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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
GGJPodcastMarioWynands
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Intro
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[00:00:00] Susan Gold: This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game education trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam. Each week, we will be sitting down with a new guest, highlighting their own path and journey.
[00:00:26] This is a space for honest conversation from makers about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned, an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast. Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
[00:00:49] Shirley McPhaul: This episode is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event, bringing together creators from around the globe. A big thank you as well to the Global Game Jam's headline [00:01:00] sponsors, Epic Games, Games for Change, and Xsolla, for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:06] To learn more and to get involved in the upcoming jams, visit globalgamejam.org.
[00:01:13] This podcast is proudly supported by the PlayStation Hero Project, championing and empowering emerging developer talent across the globe. Discover new heroes at playstation.com China, India, and MENA Hero Project pages. Find the links in the show notes in the description down below
Meet Mario Wynands
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[00:01:37] Susan Gold: Most people in the game the game talk about risk. My guest My guest today has been living it for nearly 30 years. Mario Marten Wyns grew up in Wellington, New Zealand, about as far from the center of the global game industry as you can get. as you can And yet, in 1997, as a young man as a young man who saw dev kit, decided decided was of a reason to try, [00:02:00] a reason to try, and he co-founded a studio with two friends and called it Sidhe Interactive. No roadmap, no industry to speak of, just a willingness to bet on himself and and the future.
[00:02:10] The studio is now known as PikPok. known as It It's shipped titles across damn near every platform. The Into the Dead franchise alone has 100 million times, 100 and he's built teams in Wellington and Medellin, Colombia. Medellín, has been named one of New Zealand's has been named one of New Zealand's in most influential people in gaming. and I would probably say the most also... but I know him. Where in an industry where where studios completely burn burn out and founders Mario has done something truly, genuinely rare. truly, genuinely rare. He's Today, we're gonna talk about Today, we are gonna talk about what actually it takes Not the highlight reels, the real thing. Not the highlights reels,
[00:02:55] Mario, welcome to the show
[00:02:57] Mario Wynands: Uh, thanks for inviting me
[00:02:58] Susan Gold: You're very welcome. [00:03:00] I have known you for quite some time. but I'm pretty sure it was late in the aughts when we met in person, and I've just seen your trajectory and the ability to adapt in our industry over the years. I think you're really a notable person, and I'm really happy to share your story with our listeners. So you grew up a kid in Wellington, and what is everyday life like in that part of the world at that time in the '90s, where games and technology weren't the key to life? What were the things that you did? What started to pull you in that direction?
[00:03:32] Mario Wynands: I guess I gotta say I'd, I had a great childhood. you know, I had, hardworking parents that owned their own bricklaying business, so, they strove to do everything they could for, uh, myself and, and my younger brother. And I guess being born in the mid-'70s and coming of age in the, the '80s was, a bit of a golden time from a media perspective and from a technology [00:04:00] perspective. my childhood was filled with Warhammer Fantasy Battle and D&D with my friends, and then, we had,He-Man and ThunderCats And then, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Ghostbusters as a franchise and, uh, you know, Back to the Future. Andso kind of coming up as a kid through time where creatively across all media, there were all sorts of things happening was really exciting. and, you know, on the gaming side, there, there was a huge trajectory as well, where, going from, being a very young kid, my friend across the road owned an Atari 2600, and very quickly after that,suddenly, the Commodore 64 and then the Amiga 500,as well as PC gaming, you know, it, it was definitely an amazing, uh, time from a, a technological and, and creativeexploration So, it, was definitely,as a kid Being able to kind of [00:05:00] imagine different worlds and seeing those worlds come to life, there was a lot of possibility there. And, and I guess, you know, that's where I started tinkering, about 9 or 10 or 11 years old with,myself and my friends kind of starting to change the rules of D&D or the tabletop stuff that we were playing, starting to program.
[00:05:20] I, I was very, fortunate that my parents caved in when I was 9 or 10 years old and, and bought a computer for, uh, for the house. And, I, I was very privileged. I, I was the only person in my class that, had access to a, a home computer. And that, really helped me get a head start and, unlock some of that passion around starting to program and tinker and create my, my own things.
[00:05:48] So, um, so yeah, it's definitely, a great time to come of age
Work with your head
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[00:05:53] Susan Gold: You told me a story about your father. He came from the physical trades and he wanted more for you, and I [00:06:00] think that story really struck me, and it's about the kind of support in knowing that he was fine with you taking risk. Can you share a little bit of that?
[00:06:08] Mario Wynands: Yeah. I t- I think my parents were,Dutch immigrants that came to New Zealand when they were very young, sort of 19 or 20 years old. They actually got married, here in Wellington. and, that was a, obviously a huge leap, uh, for them. There was some family here that they connected with.
[00:06:27] and essentially set up their, own verybricklaying business, which turned into a, a tiling and marble and granite, business. and so they were very, they were very hardworking and I guess, it had been a multi-generational sort of thing. my father was a bricklayer, his father was a bricklayer, his father was a bricklayer. Um, and, although there was success and,my dad was very good at what he did, very passionate about what he did, essentially became one of the best craftsmen,in New Zealand, it's [00:07:00] hard work, you know? He dragged me onto a lot of building sites,a little bit reluctantly,as a kid.But, it, it's very hard work. And, when I had the opportunity going through school, you know, I loved school, I loved learning, I did well enough that I was able to skip a year at high school go into college and do two degrees, and by squashing that program down into to four years. And a lot of that kind of came from,my father saying, "I want the best for you, and I, I would loveyou to work with your head and not your hands, because,doing things with your, head allows you to scale or go much further." You know, he didn't use those words exactly, but, um,that was kind of what he was getting at.
[00:07:46] And, that stuck with me and, you know, I carried that through into my aspirations for what I wanted to do through college and post-college, which wasn't,uh, game development at the time, but we'll, we'll get to that. a- and [00:08:00] my plan was, "You know what? I'm gonna work with, with my head."
[00:08:03] And, that's what I ended up doing.
[00:08:04] Susan Gold: I remember the first time when I realized that people were paying me to think. I was like, "This is amazing." It gave me a feet to stand on, my grounding point. It's such a, it's such a great thing that your father did
Making Games
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[00:08:19] Susan Gold: There's a story when you saw early possibilities of making games on a PlayStation, and you decided that you and your friends could build a studio. Can you take me to that moment and where you were and why you decided to take that long odds bet?
[00:08:34] Mario Wynands: Sure. yeah, I j- I, I guess, while myself, my friends, uh, in, in various friend circles, we played a lot of games. We, we role-played, tabletop role-playing, uh, tabletop wargaming.
[00:08:49] it, it didn't feel kind of going through school and going through college that, you know, that was a career. That was stuff that happened somewhere else in the world, and at the time, that [00:09:00] was predominantly The UK, and Japan, and the US.
[00:09:03] so that stuff just happened elsewhere. and it never occurred to any of US that we could have a career doing that in New Zealand at the time, there were a couple of people that were having some success, developing for the Amiga and the Commodore line. but it was very small, couple of individuals collaborating. so I graduated college, and I,I did what you do, which is you become part of the machine. Um, I essentially embarked on a, a management consulting career with KPMG, and, that was great learning in a, lot of ways. But, there were a lot of challenges in, working in that large structure that, didn't really reward, t- tenacity and,trying to go above and beyond.And so, uh, after a couple of years, I, I was a little bit disillusioned, even though I, was grateful I had learned a [00:10:00] lot. and right at that time, Sony announced, the Net Yaroze program, which was a special kind of original PlayStation that you could plug into your PC, that would allow you to be able to create games for the Sony PlayStation platform. And it wasn't a professionalplatform, it was just something re- designed to tinker with initially. but I thought, this might be a plausible route to be able to develop for console.and maybe this is something, I should try witha couple of people that, I knew that kind of shared a passion around video games and kind of making stuff. So, so I kinda called together, uh, two of my friends, Stuart Middleton, who I'd, known since I was four years old, who kind of, brought the art side to the table, and Taran McAuley, who I had met, in college, through the computer science program. and kind of [00:11:00] like, "Hey, here's this opportunity. Uh-" Let's try this. And I think the thing that really helped is we had no idea what we were doing and how hard it was going to be. So of course, we threw caution to the wind and, and dived in, uh, headfirst. And, there were certainly some very early big challenges, but, at that age, you know, very early 20s, w- we felt we had the wind at our backs. Uh, there was nothing stopping us, and we just dived in. And, uh, that, that was the, the genesis of what eventually became PikPok today
[00:11:41] Susan Gold: I-- what I find interesting is that you've built a company, and one of the lessons that you've learned is that at KPMG, that all the things that you don't wanna do in an office, and then you went and created an environment where people thrive, where they're rewarded for going above [00:12:00] and beyond. So I like you, that you took that one thing that happened in your world and you were like, "This is just not gonna happen for me anymore."
[00:12:08]
[00:12:09] Mario Wynands: Yeah. I mean, I, I like to think that we, we have a good environment, we promote growth, we, present, an interesting, career path. You know, we've, we've had people who have been with the company for over 20 years, at this point. So, we must be doing something right. But yeah, you do need to actively think about these things and, and be thoughtful and deliberate about how you interact with people, how you, how you reward people, how you keep people, on the right path, how you, how you deal with, with issues.
[00:12:43] And, and again, you know, we had no idea what we were getting into, but we knew that we had something that, we, we were excited about, and we were prepared over time to do the learning, put in the hard work, [00:13:00] to, uh, to give it a go. And, probably helpful at the time that we didn't have much to lose.
[00:13:06] You know, when you're not married, when you don't have children, You don't have a mortgage yet, going all in, it is easy. And,I think that was, that was helpful too, because it, it did, it did get a lot harder before it started getting better
Finding Mentors When you're the First
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[00:13:22] Susan Gold: I know the one thing that you also had to overcome was that there was really no one before you in New Zealand. There weren't a lot of guides. How did you find mentors and how did you find your way?
[00:13:36] Mario Wynands: Yeah, I j- I guess that was something that, We struggled with, a little bit. there were, people who had been doing it for a little while, people like Simon Armstrong and Mark Sibley, who were kind of pioneers of the, New Zealand games industry. but what we were trying to do in terms of building a studio, and, and go bigger, I [00:14:00] guess, wa- was something that hadn't really happened or been successful in New Zealand before.
[00:14:07] So, I, I think the challenge that we faced was certainly at the time, you know, '97, the, the internet was kinda new, been around for a few years at this point, But New Zealand is very far from everywhere, which means it's expensive to get anywhere. So, getting to places like, Los Angeles for E3, was, a very big expensive deal for us.
[00:14:36] And, we tried to make the most of those early trips getting across there, trying to meet with publishers, trying to get our very first, publishing deal. And I think, what that very early first E3 we went to, must have been '99, that was just such a stacked schedule and, very hard to try and win someone [00:15:00] over when you don't really have any work to speak of. Um, you're trying to build a relationship that's going to end and, and please pay us some money, to develop something, um, which is 12 hours plane ride away from you if something is going wrong. so it was very hard to, to build those relationships, on that publishing side. But I, I will say on the developer side, there were, other developers trying to do the same thing as us, interested to share stories, interested to maybe collaborate.
[00:15:32] at the time, the, the Australian games industry was starting to, to build some momentum. and so really, going to the Australian, uh, conference in, uh, in December '99, which kind of was sort of our last ditch effort having sort of tried for, for a few years at this point, that, that was a place where ultimately we were able to make, uh, the right kind of connections in terms of [00:16:00] get the learning, build our network, uh, get in front of people, who are willing to, to give us a shot.
[00:16:06] And, uh, ultimately, you know, we, we won our, our, first contract out of tho- those kind of face-to-face meetings that we had because, you know, it's very important, as it turns out, to build a personal relationship, build rapport.
Buisness Dev
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[00:16:23] Mario Wynands: doesn't matter how good your resume is, doesn't matter how good your workyou need trust there as well, and, that was something we didn't know we, needed until we had built it
[00:16:35] Susan Gold: Yeah. There are no how-to, but the business development is something like you have a little bit of business background, but how did all this biz dev end up in your lap as opposed to your two friends?
[00:16:47] Mario Wynands: Um, I j- I guess I,we sort of naturally fell into these roles and I guess, I, It sort of happened silently and, was kind of this [00:17:00] understanding that we never really spoke to, which, ultimately put me in the leadership position of the company. And, I think, in hindsight, we should've had more of a plan.
[00:17:12] We should've been more deliberate, because, you know, that's one of these things if you don't have well-defined roles, and, uh, And, you get down, 10 years down the track and you're like, "Well, you know, why are we even in these positions, anyway?" But, from the outset,initially,it made sense because I had a computer science degree, but I also brought a, business and management degree to the table as well.
[00:17:36] Sotechnically, I knew more about business so that put me in the, biz dev role. And, ultimately, as we kind of got deeper, deeper and deeper in, I took on, more and more of, of that responsibilityand, now we have, multiple people supporting that particular function.
[00:17:58] Susan Gold: But, yeah, that's kind of where it, [00:18:00] came from is my, my exposure to, that business and management degree plus my time at KPMG. Does the core still make, make the-- You two-- Your, your two co-founders, do they still make decisions, like big decisions with you, or do you really just take it all on yourself?
[00:18:20] Mario Wynands: Yeah. I mean, we, we do have, a board of directors and, you know, we've never really taken on venture capital, So, it's a, it, it's a, it's a very small cap table. It's a very kind of flat structure. I've been very fortunate that, you know, my co-founders, my executive team, and the company generally has,given me,a lot of leeway in terms of, leading the company and taking us down various paths.the board of directors has been fairly open and, understanding too. So, um, I, I think,the [00:19:00] key really is being open-minded and listening to what people have to say, especially if they're raising concerns about a particular path or adirection, and trying to make sure that,you're, um, factoring those things into your decision-making and um, being clear on what it is that you're trying to do.
[00:19:22] So, so yeah, I, I think, you know, we've, had a fairly looseconsultationdecision-making structure for the most part. I d- I don't know how I would necessarily deal if we IPO'd, I feel like the market maybe might not be so forgiving of, of my particular process and, and the way I approach
The Scariest Leap
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[00:19:57] Susan Gold: leadership and s- and strategy. But, um, yeah, certainly I've been very blessed to, to have the support of my co-founders, my executive team, and, the board, um uh, to, to get us to this point.And for [00:20:00] almost 30 years, it's incredible. So you've led the studio from Rugby League to Into the Dead and now Our Darkest Days. When you look across those decades, which strategic pivot felt like it was the scariest leap as a leader and, and why?
[00:20:18] Mario Wynands: Yeah, that I, I guess that's been an interesting, it's an interesting question and, Because I, guess we-- people have talked about the, the pivot and the pivots that the company has taken, over the years. And it l- it looks like that from the outside that we're like, "Oh, you know, we were a console studio, and now suddenly we are a, um, a mobile free-to-play studio. and now we're kind of an entertainment publisher, across every, every platform." but the reality is, is that, I, I wouldn't really refer to these so much as pivots as transitions [00:21:00] because they have all been deliberate, and they have all been, years in the making. So, you know, moving from a place where we were, uh, kind of console work-for-hire, was really around that we started really feeling, that being at the bottom of the video game development food chain was not a good place to be.
[00:21:25] You know,starting to be squeezed on margins by, um, emerging, regions like, like China. there was A, lot of content, coming to market around that time, which meant,you know, theexpectations were just climbing and climbing. the average time a game spent on retail shelves was going down.so we, we saw a lot of red flags about being essentially kind of a, a middle B tier console studio. we were not triple A, we we were not double A, uh, we were not a value developer Um, [00:22:00] but we saw that, the middle was going to be under pressure and maybe disappear. So even, you know, as far back as2006, we were like, "Okay, we really need to find the space, find the means, find the way for us to be funding our own content,publishing our own content," um,and having that, transition into essentially being more of an independent, developer that, was a bit more self-sustaining and not reliant on the next contract to get you to the next contract and the next contract.
[00:22:33] So, um, so yeah, uh, you know, around about that time, we saw the emergence of Xbox Live Arcade, PlayStation Network. We were actually the first third-party game released on,PlayStation Network. and then when the GFC. hit, in 2008,that really Made us make that final choice is like, well, we either try to retract and just ride [00:23:00] out the storm as this console work-for-hire studio, or we just double down on the strategy of moving into digital distribution, becoming an independent studio,and we did just that. we started releasing on Steamthe year after the GFC.Apple opened up the App Store and that was another platform that we started experimenting with and, uh, we were able to build some momentum there. So, so yeah, it sort of... Looking from the outside, it sort of feels like a pivot because we were developing console work-for-hire stuff right up until that point and actually slightly beyond into 2010.
[00:23:38] But, um, yeah, w- it was very deliberate and years in the making, coming from sort of looking ahead and seeing what was on the horizon, understanding where we were in the ecosystem, and realizing that we needed to change that
[00:23:54] Susan Gold: That goes back to my whole view, understanding risk and being able to navigate it so delicately and [00:24:00] well. I remember your first games on the iPhone. Those were some of the first games I played mobile, and I think that they were fun and they were new and they were well above a flash game that was kind of like the standard that we had. So it was something definitely a step or two ahead. But when you weigh those risks against things that are unproven, what keeps you up at night? Are you-- At, at that time, how, how big is the studio?
Sponsor: PlayStation Hero Project
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[00:24:28] Shirley McPhaul: And now let's take a moment to thank the sponsor for this episode, the PlayStation Hero Project, an incubator program founded by Sony Interactive Entertainment focused on identifying and supporting emerging developer talent from India, China, and the MENA regions. You can be a hero too if your game was made in one of these regions.
[00:24:50] Check out the teams getting their support, like Big Boot Games, creators of the game Meteora, a survival combat racer where you're not [00:25:00] just in the cockpit, you are the meteor. Dodge cosmic hazards, chase and smash rival meteors, and turn the whole screen into a meteor shower as you fight to be the last one standing.
[00:25:13] Every run is a high-speed race for survival, where you chain power-ups, improvise your path through space, and try to outrun the chaos just one more time. Meteora: The Race Against Spacetime is available for wish listing on Steam. For more information on the PlayStation Hero Project and the teams they support, go to playstation.com China, India, or MENA Hero Project pages.
[00:25:40] Find the links in the show notes and in the description down below. And now back to the show.
[00:25:47] Mario Wynands: Um, I'd, I think um, 2008 to 2010, well, 2010, yeah, I think we were about [00:26:00] 150 people, probably about 120 people full-time and and maybe 30 contractors on top. So, that's a pretty big, headcount to try and transition from, going from a business model around paid contract work to self-funding everything.
[00:26:20] So, there was a, a gradual shifting, you know, as we could shift teams away from the work for hire stuff, onto promising games and get those out there and build up and layer the revenue streams from our portfolio over time. you know, that that then enabled us to become fully independent eventually. But, um, I, I guess the, the thing is, and this is, I think is true today as it was then, is that you don't really know how your game is going to perform until you get it, out there. and you know, we, we have good signals in terms of [00:27:00] wish lists or soft launch metrics or data or, you know, sentiment analysis that you can do, but you never really know, um, until you, you scale things globally and you do that release. and and it's just And until you see it, then you can sort of, be relieved and go, "Okay, we did the right thing." but it's not easy. And, and you can see, you know, there are mu- companies which are much bigger than us, have much greater resources, much, much deeper marketing and analysis teams who are making much bigger bets and, uh, a- and losing hundreds of millions of dollars.
[00:27:44] So, uh, a- and it's true in games, it's true in, in film and in music as well. It's just a very challenging market. So even to this day, you know, if we have a big release coming, what keeps [00:28:00] me up at night? Yeah. I, I'm, I'm usually a little bit sleepless, uh, around the release of something and, um, you know, I'll, I'll be there at two o'clock in the morning kinda clicking the live data feed to, to make sure everything's, uh, on track. And, uh, a- and once you see things kind of playing out the way that you expected and The way that you planned, that's very satisfying. But if it's not going the way that you, uh, you want it, well, then you gotta take a different path and, and work out how you can rescue something or, or, you know, what impact that's going to have on the studio
From Coder to Business
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[00:28:38] Susan Gold: You don't code though anymore. They don't let you in the pit to code, right?
[00:28:43]
[00:28:43] Mario Wynands: They don't let me code. Well, yeah, I mean, uh, I d- I, I coded-- The last time I coded actually, um, in a meaningful way was the very first project [00:29:00] that, we did, our very first work-for-hire contract in, uh, in 2000. And, um, you know, from there, as we started, hiring employees and the studio getting bigger and me taking on kind of more of that studio management, business development, strategic development role, you know, had me stepping away from, from coding. But, I, I guess I, I've been fortunate that I carry enough technical understanding and programming understanding that, uh, I'm not so easy to hoodwink. so, you know, I remember, uh, back in the 2000s, we had a senior programmer who was adamant that there wasn't an issue, in the particular piece of code they were responsible for. and then I just waited until everybody went home, and I went and fixed the problem. So that was probably my last meaningful, writing, changing anything contribution. but I, I will say, I do think having that understanding of how [00:30:00] things fit together and how things interrelate, how you architect things, having that computer science grounding does mean that I do feel like I have a good sense of how hard something could be or, how we might be able to approach diagnosing an issue or how we might be able to approach
Looking Beyond the Games
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[00:30:22] Mario Wynands: opening up an opportunity.
[00:30:23] So, um, so yeah. but I, I don't know that, uh, that it would be responsible of anybody in the studio to let me open a Unity editor, at the moment.
[00:30:34] Susan Gold: recently, you have taken on new risks. You're bringing Into the Dead to PC, you're doing Steam early access with Our Darkest Days, and you're experimenting with VR for Rival Stars. What convinced you that it would be worth putting a successful mobile franchise, a studio with a lot of resources, on these new headsets and consoles?
[00:30:59] Mario Wynands: Yeah, I j- [00:31:00] I, I think again I pride myself on trying to see over the horizon and, and see where things are going. you know, we're always looking beyond, just the games that we're doing now to,to what's coming after that and, and, and what does it mean if this game is successful, or not successful, and what opportunities will that open up or what business line will that open up? So, uh, you know, we're looking a- and, you know, our roadmap for the studio is, is measured in, many years,not just the projects that are right in front of us right now. so I think, we've taken on different opportunities over the years. we've experimented with a lot of different platforms, some of which have been successful, some of which haven't. and I think, we've honed the ability over time, I guess, to kinda see where the opportunities are. You know, we have our own in-house games user research, [00:32:00] market research team. Um, we're trying to stay across the trends, understanding what we're good at, what we're not good at, trying to see, where the market opportunities are. you know, I th- I think that that is something where I feel we have a certain level of sophistication now around that, as well as understanding, what the likely commercial outcomes are. we feel that, Into the Dead: our Darkest Days on Steam and console, will provide a, a predictable return, provided we execute based on the market signals that we have and the community that we're building. at the same time, we kind of, balance out our overall portfolio. by, making plays into, known categories with, our Rival Stars Horse Racing brand has been very successful. We're on the cusp of releasing Barbie: Horse Ride and Rescue, which,is [00:33:00] a very deliberate choice to partner and, be complementary, to our Rival Stars games as part of, that portfolio. we're moving into and experimenting with, what we're calling hyper reality, which is, what we're calling the evolution of mixed reality but that's actually, not designed necessarily to be commercially successful from the jump, so much as exploring a whole new category and seeing whether we can be a pioneer in a new type of gaming.
[00:33:33] So,you know, when you're, when you have enough scale to be working across multiple platforms, multiple markets, building out your own franchises, we're taking the opportunity where we, can to continue to reinforce and be complementary. You know, we're not just creating some random new hyper-reality game. We're creating a hyper-reality game in the "Into the Dead" franchise, because that feeds back [00:34:00] into,creating a richer IP that will, will support the expressions across other things. So, so it's about being deliberate, complementary, and managing your risk. You know, we, have rolled the dicedozens and dozens and dozens of times, and sometimes you can load the dice and stack, uh, the deck in your favor.sometimes, you know, it's a bit of a, a bit of a Hail Mary. But the trick is making sure you don't bet the studio on the Hail Mary. you do those every now and again to potentially be a breakout, but, what we do as our bread and butter, um, you know, we,
Unusual Advantagess
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[00:34:44] Mario Wynands: we feel very confident about.
[00:34:45] Susan Gold: We can stillinnovate, but we don't feel like anybody's job is on the line, uh, just because we're putting a new game into development. That is because you built such a resilient studio over the course of 30 years. You, [00:35:00] you have made Wellington a, a very unusual hub of video games, and one of the things you've been rather outspoken about is the fact that in New Zealand you have limited talent pool and that immigration is difficult, and you've kind of led to make you move and grow.
[00:35:18] Mario Wynands: Yeah. I t- I think, I, I mentioned before, you know, geography was definitely a limitation when it came to building early momentum.but at the same time, it was also a benefit because we weren'tencumberedby the legacy way of doing things.we didn't know how to do something, so we just had to work out, "Well, what is the best way of doing this thing?"
[00:35:45] and, uh, so that allowed us, I think, to in some ways to move faster and and to be innovative in, in terms what we were doing.but I think New Zealand generally is actually a, a, a very interesting place [00:36:00] forentrepreneurship and innovation and, and discovery. You know, we're in a, a very multicultural society here.uh, I grew up, consumingAmerican media and British media and television and Australian stuff, and then you're exposed to other cultures around the Asia Pacific. we have,a strong Indian, Chinese, Pacific Islander, um, population. And so you're just exposed to all these different ideas, all these different cultures, And that allows New Zealanders, I think,we go to create our own stories and, our own worlds and our own expressions of art or, creating our own products or designs.
[00:36:46] When we package those, uh, for global consumption, what we create resonates well with, uh, with global audiences. And I think that that comes across and has [00:37:00] seen New Zealand be successful in film and fashion and, design and now games. So, I th- I think that was something that wasn't necessarily obvious to me until we were really getting momentum in the mobile space, and our three biggest markets at the time were the US, Russia, and China. And you're sort of like, "Okay, well, how is this possible when, you know, these are, these are three very different cultures? They're, you know, different economically, different histories," But I d- I do think that New Zealanders generally, uh, have a way of creating stuff which is just accessible to a wide varietyof people. So, um, so yeah, I d- I think that's part of
The move to Colombia
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[00:37:52] Mario Wynands: the m- the magic that the New Zealand games industry, uh, has.
[00:37:57] Um, uh, [00:38:00] but, uh, you know, a lot of hard work and, and things like that too, uh, you know, obviously make a difference.
[00:38:06] Susan Gold: So tell me a little bit about your thoughts about why you decided to expand to Colombia.
[00:38:11] Mario Wynands: Yeah, I th- I think,Prior to COVID, there was definitely,um, a, a lot of opportunity to, to bring people. to New Zealand and, for most of the life of, studio, about two-thirds of the studio was New Zealand nationals, and then about a third of the studio was foreign nationals. And,we hadn't had much issue bringing people into, the country.
[00:38:37] Like any immigration process, there is a process, but you know, generally we're bringing in, very, talented,well-paid people. Um, COVID obviouslywas a bit of a challenge because we locked down our border hard and,that was, I think, the right thing to do for the country, and we, were [00:39:00] one of the most successful countries in the world in, limiting fatalities,arising out of COVID. but it made it very, very difficult because essentially it was incredibly hard to get into the country, even for New Zealand citizens. and that meant that, this global talent pool that we'd been tapping into where, we were sort of only being able to level up by bringing on peoplewho were even more senior, had even more experience, suddenly,that was shut off.
[00:39:34] And, we ended up, uh, in those first couple of years of COVID where, the talent was here was then suddenly being pulled in all sorts of different directions with,the fintech industry, with web,with design.so very,very challenging for us to, to be able to, to find people And even post-COVID as things open up again, global [00:40:00] mobility doesn't quite seem to have, reverted back to where it was, before. I think people are a little bit more conscious aboutstaying close to their friends and family. You know, suddenly the prospect of going to the other side of the world, to,be in New Zealand and have an adventure,you know, people are a little bit more conscious now that, how far away New Zealand is.
[00:40:21] So, um, so yeah, part of that motivation, um, to, to look at having other locations around the world was, um, just the slightly decreased, global mobility. There's an economic aspect to that as well. there, there's a, there's a talent aspect,to that too. I, I'm pleased to say that, that, kind of the talent pressure in New Zealand has mostly been alleviated now.
[00:40:49] Susan Gold: We have greatwe have great specialist schools. We've got,a lot of collaboration happening, so there's a lot of talentflowing into, the industry here. But, having [00:41:00] that second studio location in, uh, in Medellín,just gives us another, vector to be able to, to grow from and, a lot more flexibility for, for the studioI love the fact that I was the person that first took you to Colombia.
[00:41:16] Mario Wynands: You were. You, you introduced me to Colombia and, that's something that,I'm really gratefulfor the opportunity you and so many others provided, to be able to go around the
What are the next big risks?
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[00:41:31] Mario Wynands: world to meet with developers in emerging regionsand, um, that has, turned into something, amazing over time.
[00:41:36] So thank you
[00:41:39] Susan Gold: as we start to wrap this up, I want to get a little perspective on where you're thinking the future is gonna take us. You seem to be two or three steps ahead of everybody else.
[00:41:49] What are the next big risks you feel you still need to take? You know, is it worth it at this point in our lives to continue with that kind of risk?
[00:41:58] Mario Wynands: Yeah. Um, [00:42:00] I I think you know, we're still in a place where we're willingto take risks to try new things, but, uh, I think that's one of those things, the bigger you get, the more there is to lose. And, trying to, find that balance between,continuing to innovate and grow and find new, unexplored opportunities, balancing that with, you know, we are now responsible for the lives, hundreds of people and indirectly their families and their dependents.
[00:42:31] So,we're very careful about trying to, uh, present,an exciting vision to, to have people working towards, while at the same time managing that risk in a way that,that people feel that there is stability and dependability there.I will say though, this is a super interesting, time, not only for the games industry, but, reallygenerally because you have this kind of confluence of,[00:43:00] different technologies and, the combination of AI and quantum computing and manufacturing on demand and, advances in communications and travel. andI think it's been super interesting, to, to think about how humans have been able to project and anticipate the future,because when you kind of average everything out, innovation of human society has mostly been linear, you know, outside of a few inflection points. um, and I think now The ability look 10 years ahead from where you are, now,to imagine where your kids might be or imagine where your company might be or imagine where the games industry and how you make games and w- what games people even, uh, like or what they're playing on, I think that's harder than ever before. So, [00:44:00] I think for us, um, in, in the path that we're cho- choosing is to manage some of that risk by making sure we're doubling down on those things, that are working for us, that are, working well. And that means continuing to, to push and develop and build our "Into the Dead" franchise, to continuingto push and build and develop ourexpertise in,you know, that, that side of things, um, to explore,new platforms and new ways of doing things, to think about, you know, what other foundations of franchises we may want to build.
[00:44:37] You know, you don't just start with a franchise. You have to start with a game and have that be successful. But you can think about how, if I build this thing, does it have the potential to turn into something of the scaleof "Into the Dead"? Does it have,the opportunity to,build into a wider IP and into an [00:45:00] IP that can,go across different platforms, that has the ability to transcenddifferent genres? So,that's the way we're,thinking about it. Um, you know, certainly becoming more,focused, even more deliberate,because I think it's even harder than any time before to,anticipate where everything,will go. And, you know, as I mentioned earlier, there are people with a lot more money than us, making much bigger mistakes,than we are making and,we don't want to repeat those sorts of mistakes because,for a company like ours, independent,
Where to find Mario
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[00:45:36] Mario Wynands: a $100 million mistake would be, uh, the end of everything.
[00:45:40] And, uh, I don't want to,work for 30 years just to throw it all away on a blind roll of the dice.
[00:45:49] Susan Gold: So where can people read more about you, reach out to you, and learn more about what's going on besides the GGJ Podcast?
[00:45:58] Mario Wynands: Sure. Um, [00:46:00] I'm pretty easy to, uh, to find on,on the internet. I can, be found on LinkedIn. uh... our PikPok website is just pikpok.com, pretty easy. Uh, you'll see links to to. all of our games there. Um, I will say, if you want to find out more about the New Zealand games industry and what's happening here, and there's a lot happeninghere, it's, a great industry that's having a lot of success right now.looking at the New Zealand Association website, which is just nzgda.com, is, uh, is an easy one to get to. and of course, people should think about coming to our national conference, which,uh, this year is in Auckland, direct flights from a lot places. It'll be a long flight, but, uh, you know, there's a lot of direct flights, so... and that's just nzgdc.com. So that's, uh, our national conference at [00:47:00] the end of, uh, September
[00:47:01] Susan Gold: It's just 17 hours.
[00:47:04] Mario Wynands: Well, it's 17 hours-ish from New York. Um,12 hours from, from LA or San Francisco,so that's not too bad to, to check out some very cool developers
[00:47:16] and, um, you know, it, it's a very warm, welcoming industry that we have here and, and we would love for, for people to attend
[00:47:24] Susan Gold: And hey, New Zealand is our number two ranking in our podcast listenership, so thank you, New Zealand. Thank you so much. Mario, it's been a pleasure and a delight, and I appreciate your time today.
[00:47:39] Thank you.
Outro
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[00:47:40] Mario Wynands: This podcast is proudly supported by the PlayStation Hero Project, championing and empowering emerging developer talent across the globe. Discover new heroes at PlayStation.com China, India, and MENA Hero Project pages. Find the links in the show notes in the description down below.
[00:47:56] Shirley McPhaul: Want to get involved with the GGJ Podcast? We'd love to hear [00:48:00] from you. Please send your ideas, suggestions, and questions to ggjpod@globalgamejam.org, and tell us who you think we should be talking to next, what stories or issues matter most to you about the future of games, and help us highlight the people and practices that make a sustainable creative life in games possible.
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[00:48:42] Catch us on Substack and on YouTube and anywhere else you find podcasts. This has been the GGJ Podcast. Thanks for listening, and keep making games