Daily(ish)

I’m joined by Mat Marquis, a Boston-based front-end web consultant focused on accessibility, performance, and a strong belief in the web. We discuss JavaScript as messy but foundational, how kids often experience technology through apps and endless consumption rather than creative web building, and how constant entertainment reduces boredom that once pushed people to learn and tinker.

Links Mentioned in This Episode:
Topics:
0:00 Dailyish Intro
00:39 What Mat Does for Work
01:53 JavaScript for Everyone
03:30 Kids, Apps, and the Web
06:22 Boredom and Old Tech
09:09 Mat’s Zine
13:48 Modern Web Stacks and Accessibility
15:33 AI Answers and Dopamine Buttons
20:46 CSS Tricks Manifesto
22:08 Mourning the Web
29:13 Why The Web Survives
35:33 Fan Fiction Saves HTML
36:57 JavaScript For Everyone Update
38:55 Signing Off

Did You Know?
Support the Show
There are three ways you can support what I do online:
Thanks to our monthly supporters
  • Lynn
  • Jon & Justin
  • Abbey Fisher
  • eileen smee
★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Creators and Guests

Host
Chris
I edit podcasts so you don't have to. I live in Saskatchewan so you don't have to?
Guest
Mat “Wilto” Marquis
Independent web designer and developer that specializes in helping teams build fast, accessible websites. Author of the course JavaScript for Everyone from Piccalilli.

What is Daily(ish)?

Challenging myself to record a podcast episode a day for my 50th year on this planet.

Chris: Hello, and welcome to Dailyish
for Thursday, November 5th, 2026.

I'm recording an episode every day
for this, my 50th year on the planet.

I'm Chris, and today for this
conversation, I'm joined by

Matt all the way from Boston.

Mat: Such a fun age, 50,

Chris: Yeah?

Are you

Mat: solid foods now.

No, I'm 43.

Chris: Okay.

Mat: I just like to say such a
fun age for any given age and add

that they are eating solid foods
now, which is true up to a point

Chris: yeah.

That's the line.

Yeah, okay.

So I don't feel special 'cause I'm 50.

It's just that's your, your

Mat: It's just a fun age, you know?

Fun's what you make of it

Chris: So, uh, what, what do you tell…

What would I tell my mom that I
interviewed a guy from Boston and he does

Mat: Oh, I put borders
on things for a living.

Uh, Woof.

Chris: she'll take Trump.

Mat: Start with, you know
how all borders are made up?

Well, someone's gonna make 'em up.

Oh, no, never mind.

Never mind.

Uh, it's the same guy.

Chris: yeah.

Mat: yeah, I draw squares on the internet,
uh, and make them pretty colors and

sometimes round the corners post Web 2.0.

I am an independent consultant.

I do a lot of access- I'm concerned
strictly with front of house.

It's anything user-facing on the web.

It is … If it's in the
browser, it's my purview.

If it's somewhere on a server
somewhere, I'm terrified and should

not be legally allowed to touch it.

so accessibility, performance,
deep, deep, deep, deep dives into

JavaScript lately, he said haunted,
um, for very long values of lately.

yeah, that's, that's I make websites.

That, that was my old tagline, was
I make websites, which, uh, as it

turns out, not a huge differentiator
between people who make websites.

So

Chris: Didn't, you didn't niche
down in the late '90s, early

2000s.

Yeah.

Mat: not quite

Chris: And, uh, yeah, you have a
JavaScript for Everyone course.

Was it literally everyone, do

Mat: Sure is.

You better believe it is.

JavaScript was invented by Hatsune Miku
in 1996, and it was for everyone, and

that's the only person who invented it.

No one else did, and
gifted it unto the world.

Speaking of people who draw
borders, there's-- it's complicated.

Chris: there's three references
there I didn't catch, but I'll

just, I'll continue on as if I did.

So like my,

Mat: Story of my life.

Just keep…

He's doing a whole thing.

Just keep going

Chris: my 19-year-old son
who's, uh, debating getting into

programming, is JavaScript for him?

Mat: Sure is.

I mean, it is at least at one time
on some, by some measures, the number

one programming language in the world.

it sucks.

It's a goddamned mess, and has
been since, since the 1900s.

and it's, it's great.

It's so janky and it's got so many…

And I've done this routine a bunch
of times, but I do stand by it.

It's got so many fingerprints on it
from so many people who, like, had this

grand vision of what the future would
look like now back in the mid-'90s.

and it doesn't, didn't necessarily
work out good for a lot of it.

There is a lot of rules of
JavaScript that are variable

depending on what you're doing.

Uh, but it's great.

It's so janky.

It, it's such a boom mic
in the shot, you know?

Chris: That's a

Mat: And it works, and
yet it moves, you know?

Like, it powers the whole thing.

It's still the whole interactive layer.

Pretty good

Chris: And that's what, like, so your
tagline I noticed on your website is, "My

name is Matt and I believe in the web."

And so I f- I find in conversations,
just picking on my kids for a second,

Mat: Good.

It's time.

Chris: Yeah, it's

Mat: had it too-- Teenagers have
had it too easy for too long.

Let's get 'em

Chris: They don't know
what the web is, right?

They just know the apps.

They know the Instagrams
and the whatevers.

And so

Mat: I, I feel it's due to six-seven

Chris: Yes.

Mat: This is as a result of 6/7,
they've lost sight of the web's ethos.

I, I can't speak to this.

I have had dogs and they don't use
iPads, but like there's certainly

a lot of chatter around kids can't
use computers anymore, which is

Chris: Yeah, and I'm not expecting you
to have the answers for my parenting

woes, uh, especially, yeah, all,

Mat: Oh, I think you'll find a 43-year-old
childfree by choice person is the leading

expert on how someone should raise kids

Chris: Definitely when you're sitting in
the coffee shop or on the airplane and

there's someone with kids next to you.

Mat: The, the key is to cast a
judgmental look so the parent

knows they're doing something wrong

Chris: Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I got that part down.

But the, the idea of like still
investing in how-- learning how to

build for the web, build on the web,
I remember when my kids were growing

up and the iPhone came out, and it
was like this great creative device.

You could do stuff finally.

It would be super easy to
make a video, to whatever.

And the creativity, the potential is
what I feel like our, our generation

collectively saw in these devices.

And then along, you know, came the
Instagrams and the whatevers, and

it just became this consumption
device, which has been…

It's well-trod.

It's not like new thoughts there.

But I think seeing it up close the
way I get to is still disheartening.

And so I, I love-- That's why I think
I love the, our mutual connection

through Shop Talk Show, uh, the Discord
there, and seeing people who actually

strive to try to build for the web in
various ways, still pulling the tools

out metaphorically, gives me hope.

But yeah, I also then walk out to the
couch and see the scrolling zombies

Mat: It's, yeah,

Chris: to Zuckerberg

Mat: it's weird because I only
ever, I hear about it, right?

Like, I have no exposure
to that way of life.

So I'll read something that's
like, you know, no one knows how

to use a DOS prompt or what a
VHS is or whatever, and it's like

Okay.

then it's always framed as like
a horror story, and I'm like, It

sounds real scary to me, but I
don't know what the exact like…

In my head, because I'm, uh, extremely,
terminally a millennial, I'm like, well,

if you sit a kid down in front of a 386
with a DOS prompt blinking at him, they're

gonna try mashing stuff into it, right?

And it seems like the prevailing
opinion right now is no.

They would just look at it for a while
and be like, "I don't know, it's broken."

Chris: Yeah, it's such an interesting
idea is like throwing old tech in

front of older tech in front of them.

'Cause I've tried doing the like
walking s- my kids through like,

"Hey, Astro has this tutorial
for like how to set up a blog.

Let's try it out and see if we
could figure it out or whatever."

And it feels like it, it becomes
equivalent to like, "I'm gonna

teach you how to shovel a driveway
or mow the lawn" task instead

Mat: a can of beans,

Chris: yeah, instead of a fun
like this is a creative, I'm

gonna teach you how to paint or
whatever, you know, kind of thing.

And so

Mat: best I can get a read on it,
and I certainly can't being, being

who and what I am, it's that you
don't get to be bored anymore.

Chris: Hmm.

Mat: want to try and make…

I didn't wake up one day as a kid and
think, "I wanna make a point-and-click

adventure game using HyperCard on a Mac
Classic," but I had nothing else to do.

So it's like, "I guess I could do that.

Yeah, let's give it a shot.

Let's make our own fun."

And it seems like there's no opportunity
to, like, I have been sitting

here doing nothing for two hours.

If I don't do-- figure out something to
do, I'm gonna lose it because you can

co- I mean, as an adult, the same thing.

I could haul off and do some
project, or I could just kinda

see what the current nightmare is.

And, like, I can't imagine just being born
into it, like not having, not having the

sense memory to be like, "Put it down.

Be bored on purpose."

Chris: Yeah.

Yeah, that, that is the--
like we straddle the world of

before and during or whatever.

I don't know.

We're not to the after part
yet, whatever that means.

But

yeah, and so I

Mat: be at the after part.

It depends on the day.

Chris: the after party for the after.

Mat: Is that what it is?

Chris: But it is like that, you can
remember that feeling of like there's

literally nothing to do and noth-
whatever, and we can debate about

the old days all, all day long or

Mat: Oh yeah, it wasn't good.

Yeah, it's like describing a, a
color that only you have ever seen.

It's like, "Well, just be bored."

And it's like, "What are
you talking about, old man?

Chris: Yeah.

Mat: What do you mean do nothing?

Why?"

And it's like, there is no why.

You just do nothing.

it's like we stumbled backwards
into Zen by dint of not knowing how

to work the VCR as kids, you know?

I don't know how to hook up my
Nintendo to this TV, so I guess

I'll embrace the void for a while

And, uh, yeah, I mean, to be clear,
I know almost nothing about anything

that's ever happening in the world,
but I know what a floppy disk is.

So like, in this one very specific
instance, sure, uh, I wouldn't say

we millennials are the enlightened
in many ways, uh, but who is,

We can fix a printer,
that counts for something

Chris: Yeah.

I avoid-- I, we, we've needed to get
a new printer for like six months

now, and I keep putting it off 'cause
I just don't wanna have to fix a

printer,

Mat: I got a little label printer joint
hooked up for, for shipping the zines.

Chris: Yeah, tell me about the zine.

That's a, a fun little creative venture.

Mat: think I

Chris: Speaking of being bored
and doing something about

Mat: yeah, I just…

I get so mad.

I get so mad that everything's so
glossy and corporate and nice about…

It-- That's, that's my I believe in the
web thing, is that, like, there are still

pockets of it that are just weirdos.

It's just janky old websites and
weirdos sharing information with

each other, and it's not necessarily
always the best thing that they're

sharing information with each other.

But, like, the spirit of the
web is that anyone can tap into

anything and learn anything, for
better or almost certainly worse.

I mean, what ails the web is what
ails the world, and it's capitalism.

It's everything's so buffed down
and polished and, like, refined

and workshopped and analytic-ed.

that's just like, I need to…

I wanted to do something with grit on it.

I wanted to do something, like, janky
and paper and not really proofread all

that well, and just like, what if we
just talk about one thing from the web?

Like, I like HTML.

HTML is good.

each issue of the zine is dedicated
to not an HTML element, but like,

a group of HTML elements, I guess.

Like, the issue one was headings,
just headings in the document outline.

It was 20-odd pages.

We're just talking about headings.

Uh, issue two was just images.

It's all that's in there, and it's a
bunch of art and it's a bunch of writing

and it's, you know, a lot of it's
only tangentially related to an image.

Some of it is…

I found my old GeoCities page that I
built when I was 16, and some of it is…

Like, I had puzzles in the most recent
issue, and I made a tabletop role-playing

game, uh, a little one-shot, one-pager,
um, called The People Destroying the Web

Have Names and Addresses, where you roll
up one of various classes of hacker or a

barbarian armed with only a crowbar and
a computer, you seek to save the web.

Uh,

is it about images?

Kinda.

It is made out of images, but
like, it's just a, it's just a…

Here, we're doing the web.

We're doing GeoCities
in print a little bit.

Uh, and it's good.

I like it a lot.

A lot of much, much more talented
people than me contribute to it,

and I also am there, as is so
frequently the way with my career.

Chris: Oh, that's good.

I was, I was worried it was just you that

Mat: No.

God, no.

No, no, no.

No, I do the letter from the editor
at the beginning and a couple of

things to fill pages, like the RPG,
but it's, it's all user submitted.

All of the profits from it,
once I pay back the printing

costs, go to Trans Lifeline.

It's good.

It's good to do it.

Chris: What do you…

No, uh, like not financially,
but like what do you get out

of doing that personally?

Mat: it's cool to make it.

I am a craft person.

I need a thing to be tinkering with.

I need, like, a project, and
it's very infrequently on

computer, though this one is.

But, like, I need a side thing
or I start getting weird and,

like, taking apart the fridge.

But this was just like…

Uh, this, this came out of frustration.

This was like everything, if everything
on the web feels like an Apple store

with the lights off now, you know?

It's just dark, and it's
glossy, and it's sign up here.

Here's a paywall.

Here's an interstitial.

Pay us $8.

And it's like the, the web I
believe in is the janky part.

It's the part where it's just a
bunch of dorks who also believe

in the web as a platform.

So why not make a zine about it, why
not do it in print, uh, just for fun?

Of course, I wanna make a zine.

If anything, I just wanted to print
stickers so I could slap them on

the back of street signs, a thing
that I would certainly never cop

to on a podcast at the age of 43.

Chris: Nothing you say here is
legally, uh, yeah, binding or

Mat: It's a good thing

Chris: If you put it on the
internet, it's not real.

Uh,

Mat: never know

Chris: I remember my first GeoCities
page, and I tried making some

sort of, like, regular web…

W- it would be a, a blog or something
now, but whatever we called it back then,

like, with friends and, like, I was the
only nerd who was fascin- Like, just the

idea that, I think, I for- I think it's
Chris Coyier who often says, like, putting

something text with a URL and sending
that out and that being a thing you

can do is, should be fascinating to us.

And I feel like, you know, you lose
that obviously 'cause, like, the kids

these days or whatever don't even know
how to share their Instagram post URL.

They just screenshot it and
send it to a friend or whatever.

And so, yeah, I love that idea of,
uh, just messy, weird of the web.

And, but then combining that with, I
know something that you're passionate

about and many others obviously
are, but, like, about usability.

Like, it's not…

Back then, we didn't know what it meant
to have alt tags and to have things

be accessible to someone without w-
you know, vision issues or whatever.

Whereas now, I feel like with
modern sensibilities, you have

both, the best of both worlds.

So it's not

just, like, weird floating
images all over the place and

Mat: It was

Chris: can actually understand it.

Mat: when we first figured out we
could slap some tables together

to make a webpage, um, we could
do that because it was, it was

easier to do technology stack-wise.

Go to GeoCities, figure out how
to code it is the hard part.

Slap it up there.

there was no technology stack.

There was no…

You know, it's just like mark it up, and
once you figured that out, you're done.

It's prohibitive now, where it's
like, so you wanna build a website?

Go sign up for S- Squarespace.

A thing I probably
shouldn't say on a podcast.

Uh, Bleep, bleep that out.

Uh, yeah.

But also, like, we were worse.

we didn't pay attention to that stuff
that we should have 'cause we didn't

know any better, and it's like,
it was very the web's childhood.

It was very falling out
of a tree, you know?

You get to do that.

You get to climb the tree
because you're making mistakes.

I don't know.

I mean, there is no recapturing
that, I don't think.

It's all too big and too sprawling,
and we know too much now.

And like, if I were teaching a kid how
to make a website, I don't think I'd be

able to be like, "Yeah, I don't know.

Just go figure it out."

There's some part of me that
would be like, "At least an empty

alt attribute though," right?

No, like there would be some like…

What?

Why don't I do it?

Why don't you let…

You know what I mean?

Like

There was a lot of stumbling
through it back then that one

does not get to do anymore

Chris: Yeah, that's-- I mean, that brings
up the, even the, the AI discussion,

which is obviously everywhere and like
the temptation for the, the temptation

even if my kids are doing that, like if
they're opening up some, some tutorial,

if I could get them to do that with HTML
and CSS, whatever, then the box is gonna

be, or the prompt or whatever, the, the
little bubble is gonna be there like,

"Hey, do you want me to do this for you?"

And that, just that one click away
is, too easy to, to fall into.

And, and again, knowing, knowing what was
before, I feel like I can cut a lot of

people slack, myself probably included,
like what was before I know what's

involved in making HTML, CSS, and how to
make that for the web in a crappy version.

And so then reaching for a tool feels
like, okay, well, at least I can sort

of have a, like I, I put in some of the
time, but I like, yeah, to just start

with that as the, the starting point now,

Mat: Yeah, and not, I mean, not,
not their fault by any stretch.

I mean, this is an entire generation
of, of training around, like, not

developing the willpower to say,
"No, I don't want the answer.

I'll do it myself."

Like, there is…

It's constant, and it's-- I mean,
you and I, just as much as any

kid, constantly bombarded by, like,
"Did you just want the answer?

Did you just wanna press the button?

Do you wanna see a like show up?

Did you want a little dopamine?

Little bit?

Little bit?

You had a tough day.

You want a little?"

And it's like, I decide no.

and to

have never developed that, yeah, to have
never developed that kind of willpower,

it's like, yeah, of course kids are
gonna hit the give me the answer button.

It's, it has a air of authority
to it, the same as we've been

inadvertently training them that the
authorities always have, you know?

The website tells you how to do the thing,
so why wouldn't you press the button

for website tell me how to do the thing?

Buy one of these.

This'll fix it.

You know what I mean?

Chris: I grew up with, uh, parents saying,
"You can't play video games for a living.

You can't do stuff on the web.

You can't…

Like, that's not a valid career.

That's not whatever."

And

Mat: your brain.

Chris: yeah.

And now we can see, our kids can see,
like, you can actually make a really

good living if you're pl- really
good at, you know, video game and

shouting at the screen or whatever.

And like, if that's your skill
set, you, you get rich, uh, by

their impression or whatever, you

Mat: Well, sure.

Like I'm gonna be in the NBA
through, through grit and

determination at five foot four.

Yeah

Chris: Well, you're-- really?

You present much taller than, than 5'4".

Mat: No, I'm, I'm wicked short.

Me, Prince, uh, Vegeta, Wolverine, five
foot four That's right, short kings

Chris: Yeah.

that's derailed

Mat: keep the list on hand.

You can tell it was

very top of

Chris: locked and loaded.

Yeah.

Mat: That's right.

Chris: I forget where I was going now.

Mat: Yeah, I also forget.

Chris: I think getting rich
on Twitch, that's the idea,

right?

That's, uh,

Mat: oh,

Chris: the goal?

You, you

Mat: it's funny.

I had a…

Uh, well, yeah, that, that…

Sure.

I had a neurology appointment.

Everything's fine.

but the guy I went to see was,
I wanna say 600, 700 years old.

so I go into his, his office
with, like, the leather on

the desk, like one of those,

Chris: Oh

Mat: and he's like, "Have
you had any stress?"

And I was like So I gave him an itemized
list of a couple of things real quick,

uh, in a half, half joking Hawkeye Pierce
from MASH kind of way that included, "And

my career's dissolving out from under me."

It's not, but you know, when you get
on a run, uh, you get a little maudlin.

And, uh, then he was like,
"And what do you do?"

And I was like, "Oh, I, I make websites."

He was like, "And your
website isn't doing good?"

And I was like, " I, I mean,
I'm a, I'm a consultant.

I help people with websites."

And he was like, "And their
websites aren't doing good?"

And I was like, " No, the job
is … That's the whole job

is that I help, I help them."

And I didn't get bent out of shape,
but I tried to be like, "No, it's

that they have businesses that use
the websites, and I help them do it."

And he … There was a
long pause, and he says,

"A backup plan might be a good idea."

And it, it was, it was that.

It was that like, that's not
a career a person can have.

You can't just do website for a living.

You need to learn a trade, kiddo.

Go to, go to medical school,
become a neurologist.

Live to the ripe old age of 605.

hope he's doing good.

He was very good at neurology, but, uh,

Chris: So much with the websites, you

Mat: he'll never make it as a web
developer, so in your face, old man.

Uh, yeah, but it's, it's the same thing.

It's like that's not a job a person gets.

That's, that's a made-up nonsense thing,
and the same as me playing Mega Man 2

would've been a made-up nonsense job.

Woof, that would've ruined my life if you
sent that message back in time and said,

"There's a future where you could play
Mega Man so good you get paid to do it."

I never would've gone outside again.

Chris: Exactly.

You know, just figure out
OBS and then you can-- you

two can make…

Mat: that…

Even then I would've been
like, "That sounds hard.

No way."

And I was right.

OBS sucks.

maybe that's just the Linux
experience of OBS, I don't know.

But

Chris: There has to be some, some
barrier to entry to, to that career, I

Mat: That's true.

That's, that's the modern day blinking
DOS prompt that keeps you from just

hauling off and I gotta get real bored
before I try to make sense of OBS

Chris: Yeah.

I don't know if this is a
good jumping or the transition

is the word I'm looking for.

I don't know if this is a good
transition, but, um, on your post

about taking back CSS tricks, there's
this paragraph you had or a c- a

couple paragraphs you wrote here.

Uh, I'm gonna read it.

I don't know if I'll include the
whole thing in, in the episode, but,

like, I can just reference it too.

Mat: can you put dramatic music
behind it and maybe scroll the text up

Chris: Oh, I can do that.

Don't, this is…

Anything's better than looking
at Freshbooks, that's for sure.

Mat: Yeah, like a sailory kind of
t- I'm not picky, but just like a

seafaring and imagine you have a pipe.

Chris: pipe, yeah.

For some, settling into a role
as a proxy for programmatically

generated mediocrity might be
plenty, but I'm not talking to them.

For many, many more of you,
I know that isn't enough.

I'm talking to you.

I know because you're like me.

You're tired, you're
angry, you're mourning.

Your mind keeps drifting to
thoughts of emergency exits and

life rafts, and it gives you the
same dull ache in your chest.

You've always been as frustrated by
the day-to-day work as anyone, but

somewhere deep down, you believe in it.

You find a clever solution, you fix
a thorny issue, you suddenly have

a new concept or syntax click into
place for you, and you feel something.

You believe in this, all of this,
despite the industry deep down.

You can still see the web's potential
as a democratizing force designed

for and built by everyone, vast
and messy and chaotic as it is.

You value your role in it,
moving the needle toward that

ideal, even if ever so slightly.

You should value it.

You're needed.

for anybody not in build website
land, I feel like you're like,

they're like, "What's going on?

I still see websites.

I, I have to interact with the
stupid, you know, my counselor's

booking site and my hotel booking
app or whatever website is terrible."

You're still needed.

But I, I am adjacent to the, the mourning.

I, I really like that you'd included
that 'cause it is this like the feeling

that this thing that we thought we
could all be a part of, not just

for profit and career, but also like
for collective community, a bunch of

holes poked in the raft or whatever

Mat: That's a good way to put it.

Yeah

Chris: sunk yet.

We're not like drowning yet, but,
you know, we can see that Kate

Winslet is kicking us off the
door as it we all start to freeze.

Mat: We can, we can s- we can see
the cracks forming a little in that

like '90s ideal of the web is…

That Tim Berners-Lee, the
web is for everyone, and it's

like, ah, this might be…

I mean, it's always gradually over
time, you know, the purpose of a

system is its output, and the purpose
of the web gradually over time

became go to Temu and buy something.

But, like, there's been a big shift,
and that's not, you know, that's not a

revolutionary thing to say on a podcast.

But, like, there is a sudden…

There is a big downturn.

There is a strip mining of the web in
recent years that we have not seen prior.

and it hurts.

It does

Chris: I, I live in, again, like
straddling two worlds almost.

That's maybe the metaphor or the,
the theme of the, uh, conversation.

But like I s- sort of straddle this world
where some of my clients are in the,

like, AI is the thing and we're gonna
do this all the way and why the hell

would you ever work with anybody again?

P- like period, like first of all,
humans, but then also why aren't you

just building stuff every day constantly?

'Cause look at this tool.

they see the tool as this great
enabler in the way that I would've

seen whatever the c- uh, the car or I
don't know, some tool that I came along

that why would you not drive a car?

Why would you not And then the rest,
there's this other half of the web and

clients that I work with, they're like,
"Holy crap, this is destroying the world."

And setting aside the environmental
stuff, which is not just

to, to Yeah,

it's not just, but like for the sake
of the conversation, like how do you

process that beyond just like, is it…

'Cause it feels like to me to,
not to blame America, but like

Mat: Oh, please.

Chris: two,

Mat: Oh yeah.

No, no, no.

Chris: the like two party system and
we're just like this, I'm on team

this and I'm on team this, and not
that we need to just get everyone in

another room and then we'll have a
conversation and it'll all fix itself,

like it's, we're too far gone for that.

But like how do you walk in the
world where there are those people

who are like so far gone on it?

'Cause it, it just makes me angry, but I
know there's no like rational conversation

we're gonna have and I feel like there's
this, the side that you and I are…

I'm not even in that side necessarily, but
like this conversation over here of like,

can we do this rationally and with care
and with empathy for, and yeah, and craft.

And I feel like that feels more human

Mat: Here's the…

I get, I get mad.

I get apoplectic about, about AI stuff,
as a concept and as a tool foisted on

us by specific people with names and
addresses and billions of dollars.

but it is, it is a, it is a trap.

It is the, natural endpoint of Instagram.

It is the, the apex of how we are
wanted to interact with the web.

It appeals to our, like, basest instincts,
the same as it does for a kid who hasn't

ever built up, like, an immunity to it.

Press the button, get the answer.

Hey, do you have a big, cool
idea that you want credit for?

And it's not-- I don't fault
any of the people using it

because this is made as a trick.

It is the illusion of competency.

There's a reason that everybody who
uses these says they're great for

everything except the one thing they
specialize in, it can't do very well.

And it's not because no one is
wringing their hands and thinking,

"Ha-ha, this will get me credit
and accolades for my cool idea."

They're sincere.

They have a cool idea, and they want
to see it made real, and we've given

them a button that makes it real.

Of course, they're gonna use it.

Of course, they're gonna put it
out there with genuine pride.

And there is, of course,
that dopamine hit.

Like that's, that's your likes,
that's your, your reposts because

they made their cool thing It just
feels like this is what every Facebook

algorithm was building toward a little.

Anybody who has a thought can press
a button and get kudos for it.

It is doing that by destroying
the web and the world.

That alone, that alone is plenty
But it is, it's the endpoint of

that blinking DOS prompt too.

You can just press a button
and your idea is done.

You never have to learn anything.

You don't have to learn how to do
it, you don't have to learn why

it does it, and over the course of
years, decades, a generation, no

one has to know how to do any of it.

Press the button, pay the guy.

Pay the guy for the, for the button.

You pay for the button, you can press the
button, and you can have the thing done.

Don't worry about it.

You don't have to get bored.

You don't have to read something boring.

You don't have to learn anything boring.

You can just do it.

that is the dull ache.

That is what breaks my heart, is that
there is a genuine and long-term and

not dopamine hit value to learning.

To do something and say,
"I know how to do this now.

It's great that I fixed this one thing,
but I can fix that thing forever.

I know how to do it.

You give me a screwdriver
and I can fix that."

And as time goes on, the same way
kids don't have an immunity to press

the button, fix the thing, they
won't have that same impulse, that

same, "But I wanna understand it."

'Cause you don't have to.

Why would you do something you don't
have to do if you've never had to?

Same as I don't know how
to churn butter, you know?

Except it's for everything on computer.

It's you're paying someone for the
privilege to figure it out for you.

You never have to figure it out.

You Not even in terms of a specific
skill, you just don't have the faculties

to get aimed at something, handed a
hammer and say, "Try to fix that."

I mean, that's, that's
what you were describing.

There's some like, "I don't
know how to do it, so the end."

There's no, "I bet I could."

There's no, "I bet I could figure it
out," and that just breaks my heart.

It is there because it is It is a gland
in some people, and I know it so, so

well, that you have to understand.

Even if you never built up the muscle
memory, even if no one ever sat you

down and said, "Why don't you figure out
how to build, build this or fix this?"

There is a part of you
that's like, " Yeah, but why?

Why does it work that way?"

And that is what the web was built on.

Those are the people who built the
early web, was like the curious, the

we're-gonna-figure-this-out people.

And it is there, and it
will always be there.

So that's the, that's the
I still believe in the web.

It's like they're always
gonna make people like that.

I've met them.

You know?

I've met people decades and decades
younger than me who have no business

digging into the code the way
they do, If I ask them why, they

wouldn't understand the question.

What do you mean why?

I, I, I'm using it.

I wanna know how it works.

And it's like, you're still here.

Chris: Yeah

Mat: You're still here.

It's not just me, you know?

And it's just…

So that's the…

I get, God, I get so down about the
web, and I get so down about, I mean,

education on the web in particular.

Not, not just in a buying groceries
way, but in a, like, envisioning a

lost generation of developers where,
like, this proves unsustainable in

five years and no one knows how to
do anything without that button.

Or no one ever learns how anything
works because they've always had

the button and they always will.

It just, that breaks my heart, that idea.

That's the dull ache.

That's the do I wanna
be part of that anymore?

Do I wanna just pack up and leave?

But the I believe in the web part
is that I have met those people,

and they are still there, and
they are still going to learn.

And not a lot of people are
gonna buy a giant course on

JavaScript, but one of them is.

And like, "Here's everything I know."

You

Chris: Yeah.

There, that's the part we need the
theme music for, the, the big speech.

Which i- it echoes the, the hope, uh,
even Dan Ryan's episode when I talked

with him a couple of episodes back.

Like, almost like you can't look for it
on the we- I mean, you, you could find

some people on the web, but like almost
in the, the local meetups, almost like

a return to that idea of like locally
where's the, the nerd who's getting

together with other nerds to just figure
out how to view source on a website and

Mat: it's still feeding some
people out there somewhere,

so it's like, you know what?

Go ahead.

Feed it into your machine, and
I'll just keep, I'll keep making

it until the machine breaks

Chris: Yeah.

Well, in light of the, uh, y-
speaking of American stuff, like the

Mat: Oh, no.

Speaking of

broken, yeah

Chris: I did see the, the stocks all
tumbling because of, uh, everyone

selling their Investors selling off
chip stocks as if they'll never be

Mat: can we get a, can we
get a pause for a long sip

You don't say.

Is that right?

Did all the big stocks tumble?

Uh-oh.

Oh, no.

Despite all of our advances
in super intelligence, which

everyone should have to call it.

Chris: Yeah.

Mat: Go ahead, own

it.

Chris: intelligence, yeah

Mat: Own your super intelligence you love
so mu- See, I st- I do still get mad.

It's just not at the,
it's not at the people.

It's never at the people.

We're all doing our best,

Chris: Yeah, I think that's, uh, going
back to my question of like how do you

engage with the people, I feel like that's
a good reminder even for myself as I

sit and listen and get angry sometimes.

It's like they're only doing the
thing that they've been either trained

to and sometimes they're genuinely
being lazy and selfish and whatever.

But like they-- It's the tool that's
thrown in front of them and it's

the, like how are you gonna resist?

You're hungry to do stuff and create.

I think that's like ultimately at
the bottom of it, the, the sort

of core need is like the creating.

I wanna create something.

I wanna do something and this is
just a shortcut to, like you said, to

get that dopamine or that like and,

Mat: and I mean, don't get
me wrong, I'm a dumbass.

Like, learning stuff sucks.

It's hard, and I don't wanna do
it, and it's boring, and like, it's

frustrating, and you're trying to
learn something, and you just break it

outright, and it's like, "This sucks.

Now I gotta go to a guy
who knows how to fix it."

And like, I mean, it's work.

It's, it's definition,
dictionary definition work,

and that is how one learns.

And like, of course you
don't wanna do that.

It sucks.

But then you don't get any of the
benefits of having done it, you know?

I wanna have done it.

I don't wanna do it necessarily,
but I wanna have done it.

you watch the progression where
it's like, "I'll never use this.

Okay, I use it a little to augment
some things I do very carefully."

I experimented with using it to
do something I don't know how to

do, and it came out pretty good."

And it's, "I use it, period, full stop.

I use it for everything.

It's really, it's integral."

And they might even maintain
that same like, "I don't like

it, and I don't believe in it."

But over time it's become, "Oh, yeah,"
they, but they do use it for everything

because it's built to trick you into that.

It is an addictive button.

It is a button that gives
you the thing you want.

Of course, we're rats in a cage, you know?

Hit the gimme, gimme some food button.

I don't mean that as like
a dunk on those people.

Like, "You're a rat in a cage,
and I'm an enlightened…"

No, I'm dumb as hell.

Like, I'm yeah, I'd press the
gimme stuff I like button, but

like that's, that's what it's for.

That's why they put it in front of you.

And like, they're gonna keep shoving it
in front of me, and if I weren't very

the way I am, very from the Greater
Boston area, like I-- there's a world

where I press that button, you know?

And it's like, "Oh, this was so easy."

it's just, I can't.

I have to know.

I have to know how it works.

I don't wanna do it if
I can't understand it.

Other than plumbing.

If there was a button I could
use for plumbing, that's the one.

And I'm sure it does a great job at that.

Surely there's nothing that could go wrong

Chris: Yeah.

Mat: building codes and plumbing.

Chris: Yes.

Yeah, I, I That's, that is the career at
path now of choice or of like plumbing,

electrical, whatever, anything that's like
with your hands, 'cause at least the hope

is that we're a few years away from that
being, uh, uh, allegedly taken away as a

valid career

Mat: There's always gonna be something.

You know, there's always-- Look,
it's still, everything's still

made out of computers, whether
or not people know how they work.

So if nothing else, maybe knowing what
a directory is becomes a critical and

highly paid skill set, you know, someday.

The whole world's made out of COBOL now,
and we're all that one neckbeard COBOL

programmer that every bank hires, uh, just
distributed across everything forever.

there's always gonna be value in it.

I mean, I know I can build a website,
and the web's gonna change, but I'm

always gonna be able to build a website
somehow or have some frame of reference

for how websites are built now.

and I think, I think there's
always gonna be a value in that

Chris: I, yeah, I believe that too.

And, um, yeah, still

Mat: Fingers crossed too,
'cause I got a bad back.

I can't do carpentry any- anymore.

That's

Chris: never could.

So yeah,

Mat: type for a living.

Can you imagine going up on a 40-foot
roof now, me with my busted typing hands?

"Oh, I know where semicolons
go in JavaScript."

Get off the job site.

Go sit down

It's still out there.

It'll…

If it moves to some mesh
network, if it becomes something

different, that's still gonna…

There's still gonna be people
bootlegging copies of RoboCop somewhere.

Somewhere someone's gonna find a WYSIWYG
and be like, "I have feelings," and

they're gonna type it, and they wanna
know what happens if Kirk and Spock

did kiss, and they are gonna write a
story about it, and that's the web, baby

Chris: If nothing else, the fan
fiction on the web will support HTML

for as

Mat: that's a s- it's a sensitive topic.

AO3 is down

Chris: Oh, what, what is that?

Age of Em- No.

I don't even know what that is.

Sorry.

Mat: Yes.

Chris: Okay.

We'll

Mat: Age of Empires.

Chris: That's where my brain went, so…

Mat: that's fair.

It's a, it's a big fan fiction site and
I can't even begin to do it justice.

I don't, I don't go to that school.

I'm not a Tumblr kid.

Um, but I've associated with many.

The relentless march of
technology has done damage to it,

Chris: Eh.

Mat: speaking of previous topics,
and so it is down for maintenance

Chris: after

Mat: I'm not gonna…

Either it comes back or
something rises from the ashes.

It is the nature of humans, you know?

Everyone wants to ultimately…

If you could make this the title of
the episode or something, ultimately

everyone wants to think about what
would happen if Kirk and Spock

kissed, and that's gonna save the web

in

some form or another.

Chris: Uh, so We'll send people to
the multi-page version zine, the, your

website, the JavaScript for everyone
if they wanna learn JavaScript.

Mat: You should learn JavaScript.

Big things are afoot.

I just finished a big expansion for…

Not to plug here,

but, um, we launched it, it
went pretty good, and I decided

I wasn't satisfied with it.

So I wrote JavaScript For Everyone New
Game Plus, which adds way more stuff

to it, and like exercises, and I broke
120,000 words on JavaScript, which is an

amount of writing no one should ever do.

Uh, and I did it to do it.

I did it 'cause I wanted
it to have been done.

I did it to have done it, not because I
like doing work, to refer back to previous

things, and I learned a lot from it.

You know what?

If three copies sell, then I get to know
that there are three dorks out there

who, like, still have that in them, where
it's like, "Yeah, but how does it work?"

And that's…

Man.

So that's, that's coming.

Stay tuned.

I won't say which Friday it may
launch on, but if you can think of

any significant Fridays coming up

Chris: Speaking of thanks America

Mat: Yeah, no.

Oh, gross.

I worked in a mall for, like,
the better part of a decade, and

the idea that any part of my life
involves certain upcoming Fridays

here in the future is just revolting.

I've heard Simply Having a Wonderful
Christmas Time so many times.

So many times

Chris: This is where the choice to
not have children is, is paying off

in m- uh, besides other reasons,
is 'cause my kids decided November

1st we listen to Christmas music.

And as much as I can put
my foot down, I don't…

I, I only have so many feet.

Mat: thank continued goodness for
the steadfast Halloween, the noble

defensive wall that is Halloween
that keeps it from bleeding out

into every other month of the year

Chris: Exactly.

All right.

So thank you, Matt.

We'll-- I know we could riff for a long
time, uh, but thanks for doing this.

Uh, any final parting words from

Mat: Oh, no.

Now the pressure's on.

No.

Um,

Chris: used up all your words

Mat: yeah, I only get
so many a day, you know?

Here, here's what we'll do,
and thanks to the, my new

understanding of podcast technology

this is keeping me away from
reloading inboxes, which, like,

Lord knows I need it right

Chris: That's where the
money is, in the inbox

Mat: Is it?

Chris: I don't know

Mat: Theoretically, that's where it would
show up, but I keep reloading and that…

Chris: You hit me at a vulnerable time
in that, that financial conversation.

So luckily the, uh, tens of views
are amounting to tens of cents on

YouTube, so I think we'll be okay.

Mat: It's like my old book royalties.

Retirement, here I come

Chris: how am I gonna start it?

Mat: Listen up nerds

Chris: Listen up, nerds.

There you

Mat: Yeah, that's my go-to.

That's a-- nerds is a great
gender-neutral plural.

What's up, nerds?

Chris: As always, you can feel
free to reply to the post wherever

you saw it on social media, in the
comments on YouTube, or you can

email me at chris.enns@gmail.com.

If you're not already subscribed,
visit daily.chrisenns.com/subscribe

to see all the ways to subscribe
to this show, scubscribe

even, and look for "Daily-ish"
wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks for listening.

I hope you'll be back tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Bye.