions
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: befriend that part of our lives of
our psyche of our minds of our spirit
[amir_eshel]: which can never be reduced to formulas
to forms to equations to numbers to a
[amir_eshel]: g bubbles
[pj_wehry]: uh
[amir_eshel]: to all these wonderful
[pj_wehry]: uh yeah
[amir_eshel]: things which are important granted you know
i don't want to suggest that these things
[amir_eshel]: are not important you know when it
comes to you know you know finding a
[amir_eshel]: scene you know for cove nineteen you
know we don't need i know what lofty
[amir_eshel]: poems
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: and lofty emotions and all
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: kinds of things that you know take
us away from pursuing the vaccine you know
[amir_eshel]: we need someone to have the numbers
right and conduct the experiments and
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: please give us the vaccine but at
the same time i think we need to
[amir_eshel]: make sure that our lives are not
reduced this and i think the romantics with
[amir_eshel]: a plea to romanticize the world a
prompt us prod us to cultivate that realm
[amir_eshel]: which is emotional which is free of
any kind of rigor and logic which is
[amir_eshel]: instinctual which is corporal which is creative
ultimately which doesn't make sense because it is
[amir_eshel]: there they believe where we experience both
freedom
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: in the very
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: essence of the good life
[pj_wehry]: oh
[amir_eshel]: you know in ways in which you
know graphs and numbers and bubbles and models
[amir_eshel]: and equations can never do
[pj_wehry]: even to take your example we obviously
needed this scientific rigorous logical mode to create
[pj_wehry]: the vaccine but on the on the
tail end you know in the midst of
[pj_wehry]: lock down at the after you know
as things have settled down a little bit
[pj_wehry]: with covid like we need to be
able to create and re create a beautiful
[pj_wehry]: world right we can't allow tough times
to subdue us into a world fear and
[pj_wehry]: boxes
[amir_eshel]: absolutely absolutely you know it's not
[pj_wehry]: my
[amir_eshel]: just about extending human life it's about
living
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: a meaning for life
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: and
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[amir_eshel]: for for life to be meaningful it
needs to be rich with all aspects of
[amir_eshel]: human life including those aspects which i
would call mo tonal the poetic et cetera
[amir_eshel]: for which you know we need to
cultivate a language of vocabulary both verbal and
[amir_eshel]: visual and and that vocabulary again you
know can never be restricted to the realm
[amir_eshel]: of the scientific method or the technological
[pj_wehry]: m
[amir_eshel]: you know world which we also inhabit
has its important but as this book i
[amir_eshel]: think tries to suggest it seems to
me we veered too much in one direction
[amir_eshel]: and we need to try our best
to find a different strike a different balance
[pj_wehry]: i can't think of a better way
to end today thank you d michell for
[pj_wehry]: coming on it has been absolute pleasure
[amir_eshel]: thank you so much for having me
and looking forward to you know conversations with
[amir_eshel]: you and with other readers in the
future