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Welcome to the Men of Faith podcast where we’re dedicated to calling men up, not out, to live a life dedicated to our God.
This is more than just a podcast, it’s a community and a brotherhood. In each episode, we'll explore topics that touch the core of our spiritual and daily lives—from the sacred bonds of marriage and the joys and trials of parenthood, to practical advice on health, fitness, and managing our finances wisely.
Our journey begins now and we want you with us, so please subscribe on your favorite listening platform.
Resources:
Learn more about Project Church: https://projectchurch.com/
Connect with Project Church on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/projectchurchsac
Caleb Cole [00:00:00]:
Can God help us? Yes. His holy spirit? Yes. Through his word? Yes. We need all of that. But ultimately, I've seen he works through his body. As you said, he works through people. And we weren't meant to do the faith journey alone. And so the antithesis of what is natural for us, which is that I got this man up, rub some dirt on it.
Caleb Cole [00:00:21]:
I'm going to just do it in my strength, my way. I'll figure it out. I'll physically force all this to go away. I don't see it work. I've tried it. You're listening to Men of Faith, the podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out. Join me as we live a life dedicated to our God. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Men of Faith podcast.
Caleb Cole [00:00:55]:
I'm your host, Caleb Cole, and I'm here with my co host, Brandon Miller is in the building.
Brandon Miller [00:01:04]:
Hello. Hello, Men of Faith. Men of Faith. They've been tuning in, Caleb. We've been on a journey with them thus far.
Caleb Cole [00:01:11]:
Yes. If you are new here, we're so glad you've joined us. We are actually posting podcasts every other week. So every other Friday you're going to get a podcast dropped from us on the Men of Faith, where we're hitting a variety of topics. Here at Men of Faith. We are helping men and seeing men rise to become all that they were made to and God created them to be. And so we're really all about the call up, not the call out. And me and Brandon have been having fun being a part of this together and then sharing this with all of you out there.
Caleb Cole [00:01:45]:
So thanks so much. We're a few weeks in and loving it, getting a lot of great feedback from everybody.
Brandon Miller [00:01:51]:
I want to just shout out to everybody who might have put the opening verse on their phone. So anyone seeing this on video, be on guard. Stand firm in the faith. Be courageous. Be strong. Do everything in love. There it is. It's one of my rotating pictures on the phone and just a way to remind us.
Brandon Miller [00:02:09]:
Yep, season one. Let's do that. So if you don't have that version there, first corinthians 1613, here's your reminder call up there.
Caleb Cole [00:02:19]:
Yeah, it's been really cool. I've actually had a few guys show me their phones. It is their screen saver, so it's the first thing they see, you know, when they unlock their phone. And that was really cool to me when I had guys going, hey, check it out, that they had accepted that call up and followed through on it.
Brandon Miller [00:02:35]:
So if you know? You know, so if you're around project and you got it on the face of the phone, give Caleb the shot of it, show them that you got it. Cause that's. That's one of those. That, uh, Men of Faith. We're digging into that verse over the course of the season.
Caleb Cole [00:02:49]:
This episode is a topic that I'm excited to talk about with Brandon. We. We've touched on it a little bit. Just the idea. Obviously, this is a lot about being men and a brotherhood of men. But I really wanted to dig into the idea of what connection looks like with other men of God. I think that in my experience, a lot of the men in my life, they actually connect more so, and even maybe better with men who don't believe the same things they believe. They spend more time and connect on a deeper level with men who don't share the same faith.
Caleb Cole [00:03:25]:
Convictions. Faith in God, convictions of what morality looks like. And I think that presents a challenge to us. My son gave me a quote the other day, and he said, if friends were money, I'd rather have four quarters than 100 pennies. This is my ten year old son. I'm like, that's a word, my brother. The idea that we do have a lot of connections and people in our life, but it's about quality, not quantity. And I think you and I have experienced that, Brandon.
Caleb Cole [00:03:56]:
And so what I really want to talk about is, like, what does it look like to connect with other men of goddess? Why is it so hard for us as men of God to connect on a deeper level, you know, speaking of vulnerability, authenticity, accountability, and just deeper relationships in general? Because I think it is difficult. I think in today's day and age, we find it very difficult. I don't know if in all of human history it has been. I actually probably don't think so as much, but more so now, where it looks like we're more connected than ever and yet we're more alone than ever. Let's talk about it, man. I know it's. It's hard for me at times, the authenticity, the connecting with other men, and it's something I'm trying to do better at.
Brandon Miller [00:04:35]:
Yeah, you've been sharing lately. I've heard a couple times different settings, whether it's the times where we get the brotherhood together, I think on different settings at church, you know, where you've gone into this path you've been on, where it feels like, you know, some things that God has asked you to do as it relates to other guys and your own journey of vulnerability. And, hey, what can I share? How can I share it? And I'm wondering if we just kick it off with maybe a little bit of how this has been a part of your journey. Cause you. You've had connections, and maybe in the course of time, God's been asking you to take those deeper. It sounds like.
Caleb Cole [00:05:09]:
I think I've always been a leader of people. You know, I remember being a kid and one of my friends’ moms telling me, like, Caleb, you're such a leader. And then everyone my whole life telling me, you're such a leader. And I'm like, I never felt like a leader. And it was funny. I was actually in college and one of my friend's moms brought up this video of us. We were making a video book report when we were in fourth grade, and it was me, her son, and two other boys in fourth grade. And she had the camera running.
Caleb Cole [00:05:42]:
And behind the scenes, beyond just the book report we presented was me directing everyone what to do. I don't remember this, but the video, she's like, caleb watches. And I'm like, okay, you're. Then you're going to go here and you're going to pop out of the cupboard, and we're actually doing on the Indian in the cupboard. But I tell that story to say, like, I've always been a leader of people, even going back to fourth grade, even when I didn't know I was a leader of men. And yet it's so easy to be a leader and yet not exude any vulnerability to tell people, this is what you should do, this is how you should be, and yet never share your own weaknesses or struggles. And so this last year plus now has been a year of me really learning to allow people closer. And a big part of it was like, when you keep people at arm's length, you're protected, right? No one can ever hurt you.
Caleb Cole [00:06:36]:
No one could ever stab you in the back. But what I also realized is the lies. I had partnered with that as a leader, you have to be alone. People are alongside of you, but they're more subservient to me. My mentality. I don't think it was pride. I just think it was a fear of letting people close enough where they could betray me or hurt me or talk bad about me. And so if they only see me from a distance as having it all together, then I'm safe.
Caleb Cole [00:07:03]:
And so that was a lie I had partnered with since I was young. And this year has been a year of me undoing that and saying, hey, I need to, to actually renounce that lie, that it's safer and better alone, and it's safer and better when people don't really know you and you keep them at arm's length. When you let people close, it can get messy, and you could get hurt. But it also is the only way that you can grow stronger, which is how God intended it and how the faith journey was meant to be done, which is in community. He made us for community he thought wasn't good for Adam to be alone. And so that always says carried over to my marriage. But, like, speaking of men, I think this is the most honest, vulnerable, real, authentic place I've been in and living with other men who I've invited closer. I invited a spiritual father into my life, which I'd never done.
Caleb Cole [00:07:55]:
I have a. I have an earthly father who also is a man of God mentor in my life. But I felt like God was leading me to bring another spiritual father into my life, and in that has been so much growth because he challenged me in a way that even my earthly father probably wasn't challenging me. And he would talk to me in a way that maybe other men wouldn't talk to me. And he comes to our church and he always says, like, hey, when I'm at our church, like, you are my spiritual authority. But in our fathering relationship, he has permission to speak. No encumbered honesty. Like, you can speak what you see and call out what is maybe unhealthy.
Caleb Cole [00:08:35]:
And that was uncomfortable for me at first, and it's been a journey, but it's actually now carried over to other relationships where I'm letting other men closer and being honest with them. But then also what that's done is it's enabled them to then be authentic and honest with me because authenticity breeds authenticity.
Brandon Miller [00:08:56]:
You know, as we're listening to this and I'm hearing the two spaces that are emerging. So, one, you're describing the mentor. You're describing, you know, someone who's ahead, someone who now you can look to, who could act as that father in the faith figure, give you advice, give you counsel. And I'm wondering, as I'm hearing you, because I, too, in my faith journey, have had different people represent that for me, and they've been really important because this was a source that I could go to with number one, absolute trust in the confidentiality, in the sincerity, in the genuine interest, and that the advice was always given with an open hand. It was always given in this space of, here's what I see. Here's where you could take this. And I knew that if I said, I need some support with prayer, I need some help with this, that was done. That was real, that was there.
Brandon Miller [00:09:53]:
Hey, you need me, I'm here for you. And maybe like you, you know, in your role as a spiritual leader, not only something that I need, but even want to provide. Right. Want to be on both sides of that coin, because it doesn't matter where you are at today in your spiritual journey, there's probably someone further. And in that case, those are really powerful relations. They're catalytic. They can move you through some strongholds in your life. They can move you through some recurring sin, solved problems, direction.
Brandon Miller [00:10:24]:
Hey, do I take this career thinking about moving my family, you know, going through marriage complications like, these are so rich and so important and so practically, you know, what does that look like? Is that like regular meetings you have? Is that just check ins? What does that look like for you in terms of that connection?
Caleb Cole [00:10:42]:
Yeah, I found without consistency, there's usually very little effectiveness. And so we implemented an every other Tuesday meeting for 1 hour. Sometimes it goes an hour and a half, you know, depending. And in that meeting, we're actually doing real work. We're working on me. Areas of growth that I want to pursue. Some of it, I'm driving. A lot of it, actually.
Caleb Cole [00:11:06]:
I'm driving. And yet he's speaking into it. And then some of it, he's driving. Right? He's bringing things into me, and then it's. It is interesting that in that journey now, I have started to step into that role in other men's life. And you don't have to call it a spiritual father. Some people are uncomfortable with that phrasing or that terminology, whether it be mentored, whatever you want to say. Obviously, we're disciples of Christ first, but there's mentors in our life.
Caleb Cole [00:11:30]:
There's accountability, people in our lives. And sometimes, like you said, there are people further along in the journey than we are. I would say that sometimes they're not even that much further, or maybe they're on the same level as us, but it's just the consistent accountability that we need. And I would encourage you to find someone that maybe is further along in some areas or aspects. And that's the other piece is I think I found within, like, the idea of spiritual fathering or mentoring, that often we're looking for someone to be our end all, be all. Like, I need a mentor, spiritual father that could tell me about health, finances, spiritual life, marriage, fatherhood. There is no person, at least in my experience, that could do all of that. And so even his role in my life, it obviously touches a lot of those things, but I don't see him as my end all, be all.
Caleb Cole [00:12:25]:
Him and I are doing harder work in my emotional health and in my spiritual health. Like, those are the areas that we're really leaning into right now. I do have someone else for me in physical health. I have someone else for me in financial health and wisdom. I think there's this misconception even as we talk about, like, okay, I gotta find my guy. My end all, be all, no, no, no. You need to find probably mentors, plural, because we need different people in different parts of our lives.
Brandon Miller [00:12:55]:
I think what you said in terms of some are gonna be ahead, some are gonna be with us, some might not even be where we're at in our spiritual development. And yet there's an area where they do shine, where they do have something that could be really beneficial. And what I'm hearing, and this has been my experience as well, is the more that you open yourself up to where God wants to bring sources of new nourishment, new life, new light, new revelation. When you're open to God bringing that in, sources of people that you have alignment with in your faith, it'll come. It'll come in strange forms. It's going to come in ways that you didn't even expect. And the openness to, well, what could that look like and what shape could that take? Can be really important in the area of marriage. It is encouraging to hear other people talk about how they overcame certain challenges in marriage.
Brandon Miller [00:13:50]:
It is encouraging to hear, this is what it's like with teenage kids in the midst of your marriage or after, you know, the kids leave. This is what it's like. My wife and I are getting nearer to empty nest life, and we're starting to talk about it and what's life going to be like and how do we fill our time? Because all of a sudden there's going to be this vacuum of time that has been dedicated for what will feel like and is 20 some odd years of child raising. We're going to have this new space, and we want to go into that to win. I don't want to get in there and go, well, who are you? You know, you're that partner of mine that we raise kids. So these mentor relationship, these connections, there's an openness. It feels like we have to have to make these things real.
Caleb Cole [00:14:33]:
Yeah. And I think that's the hardest thing for us as men, you know, is the openness, the vulnerability, the authenticity and honesty. And I know for me it was fear. It was fear of letting anyone close enough that could than really know me and then potentially betray me and hurt me because I had that in my past. What do you think are some of the reasons that hinder us from saying, all right, I'm going to find a few men in my life to really be real with, to keep it 100.
Brandon Miller [00:15:03]:
With, as they say, you know, first of all, we have to cross the street of asking for help. We have to acknowledge that there's going to be problems bigger than us and that independent spirit that we as men have, that, hey, I'm going to take this on myself. I'm going to find my way through, because that's what men do. There's times where you should knuckle down, should make it happen, get it done, just do it. But then there's also times where you're out of your depth. This is where you need help. And sitting in something that has the same recurring problem again. Again, let's use anger.
Brandon Miller [00:15:40]:
And if anger gets beyond some profanity laced tirades, some physical outbursts, whether that's moving something, hitting something, demonstrating demonstratively, I'm angry. And anger moves into cutting words and hurtful things and things that cause damage, right? That isn't just isolated, that's not once every six months that starts to recur. At some point, brothers gotta acknowledge I have an anger problem. I am mad at something. There is something in me that is fueling fire and trying to tame that fire in one's own strength. Very unlikely that we're gonna see progress there. Now, can God do it? You and him? Of course he can. But God seems to like working through his body.
Brandon Miller [00:16:34]:
He seems to like getting us with somebody else. That is a man of peace, a man of Shalom, a man of harmony, tranquility is magnanimous, high minded, takes the high road, doesn't seem to have things help. So you have an anger problem, and you're noticing, man, that brother seems to have it together, seems to hold it down. Maybe it's someone you're related to. Maybe it's someone you're around church with, someone you work with, crossing the street to, hey, can I talk, man? Can we go get a beverage? Can we have a conversation over this? Can I ask you a question? Sometimes it just starts small and opening yourself up to the possibility that someone other than you may need to know this, someone other you may need to help, you know, what did you do to overcome that, hey, what did you do to move past that? Sometimes those questions give you a doorway into a past, but there is a fear you have to come over. You know, if I go back to our verse of the season, right? Be on guard, stand firm. And I love the third little phrase, be courageous, because some courage has to happen. If I'm going to acknowledge anger is getting the better of me, then I'll use some extremes.
Brandon Miller [00:17:43]:
Caleb, I'm scaring my kids. I'm going to get in a fight in public. I'm going to end up in jail. Like, there's extremes, right? Anger problems. Get a handle on it. But you got to be courageous enough that need this help. And I got to connect with someone further down the path around me.
Caleb Cole [00:17:58]:
It's funny because I think that men actually will talk about these things with other men. I think we are able to be vulnerable and authentic, but we won't often take that step. Like you're saying, like, that step across the street, that jump into the deep end of going, hey, can we connect? Can we talk? And it's funny because I think women are better at this, naturally, generally speaking. And, you know, my wife will be hanging out with her girlfriends for five minutes, and they're already in the deep dive. They're crying. They're sharing their struggles. It's funny because my wife has often been like, hey, I was talking with so and so. And has her husband talked to you at all about their struggles, their marriage issues? And I'm like, no, I just hung out with them for 2 hours, and you didn't tell me.
Caleb Cole [00:18:46]:
And so it's funny that often, you know, I'm getting information secondhand, and then that puts me in a weird position of like, okay, am I going to go to him and be like, bro, listen, I really know what's going down, so you need to just tell me. And so usually it's me gently prodding and asking the right questions, and then finally it opens. And then once the door opens, it's like, boom, there it is. And they want help. We want to be better. We want to do better at our marriage, managing our anger at being men of God, at being better fathers and husbands. And we want to do better, but we often just won't take that first step of telling someone, having that hard conversation. It's crazy how often one conversation, it's like, that was the nugget I needed for this moment in this season and this situation.
Caleb Cole [00:19:36]:
If I hadn't had this conversation, I wouldn't have ever gotten some level of victory obviously doesn't mean we're gonna get victory overnight. Now, listen, can God help us? Yes. His holy spirit? Yes. Through his word? Yes. We need all of that. But ultimately, I've seen he works through his body. As you said, he works through people, and we weren't meant to do the faith journey alone. And so the antithesis of what is natural for us, which is that I got this man up, rub some dirt on it.
Caleb Cole [00:20:04]:
I'm gonna just do it in my strength, my way. I'll figure it out, physically, force all this to go away. I don't see it work. I've tried it.
Brandon Miller [00:20:14]:
It's too deep. And we're not even present to why it's there in our present reality. We're not even fully cognizant to. What is it that's snapping? What is it that's moving to this place of something I don't want? And so, here's a potential call up challenge for this episode. Sometimes it starts as simple as asking a brother to pray for you and being specific with what it is like. Just ask a brother that you trust, you think, you admire, you think you have some level of openness with just asking for prayer, because if you're the giver or receiver of this, allowing some error in the space to go, yes, I'll pray for you. Do you want to talk about it? Sometimes that little invitation alone allows a brother to unburden himself to just say, all right, here, let me take what I have been carrying that is weighing me down, and do you mind if I set it down here for a minute in front of us? Because I think I need some help, and I know in your role, and I'll speak to mine, as well. Sometimes just that step provides an opening for God to go, hey, thanks, son.
Brandon Miller [00:21:28]:
I got you with one of my others. And now let me have you both bring this in front of me, and let's watch what I can do here. And maybe it grows into mentoring. Maybe it just becomes a trusted brother. And I'll tell you a personal testimony here. A year ago, I coached football. And on the football field, I noticed that there were times where my frustration in coaching would lead to certain words coming out of my mouth. And those words seem to sound a lot like the other coaches words, that when I heard the words, I went, I don't really want to drop some of those words when I'm frustrated.
Brandon Miller [00:22:10]:
And I realized, as I started to put attention toward cleaning up my. My language, this is my own conviction. No one said a word to me you know, I'm a follower of Christ. And, you know, profanity may or may not be high on someone's list, but for me it felt like, nah, I'm not good with this. So I went to a guy that I know that happened to work with, and I said, hey, man, can you pray for me in this area? I'm going to do work here. And, bro, I'll tell you what, within three weeks, all of a sudden, it went from something that had some recurrence to it to almost none at all. None. And then what this brother ended up telling me was like, dude, that really inspired me, man.
Brandon Miller [00:22:49]:
I found that there were times that I was not representing well and I wasn't letting my tongue glorify God. I was saying things. And so now what it turned into a whole year later is me and this brother have this relationship around. Like, hey, man, we're in the no cuss club. We want to use other words. Not that, you know, whatever. You drop a word here or there, like, fine, you and God take that up. But I wanted to be a part of that and that.
Brandon Miller [00:23:14]:
Caleb, I'll tell you what, man. I saw God's power at work. I saw it happen fast and realized, dude, there's something to this synergy. When brothers come together in unity and agree on something, it seems to me that God shows up and stuff happens, and that's an invite to all of us to be thinking about.
Caleb Cole [00:23:32]:
I love that you were humble enough to go to someone, even someone that you work with, which I'm guessing that means they're beneath you organizationally, because I know you lead an organization. And what I found in my life is there was no one that ever called me out. Like a year and a half ago, two years ago, there was no one that ever called me out. And it wasn't that I was telling them they couldn't. It was just that there was no one that I had that access or I had given that permission to say, you see something, say something. And obviously our wives do that. But sometimes I'm not trying to hear it from her, and I need support from someone different than my spouse. Now, I'm not hiding anything from her, but there are times when I need a brother to speak into me and over me, and that only comes with permission, you know, you gave the call up of that.
Caleb Cole [00:24:30]:
Maybe it's a phone call, maybe it's a text. Maybe it's a, hey, would you pray for me? Maybe it's a, can we meet up for lunch, for coffee? Sometimes just the vulnerability is the invitation for permission to speak into what we see and into a situation that we need truth in. And I was thinking about psalm 133, one that says how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell together in unity. And unity is something we talk about in the church a lot of. And we're going to be talking about a lot more coming up in this political season. But what does it look like for brothers to dwell in unity? Well, the only way that's possible is when we're connected and we allow people to speak into us. That doesn't mean there's not friction. You know, we talk about iron sharpening iron all the time, as proverbs tells us.
Caleb Cole [00:25:22]:
And with iron sharpening iron, there's sparks, right? So we're going to see sparks. We're going to see sparks flying with the friction that it creates. But, man, that invitation, I think, is the call up today. Has there been an invitation from you to someone to speak some level of truth into a situation where you're willing to be honest and authentic, as hard as it may be for you, because your whole life you've done it alone and try to protect yourself from anyone really knowing your weaknesses, and yet there's something freeing about doing it. There's something freeing about vulnerability and saying, man, I actually do need people. I do need a brother alongside of me, and I'm thankful that this has been a year of me doing that for the first time. You know, Brandon, even having these conversations with you has been even more of that for me. Like, let's talk about it.
Caleb Cole [00:26:13]:
Because I realized personally, I needed people to speak into me over me and how lonely I was because I was doing it alone. And, like, that's just. To be honest, I thought I was good, and I realized I was lonely, and I thought that was just how it was supposed to be and always going to be. I'm so happy that I am in this new season because there's a fulfillment that I found and this idea that, like, it's pleasant for God, he said, to see his brothers walking in unity, dwelling together.
Brandon Miller [00:26:46]:
I'm glad you mentioned that. I actually have psalm 133 pulled up on my phone, and while we've been talking, I had noticed that he calls this unity precious. He calls it refreshing. And he goes on to say that this is where he pronounces his blessing in that space. And so for what you're hearing today, brothers across that street, just start where you start. You may not be able yet to go to the deepest issue you're facing. Start with Wundt. If you are there, then take it down a level.
Brandon Miller [00:27:18]:
If you've been around this and you've been waiting to bring forward something strong, something hard, this is your invitation. Just call up, right? Let's hold each other up. Because if you're on the other side of it, let's just encourage those guys. Caleb, if you're on the other side of it, hey, be gracious, be kind. Listen more than we talk. Listen to the Lord. Let God do his work as we encourage one another because this is powerful when we operate in this way, pronounced blessing according to scripture.
Caleb Cole [00:27:46]:
So, hey, thanks for being with us today on the Men of Faith podcast, something new. You guys can actually watch all of the episodes now on YouTube. If you go to Project church Sacramento, just search that on YouTube. Project church Sacramento, I'd encourage you to subscribe. There is a tab. Obviously, we have our sermons from our church on there, but then there's a tab for podcasts. And so the brotherhood Men of Faith podcast is on there as well as our sisterhood podcast. So you could recommend that one to your wives or girlfriends or spouses, but you can watch these as well as listen if you're listening, we're on Spotify and iTunes, and we come out every other Friday with a new episode.
Caleb Cole [00:28:27]:
So thanks so much for joining us today. We can't wait to see us become greater Men of Faith as we're called. Grace and peace, y'all. Thanks for listening to Men of Faith. If you've got questions you'd like us to talk about on the show, we'd love to hear from you. Join the conversation by reaching out in the Facebook group and we will definitely add it to our list. Also, if you want to engage with us at any of our quarterly men's events, you can check out projectchurch.com for more information. Until next time, grace and peace.