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In this episode, Pastor Wayne Walker, CEO of OurCalling interviews Obi Bussey, who discusses his journey from addiction and homelessness to becoming the executive director at the Gatehouse and later working with the Adult Rehabilitation Ministry (ARM). Obi shares his personal struggles with addiction, his multiple recoveries, and how his faith played a critical role in his ultimate recovery and decision to dedicate his life to helping others. He highlights the specific structure and policies of ARM, such as allowing clients unlimited returns to the program and focusing on recovery without work distractions in the initial months. The episode delves into the importance of compassion, spiritual guidance, and strong community support in recovery programs, and emphasizes the role of leadership and comprehensive services in ensuring effective rehabilitation.
https://www.armdallas.org/
https://www.ourcalling.org/
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https://www.armdallas.org/
https://www.ourcalling.org/
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- **00:56 & 01:14** Obi Bussey discusses his own struggle with addiction, homelessness, and initial quick recovery. He attributes his successful recovery to being introduced to Christ and the recovery process after multiple relapses.
- **02:42 & 03:12** Obi Bussey explains his progression from a client at the Gatehouse, to an aide, then assistant director, and finally, becoming the executive director for 27 years. He emphasizes his dedication to giving back to others what was given to him freely, driven by a sense of lifelong indebtedness and gratitude.
- **04:03 & 04:12** Details about the Adult Rehabilitation Ministry (ARM) where Obi worked after retirement. He explains the structure of the program which includes long-term treatment phases and relapse intervention, highlighting its emphasis on not working in initial months to focus on recovery.
- **05:33** Discussion about ARM's policy of allowing clients unlimited returns to the program, which contrasts with other recovery programs which may not permit returns or limit the number of returns.
- **06:42 & 07:04** Obi stresses the importance of love, acceptance, and spiritual guidance in recovery programs to exemplify Christ-like forgiveness and provide a genuine sense of belonging, arguing against recovery models that lack these aspects.
- **07:55** The transcript covers the value of allowing people to return to recovery programs after a relapse, highlighting that such policies can be critical for true recovery.
- **10:13** The transcript addresses the inspirational impact of having program alumni return to motivate current participants by demonstrating successful recovery and normal life progression.
- **14:40** Analysis of effective and ineffective recovery programs, emphasizing the importance of strong leadership, comprehensive programming that includes clinical, spiritual, and practical support to address the needs of individuals holistically.
- **19:35 & 24:50** Challenges and missteps in integrating housing as part of recovery programs are discussed, noting the problems like lack of adequate supervision and the pitfalls of high expectations without support.
- **25:26** The list of needs for someone entering housing is discussed including the need for community support, adequate resources, and continued access to recovery and support services.
- **31:38 & 32:46** The importance of pausing other aspects of life to focus solely on recovery, the significance of having participants contribute financially to their recovery process, and the role of appropriate representation in recovery programs based on racial and cultural identities.
- **44:48 & 45:22** The value of sharing personal recovery stories to inspire and guide those still struggling with addiction, emphasizing the importance of peer support and relatability in the recovery process.
Creators & Guests
Host
Wayne Walker
CEO and Pastor Wayne Walker serves as the CEO and Pastor to the homeless at OurCalling. In 2001, Wayne, along with his wife Carolyn, started serving the homeless community in Dallas. They founded OurCalling in 2009. During his youth, Wayneās family actively pursued the scriptural commandment to ālove your neighbor as yourselfā by modeling the life of Jesus to scores of foster children whose own origins represented generations of human brokenness, dysfunction, sexual exploitation, and abuse. Early exposure to these destructive forces set him on a path to recognize the long-term effects of trauma, which often lead to homelessness. While completing his Masterās Degree in Cross-Cultural Ministry from Dallas Theological Seminary, Wayne befriended and ministered to men and women in the homeless community. During that time he began to establish personal, discipleship-oriented relationships with homeless individuals, many in the same urban setting where he and his family continue to work today.
What is OurCalling - Our podcast about homelessness?
A Podcast by OurCallingāthe goal is to be a learner. What can we learn about serving those experiencing homelessness? Even though we have years of experience, can we step back, take a fresh look, and rethink everything we know? OurCalling is a Christian nonprofit (501 c3) serving the homeless community throughout Dallas County in Texas. Our team helps people get to know Jesus and get off the streets every day. Last year, we helped individuals exit homelessness over 1,300 times. We have a facility in downtown Dallas, and our street outreach teams visit over 4,000 locations throughout the county. We serve about 10,000 individuals experiencing homelessness each year. We partner with the most amazing organizations and recognize that we are stronger when we work together.
I'm Wayne Walker with Our Callings, our podcast. And today, I'm gonna be talking with Obi Bussey, who's been working in the recovery world and recovery ministry for many, many years to learn from him what they do, how they do it, and how it can impact your community. Who is our calling? What does our calling do to help the homeless? The nonprofit.
Speaker 1:We care with dignity. Our calling
Speaker 2:Can't help but think about the definition of Christian
Speaker 1:We connect with our calling
Speaker 2:to our calling. To our calling. We build community with integrity.
Speaker 1:Our calling. This is our calling and our podcast, a word on the streets about homelessness. Okay. So, Obi, tell us tell me, who is Obi Bussey? Like, what has the lord done with your life and ministry over the last 30 years?
Speaker 2:Past 30 years, I will start with this. I have an addiction history. My sobriety date is August 5, 1992, so I'm coming up on 31 years clean. So that's a big deal Yeah. For me.
Speaker 2:And so if I back back to the genesis of that, I struggle with addiction and took me to homelessness. And I came through places like this and but thank God that my addiction process was quick. And I was only struggling severely in that area for for about a year. So I went through other shelters and stuff like that. And so this ministry came to the shelter I was at and brought me back.
Speaker 2:And so through that, I was introduced to Christ, and I was introduced to the recovery process. One of the things for me, my path wasn't straight. So I had 5 quick relapses between 1989 and 1992. And so the last one was August 1, 1990, one. And I stayed out there 4 days, and I came back.
Speaker 2:And I've been clean ever since.
Speaker 1:Praise god. Yeah. And you went from a guy that was on the street dealing with addiction to now the last chunk of your life, the biggest portion of your life you used to serve those. So how what were you you you were at The Gatehouse. Right?
Speaker 1:Golden Gate Missionary Baptist Church, started this ministry called the gatehouse, changed names.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Right? But what was your role there?
Speaker 2:I came through first as a client, then I was an aide, then I became the assistant director. And in 1997, I became the executive director. And I've done that for 27 years. Up until, June of last year is when I retire. And so I spent 27 years dedicating my life trying to give back to others what God had freely given to me.
Speaker 2:And I just believe as it as the Bible talks about in Romans 12, that's your reasonable service. 1 of the deacons said, man, you owe, and you'll never be able to fully pay that debt back. So I'm just giving back.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. You owe, and you'll never be able to pay it back.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Wow. You know, Paul says, I consider my life rubbish compared to better to knowing Christ.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Right? In the Greek, he uses a term that actually means dung.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Right? And he spends the rest of his life focused on how to lead people to Jesus and and talk to them. Absolutely. It sounds to me like you've had that kind of you had that kind of road to Damascus moment. At some point, you came to Christ, and then God changed you from what you were to what you are and what you have been, which is leading other people into
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Sobriety and to walk with him.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Now tell me, ARM. Right? It's the name of it. What does that mean, and what does the organization do? Now that you retired from.
Speaker 2:Right? Adult rehabilitation ministry. K. And what that is is a long term treatment facility for for men that is in 3 phases. 6 months, they go through what is called primary care.
Speaker 2:One of the unique things that a lot of people do it now, but back in the day when it was done, the 1st 4 months, the clients don't work. That's when they go through discipleship. They go through treatment where they are trying to get themselves together and find out who they are. And then after 4 months, they go out and start looking for work. Then they spend those 2 months doing that.
Speaker 2:So then they have a aftercare track where you can stay an additional 6 months and save money. One of the beautiful things about that model, the clients leave, and they have several $1,000 saved up. They have a car that is recommended that they pay cash for, and then they move into their own place. The second third part is what they call relapse intervention. So if one of the clients go out and relapse happens, they can come back, get reassessed, get back on track, and go back out there and try it again.
Speaker 1:So they can come back?
Speaker 2:They can come back.
Speaker 1:Is there a limit to that?
Speaker 2:There is not. When I, you know, like I said, I served for 27 years, but I fell out 5 times. And a lot of times people would tell me, well, Obi, how many times you gonna let somebody come back? And I would always tell them this. There have to be more than 5 so that I won't be a hypocrite.
Speaker 2:You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you never know at which one of those times somebody's gonna get it.
Speaker 2:They would have said it was 3. I wouldn't be sitting here with 30 years clean and doing all of the things that I'm doing. And so each person's time is their time.
Speaker 1:You know, that's interesting because it's in some ways, that's unique. There is ministries, and I can think of a couple of them right now off the top of my head. I won't mention them, but you can never come back. There are these long term recovery programs, but if for any reason you find yourself back in need of their program, you're done.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I don't wanna be critical. I just don't think that's Christ like. Bible says that we give forgive 70 times 7. You you know?
Speaker 2:And if you can't come back to a ministry or to a church, where is it that you can go? I believe ministries ought to be home. Yeah. And so when I came back, they received me like I was coming home. And because they loved me, and they put me on the right track and and introduced me to Christ.
Speaker 2:And so, man, if they would have rejected me, that would have changed my whole perspective of the relationship with Christ.
Speaker 1:I love when people come back here. I absolutely love it. You know, we want them to be successful and grow in their relationship with the Lord and find sobriety and find a healthy community. Doesn't always happen.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I believe that relapse is part of recovery. It's just part of that process. Nobody stops sinning in that moment. Weird story. I was in a parking lot south of, Military Parkway with this guy as a addict using every day, and he was just bawling.
Speaker 1:Just couldn't control himself, just sobbing. And this guy is probably 45 years old. And I was talking to him. I said, tell me what it is right now that's making you cry, and he goes, my mom won't take me back.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And
Speaker 1:she won't even let me come visit her. And, he gets her on the phone for some reason, and, it's kind of a silly story, but he gets her on the phone and I start talking to her, and I said, well, why can't he come visit you? And she starts talking about a relationship with Christ as though once you walk with Jesus, you're healed and you will never sin again. She even told me, she said, I stopped sinning. I haven't sinned in at least 15 years.
Speaker 1:She told me this on the phone. And I said, are you proud of that? She goes, yeah. I'm proud of that. And I said, well, welcome back, sister.
Speaker 1:Pride's a sin. Yeah. You know, we will always continue Absolutely. To struggle. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so to me, it is so beautiful when someone trusts us enough to walk back in here and say, guys, this is my family. This is who I love. This is who I know walked with me before. Mhmm. Will you please walk with me again?
Speaker 1:We had a guy just got out of jail this week. He's been locked up for, like, 8 years, and he walked in our doors because his life is now he's in a halfway house, which is good. Mhmm. He's walking with the Lord, which is good. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:He wants to know what the next step of his life end, but he still knows we're safe. Absolutely. A a few months ago, a woman comes in here. She's a prostitute. She's been beaten down.
Speaker 1:She's been beaten up. Her eyes all swollen. Her life is in shambles. But when I see her across the room, I run to her and just hold her in my arms because she is a sister that we know and we love. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And we haven't seen her in many years. And to me, it's just so beautiful that she would choose to come back here and and give us another opportunity to walk with her and to love with her.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And when we talk about coming back, you know, sometimes people come back because they have relapsed. Mhmm. But brokenness and pain comes in a lot of different forms. So we have an alumni, program where where the guys just can come back and the ladies, you know, we have women for a while where they can just come back and just stop by, have dinner, you know, or or just fellowship with with the other people.
Speaker 2:And and that's beautiful. But, also, a large group of them just come back to give back. Mhmm. Because so that the people can see them. It's a wonderful thing when you when you can see somebody doing what you're trying to do.
Speaker 2:You know, the, the the big book, the NA text says this thing is about attraction rather than promotion. So when the instructor is just talking about, oh, you do this right here, Jesus love you, and you can have these things. But when you see a live model of someone coming back and groups of them coming back on a daily basis that was once in your situation, but now they own their own home, they're married, they they own businesses or working. And, you know, that's the model. And so that's the model that they use at arm is that that that men and women would come back and share what was so freely given to them.
Speaker 1:I'm a pause this for a second. Everything going okay? K. A few years ago, a church came to me and they said, we totally screwed up. We need some help.
Speaker 1:We don't know what to do. Okay. I I don't know the answers. But here's what they did. They saw these men and women struggling on the streets.
Speaker 1:They saw some people with addiction, and they thought, hey, the best thing to do is to give them a house. Give them a place of safety and then hope that they can go to church and get community and get better. So they rented an apartment, and they moved 4 homeless guys into this apartment. K? What do you think happened?
Speaker 2:Oh, it was bad. It was bad. We went through Orm went through all of those mistakes early on. It was just because what what happened was how the program really got started. 1 of the mission groups would go out, like, probably come here from churches and feed and pray and teach bible study, whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2:Well, they found a few of us. I've been one of them that was somewhat faithful and and coming back. They're like, well, we need to start inviting y'all to church. Then they got a house. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so all of those mistakes.
Speaker 1:And Just put them all together and hope it gets better. Together and But it's harm reduction.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And in there, being naive, it's it's, I think the store is still there. It's called Robert's ready to wear in South Dallas on Martin Luther King. And they wanted us to have suits, so they opened up an account. And all you had to do was just go over there and say, I'm from Golden Gate, and you could get whatever you wanted.
Speaker 2:Wow. How you think that went where we could just go over there and say, I'm from Golden Gate. I need a suit. I need a belt, I need a shirt, I need some ties, I need some shoes.
Speaker 1:Man, I bet y'all were having a heyday selling belts and ties and shoes.
Speaker 2:100%. So so so they learned. Yes. But but their love and their heart, they didn't stop when they made those mistakes. They just learned and they grew until they got it right.
Speaker 2:And I don't think that ministry is for everybody
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And for every church. Yeah. But I just believe they love and they heart was big enough that it overcame those mistakes
Speaker 1:that they made. I love when someone has great intentions. It's kinda like when you see a guy on the street. You wanna do something, and you don't know what to do, and he's asking for money. People have great intentions.
Speaker 1:They wanna do something. Mhmm. But sometimes the something is neutral, doesn't hurt. It's just just something you can do. It's not positive.
Speaker 1:It's not negative. But sometimes it's something we do, like, when helping hurts, it is completely negative, and it can cause bigger problems. And then you find yourself like, this church had themselves in a liability issue because all kinds of crime was happening in there that that these people had damaged the the apartment, and now the church is up for that. One of their church members who was a recovered addict was going over there regularly, then he started getting involved with them using drugs, and then they brought prostitutes in there. It was just a total total I don't know.
Speaker 1:Collabry a collapse and chaos. What is the difference between, a healthy recovery program and an unhealthy recovery program with let's just say men living in a home. Right? Because we we put a lot of people into recovery programs all over the country, and some of them are great. Some of them, we will never use again.
Speaker 1:But from your perspective as a guy who's led them and seen them and evaluated other programs, I know you're doing a lot of that now, what is the difference between a healthy program and an unhealthy program?
Speaker 2:Healthy to me is when you have healthy leadership that has a clear vision and boundaries for the for the program. And unhealthy is when you have well meaning, unhealthy, or uneducated, with the knowledge to disciple or to provide recovery with people, and it becomes all love or all punitive. And you see both models in the in in the community all the time where some are just so rigid that it's just punitive, almost abusive. Mhmm. And then you see some to where it's just love, and we just wanna help you.
Speaker 2:And the whole process is unhealthy because people don't get clean or they don't sustain sobriety for any length of time. But I think it starts with the leadership. Is the leadership healthy themselves? Are they knowledgeable or educated in the therapeutic process to know what they're doing to be able to facilitate recovery.
Speaker 1:You just said something to me that's just mind blowing. You talked about the therapeutic process. Most people that get into this don't think about this is actually professional work. Like, I just love people, and I love Jesus, and it'll get better. They don't think about this is actually a job that requires professional skill set.
Speaker 1:It's like if you opened a restaurant. You gotta have permits. You gotta be able to pass health code inspections. You gotta know how to cook food where people don't get sick, and you gotta know how to order the food and pay for the food and deliver it on time. When you run a program like this, you really need credentials.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Need training. You need programs, and it's not just let's put a bunch of people in a house and pray for them and hope it gets better. I was talking I've talked to a couple of programs where, you know, like you were saying, they have weak leadership
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And or they don't have any resources. Mhmm. They can't afford to pay anybody, so they pick one of the guys in the program and, okay, you're the manager now.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Or they find someone and pay them $8 an hour to kinda run the thing on the weekends, and of course, all hell breaks loose. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I think it's I think the the best mix is when you have someone that if it's faith based, that loves the lord, that knows how to disciple, that the biblical aspect is there, the traditional recovery aspect is there, and the clinical aspect is there. And what we used at OM were all 3 models were infused in the process at one time. So you was getting someone that understood the word of God and was teaching you bible study. You also got the 12 step model, and you got the clinical, And all of that's going on at the same time, so so every need of the man is being met.
Speaker 1:So when Jesus said to love the Lord, he was asked what's the greatest commandment.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:He said to love the Lord with all your heart, your soul, and your mind.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Right? One of the gospels also says your strengths. Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:There are multiple parts to us.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And with an addict, our struggles are not just with a chemical Mhmm. Or an activity. It's also spiritual. I mean, even the big book. Right?
Speaker 1:It says, you know, I I don't know your God, but I cannot deny the change in you. Right. Right? You know, Bill's story. You've got chemical challenges with the brain.
Speaker 1:Right? You've got spiritual issues, but you also have physical.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And to look at those clinical things as a priority you know, I'll I'll give you an example. I'll wear glasses. Right? And if I don't wear my glasses, I don't see clearly. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:If I don't wear my glasses, you don't wanna drive with me or ride with me or you don't wanna be driving near me.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:I look at that the same way as, like, psych meds.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Right? And I say this as a guy. I'm on psych meds. Right? I come from a family with a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1:I myself am diagnosed. I see a psychiatrist. I see a counselor. Mhmm. It helps me stay healthy.
Speaker 1:If I don't take my meds, I don't think clearly.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. If I
Speaker 1:don't wear my glasses, I can't see clearly.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And
Speaker 1:if we don't address the clinical needs, no matter how much of this we give someone about walking with Jesus Right. Or how much we give with this about power and the holy spirit
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Or how much we give to this about, you know, the 12 step process, right, and how we need to, you know, come to acknowledge that our lives are unmanageable. Right? If we can't think clearly, it's like a a a diabetic that doesn't get insulin.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:He's gonna stroke out on the floor while I'm trying to pray for him because his body cannot handle the chemical imbalance within there. So what do you guys do, or what do you think should be done from a clinical perspective?
Speaker 2:I think you need to have licensed people that's available. We had LPCs. We had a clinical director who had a doctorate. Mhmm. And and we had, interns.
Speaker 2:So we have professionals providing the clinical aspect of the treatment. Yep. And and we would have, clinical meetings with with all 3 parties in there weekly. So when when I would meet with the team, I wanted a perspective from each of the dynamics where we would be looking at the whole person. Because a lot of times, what the, what the clinical aspect, they may have caught some things that, you know, the 12 step person didn't catch or vice versa.
Speaker 2:And so we got a whole panoramic view of the individual. And I just think a lot of times when you're talking about what don't work, a lot of times people will start treatment centers or halfway houses, and they would use just one model, and they will criticize the other ones.
Speaker 1:Oh, that
Speaker 2:no money. All bible, and we're not doing no AA. You know, we ain't doing that. You know, we're not having no professional, Jesus would do it all. Or you get the traditional AA NA people, they don't believe in any of that and and vice versa.
Speaker 2:And I just think when you're close minded in your approach, you hinder the client.
Speaker 1:One of the things we do here and, you know, we we have a bunch of software. We collect a 100 data points on someone to evaluate what's the best Mhmm. Exit plan for them. And we have about 700 placement agencies. We put someone in, and we put a lot of people in in your place, is we actually track retention.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Does it work? Right. Are they still clean and sober? Are they still in a program, or do they get ejected?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Kicked out, or do they leave on their own? Mhmm. You know, give somebody the finger and walk out the door. Absolutely. Right?
Speaker 1:Or do they graduate and how they're doing? If would as we track this data, we're seeing that many different agencies have a much higher success rate than others.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, primarily, across the board, that higher success rate are those people that focus on the heart, the mind, and the body. Absolutely. Right? To me, it it if you don't, you're just it's like a doctor that just gives you good food. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But doesn't give you medicine. Doesn't address the bullet hole in your leg. Right? The food's gonna make it better. Well, nutrition is important.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. There's a bullet hole in his leg as well. Yes. To me, and you and I talk about this offline, is some of our frustrations in just a housing first approach or, you know, a harm reduction approach. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It is an amazing program for some people.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And the the concept, the theory of Housing First is a great theory. Mhmm. That if you put someone in housing and provide full wraparound support services, that's good. Yes. But there's a problem.
Speaker 1:And what's the big problem? There is no wraparound support services. And so what do you see as missing? Because you you served on the mayor's committee. Right?
Speaker 1:The mayor put together this big committee. Smartest people on the sea were on there. You're on there with a gun bunch of our friends, and and you were talking about housing first. And we're not here to dog it. Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But what do you see as missing in support services for those people in addictions or trying to get off an addiction or recently recovered from an addiction? What's missing?
Speaker 2:That I was probably the only person on the committee that at least voiced both sides. Right? If you just get a room full of CEOs and they gonna solve the homeless crisis or any crisis, and there's nobody speaking from the ground level up, you you miss the perspective of the people. And and that was the biggest thing that I've seen, and I was so grateful to be a part of it. But I was speaking from another another place.
Speaker 2:They were, I think, too high level in their in their approach. And sometimes, unlike you, I see you out there with the people. Sometimes you get the people. I'm not sure they even touching the people on a regular basis. So how how can you speak with intelligence about how to really help these people?
Speaker 2:And I think that's how you get to housing first and those types of things. Just take these people, put them in the house, and, oh, we're gonna give you HUD voucher and put you in an apartment, and you check-in with a case manager once a month. That ain't gonna work. That's not gonna work.
Speaker 1:I mean, they would take every single person that goes to ARM and has ever been in ARM and skip the recovery process and put them in housing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And and we know what would happen. Absolutely. They'd still be in chaos. They'd still be using. They'd still many of them would be dead.
Speaker 1:Right? They're gonna overdose. They're gonna die. And, you know, we and you have known hundreds of people that have got into housing and overdosed and died. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Even that were clean and sober before they got into housing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because once they got in there, they didn't have accountability.
Speaker 2:Didn't have community.
Speaker 1:Didn't have community. Didn't have support. Didn't have a network.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Because when someone gets into housing, case management is awesome. Mhmm. But a case manager can't do everything.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:If you had a list of what people need when they get into housing, what would that list look like?
Speaker 2:1, if they were 1, that they would have community. And the community will consist of if you are say you're faith based, that you are a part of a body of believers where you would have that, that you would have the the institution of case management. You would have a group of your peers. They support, I believe, the therapeutic of value of 1 addict helping another is without parallel. That that you have some people that come from where you come from that's still walking with you in that process, that you would that that you would have all the elements of the community and not just putting you in there because isolation is dangerous.
Speaker 2:And a lot of times, when you take a person off the street, you have a homeless community. Right? And and it's strong. You see that every day that the homeless but if you extract that person and now you put him in a in an apartment, he can't take that community with him. It's not transferrable.
Speaker 2:So you gotta help that person to build a transferrable community. Mhmm. And we don't build relationships well when you come from that. So that barrier of being introduced to another community and friendship is difficult and slow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:They don't have community. They don't have addiction recovery support services, life skill classes, bible studies. You know, they don't have the things that we know are necessary for us to be healthy. Right. And I'm not saying we know because we're experts of homelessness.
Speaker 1:I'm saying we know because that's what you and I need.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:We need community. We need to be involved with people that believe like us, that encourage us, that sharpen us, that hold us accountable, that say, hey. Don't do that. Right. You know?
Speaker 1:We need people in our lives that are sharpening us and are walking with us. We also need access to basics like food.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Right? We see so many people get into housing programs that don't even have groceries available to them unless they're walking down the street half a mile or a mile or on a bus for 2 hours to carry a box of food from a food pantry back to figure out how to cook on their 2nd floor apartment. Right. Right? While they're struggling with their addiction
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:While they have and they're in the worst neighborhoods in town. Right? It's just the nature.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so they've got dealers on one side, a mom with 6 kids on the other side. They're struggling all day. They don't have furniture. They're sleeping during the day. They can't sleep at night.
Speaker 1:It's too quiet. It's not comfortable, and then they get that one visit once a month from a case manager, and there should be no surprise when it fails.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Now there are people that live in your neighborhood and mine that that would be a good solution for him. But the guy that's shooting Fentanyl 7 times a day, that's not good for him. No. That woman that's prostituting to support her crack addiction, that's not okay. Now earlier, you talked about ARM.
Speaker 1:You said something I'm gonna go back to. You said we used to have women. Mhmm. Now what is the value or the challenge of having multiple genders in a recovery program?
Speaker 2:One of them, if you don't go into it with knowledge, like you were saying, you had police officers. The women were back there, and they were behind glass, and they were safe. Mhmm. A lot of times when you put men and women on in the same campus with no structure, no security, and and they're used to surviving one way. All of those survival instincts and natural nature takes place, and it just doesn't work unless you have the proper structure.
Speaker 2:You know, we meant well, and I see a lot of them. I know a lady now with several people where they will take men and women off the street and put them in the same house and just have somebody, the house manager, come over there and they and they go. And I'm like, that model, I you know, I'm not judging. I just don't see that working long long term, but we learned that, you know what? We have went about 20 years being very successful with men, and our success rate was very high.
Speaker 2:But when we brought women on the same campus and tried to use the same model and didn't understand that women have unique needs that we were not addressing because we was addressing them like men, and it didn't work. And so we had to pause that and know that we couldn't use the same model, and it just didn't work. And so we learned. And so so they stopped doing that, And now they're only, just using men in the program.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the ways we define homelessness is a state of disconnection.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You disconnected from family, from friends, from money, from a house, from all this stuff. Disconnection. And that disconnection causes trauma and, you know, people are homeless for any time they're experiencing major trauma, PTSD, all these other challenges. And we also see that some of their biggest challenges are interpersonal relationships.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:They don't know how to interact with people. Right? Well or their interactions are based on kind of a survival instinct, survival or, you know, a poverty mindset. So I can imagine if you put multiple genders in the same community that the challenges of interpersonal relationships. I would imagine even if ARM was an all women's ministry and all of a sudden you started, you know, bringing men onto the campus, that you might have had some of the same challenges, which is because, you know, we've got partners like Care Center Ministries.
Speaker 1:They have separate buildings
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And they're, like, 30 miles apart, you know Mhmm. For men and for women. And it to me, I just feel like, you know, you're growing with your peers. Pause. Don't think about a boyfriend.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Don't think about a girlfriend. Don't think about a job. Don't think about how am I gonna live by myself and survive. Don't think about how am I gonna get groceries. Don't think about how am I gonna get along with my neighbors.
Speaker 1:Don't think about how I'm gonna manage my new lifestyle or apply for a job. Pause, and work on you. That's one of the things I've loved about your program over the years. It's pause from all that, and it's really focused on you. Your program has another feature that I think is not completely unique, but in some ways, stands out a little bit, and that is that it's not free.
Speaker 1:We have a lot of programs, Put this guy in this recovery program, and it's and it's free. You just put them in there. There's no cost to you. There's no cost to them. They may be in.
Speaker 1:They may be out. Whatever. Your program is a cost. And I remember when I first started getting guys in there 15, 20 years ago, trying to get them over there. I what?
Speaker 1:It costs money. I don't know how we're gonna do that. How are we gonna pay for that? And at first, you know, and I think from a ministry perspective, we're like, why don't everybody just love Jesus and take these guys in? Then you realize it cost, but then you realize that if you don't pay something for something Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You don't value it. Mhmm. So tell me the reason behind the cost. How much does it cost?
Speaker 2:Or how much does it cost? $700 a month.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And what's the purpose behind that, and what does it do?
Speaker 2:1, I I back up. The end result was it became that the individual and their family has skin in the game. And we found out when we started to charge that the family was more invested. Because if mom was paying the $700 a a month, although that's a small cost for treatment, but the population we were getting, that's a sacrifice for that family to be doing that. So they were more invested.
Speaker 2:What for the first 20 years or the 35 years of the ministry, it was free. The church could afford it, got to a point where the program outgrew the ability of the church to be able to fund it. So we start charging because it was a financial need to sustain the program, but it ended up being a benefit for the skin in the game. Now that was difficult at first because now you're evaluating someone that they could not pay. So there are still scholarships there to where, okay, we would take this amount of clients that we will that can't afford to pay.
Speaker 2:But they gotta meet these criterias of willingness and commitment and and all of that nonmonetary things. But, hey, if you're gonna get this scholarship, you need to understand that you are receiving this, and there's some reciprocation for your behavior and your commitment that you're gonna have to have. Because sometime when things free, you don't appreciate it. So we worked real hard to make sure that they understood that if you can't pay and we letting you in, you need to learn how to appreciate it. Nobody's gonna hold this over your head, but, you know, we we're taught.
Speaker 2:I used to tell them all the time. When even when you will small baby and somebody give you something, your parents will say, now what are you supposed to say? Thank you. And that thanks is demonstrated in different ways. It's not guilt, but you need to learn appreciation, and that's big.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially coming from a community that have the mindset of handouts. And so they're not taught or have lost that appreciation to be grateful.
Speaker 1:Wow. So on the vein of handouts, there's a lot of so when we started, like most people, we were on the street serving sandwiches and blankets and hot food and loving on people, and there's a lot of that that's good. Mhmm. In the last couple of weeks, I talked to a group in Wisconsin, a a group in, I don't know, Indiana that's doing the same thing. They're going out, loving on people, and and, you know, passing out resources, and that's good.
Speaker 1:When you see an addict and they're struggling in their addiction and all you can give them is a blanket and a sandwich and a prayer, you were an addict homeless on the street. What what value is that? And and what what would you incur how would you encourage groups to do something to keep doing that or do something different?
Speaker 2:To keep doing it. I I believe that the the your seed planters. Mhmm. And when when people go out and they do those random acts of kindness, you may not know how to appreciate the person on the street, but you just you know, that's just getting you one step closer because you need that. If it's cold and and you don't have a blanket and somebody give you a blanket whether you appreciate it or not at the time, you needed that blanket or you may not have survived.
Speaker 2:Right? And you're hungry and they coming and giving me the food. You you know, the the big one back in the day was big heart. Yeah. I remember.
Speaker 2:You know, big heart. You know, no. So no matter where we were, you know, you gonna walk the miles to get there to Big Heart, and you stand there, you know, and get your sandwich and So Big Heart or whatever.
Speaker 1:Pause real quick. So Big Heart was a ministry, ended up ending up in downtown Dallas Mhmm. Kinda couple blocks behind city hall.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And they would give out a lot of resources, love on people.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Heart was the last name of the guys that started it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And and the guy was big guy, and so they called it Big Heart Ministries
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Which was cool. So, anyway, they would give out stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and so that that sustained us because whatever money that we would have, you know, obviously, we're gonna spend it on drugs or, alcohol. But had resources like that not been available, I don't know if I would have made it until the time the I got to the time where I was ready when this ministry came, and so they sustained me. So I believe that that ministry should continue to do that, but without expectation. You're just doing this because this is what you believe that God has laid upon your heart and your seed planner.
Speaker 2:And, you know, some water, you know, some see the increase, Some see the harvest. And that is one of the hardest things in ministry is because on one hand, we all wanna be the harvesters. You you know? And that's okay. Everybody say, oh, fish.
Speaker 2:You you wanna see it. I know I did. And and I had to learn that, you know, I'm a seed planner. Oh, I'll see somebody come through the ministry 4, 5 times and don't get clean. Then they go over to another ministry and they get clean and they'd be like, man, if it wasn't for this.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, now I done I helped you for 6 years straight, and you you you see what I'm saying? But it wasn't my time. But even if someone got clean under my leadership, I just was the harvester. It doesn't mean that I planted, I watered, and I seen the harvest. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And that's a big thing in ministry is learning that, you know what, each one of those three principles are vitally important. And god may just have you on as a waterer or the harvester. You you know? Or the waterer. You don't you don't you rarely get to do all 3.
Speaker 1:I I think it's good that we don't see so much harvest because then we'll start to think it's us, and we get a big head about it. You know? And, you know, I just pray that the Lord continues to knock me off my feet and keep me humble. Otherwise, we would, you know, look how good Obi is. He's awesome.
Speaker 1:He's the best. He's brought all these people to recovery.
Speaker 2:When I went through that, I had a mentor tell me I was probably about 10 years in, and he said, Obi, I'm scared for you. I'm like, what do you mean? He said, man, you've had so much success early in your ministry. I'm not sure you're gonna be able to handle when you don't see success like this. I think you're going to evaluate your your life based on this.
Speaker 2:And he's like, I'm not trying to discourage you, but this is not gonna be the length of your ministry. And he was so right. Mhmm. When I stopped seeing that, I did not know how I went into depression, actually. It it I went into depression.
Speaker 2:I went into burnout. I had to go I had to go into therapy. I had to go on a sabbatical, and and it was only because I wasn't seeing success the way that I did in the beginning of my ministry.
Speaker 1:Wow. Those are some good words that I need to hear, and, hopefully, a lot of people watching us need to hear. Mhmm. Now you're saying that people that go out and pass out stuff should still be doing it. Right?
Speaker 1:What how could they also convince someone using that relational equity that they're building by passing out stuff? How could they have that conversation to encourage someone to actually seek sobriety?
Speaker 2:It's to if if you are the one that's doing the blankets or or the food, that you would have referrals, that you would know some agencies, that you can point them into that direction and keep reaffirming that. You know? And, like, hey. Did you get a chance to call? You you still wanna go, but have a message pass.
Speaker 2:Jesus loves you and here's this blanket. But to be offering resources, sending people to places like this. Hey. We're gonna give you this to get through tonight, but you need to go to our calling in the morning and get you something to eat and and whatever services they have, but to continue to be pointing toward, a better path.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that's important because we didn't do that for years. You know, when I when I look at someone street feeding and I hear, you know, peers saying how bad they are, I mean, that's how we started. Mhmm. We were serving meals on the street Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And start and then quickly realized people need a lot more than food.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And we didn't have answers. Right. You know, even when COVID happened before COVID, we were sending people to shelters.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Shelters are full. Our shelters are full almost every day in Dallas. And So we didn't have answers even then. We had to come up with all these recovery treatment programs all over the country that we could get people in
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That were very specialized because if not, all we're giving out is sandwiches. Right. I remember one day, a guy walks up to me, tears coming down his face as I'm on the streets hand you know, passing out food. And he looks at me and he says, do do you really think that sandwich is gonna fix my problems? And it just hit me like a ton of bricks.
Speaker 1:You know, we've gotta be able to do more than that. Mhmm. So what about from your perspective as a recovered addict, what can someone do to help an addict just pursue being sober? Because so many of the folks we see, they've lost hope. Sobriety is not an option.
Speaker 1:It'll never get better. I'm just gonna keep using till I die under this bridge. You know, what I know we're waiting for the Holy Spirit to do a spark in their life. Mhmm. Right?
Speaker 1:But what what what can we say to someone who's an addict?
Speaker 2:I think sometimes share our story. You you know, have recruit people on the team that have the same experience so that they can share that, hey. I've been through this, and I know where you are. And to be able to share with that person truth and love and redemption. And so early on, like, when on when they were coming, it was just, you know, god fearing people coming, and they did not have people that understood where the truth of of recovery themselves.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And they just had love, and and they didn't have that. So I think if they would get some people on the team that have been through it themselves
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And and to continue to keep pointing. You know, when I learned early on, and I know we come into a close, but first, you have to meet a person's physical needs, whether that's food, shelter, the blankets, whatever. Right? Then that just opens the door to a person where they will hear you. Because you first gotta meet someone physical needs, then you can minister or address their physical needs.
Speaker 2:Because first thing that people on the street wanna know is, do you care? Mhmm. And if people care and then they can meet that need. But just to be genuine, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1:Be genuine, meet that physical need, but then have resource options.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I love what you said to share your story.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You know, in Acts 1 8, couple of the disciples are standing around Jesus saying, hey. Is this the time you're gonna restore the kingdom? And he says, no. No. No.
Speaker 1:First of all, it's not for you to know. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you to be my witness.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know, later we read that, it's the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. Right? To be a witness, to share your testimony, to to walk through that recovery process and say, look. Let me tell you. I once was lost, but now I'm found.
Speaker 1:Here's how that happened.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I and and another thing, and I I know we probably don't have time for this. Maybe this is another discussion, but I love the fact that you do this and how valuable it is to have an African American man leading a ministry to a group of African American men who need it. So much that I see in a lot of ministries, it's, you know, people showing up to look more like me, serving people that look like you. Mhmm. But what you were saying is recruiting people to share their testimony and maybe even recruiting people that look like them.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Representation matters. Yeah. You know, I've been black, and I'm I'm black. I've been in black all my life.
Speaker 2:I don't know how that fits into other communities, but not sure how much that matters in other cultures, but I know that African Americans have been marginalized. So I understand how important that is to see an African American elevated to a position so that when when the person is struggling and saying that, oh, I can be there too. You see what I'm saying? It it matters. So and it probably matters to every culture.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I can only speak for mine. And so it's vitally important that when because a lot of times, the majority of the population that we serve when we're serving the underserved and hurting and broken, the majority of that population is African American. Now Hispanics is coming up, but the majority is African American. And if you have no African American representation, that's shortsighted.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. That's very shortsighted. It's so funny because many organizations will make sure they have the blankets. Mhmm. They'll make sure they have the sandwiches.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But they won't make sure they have the message and the capacity to deliver it well. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And sometimes that the organization because the population of African Americans, they may have a heart, but you will invest in them. And I thank God that Arm and Golden Gate invested in me. Mhmm. Sent me to school, sent me to get certifications, helped me to get training. They walked with me every step of the way.
Speaker 2:They seen that I had this heart and this passion, but, hey, man. You need some skills. We need to we need to help you to get trained to do this. And so sometimes, them well meaning organizations may not be able to find that person already trained and equipped, but if they would invest in that person, they can help that person to get to where they they need that person to be.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you do it, and I'm glad you're doing that now. Yes. You're continuing to invest in others. Yeah. So thanks for doing
Speaker 2:that. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Wayne.