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A show to explore what being autistic in the workplace looks like today. We focus on understanding late diagnosed autism and its relationship to leadership, technology and identity in the workplace today. With as many as 1 in every 3 adults potentially being non-neurotypical, we must do away with the stigma and learn how to work with each other without disregulation and emotional suffering.
David Guenter is a self professed geek. You'll find him at planetautism.net and as a neurodivergence advocate on LinkedIn. I urge you to go find his work. He is not only warm, funny, but also someone who has navigated a late diagnosis and has come to terms with having found his exact niche doing something he loves in a way that agrees with his autism. Let's listen together to our conversation where he touches on his experience and gives valuable advice for those of us who have yet to get there.
Duena Blomstrom:Hello, everyone, and welcome back to NeuroSpicy at Work I have David Gunter with us today, and I am excited about having a conversation on what it is to be autistic in a certain specific field. So welcome to the show, David, and and thank you for accepting to speak to us. Should I say, should it be David or Dave? What what do you prefer to go?
Duena Blomstrom:David. David is I usually only use David when I'm very upset with the mister. If if he's done something terribly wrong, it's David. Otherwise, it's Dave. But thank you for coming to the show, like I said.
Duena Blomstrom:And, there was a little bit of an intro before, but I'd like us to kind of go into it together and tell, our listeners what it is that you do not who you do it for, but what field you're in. And, also, if you like, to kind of walk us through what brought you to to being diagnosed or self diagnosed, however you wanna you wanna segment yourself in in terms of disclosure.
David Gunter:Let let me start with the second question first. Of course, I've been autistic my entire life. I did not know that until after I was 50 years old. I knew that I was different. I knew that I had trouble doing the things that seemed easy to everybody else.
David Gunter:Walking into a room full of strangers and striking up a conversation was incredibly difficult. Even even making eye contact was difficult. Just lots of things. Everyone around me seemed to know all of these unwritten rules that I didn't know, and so I was I was always bumping against, bumping up against that and, you know, being ridiculed for not knowing these things. So I I grew up feeling very different.
David Gunter:I didn't have a name to put on it. I thought it was depression, and and there may be a a a component of depression, in in my mix somewhere. But I think a lot of what I was calling depression was actually autistic burnout. Like many autistic people, I I like to to stim, to manipulate objects, or my my personal stim, I tend to tap out complicated codes on the table with my finger, complicated mathematical sequences with my fingers. I tend to get stuck on a word.
David Gunter:Sometimes I'll say words that I don't really mean to say. So I took that to mean I had Tourette syndrome, you know, involuntary movements, involuntary speech, must must be Tourette's. No. It was not Tourette's. I thought I had a social phobia for a while, but I had, anxiety for a while.
David Gunter:I chased a lot of diagnoses and and and none of them really panned out. I did consider, autism in the late nineties, but my idea of what an autistic person was is the old Hollywood stereotype, the the the terrible, damaging, ridiculous stereotype that most people believe in, and I wasn't that. So so there's no way I could be autistic. That's that's we'll just cross that right off the list. So after I turned 50, I was seeing another therapist for what I thought was depression.
David Gunter:And just by luck, by coincidence, he had done some work with autistic children during his training, and, eventually, he sort of brought it up to me. You know, one other thing that might explain some of this is, and I didn't wanna hear it because, again, I had the Hollywood stereotype of what autism is, and I'm not that. I'm I'm I'm not some kinda whatever freak or whatever. That can't be me. But the more I learned, and and and more I read, okay, a, my definition of autism is completely wrong.
David Gunter:And B, yeah. A lot of my characteristics do line up pretty well with with this definition of autism. So and that was a process that was at least a year and a half of going from, no, there's no way that's me to, yeah, that's me, and then I was content to stop there, I I I I was confident that I knew who I was, but I got into a situation at work where I needed the official piece of paper with the doctor's signature on it that says autism, So I did pursue a formal diagnosis for that reason, but that didn't change, you know. I I had already figured out who I was, so that didn't change. To to your first point, I am what's called, in the US, it's called a medical writer.
David Gunter:I work for a drug company. They run a study to see, hey. We have this new drug. Is it safe? Does it work?
David Gunter:That study generates literally thousands and thousands of pages of tables and graphs and charts, and it's my job to sit down with those thousands of pages of charts, and and lists, and whatever, and turn that into a coherent report that we can submit to the government to say, this is what happened, You know, this this is this is, you know, any safety incidents that occurred, here they are. This is how well it worked, and this is what we think the next law's supposed to happen. So that that's what, my my the kind of medical writing that I do entails. And it's great fit for me. You know, peep people love to talk about the the medical model of autism, the pathology model, the deficiency model, you know, here's here's the long list of things with here's the long list of things that people with autism can't do.
David Gunter:Here's the long list of things they have trouble doing. But there is another list. People who are autistic tend to have, not always, but can have very good memory. They could have very encyclopedic knowledge on a specific topic that interests them. They tend to have better analytical skills, problem solving skills.
David Gunter:They tend to make decisions faster. They tend to make objection, they tend to make decisions more objectively. Right. And that's my job. I I dive into all this data, and I sift through it objectively, and I say, what is what is the truth here?
David Gunter:What is the story here? So it's it's a natural fit for me. I get that. And it works really well. Before this go ahead.
David Gunter:Before this, I was, in the US, they have the there's the United States Patent and Trademark Office. If someone has a brilliant idea, they write out an application for a patent, they send it in to the patent office, and then a patent examiner takes that application, reads it, understands every last detail of what this person has come up with, and then they go to the library, and they search everything that's ever been written to see, has this ever been done before, and will this work? And I love that part of the job. Just walk me in the library, and give me a give me a bagged lunch, and come check on me tomorrow. I'll be fine.
David Gunter:I I love digging into literature and learning stuff. You know, unfortunately, at some point you have to come out of the library and you have to go argue with lawyers and you have to do all the administrative things. But, you know, those kinds of jobs have always appealed to me. They appeal to my need to learn new stuff. They appeal to my my need to dive deep into into something.
David Gunter:So that's a very long answer to a very simple question. I have a medical writer, and it works for me, and the autism is
Duena Blomstrom:is a big part of my question. Formulated it and how you've, thankfully brought us on the story because one of the things that I was very excited to to show to people today in our conversation, is that there are places where the hyper focus and the the the need to dive deeply into something that that interests you will come together. And when you find that sweet spot, that old adagio of you won't find the work work, is almost through. Obviously, no job is always fun. I'm sure you have loads of parts of it, which you absolutely abhor.
Duena Blomstrom:I if I had to wait here without you for asking, I'd suspect that there are moments when the your RSD might kick in once you have to interact with others. And, obviously, all of those social, mire of of of and clarity that we all have to deal with when we're autistic is certainly still there. No one no one gave you a shortcut from that.
David Gunter:All of the all of the above are true. Yes. Part of my job is is the deep dive and the learning, and part of my job is talking to lots of people and explaining and, arguing sometimes over no that we we we can't say that. This is what we can say. So, yes, there there's a lot of the social aspect, that that is draining, but, yeah, I know overall, the the excuse me.
David Gunter:The statistics are are terrible in the US. Right. Something like 85% of autistic adults are unemployed, and I know that's true. And, I've I've had situations at work, that made it very clear to me that autistic people not not the job I have now, but I've had, had, situations to other jobs where I it was made clear to me that autistic people are not welcome, and
Duena Blomstrom:I Unfortunately, that's
David Gunter:So all that is true, but there are also jobs out there that are built for us. We are decision making machines. We are analytical machines. And if we can find that spot, we can thrive. We can do the best things
Duena Blomstrom:about even I knew you would put it that way. It's one of the reasons Hariri was keen on this conversation because I get a lot of stick online whenever I say that, you know, kind of being neurodiverse can be a superpower as well. I immediately get shut down by hundreds of people telling me that's how very dare you. It's a disability and it's hard for everyone. And look, I, I'm very aware it's hard.
Duena Blomstrom:I'm not putting that down ever. But I also think that the more we find these magical fits where where our makeup makes us the the the perfect candidate, the more likely it is that we'll thrive. And like you very well put it yourself, there are a number of of occupations and positions and and professions where our attributes and they're not the same attributes for everyone, obviously, but that your specific set of attributes will match something that will be exciting to you. And I think finding that is what matters. I I often have this conversation with, my little one who is kind of just trying to figure out what he wants to do.
Duena Blomstrom:He actually does want to be a a biochemical engineer that is focused on research. So I think he's probably found that. He's found that he's very interested in it. But we've had over the years all types of things that we've we've come up with, and he would always shut them down as I am not built like that. I could not ever do x, y, and zed because I don't enjoy it and so on, which I think is part of the fact that, you know, the younger generation comes into the workforce with a much clearer view of of who they really are than we ever had, you know, not having known who we are until until about 5 minutes ago.
David Gunter:And that knowledge of that level of self awareness and that confidence to look at a job and say, nah. That's that's not gonna work for me at all. I I wish I had had that 30, whatever, years ago when I was looking for jobs. You know? That that is an actuary I really admire.
David Gunter:And you're right. Just, autism is a disability. Legally and practically, it is a disability, and life is hard. There's there's stuff that's extremely difficult for me. I had to go to a conference for work and be in a giant hotel room with 250 people, many of whom I didn't know, and that was just incredibly uncomfortable for me.
David Gunter:So, yes, it is hard. It is a disability. People don't like the term superpower, but let's be honest, there are skills, there are traits that are useful. There are aspects of autism that are positive, and I think it's a disservice to only beat on the negative.
Duena Blomstrom:Funny that you should mention in conferences. I've always, I've always thought that I am somehow super defective for having to kind of have a ridiculous amount of downtime once I've interacted with loads and loads of people. And I had to because I was I became a public speaker very early. I hated it all through, but such was life and that's where my career was taking me. But equally, I knew very early that to to counteract that very intense moment of interaction, I I will have to take a couple of days afterwards where I am in a dark room in a corner and I can kind of gather my strength again.
Duena Blomstrom:But and I think Mhmm. Just knowing that about yourself is the mitigating factor and it will keep people a lot more able to access jobs that otherwise would be difficult for them, just kind of understanding your own rhythm. And then, obviously and I think this is probably, a topic we're gonna hopefully touch on The the difference between what we went through and what the new generation is coming through is the topic of adaptation and the fact that once you know who you are, the workplace you're in can offer some type of help in in accommodating what you need. How I know that you're a a really big advocate of of of offering the type of adaptation that whatever it is that people do need. And I was wondering once you've, you've you've discovered who you are and landed on that, what what was that next stage to advocacy?
Duena Blomstrom:What was the step to realizing that you should help others as well?
David Gunter:I I did not disclose the 1st 3 years, with my with my my current employer, because I had disclosed other places in the past that it had gone badly. So I was keeping it to myself. I went through a very difficult situation. My father, got sick and eventually passed away. And the stress of dealing with all of that, plus the word stress, was too much.
David Gunter:And it would be too much for anybody. There's there's nothing magic about autism in that case, but, the stress was too much. I burned out completely at work. Autistic people, as you know, we tend to, mask or camouflage. We we we know what's expected of us in a interaction with a neurotypical person, so we we give them that.
David Gunter:We make the eye contact. We do all of the social niceties we know we're supposed
Duena Blomstrom:to. But it's exhausting. Traumatizing.
David Gunter:And and as my father was was and traumatizing and all the others. That's that's incredibly dangerous and harmful. Yes. And and there's we could do a whole hour on that. But, as I was dealing with the stress of my father passing away, I was able to mask less and less.
David Gunter:I got in trouble for, being too harsh, being too aggressive at work, and, you know, and and so I had to, in self defense, come out and say, look. This this is what's going on. After that, I didn't know what to do. I took some time away from work to to deal with, my father and to deal with the things I was going through. I had an account on LinkedIn already, so I thought, well, I'll I'll go on LinkedIn, and I'll I'll I'll say something about autism there, because a lot of the folks I work with, are also on LinkedIn and and are connected to me on LinkedIn.
David Gunter:So I'll I'll talk about autism a little bit on LinkedIn, and I'll sort of introduce the conversation when I get back to work, and we can talk about it or not. And that's as far as I had planned. You know? I'll just start this conversation with the people I work with. But it grew.
David Gunter:And, one of my inspirations, is is a lady I had a I worked with at a meeting. She was talking about something, and she said, you know, talking, talking, talking, and I'm autistic, so talking, talking, talking, and just didn't slow down, didn't look back. Just said, I am autistic, and kept going. And that was like a magic trick. I didn't know you could do that.
David Gunter:You you can just say you're autistic. You can say it out loud, and and and and and and move on. So she really gave me the inspiration to say, okay. Time to quit playing around. It's just time to say it out loud, and let everybody know it.
David Gunter:So, I've been building, my presence on LinkedIn, trying to be more and more active and more and more vocal there. I have created my own site, planetautism.net, partly because, you know, practical reasons. There's a limit to how long a post can be on LinkedIn, and there's a limit to graphics. There's limits to lots of things. Partly because it like most autistic people, I have a need for autonomy.
David Gunter:I need I need to be in charge. I need I need to be the one who decides things, and if I have my own site, then I'm the one who decides things. So, I'm I've built built out still a work in progress. I got a book I'm working on outlining. I'm trying to reach out further and further, and and just get the message out that, look, you work with people who are autistic whether you know it or not.
David Gunter:Particularly, if you're in a high-tech field, if you work in computers, I can promise you, you you work with people who are autistic. That but scientific fields, technical fields, you work with someone who is autistic. So here's how you here's how you talk to that person. Here's here's how, you let that person thrive. Here's here's
Duena Blomstrom:how you think most
David Gunter:of them.
Duena Blomstrom:For all the work you've put into it because every piece of advocacy builds towards, you know, kind of getting in a better spot for everyone. And I I I thank you for the, for the story you had in terms of inspiration for disclosure. Those are kind of, to my mind, the 2 defining moments for us late diagnosed autistic people that one, when it occurred to us that that's, that's kind of who we are and when that penny drops and and it all starts fitting and matching and those puzzle pieces come come come to make up the we were all along. And then the second time, whether or not we wanted to disclose until that point, what happened that made people be a lot more vocal about their, in in the online arena, if you wish, kind of on social media and so on. Thank you for that.
Duena Blomstrom:It's really important that that we say that because I think we underestimate how important it is to to speak about being autistic out loud. I have seen a trend of late. I don't know if you've noticed it as well, where people, will be kind of under this crowd of of anonymity online and say, you know, I'm an autistic exec or I'm I'm a neurodiverse professional without actually putting their name to it, which, you know, I'm not judging. I understand the reasons behind it all too well.
David Gunter:No.
Duena Blomstrom:But equally
David Gunter:I get that.
Duena Blomstrom:I also know it's a missed opportunity for for anyone young and anyone who hasn't had the courage to to see an inspirational moment of right people like me. And and if anything, I don't know if you agree or not, the ability for all of us to find a tribe and to to to feel like these humans are like me is probably the biggest win that social media could have given us over the last 10 years or so. Absolutely.
David Gunter:Absolutely. Yeah. I I think that's one of the key differences between, you know, my generation, the next generation, is they've grown up online and connected, and having a friend, you know, halfway around the world is is is no big deal for them. Once I got really into the social media and and started looking around, there are a lot of very active autistic communities online. And just to have someone say, yeah, I get that.
David Gunter:No. You're not crazy. That's doesn't make any sense. I don't know why people always say do this when they mean do that. You know, just just having someone to tell you it's okay.
David Gunter:That you're you're not broken or defective or wrong. Your brain just works a little bit differently. And the way you see the world is 100% logical to you, and it's all good.
Duena Blomstrom:The validity we get out of that, I think, cannot be underestimated. I had, a bit of a debate, earlier in the week with someone in my team who was saying, well, we can't always rely on the dopamine hit we get when we realize we are like other people. And, I I beg to differ. I think we should rely on it and that their argument was, well, at the end of the day, we now get the same exact ten traits that we all relate to and how many more times do we need to say that. And that's what's annoying the neurotypicalist.
Duena Blomstrom:And my reaction was that I'm fine with them being annoyed for as long as they like. We spent 20, 30, 40, 50 years not understanding what's happening to us and and have willing to go through situations for traumatic. And I don't think it's that traumatic for, you know, typical people to have to see the same 10 traits that would make your day better. So go ahead and get your dopamine from there. It's not gonna break the bank.
Duena Blomstrom:There you go. So
David Gunter:I mean, if they ever actually learned at all and it starts being an issue, we'll stop talking about it. Yeah. We'll make it
Duena Blomstrom:Very good point. Very good point.
David Gunter:Yeah. I I How many people do
Duena Blomstrom:you think and this is, I know it's a question of, of exaggeration, and no one really wants to put numbers on anything. But if you were to put your money on red or black, would you say that there are, the numbers that we have around the incidence of autism are anywhere close to reality, or are we looking more at, I don't know, a larger percentage of people or a majority of people? I've heard it all over the last few episodes.
David Gunter:Right. I think the the official estimates are still too low. I I think a lot of people are still looking to very restricted definition of what autism is. And I think one of the most exciting things that's happening now is we're learning, hey, autism is also, and autism can also. And so I think if we ever got a real working definition of what autism is, we would find that a lot more people fit that definition.
David Gunter:You know, if if you're gonna go back to the the 40 or the 60 year old definitions, you know, then then, yeah. I mean, a lot of people don't fit that, but that was never the right definition in the first place. So and yes, we're we're seeing a lot more autistic people than we used to. That's because they used to be invisible. That's because they used to hide, and and there was no way to to to find them.
David Gunter:So I think the officials official stats are still too low. I don't know what the real number is. The, you know, people talk about 2% of the worldwide population. I no. I think we're significantly higher than that.
David Gunter:And and I'm hoping, you know, hoping someday we figure it out. I'm not sure that we will barring massive breakthroughs in technology that let us know more about the brain works. But
Duena Blomstrom:Maybe it won't matter. Maybe we'll get to a place where it won't matter.
David Gunter:At at some point, that's the ideal. It doesn't matter. I don't know your blood type, and I don't care. I don't need to know your blood type. We we could have a conversation regardless, you know?
David Gunter:And that is a biological factor that is inherent to you, and very important in certain situations, you know, if you need a transfusion. But I don't need to know that about you. It's all fine. So I would hope someday we can get to the point where Mhmm. You're autistic.
David Gunter:Okay. Like, oh, you're left handed. Okay. You know, I just I just hope it becomes just another thing.
Duena Blomstrom:It's right. It's gonna be an interesting, an interesting road to travel. And and I think to a degree, we would sort of, contradict ourselves. On the one hand, I keep saying that we need more people to disclose. We need more people to inspire others by saying I have been autistic all my life.
Duena Blomstrom:Whether or not it fits your definition or not, it doesn't matter. This is who I am. And equally, we say, well, maybe it won't matter whatsoever. And and we can just be mindful of the fact that the world is a diverse canvas, and we can all be, finding the adaptation we need just for needing it and not because of, our neurological makeup. But I don't think they are at all in opposition with each other.
Duena Blomstrom:I think we need both things happening until we get to a place where where the world is capable. But if you look around yourself in in the in kind of around your colleagues and in in your in your job today, obviously, loads and loads of other people would be would be autistic. Do they disclose? Do you feel like there's a lot more disclosure than there used to be?
David Gunter:There is more than there used to be. Yes. I would I, you know, because I stand up and say I am autistic, a lot of people reach out to me privately and say, you know, I'm autistic too. So I know that there are many autistic people that I work with who will never say it, who are not yet to the point where they're gonna say that out loud, or they're gonna admit that to anybody. So I think disclosure is becoming somewhat more common, but it's still just
Duena Blomstrom:a different iceberg. For the reasons that people would assume are the common reasons, which is that there there is a fear of reputations.
David Gunter:Yes. I would like to dress it up, but, yes. You know, I I have had situations where, at previous jobs where I went in and told the head of HR, hey. I'm autistic, and she looked at me like I was insane or serial killer or contagious. I'm not sure what that look was exactly, but she could not get me out of her office fast enough.
David Gunter:And she was the head of HR. Of all of all the people at the company, she all had some understanding, but I've altered sit smaller situations at work, once people know you're autistic. Oh, well, David wouldn't wanna lead that project, or David wouldn't wanna be involved in that. Yeah. David would like to lead that project.
David Gunter:Why don't you ask David what he wants instead of just assuming, like, yeah. So there is a lot of fear of repercussion. There's a lot of social fear of being the other. You know, he's he's not one of us. He's one of them.
David Gunter:And so it's it's
Duena Blomstrom:And I think, obviously, that's super sad and in particular and this does apply only to really the segment of us that have, been diagnosed late or have started disclosing late. In my case, it's both. I've only found out when when I was an adult, I guess, I was 20 something. But having known all along, I I have spent 20 years in the industry not talking about it because I was convinced I would never kind of exceed to the positions I wanted to exceed you, and I would never kind of climb the ladder. I would never be able to lead teams and so on and so forth.
Duena Blomstrom:And and all of that could have possibly been the case if I had said something earlier than when I was forced to. So I completely understand why, in particular, once you've gotten to a certain place and in particular in in this is where the competition is acerbic, you would be 1 would be very, very reluctant if if not find it impossible to talk about it. And there's also the fact that you you you very well touched on earlier that there's a lot of self denial. We're not exactly very willing to to admit it to ourselves, to our families and and so on. And and then that begs the question, are we, you and I as autistic people who have worn a mask, have disclosed, have gone through that process, Are we saying it's, necessarily better on the other side?
Duena Blomstrom:Should people disclose and should people wear a mask, or does that not necessarily make enough of a life quality jump to be worth the pain?
David Gunter:I think people talk about unmasking as if it's all or nothing, and and I I don't think that's true. I I I am vocal. I am on LinkedIn for whoever wants to hear it. I'm doing podcasts. I'm writing a book.
David Gunter:I I I do not hide the fact that I am autistic, but there are aspects of my life that I don't talk about. There are situations where I behave in the way I'm expected to behave. The the mask is still there. I've I've cut away a lot of it. It it's a lot more transparent than it used to be, but it's still there.
David Gunter:If I'm in a crowd full of people I don't know and will never see again, I'll I'll pretend to be just like everybody else just to get through it, you know. But so, a, unmasking is not, you know, absolute. It's a process. And b, there are ways to let the mess slip just a tiny bit, you know. You can go to your boss and say, you know, I work best when I have a chance to really focus on what I'm doing.
David Gunter:Would would it be okay if for an hour and a half in the morning and an hour and a half in the afternoon, I I close my email and I close my instant messenger, and I really focus on on my work. And and I'll answer only email email before the day is over, but I I just need that time to really work and be productive. You can ask for that without saying, hey. I'm I have ADHD, and I'm really easily distracted. And every time my email dings or or the instant messenger link flashes, I get distracted.
David Gunter:I lose everything. I just start over from scratch. You know, you can you can ask for things and explain what you need without using the word accommodation or autism or ADHD or whatever. So there there are small steps that you can take, toward unmasking. Your question basically is is it worth it?
David Gunter:Yeah. Overall, yeah. But you need to be careful. You you it as autistic people, we it's hard for us to know who to trust. We tend to tend to communicate literally and and assume that people mean what they say, which is not true, always.
David Gunter:So it is a process. You will get hurt now and again when you unmask to the wrong person. But when you start building up those people around you, where you can let the mask down some and and be who you are, that's such a gift. It's so it's so wonderful. It it it it feeds you, and, you know, that that con that conversation can actually feed you instead of drain you, if the person you're talking to understands that I'm just I'm not gonna make eye contact.
David Gunter:That doesn't mean I'm bored or ignoring you or whatever. It just means I can either listen to you or I can look like I'm listening to you, but I can't do both. So, you know, once you build up your core group of people who know enough of who you are to let you be more of who you are, that I
Duena Blomstrom:love that. I I love how you
David Gunter:I love how
Duena Blomstrom:you you phrased that. So it's not an all or nothing thing. I think that's an important message for everyone to to understand. You can and you should probably if you if you get to choose and you're not forced to, unmask and disclose like some of us have been, then you have the luxury of of of better fanning out in your in in in the ability of having the support of those that you've you can count on. And then it does indeed pay off.
Duena Blomstrom:And then it does indeed make sense. And then it is indeed worth it, kind of without a doubt. I have yet to meet despite having met many people who have had struggles with this, I have yet to meet anyone who says, definitely don't do it. Mistake and I wish I could go send it back to the closet. And I think that comes with almost anything and any type of disclosure you have to do.
Duena Blomstrom:It's, it's not necessarily specific to autism. It's it's, you know, queer people have gone through the same process of having to figure out whether or not they speak about who they are. And it's it always pays off eventually, but it is pay for meanwhile, and it can be traumatic and and problematic meanwhile. But but I like that. Having a way to to better comprehend who you are and then take that to your employer in ways that simply fit the the gaps of where your your adaptation doesn't need to be made in a piece of paper.
Duena Blomstrom:Hereby, you have been adapted correctly, but but it's simply feeding your your your workflow better is probably a good place to start. I like that. I like that.
David Gunter:And if you go to your your manager and they they support that idea, okay. Sure. You could have an hour and a half of quiet time morning and afternoon, then maybe you go back to the next thing. You know, it would also help if you know, once once you've done that one thing and and proven, wow, I'm so much more productive now, and there's been no negative consequences, now you go to your boss with the second thing. You know, it would also help if I could have a different have some different lighting in the office that did you know?
David Gunter:The light you can say, oh, the light hurts my eyes. You don't have to say, because I'm autistic and I'm sensitive to certain lights. But, you know, and then, okay, see see how that goes. Will he let you do something different with the lighting? And when that pays off, at least, you know, with little or no cost, you're you're even more productive.
David Gunter:Go back to them again. You know? So you can sort of take it incrementally, and when someone proves to you that they're an ally, and proves to you that they care, then you can start thinking about taking the mask off completely. You know, peep people ask me all the time, you you know, I just thought I'm autistic, should I disclose that? And and my response is, how does this how does disclosing it benefit you?
David Gunter:Now, never mind your boss, never mind anybody else, Will disclosing this make your life better? And if you don't see how it's going to make your life better, then why don't you wait a little bit? Because once you've done it, you're not gonna undo it. So, so let's let's think about it carefully before
Duena Blomstrom:we dive in. Yeah. I can I can see why being, having a cautious approach is is super important in some instances? One thing that I do say, I think works across the board and I'm it's a it's a big, it's a big superstition, but I like to believe it's the case is once you you know what kind of needs you have and then let's not forget that's a really big step. It can take you months, years until you've landed on what it is that makes you most productive or most high performing and so on.
Duena Blomstrom:But once you know that, what I think really works is attempting exchange of read me exercise within your team. Because once you you get it down and you know that these are the ways in which I work best, If you were to encourage that everyone else gets through that same exercise, whether autistic or not, they simply hand each other a piece of electronic data that says these are the things that would make me most productive. It doesn't again need to be categorized as an adaptation for autism, but simply in an ideal world, the way I would work through my day is this. And I think once that exchange happens, you can tell whether or not you have a label, the the need for being more productive is not in your best interest because you're trying to be a such and such, but in the best interest of of the entire team. So that can work.
David Gunter:Right. And and that's the point I I wish more managers understood. The the things that I need I I don't have special needs. The things that I need, everybody else needs too. I need them a little more intensely, but but but everybody needs them.
David Gunter:You know, my my boss comes to me and says, can you do whatever? Can you do this? Okay. To me, that's a question. That do you have the physical ability, the time, the resources to do this?
David Gunter:Are you able to do this? But to my boss, that's a command. Can you do this means do this, and I'm gonna start asking questions. What what exactly do you need? When do you need it?
David Gunter:How do you need it? Why do you need it? And the boss is gonna get frustrated and say, can you do this or not? And I'm gonna get frustrated. I don't know.
David Gunter:I don't know what what this is yet. Clear communication of expectations would help me, tell you if I can do that or not, and clear communication of expectations would help everybody. You know? We've all had a project at some point where we knew we were supposed to be doing something, and it was really important to somebody, that we do something, but we don't know what it is, you know, and all the time and all the frustration and all the money, in that situation, we could've could've avoided all of that if you just give me some clear written instructions at the outset, you know. So absolutely.
David Gunter:Sit down with your entire department and say, hey. What what would help us? What would help us communicate with each other better? And never bring up the word autism or neurodiversity or disability or whatever. Mhmm.
David Gunter:And just have that conversation. And then, most importantly, follow through. If if your team tells you, we want better written better more explicit written communication, then do that, and keep doing that, and keep doing that, because that's how you build trust. That's how someone's gonna come to you later with something else if they see, okay. Okay.
David Gunter:She gets it. She she I I told her this is what I need and then she gave it to me and yeah. Okay.
Duena Blomstrom:Exceptional points there. I'll unpack them a little bit. First off, the need for clear communication, ideally written and ideally delivered in a way that doesn't necessarily make us completely put our backs up and be RSD ed on either side of the communication scheme is key in in every work situation really. And then the fact that we don't have special needs, we just have needs and that's not special to autistic people. Every worker you have in your team, whether or not they are autistic or not, will have those needs.
Duena Blomstrom:But, realistically, we live in a world where your specific needs so that you give the best you have at work are not exactly at the forefront of anyone's mind. You well pointed out earlier that, unfortunately, HR is more of a of a disconnected function these days. And and, yeah, it's it's a it's a tough world from from from the point of view of different types of needs, that the employees do and do not have whether or not we are autistic. I think it's, it's important that we don't skirt over the fact that it's not an easy job market either. And everyone knows that.
Duena Blomstrom:Oh. We're in the middle of 100 of thousands of people in particularly in our industries, in in science and in technology having been let go. So that puts a lot more pressure on on people to not be immediately disclosing or or asking for adaptation that they need, and we completely understand that. We're not, we're not denying that's the case.
David Gunter:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Duena Blomstrom:I was gonna ask you a couple of things in terms of your, specific ideas on how to to make your own, habitat and your own workflow better. Like, how do you deal if you have any kind of tips at all, how do you deal with those moments where you feel like you're very valuable and honest questions that you were mentioning before, for instance, or your your need for for clarity, is interpreted as as being recalcitrant or or not being willing to do the thing? How do you do you get yourself over the instead of getting a medal for my contribution, I am being, seen as obstructive.
David Gunter:Yeah. That that, is still something that I'm working on. Like many autistic people, I I don't always I'm not fully aware of my facial expression or my tone of voice. I'm told that when I'm concentrating or frustrated or tired, my my facial expressions and tone of voice tend to shift more toward angry, even if I'm not. And so, as I'm trying to explain something and not being heard, apparently, I begin to sound more and more angry, whether whether I mean to or not, and that makes people defensive.
David Gunter:But, of course, I can't read the fact that they're starting to feel defensive, because I'm not good at reading other people's tone of voice or facial expressions either, and so things tend to escalate. So in my head, I I try to step back. I try to, okay. Let's let's take a breath. Here's, you know, let's I'm not angry.
David Gunter:I'm just trying to understand and just, lay out lay it out, you know, try to diffuse the emotions of the situation, which is easier for me because I'm autistic, and I wasn't that emotional about it in the first place. But, being aware that, okay, this person is probably feeling like I'm questioning their authority. This person is probably feeling threatened because because I'm a big guy and now I look angry. And this person, you know, might be feeling this, might be feeling that. And so, okay, what do we do with that?
David Gunter:So people talk about, you know, emotional intelligence and empathy, and and, autistic people certainly have those traits. We're not always great at expressing those traits. We're we're not always great at letting people know that we have empathy or that we understand them. So I I I try to make myself step back and consciously
Duena Blomstrom:You just sounded more emotionally intelligent than most people I've I've heard of. So I would disagree tremendously. I think, yeah, I see what you mean. But absolutely, that sounds like a lot of a lot of empathy and thought that goes into attempting to adapt yourself to how they would read the situation. And is that not something is that something that you feel was has been part of it being taxing?
Duena Blomstrom:I don't know if you feel the same way that we have had to at all times understand by numbers how our approach might come across to others and just adapt to it. That's a little bit part of our burnout, isn't it? Yeah.
David Gunter:Yeah. It is. I mean, for every conversation, the neurotypical person is doing the neurotypical half of the conversation, and we're doing their half plus our autistic half translating from them to us. It's having a a conversation in the language that you just kinda barely speak sometimes, and yeah. Or that you studied a long time ago and used to know but don't anymore, is a lot of thought, a lot of how do I say this?
David Gunter:How okay. He's saying that. What does that really mean? Yeah. So, yes, we we are working a whole lot harder in those conversations Right.
David Gunter:Than neurotypical people. And, yes,
Duena Blomstrom:in part It's it's just part of something we're going to have to be honest about. And, hopefully, there's gonna be less and less of this as as the world moves on and as humans come into the workplace with a clear sense of who they are and what they need and what their boundaries are and what they expect out of others, hopefully, those and communication is a lot clearer. Hopefully, these situations will be less and less of them. Yes. So far, to be honest, to those of us that are at around this generational moment, we have had to do a lot of the work to translate ourselves to a neurotypical world in a way that doesn't get that RSD, reaction up either.
Duena Blomstrom:And and I think, yeah, that's we have to be honest that there's a lot of burnout from that point of view and and something that we should be mindful of. And also equally, we were talking earlier about unmasking that does come with a price that's also sometimes really easily translatable into, the moment of extreme burnout. I think being aware of it is possibly going to make people get over it a lot easier than to think that they have a combination between anxiety, depression, trauma, which like you very well pointed out are all part of the the baggage we are now lugging around. Thanks to all these years. But I think it's important to know that you can kind of prepare for it and think, right, that that might be a moment where where my house of cards might fall over.
Duena Blomstrom:But when I put it back together, I'll be, a much more rounded up for me. I think I love how you've how you've, how you've you've presented it. And I think your advocacy is making a really big impact. I'm very thankful to to see the things you put out online. I hope people go to is it planetoptism.orgor.com?dotnet.
David Gunter:Planetoptism.net.net. So dotcom.net.
Duena Blomstrom:Very important. They find you online on LinkedIn and and continue the conversation. Thank you so much for for the episode and for chatting to us today, David, and I hope to have you back sometime soon.
David Gunter:Oh, it's been a pleasure. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for giving me a chance to to get some things off my chest. So have a great day.