Chapter + Verse

What is Chapter + Verse?

A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.

Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
come on and tell their real stories,

faith, failure, redemption, and the
occasional, "Lord, what are you doing?"

moment.

Some inspiring, some messy,
and some that probably should

have come with a warning label.

Because through every chapter of
every story, God is still writing.

And He's not afraid of a little chaos.

This is Jill.

And Carrie.

Let's turn the page.

. Well, we're here with our
good friend, Brandon Motley.

Um, he'sâ¦

Where, where, where are
you originally from, like?

I'm originally from here, Russellville.

Where are your kids?

Uh, well, my oldest is still back home.

He's, uh, he spent the night with some
friends and, but he's doing a, uh, he's

been doing a lot of theater acting.

I don't know if y'all kept up- Yeah.

Yes â¦ with that.

Um, they've got aâ¦

Up there in Harrison, they have a, uh, a
little, like, old time theater up there.

Um, they don't use, like,
microphones or anything.

Yeah.

It's all, like, stage acting.

Oh, nice.

I didn't know they didn't use microphones.

Yeah.

And he's, he's really gotten into
the, uh, into the theater acting.

Um, they're fixing to do one
called Peter and the Starcatcher.

It's about the, the story of
Peter Pan, his early days.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, okay.

And, uh, so he's gonna be
playing- Oh, I wanna come see it

yeah, he's playing, uh, Captain Hook
before he's called Captain Hook.

Nice.

We need to go see it.

Yeah.

Before that he did, um,
he did Mary Poppins.

Um, he did that one.

He really enjoyed that one.

And then, um, last Christmas they
did, uh, um, Chronicles of Narnia:

The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Oh, fun.

Yeah, so he's, he's, he's really getting
into that, so I don't know if he, I

don't know if he got that from, you know,
my old- Oh, from you â¦ my old days.

Yeah, but- Yeah.

Well, you're an actor â¦ uh, but
yeah, he, he, uh, yeah, he, he

does that and he's into the music.

So he's playing bass
guitar now and everything.

Yeah, I saw that too.

So, yeah, he's, he's-
Wow â¦ he's like that.

And then Grant was my sports kid.

He, he takes directly after me, you
know, being the athletic one and- Yeah

â¦ being into all that, so he enjoys that.

And then my daughter just
does anything and everything.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

She's kind of a jack of all trades.

Yeah.

If she has fun with it- She got-

she likes to do it.

She got both.

Yeah.

She's like, "I'm into this."

With her, with her mom's attitude, so.

So she's perfect- â¦ is
what you're saying.

Yeah.

I meant that in a good way, Kristen.

I know.

Like, perfect- Yes â¦ like,
uh, there, she can do no wrong.

Mm-hmm.

It'sâ¦

She's wonderful.

Yeah.

She is.

You know.

She's really awesome.

She got all the greatest parts.

Yep.

We'll probably take some of that
and put it in this so we can hear.

Yeah.

If you don't care.

No, that's fine.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

We're here with Brandon Motley,
um, originally from Russellville.

Lives in Harrison now,
and we just wannaâ¦

I mean, we've known you, I don't
know how long we've known you.

Long time.

Yeah.

Um, but we just wanna hear part
of your story and, um, I know,

I mean, you've played one of
our Jesuses in the Passion Play.

Um, first of all, I would love to
hear, how did that all come about?

What, how did you first start
coming to First Assembly and-

Yeah â¦ like, just tell me about
your experience with our Passion Play.

Yeah.

So, uh, I didn't, I
didn't grow up in church.

Um, we were, my, my mom and dad, my
dad comes from Assembly of Gods, um,

and then my mom was, grew up Baptist.

Sorry.

No, that's fine.

Um, and but, yeah, we just, we
didn't grow up going to church.

Um, and then when I was about 11,
12 years old, we had a really nice

family that moved in behind us,
um, the Randy and Susan Campbell.

Oh.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, and
they're, they had justâ¦

Rachel, their oldest daughter,
Rachel, was only, oh, gosh,

she was probably three maybe.

Mm-hmm.

Three or four years old.

Man.

Um, and, uh, and then we were
living with my grandparents at

the time in that house as well, so
we all just kinda lived together.

And, uh, yeah, they built a house
right behind us, and we became

really good friends with them, uh,
really good neighbors, and they were,

they, they were always really nice.

Mm-hmm.

They came over.

My grandmother would always make 'em
cookies and cakes and stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and, uh, and during the summertime
I would, like, mow Randy's yard and do,

you know- Mm-hmm â¦ kinda work for him.

And, and then he had a, he had a
basketball goal in his driveway, and

so I'd go over there- Say no more.

and shoot and shoot baskets all the time.

Yeah.

You know, just being a kid.

Yeah.

No, they, they became really good
friends, and, um, uh, and they started

bringing me to youth on Wednesday nights-
Mm-hmm â¦ at, at Russellville First.

And, uh, 'causeâ¦

And Randy was involved at the,
with the church band at the time.

He played the drums.

Yeah.

And so they were, they
were here all the time.

Yeah.

And, uh, and so yeah, I started coming
on Wednesdays with them, and then

I just started coming on Sundays.

And so I just, Russellville First
kind of became my home church.

Okay.

And, uh- Wow.

Yeah, and I started, uh, yeah,
I started being involved in the

passion play at a really young age.

And, uh- Who was the youth pastor at the
time when you- It was Randy McKinney.

Yes.

Yeah.

I love him.

Yeah.

Randy McKinney was the
youth pastor at the time.

And- What was your first, like- role that
wasn't shopper- Uh, so- â¦ in the play?

Yeah, so I was actually Bar-
Like, did you go from shopper

to Jesus, like straight there?

Yeah, no.

No, no, no, no.

So the, the, the, yeah, so the,
the first year I was in it I was

obviously like in the town scene.

Yeah.

I think that's kinda how everybody-
Yeah, yep â¦ starts out.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, you kinda
gotta work your way up.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I was, I was
in that the very first year.

Then the next year I
was actually Barabbas.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I was only, like, 14.

Oh, wow.

Nice.

So I was like, yeah, I was really,
I was like really, really young.

Yeah.

So.

Were you so excited?

Yeah, it was kinda cool, you know?

Yeah.

You get to be wild a little bit.

Yeah.

I, I- Mm-hmm â¦ yeah, you
know, you get to spit and do

all that fun stuff, you know?

Yep.

Um, but yeah, it was a,
so they, they kindaâ¦

And it was, it's weird, like all
the, all the, uh, parts that I ever

had leading up to playing Jesus,
they kinda just threw me in there.

They were kinda like, "Yeah, we're
just gonna put you in there."

Yeah, yeah.

So they were like, "Hey,
we need a Barabbas.

You know, you're young and
kinda, you know, kinda- Mm-hmm

spunky.

You know, just get up there
and- Yeah â¦ get after it."

Yeah.

So I did that for one year, and then the
next year, uh, you know, we had the, the

cast meeting and everything like that.

Mm-hmm.

And I was, you know, fully prepared
to play Barabbas again, and I

was like- Mm-hmm â¦ "Cool."

Well, they bring the cast list out.

Well, then they've got me as a
disciple- Okay â¦ that year.

Yeah.

So I was like, at 15 I was a disciple.

Yeah.

So, and you could, you could
really tell, too- â¦ 'cause I was

like the youngest dude up there.

Everybody else is, like-
Yeah â¦ 20 years old.

Yeah.

And there's this little kid up there that-
â¦ you know, it's like he looks out of place.

And, but, uh, but yeah, so
I was a disciple all the

way up until I played Jesus.

Okay.

Um, and then so I w- that's how
I kinda really got to know Matt.

You know- Mm-hmm â¦ Matt and I became
really, really close, and- Yeah â¦ you

know, he was always kinda like a big
brother to me- Mm-hmm â¦ and everything.

And then, um, yeah, and I think it was
in 2006, um, right that year, going

into, going into '06, uh, the directors
at the time, they, they came to me, it

was like around the summertime, and they
were like, "Hey, what do you think about

playing a different role this year?"

And I was like- â¦ "Well, what,
what, what else is there to play?"

I was like, "I'm not big- Yeah
â¦ enough to be a soldier," you know?

Like- Yeah.

It's like, what el- you know, I
didn't know what they had in mind.

They were like, "Well, what do
you think about playing Jesus?"

And I was like, "Whoa.

Are, are you serious?"

Who was the director then?

It was, well, it was Randy Campbell.

Okay.

And then it was Mitch
Ellenburg, were both- Okay.

They were kinda like- Were
they working together?

Yeah â¦ co-directors at the time.

Yeah.

Yeah, they were, they were
doing it kind of both together.

And then I think there wa- uh, I think
there was a couple other people that were

kinda like helping on the side- Mm-hmm

too that year.

But- Uh, but yeah, they said, uh, they're
like, "Yeah, you wanna play Jesus."

And I was like, "Well, like,
what's Matt think about that?"

And they're like, "Oh, well,
it's not really planned.

Like, you're gonna be the understudy."

Mm-hmm.

Like, we've never had somebody
that could, like, fill in for Matt-

Yeah â¦ if he, like, got hurt- Yeah

or, you know, sick or, you
know, something like that.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I was like, "All right.

Well, let me think about it."

Well, as soon as I got off the phone with
them, first person I called was Matt.

Yeah.

And I said, "Hey," I said,
"Are you, you cool with this?"

And he's like, "Oh yeah, it was my idea."

Think he was kind of, like, seeing
he wanted to kind of phase out maybe.

I think so.

I think he's, I think he saw that his,
he was getting to that point where,

you know, I can't- Well, it's a lot.

It's a physical thing.

I can't- Yeah.

It's a lot.

Yeah, I c- he's like, "I think, I can't
do it forever, man," you know, like- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ "You need to, this'll
be a good thing," you know?

Yeah.

And he said, "And it, and it, and
it's not g- it's not like you're

gonna be taking over immediately."

Mm-hmm.

He's like, "I've still
got a few more years."

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, we, we went into
that year, and I, you know,

grew my hair out a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

Grew a nice big bushy beard.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, became the understudy.

And, and honestly, that was
actually one of the most fun

years of the play that I ever had.

Wow.

It was just r- 'cause it, you know,
I got to be a part of it still.

I was kinda on the backside a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't get to be on the
stage the entire time.

But it was, it was really fun, um, just
getting to learn, which I, I knew most

of the part already anyway 'cause I was-
Yeah â¦ you're up on the stage with Matt.

Yes.

You know where he has to be, a-
all, you know, you pretty much

know everything that's going on.

Yeah.

So- That was, that was a really fun
year and, uh, had a really good time.

And then I actually got to, uhâ¦

That was when we used
to do it two weekends.

Do you remember that?

Yes, I do.

We, we used to do it the weekend before
Easter and then the weekend- Mm-hmm

of Easter.

Right.

So there was, like, seven performances.

There was a lot.

Plus, plus- Yeah, plus during
the week â¦ plus w- and that

year we had two dress rehearsals.

They had a dress rehearsal for Matt, and
then they had a dress rehearsal for me.

Wow.

Yeah.

So- I mean, that's nice.

Yeah.

That way, you know, should you
have to step in- Well, and so

I was fixing to get to that.

Yeah.

So they, I, I thought, I'm, I'm just
here in case they need me, right?

Yeah.

Well, going into the first week,
they're like, "Hey, we want you to do

one of the performances this year."

And I'm like, "Okay, cool."

So I'm thinking like, "Yeah, well
I'll get, you know, I'll get one

of the later ones or something."

"Uh, no.

By the way, you're doing the very
first Friday night performance."

And those are- Whoa â¦ those
were big nights.

Those, the Friday night
performances are huge.

Yeah.

They're, they're, they're
almost always full.

Yes.

I don't know if they're like that now.

Yeah.

It's usually always full.

It's usually the weekends that are
more- Yeah â¦ yeah, more people.

Sun- Saturday and Sundays are, you know,
you got a little bit of wiggle room.

Yeah.

Not as many.

But Friday nights- Yeah â¦ was
always packed back in the day.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I'm like, "Wow, thanks for
just throwing that on me."

Yeah.

Well, it's the best way
to do it, you know that.

Yeah, you just- But you can't
freak out for months, you know.

It's sink or swim.

Yeah.

You know, th- throw you in
the deep end- Like, okay

of the pool and, and-
Yeah â¦ it's what we're doing now.

Yeah.

We'll do it or we won't.

Yeah.

So yeah, I did a, I did one of the
dress rehearsals, and then I did

that first Friday night performance.

Man.

And it was, uh, it was, it was
really awesome, really fun.

And then, uh, we got through
that year and, uh, and then we

come around to the next year,
and Matt's like, "Sayonara, dude.

It's all you."

Oh.

So that couple of years he said-
You were like, "Couple of years?

What?"

He, he was just baiting you.

Yeah.

I think that's what it was.

Yeah.

And so yeah, I took over in, took over
in '07, and I did it from '07 to '17.

So I did it for 10 years.

10 years.

Wow.

I didn't realize it was that long.

I guess- Mm-hmm

you know, just time is, has flies.

I mean, it's- Yeah â¦ like you, Blake,
and it's been- Well, I remember you

were the f- like, Ben and I, you know,
we came to Russellville in '06 I think.

Um, but we weren't super involved
in- Russellville First Assembly.

Like we, 'cause, you know, we lived
in northwest Arkansas for a little

bit, so we spent a little bit of time
that first year going back and- Yeah

doing our best to live in both
places, but it didn't work out.

And, um, so you are actually
the first Jesus that we saw.

Like, I mean, I think Ben had seen
Matt, you know, 'cause he grew up here,

but, um- That worked with probably.

But yeah, like- Yeah â¦ and I say, like-
It was crazy â¦ the first Jesus you work

with just, it's not like you don't like
the rest of the Jesuses, but you got,

you just have that special- It's like
you have a special little connection.

You're like, "Nope, that's Jesus.

That's the one."

Like, and I've asked several people,
like different ages- Mm-hmm â¦ which

Jesus have you liked the best?

We've had four, you know?

Yeah.

And, um, and I, when they tell
me, I'm like, "Was that your

first experience with Jesus?"

Like, the Passion Play.

And they're like, "Yeah."

It's just something about it.

Every time.

Yeah.

Every time.

Yeah.

So, like, yeah.

And I'm sure, I'm sure there's people
that felt that way about Matt as well.

Oh, yeah.

You know, 'cause he, he actually
did it longer than I did.

He did it for, like- Yeah,
we â¦ almost 12 years.

Yeah.

You know?

And then, and then I'm sure there's
people that feel that way about, uh- Kyle

Kyle and- Matt and Pierce,
yeah â¦ and Pierce.

Mm-hmm, yep.

You know?

So yeah, I mean, you, you
develop a lot of, uhâ¦

And that's one thing that I really always
loved about the play, especially, like,

getting to know new people in the church.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it gave you a way to really
get to know those people.

Yeah.

Be around them, you know- Yep â¦ behind
the scenes and stuff like that.

Yeah.

And you get to kinda hear their stories
and, um, but yeah, y- and, and it's, it's

funny, when we, when I was down here for
Christmas- Mm-hmm â¦ we were sitting down

there in the, in the little green room,
you know- Mm-hmm â¦ waiting or whatever.

Yeah.

And, uh, Maggie Duvall came up to me
and was like, "Hey, I remember, you

know, when you used to give me the
bread as a little kid," you know?

And I'm like, "Yeah, you're making
me feel old now-" Exactly â¦ 'cause

you're, you're married.

Thanks, Maggie.

You just got married, and, you know-
Yes â¦ y- you're, you're really

making me feel old here, Maggie.

Don't, don't talk about that.

Yeah, but Maggie and Tinley, I
asked them, like, Christmas, I was

like, "What's your favorite Jesus?"

And they both, "Brandon."

Yeah.

And I was like, "Was that the first
experience that you had withâ¦"

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I'm like, "And that's why, because
you just make a connection with them."

Mm-hmm.

They, I mean, whether you like it
or not, people view you as him.

Yeah.

And it's, it's like The Chosen.

When you watch The Chosen- Yep â¦ and
you see this guy play in some other

movie, you're like, "Oh, that's not him."

Yeah, that's not him.

Yeah, no, exactly.

So- Like, what are you doing?

Yeah.

Stop doing that.

But did you ever, like- Um, I
wanna talk about getting hurt,

'cause it obviously- Oh my gosh

there's a very physical part to that.

So what was your experience and if you
know some of Matt's, 'cause you were-

Oh, yeah â¦ obviously watching him.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

I know people ask that all the
time, does Jesus ever get hurt?

And I'm always like, "Yeah, but I don't
really know all the details of that."

I c- I can't speak for
Kyle and Pierce, but- Yeah

I know I can speak for me and Matt.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause Matt and I, we- Mm-hmm â¦ we've
sat and shared many stories.

Yeah.

I think he probably got
hurt way more than I did.

Really?

Uh, yeah.

Uh, just 'cause, uh, he did it prior to
a lot of the way that they do it now.

The protection.

The, yeah.

Yeah.

You know, there's a- Yeah

protective vest you wear.

Yeah.

And, uh, so he did it
before they had all that.

Do you know how old he
was when they started?

Was he- I think he was, like, 18 or 19.

I thought he was a teenager, yeah.

I had just- Yeah â¦ turned
20 when I took over.

That's wild.

So yeah, it wasâ¦

Yeah, I mean, I was, I, we were
both really, really young- Yeah

when we took over.

Um- Well, you gotta be.

You can't, you can't be- Yeah â¦ uh,
I don't, I- You can be too young.

But you could, because it- Yeah.

Maybe.

Now with the protections and stuff.

Yeah.

But no, uh, nothing ever, like,
nothing ever, like, reallyâ¦

So you get bumps and bruises, obviously-
Mm-hmm, yeah â¦ just 'cause of

the, the choreography, especially,
like, with the beating scene.

It, it's almost impossible to
not, uh, be a little roughed up.

Yeah.

You know?

I mean, you got- Well,
you get thrown around.

You get tossed on the carpet.

Yeah.

You get carpet burn.

Yeah, I'm, I'm- You know,
like, there's stuff that

happens â¦ I'm 175, 180 pounds.

I'm getting thrown around by four-
Yeah â¦ five 250-pound guys.

I mean, it's gonna- Exactly.

It's gonna happen.

Who was the roughest, like?

The roughest?

Oh.

So I know K- we had Kelly.

Of course, he's passed away
now, but- Well, that, yeah,

that's the thing about Kelly.

Kelly was alway- Kelly always
made it look like he was being

rough, but he actually wasn't.

Okay.

He w- he was actually- But
he knew what he was doing

him and, him and- Yeah â¦ him
and Wendell were both really,

really good about keeping me safe.

Yeah.

Um, usually if, if I did get hurt,
it was always because it was, like,

a new guy- Mm-hmm â¦ and he was
being a little rough, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I don't â¦ And, and there were
so many through those years,

it's hard to really- Yeah, yeah

you know- Pinpoint â¦ keep
up, pinpoint one.

Yeah.

But, uh, the, the two constant ones that
always kind of looked out for me and

kept me safe were Wendell and Kelly.

They were bo- Mm-hmm, yeah.

'Cause they were both the
most experienced ones.

But- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ but there were some other
good guy- there were some other guys

that did really good at it, too.

Mm-hmm.

But, uh, you know, stuff happens.

Mm-hmm.

And I, and, you know, I never took
it personal or anything like that.

Yeah.

Now, I'm not gonna say I didn't, you
know, trash talk 'em a little bit during.

Well, you know.

'Cause you kinda- Like, while
they're in the performance,

like- Oh, yeah â¦ you would say.

What would you say?

Yeah, so, you know, after they get done,
after they get done doing the beating

scene, you know, you go back, they
go back up- Yeah â¦ to Pilates Hall.

Mm-hmm.

And, and Kelly and Wendell were
always the ones that were up there

right next to me and holding me.

Mm-hmm.

At first it was Kelly, and then, you
know, obviously he passed away, and

then Wendell took over that spot.

But yeah, they â¦ What you don't
really see is they would always â¦ We'd

be standing there kinda close by,
and he would, they would always

have my arm, like, right underneath
here, kinda hold- Mm-hmm â¦ like

they're holding me up, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And really all I'm doing is just sitting
there, kinda leaning on 'em and just- Yeah

you know, taking a break.

And 'cause that's- Yeah â¦ really
the only time you get to

really relax during that.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, they'd always- Catch a
breath â¦ kinda, but yeah, they'd

always kinda whisper, "Hey, are you good?

Everything okay?"

Mm-hmm.

And that's when I'd kinda lean in and
say, you know, "You hit like a girl."

You need to kick a
little harder, you know?

Like, is that all you got?

You know, stuff like that.

Yeah.

Uh, and, uh- Yeah â¦ and
they go, "Oh, okay.

Okay."

Yeah.

That's funny.

So what happened with Matt?

Like, didn't he get aâ¦

Did he crack a rib or something?

I can't remember.

Heâ¦

Yeah, he's had- I feel like he's
had some broken ribs and- Yeah.

The, theâ¦

Yeah, I mean, the getting hit, and
so it's stuff like that happens.

Uh, the one, the one that
I really remember the most

was his last year as Jesus.

Um, he got kicked in the head-
Oh â¦ by, uh, Dale Burgess.

Y'all remember the Burgesses?

Yes.

Dale was one that wasâ¦

He was, he wasâ¦

He's a, he's a farm boy.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Like, he is strong.

Yeah.

And when he threw you or
did something, you felt it.

Yeah.

And so, um, but yeah, they, they
accidentally kicked him in the head

and, and the, the, uh, the shin
guards that the- Mm-hmm â¦ soldiers

wear had these little decorative
metal flowers on the top of them.

Oh.

Yeah.

And it, it was, like,
imprinted in Matt's head.

Oh.

You could see it.

Oh, no.

'Cause I guess his hand, like, came down
or something- Mm-hmm â¦ and it just

caught him and, and yeah, at the end of
it you could s- you could see it right

there in the middle of his forehead.

Oh, poor Matt.

That's great.

Oh, we need to have Matt on.

We do.

You do.

We do.

Matt, Matt has some, Matt
has some great stories.

Yeah.

That, that, that's the, that's
the fun thing about the plays.

Editing'll be tricky with Matt, though.

Yeah.

Yep.

True.

Love him, though.

What, what do y'all wanna talk about?

Exactly.

Like, we'd have to slow
us down or speed him up.

Speed him up.

Yeah.

It'd be great.

Um, but yeah, I mean, heâ¦

Yeah, I think, I think he
cracked a rib or something.

Yeah.

And he got, he'sâ¦

We both got knocked out.

I was gonna say, word on the street is
you had a concussion a couple times maybe.

Probably wouldn't diagnose
concussion- Okay â¦ but it was-

Yeah â¦ more than likely, yeah.

Like, clinically, yeah.

You actually blacked out
and you- Oh, I was out.

100% out.

Whatâ¦

And then what did they do?

Like- Throw me around.

Oh, God.

They just kinda keep on- So what,
so what happened that year wasâ¦

And I don't remember what year it was.

That's how, that's how long ago it was.

I feel like Ben was playing Satan, 'cause
I, I remember- He was â¦ there was a

year that Ben was, was Satan, and he
came off, you know, after he does his

whole like, "Ha ha," you know, whatever.

Like- Mm â¦ "Stay down,"
or, "Don't get up."

I don't remember what he says.

But um, he came off the, the
stage, and he looked at me and

he goes, "Brandon's in trouble."

Oh, no.

And I was like, "What?"

And he goes, "He just went ragdoll."

I was like, "Oh."

So what happened?

So there w- Thereâ¦

At the beginning of it, I got thrown, and
they would, they would always do, like,

a big kick and stomp me and, and- Mm-hmm

they would beat up on me a little bit.

Well, then we used to do, we
called it the soccer kick.

Mm-hmm.

And they wouldâ¦

One of them would come up and pick me
up and I'd have my hands like this.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And they would pick me up and
run up, and a lotta the times it

would just glance, like, off my
arm, but it, from the st- from the

audience perspective, it looks real.

Mm-hmm.

Like, it looks like they're
really kicking me in the head.

Yeah.

Well, when they went to pull me
up, they pulled me up too fast and

my hand came down, and m- Who, I
don't remember who it was, but they,

they came through there Delirious.

It could, it could have been one of them.

It was, it was one of them, but yeah, they
kicked me right in the head and I wasâ¦

I mean, I, I don't, I wasn'tâ¦

Wendell says I wasn't, like, completely
out- Oh, wow â¦ 'cause my eyes

were still open, but it was the
lights were on but nobody was home.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Ben said he, he was like full rag doll.

Yeah.

Just- Yeah â¦ just loose and Yeah.

And then- Oh, goodness gracious And
when I ca- when I came, I came to when

they started whipping me on the post.

That was when I was like- Yeah.

They just kinda picked him up and
carried him around and- How did

we, I was like, "How did we get,
how did we get to this point?"

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't remember
getting to this point.

Yeah.

And made it through that scene, and
then I guess they, uh, they had somebody

come back and look at me real fast.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

I don't remember who it was, but
somebody came back, uh, uh, maybe it

was, like, Denver Busby or somebody.

Well, yeah, 'cause she- She's a
nurse, yeah â¦ she ran, well, she's

a nurse and she was on spotlights.

Yeah.

So she'd be right up there- Yeah â¦ to,
like- I, they had somebody- â¦ have a

quick look too â¦ come back and check
me real quick and, and of course I made

it, made it through the performance,
and then afterwards I was in the back.

And I do remember her coming up and she's
like, "I need to look at your eyes and

make sure that you don't- Yeah â¦ have
a concussion or anything like that."

Yeah.

And I was like, "Yeah, I'm good."

That there was not something
more serious happening.

Yeah.

But yeah, that, and then, uh, honestly,
I think the worst thing was just the whip

stuff, like getting hit with the whip.

I've had cuts and stuff- Yeah â¦ all
through here, you know, on this

side where, where it's not really
protected- Yeah â¦ before.

Yeah, and here's your- It comes all the
way around â¦ you're our only Jesus that,

you know, agreed to not have a shirt on.

So did you haveâ¦

I can't even remember.

Did you have padding on then or no?

Well, I, I did for the,
the main whipping scene.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But when we did the Via Dolorosa scene-
Yeah, you take it off then â¦ yeah, I had

the, you know, the nothing on underneath.

Yeah.

You know, all that.

Yeah.

So, uh, yeah.

Which was more realistic, I mean.

It was.

Yeah, yeah.

That was what we were, that was
what we were going for at the time.

I w- Was that your idea?

That was my idea, yeah.

Okay.

I, I wanted, I wanted it to
be as realistic as possible.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think that's a powerful scene.

It is.

Yeah.

You know?

It, it really is.

Well, it's humiliating, you know?

Yeah.

You know, and it's humiliating to
think about what he went through

because, you know, he hadâ¦

He was naked.

He was, he had no clothes.

Yeah.

And that- that's like, when
I think about that, I'm just

like, "That's so humiliating."

Like- Yeah â¦ to be beaten- It was-
â¦ and spit on and- It was done on purpose.

Yeah.

Like, that was the point-
Yeah â¦ was to humiliate.

Yeah, so I mean, I know, like, I
understand why the others haven't

done it 'cause it is- It hurts

you're vulnerable.

Yeah, and youâ¦

It hurts.

Yeah.

One of the worst hits I ever
took was, was from Wendell.

We were doing that scene, and, uh,
one thing we always kind of agreed

on was that they were gonna hit me,
like, between the shoulder blades.

Mm-hmm.

Or try to anyway.

Yeah.

'Cause that's the,
that's the- The toughest-

the toughest spot- â¦ muscle,
yeah â¦ to, to take.

If you're gonna take one of
those hits- Yeah â¦ right there

directly in the center of the
back is where you need to take it.

Okay.

And it doesn'tâ¦

It hurts, but it doesn't hurt as bad.

Yeah.

Oh.

And we were w- we were going down one
night, and I f- came down at the end of

the, of the walkway there, and I fell.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and they hit me back there.

As choreographed, yeah.

As choreographed.

And I start to get back up- And
as I lifted the crossbeam back up,

my, my right arm came up, so like
my whole right side is exposed.

Oh.

Oh, no.

And I don't know what
happened, but next thing Iâ¦

Wendell brought that whip around
and it caught me just right here.

Oh.

And it was like a pa- And I, I literally
thought my soul had left my body.

Oh.

Oh, gosh.

Oh, and that's just a tiny taste.

And it was- It gives you pea
shivers â¦ and it, and it

sounded like a shotgun going off.

I mean, that's- Yeah â¦ how loud it was.

And- Did Wendell know
as soon as he did that?

Like, "Oh, I'm-" Oh, I'm sure he did.

Yeah.

I never really, I never really like
asked him about it afterwards, but-

Yeah â¦ you know, I think it was, I'm
sure everybody kind of was like, "Ugh."

Yeah.

Yeah, like, "Ugh."

And but you look out in the crowd
and people are just mortified.

Yeah.

You know?

And that's the reaction
that you want out of them.

Yeah.

You want them toâ¦

'Cause I mean, they're
sitting right there.

Yeah.

You know?

They know you got hit.

Yeah, they know.

Yeah.

I mean, there's no faking that.

Yeah.

And that's an up close and personal scene.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I like that they put that right in your
face because it is just, it's awful.

That's not even a fraction
of what it really was.

Yeah.

But- Yeah â¦ and I know, I think Loretta
has gotten hit- Loretta has been hit-

Oh â¦ a couple of times â¦ because
she was right there- Mm-hmm â¦ most

of the time and- Mm-hmm â¦ during that
walkthrough, and I know she's gotten hit.

Anybody's fair game in that-
Yeah â¦ in that scene.

Yeah.

I never got that close.

I was like, "Ooh, don't wanna be hit."

Nope.

I've always been behind the scenes.

I've never, ever dressed out.

Yeah, no.

That's crazy.

I know.

You should.

You should do it one year.

You should.

Why?

Next year.

What am I gonna do?

Just be a shopper?

Yeah.

Come help me sell my oils next year.

No, thank you.

You know, I'm- I'll work
on that â¦ super happy.

Like, listen, I baked the bread this year.

Listen- I'm happy â¦ you
did â¦ I'm happy about it.

But- I'll be fine â¦ usually, sometimes
we get in these little Let's make a deal.

If I'm right, you do this.

Oh, no.

That's what I'm gonna work on.

So y'all will know, if Jill
dresses out- It's hard to beâ¦

It isâ¦

Why would I say-

Carrie was right about something.

It's hard to be right all the
time with Jill, 'cause you're,

you know, you're really smart.

Well, so.

Hey, you know, but I look at it
this way, everybody has their

place- Yeah â¦ in all that.

Yes.

Yeah.

And you have a, you have probably
one of the most important-

I've done all kinds of stuff.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, for a little
bit I've, I washed you up

after- You did â¦ the thing.

I think for two years Melissa and I- Yeah
â¦ and Kristen, um, just, uh, I think

Melissa was like, "Will you do his feet?"

Yeah, so it's fine.

Okay.

So let- It was great â¦ let's talk about
Kristen because were you- Yeah â¦ married

when you started in- I was not, so the,
we got married the year after I started.

So- Were y'all dating or?

We were dating.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we, we met, we met here
at Tech, at Chi Alpha.

Mm-hmm.

And that's how we got to know each other,
and she's from up where we live at now.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, we met in college, and
she was actually dating a- another

guy at the time when we first met.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah.

And, uh, and we just became friends.

Mm-hmm.

Started hanging out at, through Chi Alpha
and- Mm-hmm â¦ and just kinda got- Yeah

â¦ to know each other and through all that.

And then we started dating the next year,
and we dated for pretty much the rest of

the time that we were in college together.

Okay.

How'd she feel about
you playing this part?

Was that hard on her?

Oh, she was, she was, she
was always good with it.

Yeah.

She never, she was, she would actually,
you know, kind of make fun of me when

I'd get, you know, hit or whatever.

She was like, "I bet
that hurt, didn't it?"

Like, "Look what you
signed up for, silly."

She, she is that, she
is that kind of wife.

She is like- Yeah â¦ she's like, "I'll
support you in whatever you do, but-

Yeah â¦ whatever punishment happens,
it's, it's your fault 'cause you-

Yeah, yeah â¦ 'cause you did it."

That's the kind of wife she is.

Yeah.

And, and that's, and that's really
what I, what I need in life.

Yeah.

I need somebody like that to-
Yeah â¦ to say- Good on you

"Hey, I'll support you, but, you
know, any, any punishment or pain

that happens, it's all on you."

Yeah.

She's gonna stand on business
no matter what it is.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, she was, she's always been,
she was always really supportive of it.

Mm-hmm.

And she, she, she was there for me
all the time, and always there in

the back waiting on me and- Yeah

cleaning me up and- Yeah.

Well, and then she, she also
did your makeup, like your-

Yes â¦ special effects stuff on this.

Yeah.

Yeah, later on- Kind of that for a
bit â¦ when we started doing that- Yeah

â¦ she would, she would do that, and-
Yeah â¦ that was very time-consuming.

Yeah.

We're talking, like, two ho- two
to three hours before- Mm-hmm.

Yes â¦ getting all that ready, so.

Yeah.

Yeah, I remember passing by.

Didn't y'all getâ¦

It was that little office.

It's across from my office now, but
like right when you come in the door-

Mm-hmm â¦ it used to be Judy's office.

Yep, it's right there on the right.

That's right.

Yeah, so I think we have a picture
somewhere of her doing your- Yeah

latex and stuff like that.

I mean, I just, Iâ¦

Listen, I know what it took for me to
learn how to do, like, Ben's makeup and

the horns and everything, and the fact
that she learned how to do all of that

and it was so realistic- Realistic,
yeah â¦ I was like, "Girl, props."

Yeah.

Like, way to go.

Yeah.

It was impressive.

It was a lot.

That, when we started doing that- It
added like, like I said, about two and

a half hours of extra time on top of
getting ready to- Yeah, on top of just

regular- Regular, yeah â¦ getting ready.

Mm-hmm.

What, there was no more just,
"Hey, come in, throw your

costume on and go out there."

It's- Exactly

I gotta sit down and have somebody
do all the painting for- Yeah â¦ two

hours or however- Yeah â¦ long it took.

Crazy.

So when you had, when you finally
realized that, "Well, I'm gonna have

to give it up 'cause we're moving"-
Mm â¦ that was the reason, right?

'Cause y'all had to move.

Yeah, so, uh, and, and, um,
w- the, the story I was gonna

kinda share with y'all- Yeah

I was trying to, uh, think of a really,
you know, good Passion Play story to

share- Mm-hmm â¦ of how, you know, how
it kind of affected my life and- Mm-hmm

â¦ like something good that happened.

W- which there was a lot of good
memories, and there was a lot of

good things, and you would hear
stories, you know, throughout the

entire, all those years that I did it.

Yeah.

People would come up to you and share
things with you and, um, but, uh, uh, but

I was gonna, you know, share something
that happened with me personally with

something that was going on in my life-
Mm-hmm â¦ during that time, and, uh,

it kinda helped change and shape me into
the person that I am now and kinda lead

me to the, the path that I'm on now.

Mm.

Okay.

Um, but yeah, I've, uh, yeah, in 2000, end
of 2015 going into '16, I changed careers.

Mm-hmm.

Went into law enforcement, and,
uh, and then eventually I, I got a

different job in law enforcement and
we had to move, and, uh, that was one

of the reason- that was the reason
why I had to, had to give it up.

I didn't, didn't really want to.

Yeah.

It was one of the, it was one of the
hardest decisions I ever had to make, but-

Yeah â¦ I knew I was, I was doing what I
was supposed to be doing, so- Yeah â¦ it,

uh, it all worked out, and we're in a,
we're in a great place in life right now.

Yeah.

I know you'reâ¦

I mean, I see the stuff she posts.

The, your land is absolutely beautiful.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, such a l- kind of like a
dream- Mm-hmm â¦ life, that-

Yeah â¦ when you're looking
through, you know, social medias.

Yeah.

But I'm just like, wow, y'all have got
such, I mean- You've just been blessed.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, like, having your kids grow
up- Like we used to grow up.

Like, you know, playing outside,
it just seems like that's- Yeah

that's the way to grow up kids.

Yeah.

You know, like- Yep â¦ away from,
not that they don't, you know, get

on social, or not social media,
but, you know, games and stuff.

But seeing them play outside, I
don't, it always does my heart

good to see kids playing outside.

Mm-hmm.

And it's just, uh, I like watching
your kids from what Kristen posts

and- She does a good job of it.

Yeah.

She does a really good job of,
of documenting everything and-

Yeah â¦ for, for memories.

Yeah, yeah.

She really does.

You can tell, like, there's such, like,
love and respect in your family and-

Mm-hmm â¦ and I know we're looking
through social media eyes, but it's a

genuine feeling when we talk to y'all, so.

Yeah.

But I mean, I'm, I just, I think the
four people that have played Jesus are

so unique in so many different ways.

And, you know, I know we brought this
out at Christmas, but, like, when I was

thinking about doing the Christmas thing,
God started pointing out, like, each of

these men have different characters of me.

You know, like, characteristics of me.

And, um, like, we do kind of view
you- Yeah â¦ as the, the powerful.

And I, I say turbo and I was like,
"Well, it's not really turbo."

It's like MMA.

Yeah.

It's, it's like- Tap, like Jesus
gonna stand up â¦ turbo Jesus.

Fighter Jesus.

Yeah.

I mean, that's your name
in my phone is turbo.

Fighter Jesus, protector Jesus.

Yes.

Like, and- And that's y- that's what,
when I think back to the feelings I got

looking at, through every performance
of each of y'all, that's the feelings

that come out is- Yeah â¦ like,
this Jesus is gonna protect you.

You know, and, um, I don't know.

So y'all are four unique people because
not many people get to play this part.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And the experience is, you're right,
people talk about this all year.

Um, not just our church, but, like,
people, they know, they know about this

play, and they've had- People in the
community and- But then again, I've,

like, this- Like, branched out from- Yeah.

I was in one performance- Like,
not just little local, but-

just beforehand of this year, and he'sâ¦

Somebody said, I think it was
Pastor, "Who's not been here before?"

And so many people raised their hand.

I'm like, "How have you not been here?"

That's crazy to think.

Yeah.

Especially with how
long it's been going on.

30, yeah.

That there's- Yeah â¦ there's people
that have lived here and never- Yeah

never been to it.

And y'all, it's free.

You should come.

It's free.

And it's, and it's, you
know, it is- It's, it's good.

Yeah â¦ it is really good.

You know, it's, it's
just volunteers- Mm-hmm.

Yeah â¦ and doing our best to present
what happened, and I mean, we do our

best, but it's not- Mm-hmm â¦ it's not
even close to what Jesus did for us.

But it's just, I don't know, it's like-
I had somebody ask me one time, "How

much did you get paid to do that?"

And I'm like, "I didn't get paid."

Like, it's all in heaven.

Your payment's in heaven.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It's all, it's all volunteer.

Yeah.

So.

But yeah, it's just, it's amazing.

How much do you think that
your MMA background influenced

how you handled that role?

You know what I mean?

'Cause, like, when you
look at it, you wereâ¦

I, I would s- I didn't get to see
Matt, so I don't know how physical Matt

was, but when I look at it from you
and Kyle and Pierce, and this is not

saying that it wasn't physical with
Kyle and Pierce, 'cause it absolutely

was, but I feel like it was so much
more physical probably because you

didn't have all the padding- Mm-hmm

mm-hmm, yeah â¦ um, that
they did for part of that.

Um, and because youâ¦

I've always felt like 'cause you were
in MMA- Yeah â¦ you were kind of almost

willing to take a little bit more- Mm-hmm
â¦ than, um, was strictly necessary.

Yeah.

No, no, no, you, you-
So â¦ yeah, you're right.

No, I, I always told them,
I was like, "We need to make

this look as real as possible."

Well, and even, like- Like,
especially the, especially, like,

the, the beating scenes, like-
Mm-hmm â¦ it's- Knowing how to fall-

Yeah â¦ and you know what I mean?

Like, being able to protect yourself
from injury- Mm-hmm â¦ so you can

keep doing other parts of that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just wonder.

And there, there wereâ¦

We added, when I took over, we added
quite a few new things- Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

to it to make itâ¦

I wanted, like I said, I wanted to
make it look as realistic as possible.

Yeah.

And, uh, so that wasâ¦

Yeah, I think it had, it
had a lot to do with it.

Okay.

You know?

It, it really, it helped out
in- Yeah â¦ in making it notâ¦

You know, I, I think a lot
of that is still used today.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You know, throughout it.

So yeah, you know, and, and plus, l- I, I
saw, like, some of the injuries that Matt

had, and was like- Mm-hmm â¦ "All right.

We gotta do something."

I mean, I know I'm gonna, I know
I'm gonna get bumps and bruises

and things- Mm-hmm â¦ like that.

Yeah.

But, um, we'll try to do it as best
we can without getting major injuries.

Yeah.

Do you remember the ascension
scene they used to have?

I, yeah, I do remember that.

Did you?

You never did that one.

I never did that, never did that one.

It only worked like- I was, I
was so sad â¦ half the, if that.

I know.

I remember sitting in the audience,
wasn't part of the church at the time,

and watching when it didn't work,
and I was like, "Oh my goodness."

Yeah.

"This is kind of embarrassing."

But, like, he would just stand there
and it would like it would not, his-

When it worked, it was awesome looking.

It was.

Yeah.

But when it didn't- Yeah â¦ it was
kinda like, ugh, that wasn't so good.

Yeah.

For those of you who don't know,
like, Jesus, Ian used to ascend, well,

he didn't, but he had on this, uh,
costume that would lift up and- kind

of the lights went dim, but you could
still see it, and then he would go

down in, underneath the choir loft.

Yeah, there was a, there was a trap door
right there- Yeah â¦ on the stairs.

Yep.

Yeah.

Still is there.

Yeah.

I don't think we use it.

I don't think so.

I don't know that it is, um, used-
Probably not- â¦ during the play

anymore â¦ it's probably not, it's
probably not up to code anymore.

Probably not.

Well, a lot of things that we did
were not up to code way back then.

They, they, um, 'cause e- there was a
rumor it used to, like, mechanically

lower- Did it â¦ and stuff.

Mm-hmm.

But when Ben would use it for Satan,
it, like, that part didn't work.

He just climbed out.

Yeah.

So it was just like a ladder-
Yeah â¦ at that point.

Yeah, it used to.

I think it, I think it used
to be like a- Like a crank

like a hand crank, and then
they put a, and then they put

like a winch motor on there.

Mm-hmm.

But then the winch motor was,
like, really, really loud.

And they had to, they had to, they
had to do stuff to, like- Quiet it

down â¦ keep it quiet or whatever.

Or go, or go really, really slow- Yeah
â¦ so you couldn't hear it, but- Oh, man

that's one ofâ¦

some of the early 2000s- Yes â¦ you know.

Yeah.

Well, I talked to Larry Moore a
couple years ago about just the fire.

Theâ¦

We had a lot more fires- Oh, yeah,
the fire â¦ back in the day.

Mm-hmm.

But he was like, "There wasâ¦

That was not safe, and
we were always praying."

And I was like, it looked like it always
went off without a hitch, you know?

But, you know- I mean, I know.

It wasâ¦

Itâ¦

We've only not had it for, what?

Maybe five years.

Yeah, I was gonna say, y'all
don't even do fire anymore.

Just a little bit.

Uh-huh.

We just do that little
Nicodemus- Yep â¦ fire.

That one little thing.

That's it.

But it's because it's extremely unsafe.

Well, itâ¦

I don't remember what made them go under
the stage that last time, but I, I think

that something happened, and they, they
brought in somebody, and they genuinelyâ¦

Like, I don't know if this person's
a Christian or not, but they were

like, "It is only the grace of God."

Like, you guys should have
blown up so many times.

It was- Yeah â¦ crazy.

So for those of you who
are wondering, we liked it.

Yeah, it was great, but- It's
for your safety and our safety.

Yeah.

It made the hell scene always
look really, really great.

Oh.

Yes.

Well, but also, like- And
it was hot up there, too- It

was- â¦ by the way â¦ hot.

Yeah.

Those poor captives, like, the girls
would hairspray the fire- Oh, my goodness

â¦ out of their hair with, likeâ¦

I mean, well, hairspray
the fire into their hair.

But, like, they would hairspray like
crazy with the Aqua Net and, like- Yes

Mega and all the, all the craziness.

So their hair was just so flammable,
and they'd just flop around.

And Ben said thatâ¦

'Cause, okay, so Ben played Satan,
and he would, he would, likeâ¦

I remember he said one time, I
think it was either Sydney Simpson

or Hayden Simpson, he literally had
to grab her by the, by the hair.

Like, he clawed her hair and
yanked her away from the fire.

He's like, "I know that hurt.

I know that hurt that girl."

Well, it's a scene, either.

Like, the smoke was- But my goodness.

Yeah.

It was thick I mean, was it as scary
as it looked like being near the fire?

Like, do you think the
captives got too close?

Oh, well, we were all too close, I think.

Yeah.

I mean, it, it- Yeah â¦ you don't
realize, it, I mean, any time those flames

were going, I mean, you could feel it.

Yeah.

No matter where you stood out up there.

Mm-hmm.

It was always, I mean, you were
like, "Yeah, that's pretty hot."

That's hot.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I miss those days, though.

And Ben would cover his head in latex
and come off just pouring sweat.

Yeah.

I can't even imagine that.

Oh.

But we've had such-
Yeah â¦ great memories.

I remember there was always a- There
was always a spot where we would

pass each other in the hallway.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

We'd always give each
other, like, a fist bump.

Yeah.

I had a picture of y'all because you
were both in law re- law enforcement.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, both of these areâ¦

I don't know what I put on the
little- Yeah â¦ thing, but- Oh,

is that when we did the little
face off- Yes â¦ or whatever?

Yeah.

Yes.

That's still one of Ben's favorites.

We'll have to- I'll find
it and I'll post it.

Okay.

Yeah.

When this, when this comes out, I'll
post it on our Instagram- Yeah â¦ and

people can see it, but it was funny.

Did you have a lot of little kids come
up to you and, like, after the show?

Oh, yeah.

Like, not from the play, but just,
like, wanting to come back there.

Oh, yeah.

I know a lot of kids would
wanna meet- Oh, my gosh

Satan because they were petrified of him.

Yeah.

And I was like, "Oh,
he's just a normalâ¦"

He's just a normal man.

Listen, it became, like, a whole thing
where we got to the point where we would

take his makeup off in the fellowship
hall so that all of the kids could watch

and see- And help pick off his- He'sâ¦

Yeah â¦ makeup.

Can- And just see, like, oh,
this is just, this is just Mr.

Ben.

Mm-hmm.

Like, this is just some guy, you know?

He's, he's not scary.

He does smile.

Yeah.

I mean, he's kinda scary.

He, I mean- I mean, kinda.

He can be intimidating.

He has those c- those crazy eyes
that, like- He played Barabbas, too,

I think â¦ he, he has played every
bad guy except the high priest, and,

um- That'd be a good high priest

I think that's it.

I think he's, he's played every bad guy.

And he was laughing because he's Matthew,
so he's like, "I've played Judas,

and now I'm playing the second, like,
objectively, like, bad guy disciple."

Yeah.

Like, I, I was a tax collector.

There- I'm a bad guy â¦ who
was the high priest with y'all?

Was it Keith?

So when I started, it was Keith Underhill.

Oh, he was a funny man, too.

Oh, man.

Keith was al- Keith was intense.

Yeah.

And then it was Gary.

Those are the only two that I've
ever, that- Did Keith call anybody

the W-H-O-R- Can, can I say that
word on our, um- The A-woman.

I don't know.

We'll look it up later.

You can say it now.

Do you remember- I'll bleep it
out â¦ do you remember where he would,

he would sit in the back before, and
he would, like, scream out his lines?

Yeah.

Just randomly.

Yes.

So we'd be sitting there- Mm-hmm â¦ like,
you know, eating or whatever- Yeah â¦ and

just hanging out, and then- Oh, okay
â¦ the way they, the way they used to do it,

the costumes used to just be in the- Oh

in the fellowship hall-
Okay â¦ like, around the-

Mm-hmm â¦ around the outside of it.

Yeah.

And everybody would kinda get their,
get their, get their costume there, and,

and then they'd have, like, a, what was
it, like a headdress table or something.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And, like, right in the middle.

Yes.

Oh, wow.

And, like, so you would, everybody
would be eating, and then you'd

go, like, to the middle, and, like,
they'd have, like, all these ladies

working on headdresses- Uh-huh.

Yeah â¦ and stuff, and that's where
you'd go to get your head dressed,

and it was all, like, right there.

Okay.

So you'd basically go to, like,
the bathroom and change and

then come back in there- Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah â¦ and do it.

That's how they used to
do it back in the day.

We didn't have dressing rooms.

Yeah.

Which is crazy considering, like, 'cause
it's so packed in there now- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ to just get people- Yeah, I
can't even imagine â¦ available to eat.

I'm like, how do you have
the space to do all that?

Yeah.

But he would beâ¦

We'd be sitting there eating and
just hanging out, and he- they'd be

working on his headdress, and he'd
be like, "Don't you realizeâ¦"

I mean, he'd just- â¦ blare out a line.

And we, and we're all like,
"What's going- what are you doing?"

He is so funny.

I love him so much.

And he's a very good actor, too.

He is.

Yeah.

But we've had some, like, it's surprising
to see who steps up and- You're like,

"I didn't know you could do that."

Like, well, Gary has been great,
and Pastor Mike has been- Oh my gosh

like one of Gary's little- When Pastor
Mike stepped in to cover for Gary

That's another one of those roles that
you kinda have to, it like, it takes

a special person to play that role.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm, yep.

'Cause you're religious, but
you're bad, you know, too.

Yeah.

But yeah.

It's- You know, like- There's
certain roles that I, I feel like

it, it takes a certain person- Yeah

to play those roles.

Mm-hmm.

And that- A certain type
of person, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

And that's, the, the high
priest is one of them.

Like you gotta be- Yeah â¦ you, you gotta
be kinda- Yeah â¦ rude and- Rude and-

But- You can act rude, yeah â¦ you know.

Rude, and you have to carry yourself
so holier than everyone else.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like, ugh.

Yeah.

Pompous andâ¦

Yeah.

I feel like Ben could do it.

I used to always love it, like when,
when Gary started doing it, when we

did the, the adulterous woman scene.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd throw that rock at
him and hit him in the chest.

Yeah.

He'd always just look at me like that, he
would just give me this- Like, how youâ¦

Yeah â¦ he'd just give me this like look
like, "I can't believe you did that."

Yeah.

Like, and it just always- And can't
even â¦ it, it was always so good

â¦ that's probably what they looked at.

Probably.

Looked like, likeâ¦

Yeah.

How dare you?

You know?

Man.

So what was your favorite
scene, you think?

Uh, ooh, that's a hard question.

Mm-hmm.

There's so many good scenes in that movie.

There are so many Uh, I always
liked the dusty road scene,

the scene with the dead girl.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

I was kind of sad when
they got rid of that- Yeah.

I wish they'd do- â¦ to be honest
with you â¦ do a reprise of that one.

Mm-hmm.

It was good.

It was always, it was always
really powerful I felt like.

Yeah.

Um.

Well, I was like, you got to
work with Jay and- Oh yeah.

Well, Jay was one of myâ¦

Jay, there, and kind of, to kind of
get back into, you know, how I told

you my, I changed careers and- Yes
Mm-hmm â¦ you know, went down a different

road going, going into law enforcement.

Uh, Jay was one of the, was
one of the guys that- Mm-hmm

you know, was always
really supportive of that.

Yeah.

Of course, you know, he was our
sheriff for many, many years.

Yeah.

And, uh, he was somebody that I had
tremendous, tremendous respect for-

Yeah â¦ and always loved and cared for.

And, and, uh, your dad was
also one of those guys.

Oh, that's sweet.

Both of those guys were- Yeah

were really big influences on me,
um, when I changed careers, and were

very, always very supportive, gave me
very good, uh, advice when I needed

it, and, uh, and then told me things
that I needed to hear, probably

didn't wanna hear, but needed to hear.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, uh, but yeah, the, both those guys,
I, I hold them in very, very high regard.

Yeah.

We had Shayna on.

â¦ You know, she talks a lot about Jay.

It made me miss him so much.

Yeah.

He was, he was a tremendous guy.

Yeah.

And he was, he was one that was really
always fun to work with in the play, too.

He was, he was, heâ¦

Again, talking about people that you have
to have a certain person for that role.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

He was Jairus.

Yeah.

He was.

He was Jairus.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, that, that, nobody
else- The scream- Oh â¦ when

they found out she was dead.

Oh.

Yeah.

It's good.

It's, like, chilling.

Yeah.

It, like, rips your guts out.

Yeah.

Ugh.

Yeah.

I wish we could bring that back one time.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That was a very, very good song.

But I mean, I understand over time
things change, but- Yeah â¦ you know.

You gotta keep it fresh.

It'd be- New â¦ it'd be brand
new if you brought it back.

Yeah.

Yeah, it would be.

I feel like- It would be.

It's been, it's been gone long enough.

Yeah.

You could probably bring it back
and be like, "Wow, this is awesome."

I feel like now you can get
some, um, some retro vibes going.

Oh, yeah.

And the nostalgia factor for some people
that have still, that still remember it.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I feel like it could,
it could hit some buttons.

Yeah.

Like s- No, I'd say that was, that was
probably my, one of my favorite scenes to

do, 'cause it was- It was just the setup
for it and everything, and then the song.

The song was always really,
really- Mm-hmm â¦ powerful.

Yeah.

And, uh, so yeah, I'd say probably- Yeah

probably the, the old
Coming Down That Dusty Road.

Yeah.

Promise Coming Down The Dusty Road.

Yeah.

I'd like to, uh, you know I know
in our archive somewhere, I know

we have, still have VHS tapes.

Oh, my gosh.

Watch all the old ones.

I know we do 'cause I've seen 'em in
closets while I've been there, and I'm

like, "I need to watch Tribe Rising."

Most people don't know what a VHS tape is.

They don't.

I know.

And I don't even know if, I
don't even have a V8, VCR.

I don't even know.

I don't either.

You probably have to go
get 'em transferred to DVD.

Yes.

Yeah.

Probably.

Or just onto my computer somehow.

Yeah.

Boy.

Just digitized.

We couldâ¦

I know we have pictures, so we could
definitely put up some pictures- Yeah

when, uh.

Oh, there's, yeah, there's
pictures everywhere.

Yeah.

Man, it was so fun.

And I think I remember you talking
about Keith sitting in the middle of the

fellowship all getting his headdress.

I remember there's a picture
like that, plus others.

But I do remember that.

Yeah.

Seeing him like- I bet Jackie
has something that- Oh, yeah

she could send you.

Yeah, she needs to.

Yeah.

Well, you'd have Keith and Jackie.

My goodness.

Yes.

Yeah.

It'd be fun.

But anything else you can
remember that you wanna share?

I also heard rumors about pranks.

Oh.

Were you part of the prank parties?

You need to tell that.

I can, I can neither
confirm nor deny that.

No, no, no, no, no.

You are, like you're in a perfect
position to confirm and deny-

Mm-hmm â¦ the, the pranks that
may or may not have been played.

Um, because, you know, you're,
you're like removed from it for-

Yeah â¦ for at least a minute now.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I've been away long enough now.

Yeah.

I can, I can tell.

You, no, who's gonna getâ¦

Like, Pastor Ronnie's still there.

I- But- Kelly won't get mad
'cause he's in heaven, so.

No, not at all.

I know the, the soldiers always kinda
did their own- Mm-hmm â¦ pranks

on themselves and stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, uh, but the, the two that stand
out to me the most that I remember

was, I don't know if y'allâ¦

Do you remember Robbie Sims playing Peter?

Yes.

Okay.

He was good at that job.

He was good at Peter.

But he had this, he had thisâ¦

They made him like this special overcoat-
Mm-hmm â¦ to wear, and it was made- Okay

â¦ out of like this really, I don't know if
it was like really expensive fabric or

a fabric that is really hard to clean.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't remember
the whole thing behind it.

I just remember they had to make
him this special one, 'cause

Robbie's, Robbie's a big dude.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

He used to be, but he's
kinda lost a little weight.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, anyway.

Congrats, Robbie.

They made him, they made him
this, this special overcoat that

he wore when he's playing Peter.

And, uh, well, anyway, um, back in the
day there was, there was a part where

the soldiers were kinda off to the sides
during some of our scenes, and then

we would actually have to kinda walk
past them to get out to go to- Yeah.

Mm-hmm

Well, I guess, like, as, as we were
walking by, Kelly Loop decided to spray

something on the back of Robbie's- Oh, no.

What was it?

Was it blood?

No, it was- Oh â¦ it, we'll
just say it was an animal

attractant- â¦ of some sort.

Oh, no.

Oh.

Oh, no.

During a performance?

During a performance.

Oh.

Oh, man.

And of course- That stuff's
so hard to get out anyway

and, and of course, you know, we
didn't know it at the time 'cause-

Yeah â¦ we're, we're having to getâ¦

And, uh- Yeah â¦ and we were getting
ready to go up to the upper room scene.

Oh.

So it was like- Oh, no.

Oh.

So they're- And you guys
are all so jammed in there.

Yeah.

So we're, we're walking
out, and apparentlyâ¦

And I didn't, I didn't see this
happen, you know, 'cause I'm lead- Yeah

I'm leading the pack, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, so I didn't, I didn't see
any of it, but we found out later on.

So anyway, so he, he hits
Robbie in the back with this.

Of course r- no one, no one knows.

Gosh.

Mm-hmm.

And we get up there toâ¦

And there's a little time in between that.

At the time there was.

I don't know if it still
is, but there wasâ¦

We had a little bit of a break in
between that scene, and we would sit

up there in the, in the stairwell
before we- Yeah â¦ would go out

to- Yeah â¦ the upper room scene.

And we're all kinda sitting
there, and we're all looking

around like, "What is that smell?"

I remember looking at, I remember
looking at Brooks Canfield, and

we're like, "Dude, you smell that?"

He's like, "I don't know what that is."

And we're all like, you know, we're,
we're sitting there talking and, and

we're all, like, kinda lined up- Mm-hmm
â¦ getting ready- Mm-hmm â¦ to walk in.

Yeah.

And then Robbie is like,
"What's that smell?"

So we get, we walk in and we sit down.

And back then, the upper room scene
was a lot longer than it is now.

Yeah.

It used to be, like, they used to do,
like, several songs, and then we would

sit up there and actually, like, eat for-
Mm-hmm â¦ like, a short period of time.

Okay.

Like, you had dinner?

Yeah, you would- Yeah

yeah.

After, uh, after you did the whole freeze
scene and everything- Mm-hmm â¦ like,

we would actually sit down and we'd
be passing bread around and eating and

just kinda chilling and hanging out.

Okay.

And I can't remember what they
used to do during that time.

It was some kinda song or- Yeah.

Yeah, I don't remember the
whole thing, but we had a

little time to kinda rest- Okay

and relax there.

And the whole time we're just
sitting there going, and of course

my mic's off, you know- Yeah â¦ you,
so you can't hear anything.

Yeah.

And it's like, "Dude, what is that smell?"

Like, "Does, does everybody smell that?"

And then, uh, do y'all remember Reza?

Yes.

Yeah.

Remember Reza?

Yes.

Reza was just- Reza was like-

"What is that smell?"

Like, he's, like, looking around.

Like, he's looking under
the table and everything.

Oh, under the table.

Yeah.

I mean, we, we're- Under the table â¦ we
cannot figure out what the smell is.

So we, we get out and we, we go finish.

Well, then somebody notices that
Robbie has this- Stain or whatever

this, this wet- Wet area â¦ wet
area on the back of his- Oh my

goodness â¦ of his, uh, jacket
or his, his, uh, tunic I guess.

And someone was brave enough to go up
there and be like, "Yep, that's it."

Oh, so that- Well, that's not even, that's
not even the end of the story, okay?

Oh, no.

So we, we finished the play.

Uh-huh.

And, you know, at the end I, I went
back and got out of my stuff, and

I, and I always would get out of my
costume and come back down and, 'cause

obviously people wanna- Yeah â¦ talk
to you- Yes â¦ and meet you and stuff.

And so I'd come back down and sit
around and talk to people and meet

Well, I guess when Robbie went
back to turn his stuff in, uh, Ms.

Annabelle- Oh â¦ would have, like, all
the stuff that was, like, hard to wash.

Mm-hmm.

Like, she would gather all that up.

Uh-huh.

Well, she saw Robbie's thing
and was like, "What is this?"

And I guess r- Robbie was like, "Yeah,
they, they got me with something.

You know, we played a prank."

She was furious.

Oh, no.

Listen, listen.

You don't make fun of Annabelle.

Furious.

And so I wasâ¦

So I'm walking, I'm walking back down.

I'd, I'd went down and- Mm-hmm â¦ you
know, went and mingled with the

audience and stuff, and came back.

Well, then I realized I forgot
something, that I had to go-

Uh-huh â¦ I had to go move something.

Uh, think, the, the
cross beam that I carry.

Okay.

Yeah.

I had to go move it and put
it back behind the door.

Put it back where it goes.

Yeah.

Well, as I'm, as I'm walking
back down the hallway, Ms.

Annabelle is right behind me.

I don't see her- Oh â¦ but she's
right behind me, and Kelly Loop and

Wendell Miller are walking up- Oh,
no â¦ the fellowship hall toward,

to go back toward the dressing rooms.

And she pushes past me.

Oh.

And she goes right up to Kelly Loop, and
she gets in his face and she's pointing,

and she said, "I just want you to know
how long it's gonna take me to cleanâ¦"

I, I mean, she let him have it.

Mm.

Oh, no.

Or, and then, and then she said something
along the lines of, "Who put that on,"

you know- Yeah â¦ that, and ruined that?

And Wendell goes, "Kelly did it."

And he took off.

Of course Wendell did.

Of course.

Kelly's like- You need to
picture what Annabelleâ¦

Annabelle's a tiny, little-
Tiny, little Canadian.

Yes.

Oh, and she let, she let Kelly
have it right there in the hallway.

I mean, oh.

About- The sweetest
Canadian â¦ and it was the, and

it was the funniest thing ever.

I mean, I was- What did you do?

Oh, I was laughing.

I was rolling.

I was sitting over on, Iâ¦

You know they have the benches in there?

Yep.

Yes.

They put the, the, the pews in there.

The benches.

Yeah.

I just sat down and I, it was like I was
sitting there eating popcorn watching.

It was hilarious.

Oh my gosh.

I bet he felt really bad.

Oh, he feltâ¦

He said, "I f- I felt
that small after that."

I think I remember her saying, um,
like, you know, 'cause she worked

in the church office, but she said
that she never did get it out.

Like, she- Probably
didn't â¦ tried so many things.

Yeah.

They ended up having to throw it away.

Probably so.

But she, she couldn't talk
about it without getting mad.

Yeah.

But I didn't know what it was.

Like, I knew it wasâ¦

It was something.

Yeah â¦ I couldn't remember
what garment it was.

Mm.

But I knew that the soldiers wereâ¦

I mean, they mostly were the ones.

They were, they're the ones.

They're the little-
Yep â¦ mischievous guys.

Yeah â¦ they're the prank, they're the
prank- So what's, you said another one.

You said two.

Oh, the other, the other
one I think is even better.

So it wasâ¦

So, uh, Mark Johnson used to
play, um- Uh, s- what was it?

Son of Simeon?

N- Joseph of Ar- The one who-
Joseph of Arimathea â¦ yes.

Joseph.

Yeah.

So he would always, at the beginning
of the play, you know, he would walk

up there and he would set up the upper
room- Mm-hmm â¦ and get, like, he would

put the bread and fill up the- Yeah.

Mm-hmm â¦ the wine stuff, just to kinda
make it look like he was doing something.

Yeah, like- Then he had his,
he had his other scene where he

was carrying the jar of water.

Yes.

Yeah.

And then, you know, my crucifixion
scene, he goes to Pilate and all that.

Well, we always would kinda rib
Mark after the upper room scene.

We're like, "Dude, that, the bread and
that wine is, it's kinda trash, dude.

Like, you need to, you
need to step up your game."

And he was like, "All right."

And Mark's one of those guys, he's
got a really funny sense of humor too.

I know he does.

Yeah, he does.

He's, he's so funny to talk to, and
he's, he's really laid back, but he's

got a really good sense of humor.

Well, Andrew Blaney- Oh

made the comment, was like, "Man, we
could use some cheeseburgers up there."

Oh, man.

So that night, we go into
the upper- At performance?

During performance.

Oh my goodness.

We go up into the upper room, and you
know, there's, they have those big, uh,

clay- Pot â¦ pot bowls that- Yeah â¦ you
can't really see into the bottom of them.

Mm-hmm.

And they're like stacked this,
they're like this high or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

There's a cheeseburger in
every single one of them.

Did you eat it?

No.

We walked in- I would've been
like, "I'm taking a cheeseburger."

We walk in there, and I, and of
course, it's dur- You, you know,

you see it and you wanna laugh-

but you can't- Yeah â¦ because you're in
a live performance, but- Mm-hmm â¦ yeah,

there was a McDonald's- How funny.

There's a McDonald's double cheeseburger.

I've never heard that.

There's a McDonald's double
cheeseburger in every one of them bowls.

That's hilarious.

Still in the wrapper.

Oh.

Still in the wrapper.

That's not fair, 'cause
then you really can't.

Yeah.

Still in the wrapper.

But also, way to go, Mark.

Yes, brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant.

Brilliant.

Yeah.

Lovely.

So- Like- â¦ we finished the upper room
scene, and we're all sitting there and

kind of sitting there looking at it,
you know, kind of giggling about it.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, we get up to leave,
and we're walking out, and I

see Andrew Blaney lean down.

He grabs one out there and pockets it.

Good for you.

Oh man, Andrew.

Oh my gosh.

That's great.

He rolled it.

So yeah.

That's funny.

Oh, I could sit and
listen to this all day.

I'm just saying, like, the only
one that I have heard that I'm

like, "Did it really happen?"

I think it did, but I've, I've heard a
rumor that either Wendell, but probably

Kelly, put a Baby Ruth in the well
water so that it looked like- Poo.

â¦ poo.

Floating around- Did he?

â¦ in the thing.

Yeah.

So that likeâ¦

'Cause you know Loretta would go
over and get that big old, you know,

scoop and she- She, she's like- What?

Ugh.

Yeah.

So- And then the blind
man would watch this.

Yes.

And it looked like poo.

Who played the blind man during yours?

I couldn't remember.

Oh, it was, uh-

Oh man, I'm having a, I'm
having a, I'm having a blank.

Do you- Darryl Schrader.

Oh.

Oh, yes.

I bet he was good.

Darryl Schrader did it for a long
time, and then it was Lance, I think.

Yeah, Lance.

Lance was it for a while.

Lance did it for a while.

And I think- And then
did Brent, Brent do it?

Oh, and Alex.

Alex did it too.

Alex Cravens- Okay â¦ was
the blind man for a few years.

Oh.

Before he was a disciple.

I missed that.

Wow.

He, I mean, like, but I bet it was Darryl
that saw the- Darryl was- â¦ probably

â¦ Darryl, yeah, I think, I think a lot of
that was geared toward, towards Darryl.

Yeah.

He's good, gets into the humor too.

He does.

Actually, I, so I just thought of
another one, another pran- and this

was actually a prank that I did.

Oh, okay, good.

Okay.

But it wasn't during a performance, so.

Oh, okay.

I always took, always took
performances seriously.

Yeah.

I didn't, I didn't prank anybody.

This was, this was before.

So there was a, uh, there was aâ¦

Y'all remember Gabe, the Linemans?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

So Gabe was a disciple- Uh-huh â¦ for,
for a few years in our group.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, he was always really quiet,
never really said a whole lot.

Good kid.

Yeah.

But never really said a whole lot.

Uh, well, I said, uh, I said, "We need
to, we need to play a prank on Gabe."

And I said, "Let's, let's make him think
he's gonna have to play Jesus one night."

'Cause he was the, he
was like- Oh my gosh.

Yeah â¦ he was like one of
the younger ones, you know?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And so, uh, I got there, and I,
like, went and hid somewhere.

Mm-hmm.

And we set it up, like all the, like
all the disciples were in on it.

Mm-hmm.

Oh my gosh.

Everybody.

And, uh, and even, even
my wife got in on it.

She was helping with it too, 'cause-
That's funny â¦ basically what

they were gonna say was when Gabe
walked in, they were gonna be like,

"Hey, Brandon got really bad sick.

He cannot go tonight.

You have to step in and
play Jesus tonight."

"You're the only guy that we
have to play Jesus tonight."

And my wife was gonna be in on it.

Mm.

My wife was gonna be like, "All
right, yeah, I've got his, I've

got his costume up here already.

I'm gonna go help you, show you what-
â¦ y'all, you have to put on and everything."

And, uh, anyway, so they, as soon as
he comes in the door they go to him and

they're like, "Hey, Brandon's out tonight.

He's really bad sick.

You gotta step in and play Jesus."

And they said his eyes got- â¦ that big.

Poor Gabe.

And they said he just, he
couldn't even say anything.

He was soâ¦

He was just so s- Just, like, panicked
â¦ just panicked- Yeah â¦ and speechless.

And, and then my wife's like, "Yeah,
his costume's right here and this.

You, you know- â¦ I'm gonna
let you go in, I'm gonna show

you how to put everything on."

And he's just like, "I, I, I, I, Iâ¦"

You can't say no.

Yeah.

You can't, 'cause you, you
don't wanna let everybody down.

Yeah.

And then, like, and like I said, all the
disciples were in on it and they're like,

"Man, we, we, we're gonna support you.

We're gonna help you get
through it and everything."

"Everything's gonna be good."

Oh my gosh.

And then he's sitting there in it, and
I, and I think he was, like, trying to

say, "I, I don't know if I can do this."

And then I stepped out of the
corner and I was just like,

"Hey, buddy, how's it going?"

He's like, "Oh, you guys are terrible."

Oh, I love all the backstory.

Yeah, 'cause you just never
know this stuff is going on.

We need to write a book.

You need to write a book.

Yeah.

And interview everybody andâ¦

Mm-hmm.

I'm going to.

Yep.

Goals for 2026.

Late in 2026.

I was gonna say, it's, i-
it's really interesting.

I could do it.

Let's, let's do- I could do it.

We'll, we'll start the process.

Yeah.

Well, okay, we always end with, um, asking
a, a question you probably have heard.

But- Yeah â¦ um, if you could go back
and live any Bible moment real time,

besides the crucifix- Like, observe
it â¦ you've already kind of lived-

Yeah â¦ the crucifixion and all that.

Yeah, exactly.

Um, what would you want
to go back to and watch?

Hmm.

You can participate if you
want, but- Yeah, no, I've

never- â¦ you don't have to.

Participation is not required.

You can just watch and comment on it.

I've never really, I've never really
thought about that, to be honest with you.

Uh- I mean, we'll edit out the pause so
you can think as much as you need to.

No, no, umâ¦

We've had to edit out
pauses- Yeah â¦ from people.

They're like, "Well, uhâ¦"

I think when, after- I'll bet â¦ we
take out the crucifixion, it

gives people like, "Oh, well."

Yeah.

"If not that, then what?"

Yeah.

Um, I think it would've been
kinda cool to see the, to live

during, like, the Acts time.

Like, to see the- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ disciples in action,
like, after they- Yeah, that would

be cool â¦ lived with Jesus.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm â¦ and see how they operated
and, you know- Yeah â¦ some of

the things they went through.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I, I'd say probably around that.

Yeah.

And the period- Seeing Peter
and John and all theâ¦

Yes.

Yeah.

Them going through all their
tribulations and everything.

Yeah.

Like a, a disciple, a
post-Jesus disciple montage.

Yeah.

No one said that, so that's a good one.

No one has said that, yeah.

That's a good one.

Yeah.

I'm just trying to look at it from a,
you know, hey, he, they learned from

this guy, now they're out living it.

Doing it.

Yeah.

And I think all of them, their deaths
are recorded except for John's.

Except for John.

Which makes me wonder.

Yeah.

Is he still alive?

somewhere on this earth.

No.

I mean- Let's not get into
conspiracy theories â¦ we, uh-

We've talked about it heavily.

We have.

We have talked about- His death is not
recorded about how he died â¦ and Jesus

says that thing about, like, "If I want
him to live forever, what's it to you?"

When- Yes.

Who is it that- Who is it that asks him?

Is it Peter?

Yeah.

When Je- Of course it's
Peter â¦ before Jesus dies,

he and Peter had a conversation
and- Yeah â¦ and, and he saidâ¦

Of course, Peter and John
had all that- They were, they

were- â¦ competition â¦ rivals.

Yeah.

I feel like- They had some silly rivals
â¦ Jesus was, like, really tough on Peter.

Yeah.

Like, he was like, "Listen, man."

Yeah.

"This is"- Well, he had to be.

He was- He had to be â¦ kind
of a jerk at times.

Listen, I feel like, uh, spoiler, if
we haven't already released it, but

I think Peter's gonna be our- Next
jerk â¦ second jerk of the Bible.

We're gonna talk aboutâ¦

'cause he did some jerky things.

He did.

Yeah.

Cutting off somebody's ear.

He's great.

I, I like Peter, but- Yeah, me too
â¦ he's kind of a, he's kind of a turd.

Yeah.

And he was.

God, or Jesus, was tough on him, so.

Well, I wanted to, I wanted toâ¦

I was trying to think of something
that I could share with y'all,

but about how the play kind of
really affected my life- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ and, you know, there's a lot
of great stories that I had and memories

from it, but, um, I was trying to f- I was
â¦ wanted to share something that really

affected me in, in my life and something
that I was going through at the time.

Mm-hmm.

So this would've been
probably back in 2000â¦

Well, it would've been in 2012
'cause that's how, that's when

we had Griffin, our oldest son.

Mm-hmm.

So I was going through a phase
of life where I, I wasâ¦

That year I was just not very happy.

I wasn't happy withâ¦

I was happy with my marriage
and like- Mm-hmm â¦ you know,

and we were brand new parents.

Yeah.

We'd just had Griffin.

But I was just, with my job at
the time, with what I was doing-

Mm-hmm â¦ um, I was just not very happy.

Yeah.

Uh, we, we were not
doing well financially.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, and that's, that's putting it,
that's putting it really nicely, too.

Yeah.

Gotcha.

When I say, when they say living
paycheck to paycheck, I don't even think

we were living paycheck to paycheck.

It was, it was really rough.

Okay.

Having a rough time.

Yeah.

And it was, a lot of it was, you
know, my wife's a teacher, and then

the job I was working at, I just
wasn't making a whole lot of money.

Yeah.

It was kinda one of those jobs I
was, I felt like I was stuck at.

And I just wasn't happy.

Yeah.

At all.

I was, uh, kinda just
going through the motions.

And, uh, and then the
play came along that year.

So not only am I not happy with my
work and kinda where I'm at in life,

but I'm trying to be a good parent.

Yeah.

New, new parent, which is scary-
Mm-hmm â¦ in and of itself.

Yeah.

When you have your first kid, you're
trying to navigate, 'cause not only are

you trying to- It changes everything
â¦ It changes everything, yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, you're wondering
if you, if you're doing it right.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

And you're like, "I'm responsible
for a whole other human being."

I'm responsible for this human being.

And, uh, but yeah, and when, and when you
can't, when you can't feel like you're not

supporting that person financially- Yeah

especially, and your wife, it's just- Yeah
â¦ it, it puts a lot of stress on you, and

that's, that's kinda where I was at.

Yeah.

Um, and then we had the Passion
Play coming up, and, and I'll be

honest, that year I really just
wasn't feeling it that year.

Yeah.

I w- I put on a really good facade- Mm-hmm
â¦ and just kinda pushed through it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Made it through it.

And, uh- And, uh, after we got done,
and that, and a lot of that led to

eventually me changing careers- Yeah.

Mm-hmm â¦ a few years later.

Yeah.

That wasâ¦

I, I always pinpoint that
moment as my, "All right, I'm

in charge of my own destiny."

Yes.

I can, I can- Yeah â¦ I can
make my life better, and I'm

gonna, I'm gonna try to do that.

Um, but we got done with that, the play
that year, and it was a great year.

Don't get me wrong.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It was just like it is every year.

Yeah.

There were a lot of people that came.

Yeah.

A lot of lives got changed, and it was a
really fun year, but, um, I just, my heart

really just was not in it that year- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ for some reason.

And, uh, anyway, um, a couple weeks
after, I was on my way home from

work, and my wife called me and said,
"Hey, can you stop at the store?

We needâ¦"

I don't remember what it was.

Yeah.

It was just something for
dinner or something like that.

I said, "Yeah, I'll stop and get it."

So I go into Walmart, walking
down the aisles, and I'm

sitting there looking forâ¦

And that's the thing, don't send your
husbands to the store- Yeah â¦ because

they don't know where anything is.

I, I, I hate going to Walmart.

I can't ever find anything.

Anyway, um, I'm sitting there and all of
a sudden I see somebody, uh, you know,

coming to me out of my peripheral vision.

Mm-hmm.

And this woman walks up to me, and she
was probably in her mid-20s at the time.

Mm-hmm.

Pretty young.

And she said, "Hey, are you the guy
that plays Jesus in the passion play

at Russellville First Assembly?"

I said, "Yes, ma'am."

And she's like, uh, she's like,
"I just, I'm sorry to bother you,"

but she's like, "I just felt like
I had to share this with you."

And I was like, "Okay."

I said, "What's going on?"

And she said, "Well, I, I came
Friday night and watched the play."

Excuse me.

And, uh, she's like, uh, she kinda
gave me a rundown of her life.

She kinda came- Mm-hmm â¦ from
a pretty rough background.

You know, didn't have very
good parents growing up.

Yeah.

Kinda lived with different relatives
throughout her life and was- Mm-hmm

kind of passed around, I guess.

Yeah.

And got into drugs and alcohol
at a very, very young age.

Mm-hmm.

And it kinda took over her life into her
teens, going into, you know, her 20s.

Yeah.

And, you know, luckily she was able
to kinda get herself o- out of that.

Mm-hmm.

But she still struggled with a lot
of depression and, you know, the

things that follow from coming o-
off of a life like that sometimes.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

People usually deal with depression and
mental- Yeah â¦ health issues and things-

Mm-hmm â¦ like that, and that's kinda
where she was- Mm-hmm â¦ she was at.

And she had never really had anybody
to, never had somebody she could really

look up to and c- you know, confide and
kinda lead her in the right direction.

Yeah.

And, uh, and she hadâ¦

She's like, "I'mâ¦"

She's like, "I'm gonnaâ¦

I've contemplated suicide-
Oh â¦ very heavily over the

last couple months of my life."

She's like, "I'm just not happy
with my life and where I was at."

And, and, uh, she said, "I was
leaving work on Friday, and I just

happened to drive by the church."

And she's like, "I saw all
the people standing outside w-

waiting to go into the play."

Yeah.

And she's like, "I saw the sign
that said, you know, He's Alive and-

Yeah â¦ Passion Play or whatever."

And she's like, "Something told me
that I needed to go watch that."

She's like, "I don't, I
don't know what it was.

I don't know what happened."

Yeah.

She's like, "It just, it just like,
it instantaneously, something in me

said, 'I need, you need to be in that,
you need to be in that building.'"

Mm-hmm.

And so she's like, "I pulled in,
got in line, came and watched it,"

and she's like, "It totally changed
my life- Oh, wow â¦ forever."

Wow.

And, and she said the, she said, "The
part that really got me was at the end,"

she's like, "After you, after you came
back to life," she said, "All the people

that had persecuted you are coming
up to you, and you're hugging them."

And she's like, "There was aâ¦"

She's like, "There was a lady that
screamed at you and yelled at you,"

and she's talking about Loretta.

Yeah.

Basically.

Yeah.

You know, we always had that scene
where I met her at the stairs- Yes.

Yeah â¦ pulled her in and gave her
a hug, and she said, she said, "When

you did that," she said, "When you
pulled that woman up to you who had

persecuted you, who had, you know, spit
at you and yelled at you and called for

your death, and you pulled her in and
hugged her and told her you loved her,"

she's like, "I felt like that was me."

Oh, wow.

Wow.

And was she just, like, crying then?

Uh, yeah, I mean, we both were.

Oh, I mean, right.

I mean, I was trying not to.

Yeah.

I mean, I, but I, but itâ¦

You know, a- and it's very emotional,
but she said, "Yeah, I felt thatâ¦"

She's like, "I just felt like
in that moment, that was me.

That was Jesus hugging me-" Wow

telling me that I'm worth something-
Yeah â¦ and my life means something."

And, uh, she said, "Iâ¦"

She's like, "That's, that's
what I needed in that moment."

Yeah.

Wow.

And, uh, and she said, "I'mâ¦"

She's like, "I met a, a, another woman
that I work with, and I'm going to church

with her this Sunday for the first time,"
and, and, uh, she's like, "I just, for

the first time in my life," she's like,
"I feel like I have something to look

forward to every day when I wake up."

Oh, wow.

That's amazing.

And, and honestly, like, at
where I was at in my life at that

time- Yeah â¦ that was, like, a
real big kick in the gut to me.

Yeah.

Because it was like, all
right, my life is not that bad.

Yeah.

You know?

Like, I have it good.

Yeah.

Like, I, I have nothing to complain about.

But that, that moment right there,
that kind of, that stuck with me, and

then that ki- I, I attribute that to
it kinda sent me in the direction to

where I ended up in life now, 'cause
it was like, you know, I'm inâ¦

I can, I can change my life.

I can make my life better, and- Yeah
â¦ and it has, and it worked out, so.

That's, that's great.

And then even when you felt like you
weren't feeling it, God still used you.

Yeah.

You know?

I think that's, that's something people
need to hear, too, is like, it's a

sacrifice sometimes to be obedient to
God and, but when you do, you still

touch lives and still make a difference.

Yeah.

Even if you're just, like, like you
said, going through the motions.

And I was.

That, like I said, that, that, that wasâ¦

I've been very fortunate that
I haven't, I haven't had a lot

of, uh, hard times in my life.

Yeah.

You know, I grew up- Oh â¦ I
grew up kinda poor, but, you know.

Yeah.

We always had, we always had a roof
over our head and food in our belly.

But, um, but yeah, I, that, if I, if
I had to pick one moment out of the

whole time that I played Jesus and
being a part of The Passion Play,

that moment can define everything.

Yeah.

Wow.

You know, just the, that one,
if I just reach that one person-

Yeah â¦ that's all that matters.

Man.

Well, it saved her life.

Yeah.

You know?

She was contemplating ending
her life, and it saved it.

Yeah.

And one of my f- one of my favorite
verses that I use all the time, that

I tell people is, is Joshua 1:9.

Mm-hmm.

It says, "Be strong and courageous.

Do not be afraid, for the Lord your
God is with you wherever you go."

Yeah.

What more do you need?

Yeah.

If you look at it in that, in
light of that verse, you're

like, "What do, else do I need?

If he's, he's with me."

Yeah.

You know?

I love it.

That's a goodâ¦

That's a great story.

Yeah.

I loved it.

That- Man â¦ a great,
great note to end on.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Well, we wanna have you and Kristen
back sometime and talk about- Yeah

just different things and- Oh,
yeah â¦ 'cause I know God has tons

of chapters in everybody's life that,
but, and maybe your kids someday.

They sound very interesting and we
need to, we need to have some kids on.

I think it would be fun.

I think it would be great.

Yeah.

Kids are really- Especially a
couple â¦ kids are really honest.

Yes, they are.

They are.

They really are.

That's, that makes a good podcast.

When, when you, when you say, "Hey,
let's talk about this," they're

not afraid to talk about it.

Exactly.

But- That's the difference
between kids and aâ¦

Kids are alwaysâ¦

Or adults are kind of, I feel like, for
the most part, they're kind of afraid

to open up about their struggles.

Yeah.

Reserved.

Yeah.

Yeah, they'reâ¦

And I, and when, I remember when you guys
asked me to be on, I was like, "Oh, man.

I don't know."

Butâ¦

Yeah.

And people don't need to be scared.

It's just- No, it's not scary.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's just, it's just- It's just a
conversation â¦ it's just human nature.

Being vulnerable.

People don't like to
open up and- That's true.

Yeah â¦ be honest.

That's true.

Vulnerability is aâ¦

It is scary.

It is.

But kids definitely
aren't, are not like that.

We need to be more like kids, for sure.

Okay.

Well, thank you so much- I'm gonna
remind you of that â¦ for joining us.

And I can't wait.

Thank you for having me.

Cannot wait for this.

We may have to bump you up in the lineup.

I think this is a very
good message to give.

I do, too.

So.

I mean, we've gotâ¦

We can do that.

We've got one coming up that'sâ¦

We might do.

I think so.

Okay.

Like a bonus.

Yeah, a little bonus.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, thank you so much, Brandon.

Thank you so much, Brandon.

Thanks for having me.

Yep.

Bye.

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