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"A LOT with Audra" is the podcast for women juggling big dreams and full lives. Each episode, host, Audra Dinell, Midwestern wife, mom and neurodivergent multi-six figure entrepreneur encourages women to embrace their many roles holistically by living a values-based life with confidence and joy. Through candid discussions, practical strategies and inspiring stories, this podcast is your guide to designing and achieving success without losing yourself in the process.
Ep72
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[00:00:00]
Audra Dinell: [00:01:00] Welcome back to A Lot with Audra. Today we're talking to guest Jenna Bottolfsen, and Jenna and I have known each other for a handful of years, and I've seen her go through some real ups and downs when it comes to life and entrepreneurship. She has been so kind to be with us today to share her journey, and I absolutely know you are going to have some amazing takeaways.
Jenna is a career and leadership coach who helps people understand what makes them valuable and how to communicate that with confidence. After 25 years in corporate HR, she now spends her time helping individuals build clarity, trust themselves, and take the next step in their careers with purpose.
As the owner of Wallace Associates, Jenna works closely with the individuals navigating leadership growth or career transitions by helping them tell their story, refine their resume and LinkedIn presence, and approach [00:02:00] networking with confidence.
Detours Are Signs
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Audra Dinell: My conversation today with Jenna reminded me of this beautiful Cleo Wade poem that I read in her latest book, In a World of Sunrises.
It goes like this: Detours are signs too. Just because a sign is inconvenient does not mean it is wrong or insignificant. Detours can often lead us to needed lessons, experiences, and new people we would have otherwise missed. Divine timing is real and includes our perceived delays. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jenna.
Milestone Catch Up
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Audra Dinell: Okay, Jenna, welcome to the podcast. Thank
Jenna Bottolfsen: you for having me. This is so exciting.
Audra Dinell: It is exciting. And I have to share, we met six years ago. Mm-hmm. And I just turned 40 and you just turned 50. So right before we were recording, we were [00:03:00] reflecting on where we were six years ago when we met versus these big milestone birthdays.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah. Yeah. And I was talking about my dau- it was COVID, my boys were in high school, and my youngest was in second grade. We were trying to figure all that out, and your boys were little babies.
Audra Dinell: They were, and they were with me all the time. Yes. Yes. And now my youngest is in first grade by the time we, at the time we're recording this.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Oh my gosh. And mine, we're looking at cars. That's wild. My
Audra Dinell: youngest.
Jenna Bottolfsen: It hurts my heart.
Audra Dinell: Oh, okay. They grow
Jenna Bottolfsen: so fast.
Audra Dinell: So you have been on such a journey since I have known you, and where you were when we met versus where you are now. Will you just kinda take us through that timeline?
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah.
Covid Leap And Return
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Jenna Bottolfsen: So it was COVID, and I, not knowing the future, I had left my corporate role, corporate identity, and really took that first entrepreneurial leap.
So in February of 2020, I went and got [00:04:00] certified as a business coach, and did all the stuff. I went to Denver for a week came back, and then we all know what happened March 13th of 2020. Yeah. The world shut down. And I had three kids in school and, you know, I just think things work for the right reason.
I was, I was trying to start this business. It didn't really go as planned, but it, I was in the right place for that season because I, a second grader trying to do school from home.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And so then I really worked at that for about a year and then went back to corporate HR because it was just the right thing to do.
And I remember telling my husband, "It's not- Never that I will do, you know, my own thing. It's just not right now.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Jenna Bottolfsen: So then fast-forward, the boys were out of school, kind of on their own, you know, doing their own thing, off our payroll pretty much. Yeah.
Buying Wallace Associates
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Jenna Bottolfsen: And a new opportunity came to me which was almost kind of through you again.
It was just so funny. Chris Wallace, who owned Wallace [00:05:00] Associates, and I had referred employees to her when they got laid off, both a long time ago and then in my corporate career. And we were at a thread mentoring event and having cocktails at Belmont, and she said, "Girl, I am in my 70s, and I don't wanna do this anymore.
I'd love to find someone to buy my business." And I just, my heart exploded, and I said, "I always wanted to be you when I grew up." I do too. She laughed at me, and she laughed at me, and she said, "Well, let's start talking." So it was about a year that we had coffee and kind of talked about the transition and how that would work.
And so now as of May 2026, it'll be open three years under me.
Audra Dinell: Congratulations.
Jenna Bottolfsen: So yeah, so helping people figure out their c- career trajectory and what to do after layoffs and what to do when they wanna change. And I mean, it just feels like the exact right place because I've always, you know, been on the other side [00:06:00] of recruiting, so I feel like I can bring a different perspective.
But I mean, it's just exactly where I wanted to be at this stage of my life.
Resilience After Setbacks
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Audra Dinell: So I love so many different things about your story, and one of the first is you left this identity that you'd had for decades to take a leap of faith on yourself, and it didn't work out.
And most people, or some people could think, you know, that's the end. But it really isn't if you don't let it.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Oh, no.
Audra Dinell: And just, like, your resilience through that and doing what you needed to do at home and back in your vocation until the time and the opportunity was right. And I feel like you walked with such grace through the whole- Yeah
season. And so to see you in the role that you were meant to do, three years in business, that's such an accomplishment, and I think just such a testimony to people who have tried something and it didn't work out, but it's still, like, [00:07:00] on their heart. Mm-hmm. You can try again
Jenna Bottolfsen: Oh, yeah. I think every, And I wouldn't even wanna use the word failure, but every, everything is a learning opportunity.
Like, I mean, could my first attempt at entrepreneurship have worked? Maybe, but it was COVID, so you know, I, I don't even... There was lots of lessons. I learned how easy it was. I learned it's not as scary as it seems to start a business. It's not as scary as it seems to put yourself out there, and it really wasn't as scary as it seemed t- to let go of that corporate identity.
Audra Dinell: Mm.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Because, yes, for so long it was like, "Okay, I wanna be the leader. I wanna be the manager. I wanna be the director. I wanna be the C-suite," and that's what I thought was the path. And no, I'm gonna start over, and I'm gonna be the newest or the first or the freshest or the whatever, and it was... It wasn't as scary as I thought.
You know, I, I, I debate with people a lot about what [00:08:00] comes first, courage or action, and you know, sometimes I think it's one or the other, but I really do think taking those steps is what gives you the courage to keep going.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Five Seconds Of Courage
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Audra Dinell: You know, on that courage versus action thought, those two also, when I think about those two words, I also think about confidence. A lot of times in my life, my confidence has come from taking imperfect action.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yes.
Audra Dinell: And I think for me, it's like that three-step process of like I have to just have a sliver of courage.
Like, I'm still scared- Yeah ... but I'm gonna do the thing, but I'm not gonna need to be courageous for like two hours. I'm going to need to be courageous for 20 minutes and hit send on the email or walk into the event where I don't know anyone, or-
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah ...
Audra Dinell: you know, just that crazy courage for a short burst of time because then that's kind of rolling you into the action.
And if you do that on [00:09:00] repeat- Mm-hmm ... for me, that's been a huge recipe for confidence. I mean, we can talk about confidence coming from multiple different things, but I love, I just love that thought that you work with people on.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Oh, I... It's funny, and I probably heard it from you years ago, but I use it all the time with clients and just say, "I know it feels a little scary to reach out to someone at a company where you wanna apply for a job, but-" It takes five seconds of insane courage to type that email and send it off, or to reach out and say, "Hey, I'm interested in a role."
And i- that's what I say. You don't have to have courage forever- Yeah ... or for two hours, just five seconds of insane courage to push the send- Yeah ... and, or walk in the door, or shake the hand, or look them in the eye, and then the courage will come.
Audra Dinell: Yeah. And it's like if you have to prepare for the thing, you can just pretend like it's not actually happening, right?
Like, if it's an email, you want to send an email, you can just write the email and be thinking, "I'm never gonna send this, so I'm just gonna make this. I'm [00:10:00] gonna write it. I'm gonna get it the way I want." So the courage doesn't have to be there during that time. Right. It's just the actual hitting send, right?
Yes. Where it's like that's the, the moment. And you know, there's that famous quote, so I know I'm not the first person to think about that thought, but there's that famous quote about it only takes, you know, 20 seconds of courage to change your life. I don't know who said it. I
Jenna Bottolfsen: don't either, but I love it.
Audra Dinell: Me too. Yeah,
Jenna Bottolfsen: and I use it a lot. We should probably look that
Audra Dinell: up. Yeah, right. We should. We should.
Audra First Business Lesson
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Audra Dinell: So your story reminds me a lot of mine. When I was in my 20s, I started my first business, and it failed horribly because I put so much effort into the planning and the launch, and zero effort into what came next.
I started a social media company in 2012 with a partner who was also a friend, and we talked a little bit about that. So that was tricky because there were other dynamics on the line there. Mm-hmm. [00:11:00] But we knew social media. We were doing it for businesses. We were excited to offer that as a service, and in 2012, that wasn't widely being offered.
And we put so much time into, like, the packages and the marketing and the branding. Oh. Right? And just all this planning. And so then it was launch day, and we launched, and we had no pipeline. And I had not ever had to go out and earn a paycheck by selling- Mm ... you know, my whole life. And to have that crash and burn, I did get one client, so I think I ended up at least breaking even.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah.
Audra Dinell: To have that crash and burn was such a gift, and one of the things that I heard you say is, like, you started this thing, and while it didn't work out for whatever reason, whether it be external factors or not, you got to keep the lessons. Yeah. And I, I feel the same. It's like the second time I- went into entrepreneurship, my eyes were more open
Jenna Bottolfsen: Oh, for sure.
And even every role I [00:12:00] ever had, you know, I could say, "Ooh, I wish I wouldn't have taken that job," or, "I wouldn't have taken that job," but I think every single role has set me up for where I am today. Mm. I mean, you can take a lesson from all of them.
Audra Dinell: I agree.
Jenna Bottolfsen: So, you know, whether it was the technical aspects of putting in a new HR system, or whether it was leading a team, or whether it was selling an idea or change management, all of that you take with you to the next position or the next role.
And I feel like if there was any one of those that I didn't have, I wouldn't be where I am today. So they're all lessons.
Audra Dinell: Mm.
Jenna Bottolfsen: They really are.
Audra Dinell: Okay.
Detours And Alignment
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Audra Dinell: So today you work with people in career and development seasons where their path isn't always linear. When you think about second act detours, the unexpected turns, pauses, pivots, maybe even restarts, what do you see those moments asking of people?
Jenna Bottolfsen: Truthfully, I see when people are unhappy and they come to [00:13:00] me because they wanna change roles, it's because they are out of alignment, either with their values, their values don't align with the company anymore or maybe the boss or the manager they report to, or their purpose. So w- with my clients, I talk a lot about your passion and your purpose because sometimes people just say, "I'm in the wrong job.
I love accounting. I don't love the job I'm in." Again, it's, it's a value alignment usually, right? Yeah. It's the company or the boss or the organization or whatever. And so then, you know, we tell their story through the resume and, and find another role. Or they've been a data analyst for a long time and it's just not where they wanted to be anymore because their purpose wasn't analyzing this data, it was really telling the story from the data.
So they've pivoted and gotten away from kind of their purpose. So it always starts with a conversation about what their passion was going into their role or going into [00:14:00] college, like, "What made you love this? What made you pursue this kind of a role in the first place?"
Audra Dinell: Mm.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And it's usually because they have gotten too far away from that.
So we say, "All right. What is it that you have loved or, you know, does excite you about the jobs that you've had, and let's get back on that path."
Audra Dinell: Mm. So what those second act detours, I'm calling it, are asking of people is to sort of tap back into who they were or who they are, kind of find that inner understanding of, you know, why did you- take this job in the first place, or what, what interested you or what brought you to this field?
Jenna Bottolfsen: Exactly. Yeah.
Audra Dinell: So for someone who's maybe not in a career transition, how do you think that also applies?
Jenna Bottolfsen: I think well, even, like, when people are laid off, right? It's still that wake-up call that maybe you weren't doing what you loved anymore, or y- [00:15:00] you get a, a rebirth, a re- a chance to s- restart.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And so even when someone has been working for a long time and they didn't even expect it, and they are, find their self in a change, th- that's kinda what we go back to, is w- how'd you start this in the first place? And then they get excited to start over, instead of worried or grieving the loss that they have.
It- it's kind of gives them a different perspective to say, "I'm excited to go forward, 'cause I can get back to fundamentally what I really wanted to do when I started out."
Audra Dinell: Mm. Shifting sort of from viewing a season as mostly a loss to an opportunity. Yeah. Just shifting perspective. Yep. So good.
Questions For Feeling Stuck
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Audra Dinell: So when someone comes to you and they're feeling stuck about what's next, what are usually some of the deeper questions that you ask to understand where they should go?
Jenna Bottolfsen: The first one would be, what got you into this field in the first place? Why did you get on this path? So if it was accounting, right? What made you [00:16:00] go into accounting in college? What made you pursue an accounting degree? What made you go into public accounting in the first place?
And then they're like, "Oh, I just..." You know, w- whatever, we get to those kind of how you're wired or what those natural strengths are, and then talk about what motivates you and sometimes we pull in different assessments. Sometimes I even, you know, give them referrals to people that I know that do different assessments.
And we talk about, you know, how are you fundamentally wired, and what really gets you motivated, and how do we get back to that? Yeah. How do we get back to that?
Audra Dinell: So if someone is feeling stuck, what question would you give them? Maybe not even just in a career, but if it's, like, someone is just feeling stuck in life.
Like, what one question would you have them ask themselves?
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah, that's hard to think about. I think it would start with, you know, what gets you up in the morning?
Audra Dinell: Okay.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Is it your family? 'Cause sometimes that is the [00:17:00] answer. And so it's like, why are we putting so much effort and energy into a job that maybe they're grieving, right?
If success for you is having a happy, healthy family, then, then w- why is the definition of your role affecting your- mood and energy so much, right? That's, so really talking about w- what is their main values and, and what gets them up in the morning. Yeah. And if it's not their role, then why are we worried about losing a job?
Let's find another one that allows you to care for your family or take your families on vacation or provide for your family because that's your fundamental value.
Audra Dinell: Yeah. And it's almost like if you're stuck, it's, I'm thinking it's almost about redefining su- success for yourself, kind of asking yourself, you know, you're, you're at this point, but asking yourself, w- you know, "What does success really look like for me in this season?"
Jenna Bottolfsen: So I had a good [00:18:00] friend, not even a client, and she came to me and she said, I wanna talk to you, you know, from your professional side." And she said, "I was up for this role, and I'm really having a hard time that, you know, the outcome wasn't what I expected." And she said, "I'm really having a hard time.
I talk about it, and I get emotional, and I go to work and I'm still emotional. I think I just need to change organizations or get completely out." And she said, "I don't know why I'm getting so emotional. I'm not an emotional person." And I said, "What is it about that role that you're having a hard time letting go of?
Or, you know, talk to me a little bit about w- why." And she, "I just, I don't know, and that's what I thought the next step was in my career, and I had it in my mind." I said, "So what's most important to you, that title?" And she said, "Oh, no, my kids are, you know, in sports and in dance, and taking them here and taking them there."
I said, "So tell me about that role. Would it have had more [00:19:00] travel, had more time away?" And she said, "Yeah." And then I said, "So how does that align with the values that you have right now, and what really the definition of success is?" And so w- it was a longer conversation than that. But in simplest terms, she was grieving the loss of a job that she didn't get, but that's not what was really important to her in the long run, it's her family.
Mm-hmm. And not getting that job really gave her the time and the s- you know, to be in the season with the kids at this time. And I said, "Oh, pretty soon you'll be in my situation where you'll, they'll be out of the house." Yeah. "It goes before you know, and then that will be the season that you'll really get to grow in your career if that's what's meant to be."
Audra Dinell: Yeah, it was sort of the loss of the vision that she had for herself, but when she sat with reality, she was able to see, "Oh, that vision maybe was outdated, and what I actually see for myself in this season is being more [00:20:00] available or being just as available to my kids as I am now," and that, would have created a tension.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm.
Audra Dinell: I love that.
Letting Go Of Identity
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Audra Dinell: So- You've had your own detours. We talked about that at the very beginning. When you look back to your first leap into entrepreneurship, you said that season taught you that it wasn't as scary- Mm-hmm ... as you thought.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah.
Audra Dinell: Say more about that.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Well, first, I think anybody who's leaving corporate to try something on their own or, thinking about that, the first thing is to let go of that corporate identity.
But we're ... It's so ingrained in us. Like, what do you do? Oh, I'm the director of whatever. I'm the lead of whatever. I'm the head of whatever. And, and so many of us identify with that as our who we are, and just have to get rid of that and say, "N- no, I, I'm starting my own business" and- or, "I'm doing this," or, "I'm, I'm stepping away from that."
So I think letting go of that corporate [00:21:00] identity is kind of the, the biggest thing you have to learn to be okay with.
And then the second i- thing is all the little things that you learn about how y- there's people that will help you. I just remember sitting down with you and saying, you know, "Should I do this thing?"
Or, you know, I ... It was when Chris had talked to me about buying the business and, and you said, you know, "My first time at entrepreneur..." You did share that story with... We were sitting on the patio at Belmont.
Audra Dinell: Yeah, I remember that.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And you said, "My first time at entrepreneurship didn't succeed either, but it just gave me that much more knowledge to go into this second season."
And I was like, "Exactly." So I think having great mentors and great peers that you can talk to and bounce that stuff off of, because I don't know if you know how much I carry with me some of the advice that- Mm ... or some of the conversations that we had.
Audra Dinell: Oh.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Truthfully. Well,
Audra Dinell: thank you for saying that.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah.
Audra Dinell: How do you think people start to work to let go of identities? So when you're working on letting go of [00:22:00] your corporate identity or maybe during that second leap you were letting go of your first season as an entrepreneur like, how do you think people start to let go of those identities?
Jenna Bottolfsen: I think for me, I had
I read several things about other people's opinions of you are none of your business.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And really taking that to heart, because it, it really doesn't matter. Like, why, why does director of HR have to be so much what I identify with as my identity? Why would director of HR have to be my identity?
Audra Dinell: Mm-hmm.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Why can't it be wife, mom, friend, daughter? Those are so much more important words-
Audra Dinell: Or even the- ... than a
Jenna Bottolfsen: title ...
Audra Dinell: even the things you did as director of HR that you still do now- Yeah ... as a business owner, you know, I help people, you know, find the right fit in their careers. Yeah. Just sort of like even the, the ways you go about the world versus the [00:23:00] titles.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah. And what is it about that title that- you wanna cling to-
Audra Dinell: Mm-hmm ...
Jenna Bottolfsen: so much.
Audra Dinell: Mm-hmm.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And most times when I have that conversation with people, it's just, "I thought that's what I was supposed to want."
Audra Dinell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So. I think a lot of people in my world, it does feel like they're waking up to what they thought they were supposed to want, or, you know, growing up, maybe the narrative they were given versus know what you actually, who you actually wanna be in the world-
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah
Audra Dinell: and what that looks like.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Everybody comes about it a different way, because I've, I've probably asked it six different ways, you know, "What is it about that corporate identity?" Or you know, "What has you holding on to that?" And everybody finds their own path to that answer, I think. But it ultimately leads to letting go and, and defining success as getting in touch with yourself and your values and [00:24:00] your purpose in life.
Audra Dinell: Yeah. You know, I also think when you have reached a level of success, let's say it is director level in a company, there's really that fear of like, "Well, what if that's it for me? What if I try this thing and I fail?" You know, I don't wanna let go of something good that I have, even though it might not be lighting me up anymore, or it might not be challenging me or stretching me or growing me.
It might not be allowing me to move through the world in the way that I feel I wanna move through the world in this season, but I'm scared of what's on the other side because it's unknown. Yeah. And I don't know if I can build up this level of, quote, "success" again, or I don't know if I... what's gonna happen to my identity if I leave this.
I just think that fear of the unknown is, is really real.
Tools Worst Case Planning
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Jenna Bottolfsen: One thing, my husband and I sat down and did this, and so I share this story with [00:25:00] clients a lot. When it was the first time I took that leap and we said, "Okay, here's where we are in life. Here's the money that we have. Here's the bills that we have.
How long can I honestly pursue this without making money, and what would be our plan then? Okay, so if in six months I made no money at this, I can just go back and apply for an HR job."
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Jenna Bottolfsen: So I allow... We, we made a plan together and allowed me to really play with it for six months- Mm-hmm ... and say, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna try, and if I fail, that's okay.
I've got six months, and then I can go back." So I do that kind of an exercise with people, too, and it gives them a little bit more courage to say, "All right, realistically, how long can you afford?" Or if you took this other job, and sometimes it is more money, sometimes it's less, or sometimes it's entrepreneurial and you, it's a unknown.
But what's your backup plan [00:26:00] if this failed? What would be the worst thing that could happen? Yeah. Oh, I go into this job, I don't like it, I start over again. Yeah. Or I start this entrepreneurial thing and I don't make money for a while, but I could make it for six months, and then I'll just have to go get a job again.
And sometimes that gives you the foundation for some more courage. And so having kind of that backup plan or what would happen if, what's the worst possible outcome?
Audra Dinell: Yeah. I love those two tools that you shared. The, I call it the you are here tool, and then the worst case scenario tool. I did a whole podcast episode, Brian, we'll have to figure out where that is and link it, but it was called You Are Here, and it was before my husband and I went to Portland, Oregon and did this focus lab to look at the last 15 years of our marriage and where we were, and then sort of, like, vision out for the next 10 years.
And I just remember how powerful it felt to me to be like, "Okay, Audra, you are here." Just like you said, you and your husband sitting down and [00:27:00] saying, "Okay, this is where we are. This is how old we are. This is w- what we have accumulated. These are maybe even the skills that we have. You are here." I just think it's so powerful to look at that.
But then also, I think sometimes the worst case scenario gets a bad reputation, but it is a helpful tool to just keep going of like, okay, you take the leap, and you work for six months, and you don't make enough money. W- what then? Okay, well, then I go get an A- another HR job. Well, what, and what if you don't like it?
Well, then I'll try something else. What then? What then? What then? Yeah. And just, like, winding it down to the worst case scenario, because it's like you're never likely to end up at, like, ultimate death. Right. Right? Right. You know? It's like, it's go- we're, we're going to be able to figure this out. Yes.
Probably not always, but every time I've worst case scenario spiraled in something I'm considering, I just find it super helpful to, like, face that. Yeah. To, like, face it straight [00:28:00] on, look it in the eyes and say, "Okay, worst case scenario, if this doesn't work out, what then?" Because there usually is a what then.
For sure.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And I'm, I'm not usually a worst case scenario or glass half empty kind of a person, but I do think it's a good tool to pull on when you're thinking of making a major life change.
Next Right Step Mindset
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Jenna Bottolfsen: The other thing I see some people getting in the way of, that, that gets in the way of some people, is- If I do this, it has to be forever.
Audra Dinell: Mm. Yes.
Jenna Bottolfsen: It doesn't, right? I'm gonna do this, and does that mean to retirement? Does that mean for five years? Does that mean for three year? I don't know, but it's okay that I don't know.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Jenna Bottolfsen: It's the next right step.
Audra Dinell: Yes. Oh my gosh, that is a motto I live by. Mary Beth Jarvis, who's the president- Yes ... of Nextos said in a panel interview I got to moderate, she said, "Don't place forever pressure on not forever decisions."
And I thought, [00:29:00] gosh, how often do we do that? How often do we say, "Okay, if I start a business, it has to be perfect. It has to be the business, and I've gotta create it so that it's gonna last for 20 years, and I have to know all the steps." "And if I make this leap, like here I am." When instead, a more useful perspective is sort of thinking of it as a chessboard and finding, okay, what's my next move?
What's my next move? What's my next right decision? Yes. There's that great podcast. I think it's called Your Next Right Decision or Your Next Yes, something like that. And I just think that is so much more honestly realistic-
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah
Audra Dinell: in the way life plays out. We can have this vision for 10 years, but it's not all gonna go step by step, okay, we've arrived. It's more likely gonna be like this fuzzy vision that we take a step towards and a step towards, and maybe a pivot away [00:30:00] from, and then a step back. And like it's just a rocky path to get to where ultimately we think we wanna go, and then by then we may have actually changed where we wanna go anyways.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Right.
Audra Dinell: But it's important, I think, to have that vision to guide you-
Jenna Bottolfsen: For sure ...
Audra Dinell: but you don't need all the steps.
Jenna Bottolfsen: When you were 18, what did you think you were gonna be when you grew up? Or were
Audra Dinell: you- I thought I was gonna be an attorney.
Jenna Bottolfsen: See, I was gonna be a elementary school teacher.
Audra Dinell: Aw. You would've been a great teacher.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Maybe not elementary level, but I would've loved to be a teacher. And in fact, I was looking at Emporia State, and I was gonna go be a teacher. And then I, it's so funny because- When, when I work with c- with students that are just graduating from college or whatever, and they're trying to make these big decisions, and they do think it's gotta be, "What am I gonna do for the rest of my life?"
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Jenna Bottolfsen: And I say, "Oh, no. No, no, no, no. Chances are you're not gonna stay there for the rest of your life, so what's next right step?" Yeah. And I, I was at that panel. I remember Mary Beth saying [00:31:00] that, and I had been giving that advice, too, and I felt validated- Yeah ... because I was like, "Oh, wow, yeah.
It doesn't have to be a forever decision. It's just the next right step."
Audra Dinell: It's like put yourself in a place, and be curious, and give it your all, and that will very likely lead to a new place- Yeah ... and a new place, and a new place. But it's like that's the skill. Self-awareness, like you're talking about.
Learn as much as you can about yourself from any way, shape, or form you can. Assessments, tools, situations, and being curious and being open.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Yeah. Yeah.
Audra Dinell: Okay.
Loosen Expectations Closing
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Audra Dinell: So as we wrap up our conversation, looking back at your own detours and the ones you walk clients through, what do you believe now about the path that doesn't go according to plan?
Jenna Bottolfsen: You can't plan. That's the first thing, because I- I've been through layoffs. I have been through pivots, and my plan for me was never what I thought. And the people who have the hardest time moving [00:32:00] forward are because they're stuck to some expectations.
Audra Dinell: Mm.
Jenna Bottolfsen: That's what I... Another kind of motto of mine is, expectations are the killer of joy.
Audra Dinell: Mm.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Because when you have this expectation of what your career looks like and it doesn't go that way, you can't keep moving forward. So loosen your expectations, be a little more curious, and take each pivot for the learning opportunity that it could be.
Audra Dinell: Oh, that's so good. I feel like I needed to hear that.
Soften your expectations.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Thanks.
Audra Dinell: Beautiful. Thank you. Well, thank you for being on today. I'm so- Thanks for
Jenna Bottolfsen: having me.
Audra Dinell: This was so fun ... grateful
Jenna Bottolfsen: to have... Yeah. And
Audra Dinell: easy. I have loved the conversation. Me too. And know that our listeners will, for sure, have some nuggets to pull away.
Jenna Bottolfsen: Thank you.
Audra Dinell: Thanks, Jenna.
[00:33:00]