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Welcome to Your Art Is A Spell, the podcast that ignites inspiring and transformative conversations about art as a magical practice. I'm your host, Edgar Fabián Frías—a multi-passionate artist, witch, therapist, and proud mutant shape-shifter. My art spells have reached audiences through social media, billboards, and skyscrapers and have even been placed on the surface of the moon! Join us as we explore how reclaiming your unique artistic voice and embracing bold creativity can transform your life and the world around you. Subscribe to the podcast and sign up for our newsletter at www.yourartisaspell.com to stay connected!
What happens when the border stops being a line
on a map and becomes something that follows us
into our neighborhoods, into our schools, our
libraries, our airports, our memories, into our
bodies, into our fears and our imaginations? What
happens when a border becomes a haunting? Today's
guest, Ed Gomez, has spent nearly two decades
asking questions like these through his work as
an artist, educator, curator, and co-founder of
the Mexicali Biennial, an artist-run project that
began in 2006 with a small group of people, very
little money, a printer, and a belief that artists
could create the platforms they needed. Instead
of waiting for permission to be invited in, Ed's
interdisciplinary practice moves across painting,
print making, graphic design, video, sculpture,
conceptual art, curating, and institutional
critique. But at the center of all of it is a
question that feels specially urgent right now.
who gets to create the frameworks through which
art and people are seen, valued, remembered or
erased. In this conversation, we talk about the
Mexicali Biennial's upcoming PARAnormal Borders
project, the border as a portal, a site of memory,
and a political technology. We talk about
ghosts, aliens, surveillance, disappearance,
and collective trauma. We also talk about the
radical power of creating something together,
of creating a movement, an exhibition, a
community, or a new possibility when the
existing systems do not make room for you. This
is a conversation about art as a form of agency,
about what haunts us, and about the world that
we can create when we stop asking for permission.
Let's dive into this conversation with Ed Gomez.
Hi, I'm so grateful to you, Ed, for being on Your
Art Is A Spell. Thank you so much for your time
and for joining us today. I would love for you to
share a little bit about yourself and uh introduce
yourself to our listeners. Awesome. Well, yeah,
thank you again for for having me. This is always
a pleasure to spend time with you and and share a
little bit about my art practice and things
that I'm into and what I do um not only for
fun but also for research. And I'm uh currently a
professor in art at California State University,
San Bernardino, where I primarily teach sculpture,
which is pretty funny because uh when I was a kid,
all I wanted to do is make paintings. And I
always think of myself as a painter. I took
one sculpture class in in college and now I teach
sculpture at CSUSB. So I come at sculpture from a
different perspective, I think, than some of my
my colleagues in in other universities. But
I grew up wanting to make paintings. I grew up
looking at the old Jansen's art history books,
right? They're like this big and you know they
had like this much much section about ancient
art and then there was a tiny little sliver about
modern and contemporary art. And so I would just
go through that and look at all the the artwork
and try to memorize all the artists and paintings
and their names. And I and I came out out of
that whole process thinking that in order to
be a great painter, you needed to be Spanish and
dead, right? because those were the works that I
always kind of gravitated towards. And long story
short, I I, you know, I just continued making art,
studying art, got a scholarship to take
art courses at the community college. So,
I did that for a year and I just continued and
I got my BFA in painting. Ended up going to Otis
College of Art and Design and I received an MFA
and I had a this, you know, declare something. So,
I declared an MFA in painting and I I never really
saw myself as a designer. never saw myself as a
curator, organizer, an administrator. Um, I just
wanted to make paintings. And I started, you know,
after I graduated, I I got a job at Professional
Packers and Forwarders, which was a company that
was doing primarily art packing and crating, and
I worked uh closely with The Broad collection. And
then after that, I worked at uh LACMA. And then
I started getting these job opportunities for
teaching, but I was it the classes were primarily
teaching technology courses. So I had to literally
learn how to use Photoshop and Illustrator and
teach myself graphic design because those were
the job opportunities that I had and again it was
something I never wanted to do. I never saw myself
as being a graphic designer or but I kind of the
universe kind of forced me into these paths and
allowed me to explore things and now you know
I I do lots of graphic design work and digital
fabrication work uh painting and I'm a you know
professor at CSUSB teaching sculpture uh and then
along the way I also started curating but I I
started curating out of um a need to instigate
and activate and create an opportunity when no
one else was giving artists of my generation
and age opportunities. And so that's really how
I started curating and then eventually led to
you know developing and creating the Mexicali Biennial with my
partner Luis Hernandez back in 2006. Um yeah I just
want to highlight two things that you shared that
I feel like are really important. One of them,
you know, as you named that you had a certain
vision for yourself as an artist, like moving
in a certain direction and that the universe kind
of aligned things for you to maybe explore or move
into other realms. And also you sharing that when
there weren't opportunities, you started to forge
them. You started to create them. And I really
appreciate you bringing that in. It's in a way
like that kind of dance both between seeing what
the universe shows up for you and like kind of
where you're guided and also creating things
yourself, creating opportunities for yourself
when maybe you're feeling like you're stuck or
things aren't happening for you. I'm curious as an
artist like do you have any themes or realms that
you like to explore in your own personal work?
Yeah, I think from from personally like I I I came
into art through Picasso in a weird way and ended
up getting not only inspired to make paintings
because of Picasso but also Duchamp and again
because of my early art education consisted of
like a little sliver out of a big black and white
art book. Those two artists kind of really stood
out and in inspired me to kind of ask questions
and and make work. And so I think like my painting
and design work is predicated on compositions and
formal ideas about uh painting through Picasso
but then I also interested in conceptual practices
site specificity uh institutional critique
practices things done in situ that I think
that it's primarily comes from this understanding
of some of Duchamp's work and Duchamp's practices.
I'm kind of like fluctuating be between these
these kind of opposites between really formal
and visual and then also conceptual and maybe
sometimes not not material at all. But you know
early on I think I think my work was all about
you know making paintings and this idea of the
practice and of of making paintings which
is a very lonely process. decided, you know,
art painters going in the studio and you spend
a lot of time hyperfixating on this process and
colors and you're thinking about things that words
can't really describe because it's, you know,
non-verbal. It's more of an experience and an
exploration. And so that's kind of, you know,
how I really started my art practice. But then
after going to graduate school and learning about
conceptualism and these these different you
know um historical precedents when it comes
to art making and and the expanded field of
what art can be versus what art was really
changed the way I think about making things. And
so I'm no longer maybe rooted in one particular
medium in one particular way of expressing or
saying or communicating. Whereas I think some
artists are like yo I'm just a photographer. or
I just everything I do has to be a photograph or
some people are like I'm a, you know, I'm I'm
a clay artist. Everything has to be, you know,
solved with clay. I think for me it's maybe my
maybe I'm more of a multidisciplinary artist.
I'm more about ideas and things that interest me
thinking about my practice through this idea of
ontologies instead of just like a a linear line
that from beginning to end. And I'm not really
interested in in doing the same thing over and
over and over again. I'm I'm more interested
in just kind of exploring ideas. And so for
some people, my work may seem schizophrenic or
nonlinear um maybe not grounded in a particular
look in a brand. And I think that's because of
my work is really an expression of like ideas,
thoughts, and feelings that sometimes are based
in design work and sometimes they're based
in formalist ideas of color and sometimes
they're just about structure and material. Uh
and sometimes they're about things that are
very political. Right? We're living in a in
a very politically charged environment right
now. And I think the project that we're working
on right now, PARAnormal Borders, is is really
addressing that because we're we're living in a
paranormal time with paramilitary groups making
ghosts and making people disappear uh at a time
when our communities don't feel really safe. So,
I think that art also has the opportunity to
not only present that, but hopefully find ways
to overcome oppression and injustice. Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that. And I think you know
it'd be at this moment it maybe important to share
a little bit about what the Mexicali Biennial is
and the history of the Biennial as you shared that
it started off as a response right as a kind of
looking at institutional critique as an form of
art making and um yeah and what you bring in today
too which is like the theme of this year's meal
bienial which I'd love to get into in a bit but
before we do maybe if you would like to just share
a little bit about the history of the Biennial and
you how you got to co-create it with Luis. Yeah.
Yeah. The Biennial is interesting because it's it's
it's multiaceted again. It's it's it's kind of
like this idea of the readymade. In other words,
what the Biennial is and what it does is a model that
was already there to begin with. And it just is
a matter of activating that. And this came,
you know, I graduated Otis in 2003. So it's
after 9/11. I started the graduate program right
when 9/11 happened. And so 9/11 became a really
um important kind of canon event in our our
everybody's artistic practice at the time
when we were going through graduate school. And it
very much affected us in terms of our fear factor,
the the insecurities, the lack of you know
people were losing their jobs and it was a
time when you'd watch the news and the the threat
levels were constantly changing. And so there'd be
like a color-coded section saying today the
threat level is really high for a terrorist
attack and then they would go down to like an
orange and yellow and we never got to like a
green area. In other words, we were never safe. Uh
things change in terms of al airports and travel
and and that's like a continuation of of what
we were also feeling because of NAFTA, right?
the the NAFTA and and you know the the Biennial
happened within this idea of fear insecurities
a crushed economy in the wake of NAFTA but also
after Insite which was really this idea of like
activating the border with these international
artists that you'd bring in to talk about issues
about the border between United States and Mexico
and so it was I think that that forms like the
historical context for the background of of this
environment right where you know as a person of
color an artist poor broke trying to create an
artistic practice and just trying to find ways
to sustain the Biennial really became an opportunity
to create space and and in doing that the only
way to actually make it sustainable was to also
create community or activate community. So it was
a time when there weren't a lot of opportunities
and and Luis Hernandez, my partner that lives at
Calexico and Mexicali told us about this small little
art space in Mexicali, Mexico called La Casa de La Tia Tina,
which was a a really kind of like a punk non-white
cube space that was maybe more popular with punk
bands and people doing like pop-up shows. Uh but
it was this idea of like artists from California,
Los Angeles going to a different country and then
you know activating that or finding ways to kind
of talk about binational relationships and and what
it means to be American versus what it means to
be a Mexican and what does it means to go back and
forth between this border that not only defines us
but also divides us. And so I was super excited
about this and when we found out it was going to
be in Mexicali Mexico, we looked at the word itself,
Mexicali, as a as it's a portmanteau, right? It's
the merger between Mexico and California. And
so right there I was like, well, this is already
like a ready-made um border itself as a ready-made
border because of the bi-national exchanges that were
already happening due to NAFTA and the border
was like a site that we wanted to interrogate
and create an opportunity for artists to engage
with. But we also realized that we didn't have any
money. This was pre uh social media, pre anybody
having their own website. I think the most popular
thing to do was like create a MySpace, right? And
just kind of play music and and try to promote
your stuff that way. And so we wanted a way to
kind of talk about what this project was going to
be, this idea of like artists from California
going to Mexico and exhibiting, but under a
framework that not only made sense, but also
helped us to get attention. So this was also at
a rise with with the international Biennials like
you know in the early 2000s there was like this
huge rise in biennials everybody seemed to have
a biennial and when we first started kicking around
the idea well like maybe this exhibition that's
happening in Mexicali maybe that should be called
a biennial because that was an already understood
platform right there was a way for people to kind
of enter and understand oh this is like not just a
a group show this is like this is a biennial right
so taking all the prestige and what people already
understand biennials to be and then applying that to
this tiny little show with with artists that uh
had no no money, no budget to create context and
allow for something else to to emerge because of
that. And this was also a time when when you know
people were like yo don't don't call it a biennial.
We have a biennial indigestion at this point just
call it anything other than a biennial. I felt like
it was really important to call it a biennial because
of those reasons, right? You can't disregard it as
easily. You know, we could have done done like a
show called the Mexicali whatever and then people
would have been like, "Ah, just whatever. It's
just another show, group show, a bunch of artists
in Mexico." But biennial created different context and
um so that after we decided to call it a biennial,
it was like okay, we need to visually pack package
this. For some people, they need to see something
in order to believe it. Sometimes I believe and
some people need to believe it before they see it.
And so I didn't need to see it because we already
believed in this idea of having this bi-national
platform for artists to exhibit on both sides. So
I didn't really need to see it because I believed
it. But I realized that people need to see this
to believe it. So we created like a corporate
package for the biennial. We created like a website,
stationery, logos, business cards, and we'd
post like this is the Mexicali Biennial. Come visit.
This is our exhibition. And so people were able
to believe in that because they could see it. They
became real for them. like this is an established
legitimate uh organization doing this, you know,
international exhibition when in reality it
was just like a small handful of people with
no money and like a printer creating this this
momentum. And I always thought about this like,
you know, I I thought about like this idea that
you could push really hard on something and this
idea that we could push so hard that we could
tilt the earth but like a fraction of an inch in
a different direction. But that little push that
we did 20 years ago in time has built up to what
we are now which is a nonprofit arts organization
doing continuing our our work our research on on
bi-national exchanges border art contemporary art
and then now even publishing books and doing
scholarly research and projects with the Library
of Congress and other scholars across the country.
So, um, it's been an interesting journey and
I've been super thankful for everyone that's,
you know, been part of it and participated.
My wife, April Lillard Gomez, is a huge part
of this project. She's been part of the the
biennial since its inception and she's, you know,
now she's doing a lot of research and writing
and and doing programming. And then Luis and
I have been, you know, collaborating ever since
graduate school. And the other thing that's made,
I think, the biennial successful is is like
community. You know, when we started out,
we didn't have we didn't have any money. Uh we
didn't have any support, no corporate support,
no but what we had was like each other.
And we realized that that was, I think,
even more valuable than a bunch of money in a
bank because we could really work together to,
you know, make the a better version of our world.
And I think it only it only worked because we
really felt that in order for us to collaborate on
something, everybody needs to benefit, right? It
doesn't have to be a zero- sum game where like
one person benefits and everybody loses. Like
how do we create these situations where everybody
can like participate, collaborate, but we all can
get something out of it together? And you know,
there's a whole thing about like being DIY, but I
think Luis Hernandez recently said, well, it's not
necessarily it's DIY, it's DIT. In other words,
do it together. And I think that really kind
of has summed it up. Wow. It's so beautiful to
hear the history and to know that for any artists
who are listening and who maybe are feeling under
represented, unseen, maybe the curators aren't
interested in what you're doing to just know that
it's possible to do something like this, right?
As you said, with a printer, create a movement,
put energy behind something. And you know, I think
about with this podcast being called Your Art is a
Spell. For me, like spellwork and witchcraft,
you know, one of the things that really draws
me to these practices is that they're about
self-ordaining and not waiting for permission
and really reclaiming power. And I hear so much of
that in what you're sharing. and to see where the
biennial has you know come to now as you said with
all these different communities and connections
and you know participating institutions it's
amazing and I know so many incredible artists
curators uh you know and institutions have been
a part of the history of the biennial and I and I
I also want to highlight that there's just been a
incredible catalog that's been published about the
biennial as well. Right here we got it right here.
Art, Actions, and Exchanges. This is 20 20 years
of work in like 300 pages. Um, we're super excited
and thankful for that. Yeah, it's the co- editor
on that is Rosalia Romero, which as a young kid
in growing up in the Imperial Valley helped paint
one of the murals on the border wall by Armando
Rasco. And years later when she was um a student
at UC San Diego, she actually uh was there and
participated or viewed the the transborder soccer
game which is the the soccer game with homeless
the homeless collective. Felipe Mansano as one
of the artists in there and Cristian Franco and
they created the soccer match where the kids could
play soccer using the border wall as as a midfield
blind. uh and Rosalia was there as a spectator
and then years later to be able to work with her
as a curator and then also an editor for this book
was really special because she provided like a
certain kind of a authenticity or perspective and
academic rigor to the project that I think very
few people would have been able to do. So we're
really thankful for all the work she did in terms
of um editing and also contributing text to that
that publication. And so art actions and exchanges
really started. Uh it was like a four-year project
where Rosalia came to the to the archive or Mexicali
Biennial archive which was my garage full of like
boxes and like trying to figure out like how
can we display this work and we created the
art actions and exchanges exhibition at The Cheech which was part of Land Of Milk and Honey in 2023.
And that initial research really informed the
symposium that we did at the Cheech with scholars
talking about contemporary issues and historical
issues when it pertains to like artistic practices
but also the US Mexico border and bi-national
relations. And that kind of continued on with
the the you know creating the the rigor and the
the research for the book. And the book is really,
I think, special because it it it tells a story
and it tells a story and it's not a story that's
just situated at the US Mexico border, but it's
also a story about contemporary Los Angeles based
art practices, right? And I think that's kind of
where we we we kind of the biennial kind of shifts
from other border-based projects is because we're
looking at all of Mexico and California as an an
area of aesthetic production, right? and we're
nomadic. But I think that the the book really
displays that by having scholars, creatives, and
writers kind of talk about the border from two
different perspectives, but also rooted in this
idea that, you know, it's also a contemporary Los
Angeles-based uh art project. Um, and so I think
for me that's been super super rewarding to be a
part of. It's kind of like a dream come true and
we're really thankful for the Mellon Foundation and
the support they've provided in order to make this
this this thing that's impossible possible. So,
you know, it's it's designed to be um a companion
kind of text for a classroom. So, there's there's
essays that you can read and it's by it's
bilingual in US and English and Spanish,
but it's also designed to be a visual experience.
And so I spent a lot of time thinking about like
how can we share this project visually but also
have like a a rigorous kind of academic, you know,
grounding as well. And so as you go through the
book, you're going through things chronologically.
going back and forth from one side of the border
to the other and then revisiting, you know,
the five previous iterations of banial exhibitions
and trying our best to kind of, you know,
give you the feel, the look, the texture of what
these Mexicali Biennial art action and exchanges
are all about. Wow. Yeah. I'm really struck with
how, you know, the biennial is about the border and
it's also about dissolving the border, too. And I
really appreciate that as an artist who has often
felt um you know that feeling of alienation on
either side of the border, right? And also has
come to really understand the interconnectedness
around our cultural production that there is this
dialogue that's constantly happening and that the
border is just this thing that happens to be there
that we are in many ways forced to engage with or
respond to. Right? And I'm wondering if for you in
the history in your time with the biennial if there
is like a project or maybe a couple of projects
that have really struck stuck with you and that
you really maybe want to highlight. Yeah. So I
think that you know when you look at projects like
Insite I think for me early on it was very much
about you border art right border art from artists
that maybe have no had no relationship to the
border but like kind of flown in and then given
this opportunity to do some sight specific work
that just happened to be border art because of the
location that it was at. And so the the biennial for
us has always been a platform to help facilitate
artists however they want to interrogate or deal
with the border or not. So we're not necessarily
like forcing artists to do certain things. It's
more like how can we work together and make
your vision possible. And so early on we had
artists that you know did not want to deal with
the border for at the very first exhibition at
La Casa Tina in 2006. And we had some artists that were
like, "No, I want to really activate the border.
I want to do a border art based performance." And
so the the very first border art project that we
did was with an artist uh Mike Rogers called
Telephone/Teléfono. And this was a time when
the border fence was shorter and things weren't as
as militarized uh and you could actually walk up
to the border and talk to the person on the other
side. Right now, you can't do that because it's,
you know, it's it's a militarized zone. They won't
even allow you to touch the wall. you can't put
anything from one side of the wall to the other.
But in 2006, it was a very different world. Um,
and so Mike Rogers created these two wooden
structures and put one in a a park in Mexico
and one on on the Mexican side and then one on
the US side. And then he he threw a string and a
cup over and the idea was to have someone climb up
the pole on the Mexican side and someone to climb
up the pole on the US side, grab the the cup with
string and then play a game of telephone, right?
right? And this idea of communicating between one
side of the other. And I remember like helping
install the Mexican side of the installation and
people trying to get into the US were, you know,
waiting in line in their cars and like what are
you what are you doing? This is ridiculous. You
have a ladder you trying to climb over? And we're
like, no. I go, we're like, would you like to make
an a free international call to the US? Then like
hand them the little styrofoam cup and asked them
if they wanted to talk to someone in the US. And
so that was like a really like amazing beautiful
gesture. Yeah. And it's about communication.
It's about the you know kind of humanizing but
also this idea of play that comes into in in into
the mix. But at its roots about it's about communi
communicating and communicating with the other. It
just happens to be in a different country because
they're like this far this on the other side of
this this metal structure that divides. And then
the other, you know, in 2009 for the 2009 biennial
we did the the trans-border soccer match game and
that was really amazing too. But it's all that was
about the breaking down of communication in a way
because you would have one team of soccer players.
Okay. So the the way it's set up is is half the
Mexican team was on the US side, the other half
was on the Mexican side and then vice versa for
the for the US team. So the US player, the players
playing in the US would kick the ball over to
Mexico and then that would activate that side and
then the Mexican uh side would kick the ball over
to the US side. But in the process of kicking the
ball over to the other side, it was very much a
breakdown of communication. Like the players
had no idea what was going on the other side,
how close this goal would was being scored or not,
if there was any kind of penalties. and then you'd
have to just wait for the ball to come over
and then put that into play. So, I think those
those two projects are really interesting because
one's about like engaging with the other, seeing
the other, communicating with the other, and the
other one is about like the breakdown of all that,
you know, and just really fixating on what's
happening on your side of the border because you
can't see what's happening on the other. And ever
since then, we've we've invited artists to do,
you know, what we call border activations,
right? And you know, the book Art Actions and
Exchanges has a whole section specifically,
you know, addressing border activations, but
it's also about artists not addressing the border
or not necessarily having to address the border,
but this idea of their work, you know, going back
and forth between countries in a way, you know,
I think addresses that. Yeah. And there are
many ways that we're impacted by the border
whether or not we, you know, are addressing
it directly. And it also shows up in so many
different ways in our practices and in our lives.
And, you know, you mentioning that so much has
changed since 2006 and that we're living in a very
different time when it comes to the border. Um,
I'd love for us to maybe pivot a little and talk
about the theme of this year's Mexicali Biennial
and how you came to this theme. Yeah. So the the
the very first biennial was very much like a punk
gesture. It was this let's let's create a biennial
when no one wanted a biennial and when it and and
then the second one was this idea of continuing
that but finding everything that we could do to to
not have the biennial function as a biennial like to
go back to Duchamp like you know the readymade was
like this anti-art work uh that ends up becoming
art. Well, the biennial started out as an anti-biennial
project doing everything we possibly could for
it not to be a biennial. It's like not happening
every two years. It's happening in two different
countries in three different cities and you know
like how can we really mess with this platform
um and in doing that you know uh allowing for
the critique to happen and but also you know
questioning questioning these platforms from
the inside out. That all changed in in you know
the for the for the 09 10 biennial we kind of continue
that but then in in 2013 we did cannibalism in the
new world and then we started you know addressing
these iterations of biennial programs through themes
and through curatorial themes and that continued
on to Califia where we're looking at the namesake of
California the queen Califia that is a ruler of the
island of California and looking at this idea of
where the the word California comes from and what
that means. And so that was about having artists
reinterpret that story and manifesting a new
terrestrial paradise because the story of of Califia
written by Montalvo in 1510 is is a story about,
you know, colonization and subjugation and and
and the defeat of indigenous uh uh groups and
and succumbing to Christianity. Uh and so, you
know, we really wanted artists to reexamine that
and come up with their own new take and narrative
on that. And then in for Land Of Milk and Honey
we're looking at at California, but California
as a corrupted Eden, right? This idea of uh
California's rich agricultural producer. And so
we wanted to kind of see the parallels with that
with Steinbeck's uh Grapes of Wrath and some of
the similarities that were happening in the past
that we're still having to contend with now. And
looking at agricultural through diff agriculture
through different lenses, through labor, through
history, through food and so that was really land
of milk and honey. the last like three major
iterations of the biennial was always about
looking towards the past. So I thought, well, you
know, let's do something about the future, right?
But this idea of like future chicanx culture or
ideas is just kind of like either played out or,
you know, always ends up revolving around Star
Wars, which is in in a way it's like the most
ridiculous thing to do, right? Because
as a kid watching Star Wars, I was like,
where are all the Brown people, yo? Like like
like this this galaxy far far away a long long
time ago didn't have any like Latinos. Like what
was up with that? just like the the only like when
Mario Ibarra says like you know the only Latino or
the the brown person in Star Wars was like Chewy,
right? Because he's brown, his name's Chewy (Chuy), and
then he has this like Emiliano Zapata like a row of
bullets around his chest and nobody understands
him. Like, so it's like Chewy the only like brown
person in Star Wars like that's and so like
why if we thinking about the future do we have
to like interject anything having to do with like
Star Wars or George Lucas like let's let's not do
that. Uh besides like like that's not really the
future. That's like a long long time ago. I think
maybe we should be looking at Star Trek, right?
Like maybe Star Trek is this idea of the future
that's maybe more inclusive and not as the racist
or segregated. But so but but we we realize like
this okay so this idea of like a sci-fi future
chicanx chicane whatever latine kind of theme is in
in itself is a little is a little problematic and
so how do we how do we open this up to and make
it even more more broad but would also invite
this idea of the paranormal into discussion
because you know UFOs could be paranormals or now
what UAPs are paranormals and this idea of ghosts
and stuff and so for me I think I love a really
good ghost story. And for me, the most interesting
thing about about location or stories and and
then it's even becomes even more special when
it's about this place being haunted, right? And
what does that mean to be haunted? In a way, like
this idea of a ghost story or or a haunted space
makes me even more interested or intrigued about
learning about its history. And there's many ways
to think about ghosts, right? There could be like
this metaphorical ghost. there could be like an
evil ghost or um but in in its essence it's about
history. So this is kind of what we were thinking
about for for paranormal borders. And then Trump
got elected and things changed dramatically.
The border wall got bigger and we started seeing
paramilitary groups on the streets and people
disappearing and the border wall that we're all
familiar with that separates us from Mexico became
expanded through this idea of the 100 mile border
and in itself that is a very paranormal like
kind of experience to to witness this idea of
the border coming into your community the border
coming into 70% of populated cities throughout
the United States and seeing border patrol, border
trucks, ICE immigration enforcement happening in
your neighborhood and and and very much this is a
paranormal kind of experience that that we are all
collectively encountering through trauma, through
people being displaced, disappeared, ghosts being
made. And so the paranormal border is not just
about a ghost story or a strange light, but it's
also about what we're experiencing collectively as
a country. Whether it's the fear, the trauma, the
displacement, the uncertainty that is not normal
to the point where artists that are working and
living in Los Angeles are starting to say like and
question whether or not they are border artists
because the borders come to them because border
patrols are on the street. And so what does what
does that mean, right? And so paranormal borders,
I think, encompasses all that. It's looking at the
border as a portal, which it is, but also thinking
about portals in different ways. It's thinking
about, you know, history through ghost stories,
um, through disappearances, and it's also about
the political the political climate and position
and the situation that we're in right now that is
very paranormal with paramilitary groups. Um, and
we are really thankful that artists are engaging
with all these topics in some very profound and
creative ways and in a way to kind of express,
you know, our kind of like what we're not happy
with and also showing the potential for a a better
outcome. And I'm I'm super hopeful and thankful
for, you know, the the works that have been
submitted and and the projects that we're going
to be engaging with because I think it's at this
point it's very important for for us to really
declare what we want versus what we don't want and
um understanding that we have the power to
make that change, right? We all have agency.
I always tell my students like if if you don't see
exhibitions happening that you feel should happen
then go and curate it. If no one's writing about
the work that you feel needs to be written about
like go write about it or if nobody's curating you
into an exhibition like you don't have to wait for
someone else to do that. We all have power. We all
have agency. We can we can do it ourselves. Uh but
when you do it hopefully you can do it together,
right? And I think there's a lot of power in that.
Yeah. Well, there so much here with what you're
sharing is yeah, just feeling so resonant. I'm
trying to gather my thoughts, but I think one of
the things that comes up is this idea of parah as
like beyond, right, but also abnormal in a sense
and how as you're naming that the border has
grown to the point where it's now in libraries
and parks and at the airport and in the mall,
at the theater, right? And it's also within us
too. And I find it so fascinating, weird, uncanny,
disturbing that this has developed and grown
alongside also this disclosure movement in the
government around aliens and UFOs and UAPs and the
way that, you know, undocumented people have been
called aliens. And even the government still to
this day plays with this notion of the other and
the alien as a way of targeting and speaking about
undocumented people. And you know, I think as
you're naming that these hauntings or this idea of
the paranormal is both something that is physical,
its story, its narrative, its history, and it's
also metaphorical. It represents something. It's
like a strategy, a technology, a thing that's
being used to create consensus or reality. And
so all of that I feel is at play. And I, you know,
I'm not surprised earlier before we were recording
you mentioned how many people applied to be a
part of this bianial. And I'm so not surprised
by the popularity and like the way that artists
are like wanting to talk about this cuz there's
so much here that can be discussed when it comes
to this notion of paranormal borders. Yeah. And
I think that the paranormal is very popular.
That's the hook where you know someone might
feel like oh this is going to be entertainment
and then when you enter into this these series
of exhibitions there's something else at play
right there's a question there are questions that
are being asked and there's a criticism and then
there's also the opportunity for play so I think
that's that's kind of I'm really um interested
in seeing how all those different aspects come
out on that but I think to go back to your idea
of alien I think that's super fascinating right
like who gets to call someone alien, right? What
does that mean? Uh which reminds me of like this
this speech that Ronald Reagan did, I want to
say in like the middle 80s, 83 or 84, he did this
speech at the United Nations and he talks about
how the the world would would dramatically change
if a UFO were to land on the lawn of the White
House, right? Um and how immediately we would
we would have to confront this external other.
How that would change the way we see each other,
right? when we're having to physically contend
with this really truly alien thing that's not from
this world, it would make our differences kind of
collapse because we would be all from members of
spaceship Earth versus this external alien thread.
And then I think he ends the speech by saying,
well, hasn't that already happened, right? And
so all the UFO conspiracies theorists are like,
oh, this is a early form of disclosure that
maybe lines up with ET and Close Encounters,
right? And then fast forward to, you know,
recent times where we like you can open up
the New York Times and be like, "Look at these
UAEs and, you know, people are starting to
think about and talk openly about aliens, right?
Congress people speaking about it. And it's not
just your tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists.
It's it's more than just being mainstream."
And I my question is like what would happen
when we have full physical disclosure and how
that would radically change society. I think it
was in the '60s the Brookings Institute did this
report saying that it would cause systematic you
know civilizational failure to disclose aliens. It
would ruin the economies. It would cause conflict.
It would be the dismantling of civilization if the
government were to disclose that, you know, aliens
actually do exist. So, let's do everything we can
to suppress that information because we don't
want the economy to to collapse, right? We don't
want people to have this like cognitive dissonance
and then riots happen as if we can't handle this,
right? Like especially now after like Star Wars
and Star Trek and like all these sci-fi fantasy
films, like it's like kids are growing up like
of course they're aliens, right? is like let's
consider the vastness of the universe or the
universe universes plural right like of course
you know we're not alone but I think there's
another kind of more insidious kind of aspect to
this and that is I think tied to this idea of free
energy so if UFOs really do exist they're not only
weapons of mass destruction they can potentially
time travel but they they function on a a form of
energy that is abundant and free and when energy
becomes abundant and free what does that do to
trillion dollar industries that rely on gas and
oil and electricity and what kind of economic
destabilization would happen if everyone just like
decided to have their own UFO energy bank. Maybe
that's the the the fear that's going to keep full
disclosure from happening anytime soon. Yeah. And
I think this brings up, you know, the other realm
of parah with paranormal, which is the haunting.
And I think about how we are continuously haunted
by the past in our contemporary day and how
decisions that were made in the past continue
to show up. And you know, I'm thinking about,
you know, what you were saying with Reagan and how
there have been these cycles of different people
being marginalized or used as political pawns and
that like target is constantly shifting. And you
know, I really felt that in the way that ICE has
been deployed in many cities as a way to kind of
reaffirm a certain stance or a certain way of
intimidating communities, especially knowing
that, you know, I'm someone who grew up with
undocumented parents. And I have a visceral memory
of being afraid of La Migra. And just thinking
that like years later, here they are again,
showing up as another force, as another haunting,
as like another ghostly paranormal energy that's
like all of a sudden back. And again, this idea
that the past and the future and the present
are not as far away from each other as we might
want to believe or as maybe as we have been told,
you know, cuz especially I'm someone who grew up
with this idea of we've made so much progress and
things have changed so much and you know, we're
in a melting pot now in the US and there's so
in a sense like this haunting is just a way that
we can't get away from colonization, capitalism,
white supremacy and the effects are still so felt.
They're visceral. They're in our communities. And
uh to me is also another way of thinking about
how the border continues to haunt and it will
continue to haunt and it's like a part of of
course other histories that go so far back as
well too. Yeah. Yeah. The the the border and and
you know at one point this was indigenous land,
right? And then this the Spanish land and
they're like no this is Spain and then it
becomes Mexico then it becomes United States and
then this idea of of the palmsesta of the border
and the history and the and the movement. I think
maybe in the future it's going to be like Canada,
United States and Mexico are all one one country,
right? Like who who knows what the the the future
will bring. But yeah, I think you know this idea
of hauntologies like Derrida writes about this,
right? like this these unrealized unresolved uh
futures that we should have had, right? At this
point, we should have all been like flying around
in Jetson like the Jetsons, right? Like like you
watch back to the future and you find out like
you know this this future wonderland with all
this technology was already our past, right? And
you know what happened to these promises? What
happened to these these visions of a of a better,
freer, more progressive uh society? And how much
of the past are we destined to have to repeat?
And is this a cycle that continues, right? Are
we like, you know, version five of this project
that's been rebooted and we just have amnesia
from our ancient past? And I think these are all
like amazing questions to ask. And I think that,
you know, we're kind of as we selected projects
for Paranormal Borders, we were thinking about
this in mind, right? Like like what is the
past? What is the present? What is the future?
And like how are we particularly in this moment
of time to kind of look back at our past but also
reimagine a future and maybe this better, more
hopeful vision of the future and then realize
that we can actually manifest it. Yeah. Yeah.
I'd love for you to share how many artists are
going to be involved in the new iteration of the
Mexicali Biennial and also how folks can go and see
the artwork in person as well. Yeah. So, we have I
think 67 artists and someone told me that that was
funny. There's like six, seven artists, but not
all of them are going to be showing in the same
venue. So, we h ave multiple venues and the idea is
that each iteration, each venue, there's going to
be something different for the public to actually
experience. And so we'll start off in October with
exhibition spaces at the Steppling Gallery which
is on the campus of uh San Diego State University
Imperial Valley campus. It's the Stepping Gallery.
It's directed by Luis Hernandez the co-founder of
the biennial. We also have Casa Tia Luna which is an
alternative art space located right on the US
Mexico border in Calexico. Arista which is an
alternative exhibition space also run by Luis
Hernandez in Mexicali. And that building has two
stories, so both floors will be activated. And
then we're also thinking about an additional venue
there at the border. And so that kicks off in uh
the middle of October. And then everything shifts
and goes to the chich. I believe it opens up at
the Cheech Marin Center for Chicano Art and Culture
in March 13th of 2027. And it's going to
be there for 6 months. So we'll have six months to
do projects, programs, maybe a symposium, artist
walkthrough, artist talks, curatorial walkthrough.
And so yeah, we're super excited. This will be the
sixth iteration of the biennial and then also going
to be accompanied with another publication titled
paranormal borders where we will be looking at the
project frosm its inception which happened in 2024
at the lab in Whittier where we started doing our
paranormal borders programs with solo exhibitions
and we'll end in March of 27 at the teach well
I'd love for you to share how folks can keep
up to date and stay in touch so that if they're
interested in uha you know being a part of this so
that they can get thepnformation that they need.
Yeah. So uh check out our website mexicalibiennial.org.
We have all our news and events that we're going
to be working on should be posted there. Also our
social media account on I think we're more active
on Instagram. On Instagram we have a an artist
discussion series starting uh in September with
MacArthur fellows Josh Kun and Alex Rivera.
And this program continues and there'll be
additional MacArthur Genius conversations and
and poetry readings happening at UC San Diego and
then again the the border exhibitions happening
in October. But I think the the best way to get
a hold of us is through our social media and our
website mexicalibiennial.org. We're working on the
PARA Archive project where uh April Lillard Gomez
is going through and starting to catalog and
kind of create an archive of everything from
digital assets to physical ephemera or physical
objects and uh archiving it for the next 20 years
to see what happens with that and it will be
accompanied again with another publication.
Oh wow, that's great to hear. And yeah, I
want to thank you so much, Ed, for being on
uh this podcast and for sharing about all of this.
I'm so excited to be a part of the biennial and to
uh you know, be a part of the history that you've
um helped co-create with so many people. And is
there anything else you'd like to share before we
end today? No, I mean I, you know, um again, we're
also very thankful and and excited to be working
with you as well for Paranormal Borders. We worked
a little bit on Land of Milk and Honey and I think
you mentioned earlier that you you were raised
in Riverside and so like going back to the Cheech
is like going back home in a way. Yeah. So we're
super excited to be working with you again for
this next iteration and I I think that you know I
I would just highly encourage people creatives out
there to really understand that you have you have
power, you have agency that you can you can make
things make things better for yourself that you
have the power to create. You know, you mentioned
earlier this idea of spellcasting or spells. And
I think that language itself is a form of that and
that's why they call it spelling, right? Like you
have to learn how to spell in school, but then you
also have to learn how that works in real life.
Like I can walk my dog down the street and like
encounter someone and tell them like good morning,
have a good day, how are you? Like and I can also
be like, you know, super negative in about them
and in a way that's like casting a negative spell
versus casting a positive spell. But not only can
we do that to others, but we can also do that
to ourselves. And I think we have to be really
mindful about what we tell ourselves. Are we
being negative about ourselves? Are we being
telling our spell casting upon ourselves to limit
us, to diminish us, to invalidate ourselves? Or
can we also do the opposite and be like, you know,
I'm validating myself. I have agency. I have the
ability to to co-create and make things better
for not only myself, but everyone around us. And
we can start that out individually, right? We can
work on ourselves. And I think that's something
that's I' I've been working on. Yeah. Yeah. I
love that you bring this up because I do feel
like this connects a lot to what we were talking
about earlier. I do see the the government and
corporations as also casting their own spells
and wanting us to believe certain things about
ourselves. And it's incredible to see artists
respond with their own messages, their own voices,
their own visions. And I'm so excited for us
all as artists to explore this notion and to
see the diversity of, you know, visions that
will be brought into these exhibitions. So,
thank you so much again for being on this um
episode and uh for all the work that you do as
an artist as well as a curator, organizer, and in
community. It's been a pleasure having you on the
show today. Awesome. Thank you. I keep returning
to what Ed shared in this conversation that when
artists do not see the institution, the archive,
the exhibition or the world that they need,
they do not have to wait for somebody else to
create it. The Mexicali biennial began with an
act of belief. It was an artist-led project
built across borders with limited resources,
but with a deep commitment to collaboration,
cultural exchange, and the possibility of making
space where there had been no space before. Over
time, that belief became a community, exhibitions,
research, archives, publications, and a living
history. And I think that that is a spell at the
center of this episode. We are living with so
many kinds of borders, visible and invisible,
geographic and psychological, historical and
political. Some of them are imposed on us. Some
of them haunt us. Some of them tell us where
we can go, who we can be, what is possible,
and whether we deserve to belong. But art gives
us another way to meet those borders. It lets
us name what is happening. It lets us remember
what has been erased. And art lets us imagine a
future that has not arrived yet. And perhaps most
importantly, it reminds us that imagination is
not passive. So wherever you're listening from, I
hope this conversation leaves you with a question.
What do you want to create? And never forget
that your art is a spell and it will change your
life and the world around us. Thank you so much
for listening or watching your art is a spell.
Please help us expand our networks, connect with
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love through these portals. Blessings,
blessings, blessings upon blessings. Bye.