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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:03:04
Stacey
Candy.
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:07:17
Speaker 1
A podcast about cults, crimes and killers.
00:00:07:17 - 00:00:12:07
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:00:12:07 - 00:00:21:12
Stacey
Beneath the surface of smiling families, carefully curated modesty and scripted joy, there can be something much darker.
00:00:22:19 - 00:00:39:06
Stacey
In today's episode, we're unpacking shiny happy People. The docu series that examines the Duggar family and their connection to a controversial and deeply damaging belief system, the Institute in Basic Life Principles, or IBP.
00:00:39:08 - 00:00:55:10
Dori
Founded by Bill Gothard, IB LP preach strict authority, submission and silence, especially for women and children. But behind its moral messaging was a framework of control, fear and in many cases, abuse.
00:00:55:10 - 00:01:06:08
Stacey
We'll explore the roots of the organization, how its teachings infiltrated homes and churches across the country, and the long term impact on those who grew up in its grasp.
00:01:06:08 - 00:01:16:11
Dori
This isn't just a story about one family. It's a story about power, indoctrination, and the voices that are finally breaking through the silence.
00:01:16:17 - 00:01:26:17
Stacey
Please note this episode includes discussion of child abuse, sexual abuse, and other sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.
00:01:27:01 - 00:01:36:21
Speaker 1
Outside my window. It's only raining.
00:01:36:23 - 00:01:44:11
Speaker 1
When the wind blows in. I feel pain.
00:01:44:13 - 00:01:49:14
Unknown
And I don't need no doctors.
00:01:49:16 - 00:02:10:06
Speaker 1
Maybe I'm not sick. My body's been lined up. I've broken up cells in every.
00:02:13:18 - 00:02:17:21
Speaker 1
May.
00:02:17:21 - 00:02:18:20
Dori
Stacy,
00:02:18:20 - 00:02:38:10
Dori
you are. I'm the expert. You're the expert. You've done a lot of research on these people. I am just years. I mean, if Suzy first, as I like to say, like, I like following these, you know, all these documentaries and these people. But,
00:02:38:10 - 00:02:39:09
Dori
Stacy,
00:02:39:09 - 00:02:45:07
Dori
all I got from watching these four episodes was, like, complete anger.
00:02:45:09 - 00:02:56:13
Dori
Like, I'm angry at these people, and I'm angry that people follow this. I'm, like, furious of how they treat
00:02:56:13 - 00:02:57:02
Dori
women
00:02:57:02 - 00:03:06:07
Dori
And kids and that these people are now impacting our political landscape. So give me your expertise on this.
00:03:06:09 - 00:03:30:09
Stacey
Okay, so I have I developed an interest in cults in general. When I started listening to Digging Up the Duggars, which is a podcast on Apple Podcasts with these two fantastic people, and I was listening to I, you know, I didn't know watch I watched 19 kids and counting, 18 kids and counting, 17 kids and counting, 14 whatever it was.
00:03:30:09 - 00:03:47:07
Stacey
I watched all of them. And I was kind of obsessed, you know, sort of voyeuristic, obsessed with watching how this family works. And there's a part of you that, like, looks at it and goes, gosh, they're so organized. Their kids are so good. Blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, and they're doing all these fun things. I mean, yes, they believe in creationism.
00:03:47:07 - 00:04:09:13
Stacey
Yes. They don't have, you know, they're not secular at all. Yes. They're a little strange. But I watched it. And then I started listening to this, podcast, digging up, digging up the Duggars, and started doing deep dives into idol, which is the, Bill Gothard Institute and Basic Life Principles, which is something he created and made up out of his head.
00:04:09:15 - 00:04:35:15
Stacey
He claims to use the Bible that nothing, nothing in it, it feels biblical or Jesus like, everything is about control, manipulation, isolation and just like we were talking about with the Orthodox Judaism. This is very similar, where hypocrisy is at the top of it. They don't even see they use, they're doing this for the Lord.
00:04:35:18 - 00:04:42:08
Stacey
They don't watch TV, but they will do their TV show because it's for the greater good of the Lord.
00:04:44:02 - 00:04:47:14
Speaker 2
The Duggars were definitely used as a recruiting tool for IBP.
00:04:47:15 - 00:04:52:20
Speaker 3
God has opened up a lot of ministry opportunities for our family. It's not a.
00:04:52:20 - 00:04:55:19
Speaker 4
Show. It's really not. It's our life. It really.
00:04:55:19 - 00:05:12:00
Speaker 2
Is. I would have gotten Christian fundamentalism was largely underground. They had their own schools, their own entertainment, their own everything, really. They had no reason to interact with secular culture. And then the Duggars came around and it suddenly was mainstream.
00:05:12:23 - 00:05:33:16
Stacey
when there is sexual abuse in these kinds of situations. It's it's because there is no just like Orthodox. There is no education around sex, how to have sex. What it means women are, you know, in this purity culture, they're told to cover things so that the your eyes go to the countenance.
00:05:33:17 - 00:05:42:06
Stacey
It's about the countenance. So if a man or somebody looks at a woman, it's her fault for not being modest and covering up.
00:05:44:10 - 00:06:01:21
Speaker 3
We're gonna be talking about clothing. Why is this such an area of contention? The problem is that men have a problem with their eyes. The solution is to avoid eye traps. The shorter the skirt, the more vicious the trap.
00:06:01:21 - 00:06:14:04
Stacey
It's her fault if she's raped because she should have screamed out, I'm Lord, Lord, help me. Save me. If you don't scream to the to the Lord to help you be saved during a rape, it is your fault.
00:06:14:07 - 00:06:27:24
Speaker 1
With a book 36 teaches the law of crying out, which is that if a woman is sexually assaulted and she doesn't cry out to God for help while it's happening, she's equally to blame.
00:06:28:02 - 00:06:55:02
Stacey
It is your fault because a man loses control. Similar to last week when we were talking about, you know, the men, if they have a heart on all the time because they're walking around looking at girls. If you have no experience with women or men or people in general in a sexual way and have no history, no, education, you're going to wonder and be curious and then usually that goes into abuse,
00:06:55:06 - 00:07:07:15
Speaker 3
In one of the morning wisdom searches. They had us go around in this circle and talk about if we had been attacked or molested or raped and what we did to deserve that attack.
00:07:08:01 - 00:07:15:01
Stacey
sexual abuse, physical abuse, child abuse, every everything you can think of under the sun.
00:07:15:07 - 00:07:23:02
Stacey
And it is mind blowing how hypocritical this work is that they're doing
00:07:23:16 - 00:07:40:02
Speaker 1
they believed in physical punishment for nearly everything. It was a fear based tactic and it was very effective. In my family, my mom was my primary abuser. She would scream at us, she would threaten us. She would beat us mercilessly at one point.
00:07:40:04 - 00:07:45:09
Speaker 1
She beat me for an entire hour in a church bathroom in an effort to break my will. As she said,
00:07:45:24 - 00:07:57:12
Dori
I just I want to just make sure that everybody knows. So this documentary did focus on the Duggars and especially the their oldest son,
00:07:57:13 - 00:07:58:06
Dori
Josh Duggar
00:07:58:06 - 00:08:01:08
Dori
who a lot of people know.
00:08:01:08 - 00:08:14:19
Dori
Josh molested his sisters and he also was convicted of child porn. And but his parents knew about this for a very long time and covered it up.
00:08:57:16 - 00:09:13:22
Dori
And therein lies the hypocrisy. But also, like Stacey, you were saying, with a lot of these cults, these religious cults, they, don't talk about sex to their children. It's always taboo.
00:09:14:03 - 00:09:18:07
Dori
You don't kiss until you are married.
00:09:18:07 - 00:09:22:03
Dori
You don't have sex until you are married.
00:09:22:05 - 00:09:24:06
Stacey
You don't do a frontal hug.
00:09:24:08 - 00:10:09:02
Dori
Right? No. So, I don't know, bump in private until, you know, dry humping ladies and Joe. But but so I think that where we hear about all this abuse and all of the molestation that goes on to children, I fervently believe it is because of these laws and their kids when they marry. Most of these people in these in these fundamentalist Christian organizations, and also like the Hasidic Jews that we talked about before, the Orthodox Jews, you get married to have sex.
00:10:09:07 - 00:10:10:24
Dori
Essentially, you are.
00:10:10:24 - 00:10:15:00
Stacey
To have children, to not to have not to enjoy it, not to enjoy it.
00:10:15:02 - 00:10:28:00
Dori
No. You're courted at like, you know, 16 and 17 years old and then you these are your betrothed. So the only way you can have sex is in these fundamentalist
00:10:28:00 - 00:10:49:24
Dori
groups is if you get married and you have sex to procreate, create. It's not necessarily about pleasure. However, the men get the pleasure. The women just lay there, spread their legs, and they're like, I just want to have kids.
00:10:49:24 - 00:10:58:21
Dori
That's what this fucked up group is all about. And it me furious.
00:10:58:21 - 00:11:03:16
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:11:03:16 - 00:11:26:16
Stacey
I've had a little more time to process this idle stuff. There is so much, you know, underlying. You know, I've also spread my research out because I was so interested in the Duggars. And, you know, there's there's all these things that you have to do for your husband. If you notice, she talks in this higher register and she has to look up at him while he's talking.
00:11:26:18 - 00:11:52:23
Stacey
You must look up at the father and then you talk to your kids like this. Now the kids only are homeschooled in the IBP, the Institute, and they basically have principles. And then you are invited to God's house to be one of the Gothard girls, which is a big honor. The guys are girls, I think, three dozen of them came out against him, that he raped them and or that he touched them inappropriately.
00:11:53:00 - 00:12:15:04
Stacey
You're telling these people no sex, no this, no sex, no sex, no sex, and then you're abusing them. What goes on in that person? This is something we'll talk to Doctor John about. But you're abusing them, so you're you're hypocritical. You're becoming this cult leader so that you can abuse people and keep them controlled without asking questions. These women feel like they're being raped.
00:12:15:04 - 00:12:33:04
Stacey
They don't know what sex is. Can you imagine not knowing what it is? So I've been listening to another source, which we're going to talk about the Duggars, but because of my interest in the Duggars, I started listening to the cult. I left Behind, which is a podcast, and I found it on Spotify with Amanda, who was in the IBL.
00:12:33:06 - 00:12:46:06
Stacey
I BLP called it a very similar situation to the Duggar girls. Ginger and Jill. Actually, it might have been a joke. Yeah, she names, I think it was Jesse.
00:12:46:12 - 00:12:47:09
Dori
Jesse. Jesse.
00:12:47:11 - 00:13:09:16
Stacey
Jesse. Jessa and Jill. Jill is the one that's out of the cult. Now, Jesse is not. And Ginger is still in a similar called called Calvinism. But she's not in the IB LP group anymore. But I, I listen to about ten episodes. When I was driving to Miami of Ohio about this woman, Amanda, and her upbringing, which was very similar.
00:13:09:16 - 00:13:32:15
Stacey
She grew up in Chicago, in the suburbs, and she, was abused by her brother from when she was five years old. And he and her parents, they did in the similar to the Duggars. They did nothing. They just told him to apologize twice. They didn't help her. They didn't take her out. She's had so much trauma.
00:13:32:15 - 00:14:01:24
Stacey
This girl, she's had more trauma than anybody I've ever heard of. So you've got that and then you've got Jill Duggar talking about how she doesn't want to talk about it because it's so hard to talk about. Can you imagine if your parents did not reprimand your child in? The person that Josh went to to get treatment was another predator, another sexual predator, a friend?
00:14:02:01 - 00:14:28:07
Stacey
It is. It is. It's so unchristian. It's it's so unchristian that it's it's almost anti-Christian. This is not what Jesus taught. This is not what he wasn't into taking babies and putting them on the mat. And if they grab for some slap them, you have to train it up. It's called training, a blanket training where you slap the kid and you beat them into submission because no age is is, you know, if any kid is crying.
00:14:28:09 - 00:14:32:18
Stacey
Nope. You got to get them discipline. You got to let get them listening.
00:14:32:18 - 00:14:37:08
Speaker 1
I know that there was a particular style of child training called blanket training.
00:14:37:09 - 00:14:59:18
Speaker 3
You put the kid on a blanket probably six month old, and you put something they want just outside of reach off the blanket. And when they go to reach for you, you hit them. And if they continue to reach for it, you hit them again. The idea is you're breaking the rebellious spirit they are born with. So blanket training was also covered in Michelle Duggar's book.
00:14:59:20 - 00:15:20:04
Speaker 4
I would focus on blanket training, calling out, okay boys, it's blanket time. Oh, isn't this fun? Come pick a toy so we can have blanket time. We're going to practice all day, mama. See it? Really still look at me with people. Smile when I see that smile now. No wiggles. Be still.
00:15:20:04 - 00:15:34:06
Dori
There's so many topics I and I know you are so passionate about this. There's so many. I almost feel like we could do, like, 12 episodes about this, but I'd like.
00:15:34:06 - 00:15:35:08
Stacey
To do more, actually.
00:15:35:13 - 00:16:08:06
Dori
Yeah, I but I think it's it, it's, I think like you had mentioned to, about this made up group, the IB LP with Bill Gothard, just like a Scientology where, you know, L Ron Hubbard is Xenu and we're creating this like, these are people not from necessarily religious backgrounds. And I have to say, Bill Gothard, who is still alive, who lives in Illinois, where we are from.
00:16:08:08 - 00:16:10:04
Dori
Oh, Brookdale. No, I think.
00:16:10:06 - 00:16:11:13
Stacey
He's still yeah, he's.
00:16:11:18 - 00:16:55:06
Dori
Still, never been married. Never been married. Interesting that the cult leader who makes all the rules for all of his followers is has never himself been married, nor, as I guess people are saying, has had children but keeps coming up with all of these trainings like you had mentioned, like with the blanket training and all these other like child labor trainings, he comes up with all of this as it's just basically word vomit from his brain of, oh, how
00:16:55:06 - 00:16:55:18
Dori
can
00:16:55:18 - 00:17:08:20
Dori
we like keep women and children down so that the man rules it just out of his crazy mind.
00:17:08:22 - 00:17:50:20
Dori
And then, like you said, two, all these women are now coming out saying that he has sexually and emotionally used us. How many times have we heard this from cults over every it's every religious cult over and over and over again. And when doctor or Doctor John comes out, I want to like I'm always fascinated by the survivor stories, because there were quite a few survivors that were interviewed for this, as well as Jill Duggar, the one of the daughters of the Duggars.
00:17:50:22 - 00:18:12:06
Dori
You know, I'm very, always very curious to know how these people have the strength to endure this for their whole childhood and then come out on the other side and help spread the word for others not to join these types of groups.
00:18:12:08 - 00:18:27:08
Stacey
I'm hoping that this is starting to die down a little bit, but I don't really know if it is. You know, listening to Amanda talking about, you know, she's been tried to get out of this cult and it took her forever. And her family doesn't talk to her. And they took the side of her brother, the one that abused her.
00:18:27:13 - 00:18:51:09
Stacey
And you see this also with the Duggars. They take the SAT. I mean, they don't they don't take the side of the victim. They consider the brother a victim. And then I want to mention Michael and Debbie Pearl, the most dangerous, dangerous people on the planet. They are the ones who wrote to train up a child and preparing to be a helpmeet.
00:18:51:11 - 00:19:14:02
Stacey
They are these. If these, auspices of No Greater Joy ministries, they're pastors, missionaries, and even jealous and evangelists for over 60 years. Sorry. Excuse me. And they they talk about homeschooling. They talk about beating. They talk about just everything that's disgusting about. And this is look at the guy. I mean, he's just, you know, come on, shave your beard.
00:19:14:04 - 00:19:17:07
Stacey
You know, like, who are you? And they are just they are like.
00:19:17:07 - 00:19:20:16
Dori
The new David Letterman. Like the Dave. Yeah, the new.
00:19:20:18 - 00:19:46:09
Stacey
Yeah. It's it's the evil Letterman. Sorry, David. We know you're not evil, but I mean, these people, Michael and and Debbie with an eye pearl are just. They're part of the problem because of these books. In this training a child. And like we talked about in the first episode we ever did about Gwen Shamblin, about, you know, isolating kids and putting them in a room with a Bible and leaving them in a room for 3 or 4 days at Bill Gothard mansion.
00:19:46:09 - 00:20:03:14
Stacey
And then his brother was also abusing people in the North Woods. He had a house. He just shipped them over there. No, no, no therapy, nothing that could help them. Just move them over, move them around, try to change it. Get somebody married. If you if Bill Gothard marries that girl, then we can. The cases are, you know.
00:20:04:01 - 00:20:24:23
Speaker 2
Bill Gothard had actually been the subject of a sex scandal back in 1980. Steve Gothard, Bill's brother, was using his position of power in Ivy League to sexually harass women and to coerce them into performing sex acts on him.
00:20:25:00 - 00:20:47:09
Speaker 3
People are coming forward and saying that Steve has sexually abused and harassed multiple people in the office, and so what Bill did was take his brother, sent him out to a campus that has even less oversight than the main campus does, and then leaves Steve to basically do whatever he wants out there.
00:20:47:11 - 00:20:57:05
Speaker 4
The Northwoods Conference Center in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Tubing. Kayaking, and hiking were just a few of the many activities they were able to enjoy.
00:20:57:07 - 00:21:01:05
Speaker 3
There is a landing strip for the Learjet that they owned.
00:21:01:07 - 00:21:20:16
Speaker 2
Girls who disobeyed Bill got sent to Steve in the Northwoods at one point. Bill Gothard is caught with a young woman in a cabin. And so this kind of comes to a head, and Gothard and his brother are confronted by everyone who's working for them.
00:21:20:18 - 00:21:40:15
Speaker 3
Bill keeps trying to find ways to keep Steve in the organization, and one of his solutions is, well, why don't we just have him marry one of the women? And when you try to get an understanding of what was going on in this culture and how women viewed and how is sexuality viewed, story is terrifying.
00:21:40:15 - 00:22:22:06
Dori
guess the fear that I always have are that these people are infiltrating now. Politics, and they are getting elected. Madison Cawthorn. Cawthorn was at his name. Who's now? Not even. I don't even think he's in politics anymore. But they are. They are. That is the goal of the, like the Duggars, the idol that is the goal to get people into politics to then basically have our country, everyone in our country live like these people.
00:22:22:08 - 00:22:44:10
Dori
We should always, you know, look up to the man. The man is the one who has the say. The women are just meant to bear children. We, the children are treated like shit until they can marry, until they're old enough to get married.
00:22:44:10 - 00:23:05:12
Stacey
The man is the ultimate authority. The father's the authority until you get married. The authority then switches to the husband. So until you get married, even if you're even if you're 20, you're can still be beaten by your parents, physically beaten. And then you get beaten by your husband.
00:23:05:18 - 00:23:06:01
Dori
Yep.
00:23:06:07 - 00:23:14:22
Stacey
No, I think now is a good time. You know, John has been in the green room for a while, probably eating all the donuts. So let's let him in.
00:23:14:22 - 00:23:19:17
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:23:19:17 - 00:23:20:22
Stacey
Hi, John.
00:23:20:24 - 00:23:23:23
Dr John
Hi. Damn good donuts. Do you know?
00:23:23:23 - 00:23:25:10
Stacey
Yeah, sure.
00:23:25:12 - 00:23:30:13
Dr John
If we had a sponsor, we could, you know, mention the name of these delicious donuts. But.
00:23:30:15 - 00:23:34:12
Stacey
Yeah, maybe. Maybe we'll get a sponsor for donuts or sponsor dunkers.
00:23:34:12 - 00:23:39:02
Dori
Hey, spunky dunkers in Palatine. Do you want to, sponsor us?
00:23:39:04 - 00:23:39:18
Stacey
Oh. I love.
00:23:39:18 - 00:23:42:05
Dr John
Spaghetti donuts and.
00:23:42:07 - 00:23:48:18
Stacey
Do right donuts. Spunky dunkers try to say that 20 times an hour. All right. So anyway, John, shiny happy people.
00:23:48:19 - 00:23:49:22
Dr John
Yeah.
00:23:49:24 - 00:23:58:19
Stacey
Bring. They all just have to smile. Tell us, what you took away from the, you know, from the documentary that I've watched, like, three times now.
00:23:58:21 - 00:24:25:22
Dr John
Yeah. I, you know, it was shocking. I, a couple of things I want to say right off the bat, I didn't really follow the Duggars. I had no interest in the Duggars. When this whole thing came out. You know, the 19 children's show or whatever. And I think that's an important point, is that, a person like myself, doesn't get attracted to, that kind of, show or material.
00:24:25:24 - 00:24:54:07
Dr John
So we're really pandering to a group of people that, you know, Stacey and, you know, with all due respect, you know, people that really get sucked up into that, the voyeurism of these people. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with it, you know, it's it's entertainment, etc. and that, you know, both of you talked about the anger I after watching, this and I have to say, I'm also angry at TLC.
00:24:54:09 - 00:25:33:06
Dr John
I'm angry at how this how can you have the moral compass that would exploit these people and use them and shape these episodes words to convey a particular message? And they did it just for the ratings. I don't think these people, we're we're into it themselves, you know, but you know, it. I was very angered by TLC and how they manipulated the shows and and put it on for a, sensational effect.
00:25:33:08 - 00:25:58:14
Dr John
So there was my anger, so, another another take away was just the disingenuousness of, the Duggars. And one little moment, really. And Capsule8 did this for me. If you remember, in the first episode, he's baptizing his own child, so this is important. He's baptizing his own child and he was in the of the father, son, and Holy Spirit.
00:25:58:14 - 00:26:17:24
Dr John
Amen. You know, it's like, are you really believing what you're doing? Or is that just going through the motions? And even the father son relationship, really. And and I just saw that is such an example of being disingenuous and not believing what you're doing.
00:26:19:04 - 00:26:20:20
Speaker 1
Gothard turned.
00:26:20:20 - 00:26:28:24
Speaker 1
Every father into a cult leader and every home into an island.
00:26:29:01 - 00:26:58:04
Speaker 2
My father was very attracted to the patriarchal teachings of I, up the control and protection that it would have afforded him. It was exceptionally valuable to him, especially as I would come to learn later that he was a predator. When I was 12, he was convicted for sexual assault against a minor. So it destroyed my idea of what a family was.
00:26:58:06 - 00:27:21:22
Speaker 2
And. The support that my mother received through Ibgp to stay with him, to continue to bring him back into our home. Was deeply traumatic as well. This kind of stuff was swept under the rug. That's something that I experienced directly.
00:27:21:22 - 00:27:31:18
Dori
I had to also not to tuna horn, but I also never watched the Duggars like I really, honestly knew nothing about them until
00:27:31:18 - 00:27:33:08
Dori
this documentary
00:27:33:08 - 00:27:41:13
Dori
couple of years ago. And then obviously, like Stacy, have watched it a couple times since. But I think you're spot on, doctor.
00:27:41:15 - 00:28:18:11
Dori
The fact that TLC, made these people almost enviable, like, I think that some of the survivors had mentioned that, you know, they'd watched the Duggars and they saw their lives in this, but it was more, tragic than, oh, they're they're promoting this wonderful family. It was like, can't these people see that these children don't have emotion, that this is how I live to my life?
00:28:18:11 - 00:28:39:19
Dori
So the survivors found it terrible. The TLC gave them a platform, and it also made them become so much more popular. And to have people want to be a part of the IBP because it looks so great on TV. So what do you kind of think about all of that?
00:28:39:19 - 00:28:41:01
Stacey
Well.
00:28:41:03 - 00:29:02:08
Dr John
When I watched the documentary and, to let the audience know when I, when I watched this for our Pod Kandi podcast, I read notes, you know, I write down notes, I study the document. I'm just not watching it with a bowl of popcorn or a donut and, a beer, you know, so I'm studying the whole thing.
00:29:02:08 - 00:29:34:02
Dr John
And as maybe within the first 15 minutes, I wrote down a note and I have it here in front of me right now. Freak show. You know, the this TLC created a freak show. Now we love freak shows. You know, I was fascinated when I was a little kid. I don't know, maybe it's dating me, but, you know, we'd have carnivals around Chicago area, you know, neighborhood carnivals, but they'd always have this kind of creepy freak show kind of house you went into.
00:29:34:04 - 00:29:51:05
Dr John
And, we love freak shows, and and TLC was playing on that. So I think the the freak show aspect of it is just, very alluring and and still learning to this day. I still am, you know, fascinated by freak show.
00:29:51:07 - 00:30:11:22
Stacey
Well, you know, what I'm thinking is that, you know, they glorified this show. They didn't they, you know, they they talked about, you know, the religion, they talked about idol a little bit like, you know, their home schooling and stuff. They didn't go into detail about Bill Gothard, Mr. Gothard, who is their god. They didn't go into detail, but I think it's so interesting that.
00:30:12:01 - 00:30:12:24
Dori
Only when.
00:30:12:24 - 00:30:29:09
Stacey
Josh got arrested, then the show went off the air. And that only happened because Oprah got a call when they were there and found out. And it's like, what about all that leading up to it? There's these two cameramen that they talk about. I mean, weren't they seeing, you know.
00:30:29:11 - 00:31:00:07
Dr John
And I think it Stacy, great point, but I think it goes even deeper. It it was taken off the air because TLC was afraid of the blowback that they would get for having this, you know, supporting this whole family. Well, my God, whatever executive was in charge of this for TLC in the first place should have saw this train wreck coming, that they were going to be called the task for promoting these these freaky, creepy people.
00:31:00:09 - 00:31:14:00
Dr John
And I just want to stick in one really quick point. You know, I, I am not in this field, but what obstetrician would advocate a woman have a 19 children?
00:31:14:00 - 00:31:27:09
Dr John
when I was in med school, I think we heard, you know, warnings about, you know, 4 or 5 children and the and the toll that takes on a woman's body, let alone 19 children. But anyway, Dorie.
00:31:27:11 - 00:31:29:01
Dori
You know my. Well,
00:31:29:01 - 00:31:48:13
Dori
my vagina's hurting just thinking about that. I have not had any children, so, for me, 19 sounds like, you know, something extremely foreign to me. But. So, hey, in my 50s, I'm going to get started on birthing,
00:31:48:13 - 00:31:49:23
Dori
00:31:50:04 - 00:31:57:02
Dori
kids. But, I think, like, with the whole TLC thing.
00:31:57:04 - 00:32:24:20
Dori
And we also need to mention, like, Jill, who is one of the daughters and one of the main people that was interviewed for this and kind of going against her family. The kids had no rights. The kids had to do the show right. They had to do the show all these years. And when Jill became closer to an adult, she didn't want to keep doing the shows.
00:32:24:20 - 00:32:59:14
Dori
She was in a newer relationship. She didn't want to do a spin off show. Once Josh, got convicted of child pornography, she didn't want to continue. And they also made Jill and her sister, her parents, they the parents made them do an interview on Fox News about how their brother. Oh, it's not that big of a deal that he molested all those years,
00:32:59:14 - 00:33:12:10
Speaker 1
the survivors of the abuse go on The Megan Kelly Show and are kind of forced to kind of relive that trauma and kind of downplay it. In hindsight, I wouldn't have done the
00:33:12:10 - 00:33:13:11
Speaker 1
Megan Kelly stuff.
00:33:13:11 - 00:33:25:18
Speaker 1
I felt like I was in a place again of like, bearing the burden and the weight of of just.
00:33:25:20 - 00:33:31:12
Speaker 1
Even though you volunteer, it's like you feel obligated to, like, help.
00:33:31:14 - 00:33:35:18
Speaker 2
How old were you when Josh inappropriately touched you?
00:33:35:23 - 00:33:52:00
Speaker 1
I was 12. I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or a pedophile or a rapist, and people are saying, I'm like that is so overboard and a lie. Really?
00:33:53:04 - 00:34:11:14
Speaker 1
And in our case, you know, it's very mild compared to what happened system. I know so many girls go through things that are way worse for me. I'm sad because this is my older brother, who I love a lot, and I had to make that choice to forgive him. You know, it wasn't something somebody forced like, oh, you need to do this.
00:34:11:14 - 00:34:13:07
Speaker 1
You know, it's like you have to make that
00:34:13:07 - 00:34:15:15
Speaker 1
decision for yourself.
00:34:15:22 - 00:34:17:03
Dori
John.
00:34:17:05 - 00:34:31:01
Dori
How in God's name. And I say that solely knowing in God's name do the parents not give a shit about their children?
00:34:31:01 - 00:34:58:01
Dr John
Well, I want to. I want to shock you both. I deal with a lot of sexual abuse and my practice of of people that have been victims of sexual abuse, molestation, rape when they were kids. And this is not uncommon. To this day, this week, I must have seen 2 or 3 people that have been sexually abused as kids.
00:34:58:03 - 00:35:26:21
Dr John
And here's the point. The point is, every time this has happened is typically a father or stepfather. The again, the male putting themselves upon, the young girl, the mothers don't say anything. This is not uncommon. And if there's one message that I hope our podcast gets across to people, you have to speak up about these things.
00:35:26:23 - 00:35:44:04
Dr John
You have to speak up. Because we see in this documentary and what we're talking about today, our dear audience, that when you don't speak up, it becomes so much more devastating and so much more damaging.
00:35:44:06 - 00:36:04:13
Stacey
That the other issue is, you know, the statute of limitations runs out sometimes because these kids don't say anything till later and then nothing can happen, which is what happened with Amanda. You know, she did tell she did speak out and tell her parents they didn't do anything. Then she spoke out again when her brother was, you know, shoving things up her and she was bleeding.
00:36:04:15 - 00:36:19:21
Stacey
She comes downstairs, they said, well, we'll talk to her, but they never did anything. And then years go by and she finally went to the authorities. But the problem is, is that there's no proof, there's no, you know, so you have to say something, right? We got to call the police, I guess, I don't know. What do you do?
00:36:19:21 - 00:36:30:18
Dr John
Absolutely. You call the police and, again, it it is so common that the again, the moms, the grandmas, the. Are they.
00:36:30:18 - 00:36:32:15
Stacey
Embarrassed? Are they ashamed?
00:36:32:17 - 00:36:58:19
Dr John
Because there's a lot of things involved. It's multi determined. There's no shame. There's their own safety and security. The guy who's going to come after them that's a big fear. Their own security in terms of money. Oftentimes the the husband is the major breadwinner in the family. And there of the women are afraid of saying anything because they what what will they do?
00:36:58:21 - 00:37:24:01
Dr John
They'll become a single mom with, damaged kids and no, resources. So men hang this over, the women and, they're afraid. They're afraid to say anything. But we have to get the message for women to speak up and speak out. You're going to be okay. There's plenty of resources out there. Women's rights groups, shelters, etc..
00:37:24:01 - 00:37:31:16
Dr John
And I know it's going to be tough, but it's important. It's very important to speak up about this abuse.
00:37:31:18 - 00:37:49:09
Stacey
I have one more question. I mean, this is getting back to the Duggars. You know, they wanted to do this, you know, so, like, you're right about TLC. They just like boring stuff out. Like, now let's do counting on. But we won't mention the abuse, so we'll just have you and your sister do this thing. They didn't want to do it, Jim Bob, you know he didn't pay these kids.
00:37:49:09 - 00:38:13:23
Stacey
He just raked in the dough for Jesus, for the Lord. You know, if you can use that for that everything. That's all the excuses are that. But think about Jill. When she had her baby and wanted to do it privately with her husband, and they made her bring cameras in that room, she said, no, no, doesn't mean no, I mean I that made me so upset for her.
00:38:13:23 - 00:38:25:21
Stacey
But she has no privacy, no, no autonomy. Like she just and and they're not even paying her. He made them sign another contract for the rest of their lives that they would be filmed on camera. And he wasn't paying them.
00:38:25:23 - 00:38:27:12
Dr John
Yeah. Yeah, I.
00:38:27:14 - 00:38:31:12
Stacey
I think, you know, by using them for slave labor, free labor, labor.
00:38:31:17 - 00:39:07:07
Dr John
I picked up on that throughout the thread, throughout all of the episodes, four episodes in this documentary and the the kids are always peppering their conversation. Well, it was for the show. It was for the show. Now, let's face it, yes, they are under subjugation, but they also got a kick out of doing the show. I mean, you're you're a little you're a kid, you're on TV, you're you're kind of a pseudo celebrity, etc. but this goes back to what we've talked about in many of our episodes.
00:39:07:07 - 00:39:14:08
Dr John
This kind of brainwashing and control that happens to kids was for the show. It was for the show. Yeah.
00:39:14:10 - 00:40:01:11
Dori
Oh. So so these, you know, these documentaries come out on these on, like, ibgp on other cult, but they're still thriving. And I understand that they don't, you know, most of these, don't allow their members to look on the internet or, you know, do any of their own research, watch documentaries. But what about all who know about this, watch this, and then still join these types of organizations that are cults in the name of, I get it, that they're trying to better themselves with the law that
00:40:01:11 - 00:40:06:15
Dori
but how are they still so popular?
00:40:06:17 - 00:40:27:13
Dr John
Let me let me address then. And and the answer may be kind of simple. Maybe should I say fundamentalist, and that people are looking for answers. You know, Stacey brought up these, Pearl, these, you know, I forget their name. Michael and Debbie Pearl.
00:40:27:13 - 00:40:29:08
Stacey
With Michael and Debbie.
00:40:29:10 - 00:41:02:02
Dr John
Unbelievably torturous discipline towards kids thinking. And how did teaching how to spank your kid. But people are looking for answers with kids. Kids can be wild. Kids can be get into trouble. Kids can be embarrassing and we're all looking for ways in which to stop that. And, you know, as crazy as it sounds, these extreme methods, you know, they, they stop kids from from from acting out.
00:41:02:04 - 00:41:28:20
Dr John
You guys mentioned the whole blanket training, and the audience needs to know this is what's shocking about this. The blanket training was you put your child on the blanket and then just out of their reach, you put something they would really like, something they want, and you spank them and you slap their hand so that they can't grab what they're want.
00:41:28:20 - 00:41:39:17
Dr John
And this comes from these are infants. And the philosophy behind it was we're training them that, you know, to be able to take discipline and to.
00:41:39:20 - 00:41:43:22
Stacey
Kill their instincts. Yeah, yeah. It just kills their instincts. That's the.
00:41:43:22 - 00:41:44:22
Dr John
Crazy.
00:41:44:24 - 00:42:07:16
Dori
They're starting at six months. They do this at six months. And Michelle, the mom, Michelle Duggar, is like, oh, look, kid, it's blanket training time. Like these. Like, it's a fun thing to do. They have to brainwash to your children right from the get go.
00:42:07:18 - 00:42:08:13
Dr John
Yeah.
00:42:08:15 - 00:42:14:08
Stacey
And I don't want your kid to think for themselves, you know, you can't think for him.
00:42:14:10 - 00:42:56:04
Dr John
And by the way, you you mentioned from months, old. I think the audience needs understand something. We threw out terms with Josh Duggar of his child abuse and child pornography. The the type of pornography that Josh was into is probably the most vile, ugly, evil pornography on kids you can possibly imagine torturing children that are, tied lures and babies torturing them, as well as sexually abusing them.
00:42:56:06 - 00:43:10:07
Dr John
Babies and toddlers. It it's the most vile, sickest child pornography you can imagine. I just want to throw that in because Dory reminded that when she talked about how young these kids are that they're abusing.
00:43:10:07 - 00:43:23:18
Stacey
the kind of pornography that he was, you know, first he was he had the molestation, he went away. That's that didn't cancel the show. It was when he had the chat where they found the child porn in his computer, and he goes, oh, what's on their child porn?
00:43:23:20 - 00:43:29:11
Dr John
Yeah. And and not only again, we see the parents covering them up. We have TLC covering that up.
00:43:29:13 - 00:43:57:13
Stacey
Yeah. Everyone's covering it up in the in as you said, the the pornography was the most vile, horrific, abusive stuff. And yet Michelle and Jim Bob have never. They're so sociopathic. I guess they just don't break character. Well, I problem you know he's had a problem and we're dealing with it.
00:43:57:15 - 00:44:27:24
Dori
I don't I I you can't like I don't want to I'm not a Josh apologist at all. He's obviously very sick. But like you guys are saying what we're all saying. I blame the parents. It is the parents. It is the whole system of this organization and of a lot of cults like that. Oh, Josh grew up thinking, well, this will be okay because they kept everybody, kept covering it up.
00:44:28:01 - 00:45:14:22
Dr John
Absolutely. So it's what we call it's what we call tacit permission. You know, you get you're you're really being enabled and you get permission to do what you're doing. So and that's another thing that we know is that when that happens in families like this, in organizations like this, it's it's an organizational dynamic. And it goes back to a question you both posed before I got on this show about, well, how does this leader, this Gothard guy who espouses these, values of, you know, chastity and, and, etc., etc. and yet privately, he's, he's raping people and touching people and abusing people.
00:45:14:22 - 00:45:46:07
Dr John
Why? It's we have a term in my field called sublimation. And what he was doing was sublimating his own twisted evil, desires and needs and sort of like, a cover up of how could I nobody, nobody would come to me and accuse me of doing these vile, evil things because my whole program is about good values in the Lord and things like that.
00:45:46:09 - 00:45:52:14
Dr John
So these people, in their own ignorance, think that that's going to cover up their, their, their evilness.
00:45:52:14 - 00:46:11:11
Stacey
And do they know this consciously? I mean, like when when somebody becomes a priest so that they can can and I'm not saying this is bad. I mean, maybe some people want to cover up their homosexuality or there's, you know, sexuality or abuse of kids, but it's a similar thing where you just hiding behind a lie.
00:46:11:13 - 00:46:34:03
Dr John
Right? And some people know what some people don't. I don't know what this this author does. Not the most brilliant individual or what what's what's it phrase you know, the brightest bulb in the box, you know, which is another thing that aggravates me about these groups. You look at this guy, he's a mealy mouth. He hardly moves his lips when he talks.
00:46:34:05 - 00:46:43:10
Dr John
He's got a haircut from the 1940s. You know, a helmet, hair, kind of. A guy wears a suit to the beach like
00:46:43:10 - 00:46:50:24
Dori
wears his suit to the beach. Yeah, like I want to know. Like, do I want to see some? I want to go look up on the internet
00:46:50:24 - 00:46:53:09
Dori
because I want to see him in that three piece suit.
00:46:53:09 - 00:47:05:20
Dr John
There was a few seconds in one of the episodes where they had some kind of loophole, or kind of some kind of party. Everybody's in Hawaii and kind of get up and he's in a suit. The Saints, by the way.
00:47:05:20 - 00:47:38:20
Dori
It's good for SPF, it's good for protection. So. Right. Isn't it all? Doesn't this all come down to the do as I say, not as I do. So it's all hypocrisy. It's do as I say. But I'm going to do every single thing against what I say. And these people still follow fervently and believe these quote unquote leaders.
00:47:38:24 - 00:47:46:09
Dori
Stacy showing a suited up for the Bill Gothard not at the beach, but he is suited up.
00:47:46:09 - 00:47:50:15
Dr John
With it with his little kind of used cars car salesman smile that he's got on.
00:47:50:15 - 00:48:03:06
Stacey
He's so gross. You know, even when he got fired, you know, his board got rid of him. They still kept the stupid books that he wrote, these stupid books that are outdated. And let's just talk about the umbrella of protection.
00:48:04:12 - 00:48:15:21
Speaker 3
Every one of us has umbrellas of protection. If we get out from under that umbrella, we expose ourselves to the realm and the power of Satan's control.
00:48:15:23 - 00:48:18:24
Speaker 4
Bill Gothard main thrust was authority. Authority, authority.
00:48:19:00 - 00:48:45:22
Speaker 2
God creates an umbrella of authority over us. The kids obey the parents. The parents obey the pastor. The pastor obeys Bill Gothard. And I guess Bill Gothard talks to God himself. You must always obey your chain of command. And that included wives obeying their husbands. If you're under your umbrella of authority, nothing bad can happen to you.
00:48:45:22 - 00:48:52:10
Stacey
you need to be protected by your father, your husband, and then her husband speaks to God.
00:48:52:10 - 00:49:19:18
Stacey
But if you're not, if you're not under the umbrella of protection, then a demon or the devil will get to you. You will get. So the umbrella protection is basically another way of saying, we're isolating you from the world, from the secular world, and making you compliant and submissive. Yeah. And it's it's, you know, he stepped down 34 women, accused him of sexual harassment and molestation, with some incidents allegedly occurring when the victims were minors.
00:49:19:20 - 00:49:36:11
Stacey
He was sued and it was dismissed. Statute of limitations had been exceeded again with the statute of limitations. I'm so sick of that. You know, it's like these people don't have the education to know, to tell people because they think they're going to get in trouble because it's their fault. I mean, it all starts, goes back, back, back.
00:49:36:13 - 00:49:58:09
Dr John
Well, if you recall that one, I forget her name right now, but she was a blond woman. She said, Oh, I'm sorry, the one with the. She colored her hair kind of pinkish. And when, the documents are talking about the lawsuits that were flying towards the Duggars and and Gothard, she said, I, I would really want to help.
00:49:58:09 - 00:50:27:04
Dr John
But I'm so afraid of how much money and power they have that I decided not to go into the the lawsuit. And this is how they get people, you know, is that they they have. And I would say to anybody who feels that they're involved in something like this and they're powerless, we're not powerless. In fact, I love that quote from his name was Chad Harris was on the documentary.
00:50:27:06 - 00:50:53:05
Dr John
You know, it was I think was the last quote and the last episode. He said, you know, the whole result of all of this, what we learned is that the people really do have the power. And that gets to, you know, what you both were bringing up about? How does an individual have the courage and the, you know, the the strength to stand up against all of this?
00:50:53:07 - 00:51:00:21
Dr John
And that's really what Chad was talking about, is that we do have the power. They don't have the power. And people need to understand that,
00:51:00:21 - 00:51:00:24
Dr John
you.
00:51:00:24 - 00:51:19:12
Stacey
Know, you know, remember when Harvey said, you know, she knew that this was weird shit? Like when she was using that rag she knew inherently and this Amanda and this other one, even though she was brainwashed in this other cult one, she knew that there was something wrong. You have to have that nugget.
00:51:19:14 - 00:51:53:10
Dr John
And and I'm glad you set me up for this next comment, because also this same Chad Harris said, you know, and I thought this was perfect of a statement. You know, if that little voice in the back of your head says that this is wrong or it's weird or it's crazy, don't lose. That is and it probably is, you know, and, I just I pumped my fist when I was watching the, the documentary going, yeah, Chad.
00:51:53:10 - 00:52:10:08
Dr John
That's it. And that's the message to our audience. If this seems strange, something like this comes into your life and it seems strange. A little mealy mouthed guy with helmet hair is exposing some crazy shit. It's probably crazy shit,
00:52:10:08 - 00:52:14:19
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:52:14:19 - 00:52:26:24
Dori
know we could do, again, multiple, multiple episodes on this and I think we're going to because, I did find out that there is going to be
00:52:26:24 - 00:52:28:04
Dori
a sequel
00:52:28:04 - 00:52:36:01
Dori
The second season of Shiny Happy People is going to be premiering on Amazon Prime.
00:52:36:01 - 00:52:41:12
Dori
And, I, I, for one, would definitely like to,
00:52:41:12 - 00:52:53:16
Dori
maybe do another episode on this, as we move forward. But because we could just go on and on about IBP and the Duggars for sure.
00:52:53:18 - 00:52:54:15
Stacey
Absolutely.
00:52:54:15 - 00:53:02:18
Stacey
Shiny, happy, happy people at, two season two. A teenage holy war is what it's called.
00:53:02:18 - 00:53:16:16
Stacey
I want to say, I know this is a little cheesy, but I want to thank well, first of all, you guys, but I would like to thank the people that were on that Shiny Happy People podcast. One of my favorite YouTube creators, Jen, she had the pink hair.
00:53:16:16 - 00:53:32:19
Stacey
She was talking about cults and stuff. She's one of the people I follow. She and her husband are fabulous. His name is James and her name is Jen. They call her the Reverend Jen. She does shows about cults and all this stuff. And she was on that show. I want to say thank you to her. And thank you to all the people that introduced me to this.
00:53:32:24 - 00:53:54:00
Stacey
Thank you to Jill and all the people that are speaking up against LP. And thank you to Amanda from The Cult I left behind because she's really brave to come out and she speaks to people all over the country about this. And this is a very dangerous, dangerous cult religion, quote unquote, which it isn't. And, it's very dangerous.
00:53:54:00 - 00:54:15:01
Stacey
And as I said, as we all said, if you try to get out of it and you tell people they won't necessarily do anything, and if you don't do it immediately, the statute of limitations will run out, and then you don't have a leg to stand on. Sorry, I wanted to make that speech. It's just really this this particular religion is just so it's more hypocritical than most to me.
00:54:15:03 - 00:54:21:00
Dori
They're all the same. They're all, yeah, yeah. It's just that just the childhood.
00:54:21:06 - 00:54:43:05
Dr John
I want to emphasize the word evil. I've said it a couple of times. You know what that to me, these people are just evil. They're the the opposite of what you know, espousing God in Christ and being close. No, they're they're closer to Satan. And if that person. Yes, that. Yes, this, then then goodly or godly, they're they're evil.
00:54:43:07 - 00:54:44:02
Dr John
They're.
00:54:44:04 - 00:54:44:13
Stacey
Yes.
00:54:44:13 - 00:54:49:04
Dori
I do have to say, since I'm also a pale skinned lady,
00:54:49:04 - 00:54:49:16
Dori
00:54:49:16 - 00:54:50:23
Dori
great to know that,
00:54:50:23 - 00:55:07:11
Dori
that Gothard does wear that suit, because now it makes me, even though he is the most evil person in the world, it makes I think it's more acceptable for me to be fully clothed when I go to the beach that summer, which, I think it's kind of opened the door for me.
00:55:07:11 - 00:55:07:19
Dori
It's kind of.
00:55:08:00 - 00:55:09:19
Stacey
Oh, yeah, that shows a new window.
00:55:09:21 - 00:55:10:14
Dr John
I think that's just.
00:55:10:14 - 00:55:11:10
Stacey
Like a parasol.
00:55:11:14 - 00:55:13:06
Dr John
In his book, you know.
00:55:13:08 - 00:55:31:11
Stacey
Chapter 12. No, I mean, you know, people are nude and topless on the sun, aren't they? I'm going to go to the sun in a full suit with the likeness. Go through the sand. Yeah. There's, you know, again, a lot we can say about about this particular cult, but, I really enjoyed having this conversation with you guys
00:55:31:11 - 00:55:57:01
Dr John
Well, I, I want to say the real purpose behind what we're doing here is. Yeah, it's it's hopefully entertaining and fun, but we, the beach people with some messages about what do you do when you're confronted with this or this touches your life in some way or another, or whether it's you or relative? I hope people listen to what we're trying to say about this is what you need to do.
00:55:57:01 - 00:56:07:14
Dr John
And in this episode, speak up. Especially about this sexual abuse and things that are so vile in life. We have to speak up. So thank you guys. Yeah.
00:56:07:14 - 00:56:07:16
Speaker 1
Hard Candy and I.
00:56:07:23 - 00:56:09:09
Stacey/Dori
Thanks so much for listening.
00:56:09:09 - 00:56:16:16
Stacey/Dori
Be sure to join us next time when we'll be diving into another cult or crime. Our theme music is written and performed by Midnight Current.
00:56:16:18 - 00:56:33:08
Stacey/Dori
Check out more of their work on SoundCloud. For more about us and to catch up on every episode of pod Candy, head over to pod Candy podcast.com. You can also find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time!
00:56:33:15 - 00:56:36:14
Stacey
Candy.
00:56:36:16 - 00:56:45:20
Unknown
I.
00:56:45:22 - 00:56:59:10
Unknown
Wish.