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Welcome to Driven By Excellence, your trusted place for all things logistics and road safety from PDT Fleet Training. Each month, join host Hattie Hlad as she interviews experts on a wide range of topics within the logistics field.
[00:00:00] Hattie Hlad: Driven By Excellence, your trusted place for all things logistics and road safety. Today we're joined by none other than former Traffic Commissioner Beverley Bell. If you're an LGV fleet operator, she needs no introduction. Beverley was appointed Traffic Commissioner for the North West of England in 2000, becoming the first female commissioner, and in 2011 she was appointed as Senior Traffic Commissioner for Great Britain. Today we're going to hear about her career within that role and find out about what work she's continuing to do within the road safety sector.
Beverley, thanks so much for joining us, let's jump straight in. So for our listeners who may not understand the role of a Traffic Commissioner, can you just explain what the responsibilities are for someone holding such a prestigious role?
[00:00:48] Beverley Bell: Yes, I'm happy to, and thank you very much for the invitation, it's nice to be here. So, Traffic Commissioners, there's only eight of them, and they regulate the commercial vehicle industry, goods vehicles, lorries, and also buses and coaches and their job is to really sit as a judge in a transport court, and if operators don't comply with the terms of the licence, they can appear before that traffic commissioner in that court. It's actually a tribunal, but it's effectively a court and then the traffic commissioner can take action against the licence. Their main role as the commissioner is to put people right. It's not to put them out of business, but they can in certain circumstances actually take their licence away. But other than that, what they're generally doing is putting operators back on the road to compliance by, for example, saying, I'm going to let you carry on operating, but I might reduce your vehicle authority. So instead of operating 100 vehicles, you might only be able to operate 80, or they may say the vehicles have got to be parked up for a period of time, maybe a weekend, and they might combine that with, for example, some driver training, or having the vehicles given more safety inspections, so they're really interested in the outcome of the case to make sure that the operator does it right. So, in a nutshell, that's what they do.
[00:02:01] Hattie Hlad: That's really interesting. Can you talk us through how you became the first female to be appointed as a Traffic Commissioner and were there any barriers to contend with to achieve that?
[00:02:11] Beverley Bell: I don't think there were barriers to contenders to achieve that. I think the barriers come after the appointment. So when I applied back in 1999, last century, at the tender age of 39, all of the traffic commissioners were what I call male, pale, stale. They were all retired brigadiers and air vice marshals, looking really for a part time job until they retired because they'd already retired from the armed forces and the Department for Transport back in 1999 wanted to appoint three new commissioners and so I applied. I did think I was too young. I did think I was too female, but I did think it would put my name forward. But the silly buggers gave me the job, or one of the jobs and I think the challenges came after that. You know, I have huge affection for the traffic commissioners at the time, you know, and I'm still great friends with them. But it was a very different world and I remember on the first occasion we went down to London and this was the Department for Transport at their offices and the lady with the tea trolley came in and the senior traffic commissioner said, pour the tea Beverley, and I just laughed and I said, well however did you cope until I arrived? How did you manage to drink the tea? And one of the very lovely traffic commissioners says, oh don't be silly Beverley, I'll pour the tea and then there were operators who were like, we've got a girl representing the traffic commissioners and regulating us, what does she know about trucks? What does she know about buses? What does she know about coaches? And one operator who ran buses said to me, well at least you'll know what it's like to get on and off a bus with a buggy. Which again I thought was quite an interesting perspective and so I think I had to work harder to prove myself and I therefore went and took the qualification, the Transport Manager CPC qualification, which you have to have if you want to be a Transport Manager and for me, basically, failure wasn't an option. I've never been so terrified in my life as I was when I took that exam in 2002, because I'd not sat an exam since I'd been at university, years before, and thank goodness I passed. So I had to work hard to earn their respect, not to expect it as of right, but to earn it and the final barrier was knowing my limitations.
[00:04:34] Hattie Hlad: What do you mean by that?
[00:04:35] Beverley Bell: So, I don't know how an internal combustion engine works. I have no desire to know how one works. But I do need to know about commercial vehicles. But again, I don't need to know the fine tunings of all the various moving parts. But as long as I know the basics, and as long as I know where to go for advice, then I'm going to be okay. So, that's what I mean. Don't blag it and pretend you know what a suspension shackle pin is if you don't.
[00:05:01] Hattie Hlad: If we can, we'd like to delve into the scenarios you've dealt with over your career. What sort of situations would mean a fleet operator would end up in front of you, and what does that process look like?
[00:05:12] Beverley Bell: So, if I deal with the last part first, the process is very straightforward. The DVSA, who are effectively the enforcement agency, will go and see an operator or they'll conduct an assessment from their office and they will decide whether or not they need to meet the commissioner, I always say without coffee and that's a public inquiry hearing and that process can take anything between three and six months.
[00:05:34] Hattie Hlad: Oh, wow.
[00:05:34] Beverley Bell: Because DVSA will go in, they'll do an investigation, they might then need to do some interviews, look at matters in detail, and then they have to send a report to the Commissioner's Office, and then the Commissioner's Office will then decide what to do, and that It can take, you know, three to six months.
It can take three, it just depends and that really gives the operator a period of time to put things right. But once that call up letter lands on the mat of the operator, the doormat of the operator's premises, they've generally got three or four weeks and then it's, you know, scramble. Make sure you get everything ready.
In terms of what sort of situations bring an operator to public inquiry, we deal with this on our transport manager refresher training courses. We look at the causes of compliance, not the symptoms. So the symptoms would be poor maintenance. The symptoms would be failing to comply with the driver's hours rules and the TACORAF regulations. The causes could be million and one and we have, I think the latest we we were up to on our last one was about 25 reasons. So things like a transport manager who's in post, but they don't have the skills, or they don't have the knowledge, or they've not been on a refresher course, or they're a really nice person and they can't shout at the drivers, or they're not managing their maintenence contractor. The proportion of operators who wake up in the morning and say, I'm not going to do it properly is tiny. It's probably one or two percent. Most failures are caused by a range of situations, as I say, it could be lack of training, lack of systems. Or, my particular favourite, we've always done it like that, love, and we've not killed anybody yet, why do we need to change? So it's about culture, it's about complacency, it's about competence.
[00:07:22] Hattie Hlad: Absolutely. What advice would you give fleet operators to ensure they maintain a safe and legally compliant fleet operation?
[00:07:30] Beverley Bell: People don't operate commercial vehicles because they're made to, they do it because they choose to and the single piece of advice we always give operators in any scenario is, take expert advice at all stages. Don't wait until something's gone wrong, be proactive. So if you are thinking of increasing your fleet and applying to the traffic commissioner for an increase, maybe have a health check, maybe have an audit and see that things are as they should be. Maybe spend half an hour on the phone to a transport solicitor or transport consultant and say, what do we need to do as we grow? Don't wait until things have gone wrong to then take the advice. So that's the advice that we always give and also recruit the right people and monitor them and mentor them and make sure that you're managing those people.
[00:08:23] Hattie Hlad: We all have those standout moments within our career, be that a project, and maybe in your role, a particular case, what would be your standout case you were involved in, and why does that stay in your mind?
[00:08:34] Beverley Bell: Again, they fall into categories. In terms of the one that I had to do the most work on, my decision was, I think, 85 pages, whereas most decisions are about three and that was a huge case with deliberate failure to comply with the driver's hours rules and the tachograph regulations where road safety was really compromised. So that is a big standout one. But the ones that live with you, and will always live with you, are the ones where the fatalities occur and where you meet the bereaved and where you then have to deal with those operators who have caused that loss, that death and that's where your emotion can come in and you have to really be detached professionally and they're the ones that live with you. We do a couple on our course. One involved a coach that went down to the Isle of Wight festival, music festival and on the way back, the driver of the coach and two young people died as a result of the operator deliberately yes, called a Mercy Pride case. As a result of the operator deliberately choosing to put a 19 year old tire on a vehicle, I dealt with that case and before I went in, and I still get upset now before I went into the public inquiry because the operator didn't come to the hearing, couldn't even face anybody, and before I went in, my press officer gave me photographs of the deceased and I know why he did it and he did it so I had a good cry before I went into the public inquiry rather than during the public inquiry and the loss of those lives was utterly needless and it was down to a deliberate action by an operator.
The reason that case stays with me is because it brought about a change in the law. So the mother of the young man who died, lobbied the Department for Transport for a long time and I absolutely admire the lady and she didn't get the answers she wanted from the department, and so she carried on and she never gave up and so there's a law now on guidance from the department, which says that operators must not put tires that are over 10 years old on certain axles.
[00:10:49] Hattie Hlad: That's great.
[00:10:50] Beverley Bell: And then the other thing, I was a commissioner at the time in the Northwest and I got together all of the industry and the industry worked together, goods and passenger, to develop a best practice tire guide to make sure that operators know the risks of tires themselves, not just their age, but know the risks and so they can take the right action...
[00:11:14] Hattie Hlad: That's amazing.
[00:11:15] Beverley Bell: ...to prevent it happening again. So I have a lot to be grateful for to that lady for what she did in, lobbying the department. So that's the one I think probably will always stay with me.
[00:11:26] Hattie Hlad: Beverley, from anyone who's sat in our studio, you are one of the most that's connected to the rule of law. If you had complete autonomy to change a law connected to transport and safety, would there be one? And if so, what would it be and why?
[00:11:39] Beverley Bell: I've thought long and hard about this question and there's no one particular piece of law or legislation that I would want to bring in. What I would like to be able to, if I had my magic wand. would be to make everybody aware of the consequences of not complying.
[00:11:58] Hattie Hlad: Yeah.
[00:11:59] Beverley Bell: Some legislation is there for other reasons. Operator licensing legislation is there for reasons of road safety and fair competition and lots of operators are not aware of it, or they think it's there for reasons of red tape, oh, I've got to, I've got to do a driver default reporting system every day, oh, what a pain that is. But it's making them understand and most of them do, you know, don't forget, I'm talking about a tiny proportion who don't. Most of them do understand why and what happens if it goes wrong.
For me, the one thing, if I had autonomy, would be making operators really aware of what happens if they get it wrong. I spoke to an operator the other day and he used this lovely phrase, he said, Beverley, I wasn't born with the DVSA guides maintaining roadworthiness in my hand. I thought it was a really good point, but at what point do you make sure that the operators are educated enough to understand what happens when it goes wrong.
[00:12:54] Hattie Hlad: Yeah absolutely, and you don't want to put them in a position that they have to learn if an accident happens, you want to maintain that.
[00:13:01] Beverley Bell: Yes.
[00:13:02] Hattie Hlad: In 2017, you left your role of Traffic Commissioner and set up Beverley Bell Consulting Limited. What led you to that decision and what are the aims of the consultancy?
[00:13:12] Beverley Bell: So, when I was appointed in 1999, 2000, I reached my 40th birthday at the end of 1999 and because, do you remember I said that most people had done it as a bit of a part time job until they retired, because they were appointed in the late 50s? Well, at 40, you think, right, okay, I'll go when I'm 50, I'll do 10 years because most commissioners hadn't sort of done, you know, lots and lots of years. Well, of course, I got to 50 and thought I'm enjoying this so much, I can't possibly give up and then I got to 55 and thought hmm, I've been doing this job for 15 years. I'm not sure that's good for the industry because, you know, it's a small industry, although there's thousands of vehicles, it's a relatively small industry in terms of, you know, people know each other and I thought, is it actually good for the North West to have the same regulator for 15 years? And then I became the Senior Traffic Commissioner in 2011. So that was another challenge and when I got to 57, I thought, 17 years, it's long enough, it's long enough for the operators. I need to give them a break and I need to give me a break. I always loved my work, but the point at which you think, I'm not sure I want to carry on doing this, I think that's the point where you say, it's time to go and so, I didn't resign as a commissioner, I retired as a commissioner at 57. But I thought, I like shopping, and I like shoes, and I like handbags, and I like holidays. So if I had a little bit of a consultancy business, I could probably afford that.So I'll just do two or three days a week and then the other two days, Monday to Friday, I'll go shopping, go for lunch, have a lovely time. So I bought a laptop, stuck a couple of adverts in motor transport and thought I might get a little bit of work and people started ringing me up and I'm sure, well, are you sure you want to ask me? And they're like, yes. So it sort of grew organically and the purpose of it was really to share some of my knowledge and the lessons learned with operators and the business has really grown from that time and I think I've now got eight or ten people but it's still doing the same thing and it's advising operators on how not to get into trouble...
[00:15:32] Hattie Hlad: Yeah.
[00:15:33] Beverley Bell: ...in the first place, or if you are in trouble, what you do to get out of it?
[00:15:38] Hattie Hlad: Yeah.
[00:15:38] Beverley Bell: Because those of us or all of us in this room have been in trouble at some stage in our lives, even if it's only with the head teacher at school and people can very easily adopt their, you know, head in sand position...
[00:15:51] Hattie Hlad: Absolutely.
[00:15:52] Beverley Bell: ...or rabbit in the headlights and think, Oh, what do I do? And can think, oh, well, I'll worry about it tomorrow, by which time it's too late. So we try and make sure that people, if they are in that situation, that they can come to us and we can say, it's all right, we don't panic, it's okay, we'll sort it, or we'll say, this is what you do to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place. So that was where it was, you know, born from. So I do get the shoes and the handbags, but the holidays are maybe not as many as I would like them to have been.
[00:16:22] Hattie Hlad: Now, in the same year, we see you were awarded a CBE, which is one of the most prestigious awards you could receive. So congratulations, firstly, for that.
[00:16:29] Beverley Bell: Thank you.
[00:16:30] Hattie Hlad: Can you talk us through that moment? How did that feel?
[00:16:33] Beverley Bell: I don't talk about this very often. The first thing I've learned to do is curtsy and walk backwards. . That was really useful, especially in a pair of Jimmy Choo high heel shoes.
[00:16:42] Hattie Hlad: Amazing.
[00:16:43] Beverley Bell: When the envelope comes through the post, you think it's a windup because it has, you know, the crest on and then you open it and think, oh gosh, and then you're not allowed to tell anybody.
[00:16:52] Hattie Hlad: Oh aren't you? Ok.
[00:16:52] Beverley Bell: No not allowed to tell anybody. So then they say, well, actually you can tell very close family members. So I told my children, I told my ex husband, because we're still, you know, very good friends, and I said to each of them, you know, to my children, you mustn't tell Daddy, and I said to Daddy, you mustn't tell the children, and they didn't. But I didn't tell my mother because I knew if I told my mother, she'd tell the hairdresser, and before you knew where you were, the world would know. In terms of the day itself, it was terrifying, that's the only word I can use to describe it. But a real honour, because it was the Queen who gave out the awards and that's very rare. We had a great time afterwards. I can't remember some of it, I will confess. We went out for lunch, I had a big sort of party of people for lunch and we had a superb time. In terms of what it meant, people say, you know, what do you get the CBE for? And I got it for services to road safety in the freight industry, and that's what means a lot to me. So, yes, it was my proudest day in, day four it is. Day one was getting married, day two was first child, day three was second, and day four was the CBE. So, yes, it was marvellous.
[00:18:03] Hattie Hlad: That does sound incredible. Now we know you have your consultancy business, and from our research we know you're affiliated in the role of Vice President for the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport. But we can see how multifaceted you are. What else is on the cars for Beverley and Road Safety?
[00:18:21] Beverley Bell: Yes, I mean, Chartered Institutes of Logistics and Transport is a bit of a mouthful, isn't it?
[00:18:25] Hattie Hlad: It is.
[00:18:25] Beverley Bell: It would be nice if it had a much snappier name. The CILT work, I think, is really important because it's a membership organisation and that brings together individuals who have a myriad of jobs and it's not corporate and that's its real strength because it's all about, how can I learn from these people? I take part in the mentoring programme, so I like to mentor young people who are coming into the industry or the sector, but I learn more from them than they learn from me, I think, so I love it, love doing it and the other thing I did was, Think Logistics, which is promoting transport and logistics as a career of choice to young people. Now, I'm not young, I'm 63 and I'm 64 in December, although I look in the mirror and a 23 year old is in my mind, a 63 year old lady who looks like my mother's looking back at me.
[00:19:12] Hattie Hlad: Well, you still look great!
[00:19:13] Beverley Bell: Oh, thank why I was saying, but the point is, young people aren't going to listen to me. They're going to listen to people your age, with your experiences, and so, the Think Logistics piece is all about young people going into the industry and then telling other people how great it is, because people don't go into the transport industry, as that guy said, I wasn't born with the DVSA guide. Neither are they born going, I know what I'll do, I'll work in transport. They want to do anything but work in transport, but once they're in it, they love it. So that is for me, as important as the work I do either as a consultant or I did as a traffic commissioner. In terms of road safety, I think it's, for me, it's just business as usual. In a way, the consulting work is no different from the commissioner work because what you're doing is you're putting people back on the road to compliance, the difference is, as a commissioner, if you ask, people say yes. They don't generally say no. If you ask as a consultant or advise as a consultant, it's up to them whether they choose to do it or not. But most people who come to us do listen and do take on board the advice. So what else is on the cards? Well, I'm 63 now and I'll probably go till I'm 70.
[00:20:34] Hattie Hlad: Then loads of holidays.
[00:20:35] Beverley Bell: I get, and then have loads of holidays and then I think it's just more of the same, although I have recently become a grandmother.
[00:20:44] Hattie Hlad: Congratulations. That's so exciting.
[00:20:46] Beverley Bell: It is! So maybe a bit more time with the family at some stage.
[00:20:51] Hattie Hlad: Well deserved.
[00:20:52] Beverley Bell: Thank you.
[00:20:53] Hattie Hlad: We ask all of our interviewees to leave our listeners with a golden nugget of information or education, something that they can end the podcast and think, well, I didn't know that. So, with all of your experience, what piece of road safety advice can you share with our listeners that might be new information to them?
[00:21:10] Beverley Bell: It's not a piece of information because the law's changing all the time, guidance is changing all the time. It's really a sort of little principle which I quite like and again we talk about it in our work. So, for example, I know that the DVSA guide has been amended in April, I know that the commissioners are changing the way they look at roll over rate tests, but it's not about those individual things. It's what we call ABC, and it's what the police use when they're doing an investigation. Assume nothing, Believe nobody, and Check everything, and I think if you follow that in whatever work you do, then people won't go far wrong. Don't assume that something's been done. Don't assume that person can do the job when they tell you they can. Actually check that they can and believe nobody. People don't generally set out to lie, but there was an article on the radio this morning when I was driving up about little lies we tell ourselves every day. So my little lie might be Oh, I don't know, today, I'm not going to eat chocolate, I'm full of good intention, but then I think, oh, I'll just have that twirl chocolate bar on the way home. But it's not a deliberate lie. So people don't deliberately lie, but sometimes they're a bit economical with the truth and so when people say they've done things. Don't automatically believe them. I used to say to my children, Edward, when he was four or five, have you cleaned your teeth, son? Yes, Mummy. Go and get me the toothbrush. Well, I was just going to do it, Mummy. So don't make that assumption. Don't believe them when they automatically say they have, and check. And for me, the checking is really important. When they say they've done it, say, okay, show me and I think if you follow that in your work, you won't go really.
[00:23:02] Hattie Hlad: Too far wrong.
[00:23:02] Beverley Bell: Far wrong. and not, just work, but in life generally, really. But what do I know? I'm just, I don't know...
[00:23:08] Hattie Hlad: A woman with lots and lots of experience. So thank you for sharing that. It's great advice.
[00:23:12] Beverley Bell: A pleasure.
[00:23:13] Hattie Hlad: Thank you Beverley, for giving us a fascinating insight into your extensive career. Hearing about the barriers Beverley has needed to overcome certainly highlights the growth across the sector in recent years.
I really enjoyed our conversation and I will certainly be using Beverley's advice around the ABC principles in the future. Thanks for tuning into this episode of Driven by Excellence. We hope you enjoyed listening and if you did, please don't forget to click that follow button, leave us a review or share this episode with a colleague. For more information and to keep up to date with industry news, head to our website pdtfleettrainingsolutions.co.uk