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In this podcast, I am going to spill the beans about my semester abroad at North Carolina State University in Raleigh. That's going to include traveling tips, college gossip, cool events in Raleigh or nearby, day-to-day college life, restaurant tips and everything else I feel like talking about :) Be prepared to be entertained! This podcast is produced in collaboration with NC State student radio WKNC 88.1 FM HD-1/HD-2.
Rebecca Schaden 0:11
Hello guys and welcome to my podcast "BeccyOnTour" about my semester abroad in Raleigh, North Carolina in the United States. My name is Beccy and I am your reliable source into the exciting world of American college life. So if that sounds like something you'd be interested in, stay tuned.
Today, we have a guest who is going to give you guys some valuable insights into the US American working life, specifically in the sales and marketing industry. What should young people who are considering a career in sales or marketing know about the job market, application process, career development, and the industry in general. Please welcome with me Dr. David H Henard, Marketing and Business Administration professor, at NC State and in France, and former employee in the sales and marketing divisions of Oscar Mayer and Kraft Foods USA of Philip Morris companies. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me today, and helping my listeners to better understand the Ins and Outs of the US American corporate life.
Dr. David H Henard 1:40
Well, thank you, Rebecca. It's a pleasure to be here.
Rebecca Schaden 1:42
Thank you so much. To start off this interview, I would ask you to please introduce yourself, stating your name, your job position, educational background and your dream job growing up.
Dr. David H Henard 1:54
So as you said, I'm a Professor of Business Management and Marketing here at North Carolina State University. It's a second career for me, I've spent several years working in sales and marketing and promotions prior to that. My educational background, I'm over educated, I have a university degree, undergraduate degree from the University of Tennessee, a graduate degree from Emory University, and my PhDs from Texas A&M. I also have several certifications from Harvard, and University of Southern California. And I would add that everything except my university degree came after I was 30 years old. So kind of, I use that to parlay into a second career and my dream job, I wanted to be a physician when I was a little boy, I wanted to be a doctor.
Rebecca Schaden 2:40
That is like completely different than what do you actually are right now. But I think that's just how life goes sometimes.
Dr. David H Henard 2:47
It is.
Rebecca Schaden 2:49
Last week, you gave me some advice regarding Resumes and your book, "Stand Out Resumes" on that topic was really helpful, especially because the requirements for US Resumes differ quite strongly from Austrian and European ones. Could you please share some Do's and Don'ts with my audience when it comes to Resumes that might be different from the typical European CV?
Dr. David H Henard 3:12
Yeah, I think the biggest difference is and not all American students do this, by the way, either way. But I'm looking at this from a perspective of a business person who has looked at 1000s upon 1000s of resumes from individuals over the years. And the biggest thing that you do and don't is most people tend to focus on the job that they held or the tasks that they did. And when you're a young person, those can be fairly limited. It can be I'm a waiter, or I'm a waitress, or I was in retail, or I had an internship and with this company, and so when you list your tasks, and you list your positions down, it really doesn't differentiate you from anybody else. It doesn't make you stand out. And so the biggest thing that I can say is focus on the skill sets that you either learned in that job or that you used to perform that job. For instance, a lot of resumes will say, well, I was a waitress, and I waited on tables, and I brought food and I brought drinks, and that's very mundane. All right, but when you are a waitress, you are also perfecting your communication skills, there are problem solving skills, there are teamwork skills, there are time management skills, there's all kinds of skills that you use or learn in that position that will be a benefit to you later on. And so the biggest differentiating factor I can say in in a resume is focus on the skills that you learned or the skills that you had and not the task that you performed. Because as an employer, we are looking for people with specific skills that depends on the industry. And if you can get across that you have those skills, you're far more likely or your resume is far more likely to stand out in the stack full of resumes.
Rebecca Schaden 4:59
Yeah, and I think like one big difference is also the photo...
Dr. David H Henard 5:03
Photos. Yeah. For those of you who want to apply to the United States, do not attach a photo to your resume. That's very much for forbidden and would be frowned upon. It's just not a cultural thing that we do here.
Rebecca Schaden 5:16
Yeah, I mean, like some CV's don't have that in Austria as well, I think it depends on the industry in Austria because like the creative industry, they're willing to have it on it. But if you apply for a finance major, for example, you probably should not use a photo.
Dr. David H Henard 5:30
Yeah, and I would say, I would say that basically is the same here, as well. The more creative, if you're looking at communication or visual arts or something like that, you can be a little bit more flamboyant in the way you present your material in both your resume and in extra materials that you put forth.
Rebecca Schaden 5:49
As a great percentage of my audience right now lives, studies and works in Europe, I thought it would be interesting to dive deeper into the differences on the job market in the United States and Europe. In class, you told us that you are also teaching at universities in France, in addition to your work here. Could you tell me about any observations you might have made concerning differences in what employers are looking for in a new employee in the United States and France to kind of see the differences in the marketing sales industry?
Dr. David H Henard 6:21
Yeah, part of it piggybacks on some of the comments I just made. But I know in France, there is a system and it may be the same in Austria and other European countries, it probably is. There's a system set up to where there is guaranteed employment, whether it's an internship or entry level employment, and it's basically a social compact between companies overseas and in Europe and the government. And that system really doesn't apply here in the United States. It's not here. And I think at both levels, though, and so if so United States, we're looking for probably longer term employees, there's, there's no guaranteed job, there's no guarantee that you're going to be able to stay in a position. And I think in the US, what we're looking for is, again, that skill set. And as as a former business person, and I would look at you say interviewing with my company, I don't expect you at your age to understand all the ins and outs about my industry. But if I get a sense that you have the skill sets that are pertinent to someone successful in my industry, I will take the time to teach you my industry. But I don't want to take the time to teach you both of these things. And I can really speak only more intelligently to France and the US because that's where most of my interactions are, I have noticed in the last two or three years, an increasing percentage of French students who want to come to work with US companies, which is more difficult since 9/11. But it's more difficult to do that. But they want to come to work for US companies because they get the feeling that they can be more themselves, and they can flourish more at a US company whereas they're kind of pigeon holed at an early point in a French or European company. And so I'm actually seeing more and more of that over time, which is interesting, because I had did not hear that several years ago.
Rebecca Schaden 8:19
So would you say that in France there is a specific career plan that companies have planned for their employees? Is that what you're saying?
Dr. David H Henard 8:29
My impression is it's more standardized over there than it is here in the United States. And that in the United States, partly culture partly, but just as the way our companies are organized as private entities, there are more options for an individual moving up through an organization and as the world becomes more global, and young people all over the world communicate with each other. I think, you know, what I'm sensing is in Europe, younger people are wanting more, and they're not satisfied with the old ways. And they want more options. They want more choice, they want more opportunities, and just simply having a job is necessary, but it's not sufficient. They want more and I totally agree with that. And so I see more and more students looking to the US as a way of: "Hey, this is where I can get more and this is where I have more opportunities."
Rebecca Schaden 9:22
That is my experience totally. As part of the "Personal Sell" university course you gave us some real life examples to discuss and mentioned that those were based on your own experiences working in the sales industry. Could you tell me about the company you worked for your positions, your responsibilities? In short, what can someone who just graduated from college and plans to pursue a career in sales expect to be working on?
Dr. David H Henard 9:49
Sales is a wonderful place to start out for an individual and I know that historically, a sales profession has not been looked upon or regarded highly in Europe. And probably the same in the United States as well. You know, it's kind of reserved for those people that didn't make the grades and couldn't go in engineering school, couldn't go to professional schools. They went into to sales. Now that's changed quite a bit over the past few years. So professional sales is quite a professional career, and especially in the United States. I never intended to go into sales as an undergraduate, I was a bioscience undergraduate, as I told you, I wanted to be a physician, that didn't work out. But by the time I was a senior in the university, I didn't want to start all over again, and spend another year or two. So I graduated in that. But I've been, I started with Kraft in their science area, the research and development. So I worked on quality control, quality assurance, research, development, new products, and things like that. And in the course of that I interacted with our Kraft salespeople. And I realized pretty quickly, they had a much cooler job than I had. They made more money, they had much more upward mobility than I had. And so I made the jump into sales. So it was nothing that I ever, it was never planned out to go into that. But I realized pretty quickly, and as I tell students, the nice thing about sales, there's so many multiple touchpoints, between salespeople in their organizations, you're dealing with marketing people, finance people, supply chain people, you've got customers, you have suppliers, you have competitors, and as a salesperson, you interact with all of these people. And sales really can be the path to take you where you want to go. So the typical sales career path is going from a smaller account to a larger account to even larger account, and then into management and things like that. I never wanted to be in sales forever. So I used sales as a path to get me into higher level management into much more strategic marketing areas. And so that's what I did. It put me in touch with people that allowed me to pitch my case and ultimately get positions that I wanted.
Rebecca Schaden 12:03
Thank you. And that was actually my second question. Do you think that people here in the United States can actually just start with marketing? Or do you kind of have to go that path through sales to get to a marketing position?
Dr. David H Henard 12:18
In a small company, anybody can start in anything, but if you're talking about medium sized to large companies, and most of my experiences with very large, fortune five fortune 10 companies, to start in marketing, you typically have to have an MBA or master's degree to do a job of any significance. Sales doesn't take that. A Bachelor's degree, a university degree will get you into sales, but sales can lead you very quickly into marketing, in my experience. Sales took me into marketing and when I got into marketing, then I went back to school and got my MBA, which was going to take me up, at the time, would take me up into higher level management. So sales was the vehicle that got me to that point, but it's it's really different in each company. But the nice thing about sales, relative to other professions is if you perform well, you are compensated almost immediately, whether it's through cash, you know, financial or non financial promotion, things like that. And so, unlike many industries, you can rise pretty quickly through an organization through sales. And in the United States, for example, most of the CEOs of major American companies came from either sales, or finance. And I believe that is because in order to run a company, you need to know two things, you need to understand money, and you need to understand people. And so sales is one of those two avenues that can kind of, if you want to, can take you to the top of an organization.
Rebecca Schaden 13:51
In class, we also briefly touched on Career Development and promotions in the sales and marketing industry. Would you say that most sales companies have a specific career plan where new employees start off as sales representatives before moving on to higher paid positions? You kind of already touched on that. But maybe you could just dive a little deeper into that topic. And also drawing from your personal experience. Would you say that staying in the same company will help you get promoted sooner? Or do you think that a new position in a new company might be more beneficial for your career?
Dr. David H Henard 14:25
So I think most sales organizations have a defined career path and as I said, you move from a small account to a little bit larger account to larger accounts. And so as you gain experience, you get more and more responsibility because in larger and larger accounts are larger and larger territories and I think that's that's pretty common. But as I said in sales, it gives you the opportunity to shoot off and do something different. You can go into management or not go into management I as I said I wanted to go into upper level management. But when I first moved into sales management, I had sales people who worked under me that actually made more money than I did. Because they were at a stage and had customers that they were very comfortable with. And they made a very good living. And I will say that you can make a lot of money in sales. It's a very lucrative career path, especially here in the United States. And they were happy doing that, I didn't want to do that. But I was also happy making less than them, because I knew ultimately, I would make more as I moved to higher up the ladder. And so that that's one of the beautiful things about sales that a lot of functional areas don't have. As far as staying at the same company or jumping around. That kind of depends on the organization. Here in the US, I would say you want to at least be somewhere two three years before you leave. Because if you started jumping around too quickly, just to make a little bit more money, eventually you look like, we use the term "Job Hopper", and that doesn't bode well. And it tends to hurt you in the long run. But I think as long as you are being rewarded, whether that's financially or whether that's through promotions, whether that's through new responsibilities, most Americans will stay where they are. But if they hit a level where there's no longer an opportunity, or they're not making what they should make on the market, they'll then make the jump. And so I really can't give you a straight answer, because I think it depends upon the situation. And both things can work out well for you.
Rebecca Schaden 16:26
So would do you say it is risky to change jobs and change companies, because you might not find another job opportunity so soon?
Dr. David H Henard 16:36
My impression is, to use your word, it is riskier in the United States, than it would be in Europe. There are fewer guarantees than there are in Europe. We have something over here we call "at will employment", which basically means that any company can fire you for any reason whatsoever. There's anything with cause, without cause, and the majority of the 50 states, I think now are "at will states". So there really is not much of a safety net for American employees. And we don't have time to go into why that is. But it just simply is. And so I think there's less of a tendency to risk leaving, because you might not find a company or position that you want in the geographical area you want. I think if you're willing to move anywhere and go anywhere in the United States or elsewhere, there's not much of a risk, you know, you can leave now and take a job in California or take a job in New York and take a job in Texas, wherever it happens to be there's something there. But if if you wanted to live here and you wanted to stay in Raleigh, North Carolina, then it would be a little more risky for you. And I think that's a tendency, why people might not leave a company in the United States as quickly or as easily as they might in Austria or France or somewhere else.
Rebecca Schaden 18:01
Thank you for explaining that. Because, as you guys probably know, that is very different in Europe. I've noticed that students here are very comfortable when it comes to introducing and selling themselves, so to speak to potential employers, professors, customers, and so on and so forth. For us Europeans, that can be pretty daunting and difficult because at least in Austria, people would feel like you're bragging and take offense. So what advice can you give my listeners in terms of being more confident and outspoken when it comes to talking about themselves and pitching their skills and experiences? For example, to potential employers?
Dr. David H Henard 18:40
Yeah, that's a phenomenon I've noticed as well. And I think it's, it's a cultural phenomenon. So if I can defend some of my Americans here a little bit, then again, to answer your question is, we have a very individualistic culture. And I think almost all of our children are taught, from the moment they can understand anything that you can be anything you want, there, you can be the President of the United States, you can be Steve Jobs, you can start your own company, there's nothing that can hold you back. And all you got to do is put in the effort, and the time and anything, it can become available to you. And I think that's something you know, for hundreds of years, at least a couple 100 years, we've built that into our children. And I think sometimes that comes across, which makes Americans more comfortable talking about themselves and talking about things. And I know, having traveled and worked around the world that that comes across sometimes as the ugly, stereotypical "Ugly American". And I think most people, most Americans don't mean it that way. We're just naturally more outgoing and informal and say what we mean because that's how we are rewarded from an early age. And several of us could do it probably a little more nicely and less vociferously and alleviate as much as possible that ugly American stereotype, but I think it comes natural to most of us. And I understand, you know, culturally, that there's differences where someone does not naturally feel comfortable doing that. There's also, in doing a lot of research from my negotiation book, they're looking at the differences between men and women, women, on average, in general, are more reluctant to talk about themselves, and their accomplishments than are men. And so it's a cultural dynamic, it comes across the sexes, that comes with, you know, how you're raised, and family, all these things come into play. And the differences come into play there. But I would say everybody needs to get some level of comfort, about telling all the good things they have to say about themselves. I mean, you as we'll talk about in class, this semester, you're the most important product you'll ever sell in your life. And you as a young person, you have, you have so much more to offer than I had to offer, when I was your age. I mean, things have changed dramatically. And in looking at you, you know, you're at least you know, bilingual, if not polylingual, you have all these experiences, you've got different attitudes, you got different experiences, you've been exposed to so many things, you as a young person, now you have more value than any of you out there listening, realize that you do, you just have to look at it from that perspective. And you don't have to be braggadocious about it. You don't have to be arrogant about it. But what you do need to do is realize your own self worth. And don't be afraid to tell that to somebody else, you know, here, here's why I'm worth this much money, here's why you should hire me because I have these experiences and this attitude. And I'm young, and I'm energetic. And I'm an open page. And you know, I'll run through walls for you. There's just a lot of things that young people around the world have to offer, that they're sometimes reticent to speak about.
Rebecca Schaden 21:59
I completely agree with you. And I personally do not think that it's bragging, I am very impressed by the ability of Americans to sell themselves to customers to employers, and just not be afraid to say what they can do and the skills they have and the experience they've made. I think that we should really work on ourselves to kind of make that a culture in Europe and to not be afraid to speak of ourselves in that way.
Dr. David H Henard 22:26
Well, I have seen it. But I would say to that I personally am a very quiet, reserved individual. And it was never my nature, even when working for Kraft or in education, it was never my nature to -as we say- "toot my own horn" and say, here's why I'm so good. Here's why I'm worth this. It's just not... It never came naturally to me. And I felt a little uncomfortable doing that. Because I thought that, you know, obviously, it should be obvious to you that I'm doing a good job. And you should therefore, you know, compensate me. Why do I need to remind you of this? But I do have learned over the years, that if you don't promote yourself, and if you don't -as we say- toot your own horn, no one else is going to do it for you. And somebody else is going to take that job and somebody else is going to get that raise and somebody else is going to get that opportunity. And so I've learned to push myself beyond whatever my normal comfort zone and comfort levels are and actually do more self promotion than I otherwise would do.
Rebecca Schaden 23:26
We touched briefly on negotiation skills in class. And I thought it is pretty important for employees nowadays, regardless of the position they're working in. To dive into all would definitely go beyond the scope of this podcast. But could you maybe elaborate on three skills that are useful to have when preparing for wage negotiations?
Dr. David H Henard 23:46
Yeah, obviously, as you know, this goes well, well beyond a few minutes of conversation. But if I was looking to simply at wage negotiations, which I do spend a lot of time helping my students out with when they're getting jobs. I would say it's three things. And we talked about these actually in class this past week. It's assessing yourself, assessing your counterpart, whom you're negotiating with and assessing the situation. And most people go into any type of wage negotiation, just mainly assessing themselves. What are they trying to get out of it? And that's important, you should do that. Well, what are my goals? What are my objectives? Am I trying to get more money from this? Am I trying to get more responsibilities? Am I trying to get a raise? I mean, am I trying to get a promotion? You know, what, am I particularly good at? What am I not so good at? What are the tasks I enjoy? What do I not enjoy? So understanding what it is you specifically want from this negotiation interaction. But the second thing that a lot of people don't do is look at it from the counterparts perspective. Alright, you know, what is he or she looking for, you know, they're the ones with the money, they're the ones with the job, you know, what are they expecting from you, and you need to as much as you possibly can look at it from their perspective. For instance, if you were negotiating with me for a salary increase. If you come into the negotiation from the mindset of a 20 year old female you might do okay. But if you've thought about it from the mindset of a 60 year old man, as difficult as that might be, but looking at it, from my perspective, you know, what's important to me? What am I looking for in a candidate? If you've thought about that, before you go in, you're going to be far more successful than somebody who hasn't. And then the last thing is, you know, assessing the situation. There's some points in time when employers have more leverage than employees. And there's other times where that's just the opposite. Is this a one time negotiation? Or are we going to meet multiple times? In the future? Though, did the the outcomes of this negotiation have any what we call linkage effects? Meaning does it impact anything else that you may have to negotiate or deal with in the future. So understanding these three things is going to make you and again, before you walk in there, this is going to make you far more effective in a salary negotiation than someone who just walks in trying to advocate for themselves.
Rebecca Schaden 26:04
Thank you so much, Dr. Henard for coming today and talking to me about your experiences in the sales industry, but also giving my listeners some tips, how they should act in a wage negotiation setting, or just in general, if they plan on pursuing a career in sales. We have arrived at the end of the interview. And as I am a big fan of quotes and inspirational sayings, I would like to ask you to share your favorite quotes with my listeners, and let us know why it has special meaning to you.
Dr. David H Henard 26:39
That's a difficult one. I'm glad to hear that. I also love quotes. Since I was young, I used to buy books of quotes. When I was younger, I think, I believe very much in the power of words. There's so many, there's so many over the years. And I'll go with the first one that comes into my mind and it is not pandering to you is by you know Friedrich Nietzsche. And I wish I could give it to you in the original German, it would make my grandmother proud. But in English, it translates, you know, roughly into: That, that doesn't kill me, only serves to make me stronger". And there's another quote that I think about often it's the flip side of that it's from the United States Marine Corps, which is basically "Adapt and Overcome". And it might not be the most positive of quotes, but for me, it's served me well. And those stick in my mind, because some of us have not always had the easiest path. And there are people that are standing in our path to try and prevent us from getting where we want to go. There's difficulties in life that we have to overcome. And the both of those quotes have just stuck with me since I was a very young person. And I've just found that life is tough, tougher for some than others. But if you will face your fears head on, if you will face your obstacles head on. If you have anything that stands in your way, adapt yourself to that situation, figure out how to overcome that situation, and move forward from that situation. And I found that every time you do overcome an obstacle, it literally does make you stronger, and it makes it easier to overcome obstacles in the future. And looking back over many, many years, I now approach things with far less fear, far less trepidation, because I know I've gone through this before I've gone through something similar before. And you know what, it didn't kill me. It made me better. And it made me stronger. And so that's not necessarily a positive quote, but it's something that's been very appropriate to to my life and my experiences.
Rebecca Schaden 28:45
Thank you for these encouraging words. And I can just really confirm them. Sometimes life is tough. Sometimes things happen that we have to deal with that are not nice. And I think it is actually a positive quote, because it shows that it can be done. You can overcome your fears, even when it's hard.
Thank you guys so much for listening today. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I did. I thought it was really interesting to learn more about the US American working life, especially in the sales and marketing industry, because I have a personal special interest in that industry. And I think it was really fascinating to hear that there are so many differences between US American working life and European Working life. Just let me know guys, what do you thought of it? If you have any questions for me or Dr. Henard? I'm sure he'll be happy to answer them for you. And as always, you can DM me on Instagram on beccy_schdn or on my second account beccyontour_. Don't hesitate. I might be a little bit slower when it comes to answering right now because my phone's broken but as soon as I get it, I will get back to you as soon as possible. So I hope you have a nice rest of the week. Tell me how you liked the episode and I'll hear you in the next one. Bye bye.
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