Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

Whatever your message, the manner in which you deliver it is just as important.

You found the right words. You picked the right time to say them. You even tailored them to your audience. Why did your message fall flat? “It's your tone,” says Jefferson Fisher.

Fisher is a trial attorney, New York Times bestselling author, podcast host, and one of the most-followed experts in communication today. From handling high-stakes communication in the courtroom to navigating everyday conversations, he says successful messaging isn’t just about what you say, but how you say it. “It’s not your words, it’s your tone,” he says, “The words might be right, but the way you [say them] — that's what ends up controlling the day. Tone controls everything.”

In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Fisher and host Matt Abrahams explore how to set the right tone in all kinds of communication. Whether you're navigating conflict, giving and receiving feedback, or just trying to connect, Fisher offers practical techniques for ensuring the manner of your communication matches what you mean.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:45) - Stop Winning Arguments
  • (04:19) - Ask, Don’t Persuade
  • (04:50) - Defuse Tension Fast
  • (05:57) - Read the Room
  • (07:53) - Observing vs. Absorbing
  • (09:25) - Framing Conversations
  • (11:38) - Fix Digital Communication
  • (13:18) - Improve Your Tone
  • (16:10) - Break People-Pleasing
  • (17:35) - Setting Clear Boundaries
  • (23:03) - The Final Three Questions
  • (26:04) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Jefferson Fisher
Board Certified Attorney | Author | The Jefferson Fisher Podcast Host

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: Your
tone is your trademark.

It's not just what you say and how you say
it, it's the tone in which you deliver it.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I look forward to
speaking with Jefferson Fisher.

Jefferson is a Texas Board
certified trial attorney and

the founder of the Fisher Firm.

Jefferson teaches people how to navigate
high stakes conversations by prioritizing

connection and clarity over winning.

As a compliment to his New York
Times bestselling book, The Next

Conversation, he's now releasing The
Next Conversation Workbook to further

help people apply his principles.

Welcome Jefferson.

I am really excited for this conversation.

It's rare that I get a chance to
geek out with somebody on all things

communication, so thanks for being here.

Jefferson Fisher: Absolutely.

Thanks for having me.

I mean, come on a conversation
about conversations.

Let's go.

Matt Abrahams: So shall we get started?

Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: Alright.

So you're a trial lawyer by training,
yet you've famously said that we

should stop trying to win arguments.

What's the approach we
should take instead and why?

Jefferson Fisher: As soon as you try to
start winning arguments, you're losing.

People think that in litigation,
in the trial world, that's all

you do is win arguments, but
that's really not what you do.

You only have so much limited
information to go off of, and so a

lot of the times what you're left with
is saying, okay, instead of trying to

win an argument, what can I do, what
I say is arguments are not something

to win, they're something to unravel.

It's like a line, a piece
of thread, or a water hose.

You get knots in it, you get kinks in
it, and the better and more efficient

you get, the faster you get at
identifying and undoing the knot, the

better the conversation's going to be.

So instead of having to win, it's this
mentality of having something to learn.

So I say, rather than having something
to prove, have something to learn.

Matt Abrahams: So it has to do
with the overall approach, right?

Take this approach of learning, and
it's not a competition, it's more about

connection and really understanding
the other person's perspective.

Is that a fair way to characterize it?

Jefferson Fisher: Yeah.

I mean, who wants to be around the
person who always has to be right?

The person who always has to have
the last word, the person who is just

the brick wall that can never hear
another person's opinion, who wants

to live in their own echo chamber.

It does not build anything.

It only decreases everything.

That the only thing you've won with
that kind of person is contempt.

You've won resentment.

You've won awkward silence.

There's nothing good that
comes from winning an argument.

Matt Abrahams: So how best does one
approach a conversation to learn?

Is it inquiry through questions?

Is it storytelling?

How can we actually execute on that idea?

Jefferson Fisher: Yeah,
you ask more and talk less.

A lot of the times it's using clarifying
questions to be able to probe and to get

somebody else to share their perspective.

It's setting the standard at not
winning, not setting the standard at

changing their mind, setting the standard
to understanding their perspective.

Matt Abrahams: And there's
a big distinction between

understanding and agreeing, right?

We listen for understanding,
and that allows us to then begin

to foster that communication to
perhaps move towards agreement.

I particularly like asking open
questions, help me understand why,

what's going on for you there?

Do you have specific questions you like to
lean into to help with that understanding?

Jefferson Fisher: Depends on the context.

If I can tell I'm in a conversation
that seems to be getting friction and

I can tell that the other person is
starting to get frustrated and things

are starting to get bogged down, I'll
usually ask, what's coming up for you?

It's a way of making sure that
I'm communicating in that moment

that I can tell something else
is bubbling up underneath.

That something is happening deeper
than what's on the surface, and I've

always got an answer back from it.

It's far better than what's wrong
with you, but if I say, what's coming

up for you that's indicating, hey,
I can see something rising within

you that's causing friction here,
so why don't we talk about it?

But the key here is not to use
questions that begin with why.

Why it's a lot more accusatory.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Why questions can really
put somebody on the spot.

And I like your idea of
what's bubbling up for you.

It strikes me that what you're doing
in those moments though, is you're

really observing, not only the
communication, but how it's being said.

So a lot of us struggle with taking
that step back to be monitoring the

communication that's going on while we're
in the midst of having the communication.

You know, those of us who study this talk
about meta awareness, the awareness of

our communication as we're having it.

Are there certain cues and
clues that you look for?

Is it faster speaking,
more emotional language?

What are some of the things that you're
looking for to show that there's some

tension building up, some friction?

Jefferson Fisher: I pay
attention to pace a lot.

How fast are they
pushing the conversation?

Faster they push it, the more
they typically want it over with.

You know, if I can pause, have that
kind of, what's coming up for you?

What am I missing?

How's that hitting you?

These open-ended questions that
breed space, because sometimes that's

what I'm most trying to pick up on.

What's the rhythm of the conversation?

That's what I'm looking for and that
tends to tell me if the person I'm talking

to is, are we in the pocket together?

Are we connecting, or are
we on different frequencies?

Like they're on FM and I'm still on AM.

There's no way we're gonna be
able to reach each other, we're

not gonna connect, you know?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

I really like the idea of pace,
because you're talking about it,

I think, at two different levels.

There's the pace at which somebody
is speaking, speaking quickly,

but then there's the pace of
pushing the content forward.

There's, as you said, a rhythm to
communication and conversation, and

you can feel when somebody's really
trying to drive and push it forward.

And both levels, both types of pace,
I think are insightful to see if

the person is agitated, concerned
if there's friction building up.

So you need to be cognizant and
focusing on that as well as just being

engaged in the communication itself.

You know, I've read that you have a mantra
you like to say, observe, don't absorb.

Many of our listeners have a tendency,
especially when constructive feedback

is sent their way, to really feel it,
to take it on and perhaps get defensive.

What advice and guidance do you have to
help us really be present and observe

without absorbing something and perhaps
reacting too soon or too negatively?

Jefferson Fisher: What I mean is you get
to watch a conversation happen without

absorbing all of it and deciding that,
well, what they say is just who I am.

So if you were to have the mindset
of there is something for me

here if I'm willing to listen,
then things tend to go better.

I know that when you get feedback
from somebody, they say, don't

take criticism from somebody
you wouldn't take advice from.

It's a balance between hearing what they
say and knowing are they meaning it for

your good or ultimately for your peril.

Are they wanting to actually
try and build you up?

Is it something that you
just feel sensitive about?

Did they hit something on a nerve
or are you actually interested

in trying to build on with it?

So it's, it's all contextual.

Matt Abrahams: I really like
everything you said, but the thing

that really stood out to me was
there's something to learn here.

And when you look for the learning,
especially if it's coming from a source

you respect, it can be very helpful.

And that can help take away perhaps
some of the initial defensiveness that

one feels, and approaching it from
a place of gratitude and expressing

your gratitude and saying thanks
can really help with some of that.

I wanna move to a different topic.

Often our meetings and
conversations can go off the rails.

They don't go the way we expected.

You have a framework you
call one frame, one issue.

How can we set appropriate conversational
frames at the beginning, or even before

we begin the conversation, so that we
can manage this and keep it on track in a

way that we want, so we don't have scope
creep or anxiety that comes from that?

Jefferson Fisher: I cannot stand
meetings where you get in, they go, okay,

everybody, we have a lot to cover today.

You never get outta it feeling
like you covered really anything.

You know, because you're too spread thin
rather than going deep on a few issues.

It's applying that same kind of idea,
when you talk about everything, you

talk about nothing at the same time.

So what does a frame do?

Like a picture, it enhances what's in it.

If I can put a frame around the
conversation, it does two things.

One, it enhances the conversation, it
highlights it, it makes it very clear.

Second, what it does is it gets rid of
all the anxiety of the stuff that you

might think we're gonna be talking about.

So if I text you and I say, we
need to talk, and nobody gets that

text and goes, oh, high five, yes.

I can't wait.

Do you see that they need to talk?

It's always terrible, that feeling.

Why?

Because you have all that anxiety
about what are we gonna talk about.

Well, you can remove that anxiety by
using a frame, and I really have it

in three steps is, one, that I tell
somebody what I want to talk about.

Give them the gift of telling
them what you want to talk about.

Don't make them have to ask, tell them
the topic, the subject, whatever it is.

Number two, tell them how you
want the conversation to end.

What's the checkered flag?

Where are you going?

What I like to use is, what I want
to take away from, what do I want

to walk away from the conversation.

And the three I get their buy-in into it.

That's as simple as, sound good?

Does that work?

Can we do that?

'cause once you get that little nod
of, yeah, I'll talk to you about that.

It's like an implicit contract.

They now are bought into what I
committed to talking to this about you.

Now they know I don't
talk about anything else.

There's no other collateral issues.

You have a straight path A to B. I know
exactly what we're gonna talk about.

So it's a way of removing the
difficult from difficult conversations,

and now it's just talking.

Matt Abrahams: It sets expectations,
certainly, and it sets your

vision of what success looks
like, and that can be helpful.

It does require that your conversation
partner or partners go along with it and

have the same ability to focus as you do.

I wanna flip to talking
about digital communication.

You like me, have a digital presence in
your communication and you distinguish

between transmission and connection.

I think many people today, especially
in the world of social media and digital

communication, confuse sending a message
with actually communicating a message.

How does transmission fail us and how
can we create or increase the connective

nature of our communication, especially
in a world where most of our communication

is intermediated by some technology?

Jefferson Fisher: Technology
has allowed us to communicate

with people all over the world.

People you and I would never come
in contact with our entire life.

And so it is pivotal and it's crucial
to still have that technology.

What I would want to see is the
ability to increase the mediums.

So if it's something that somebody
really matters to you, it's not just

communicating digitally on a text or
an email, it's to see them in person.

It's to make a phone call.

It's to write a letter.

Like, diversify communication mediums.

It provides a different touchpoint in
a way that's not gonna be like anything

anybody else can do that's unique to you.

My handwriting's different than
your handwriting, but yet you

can see my personality in the
handwriting, same as yours.

And I know that if you want to
increase what's good about digital

communication is using it to aid and
support rather than using it to detract.

Matt Abrahams: So the take
home message there is if it's

significant and important reach out.

I like your notion of diversify
your channels of communication.

I think there's a lot of
pressure to be efficient and

that efficiency gets in the way.

Your tone is your trademark.

I think that's a very powerful
statement that you make.

And I agree.

Many of us though, are unaware
of the tone of our messages.

We are so fixated on what we're saying
and are we saying it appropriately?

And did I use the right words?

How can you audit your tone to be
aware of how you're coming across?

Jefferson Fisher: Well, you can
say from the practical side, you

record it and you listen to it.

You get comfortable with hearing it.

Many of us are not used to that.

And we'll hear our voice for the
first time and we'll be like,

is that how I really sound?

So you could practically record
it, try to improve it as you want.

You could take coaching, so you
have ways you wanna do that.

I like to apply my tone
to or compare it to music.

So you think about like what band would
match your style of communication.

There are times like if I want you
to listen to me and to slow down, and

if I want to make you uncomfortable,
I'm not going to blast AC/DC.

Or I'm not gonna blast Eminem.

Like I'm not going to do that
if I want you to be comfortable

and ugh, lower your shoulders.

What, I'm gonna put on some easy
listening, I'm gonna put on some singer

songwriter James Taylor type stuff.

And so that's the kind of tone
of like, am I giving you a voice?

So it's trying to find what
song does your voice give?

Because if I want you to be calm,
I'm gonna talk a little bit calmer.

That's the tone is your trademark.

If you're somebody who's brash
and angry and mad all the time,

that's who you're going to become.

Your tone controls everything.

And there's plenty of times you know
it's not your words, it's your tone.

Like how many times have you
probably heard from your mom or

somebody go, I don't like your tone.

It's something within us, or we hear
somebody say something, and the words

might be right, but we go, you know what?

I don't like the way you said that.

That's what ends up controlling the day.

So yeah, tone is
absolutely your trademark.

Matt Abrahams: I really do like
that saying and tone, again, I

think there are two levels here.

There's finding your authentic natural
tone, that's who you are, and that's

where coaching and recording can help you.

But you also were talking about
using tone strategically to

help you reinforce your message.

So if we're having a really serious
conversation I need to reflect on,

what tone do I want to bring to this
conversation or have this conversation

have, and are there ways I can leverage
tone to really reinforce what I'm saying?

And I do think at both
levels it's really important.

Using Tone as a tool is a very
creative and strategic way to help you.

And I appreciate that.

Congratulations on your new workbook.

People who know my work know that
I'm all about practical, tactical

advice and guidance, and a workbook's
a great way to bring that about.

In your new workbook, you
have lots of assessments.

Your initial assessment has you
asking readers if they struggle

with stopping myself from
protecting other people's feelings.

Why do you believe we have this instinct?

And why is this the first
self-assessment in your book?

I could imagine others
things could have come first.

Jefferson Fisher: As a society, we're
afraid to disappoint other people.

We're afraid of their reaction.

So what do you turn to?

You turn to people pleasing and you turn
to making sure that you're always last.

And you give and you give, and you,
you say, I'm not worth anything

unless you think I'm worth anything.

And we tie our identity to how
much we serve is how much we

can be okay with ourselves.

And so that's why I
wanted to start with it.

Is, Hey, let's take a hard look.

Let's have a cold shower for a second.

Are you so focused and so afraid
to disappoint somebody that you'd

be willing to lower the way you see
yourself even just a little bit?

Is that okay with you?

And to kind of have that self-reflective
moment because if you want to improve

how you communicate, I'd say skill
number one is you have to learn to

be okay disappointing some people.

Matt Abrahams: I like that you start
with the internal conversation first.

I think that's a really important
place for people to start.

You know, if you're working on your
communication, working on having

better conversations, start with
that conversation you have yourself,

and look at your motivations.

Are they truly your motivations
or these societal pressures

that you're conforming to?

I like that, and I, and I spent some time
doing the assessment myself, so thank you.

In your workbook, you ask readers
to write an internal manual.

Can you share with us what
this internal manual is?

I don't know that I'd want other people
having my internal manual, but talk

to me about what it is and how it can
help us identify sort of the rules and

procedures that we leverage and use.

Jefferson Fisher: I'd be willing to bet
that most people don't really take an

objective view about how they communicate,
how they choose to communicate.

They invest in a lot of things.

They know how they make their coffee.

They know what goes into X, Y, and Z,
but they don't know how they communicate.

So the idea of a manual is to write down
what you allow and what you don't allow.

Because if you don't, otherwise people
just have a remote control to you.

They have a remote control to your
emotions, to your fears, and to

your insecurities, where they always
know how to what, push your buttons.

But a manual says, no, no, hey,
if you wanna communicate with me,

this is how we're going to do it.

So instead of this idea, like a remote
control would say, you can't talk to

me that way, a manual has this idea
of like, hey, look, if you turn to

page 74, paragraph D, you'll see,
yeah, I don't respond to that volume.

I don't respond to that tone.

That's below my standard of respect.

It's this idea of do you have written
out, for yourself, how I will be

communicated, how I'll be talked to
and how I'm going to communicate.

Do you have any idea at all?

And maybe it's okay to like write it out
and, yeah, it's hard 'cause life happens

and maybe you don't follow it all the time
and there's exceptions and whatnot, but

you need to have some kind of rough idea
of what you will choose to have allowed,

be permitted, who has access to you in
a way that can communicate that matters.

Matt Abrahams: I like this idea of
reflecting on your communication

and thinking about what's
acceptable and unacceptable.

I think in my manual, I'd have to
have several appendices because

different contexts require
different operating procedures.

But I do like the idea of
self-reflection and using the analogy

of a manual makes a lot of sense.

So before we end, I like to ask three
questions of everybody I interview.

One I create just for you, and
two are similar for everybody.

Are you up for that?

Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

So like me, you host a podcast, you write
books, you deliver keynote speeches.

All of this allows us privilege to
interacting with lots of amazing people.

What's one lesson you've learned
from these different situations,

your podcast, your writing, your
keynoting, that's changed the way you

communicate something you've learned?

Jefferson Fisher: We're all still figuring
it out, and I find that no matter who

I'm talking to or where I am, it's easy
to think that they got it all figured

out, and once you really start to
scratch beneath the surface, they don't

really know what they're doing either.

And so you just have to fail enough to
kind of create a pattern of what kind

of works and that's what you go with.

That's what I've learned.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think that's right.

We make this assumption that
everybody else has got this figured

out and we don't, and in fact,
we're all figuring it out together.

I appreciate you sharing.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Jefferson Fisher: I have a friend
whom you probably know, Chris Voss.

And the reason I admire him is
because we did a thing on stage

once and somebody said afterwards,
y'all are kind of like fire and ice.

Like I'm the more softer side.

Chris is not, you know, he, he
is, let's get the deal done and

negotiation and that balances me.

And so I always appreciate that
he'll say something, I go, yeah,

I think that makes a lot of sense.

But in terms of kinda always walking
away with something practical,

that is something that challenges
me, I'd probably say Chris.

Matt Abrahams: Chris is a great guy.

We've had him on the show and both of
you provide really practical, tactical

advice and ways of getting into
and out of communicative situations

that I appreciate, so thank you.

Final question.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Jefferson Fisher: One, regulation.

You have to be able to say things
with control, and you do that not

by controlling the other person,
you do that by controlling yourself.

Two would be discernment, being
able to know what is true and to

speak what is true, to be assertive,
to say things with confidence.

And number three would
be setting direction.

Having a, a goal, setting your intention
of the destination and to create

connection with the other person.

So when you're able to say it with
control, say it with confidence and say

it to connect, I think that's a, a pretty
good recipe for a good conversation.

Matt Abrahams: I agree.

Regulation, discernment, direction,
absolutely key ingredients.

All predicated on what we've talked a
lot about, which is self-reflection,

understanding yourself, being able
to determine where you're coming

from before you try to engage others.

Jefferson, I knew this would
be a really great conversation.

I knew we'd have an opportunity
to really engage in ideas.

I appreciate your input, your insights.

Thank you for the time and
congratulations on the new workbook.

Jefferson Fisher: Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me.

It was great.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about communication
and negotiation, please listen

to episode 228 with Chris Voss.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.

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