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Join Andy Marsland in Exploring Clean Energy where we uncover the ideas, innovations, and projects powering our sustainable future.
You may know us as Exploring Hydrogen, where for 31 episodes we’ve shone a spotlight hydrogen. However, our global challenge of decarbonisation is much bigger than one energy vector.
Now, as we continue as The Exploring Clean Energy Podcast, this 2nd season we’re expanding the conversation to include the other stories that are shaping the energy transition of Australia and the world. We hope you enjoy the diversity of thought, and I welcome you so engage with me to help shape the episodes moving forward – so we can bring you the technical experts and projects that you want to hear about and to answer your important questions. Welcome to our energising journey.
You are listening to Exploring Clean Energy, where we uncover the ideas, innovations, and projects powering our sustainable future. I'm Andy Marsland. Welcome to the show.
I'm thrilled to welcome our guest today, Nathan Blundell, who's the Chief Development Officer at WIN Lab. Very well. Welcome Nathan. Uh, thanks for having me, Andy. Happy to be here. Wind Lab are one of the leading, um, renewable energy development companies here in Australia. Perhaps we can start at a high level.
Danny, can you explain to the listeners and the viewers who is Windlab? Yeah, definitely. So, Windlab was formed around 2003 as A-C-S-I-R-O. So, uh, we developed a, a software called Scape that found best wind sites in the country around the world. Um, and it started there and actually we've had it played a part in around 25% of all wind farms that have been, uh, established in Australia.
So really proud history. Um. We're a hundred percent Australian grown. And from that we've really built out our capability to deliver, I guess, best in class projects, uh, across NM. Um, one of the key things about who we are, we're fully integrated across the value chain, which means we, we don't just look at development.
I guess the humble days are when we looked at wind maps and things like that, which Yeah, was at the mapping we did. Got a lot more accuracy than the common public wind maps. So we now do that. Still the prospecting side of things, but we do all the way through the development to, to financial close into construction, then into operation.
So that full integration of a value chain's really powerful and, and quite unique in the industry. Sometimes we've got a 20 gigawatt. Pipeline, which is, it sounds large, huge. Yes, that's, I was gonna say, um, everyone's got, everyone's got large numbers these days because the projects are just getting bigger.
Um, that's the opportunity scale's really coming into the industry at the moment. So almost overnight we went from megawatts to gigawatts and so that's exciting. One of our pioneering, I guess, first projects we built as in that new model was, uh, Kennedy, Angie Park. That was a world first at the time, outta Hedon.
So that's a, a hybrid. It was a world first wind, battery and solar, a hybrid plant. It's often one of the most best performing wind farms on the nm. So we're really proud of that. But that's an example of some of the things Wind Lab has been able to do through that innovation and really build on that.
Mm-hmm. And when, when did that become operational? So that was built in 2015, became operational around 20 18, 20 19. Uh, it's on, again, some places in, in the grid. It's one of the weaker parts of the grid. So there's some challenges there from a grid connection, but it's still one of the highest performing assets, uh, on the nm.
Yeah. And I know we're gonna jump around all over the place mm-hmm. Uh, with the discussion today, but, so yeah. Perhaps for the listeners, could you kind of explain the development, um, lifecycle, you know, how long it takes from having an idea as such Mm. Or a, um, you know, through, through the kind of testing period, uh, and then into developments and, uh, yeah.
And execution. Yeah, for sure. It varies, I guess there, there's, there's a fair bit of risk in the development phase and a bit of uncertainty and it all really depends on the site. So no site is the same. Um, it can take, I say the quickest you could probably move is around five years. Um, but it wouldn't be crazy to take 10 years to develop from start to finish.
Um, and normally the, the first bit of it, it is changing what used to be acceptable as a development pathway. You know, five years ago isn't acceptable anymore from how you develop. Would that be from an approvals or social license point of view? But that doesn't necessarily delay. Your, um, development, uh, if you get it right from the start.
Mm-hmm. So one things WIN Labs really focused on is doing renewables the right way and really raising the bar as to how you deliver it. And that means doing the right thing early, not waiting until we have to do it or until you're asked to do it. So a lot of that early engagement is finding the right site, securing the land, but at the same time thinking about how you're assessing that site from a multi-criteria point of view, whether it be wind, environmental, social, cultural.
And then engaging with stakeholders quite early, that's really important, that de-risks and allows you to move quite quickly then through those approvals and engagement, um, requirements to, to get to, to financial close. It depends on which markets and approval processes as well, um, how long that takes to get approval and how expensive it is to get approval.
But yeah, there's. It'd be very surprised if you could get from that very start to close in, in, in any shorter than five years. It's, it's quite challenging. Yeah. How many years of data do you generally need? Oh, you just need, it varies. Um, you always need more data. Andy, for respect to wind, wind engineers, they always want more data.
But, um, I think that's one of the, the great, um, value of having something like scape that we use. We're quite sure of the resource when we, when we get. To the site. So we're not taking a punt and throwing a data at a map and saying, let's test here and see if the wind's any good. We generally know it's good.
So it's in finding out what are the, what's the, what's the, the finer details of that wind resource, and it's more the micro wind resource on the site. Where do turbines need to go? And that really helps us. We do that through remote sensing like lidars, and then we'll put Met MAs in. So the Met MAs data is around the bankability.
You need that about 12 months before close, but the sooner you get it, then it helps with things like turbulence and site assessments with with OEMs. Yes. You mentioned about the early engagement with the, uh, the stakeholders and the community. What's been the approach that you've taken? Is that community meetings or like, you know, how do you go about that kinda step by step?
Yeah. Um, firstly I'd say it's not a cookie cutter approach. Each side is different, each community is different. Um, so we need to approach it in that way. Kinda stepping back a bit, um. Well, I've, I entered the industry in 2021 with Win Lab and uh, it was just when it's really taking off, I guess, with a lot more activity.
Uh, and there's a lot of parallels to other kind of, uh, infrastructure resource development, um, kind of booms we've seen in the past. So, uh, I've. Wind lab's taken an approach where you need to do things a bit differently, how it was being done. So previously it was done on the proximity principle. Just talk to the people you have to talk to in the immediate vicinity, landholders, maybe immediate neighbors if they can see it.
Uh, local councils if you have to. Whereas we're talking more of a regional approach 'cause these projects are getting so big and there's more of a. Expectation from communities and, and regional partners that you need to be engaging a bit more widely. Mm-hmm. So we took that, um, initiative and now we, we look at a, a broader spectrum and we engage a lot earlier than, than you would normally.
So that's around from the start. You need to probably engage a bit sooner than industry. Generally would've previously, and that takes a bit of vulnerability. So it means you have to take a bit of risk. So you need to need to offer something to community. Um, and the first thing, I guess a key step in all of this, whether it's a a town hall or a drop in session, the key thing is listening.
If engagement's all about just telling people something that's not actually engagement, uh, the key thing about engagement is listening. Secondly, having giving the staff the skills and the time to do it properly. If you're approaching it as a business, as a tick box, that's not actually engagement either.
Engagement is actually going out there with the right people who have the skills to engage, talk, and listen, and bring that back to the business and really take that on board as part of the development process. So we, we have all different forms of engagement, whether it be through newsletters, phone calls, but drop sessions are really good.
Talking with regional partners, they're really important depending on the areas you're in. It's really engaging with those regional partners who, who can then help you engage with the broader community. That can be education institutions. Obviously local government are key partners for us, so really engaging with them early, uh, but then also chambers of commerce, regional enterprise, uh, organizations.
One of our projects, Bunin in the Western Downs, the Tourette throughout Basin Enterprise tis. So yeah, in inland Queensland for everyone listening. Yes. Having further a feel. They're really strong organizations, so things like that will help you. Mm-hmm. Um, and then broader, you know, you can also engage with conservation groups and things like that, that are in the region as well, so they understand the country fairly well as well.
So, yeah. And then obviously traditional owner. Um, groups, it really making sure we're moving beyond what we have to do under cultural heritage and native title legislation, but really looking to them as, as key stakeholders and engaging early with them, um, to ensure that they've got a say as to what's happening on country and, and really felt bought into to what we're doing.
And something in Bay, it's a North Queensland project where, um, we've been able to work with traditional owners at G Bardon on a indigenous land use agreement, and that's where they've been really able to. Play a role in environmental stewardship and get a lot of training and employment opportunities for the project.
Sounds like you, you guys are going above and beyond, which is great to, to hear. I think you used the phrase like, raising the bar, so that Yeah. That's fantastic. And commend you on that. Um, what, what are some of the common concerns then from, from the communities that you're hearing? Again, it's not gonna be, uh, cookie cut, cookie ta.
It's, it's, it, it varies right? I think, uh, the way I'd frame it when, when asked this question, is it, it's generally not specific to the technology or the wind, uh, whether it's wind, solar, battery, the main thing we're managing is change. Um, like any main infrastructure project, you're going out and talking about something that's gonna change their community.
Mm-hmm. And so the main concern is what are the impacts gonna be? You know, how is this gonna change my day to day? What are the impacts on me and my community? And so the main concerns is. The impacts of those changes. And then, okay, if there's impacts, are there benefits? And how are we gonna make sure those benefits are, are targeted at the right place in the community?
So that's generally the, the main train of thought when we're engaging and listening. And it's, and then also when, when, when's it gonna happen? Which is really hard. And it's one of the challenging things, and probably talk to it too about certainty of that timeline, that five to 10 years I talked about.
Um, some of that is outta the developer's control. So I think if, if any developer had their, that would want to go as quickly as possible from start to finish. Unfortunately, a lot of things that take a bit longer isn't due to decisions made by the developer, but things outta their control. Um, like approvals, processes.
And so that not just frustrates the, the developer, it frustrates the community. They want to know, when's this, when's this gonna happen? Yeah. And you can't tell 'em exactly when it's gonna happen. 'cause you, you're exposed to external processes, whether it be approvals or grid. And so you can't tell them when it's gonna happen.
So that'd be the one of the biggest concerns because there's a lot of consultation fatigue happening. There's a lot of work happening, not just renewables, but there's resource projects, uh, infrastructure projects, um, the community. You need to be really efficient with that engagement. Um, and you need to give them accurate, timely information.
Yeah, you, I think a lot of companies don't kind of appreciate looking outside their own immediate industry. And, um, I guess in parallel to that, the importance of making sure things get. Are done right and done correctly. 'cause it's not just, you know, if something went wrong with Wind Lab and their community engagement, it's not just wind lab.
The whole wind in industry kind of gets tarnished by that, that view, isn't it? Uh, yeah. We, we manage a number of strategic risks, you know, for our business. And I'd say from a social license, it's not just what we do, it's what the industry does, which is why, um, we do things like podcasts or speak at conferences and around raising the bar because we're only as strong as our weakest link as as an industry.
And so, yeah. A significant impact we've had on our projects generally hasn't been to, due to our behavior or what we've been doing, it's because of other projects or other, whether it be renewables or like they've done something that has then caused distrust or caused misinformation to come through. And so definitely we need to work together as industry and do better.
Raise expectations through regional organizations, localized and even state-based organizations like Queensland Renewal Energy Council, and really set the expectation of what it means to, to be a good developer and engaging properly. Um, but there is other things that are gonna impact us as well because, uh, natural disasters, obviously, um, communities have, like I said, they're all different, so they've got their regional economies.
So you've really gotta understand that context before going out there and. Talking about a big project that's really important to you as a developer, but there's a lot of things happening in regional communities or regional Australia and you've gotta understand that context. And it, when it goes to individual landholders is understanding the agricultural generally challenges that they're seeing in the market.
So, and that's what I mean about having the right people going out that have those discussions. So generally people have. Knowledge of agriculture industries. Uh, I love engineers, but I'm not sending an engineer out there to talk to, to a landholder or a community. They might be there, talk about technical sides, but as said, the listening part, any type of people that have trained and qualified to be able to do that.
Yes. Yeah. Um, the approvals process, so E-E-P-B-C, uh, process, how have you been finding that over previous years and is it. Improving in terms of the, you know, the, the speed and the efficiency of working through that process? I don't think we've seen an improvement, but it's, you know, I've seen definitely over the last five years that for many reasons we've definitely seen it slow down, taking a lot longer and a lot more complexity in the approvals process.
So, sorry, there is more complexity in the approvals. Right. Okay. Yeah. And, and that could be due to just a scale of, of projects and so. I guess we haven't seen a improvement. We, we are seeing some, obviously the, the reforms that are going on now, and we have seen a real effort from the government to, to address that.
Mm-hmm. So, I, I wouldn't say it's getting worse. They're definitely seeking to address it and move quicker and do things like the reforms, but also change how they're, they're trying to manage and get things through in a timely basis. So. I guess the best way to think about it too is we've had this EPVC ACT for 20 years as well and it's, and it's more recently become more of an issue.
So I think it's reform is great and I think it's, it's appropriate, but there's also things we probably do in the implementation, both now and with the new legislation to make sure it's timely and moves quicker. Because the main thing we've we want is certainty. So whether it's under this ACT or future act.
I think industry needs certainty as to what's expected and how we deliver it. So I think there's been a probably a shift in expectations sometimes during approvals, which is really frustrating and takes a lot of time and makes it, you know, you've gotta repeat a lot of work. But how we address that is, is firstly finding a site that, and, and trying to minimize our impacts as much as possible.
And then working to, you've almost gotta, we talk about raising the bar so it's not just at a community level. You gotta think about raising the bar across your project. And so a lot of our projects we think about where. What's, what's somewhere that's a bum beyond, because that's probably where expectations are gonna be by the time this is coming for approval.
So a good example for that is Gura Bay, a project of ours in North Queensland. We've got a biodiversity net gain strategy, which means, uh, at a regional level, we wanna make sure that biodiversity, um, has a better outcome overall. As to when we started on the project. And you can do that through like pest management, um, existing threats.
Yeah. Pest management, weed management, fire management, land use. Um, because a lot of the sites were going to are degrading already due to, uh, various impacts on the environment. And by being there, yes, there are impacts due to clearing, but you can actually improve the outcomes by having other controls.
Such as feral predator management, pest management. And that's really helped us to, to focus on the outcomes. And I think the biggest challenge at the moment is the ACT really looks at only impacts not the outcomes. So if we can look at a more holistic view as to those positive outcomes for regional and biodiversity, that could be a great breakthrough for, for how we assess these projects because there is no zero impact project available.
Unfortunately, every inch of this. Country is valuable, whether it be from an environmental, social, cultural aspect point of view. So we need to make sure that we've got a good way of assessing that and being more outcomes focused rather than just on the, the singular impact. Sounds like, uh, out that size portfolio, was it 30 billion?
Potential development, portfolio development pipeline that you've got, how do you kind of whittle it down or, you know, what's the process that you go to to decide which is a a viable site? Yeah, a great question. It's, and it's definitely where a history came from. So it's, we talked about finding a, a windy site.
Um, it's not just about. It being windy, it's gotta be windy at the right times of day. So there's a term diurnal, meaning windy at nighttime, and then low correlation, meaning it's windy when other places aren't windy. So that's generally the, the high level kind of macro assessment we'll do. Then thinking about where, where are the markets, where, where there's energy needed, where can it be?
Where can it meet the demand? So demand is a key part of assessment to it and macro level. Where is there a demand for energy and, and how it can be connected? Um, then when you go down at a site level, you're doing it really a multi-criteria analysis. It's not just, here's the best win, we'll put it here.
You've gotta assess that overlay, like I mentioned, environmental constraints, cultural constraints, social constraints, agricultural land, use constraints, uh, and really think about all those things. So there's a lot of work done, even just before even putting dots on a map around that multi criteria assessment.
And then you're also looking at grid and how are you gonna connect it to the grid and, and what are the constraints in that grid network? Is there a transmission line there now is it gonna be a future transmission? So a lot of that work is done at, at a high level, and then you start progressing through the feasibility, assessing things like wind, but then doing some initial environmental surveys, doing some grid studies, doing grid inquiries to, to see what that's like then.
Then testing the market from a demand point of view as well. And then, as I mentioned, engagement, engagement, engagement. So making sure we're talking to the community landholders about what. What they need and want and how do we coexist with land use. Um, a lot of our sites are on cattle grazing and that's an amazing co coexistence, you know, a story there.
They can graze right up to the turbine. It's a real minimal impact. Other construction obviously is a large impact, so you need to manage the impacts there. But once you're at operational, they can really go back to how they were, uh, farming land previously with a bunch of new roads they can utilize as well.
Fantastic. Yeah. Let's talk about the turbines themselves. Mm-hmm. So over the last few years, the turbines, uh, generally have been getting larger and larger. Um, could you give for the listeners, you know, an idea of the size and scale of a typical turbine at the moment? Yeah, it definitely, um, there's, there's been a, it really has taken off for the last few years in sizes.
So we're looking at it at six to eight megawatt size machines at the moment. Um, and that's just a generator size. The other aspects of a turbine is a hub height, so the, the point where, I guess the center of the turbine is, and then blade length and all of those combined. To help yield as to what you, you would get from a site.
Um, so I think it's standard at the moment. We're looking around 150 meter hub height, um, blades around the 80 odd meters. Um, and that would be fairly standard at the moment. I think there's gonna be a natural technical limit as to how big you can get due to, mainly due to logistics. Um, I think because how do you get the, the blades and, and turbine sections to site and build them?
With the cranes available. Yes. So I think bigger always better from a wind yield, but you gotta deal with the, the realities of, of the world where you can't just keep going bigger and bigger. Mm-hmm. Um, and generator size the same. You know, you, you need the generator size to match the yield. You, you're harnessing with the, the tip, um, the tip length and, and the high height.
I mean, it's great having these windy sites, but, uh, yeah. Speaking to a another developer and we were talking about that. On windy days, which you typically get, that's when your, um, lifting equipment is getting close to, um, to capacity as well. So that sort of limits things the higher you that you get. Yeah.
Funny. Yeah. It's just trying to build a wind farm and then you have windy, windy there during the day with windy days. Yeah. And the D profile helps, so, yeah. Um, and it's, again, it's the. Wind sites. As I said, it's not the windiest, it's consistent wind, so it doesn't always mean they're shutting their cranes, but I won't, uh, pretend to be an expert in heavy lifts.
But that's, it's definitely a consideration. And often where they are, they're quite remote sometimes. So getting it's logistical, it's more of a logistical challenge than a, a technical. One, it's, it's great to see the big things being lifted, but it's the logistics of getting, I think we're gonna have 500 people on site for Gura Bayer.
There is no real local town nearby. So we're building a camp on site for that. Those sort of challenges to make sure we're getting that logistics right. And the road offsite roads is a, is key focus. How do we get the turbines from port to the site? Um, for Gura, we're having to go the long way via Charles Towers up Kennedy Development Road, that's in Northwest Queensland.
For those listening, um, we're upgrading three, three bridges. So again. Challenge, but a great outcome for the regional community that we're upgrading infrastructure that can be utilized from a legacy point of view as well. But that's often the logistics side of getting the, the big bits to site is, is probably the biggest challenge and the critical path often is how do you get the blades into once two site from the port and then the construction, putting it all together.
Not easy, but it's probably less risky than just getting the stuff there. Yeah. First we could talk about the cost and how costs have increased, and, uh, you'll be able to sort of verify this. So, someone mentioned to me the other day that their estimation was that wind projects have pretty much doubled over the last five years.
Is is there any truth in that, or what, what are you seeing? Um, without being a, it depends. Yeah. Um, each side is different. Doubling a. I'm sure if you chose a certain data point at a certain time, you could say that if you're pulling per megawatt rates. But, um, it really, it depends again on the size and scale, um, especially when you've got things like turbine size moving it, there is a few variables to it.
Really say that. There's definitely cost pressures though. I'd say the industry was expecting it to flatten out, but then I think there was. Some global, uh, there's a lot of global pressures across all supply chains that, that caused cost increases, whether it be inflation, supply chain, they were some big kind of corrections that happened in the market.
Um, and I don't think we've recovered from that yet, to be honest. So, um, that's definitely something that's impacted. Cost complexity as well. So getting bigger is good. From a wind yield point of view, makes it a bit harder and also scale. I think there's, there's a real efficiency of scale, but there's a complexity of scale.
Like I talked about. There's some fixed costs that really ramp up when you start going to bigger, bigger, bigger projects. It makes it overall more efficient, but there's still some pretty big costs you need to manage, like camps, logistics, remote sites. So all the easy sites are kind of gone in the country, so anywhere you're going now is pretty hard for various reasons.
So I think that's probably. Increase some of that, that cost that you're talking to there. I think generally we need to do more probably to, for the cost to come down. So there's a bit, there's an industry cut of scale. Yeah. And it's not just bigger sites, it's more sites we need to be doing more to. So the industry and the workforce and the skills can see that innovation, that factory line of, of work to really get that innovation and, and doing better, our localized 'cause.
It's not just a turbine cost, it's actually we're seeing, it's a balancer plant, we call it the BOP, civil and electrical balancer plant is, we're seeing a, a large increase there. So how do we get that better? How do we manage that? Um, is a key aspect. Some of the things we're doing is, is from a turbine point of view, working really closely with the OEMs and making sure we're focusing on that technological innovation.
So not just the bigger and better turbines, but there's different turbine models coming out all the time around the world. Australia's 1% as a global market on turbines, so we, we punch well above our weight to get that interest 'cause we're a good market, but we really need to engage and make sure we're getting the best.
For the Australian market outta that big global resource that is out there from the OEM point of view. How we do that is we, we keep a competitive process, so we go competitive for our turbines every time. So we keep it competitive as long as possible, which means we're always getting the best and the most recent model, rather than aligning with a certain provider, which is great from a certainty point of view, but then you lose that competitiveness and you really lose that ability to, to get the best price.
'cause as you mentioned, price affordability is key in the energy transition. We can't get lazy and just think, well, it costs what it costs. That's, we can't accept that as an industry because, uh, something else would come along and be more competitive as well. So we need to make sure we're focusing on cost keeping competition sounds obvious, but keeping competition that there's.
The procure process and then also split contracting. So that's something that's come around. It was innovative at the time. I think there's more and more people doing it, but it means not trying to wrap it all up to a single contractor of both turbine, um, and balance the plant and grid connection. It's split contracting allows you to really reduce that, that risk cost, that a contract or place on a project to, to bundle it all up for you.
Um, and that's really reduces some of the, the cost as well. It means you've gotta own the risk, but in the end of the day, owners kind of own the risk anyway no matter where it goes. If you try and contract out risk, you'll end up paying for it somewhere. Yes. Yeah. Are you looking at any, um, offshore wind opportunities?
Uh, no, not at the moment. We've, um, we have looked at it a lot. Um. And again, we're, we're not looking outside. I don't wanna talk too much about offshore wind, but I think when you think about where Sho Offshore wind has real place, it, it's when there aren't good onshore wind sites available because it's more expensive.
Right. And we're seeing wind profiles onshore that would match that we get offshore. So. We think there's so much opportunity on shore in Australia, 'cause we've got that landmass, so we'd find it. There's definitely a time and a place for offshore, possibly in, in the transition. But right now, a set affordability is key to the transition.
We, we've gotta go for the lowest cost, LCOE, lowest cost of electricity that is on shore wind at the moment, paired with, you know, solar hybrid sites. So wind battery, solar battery sites. That's, that's the low end of the cost curve and I think we'll be there for a while. If we do that right. And, um, outta that $30 billion portfolio, what's the next five years looking like?
What's the kind of, I mean, I don't know if you can talk to the spend or, or pass. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Um, yeah, so it's fairly Queensland focused. Um, we established ourselves in Queensland, in Kennedy, and we secured a number of sites, uh, a number of years ago due to the, the wind profile we're finding Queensland itself.
North Queensland's got a a really. Premium, um, wind resource due to that diagonal nature and the low correlation with other wind sites, uh, on the nm. Uh, so we've got one in, uh, north Queensland, um, 60 Ks, uh, west of Ingham called Gora Bay. Uh, that's about one $1.5 billion project that'll be closing. Um, uh, in the next three months we'll be looking at.
So that's really exciting. Um, that's the 500 people. Um, they'll take two to three years to, to build and connect to the grid. Um, really exciting. Um. And then that's happening. Yeah. Next year and they'll take you two, three years. And we've got the Bunga Wind Farm, which is in the Western Downs again about, um, 80 Ks to the, uh, east of Wan, um, in the Western Downs region.
That's, uh. That's 1.4 gigawatts, that's 200 odd turbines. Gura Bay, sorry, is 400 megawatts. Um, about 60 turbines that bunin is, is about, uh, 4 billion probably, uh, total. Um, so quite a large, um, huge project there. So, and that'll, that'll start construction in 2027. Um, and take again about two, three years to, to build and connect and get online.
That's got A-A-P-P-A that'll go through to power industrial loads in. In Gladstone, which is really exciting, the biggest PPA on the nm. So that'll keep us very busy over the next five years. So it's about 5 billion over the next five years, all in Queensland. So we're really excited about that. Yeah. Great.
And, and just for listeners, a PPA is power purchase agreement. Yeah, so that's, that's part of the way we, um, really get that certainty on a project and a power purchase agreement. We're, we're customer focused as a developer, so often, we'll, we'll start the engagement a lot earlier. Um, than when you normally would.
And because it's really important to understand where the demand is for your project and, and really helps with that, I guess, engagement and, and bankability from a project. Yeah. Um, have you faced, um, many good connection, uh, constraints? Um, what's the kind of approach been to that? Yeah, so I think, um, we talked about EPBC and I think when I, uh, joining WIN Lab in 2021, I think Grid was probably seen as the biggest challenge, uh, for the industry.
Um. And it's poised, it's been overtaken for, for now by EPVC. And, and maybe the reforms will, will take us back to normal transmission and grid. We'll be back front and center. I, I think there's two elements to, to grid connection. Um, there's the actual polls and wires connecting, and then there's a grid connection process.
The technical, um, GPS modeling, don't ask me what acronym stands for Andy. Um, that it's, uh. They're the kind of two aspects. Um, I think it is seen as, as a risk across the industry, but some time ago, WIN Lab kind of thought, okay, uh, it's a risk, but how do we turn this into opportunity? And, and we've done that through an internal team.
So we've got an internal grid team of engineers up to 10 people that look at the technical, um, grid connection requirements that GPS model modeling. Um. And they're able to do it in-house and really look at those, that system engineering that you need to do to connect to the grid, um, that really de-risks it for us.
'cause we can turn things around and move a lot quicker, um, and go through that process. Um, it means you can assess. Passes the grid that otherwise would be, you couldn't connect 'cause it's too weak. Um, and then actually make it, uh, make the grid stronger through to that innovation. So there's a technical kind of grid system modeling that innovation that you can get through different kits.
So grid forming inverters, um, you can add with batteries to, with the wind farm. So you actually making the system stronger and then. Following it through to actually deliver it on site. Um, because it's great modeling something, but then making sure it happens on site is another thing as well. So across those three elements, we've really turned it, we've flipped it on its head and turned it into an opportunity for us.
It's definitely something that's one of our strongest elements as Win Lab. Definitely got the history and wind, but now grid is definitely a real key, uh, feather in the bow and an is grow a buyer. It's North Queensland. No surprises there. North Queensland's a weak part of the, the grid just right at the top of the nm we were able to connect there for, and make the, the grid actually stronger due to the grid forming inverters, um, with the wind farm.
And that really allows us to connect into places that would be challenging for others. Mm-hmm. What further policy or regulatory reforms would kind of help? Um. Not just WIN lab, but the, the whole industry. Um, yeah. Um, I think I've talked about approvals, processes, approval. Approval, yeah. So EVBC. But, uh, stepping back, like I said, reform is one thing, implementation's another.
Mm-hmm. Um, and I might just digress to, I. I read a book recently, um, abundance Wise as a client, I know it's doing the rounds in Canberra and it was around some challenges in North America. Um, the USA where legislation that came about in the seventies to really to protect the environment for good reason was implemented and now they're seeing it.
That same legislation weaponized to stop development in generally democratic or left-leaning states because of all these controls that put in place for good reason. And actually they can't do things like high speed rail or renewable energy 'cause those constraints are being. Used in anger on the implementation side.
Um, and so I think we've, we run the risk of approaching the, the same place here in Australia where we're, we're trying to stop the bad stuff from happening, which is, we definitely don't want that happening. And I think there isn't a choice between renewables and damage to the environment. You can do both.
You can protect the environment, like I mentioned, through biodiversity, net gain and good outcomes for the environment while still achieving the energy transition and delivering big projects like wind farms. And so I guess that that dilemma that. As a client talked about in that book and trying to move away from those restrictions, I guess in, in those reforms, and making sure through implementation or reform that you're not constraining doing the stuff we need to do.
And I, I raised her as our gore recently. He was out for a speaking tour and I got the opportunity to have lunch and, and asked him, I said, what do you, what do you think about this dilemma? And he said, well, you've gotta find a way to do the good things we have to do. That's just sounds very simple, doesn't it?
Um, the vice president. But, um, so we've gotta find a way. To do the good things we have to do, whether it be through EPBC or or other reforms that we need through a good connection, we've gotta find a way to do it. And so I think mainly around that EPBC reforms I think is where we'd be looking at. And then, um, moving on from there, you're probably looking at the good connections and things like that, but I think the key focus in through at the moment is, is EPVC reforms, which I think got introduced.
So we'll see how that goes. Yeah. And what are you personally most excited about over the next few years? Uh, I think next those two projects are huge excitement. I think closing a project, we, I don't think a project's been closed this year, um, for wind in Australia. Um, and I keep saying the less we do each year, the more we have to the next year.
So the challenge gets greater from energy transition point of view to rest on market point of view and, and from a climate point of view. So. That, I guess closing Raby will be huge excitement. Um, that's been a long time coming. That's been, we've been working on that since 2019. Um, so that's, that's been a lot of work, a lot of effort, um, a lot of investment from our shareholders.
So it'd be great to, to get that through, to close and start building something. Um, and then obviously Bunin because project on the m that's a real exciting Yeah, it's huge thing to do. So I think, uh. I'm excited enough just by those two opportunities, um, in the next five years. And I think if I look back and, and see those being delivered, they'll be great.
But there's a lot of other things we're looking in our future portfolio, which is really exciting. Um, and kind of the next five years is really about delivery. And then, you know, looking at the Post 2030 world, uh, it's, it's. The market's really gonna have to think about what, how it's gonna deliver that, because there's gonna be a real need to move.
I know it feels like we're moving quickly now. It's not fast enough. So how are we gonna do things at scale and quickly in the 23rd is to deliver the market need. 'cause there's gonna be a lot of need for a new generation and it's quite the opportunity for the industry if we do this well. It's a huge opportunity.
But it's not gonna wait around for us. If we do it poorly or we do it inefficiently, there'll be another solution. Um, so I think it's about meeting that challenge, both in near term of delivering, getting projects away, doing it well, and off the back of that, it's, it's really ramping up and being match fit for the 23rd is where it's just gonna have to go to the next level.
Much fair. I like it. Yeah. Um, can you foresee a, a shortage of labor then at that point when it starts to. Probably not popular view, but it'd be a good problem to have, to be honest. 'cause there's not enough happening. Yes. So a shortage labor means we've actually got more projects closing than we know that we can resource.
So I welcome that day. But yeah, I think labor's, um, is something we need to consider, especially in Queensland with the Olympics coming are the infrastructure projects. Mm. That's gonna have to be a consideration. So definitely I think. Labor, it's the logistics side of of things. We need to be considering that and making sure, uh, we're looking ahead of that.
And I know both state and federal governments are looking at skills and wanna make sure the industry's investing in that skills development, capacity building. And that's why we work a lot with universities, uh, TAFE colleges in the regions of how can we make skill up that workforce to make sure they're seeing a pathway there and, and see that certainty.
The hardest thing at the moment is by not having that pipeline of work. It's very hard for people to see that they've got this ability to. Have a long term career when projects are kind of stopping, starting, not happening a lot. So as I said, it's. It's chicken or the egg. We can't kind of build this workforce ready to go.
We've gotta kind of get, get the project going through, get them the momentum going and get the demand. It's supply demand. So I don't think the workforce will be there till we have the demand and we just don't, I just don't think we've got that critical, massive demand of projects coming through the system yet.
How can the audience follow, uh, what win Love is doing? Our best way on LinkedIn? Probably if you're on there from a social media point of view. So that's a really good way to keep up to date. There's also a, a website, win lab.com and that's got links to all our project websites like and Erman and some of our other project portfolio.
That we're working on. So, and that'll have more details. You can sign up to, um, emails for newsletters around each project that we're working on, because that's one of the, the forms how we keep people in informed, not just local community, but regional stakeholders. So that's the best way to follow. Yeah.
Fantastic. Anything else that you'd like to share with the audience? No, just, that's, I guess, thanks for having me, Andy. Um, and I'm keen to chat as we move forward in the industry transition. Thanks so much, Nathan. Yeah. I'm sure the listeners and viewers will, uh, will thoroughly enjoy that. It's such a diverse conversation and, uh, we really, uh, commend you and your team for raising the bar as you put it, uh, on every aspect of, of the project.
So wish you all the best. Thanks, Andy. Cheers.
Thanks for tuning into today's episode of Exploring Clean Energy. I hope you enjoy the show. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. I'm keen to continue to bring you the best experts and most interesting projects, so if you have an exciting story to share, please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or email.
I'm Andy Marlin, and hopefully see you next time.