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The no-BS podcast to scaling startups and growing revenue and businesses.
Speaker 2 (00:00.024)
you are definitely the most successful woman when it comes to startup and tech.
was confident that I can do something with it.
You started building a mobile game which you had no experience in. I knew she would be good at that one.
and I started Googling. In gaming industry, that's actually what brings you users.
So you decided to forgo the publisher and you decided to do all the marketing, everything, basically on your own.
Speaker 1 (00:24.936)
We finished it, we published it. We had no money for the paid user acquisition and you're praying for that as a big part of it and it never happens.
You're gaming people.
Speaker 3 (00:36.814)
Highest I swear.
Your focus on metrics and measuring things is non-negotiable.
It was a complete game changer for us.
Speaker 2 (00:50.968)
Welcome to The Growth Hour, the No BS podcast on how to grow startups and scaling businesses. Today, I'm incredibly excited. Our guest is Maria Ilic. Hi, Maria. It's a real pleasure to have you. And thank you for accepting the invite even before we were live. That's a huge trust. I've known you for some time. I'm really grateful that I can actually call you my friend.
Hi girls.
Speaker 2 (01:17.57)
build some amazing stuff. I would say that you are one of the most successful tech entrepreneurs in the region. I would say that you are definitely the most successful woman when it comes to startup and tech. And now you are in this other phase of life where you are actually giving a lot back to the community and trying to support the ecosystem, the regional ecosystem and entrepreneurs.
And the most fun part is that you're actually coming from a very competitive and quite different community. That's a gaming community. So thank you for being here with Alex and me. And before we start, I know Alex... It's a growth hour after all, right?
We need to choose.
Speaker 3 (02:09.354)
are we powered by alcohol, but it's great growth discussions.
Cheers. And now when we fed you with alcohol, I'm sure you'll feel more comfortable to talk about yourself. So just give a short snippet to those from our audience that don't know anything about you and the things that you've built.
Okay. First of all, thank you for having me. Thank you for the kind invitation and even more kind words. I'm blushing a bit. My name is Maria. I am a gaming industry executive and advisor. I'm co-founder of a game development studio called 2 Desperados. I spent 12 years there and exited three years ago.
I also participated in co-founding the Serbian Games Association, non-profit, non-government organization which is helping the gaming industry ecosystem here locally. And that happened seven years ago and I'm currently president of the board there. I'm also doing a lot of mentoring work.
That's what I enjoy most these days. I'm working with a lot of startups, which are not only gaming startups. I'm also part of Google for Startups Accelerator Mentors Network. And I'm also doing mentor work at Indie Games Accelerator from Google Play Hong Kong office.
Speaker 1 (03:57.368)
That's it, would say. The shortest version of the introduction.
I actually don't know a lot about the gaming industry if I'm being honest. We've had a chat in the past, so I think it would be really helpful to kind of just talk about, I believe you had a service-based business before, then you moved into kind of like that gaming product. So if you don't mind just kind of explaining a little bit more for people who are very, I guess, ignorant like me who don't know the gaming industry and what it actually means to develop a product.
Actually, just to add on this, maybe if you can, because now you work with tech startups in general, what would you say is the most important thing any tech entrepreneur should know about gaming industry? What are the differences?
Well, main difference actually between any tech startup and gaming startup is that when you create a product, you need to think of the fun factor of your product because in gaming industry that's actually what brings you users and the revenue eventually. For other kinds of tech products, the fun factor is not necessarily.
the main point that you need to take care of.
Speaker 2 (05:09.608)
Especially if you're doing an accounting software.
Yeah, there's nothing. Actually, when I used to work in the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey, I liked the accounting. You liked it? Kind of jobs because for me, you know, the paperwork and stuff like that is kind of a no-brainer. So you just relax when you do that. So it's fun for me. Yeah.
Functionality more definitely more fun
Speaker 2 (05:36.392)
You have control. But to Alex's question, that's very interesting, especially for the region where we have a lot of service-based companies. And I know even a lot of those tech service-based companies are trying on and off to build their own product. And you are one of the rare ones that actually made it. So can you just, I know that you really rarely talk about this part of your professional journey, but can you just go back
to how that life looked like a long time ago.
Well, like most of those companies back then and nowadays, I forgot to mention actually that this year marks 20 years of my career.
Cheers to
Congrats! That's a huge... 20 years in the tech industry, right?
Speaker 1 (06:27.094)
Wow.
We have what you call a tech veteran with us.
I call myself a startup grandma when it comes to the service of our ecosystem. you are a great grandma.
Yeah, so it was a lot. But yes, like most of the startups we started as well, me and my partners in business, started with IT services. Web software development was of course the niche. And we were working with many clients. We were in classic outsourcing business. And it was really difficult actually to
while ago.
Speaker 1 (07:08.408)
to grow that kind of work because it was huge amount of projects, short span projects, a lot of them, and if you wanted to maintain the high rate, you had to work more and more. So it simply was unsustainable to grow that up to some point.
So I realized that we have to move to something more sustainable. And the decision actually was influenced by two things. I had a friend who back then actually started working in the gaming industry here in Belgrade. And I must say that my friend and his partner in business, they were the first people in Serbian gaming industry
who sold their franchise for one million US dollars. It was, I would say, some 15 or a bit more years ago. It was actually the beginning of the industry here locally. So that was the first influence. And the second influence was this constant feeling that we have to make something that's going to have, you know...
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (08:28.855)
a recurring revenue and not only giving the services which is
chasing clients and then the formula is the same.
Exactly, chasing your own tail all the time. So that was the main influence. And back then, we started working on a project that was one type of the game that I played most at the moment. And I felt most comfortable, you know, replicating something like that, even though I had no idea
just making it better.
And making it better, yeah, of course. But no, not even better. It was just the learning curve for me. Just to simply create a game from zero to publish and to realize what it takes. And it was really a learning process for us. So the first game and the second and the third.
Speaker 1 (09:35.862)
were of the similar type of the games. What we didn't know back then was that the market has changed a lot during those three or four years while we developed those first three projects. And the market became oversaturated with this type of games. So the first project, we were funding games on our own.
That's important to say. And we were completely bootstrapped all the way. It doesn't necessarily mean that there's something good, but that's what happened. And actually the first game was a success for us. And we thought that if we applied the same recipe, the second one is going to be an even bigger success, which didn't happen.
So that's when we realized that we need to pay attention more to the market, to the other players in the market, what they're doing, not to match the dates with some big players who are publishing their own projects, etc.
Did you say that for the first game you were a bit lucky?
Leave
Speaker 3 (10:53.024)
I want to what made a difference. We were lucky. Why you think it was so successful?
Well, I think it was the right time and place for us. It was okay-ish game for the first one. The second one was much better because we already had some knowledge to put into the second project, but it simply didn't pay off.
Mm-hmm. And then...
And then, in parallel.
At the same time you were working with clients.
Speaker 1 (11:27.276)
Yeah, we were still working with clients because that's what funded our game development journey, actually.
two businesses, a business and a building a product at the same time.
It was really difficult when I was preparing for this talking to Alex off the record. I told her that I remember one time we were at some gaming conference abroad and during the day you're talking to a lot of people, you know how the conferences are. You're talking to a lot of people trying to sell your product, trying to get a publisher, etc.
And in the night, I got back to the hotel, I had another two or three hours of work for, you know, pure project management for this services business. And it was really highly frustrating up until one point when I realized I cannot continue doing that if we want to make some kind of success, you have to be only. So that's when we decided to
The great Ollywood.
Speaker 1 (12:37.675)
shut down the services.
Just pause for a second. You know me already, but you know that I'm the one who asks additional questions. But when you say all in, I'm sure you didn't just wake up one day and told yourself, okay, now we are going all in. I think that's the most difficult decision for even now all the, let's say, service-based business founders is when, how did you got to that moment, okay, now?
Yeah, yeah
Speaker 2 (13:09.388)
this service business, either I'm stopping it or I'm outsourcing it to somebody else. Somebody else will take over the management and do it worse than I'm going to do it. But my focus from now on is going to be all in. So what happened? What were your thought process? Not just you, but your co-founders. How did you do it?
Well, actually there were several circumstances that led to this. The most important one was this frustration of doing two different equally difficult businesses at the same time. The second thing was that with the services business, our main job provider from UK actually was lowering the price, I think, three times during one year.
there was a lot of unloyal competition back then also from some other countries and that's why we realized that we are working more and more for less and Yeah. And it was just with this difficulty to focus at something that you love working, which is creating a game and doing something that puts the bread on your table. The frustration was
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (14:29.398)
building during a year or so. And it was just, it was actually one day we realized we cannot continue doing that anymore.
I'm wondering like because a lot of founders will be in the same situation like how do you know what are like the early indicators to? Know that because it's not just frustration It's also making sure that product is actually going to have legs to to be the successful business to focus on So was there anything early that that made you aware that this was the right business to focus on?
That is a very difficult question. I don't know what early indicators are, but out of this perspective, all that I can say is that you have to put your emotions aside and you have to be rational.
I thought you were going to say gut instinct and then you were like put your emotions to the side.
You have to be rational with these big decisions. Because what I see all the time is that most of the founders are very emotional about what their product or service or their company is. And that's actually what makes them unable to see the reality. Even if you tell them explicitly, but no, that's not the thing. They just refuse.
Speaker 1 (15:52.472)
to believe because they're too emotionally involved with their product or company.
So what I'm hearing is you had some good metrics about the product business and were confident that you
Actually no, no, actually we didn't. Now this is additional knowledge. Now I'm smart, but back then it was just emotions. It was just, I cannot continue doing this anymore. Something has to change. Let's try putting all in and see one year from now if we are going to succeed or fail and go do something else.
Okay, so I
It was just motion.
Speaker 2 (16:34.51)
Okay, and then when then you started to desperado's and let's just move quickly you decided to build a mobile game Yeah, you were in charge mostly for the product. Yeah
Exactly. I personally started from something called game design, which is creating the whole game ecosystem, so to say, the whole user experience, the whole narrative journey, everything that happens in a game when you play it is created mainly by game designer.
and then additional some other people who are involved later on. So that was my primary role. The moment when we decided to shut down the services business and continue working only on game development was also when we switched to mobile games, which is like creating something completely new. Those previous three or four projects that we had were like
you did nothing, you are starting all over again because this is completely different approach, different type, everything is different. And that's actually the moment when our success was created.
And then we know the question that I'm going to move into next, but offline, you and I had a conversation about the product development. And what I'm really interested to see is, again, not knowing too much about the gaming industry and how to build a product, trying to think about what value startup founders are going to get from this conversation. And then you mentioned this rule or this ratio of 60-30-10. So if you don't mind kind of explaining a little bit more how it helped with the product development, and then we can talk a little bit more about the actual like...
Speaker 3 (18:24.532)
Is there an MVP? How do you actually go to market? What does that product look like?
Yeah, that's a very interesting rule. I read it somewhere. I got stuck to it and I was thinking how can I apply it to what I do. The thing with creating a video game for your audience is it is very important that you create something that your audience will embrace quickly, which means that there has to be something they're familiar with.
so they can start playing it immediately. If you create something completely new, never seen before, there's a chance that most of your potential customers won't notice that they're going to be interested in your game because they do not know the concept. So the rule that you mentioned, 60-30-10, is actually the best applied when you create a product like a video game.
where you take 60 % of some already known and proven good concept that already exists. 30 % is going to be already known concept but improved, something that is already good but you improve it. And those 10 % is pure innovation. It means that you will use something that was never seen in this type of the game and you add it.
just for this innovation flavor.
Speaker 2 (19:58.786)
The most difficult part.
Those 10 % are most difficult.
It's almost like the opposite of what you hear a lot of people focus a lot on the innovation part, like be very different, try to find the white space, create something completely different versus with the gaming it actually makes sense because one thing we're going to talk about later is the whole actual user behavior of you don't want them to feel overwhelmed by the game and there has to be some familiarity and building off of that so it's very different from the traditional.
It's very different, I think, from the mainstream narrative. But when you look at the startups, I think it can be applied to startups as well. Because all of them would say, we are an Airbnb for X or a Uber for X. that's what they are also in a way implementing.
That's what you should be doing. But a lot of people feel like they preach the innovate, try something, do something completely different when it all comes down to simplicity of refining something that already works and just adding a little bit of innovative.
Speaker 1 (20:50.318)
Exactly. There's a lot of inspiration around us. It's important that you just see something that can be improved or innovated in a way that has never been seen.
Just to add on this, for me, Maria, I've been also lucky to collaborate with Maria and within the gaming industry on some projects. And for me, when I drilled down a bit deeper, think the main, the biggest difference when we talk about building a tech business and building a gaming business, there are two differences, for me, that are the biggest, but I'll just mention one now, is...
the fact that it's very difficult to do any type of user testing, like to do things the lean way in terms of that you have to build a game or at least one level as it should look. There are very little shortcuts. It's not like you're building just single feature just to see whether people will use it or anything like.
any types of MVPs users can. Yeah, yeah. So in gaming there's that doesn't exist. So you have to. It does exist. It does, but.
product.
Speaker 1 (22:08.511)
But it takes, I mean, you have to build a large percentage of the project.
It's not like in the... So you started building a mobile game which you had no experience in and building it in this way from...
was just playing actually mobile games back then because they were starting to be popular. They were already popular. Like the first game that we created was influenced by my taste in games back then. Then I also was playing mobile games a lot.
The concept that we chose actually came out of a brainstorming session between my colleagues and me. Then we researched if there are any good quality games with that concept. We realized that there are only pure copies of the original concept, nothing innovative enough, nothing special, nothing modern enough, because the concept was already, I don't know, 50.
13 years old back then. And I was confident that I can do something with it, that I can create something that is interesting enough, but modern enough so that the audience nowadays is gonna embrace it. I had no idea how to do it. I had no idea if I'm gonna manage it. But that was the idea that I was led by. Back then,
Speaker 1 (23:44.992)
I also didn't know that actually we can test the audience or how can we test the audience or what are the metrics that we need to take care of and see the first indications of whether the game is good, is going to be good or not. So out of this perspective, I can tell you that for a video game, for a mobile game, you need to create a vertical slice of the game.
which contains all.
You're gaming people. Vertical slice. I actually know what that is. I know, that's why. Exactly.
It's like the MVP of a video game, but it really needs to contain all the main features that your game is going to have. That's the only way you can measure that it's playable, that you can advertise, know, bring on users and measure their behavior in your
Playable, actually.
Speaker 2 (24:46.008)
So how long it took for you to build a vertical slice.
maybe seven or eight months, something like that, eight months. That was also one decision that we made back then. Let's do something that we can quickly see if it works or not.
weekly, seven, eight months. That's why I it. I know it's gaming. That's what I like. think the timelines, those types of things are very different when you talk about the tech business and gaming business.
Gaming in the Sudan.
Speaker 1 (25:20.878)
Yeah, actually the decision was, you know, let's fail fast if we have to fail. So I think eight months ago, that was back in 2016. That's why I cannot really remember all the details of the timeline, but I think it was like eight months or something. With the PC games, first three projects that we did, it was really important that you have someone who is going to publish your game because otherwise,
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:50.67)
you're most likely not going to get your game to the audience. You needed a publisher for their distribution channels, marketing budgets, and all the other stuff that goes with that, so someone can actually see that your game exists. With mobile games, we wanted to go differently. We wanted to do the self-publishing, which is also not a very popular...
model even nowadays. mean nowadays especially. But we published our game on our own.
How does self-publishing look? Like what does that practically?
Well, back then, since this is the mobile game, we are talking about the App Store and Google Play Store. Back then, in 2016, Zoya knows that best because she was working later on that... fighting for that. Back then, you were not able to register a merchant account on Google Play Store or App Store if you're based in Serbia.
Fighting.
Speaker 1 (27:00.27)
Actually, we got that option in 2020. think for Google Play Store, Google Play Store was 2020 and I think App Store 2021. It was just recent. So, back then, it was really difficult to do that on your own. So, you have to the entities somewhere, registered somewhere abroad.
sooner one.
Speaker 1 (27:28.046)
so you can be in the business. Also, I must say that those are all the stuff that you are doing for the first time. You have no one to ask how to do that. You can just try to Google it, try to find someone who already got that path to share you some advice.
And that's actually the question about publishing and this story is the second biggest difference that I would say between the gaming and the tech startups because through publishers you're actually outsourcing marketing. It's like with its own budget as well so you also get a funding but I think it's more common in gaming that you have a publisher which is at the same time your investor in a way and your marketing agency and that's something
Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:18.507)
And you're always hoping that there is some know-how that your publisher is going to share with you. And you're praying for that as a big part of it. And it never happens.
You hope so that next time you don't need a publisher. But you decided to do basically the entire marketing for the agent, for the game.
One arrow. Even though I had no idea how to do it. I was actually not thinking about that up until we finished the game.
exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:54.53)
This is Maria who previously said you have to be Russian.
Here's my question. So you decided to forego the publisher and you decided to do all the marketing, everything, basically on your own. So basically, essentially, if we're translating it, it's like the go-to-market. How did you get to those first users? What were the steps, as comfortable as you like going, the failures, the lessons learned of the experience of actually going to market without a publisher?
I think that the most important thing to be said here is that you simply have to be open to every option that comes to you. Otherwise, if you stick only with what's most popular and then brings most to you and everyone says that to you, you're probably going to fail because you know nothing about it. You're a rookie, so you have no idea how to do it. But I must take a step back.
It was literally, we finished the game, I was not thinking about the users up until that point. Okay, we finished it, we published it. Who was? We had, I don't know.
Basically you built it and you expected people to come.
Speaker 1 (30:07.478)
Well, yeah. I had no idea how to get to 100 users. I mean, we had, you know, 10, 15 downloads. was mostly friends and family. I showed it on my social media and that was it. And then I started Googling.
You put it on the app store and then...
Speaker 3 (30:14.126)
is going to be a good case to
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:22.552)
You shared it on your social media.
Speaker 1 (30:33.366)
Like I said, I was doing the product, I was doing the game development and the, not sorry, not the game development, game design. Game design, I was doing the level design, everything around it. And then I had to switch to something that I never did before. And I realized that there was something called the, we had no money for the paid user acquisition, it was not an option for us back then.
more the question actually of knowledge than the money. So let's do something organically. And there was the search engine optimization in the web space. There is something called the App Store optimization in the mobile space. And back then, it was still working. Nowadays, it doesn't make any difference. But back then, I think I was lucky enough that we
At that time, you were the geek, the early adopter of App Store optimization.
Exactly. The great thing with it, comparing to the search engine optimization, is that everything that you tweak actually is visible almost instantly. So you can measure whether your steps work or not, change them, edit them, and make the perfect combination of keywords and screenshots of your game and everything in that.
What is like the weirdest or the thing you tweaked and you saw like some result that you weren't expecting?
Speaker 1 (32:17.75)
Well, the keywords, I would say. Realizing which are the keywords that are high quality users, by which I mean people who are going to stick with the game for a long time, are going to use to search.
Everything
Speaker 2 (32:25.12)
That's all.
Speaker 2 (32:35.31)
What I love here is we mentioned it several times already is not in this podcast but in other podcasts and I Love hearing it again is how when you are when you have an engineering brain, which is Most common for founders from this region that they are they're coming from engineering background like yourself when you have that mindset you actually are more inclined to when it comes to marketing to do this
data-driven approach and that means, okay, I'll test, this is what I assume you were doing. You had an Excel spreadsheet and then this is what happens with this. These keywords, this is what happens with this screenshot. And then you came up to the winning formula. So basically all of your users, first users, came with you hacking the way the App Store optimizations.
Exactly. It grew organically. Like I said, it was a while ago so I cannot remember the exact numbers. But what I know, what I remember, I think that it was February when we published the game first. Already on May 1st, we were profitable. It was three of us. We were profitable, fully profitable with what we did.
It means that some people not only played our game, but they started spending money for the game.
So how did you, when you started being profitable, how did you move from organic to paid and when that happened?
Speaker 1 (34:16.045)
Well, that's when the analytics kicks in with the mobile games, which is a really important part of the game. With this type of games, the most important thing is to create additional content all the time, so you can give your users actually materials so they can stay and play longer.
new levels.
Speaker 1 (34:45.151)
Actually, you analyze everything within your game. You analyze how often your players get back to the game, how long do they stay in your game. It's called sessions, how long their session is, how many daily sessions do they have, I don't know how much money do they spend in the game if they spend any money, where they churn, where they stop playing, why.
you try to figure out why they're stop playing, et cetera. So there are many, many things that you can analyze within your game. But if we are talking about that early beginnings of my mobile game development process, I didn't know any of this. I was just realizing that there is something called user retention that you have to stick to if you want to.
realize whether your game is growing or not. So that's something that you learn over time. And if I may add one piece of advice for any newcomers to the industry or any other tech business, what I didn't know back then and no one told me, and I think that our progress would be much faster if I knew that, just find some advisor, find some mentor, find someone.
who already was there where you are at the moment. Because your role does not have to be that long like mine was. Because I was trying to figure out where...
At some point you did get an advice.
Speaker 1 (36:23.822)
But it was much later. Now from this point I think it should have happened earlier.
But you are talking this from the basically perspective of even your own insights. Did you expect, like when you got an advisor, obviously a reputable one that obviously knew their job, but when you got them, did they help you more than you expected? Was it? Yeah.
actually they helped much more than I expected. It was complete game changer for us. For the team, for the product growth, for every segment of our business, it was actually a game changer. The best part is that you don't get something completely new. It's most of the stuff that you hear is something that
that is already on your mind, you just simply do not know how to put it.
the constant frustration of any business and any entrepreneur. know that there are things you have to fix. It's just that easy.
Speaker 3 (37:41.102)
booster in a game. you go.
Yeah, exactly. You just need someone to show you the way. That's mostly.
And then if I don't mind just one small step back question from a marketing perspective. But I'm not asking a marketing tactical question. How do you define retention within a game? Because normally retention is somebody that stops paying for something. But in this case, you're saying some people pay, some people don't. How long do they normally stay? Is the goal to keep them on as many sessions or as time? Like how do you identify what retention is? And back to that question on like how, who's like a good...
The best quality kind of user.
The retention in a mobile game is purely meant for returning users, returning the user in the game. It doesn't have anything to do with monetization part. So retention is the number one KPI that you have to measure. There are many analytics softwares that you use for that.
Speaker 1 (38:48.206)
Retention is purely how often does a player get back to your game. The most important days are day one, which is the day after the installation, day three, day seven, day 28. And then you can get back and check out what's going on on the first three days, on the first seven days, etc. The more you deep dive, the more you...
understand how your user behaves. But the most important thing is how often do they get back. And there are some numbers, for example, they differ from type to type of the game, it depends on the niche. But for example, if your day 7 retention, if I remember correctly,
is lower than 35 % for a particular type of the game, it probably means that your game cannot even be corrected to be a success. So there are some indicators that you can rely on for this. When it comes to monetization, you need to have good retention.
if you want to achieve some kind of monetization. But it's also a completely different path within the game.
Right. And then my question is regarding user feedback. So in terms of improving the game, and even if for attention, let's say at a certain point somebody stops coming back, is it because it's too difficult? Is it because they don't know how to get to the next level? Do you push the boosters? What's kind of that like...
Speaker 1 (40:32.748)
Yeah, there are many different situations. User feedback, you gather it from the stores, the App Store and Google Play Store reviews. If there is some pattern in those reviews, then you realize that there is an issue that you should take care of and understand what's going on with that. You can also...
get the focus groups of your potential customers and ask them questions. Look at them while they're playing your game and realize where do they click. You can make them, for example, to talk to you while they're playing the game about every emotion that they get. And that way you realize where you're wrong. And believe me, you are probably wrong.
more than you ever understand that you are.
Yeah, it's really good.
It's really good. what was the other part?
Speaker 3 (41:37.868)
The question about just with the retention piece, if you see that somebody is not coming back like repeating, do you do something to prompt them to come back?
in the game that you can do for get them back. Give them something for free, give them free boosters, free lives. And there are also different tiers of different types of players. So when your game is more advanced in terms of realizing those types of players, then you can offer to them different incentives that you...
better.
Speaker 3 (41:55.054)
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (42:13.78)
might think that will get them back to your...
My always advice for general startup founders is that they start hanging out with gaming founders. Because the way at some point, obviously not at the very beginning, now even I think some people start even with analytics.
at the same moment they launched the game. And now I think that knowledge pool is even larger. But I think that your focus on metrics and measuring things is non-negotiable. And it's not like 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. It's day one, day two, day seven, day 15. And I think it's very good for the mindset because what we are all talking about is usually you start something from your gut.
in the sense of you played the game, you sensed it, you did a little market research, but it wasn't really, really huge. But when it starts showing some results, that's the moment where you can't work with your gut anymore. That's the moment where you need to start being as scientific as possible. And I think that in the gaming, it's very clear. think even the most more...
the youngest founders are aware of that. It has become, and I think in the startup space, it's not yet that.
Speaker 3 (43:42.414)
But it should be. think this is a great tab as a study, like as a precedent that no matter what industry you're in, like data and looking at retention and looking at these metrics, even identifying who's your key user and then understanding what behaviors you want them to do. And that's why I'm asking these questions because then whether you're tech, whether you're accounting software, you want to know what it is that you're trying to prompt them to do and what those mechanisms are.
What are they doing inside? And now I would like to move a bit further from you building the games to you building ecosystems. You exited to Desperados and now you are on your own journey as you you're doing advisory. But for me, the most interesting part of your giving back in a way is that you are advising founders.
both here, you are engaged in Catapult as well and I know in some other local initiatives, but you also do it internationally in Asia, across Europe, I know that you've been with Google for startups. So what is the biggest difference, if you see any, if you'd say there is a difference between regional startup founders, how we do things here and how things are done in some other ecosystem?
Actually, I was thinking about, because we were talking about that this would be significant to tell to people about it. And the thing is that I'm really not sure that we can talk about the differences because Google for Startups and Indie Games Accelerator, they are both programs that
to not give any kind of grants to the founders who are participating. And the Catapult program that you have mentioned that in my opinion, funds. Yeah, in my opinion is currently the best accelerator program that we have here locally. There is actually a grant they're giving. So the motivation of the people who are applying for the program
Speaker 2 (45:39.062)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:55.264)
is different. Also, the selection process is much different because on Catapult there are several tiers of actually selection that you have to pass so that you can actually qualify to get into the program because the stakes are much higher. And on the other hand, with Google for Startups, they're having each year
different topics of the programs. For example, last year I think that there was the, of course, AI topic, there was a climate change topic, there was women founders, were black founders.
They're trying to be more social.
Exactly, exactly. So I think that the main motivation of those who are applying for Google for startups programs is actually to match make with someone who is working at some great company such like Google is or YouTube or whatever and talk to them. and I must say that what I can see from this perspective is that with
catapult, there are more capable mentors than with the...
Speaker 2 (47:20.032)
Mentors. Yeah. Okay.
because most of them are business founders. And that's one really important perspective if you're trying to advise someone who is starting their own business or already has a business that needs to develop. But with Google for Startups, you can be a mentor even if you are not a C-level person, but you're some team lead or have a specialty in some fields. So that's the main difference. That's why
I love how you are a data person actually because you said, you know, those two groups, are not, we can't compare it. It's like you can't compare apple and oranges. Okay, I get it. Then I'll move to my next question. What, when you are working with startups, no matter where they are, we are a global, we are one world. What do you feel is like your advice that they,
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:20.008)
most rarely listen to or that's hardest to follow for them.
Well, I think that this rational approach is actually the most difficult. My approach when mentoring a startup or a person is that I always try not to solve their problems directly, but to try to set them up for the future where they are going to have to think on their own when I'm not advising them anymore.
sort of capacity building approach. So I'm not giving them direct advice, I'm just trying to explain how open they should be to all the circumstances that they have at the moment and how to understand which one is right to pick without being too emotional about abandoning something that they felt it was really great for them.
So you're trying to actually instill in them this data-driven way of thinking.
Kind of, yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:30.156)
Is there anything that when you mentor some of these startups, is it clear to you which one you think is going to make it the whole way or which one has like... What are some of those if you don't mind talking about like the...
It is.
Well, I think that the first and main indicator is whether founder is coachable or not. Because there are many, many, many people who are really great and really open to any kind of advice and perceive advice as, you know, pure gold because you are someone who actually had already had all those problems that they're having right now. So they are completely aware of that.
But there is one group of founders who think they know best. They know everything and they are not open. They are simply not coachable. according to my experience, those are probably set for failure eventually.
resistance.
Speaker 2 (50:21.272)
not culture.
Speaker 2 (50:34.688)
Unless in the beginning they could be lucky. And I see it here in the region especially that people often confuse this self-esteem with grit. And I think we are just fine-tuning what's what. So that will be fun to watch what will be happening next. Okay, I think...
Rapid fire? We are ready for the last segment of this interview. Those are the rapid fire questions. Alex is holding the notes. So, Maria, rules are simple. You are giving quick answers, but those are not easy questions. It's either or. And usually the answer would be both, but try to feel like you have to choose one.
And if you need to give an explanation, like a brief one.
Yes, but not for all of them. I'll start you when it's enough.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (51:32.814)
So the first one is building a great product or building a great business.
great products.
Global First Expansion or Regional?
All the.
Excellent. I say excellent because it answers another question that we I'm not biased, I swear. Work-life balance or hustle culture?
Speaker 1 (51:57.358)
Very difficult question because I was always part of this hustle culture, but now I would say work-life balance definitely. So seasonal. Yeah.
Speed or precision? Speed. Excellent. Do you think that's specific to gaming or would you say that generally? Building for long term or building for exit?
general.
Speaker 1 (52:18.72)
long term. Exit will come eventually.
Yeah, agreed. You can answer this one but we'll do it one more time. Feel fast or play it safe.
fail fast.
And the last one is lean startup or heavy investment in product development.
Both, I would say. Out of this perspective, I would say it depends on the industry. But I cannot choose one. It depends on the circumstances.
Speaker 1 (53:25.016)
There's a lot of fluff and that's what I don't like.
Speaker 1 (53:31.906)
necessarily out.
Speaker 3 (53:54.766)
Can I dive into the first question? I'm very curious in terms of building a great product versus building a great business. Why did you choose product?
because I believe that having a great product will enable you to build a great business.
that long-term approach. Any last parting lessons learned, any advice that you have for fellow founders or how you would like them to approach advisory, any kind of best practices?
I would say also there's one thing that I am noticing nowadays is that a lot of founders are trying to find answers in books, to read as many books as they can and go and do everything by the book. Which I think reading books, business books is great, but it's not going to give you answers about your business mostly. I think that
Guilty.
Speaker 1 (54:54.274)
this flexibility and talking to as many people as you can is actually what can shape your success, I would say.
Speaker 1 (55:53.944)
Exactly, it's more like don't get obsessed with finding every answer. If I read 20 books, I would be more successful in my business than if I read two.
Those books are based off people who went out and actually did those things. Exactly. she'd rather go and test it and like you said, fail fast versus trying to find like a textbook to answer to everything.
This is my approach. mean, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best one, but that's how I like things to be done.
Speaker 1 (56:34.222)
In the of the universe, it's not possible. It's not possible to follow all the rules.
Speaker 3 (56:44.334)
Thank you for teaching me about the gaming industry now. feel I know a lot more than when I started.
Thank you for having me once again. I had a really great time.
Thank you very much.