Singing to the heart

In this episode of the 'to the heart' podcast, Helen Thorne-Allenson, Andrew McKenna, and Nicola Eggertsen explore the profound impact of singing on the heart and spiritual life. They discuss how singing serves as a means of heart change, the importance of various musical genres in worship, and the role of the Holy Spirit in enhancing our singing experience. The conversation emphasizes the communal aspect of singing, the need for thoughtful leadership in worship, and the balance between emotional engagement and biblical truth. The hosts also address the challenges faced by music directors and the importance of prayer in fostering a vibrant worship culture.

Takeaways:

• Singing is a fundamental aspect of human experience and worship.
• It helps in heart change by embedding biblical truths.
• Singing can be a response to wayward hearts, guiding them back to God.
• Different genres of music serve various emotional and spiritual needs.
• The Holy Spirit actively works through our singing to teach and remind us of God's truths.
• Leading singing should be an act of worship, not a performance.
• Avoiding emotional manipulation is crucial in worship settings.
• Introducing songs thoughtfully can enhance congregational engagement.
• Congregational singing is a communal activity that strengthens the body of Christ.
• Praying for music leaders is essential for a healthy worship culture.

Chapters:

00:00
Introduction to Singing and the Heart

02:32
The Role of Singing in Heart Change

08:46
Singing in Response to Wayward Hearts

13:34
Genres of Music in Worship

19:43
The Holy Spirit's Role in Singing

24:02
Leading Singing to Engage Hearts

30:02
Avoiding Manipulation in Worship

33:47
Introducing Songs Thoughtfully

37:30
Encouraging Congregational Engagement

41:22
Prayers for Music Directors and Congregations

Creators and Guests

Host

Helen Thorne-Allenson

Director of Training and Resources at BCUK

Guest

Andrew McKenna

Director of Communications at BCUK

Guest

Nicola Eggertsen

Training and Resources Officer at BCUK

What is The BCUK Podcast?

Equipping churches for conversation and counsel

Helen (00:08.846):
Welcome to episode four of BCUK's To The Heart podcast series. Today we're going to be looking at the topic of singing to the heart and it's a delight to have Nicola and Andrew with me today. Nicola, Andrew, would you like to introduce yourselves?

Nicola:
Hello, I'm Nicola. I work as a training and resources officer for BCUK and I'm a freelance biblical counsellor and I'm also a singer at church helping to lead the worship on Sunday morning.

Andrew:
Great, and I'm Andrew. Hi, I'm Director of Communications at BCUK. And before I did that role, I was a pastor and music minister for about 15 years and have regularly led music and singing and helped churches grow in that area with various bits of training.

Helen:
I'm Helen, it's lovely to be back with you again. So far in our podcast series, we've been looking at the heart. We've been looking at the heart as a location. It's part of us. We are embodied souls. We are fleshly and we are heart. We've been looking at the heart as a place of relationship. It's where we relate to the Lord. It's where our desires are located. Some of our desires, of course, very Godward, some going in a very different direction.

And we've been looking at the importance of attending to the heart, listening to the heart. Jesus warned us not to be people that do one thing on the outside and feel and think and desire very different things on the inside. He calls us to be people of integrity. And so it's important in churches that together we are people that look at the heart, search our hearts, or ask God to search our hearts as it says in Psalm 139, share our hearts.

Helen (01:55.886):
not just the Gospel, and also speak into each other's hearts if we are to grow and thrive and flourish in the Christian life. And I guess a lot of the time we'll be thinking, well, we need to be rooted in Scripture, we need to be prayerful, and of course those things are absolutely right. But today we're going to be looking at the role of music, the role of singing. And so I suppose it's worth starting with a fairly fundamental question is,

What role can singing play in the process of seeking heart change?

Andrew:
Yeah, it's a great question to start with Helen. I think singing is a wonderful, amazing thing that God has given to humanity. It seems to be common to every culture in humanity and in some way it's reflection of our being made in God's image. He is the author of singing at various points in the Bible. We also talk about God singing over his children and creation groaning to sing and all the rest of it. But I think in and of itself,

singing might not have that superpower to bring about heart change. We don't experience changes of heart and desires just by turning up to church and belting out some songs and hymns. But at the same time, there is a role for singing in bringing about heart change because we've got so many great reasons to sing as Christian believers. And it's those reasons, I think, that

that show us how that change takes place. So for example, Paul writes to the Colossian church encouraging them to let the message of Christ, the gospel, dwell among them richly as they sing together, as they teach and admonish one another through songs. there's a sense in which as we sing, and as we sing particularly together as Christians, we can sing on our own as well. But as we do those things, it's a means God has given us.

Andrew (03:57.87):
to allow the truths of the gospel to dwell in us richly, to take root in our hearts, to grow us into the likeness of Christ in different ways.

Nicola:
Well, so, love hearing what you say there, Andrew, and just to add to that, when we sing God's praises, we do what we were made to do, worship God with our voices as well as our hearts. I read Psalm 71 verses 14 to 15 in my devotional time earlier this week, and in it the psalmist says, But as for me, I will hope continually and praise you more and more. My mouth shall tell of your righteousness and salvation all the day long, for I know no end of the telling.

And that's what the Christian is made for, continual praise of our Maker, and His glory deserves that we know no end of the telling. I just love that little phrase. Singing Christian truth is obedience. It's telling the wonders of our God. And connected to that, I know you've talked in previous podcasts about Matthew 6, but in singing we look to God and we sing true things about Him. We orient our spiritual eyes to Him, they to speak.

Our heart is changed as we tutor it in the truth. I read this lovely article by Carl Hood, who's the director of BC Australia. He's writing his doctorate thesis on Psalms and Trauma. In his paper for the JBC called The Benefits of Singing, he argues that singing the Psalms actually makes people feel better. He talks about there being a physiological component, the breathing patterns that we need to use when we sing do actually bring anxiety down.

the same way that secular counselors might use grounding techniques. And also the spiritual component, I liked what you said, Andrew, about singing not just being sort of a supercharged thing in and of itself, it's actually the spiritual component that we're singing things about God to God. And there is a sort of something spiritual more than just the act of blasting words out through our windpipes, but singing the Psalms reframes our problems with biblical wisdom.

Nicola (06:02.798):
and who'd references a recent study on the benefits of singing. And apparently part of our brain responds to singing, not just to instrumental music or speech. And he says that we were made to sing, so that when we do, we are blessed. Singing is God's inbuilt mechanism to bless us and change our hearts. I love that.

Andrew:
Yeah, I love that perspective of actually, it does us good as human beings to sing just for all those benefits, but it almost does us doubly good as Christian believers to sing because we're experiencing all those benefits of the actual act of singing, but actually as well, we are experiencing the spiritual benefits in our hearts of singing the truth to our own hearts and to one another. So yeah, great perspectives.

Helen:
Presumably because we're singing into eternity. We know that actually singing is part of how we are meant to be. Singing is not something that we do because we are a fallen people. Singing is part of our design and we can look forward to an absolute eternity of singing. And for those of us who aren't very in tune at the moment, presumably singing that will be maybe a little bit more on key along the way, although we might have to.

I hope that one liked me.

Andrew:
think that's really helpful because we get that perspective in the Bible that we were made to sing yes, but so often we struggle with singing because we struggle with lots of aspects of being human and relating to God because of the fall and because of our sin. But there is a trajectory that if you read them through Isaiah particularly and note down how many times he says in that day and then how many of those times he mentions God's people will sing.

Andrew (07:49.858):
there is quite remarkable and a great hope to look forward to.

Helen:
Well, let's look a little bit at some specific ways that singing can help us in that heart change. well, certainly for me, when I think about singing, the thing that comes easiest is singing God's praises. Obviously, there are days when I don't want to sing God's praises, but generally speaking, a nice upbeat song belting out praises to the Lord, reminding myself of His goodness and His care. mean, that is just a joy.

But as we look in Scripture, that's not the only kind of song that we see there. We also see songs that will help us come back to the Lord when our hearts have gone astray. And I'm just wondering, what is helpful about singing when we are responding to God from a wayward heart?

Nicola:
I think music and singing is particularly important when our hearts are going astray, whether that's in suffering or in sin, because sometimes we don't feel full of praise to God, and sometimes we feel that God's character is at odds with our circumstances. It never is, but we do sometimes feel that. And singing, like saying words of liturgy, gives us words of truth to orient and coach our hearts. And however we're feeling, whether we're flailing in the faith or full of confident joy, saying

I believe in God the Father or another creed at church on a Sunday is so important because in doing so, we commit ourselves to the truth of the gospel alongside brothers and sisters and the Lord. And singing the gospel through songs and hymns and psalms, does the same thing. We remind ourselves and each other in the words that we sing that our allegiance is to Christ. One Old Testament scholar points out that the reference to a new song in the psalms almost always comes in the context of warfare.

Nicola (09:38.946):
He writes that a new song gives him a victory, and our singing has this political quality. We sing because we believe that Jesus is our conquering King. And when we sing out on a Sunday morning, we express that we belong to Him and that He has won the victory over death and sin. I love that. Our church is right in the middle of town, and I love the thought that we are singing victory songs for the town to hear on a Sunday morning.

Andrew:
Yeah, that's great, Nicola. And I think as well, just if you sort of look around your congregation on an average Sunday, as I sometimes do and have the provision of leading up the front, leading singing, it's very interesting. Just you can get a bit of an indicator as to how people are doing both corporately and maybe individually as well, just by how the singing's going and how they are singing and things like that.

There's all sorts of factors in that. Have you chosen the right songs to be on very low notes, that tune too high, all the rest of it. But actually sometimes somebody's involvement and commitment to singing can be a bit of a barometer on their heart and how they're doing with the Lord or with others and how easy they're finding it to express words of praise in song.

I think it's a useful indicator as to what's going on in our heart. But also, as Nicola said, it's got the power to shape our hearts, to direct our hearts as well because of these wonderful things that singing does. Singing helps us learn truth. It makes words more memorable to our brains. We connect them with a tune and therefore we find it easier to

remember the words of a song, then we do the words of a Bible passage, for example. And wonderfully, some people say one to the other and we remember God's word. But as we've said as well earlier, we've got that sort of whole body involvement in singing. There's a tune, there's words, perhaps our brains are more focused because of those things. Singing engages our hearts, our emotions as well are affected.

Andrew (11:52.108):
hopefully in the right and appropriate ways by what we're singing. And it's also just a very personal, physical thing to sing, to open our mouths and to join with a song. So yeah, all of those things are useful in terms of when we spot things going astray and how we can help each other in our hearts and our worship.

Helen:
corporate aspect is really important, isn't it? Because sometimes when my heart is going astray, I find it quite difficult to articulate things by myself. But when we're articulating it together, all of us in this together, all of us, our hearts going astray, all of us coming back to the Lord, somehow that being in it together makes it a little bit easier. Well, Angie, you said as you were looking out some Sunday mornings and you see a whole range of responses in the congregation.

That draws our attention to the fact that presumably we need a whole range of genres of music and singing if we are to sing widely and roundly to the Lord. We've mentioned praise, we've mentioned coming back to the Lord when our hearts are wayward, but one of the kinds of genre of music can be helpful.

Andrew:
Yeah, thanks, Helen. There are many, and I think, again, Scripture can be our guide in these things. We do read songs and psalms of praise. We see songs of thankfulness to God. We see songs, particularly as we arrive in the New Testament, that seem to be both praise but also expressing truth about the Lord Jesus in that kind of way that teaches us and helps us remember those things. But we also see

Songs of confession in the Psalms, we see lots of songs of lament, particularly earlier on in the collection of Psalms and the way those progress. But there seems to be a space for each of those and each of them have a role to play in the gathering of God's people, in the worship of their hearts and in what they do together. Yeah, I think it's

Andrew (14:09.216):
It's good to just acknowledge that and think, okay, well, we might be good at singing these type of songs, but we struggle more for those. And often that's because maybe they're underserved in different ways and we struggle with resources for them. But I think that the main encouragement to try and sing songs about the hard times in church and sing songs of lament of crying out to God.

are because it's there in God's Word, but also we experience those things in our hearts. We are living between Jesus' first coming and His return. We are living as those victorious people that we've been thinking about, but yet struggling with this groaning creation with our creaking bodies, the battle against our sin and our flesh, the weakness, the suffering we endure.

some days the last thing we want to do is turn up and sing a song that maybe doesn't explicitly say, but makes it feel like the Christian life is always happy and victorious. And so there's great opportunities to curate, to seek out, to even write songs that have that kind of lament, that longing, so that when we come to church and things aren't okay,

Our hearts are being given appropriate voice to that as we pray, we maybe say words of liturgy, but as we sing as well, as we've talked about the benefits of singing, it would be great if we can express some of those cries in our soul too.

Nicola:
I love what you mentioned about the book of Psalms, and it giving us a whole range of genres and styles to sing. It was Israel's songbook and it was designed to be sung communally. I think the only thing we really need in terms of song worship is to sing together. You mentioned about sometimes singing things that we don't feel and there being something healthy and good about that and sometimes joining in to sing with someone else's sorrows, a helpful thing, along with singing with someone else's joy.

Nicola (16:20.302):
I think I would push back a bit against someone saying that they need to sing contemporary worship songs, or they need to sing old hymns with the organ, or they need to sing just a certain style of music in order to worship God, because we have been given this songbook from God that covers a whole scope of human experience, and He hasn't actually given us the tunes, and I think He would have communicated them if He really wanted us to have them.

But I love that, you know, what the human heart needs is to be oriented back to its maker. There's this lovely book called What Happens When We Worship by Jonathan Landry-Cruz, and he says about singing, God calls us into an activity that will complete our joy. And so all gospel singing, whether it suits our style or our mood or genre, is good for our hearts. And I know you mentioned singing songs of lament, but I just find it interesting that a third of the Psalms, the Psalms of lament,

And so, we do need more people writing songs in the minor keys, songs of lament. Yeah, in the last year at church, we started singing a psalm every Sunday to try and tune into God's work. It's been so good and so, you know, felt, occasionally it feels strange to sing these words, but I know that the actual, the issues are really more to do with my own heart than to do with anything I'm singing.

Andrew:
And that's so helpful because actually that perspective that comes into church and says, I'm here to get something out of the singing and the music and therefore I know what styles and types are going to serve me best today. even, you know, what type of song biblically is going to serve me best, is not always going to be helpful. And actually if we can encourage folk to have that,

corporate mindset, as you said, Helen, and a view of serving others with us singing, then there is great benefit. So, you you might arrive at one of your Psalms each week, Nicola, and it is a Psalm of lament, and some folk in church might be thinking, why are we singing this? This isn't my experience. But it may well be the experience of a brother or sister, a few rows in front or a few rows back. And what a great encouragement to join with them to express those truths that

Andrew (18:38.09):
might be more storing up for ourselves in our own hearts for another day, but are really applicable in what somebody else needs to hear today. So yeah, thank you.

Helen:
I'd love to dig a little bit deeper into what's going on as we sing. We've talked a bit about the physiological and I think that is important to remember because often that slips our mind as we think about singing. We've talked about the reminders, the refocusing on truths about God and that lovely community aspect that is so important. But of course, the Holy Spirit is at work when we're singing and it's probably worth teasing out actually what He is doing.

as we sing.

Nicola:
Yeah, I think it's interesting. We've talked a bit today about how singing is a spiritual activity. It's something that God has built into us as human beings that images Him and that God is singing over His people, that we will be singing in eternity. And so, the Holy Spirit is clearly at work and involved when we're singing. John 14, 26 comes to mind for me, but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I've said to you.

So presumably the Holy Spirit is actively teaching us and reminding us of Jesus, His words and His ways as we sing. This is a bit of a tangent, but a lot of old hymns have a Trinitarian structure. think of Wesley's God our Father, we adore thee. You there are lots of old hymns and we sing quite a lot of old. We sing, you know, at least two or three organ hymns, old hymns each Sunday. And I've just been really struck that we sing Trinitarian hymns.

Nicola (20:17.526):
sing to God the Father, Son and Spirit on a Sunday and it's been teaching me.

Andrew:
Yeah, very helpful. I think some of those older hymns, they touch on our hearts actually in more ways than perhaps we see sometimes. Maybe we see more songs written today that express the positive inclinations of our hearts towards God. But some of the older ones are great to dig out. was thinking this morning of John Newton's hymn.

how sweet the name of Jesus sounds where he writes, weak is the effort of my heart and cold my warmest thought, but I see you as you are, I'll praise you as I ought. And that sense in which God's Spirit is at work as we come and sing truths of praise to Him and to one another, but really only because they are truths of the gospel and our hearts are engaged and we are speaking these things to

to our own hearts and to one another. And that very process has that, to quote another old hymn, who's at the road, tune my heart to sing your praise, that come now fountain, it, Rogginson. That kind of effect of, yes, the gospel, the truths of Christ are being applied by God's Spirit.

to each of our hearts in rich ways as we sing. And it's a sign is that the parallel passage in Ephesians talks about being filled with this, an alternative to being filled with things. And a sign of that being that we do speak to one another with songs and songs of the spirit and indeed making melody in our hearts. So there's a sort of a sense of which we are quite literally tuning our hearts like we would tune a car engine.

Andrew (22:15.822):
to appreciate, to delight in the truths about God and who He is, Father, Son, and Spirit, the Christ who is our Redeemer and King, rejoicing in the blessings that He's given us as His people. So yeah, I think God's Spirit is at work, as He is in other ways, through His Word, as we hear that proclaimed, as we say it to one another, as we read God's Word.

but also as we sing to one another the message of Christ. And because of all the reasons we mentioned above, that singing benefits from all of those and gives us a rich heart experience, I think, and God is at work through those things.

Helen:
I'm getting more more excited about singing. I think more is tempted to breaking song, but I promise you I won't, although I would not be identifying for anybody right now. But I certainly am thinking very differently and more excitedly about singing. Let's turn to some practicalities. Not everyone listening to this podcast will be involved in leading singing, but some will. So let's maybe think about how we can lead singing in a way that helps people engage their hearts.

What would that look like?

Andrew:
Well, I can think of some just very basic practical things to start with and then Nicola do chip in. But actually some basics are that to engage our hearts in singing, we need a sort of certain level of basic engagement. So we need to do things like being able to see the words that we're singing. So that has an effect on how much of them you put on the screen or how you use your hymn books and things, make sure people can see.

Andrew (24:02.134):
It'd be wonderful if the whole congregation could hear their own voices sing as well so that they have that experience of being personally fully engaged in singing. So that has application to how loud we turn those leading music and singing up at the front and how we balance that sound. And we are wonderfully grateful for tech teams and sound teams that do that and we should pray for them. And also that we encourage people to

to consider those around them. So it's not just me and my engagement of my heart before God. Yes, we do want to do that, but we also want to have an eye on serving others as we sing to help one another's hearts to awaken to these truths. So yeah, I would encourage some of those practical steps just so it's possible for our hearts to be fully engaged and encourage folks to consider

a sort of attitude of service in their singing. So they're always looking outwards so that yes, as they are blessed, as they sing these truths, they're also singing them for the benefit of others too.

Nicola:
I think it's also important that leading music in church is an act of worship for those involved. It's not a performance, so it is different to go into a concert like you say, and the sound levels have a part to play in that. We've been thinking at our church about creative ways to engage with the whole scope of preference within our congregation. And we have an artist at church who's painted three images based on the Psalms. And as we have been singing a psalm each Sunday,

we are going to have a chance to reflect on her image first. And so she's going to share her image with us and then we'll sing a psalm together. So just as a way of being a bit more reflective in our singing. And once a year we have a Songs of Fellowship evening and we intersperse singing with testimonies. So people will bring a favourite hymn or song, we all sing it and they share why it's important to them. And so I think that's another way that you could engage the heart in singing.

Helen (26:10.83):
think how you set up singing is so important, isn't it? It's very easy. We'll sing a song while the children are going to their groups. Sometimes that happens, but it's not necessarily the best environment to focus you on what those words really are. Or we're singing a song, but you're getting your stuff organized for what the reading's going to be. It's so easy to get distracted.

And I always really value it when the person at the front is saying, let's just take a moment. Let's look at some of the words. Let's reflect on some of the big themes. Now you don't want to do that with every song because the service will get very long if you do that. But just occasionally picking out a phrase, a sentence, even a word, maybe one of those obscure words, like an old hymn that's got Ebenezer thrown in and you sit there and think, what on earth is that? And then you reflect on what that is.

Sometimes when you then come to sing it, there's a sense of, yeah, I kind of get this now. This isn't just something we're doing to fill time or to stand up a bit and have a stretch. This is really fitting with the wider service. This is really speaking in exciting ways.

Andrew:
Yeah, and really engaging my heart as an individual believer as well. like you say, yeah, it's so helpful to do that. I found the same where somebody was tracing, we were singing that lovely old hymn, Immortal Honors Rest on Jesus' Head. Somebody did just what you described there, Helen, that they picked out a line which says about Jesus, his beauty's trace.

His Majesty adore. And what does that mean? We gloss over that line, but actually to be able to think, have someone say a few lines before, say, well, you know, this is encouraging us to seek out the beauty of Jesus in life, in our experience, in what He said to us in His word, how we relate to Him. And that just brought that song alive for me on that day and helped me engage my heart in what we were singing.

Helen (28:19.886):
Well, there are many ways that singing can enliven our hearts, encourage us. And I guess that's one of the reasons for anyone listening who's done dynamics of biblical change that David Powison, he does the lectures there, spends the first part of every lecture going through a hymn and drawing out wonderful words that help us see Jesus more clearly.

Andrew:
I think we should do that with every lecture.

Helen:
I'll bear that in mind as we put the new ones together. But there are dangers as well, aren't there? mean, music is quite an emotional or can be quite an emotional experience. And what we don't want to do is use the singing, the times of music together to try and promote emotionalism or manipulation. That wouldn't be helpful. How can we avoid

manipulating hearts in the course of singing.

Nicola:
think nothing we do in church should be manipulative. God woos the church throughout history, extending cords of kindness and bands of love, like it says in Hosea. And He doesn't pressure the church, so we shouldn't either. But I think probably emotionalism isn't really the biggest problem in my own context, or the context of those that I meet with in my soul care practice. More likely, our emotions are too weak in love towards God.

Nicola (29:43.694):
I heard a great sermon at my church on Sunday from Revelation 2, and the church in Ephesus are commended for their deeds, for their hard work, for their orthodoxy, but they've forsaken their first love. And I wonder if Jesus deserves a bit more emotion from me, and that I might do well to express that in song from time to time.

Andrew:
Yeah, we can be so afraid of emotion in certain circles because we have seen the dangers of manipulation or emotionalism in different places. But yeah, I think God has made us just like He's given us singing in creation. He's made us with emotions and He desires to be loved by us with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. And I think there's a great opportunity to express that.

in singing. There are sort of dangers, bit like walking along a sort of very narrow cliff that we don't want to fall off in either direction. I think it's what we don't want on the one hand is just emotion for emotion's sake that has no root or anchor in the truth of what God's Word is saying and what we're reflecting on.

But on the other hand, you say, Nicola, we don't want to sort of be unmoved. I heard a preacher say once that we want to be moved by truth, but we want to be moved by truth as well and having that kind of tension that we want to be holding onto. And so if that's the case, then how do we avoid emotionalism or manipulation? Well, as we've seen in the Psalms, they are full of the gamut.

human emotion. So let's allow as much as we can God's Word to direct what we sing and how we feel about those things. And it's okay to be expressing emotion in song or in other aspects of the service as we pray, as we hear testimony, as we hear God's Word itself proclaimed. ideally, and a great responsibility of those who write songs and lead songs, ideally we want the

Andrew (31:57.538):
the emotions that are being expressed, they appropriate be flowing from the truth of God's Word. That's hard. We are weak, we are feeble, we lean in certain directions more than others depending on our experience and our background. But it's an opportunity to grow. think emotion is an area we can grow and develop in and become more Christ-like. And I think as we've been saying, there's ways we can do that.

Helen:
get really practical then. Let's think about how we would introduce a song in church that doesn't either squash emotions nor goes to emotionalism, but genuinely encourages a congregation to engage their hearts in singing. What would that actually look like? Maybe let's think about a song of lament. How might you introduce that to a congregation?

Andrew:
Well, think as following on from what we've just talked about, I think I would be wanting to introduce it with a little bit of scripture, be that the main passage of the day, or if it's not, then perhaps a psalm of lament that picks up on that. Just partly to do what we've been saying in that to show people that these things are in God's Word, that it is okay to

sing songs like this. In fact, it's encouraged and there are reasons for that. So yeah, so I might read perhaps a Psalm of lament or Psalm 13, for example, how long, O Lord, if we were introducing a song based on that Psalm or another song of lament. And then maybe a few lines about why we'd sing a song like that.

Yes, God's Word invites us to sing when life is good and to sing songs of praise when we are happy, as it says in James, and there's much to rejoice and give thanks about. But also when life is hard, when there is sorrow and weeping and when we feel downcast for whatever reason, maybe even when we have lost our sight of who God is and how he could possibly be at work.

Andrew (34:14.152):
in our lives this week, given everything that's happened. And then I'd want to add something about, as we said earlier, that might not be your experience today, but it may well be your experience and for the benefit of all of us, we're going to sing this particular song now. If the words are hard to sing, that's okay. But maybe if that is for you, listen to the first verse and then see if you feel like joining in.

after. Either way, we're all going to sing as we're able to bless one another with these words. And they express a cry to God, a cry that's modeled for us in God's Word. So, words along those lines, I think I'd probably use.

Nicola
Yeah, I agree with Andrew. think reducing pressure by saying, you might like to sing this as a prayer, or you can listen in this time if you want, offering silence and to give people time to pray and bring personal laments to God. Sometimes people come into church so full of the thing that has happened that week or that they are suffering with, and just to give people space to bring those things to the Lord so that they can then join in and engage.

with what God is saying through His Word, I think could be really helpful too.

Andrew:
Actually, although we want the vast majority of our singing diet in church to be corporate, to be congregational, there can be a place for maybe a more solo or sung element that particularly helps this area of singing songs of lament where perhaps it's maybe less familiar for a congregation or a song itself is newer because we're trying to get new songs of lament out there.

Andrew (36:00.314):
And it's harder for people to grasp straight away. But yeah, it can be an opportunity for someone gifted in the congregation to sing a song and for others to be encouraged to reflect on the words and how they speak to their own current state of heart and their own current experiences with the Lord and in life.

Helen:
So helpful, thank you. And what about congregation members? How can we encourage one another to come to church, desiring to engage our heart with what we're about to see?

Nicola:
think that we need to grow in learning why we sing. It's not just an individualistic activity that meets individualistic needs. It's a corporate thing. It's political. It's for our communal strengthening. I've been convicted that I can train up and educate my children in encouraging them to sing in church. It's something that we want them to participate in as members of the body of Christ and something that will bring them joy. So we practice at home. We listen to songs.

in our family worship time together. We sing them. I encourage them to open their mouths and sing properly. They don't sing at school anymore in the same way that I did when I was growing up. And so, I try and help them to breathe when they're singing. Sometimes we'll use a song to reflect on truths about God during family worship, particularly at points when we're struggling with something as a family or one child is struggling with something, we'll listen to a song.

and we'll listen to it sometimes three or four times over breakfast. Then I'll say, pick a favorite line, share what it means to them. I hope this acts as a coaching for them in congregational singing that they learn to sing at home too.

Andrew (37:47.084):
Yeah, so helpful, Nicola, I like that. And it's so hard, particularly that sort of transition between the rest of life and the start of a service on a Sunday that is so tricky to get right. And we feel that, yeah, it's very hard to sort of be in a place where we were ready to sing in those times. So I think encouraging folks who lead services to really think hard about how.

we can start those services with God's word, letting God speak and invite us and call us to praise him would be great too. But yeah, lots of practical things you can do in the wonderful technologies we have these days. It's easy if you're organized to send folks out playlists or things of songs you'll be singing on Sunday, particularly if they're going to be new to your congregation and you'd love people to.

to learn them and think and reflect on them, or proactively if they're going to be helpful. Maybe you're not necessarily seeing them on a Sunday, but it can be more of a testimony that you share with somebody else in the church where you can say, this part of my story that I'm sharing here, the words of this song were so helpful to me. And let me share those with you. don't, you have a listen as well and be blessed by that. It's so tricky sometimes as people who lead music to

be confident enough to talk to the congregation about singing and to sort of ask them, well, how did you find the song this morning? sort of feel like we should be wearing a suit of armor at that point. But God has our hearts and it's a great opportunity to sort of try and get conversations a bit deeper, like we would with talking about how we're doing with the Lord, but maybe talk about songs in that way too. So, you know, how did you

find that new song this morning and try and get beyond the, it was a bit too high for me or not quite the style I'm used to. But to the words of, well, was there any aspect of truth about Christ that it brought into a new life for you or helped you appreciate or were there any things that you'd like to take forward this week? And just kind of have those conversations about singing so you over time grow a culture that people are engaged and expect.

Andrew (40:09.101):
of their times of singing is also helpful.

Helen:
Wonderful. Last question. What can we be praying for ourselves, for our congregations, for our music directors in this area of engaging the heart as missing?

Andrew:
Shall I share one? So I think there is so much pressure on music directors from various ways. There is the pressure of just your own circumstances. There's the pressure of church life. There's the pressure of tradition. There's the pressure of new songs being written. There's the pressure of kind of people's desires of what we should be singing and all that. And I think a great thing we can pray for is that amidst all that, music directors would

would lovingly serve their congregations well and work in good harmony with their church leaders and pastors to really see the benefits of singing as God's people, to be confident in what God's Word says, to be willing to not be beholden to these other voices, but to have a great, long view of singing as we've been made in God's image and redeemed by Him to

to glorify him in this way.

Nicola (41:27.246):
I've just been recently convicted that music directors are ministry leaders and there can be a temptation to chop and change what we offer in terms of music at church because someone liked this or they didn't like that. I thought your description of talking and spitting on your seat of armour before you ask people what they liked was very apt. But music directors and music ministers, and so they need to prayerfully seek what the Lord is calling them to bring to their congregations to minister to their souls.

It is impossible to please everyone, but that isn't our goal. It's not the goal of any minister in church. The goal is to lead the congregation in worship of God, and God inevitably confronts us with His Word. So perhaps the music we sing might also do some of that confronting. So I would like to pray for those leading the ministry of music at church not to lose heart. They're leading people into an activity that brings joy, that people were made for.

and that people will be doing eternally around Jesus' throne, so don't lose heart.

Helen:
Wonderful. Thank you both so much for your time, for your wisdom, for your evident joy of singing to the Lord on the good days and the hard. I don't need to pick. Andrew, would you pray for us and pray for our music at church?

Andrew:
Father, thank you so much for creating us to sing. Lord, we are so weak as it, we feel the pressures to not sing your praise, to not tune our hearts to these things. We are sinful, we need your forgiveness. Thank you for the gift of the new heart that you bless us with. Thank you for Jesus who leads us in singing, who leads us in the victory that he has won.

Andrew (43:13.518)
who walks with us as we sing songs of lament, who helps us to serve one another in song. Lord, thank you for the power of your spirit at work in each of your children. And we pray for those who lead us in music and singing around our churches, around the land, that you would bless and encourage them. Lord, may they keep their eyes on you. May they be faithful ministers of

your words to their people. Lord, may all our congregations grow in their appreciation and service through singing. And we pray in Jesus' Amen.

Andrew (43:59.694)
To Seek the Heart is a podcast by Biblical Counselling UK. It is presented by Helen Thorne Allenson and produced by me, Andrew McKenna. To listen, subscribe and share with others, search for the BCUK podcast or visit bcuk.org forward slash podcast. Biblical Counselling UK exists to equip churches for conversation and counsel. Discover more at bcuk.org.