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A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
- This is Lab Medicine
Rounds, a curated podcast
for physicians, laboratory
professionals and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
a transfusion medicine pathologist
and assistant professor
of Laboratory Medicine
and Pathology at Mayo Clinic.
Today we're rounding with Dr.
Eric His, chair of the Department
of Laboratory Medicine
and Pathology at Mayo Clinic
in Rochester, Minnesota.
Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Hsi.
- Dr. Kreuter thank you for inviting me.
This is gonna be a
interesting and fun event.
- Absolutely. So this
episode, we're really kind
of continuing this celebration
of celebrating the laboratory.
And so I wonder if we
could kind of get into this
by kicking off with, you
know, from your perspective,
why is it important to
highlight the presence
of the laboratory in
current medical practice?
- I mean, I think it's
always a good time to sort
of remind people that the
laboratory, you know, is, is there
to provide, you know,
services for our patients.
I think the number is bandied about that.
You know, 70% of all, you know,
medical information comes
from the laboratory.
And so, you know, we have a
major role in providing data,
actionable information to
our clinical colleagues
to make patient care
and treatment decisions.
And so with such an important
role, it doesn't help,
you know, hurt to get in front of people
and raise that awareness again that we,
we are a part of the care team.
- Right. I like how your answer
really highlights this is
by maybe playing this role
that it's kind, I mean,
when you say it's providing
70% of the information,
that's pretty substantial.
But then also to talk about,
it's a reminder, I guess it's,
it's easy to kind of be always counted on
to be providing these
results in a timely fashion.
- Oh, certainly. And I, I,
I think, you know, I, well,
COVID PR was a huge example of
getting lab front and center,
and it certainly raised awareness.
And at other institutions I've
been, you know, the awareness
that, you know,
at some point in time the
laboratory touches pretty much
every single patient in their journey.
And there's not a lot of
specialties that can say that.
Right. So one of my colleagues
here says, you know, we,
we are involved in healthcare
from cradle to grave in
that actually is to some degree true.
- Yeah. So, so that makes me
wonder, you know, I'm, I kind
of, everybody I think really
enjoys hearing stories.
And I'm curious about your
story of how you first kind
of came to understand
and appreciate this extensive role that,
that the laboratory plays
in medical practice.
- That's a great question.
You know, I was, I think there's,
people come at it from different,
you know, vantage points
and I, I was not one
of those persons that,
you know, grew up and said, oh,
I, I, you know, I understand
what the laboratory does in a hospital
and I, you know, that wants be me
or my, you know, my, my
parents were not pathologists.
'cause we run into those, you know, those,
those types of people too.
And I, I came out of more out of a
interest in the science background.
My dad was a chemist and,
and I, you know, was a chemistry major
and I sort of gravitated
towards laboratory science,
but didn't really understand until
really in medical school that
the laboratory played an
important, you know, role
in, in medicine.
And it,
and it truly wasn't until I had
taken a year off from medical school
and did, you know, basic science
research and then came back
and already then realized
like, I really like laboratory
and I knew there was
a laboratory component
in, in hospitals.
And so then I decided to do
a pathology rotation. Right.
And, and because of the
research I was doing
and I was on, in, in on like
part of what they rotated you
through was heme hematopathology.
And, you know, that first
day I basically knew, oh,
that this is what I, I wanna do
because my research was in
immunology and lymphoid biology
and, you know, I was sitting
there with a lymphoma expert
and I'm like, wow, this
is really cool enough.
It looks like the light bulb went off.
And I then I knew that,
you know, pathology,
lab medicine was gonna be the way I went.
- Wow.
- That's a story.
- I think that's a, a
nice, nice kind of point
to highlight then for our
students that are listening about,
you know, certainly there are
rotations you do in different
places, but understand that, you know, Dr.
Hsi really kind of came to
it from the research angle,
I think really helped kind of magnify
and put things in focus.
And so it kind of,
I guess I guess the takeaway
from there is to always be open
to opportunities and
look to connect the dots.
- Yeah. I I think, you
know, having an open mind,
being curious always will, will help you
in, in that regard.
- So, you know, now in
your role as as chair
of the Department of Laboratory Medicine
and pathology, you know, you're,
you're kind of really in a,
a key leadership role
and you know, that's an area that maybe
for other physicians, some
of our physician listeners
or laboratory professionals, that's a role
that many aren't used to thinking about.
So I'm kind of curious
about how, how do you
and your team work together to,
to really affect patient care?
- Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, you pathology, you know,
you learn to be a leader
because you have to lead
within the laboratory, right?
And you, you have to start,
you know, organizing people to
around common goals within
the lab to, you know,
raise the quality, develop the new,
as you through career in
pathology in medicine,
you understand that there's
roles in that medical leadership
of the clinical laboratory.
It gets to the exact question you want.
You, you, you raise is,
you know, how do you work
with the team then to
further the, the impact
of laboratory practice
into the clinical practice
and how do you, you know, stay abreast
and work with people that stay abreast
of the most recent developments?
I am, you know, very brand
new to Mayo Clinic of,
obviously I'm new of Mayo
Clinic for my entire career,
but I, I am new here figuring
out the, you know, how
to operate in this environment.
But, you know, one thing
that's is immediate clear is
that there are, you know,
leaders in the field in pretty
much every specialty in lab
medicine and pathology.
And, you know, these are the
places where you can have
a large impact by pushing the boundaries,
doing innovative tests, working
with a very sophisticated
medical practice.
And it's that kind of
marriage of, you know,
being on the cutting edge of technology,
AI automation
to really improve patient care.
And that's, you know,
what the, the focus of,
of a place like Mayo really
sort of lends itself to
that singular mission.
And it's been nothing but a
pleasure to be here so far.
- You know, if I can put a
couple of things together,
I think, you know, in the
earlier answer you were talking
about the important role of, of curiosity
and always remaining curious.
And then now in this answer
on how you're working
to affect patient care, you're
talking about, you know,
leadership building bridges,
pushing the boundaries,
advancing innovative practice.
I'm kind of curious for, you know,
what are your thoughts about,
for our maybe student listeners
or kind of young faculty
that are curious and,
and want to cultivate those
skills of, of leadership
and working in this direction,
what advice do you have for them?
- Wow, that's a great question.
I, I would think, as you
say, you know, be curious,
having an open mind,
understand, especially nowadays
that you can't do everything yourself.
Working in teams becomes very fulfilling.
You can always do more in
a, in with, with a team
around you than, than than by yourself.
And that, you know,
particularly those interested in pathology
and lab medicine as a career
is that it's so diverse.
I mean, pathology and lab medicine is all
of medicine, right?
We the consultants to other physicians
and, you know,
you can do almost anything
in laboratory medicine for,
in pathology from, you know,
being a forensic pathologist to
doing HLA testing to hematopathology, to,
you know, focusing on GI pathology
to clinical microbiology.
I mean, it is all of that.
And you can find a niche for yourself
and develop that, that interest.
So, you know, going into pathology
and lab, making that
decision seems like, oh,
I've decided my specialty,
but still the entire world
of medicine in a way is still open to you.
And you have to, you know,
decide if I'm gonna specialize
and what that's gonna be,
what what do I like to do?
And so it's a really,
it's a really nice place
to be when you, you understand that,
you know, possibilities
remain open to you no matter
where you go in your career.
I mean leadership lab, you know,
and that, that kind of role is also open
to you. So yeah,
- Maybe, and also, I wonder
if I can flip it around
to the other side and think
about advice for our clinicians
that are listening to this podcast.
And maybe there are clinicians,
hopefully if they're listen
to this podcast that they are aware of,
of the role in thinking about the role of,
of laboratory medicine,
but they might share it
with their colleagues.
And so for, for the listener
who maybe hasn't thought about the role
of the laboratory in their practice,
what would be your advice
for how to kind of approach
building that bridge maybe more
explicitly in their practice?
I think maybe some
clinician listeners may not
understand where to start.
- Yeah. I would say, you know,
please reach out, contact us.
We, we don't bite.
We, we love, in fact,
part of our, you know,
pathologists oftentimes are introverted
and, you know, we need to be brought up,
but we are always happy to, to consult
and, you know, lend our expertise.
You know, we become part
integral parts of the care team.
I think that's one area
that we, as a field,
our next big push is
to become a little more
integrated in front
and center in in the care team.
And, you know, I, one of the, my hobbies
and you know, is sort of, you
know, in lymphoma pathology
and, you know, I got involved
in some clinical, you know,
research groups and research
foundations that, you know,
deal with certain kinds of lymphoma.
It's a patient advocacy,
get to patients is another avenue
that is really satisfying
because patients are also
curious about laboratory testing
and their particular results.
And so that's another, you know, way
that pathologists may not
have not traditionally been
involved in part of the care team.
But that's certainly was a very fulfilling
exercise for me.
Other pathologists actually
are involved with that.
Transfusion medicine
people deal with, you know,
more directly with patients
and things like that.
So I think, you know, as,
as, as we as a field develop,
you know, our next frontier is really
to get a little more front
and center in the care teams.
- Wow. So that really leads
into my final question.
I was wondering if we could
kind of close out, you know,
you're, you're obviously in a
very key leadership position
and you've already kind of
tipped your hand a little bit for
where do you see the
future of the laboratory?
Where's, where's the laboratory headed?
If you could elaborate
a little bit for us?
- Yeah, that's a a great question. Yeah.
I, I maybe alluded to a little bit
that was a good segue, I guess.
But I think there's other as,
as we move forward in information.
'cause I think at the end of the day, yes,
we're doing all these
testing, our laboratories are
generating, like we said,
you know, a large chunk
of the information being
used to treat patients.
But at the end of the day,
it's information, right?
And so how do we leverage
that information in new ways
to add to, you know, the,
the diagnostic decisions
we're even talking, you know,
as, as you may know, you know,
Mayo Clinic has been digitizing
its entire glass archive
for over, you know, millions
of slides, which is great.
But at the end of the day,
okay, so now we've just
put the information there.
Now what we need to do is
figure out, you know, how
to unlock that information
and get new data from the archival,
you know, image data that we, we have.
And that's, that's certainly
one of the new frontiers,
you know, leveraging, you
know, ai, machine learning,
digital pathology on one side
helping to automate things.
And then on the other side
is just as I just mentioned,
you know, getting the people
and the, the lab professionals, you know,
more front and center
in the care teams with
that new information that we bring. Right.
- Right. And I almost as I hear you listen
to your answer there,
it makes me think about
meaning making is kind of
the, the phrase that kind
of pops up in my mind of, you know,
we have this information,
but what does this mean?
And I think, you know, I I really, that
that mission you're talking
about getting the pathologist
more integrated with the care
team really resonates with me.
What do you think is, might
be our biggest challenge
with that step forward into more of those
that clinic domain?
- Yeah. Well I think it's,
you know, part of it is,
you know, workforce
and kind of like keeping
people interested in
going into the field.
Yeah. Is you and I both
know, it's getting harder
and harder to find people
that get into the field
because, you know, there's so
many things people been doing
and how do we make sure
that people understand
there's this super interesting
career path that is contributing to health
of the population and,
and you know, how do we keep
those people interested?
And then how do we continue
to develop the skillsets
that we need in terms of, you know,
information management
and computational pathology, which is kind
of the new buzzword, right?
And, and build those skill sets
into the training program so
that we can continue
to grow as a specialty.
I think those are things
that we will be trying
to figure out over the next
coming, you know, decade.
- Wow. That's a great way to close out
that makes my medical educator
heart go pitter-patter
to hear you bring in the close of
where is the laboratory going
to, talking about the people
in our community of practice and,
and how we're training 'em.
Thanks so much for joining us, Dr. Hsi.
- Oh, thank you.
It's been a pleasure. Happy Lab week
- And thank you to the
audience for joining us.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions by email.
Please direct any suggestions
to MCL education at mayo edu
in reference this podcast.
If you've enjoyed Lab Medicine
Rounds, please subscribe.
And until our next rounds
together, we encourage you
to continue to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice
through insightful conversations.