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This episode of the Pilot the Pilot Podcast features Jason Miller as he delves into the essentials of becoming an IFR pilot. The discussion emphasizes the importance of preparation, stressing that aspiring instrument pilots should complete their written exams early and be ready for the complexities of IFR flying. Miller shares valuable insights on the significance of understanding the “why” behind instrument flying procedures and the need for pilots to recognize their saturation points during training. The conversation also touches on the differences between flying light aircraft versus larger jets, highlighting how these distinctions impact safety and decision-making. Through anecdotes and practical advice, listeners are encouraged to approach their flight training with a focus on mastering the fundamentals and developing a strong situational awareness.
Takeaways:
Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
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My name is Jason Miller.
I'm a career flight instructor.
I've been teaching flying
since 2002.
AV Nation what is going on?
And welcome back to the Pilot
the Pilot Podcast.
My name is Justin Seams and I
am your host.
Today's episode is a part of
the series I'm doing with Jason Miller
from Learn the Finer Points.
This series highlights how to
Become a Pilot we start how to become
a Student pilot.
We did private pilot and now
we are doing instrument rating Pilot
ifr.
If you haven't listened to the
other episodes or you want to start
at the beginning, by all means
click on those two.
First, if you're an IFR
student, you are in IFR right now
or about to start, then this
is the one for you.
So Jason and I, we just dive
right in.
As you're going to notice, we
just start talking.
We joke about how if there's
ever a microphone around and Jason
and I, we can record and have
podcasts forever.
It's just what we talk about
and what you see is just our natural
conversations.
And some would call us nerds, but.
I guess we just love what we.
Do and love to share this
information, but I hope you enjoy
this podcast.
I think it's a beneficial one
for becoming an IFR student.
So check it out.
Also check out the Ground
School app.
I'll put a code below that you
can use to save some money off that
app.
So check out in the
description that code.
Or you can also head over to
my website, Pilot the Pilot hq, scroll
down to sponsors and partners
and you can click on Jason's logo
and it'll take you right to
that webpage.
So Avnation, I don't want to
take your time much longer.
So any further ado, here's how
to become an IFR pilot with Jason
Miller.
You never know when the
emergency is going to come and there
are stories of people on their
solos losing engines or people on
their first flight losing engines.
It's anytime you start that
engine, engine, there's a chance
that it could go out.
It's a lot of moving pieces in
there, right?
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
And it's like anytime I can
identify what I call the ostrich
approach to like, to risk
management, where it's just like,
people just don't think about it.
Yeah, they just don't think
about it.
You know, like an example
might be, you could tell a pilot,
hey, would you go fly six
miles offshore here at a thousand
feet in a single engine
airplane on a beautiful VFR day?
And they'd be like, heck, no,
I would never do that.
That's crazy.
If you lose your engine, you
go in the water.
Okay.
Then two weeks later when the
fog rolls in, they're flying the
ILS into Monterey and they're
five miles offshore at 1500ft.
Just not thinking about it.
It's just the ostrich approach.
You're just on the ils, See
the water.
Yeah.
That risk no longer exists.
Yeah.
We were invisible.
I was doing aerial survey and
this is one of the few planes that
were IFR certified.
And we're down in Galveston
and one of the we're landing.
I can't remember the Runway
configuration, but we're landing
either north, northeast,
whatever it was where the ILS is
over the water.
And that thought crossed my mind.
I was like, it was like
marginal vfr.
It's like we could kind of get
down, you know, it's like, how comfortable
do I feel going that far out
over the water?
And Houston Tech or Galveston,
Texas, or just anywhere?
It's like, you gotta think
about that sometimes.
Yeah, you do.
And to be fair, you know, my
mentor Richard was the One who first
sort of mentioned it to me.
And I think that's all we're
really trying to do is get to get
pilots to get their heads out
of the sand and just consider these
risks.
If you want to accept them,
that's fine.
But I remember starting
instrument training with Richard.
This is back in 1998, I think
something like that.
And don't date yourself.
I said to him, yeah, sorry.
And I said to him, hey, let's
fly the ils, you know, whatever the
Runway nine approach or
whatever it was in the Monterey.
And he said, I'm not doing that.
And I was like.
And I literally didn't know.
I was like, why wouldn't you
do that?
He's like, do you see that?
He's like, that's four and a
half miles offshore and you're at
1300ft.
He's like, would you do that VFR?
You know, maybe if you're a
Gulf Stream, fly that approach, but
not for me and my 172, you know.
So, I mean, we have to really
consider, like, what risks we're
taking on.
And I think, like, to your
point, it's a bit of a finer art
in the beginning.
You're just overwhelmed.
Yeah.
And then as you get
comfortable, I mean, here I am after
two decades of experience,
really starting to take some of the
things that even we've been
teaching more seriously.
Yeah.
And I was thinking about Monterey.
With my previous job, I went
to Monterey quite a bit, and I don't
think I've ever landed on nine
in Monterey.
I think it's always been the
other runways and there's been some.
The weather's beautiful there
until it's not right, and then it's
pretty bad.
And we've had some storms
where we can't get in and go around,
and the rain just sits there.
The clouds get low.
So Monterey, man, I love the area.
Having overnights in Monterey
is amazing, but it's.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
But there's terrain there, too.
They've had a number of accidents.
People vectored into the
mountain before.
Radar was really good.
Yeah.
Thank goodness for radar.
Yeah.
Right.
And terrain features on your eye.
Yeah.
But.
Yeah, I know.
Right?
And Garmin Pilot.
Thank goodness.
And Garmin Pilot.
Right.
Amazing.
Yeah.
So we were.
We were previously talking
about kind of our series that we're
doing, and I figured we could
just continue on.
We stopped Private Pilot.
I figured we just go straight
into instrument pilot, and that kind
of kicks into releases with
your app as well.
So we'll plug that I'll pro.
I mean, I might just include
everything we just talked about,
because I feel like we just
kind of hit the ground running and
we'll just kind of segue into it.
Yeah.
I mean, always recording, man.
Always recording.
So, yeah, if you're listening
now, this is technically the beginning
of the podcast, but you got an
extra eight minutes of just what
normally happens when Jason
and I talk.
It's just always that, like,
it's just always a podcast.
We could always record it and
it could be something useful, right?
That's right.
And we should.
Maybe we don't always, but we
always should.
24.
7 Streaming podcast with Jason
and Jess.
Sounds like a terrible idea.
Yeah, right.
Truman Show.
Oh, that would not be ideal.
But anyways, let's do a quick
intro about yourself and then we'll
get started.
Sure, sure.
Yeah.
My name is Jason Miller.
I'm a career flight instructor.
I've been teaching flying
since 2002, primarily in the San
Francisco Bay area.
I focus on technically
advanced aircraft and instrument
flying, really.
Although I teach a little bit
of everything except multi and tail
wheel.
I built a company called the
Finer points.
So in 2005, I launched the
very first flight training podcast,
which grew into a YouTube channel.
As early as 2007, you said,
don't date myself, but there you
go, you're doing it.
It's okay.
Yeah, the YouTube channel has
gone great and it's actually grown
into what is my baby is a
product called the Ground School
app.
And the Ground School app is a
repository for just about everything
I know.
It's got a private course, an
instrument course, better takeoffs
and landings course coming soon.
Mastering IFR course coming soon.
All of it for one price.
The only catch is you need an
Apple device.
It's iOS only.
But apart from that, you can
access all of my knowledge through
Ground School.
All.
You can access the brain.
You get the brain.
I'm online@ learnthefinerpoints.com.
Sorry, I'm trying to think of
the movie where they.
Where they uploaded, like,
consciousness into AI and it's like
what you're doing for your
app, it's just Jason's consciousness
right there.
Yeah.
It's funny, we've actually
looked at that.
We've been talking to some AI people.
I don't want to derail this
conversation, but it's hard to see
exactly where that's going.
Right.
Yeah.
I feel like every company is
trying to implement AI in some way,
so be interesting to see how
it pans out in applications in aviation
Whether we're talking about
Garmin pilot or whatever you use,
you know, there could be some
help with AI with planning flights
or doing other stuff, but
legality of stuff, it's like, well,
don't trust the computer.
All, you know, just there's a
mess in there.
Right.
But AI is definitely going to
come and be a bigger part of what
we do.
So something just to keep an
eye on.
Yeah, yeah, for sure it will.
And you know what's funny is
though, like, I really find often
what I end up saying to my
team and I'm really blessed at this
point to have a team of about
12 people helping build ground school.
Um, but I always tell them
that I think nobody's really done
the basics well.
So like it's like whenever
there's a lot of fancy new things,
at least in flight training,
like if someone tells me, oh, they
can create an AI flight
instructor, they can build this tool
that does this thing and shows
you the data and you're 6.7cm off
your center line on every 1.4g landing.
And all this stuff is like, I
think we can just go back to basics.
I don't believe that for the
last 120 years we've really done
a great job of teaching the basics.
And so a lot of the tools that
we've built into the app are not
really fancy per se, but they
are just valuable in teaching the
basics.
You know, a quick example is
we've built this tap target thing
where we show video from the
cockpit from the pilot's view and
we ask people to touch the
screen where they see things and
when they see things and we
can tell them where they should be
looking.
You know, these are very old.
This is what Richard taught me.
This is just old school stuff.
It's not a fancy piece of data
or anything.
It's just a way to evaluate
are we teaching you valuable things,
are you learning them and can
you apply them in the airplane?
There's a lot of that in the app.
Yeah.
And that's something that it's
hard to teach.
Right.
It's something that you gotta
kind of pick up on your own.
And when someone's sitting
next to you just saying, all right,
look there.
And you're like, where,
where's there?
But if you have like an actual
guideline of like, all right, tap
here, that's where you should look.
That's what the site picture
should look like.
Yeah, that.
And when I teach, I of course
always fly with a heads up display.
Yeah, the Expo marker.
So My students all have a
heads up display.
We just write on the window
where you're supposed to look.
Oh, that's cool.
Never.
Yeah, with.
Yeah, but with the technology
in the app, you know, we can, then
we can show them that and then
ask them to prove it, you know.
So what else is going on with
the app?
Recently I know you're, you're
more focused.
You had private pilot.
Now you have instrument rating.
How's everything been going
with that?
It's been going great.
I think maybe I'm not the
world's best businessman.
We're leaving money on the table.
It's all one price.
But there's a reason for that
and I'm excited about where we're
headed with it.
So the exciting part for users
now is they get everything in the
app.
The private course, the
instrument course.
And I think some of the
challenges for us is to help experienced
pilots understand that there's
valuable content deep in there that
they might not know about.
And so we're building this,
like I said, mastering IFR course
and mastering landings course.
And the nice thing about being
one price is we can just add all
this stuff to the app and it's
just a more compelling reason why
somebody should own it and
engage with it.
And what's crazy about it.
I'm really, I'll keep going.
Well, I was just gonna say I'm
really fortunate, like I said a minute
ago, to be surrounded by such
incredible people.
You know, we're all committed
to making what we believe is the
best flight training product ever.
And that's like what we're
focused on.
And it's inspiring.
You know, a lot of the guys
are just brilliant.
One of them is a UPS pilot,
one's a prime pilot.
They're all active flight
instructors, former military guys.
I just feel really lucky to be
working with the guys I'm working
with and girls and building
what we're building.
I love it.
I really do.
And I'm getting ready to start
renting a bonanza at a local flying
club.
And I was just like some of
the concepts of flying a small plane
are so, so far removed from my brain.
With my training, with all my
121 AQP.
I mean obviously they're still
there, right?
Once I get into it, it's going
to take like an hour or two and everything
should come back.
But I was just playing through
the ground school app as well and
just like clicking buttons
like, all right, let me try to remember
tomato fl.
Tomato flames or let me try to
remember like this, like just the
basic stuff, just so I can
kind of have an idea.
Because it's a total different world.
You, you as an airline pilot
can find yourself in a lot of trouble.
We're not necessarily flying
just regulation wise because when
you go to the airplane, you
know, you look for the maintenance
book, you look for, you sign stuff.
And there's a lot of people
doing other jobs where when you're
flying your small plane, it's
pretty much you doing your job.
If you're running from a
flying club, you got to make sure
other people did their job too.
So a lot more to kind of take
into consideration.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's, you know, that's
a, that's a good example of the kind
of thing I'm talking about
because I really believe in ritualization,
you know, of the flying.
And I know in your
professional life there's a lot of
that.
Yeah, right.
Like when you get into the, to
the, when you go up on the flight
deck and you are flying with a
captain you've never met at what,
at the airlines, both of you
are sort of involved in executing
a ritual that you have both
rehearsed independently, but now
you're doing it together.
If you knew your part in a
play and the captain knew their part
in the play, even though you
guys have never performed it together,
you could theoretically jump
on stage and just start executing
the play.
That's how the pros work.
And I'm a big believer in that
at all levels, you know, even at
the private level.
So we teach it that way.
I teach it that way in a
normal living three dimensional students
and we teach it that way in
our app.
But I also think that's a huge
bit of like a, of gold.
So when people say to me like,
oh, I don't need your app.
I already did my ground
school, I already passed my written.
I'm like, well, wait a minute,
you know, check it out, there's a
free trial.
You can go into the flight
side, look for these little gold
nuggets that maybe you
haven't, maybe your instructor didn't
teach you that way.
And to make it easier for
people, that's the kind of stuff
we're going to bring forward
and just make like a mini course
for anybody that has never
seen a full set of single pilot SOPs,
you know, and they're not,
they're not mine.
I mean, I took these SOPs from
professional single pilot operators
over the years.
Yeah, absolutely.
They're mine as much as
they're anybody's.
But it's one place for
everyone to kind of find it out,
which is really cool.
But we are here today to one,
talk about the app, obviously, because
it's great, fantastic.
And then like you said, it's
your baby.
But number two, continue the
series of no great.
I love learning more about it.
Continue the series of how to
become a pilot.
We did student pilot, we did
private pilot, instrument pilot,
and who knows how long we'll
go on for this.
Maybe we'll do space rocket pilot.
If we can get someone
qualified to talk about that in your
mind, I'll start it off with this.
What makes a good instrument student?
We talked about private students.
We talked about, before you
become a private, all the work you
need to do.
But when you get to
instrument, it's a different language.
Everything you learned is
going to be so different than what
you're about to do and so foreign.
How much pre work should
someone do?
Like should.
Should someone complete a full
course before they even go for their
instrument flying?
Um, learn on the fly.
Just kind of talk about what I
should do before I even start flying
instrument.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Well, I think because it's
your second thing potentially, or
at least you've done a
certificate already, it makes more
sense with the instruments to
go through the written before you
get started.
You know, with the private.
If it's.
If you're brand new to flight
training and you do it that way,
it's.
You're easily overwhelmed or
you're going to read things that
just don't make sense.
Pappy.
You read about Pappy three
months ago, but then you're out there
in the field and your
instructor says, hey, there's a Pappy.
You're like, what the heck was
that thing I read about?
You know, you don't remember.
But now that you know what
becoming a pilot is like, going into
the instrument rating, you
really should get a lot of that ground
knowledge out of the way
because you don't want to be worrying
about things like chart
symbology or what is an mea or what
is a mocha or an a roca.
You want all that knowledge in
place because flying instruments
is more advanced, it's more
complex, and it's straight up harder.
So that basic knowledge you
just kind of need to have in place.
And I always say to new
instrument students, flying instruments
is like doing something you've
always done and that you know how
to do well.
Like riding a bike, for example.
Only now you're blindfolded
and you have a little elf on Your
shoulder telling you what's happening.
Here comes a turn.
Here comes a turn.
Here comes a turn.
Okay, lean, lean, lean.
Stop your turn.
Stop your turn.
You know, like.
And every bit of information
you're getting is by definition old.
You know, it's just slightly old.
Doesn't have to be that old.
Here comes the turn.
Turn.
Now I turn.
You know, it's like, that's
how instrument flying works.
So getting comfortable with that.
And the.
There's.
There's an analogy in
instrument flying, too.
And I always put these
pictures that I'm giving you here
and the listeners.
I always put these pictures in
people's minds.
The other one I do is like,
imagine you have an office floor,
like a whole office floor,
where you've got different rooms.
And I always imagine something
circular, like a circular tower with
a hallway that goes around the outside.
And there's all these
conference rooms, let's say six conference
rooms.
And you're the boss, and your
job is to make sure that all six
teams in those conference
rooms finish at exactly the same
time in 30 minutes.
So you have to run into one
room and say, how you guys doing?
You're doing good.
Okay, everything's fine.
Okay, I'll be right back.
You're into the next room.
Like, how you guys doing?
Okay, everything's good.
I'll be right back.
You run into the third room.
They're like, sir, we got a problem.
There's no way we can handle this.
You're like, okay, good.
Hold on a minute.
I'll be right back.
You know, and you, like, you
figure out how you're going to work
that problem.
But you can't go into that
problem and stay there till 6 without
going into the other rooms.
You can't just say, okay, you
got a problem.
Let's roll up our sleeves and
let's spend the next 30 minutes finishing
this.
Because there's other rooms
happening, right?
So flying instruments is a
little bit like that.
There's flying the airplane.
There's programming the radios.
There's navigating, there's
communicating with air traffic control.
There's briefing, what you're
going to do when you get there.
There are a lot of different
things that have to be done at once.
But because nothing can be
done at once, it's a lot of checking
in with little things.
And if you are.
If you find yourself deep in a
problem, it's a red flag.
Like, lift your head up and
figure out what are you missing.
Like, you're stuck in a room
right now, and maybe you do have
a problem.
But if you don't pick your
head up and come out of that room,
other problems are going to
happen and the whole thing is going
to go off the rails.
Right.
So that picture, I think is
important also.
And then the last one I'll
give you for instrument flying is
the juggler.
You know that there is a
physic, I call it a physiological
reaction, but everybody has
it, myself included, everybody.
The saturation point where you
can't think anymore and you can tell
when a student's there because
you could say like, what's your name?
And they'll say standby.
They literally can't even hear
what's your name.
They can't process the question.
They can't answer Jason.
So they say, stand by.
That person is saturated.
The good news is the
saturation point is like a muscle.
And the image that we paint
for it is, you know, like a juggler.
Juggling balls.
Juggling one ball, you throw
them another ball.
Three balls or two balls,
three balls, four balls, five balls,
six balls are really good.
Eventually there's going to
come a ball where they can't catch
it.
And when they can't catch it,
they don't just miss that one.
The whole house of cards comes down.
And that's what happens at the
saturation point.
And so as a cfi, if you're
aware of that and you have to make
your student aware of it, you
know, like if you work with it is.
What I'm saying is, like, you
push your student to the saturation
point.
You push them right there and
then you dial it back.
Push them right there and dial
it back.
Autopilot is a great example.
Let's say you're pushing a
student and they're hand flying and
they're this, that, or whatever.
And you see that they're at
the saturation point.
Okay, take control of the
airplane and engage the autopilot.
Take.
Dial it back one notch.
Same situation.
But you just took the room
called flying the airplane and you
put a manager in there.
Yeah, you know, like that,
that's, that's fixed now.
But what instrument candidates
or applicants or people working on
their instrument rating will
realize and what CFIs who don't already
understand this will realize
is that the saturation point is a
muscle like it is.
You'll notice that it's like
maxing in weight.
You can, you know, what
saturated you 2 months ago is no
longer saturating you, and you
are now able to handle that much
more and that much more and
that much more.
And, you know, it's not just flying.
I'm sure this goes on in life.
I mean, I've heard people say,
like, can you imagine somebody?
You know, just think of any
billionaire person you could think
of, like an Elon Musk or something.
How much he has to do in a day
versus how much I have to do in a
day.
And he wasn't born that way.
That's like the saturation
muscle that's just getting better
and better and better and
better and better until you're like,
what Jeff Bezos has in 1.9
million employees or something, you
know?
Yeah.
And so flying and flying on
instruments is like, that.
You can get really good.
So.
Yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, I'm just thinking back
when you were saying all the stuff
I was thinking about to my
experience with instrument flying,
and there's definitely a
moment, and you really have to count
on your instructor to kind of.
I feel I think it's best for
your instructor to ease you into
it.
Right.
Not just throw you to the
wolves, because then you're like,
all right, screw that.
I'm not doing that.
But figuring out where your
saturation point is and your breaking
point of where you just shut
down and, like you said, like, the
house falls down and crumbles.
Like, you can't do simple math.
You can't turn.
You can't say luck.
You're just done.
Until we can figure out, all
right, what do we need to do?
Just fly the airplane, and
then we'll focus on that and then
go from there.
Um, which, by the way, is the
most important thing for you to ever
do is just make sure you're
always flying the airplane.
Uh, you can worry about
headings out.
Just fly the airplane.
Um, but it's the breathing part.
Yeah, I know, right?
Yeah.
Maybe breathe through that
helps as well.
But there's definitely a break
point for everyone.
And it happened just because,
you know, you and your buddies start
at the same time.
Just because they can do more
than you at a certain point doesn't
mean that you're a bad pilot.
Doesn't mean that you can't
get it.
There's this point in
instrument flying, which I can't
really explain why, but it's
essentially you're just hitting your
head against the wall until
you break through.
That's going to happen at
someone for 20 hours of instrument
flying.
It's going to happen for 40
hours for someone.
It's just however your brain
can kind of conceptualize and put
the big picture together.
It was all Steps.
For me, it was learning, like
you said, like the verbiage, learning
what everything meant on the
charts, learning how to talk on the
radio.
And then toward the end, it
was learning how to put everything
together and be like, all
right, this is why I'm holding.
This is why I'm turning this one.
Listening to two planes ahead
of you or the plane ahead of you.
Be like, all right, well,
they're getting vectored on in the
approach.
I can expect this vector as well.
Or they're holding, so I can
expect this hold.
Kind of understanding the why
behind instrument flying and the
why the controllers are doing
what they're doing.
Uh, so it's definitely.
It's definitely gonna take
steps, it's definitely gonna take
time, and eventually you're
gonna break through.
Uh, it might take you a while.
That's fine.
There are plenty of people
that I know that it probably took
them a long time, and they're
flying for the airlines.
So you're good, man.
You're good.
Or girl, whatever.
Yeah, yeah, you will get there.
Um, I like.
You know, this is like, I have.
I have.
How do I say this?
My instrument program is, I
believe, radically different from
all others.
And I realized, like, the way
you described it, by the way, and
I think you're absolutely
right, that as you go through, you
get that the finer points, the
kind of awareness of the.
Whys, context and all that.
But the way you described the
training is the way most people do
it, right?
Where you're like, okay, you
learn to fly the plane, then you
learn to work the radios, then
you learn to fly the courses, then
you learn to fly the ils.
I don't do it that way, so we
don't do it that way.
And in the ground school app,
if you go to the instrument course,
you'll see the way we do it.
And I think, for example, so
what I do is I use what I call template
flights.
And so if you and I were
working on your instrument rating,
the first template flight
might be San Carlos to Stockton,
specifically along airways.
So we will request the airways.
So we'll go Santa, you know,
San Carlos radar vectors, Oakland,
Victor 6, Altam intersection,
then direct, maybe.
Who knows?
I don't know if that's the
exact right route, something like
that.
But we're going to repeat,
we're going to fly that flight on
your very first day when you
come as your intro flight, we're
going to fly it in the system
with all equipment working, autopilot
on.
And just so you can see the
context of Everything.
Getting a clearance, waiting
for release, taking off, seeing the
whole thing point to point.
That'd be the first time we
fly the template flight.
Then we might take two or
three days to go out and build some
skills.
Okay.
You're going to have to learn
how to fly the plane.
You're going to have to learn
how to navigate the radios and all
these things.
But then before too many days,
we go back to that very first flight.
Only now you're flying it
maybe, and I'm, you know, flying
still autopilot, still everything.
And we plug the skills back
into that same flight and we'll keep
revisiting that, just that one
flight, until you can understand
what it feels like in your
body to be ahead of the airplane,
to be thinking and talking
ahead of the airplane.
Right.
And only then will we take
what we've learned and move it to
template flight two.
Okay, now let's see what this
looks like.
If it ends at a non precision
approach and, you know, or a non
towered airport or something
like that.
And in the course of training,
there'll be three, maybe four template
flights until we start getting
really advanced and then we're going,
you know, all over.
You know, you're still, in a
way, you're still easing them into
it though, right?
Like you're showing them the
big picture, but you are.
Maybe not.
Maybe you'll do the radios or
maybe they'll fly, but each time
you're kind of adding another
scale in there, which essentially
is, yeah, is still easing them in.
And I think that's like we
both talked about is you can't just
really, you can, you can throw
them to the fire and that Some people
might figure it out, but it's
definitely a good way to ease them
in like that and take some of
the burden off of their, their hands
so they can just focus on the
flying or the learning.
Um, so you're still doing that
in a way for that.
Which I really like.
If I was a cfi, that idea
sounds great to me.
Cause it is funny how if you
just ch as simple as changing the
flight plan or as simple as
changing an ILS to an RNAV or a VOR
approach, like just that one
change can mess you up for the whole
flight, right?
Like you could take off,
everything go fine.
You're like, all right, well,
we're going to do the approach you've
never done before and probably
haven't looked at in a while other
than I told you to look at all
the approaches last night.
But you're not going to do the vor.
I'm going to be like, what?
And you're just going to think
about the vor.
You're going to miss calls.
You're going to do just sloppiness.
Right.
So I think that's, that's
definitely the way to do it.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And that's, and it's maybe a
subtle distinction.
Cause like you said, you're
still easing them in.
But what we're doing is
putting the primary instructional
focus on the ability to think
and talk in front of the airplane.
For example, what I want more
than the student understanding the
differences between an ILS and
a vor.
That's less important to me
than the student realizing they're
getting a little stressed.
They need to slow the airplane
down and they're able to say, okay,
when I get to Altam
intersection, it's going to be a
right turn to a heading of 040.
I'm going to switch my GPS to
the navigational signal.
I want.
I verified that.
I identified it.
My flow checks and checklists
are done for right now.
I have no time to start and
I'll report reaching.
Okay.
When I get there, I will.
So their ability to recognize
the big picture, create the time
they need to push their mind
out in front of the airplane and
verbalize it is way more
important to me as a fundamental
skill.
Like I always say to students,
I'm not worried that you're going
to be able to hold altitude,
hold needles, hold headings, fly
approaches.
Zero concern.
I have zero, zero concern that
by the end of this instrument rating,
you'll be able to do that.
What I'm more concerned about
is that you're going to be the kind
of pilot who understands the
big picture and can think and talk
in front of the airplane.
And that has a ritualized
procedure based on decades of professional
experience that you're going
to use to fly this like you're the
chief pilot of your own flight op.
You know, like you would hire
yourself to fly your kids, you know,
to be like a real, like 1
percenter in it.
And so it's subtle.
It's like all the things you
said, you are easing them in, but
you're orienting it around
these scenarios to how does it feel?
Were you able to talk in front
of the plane?
Were you able to do all your checklists?
Were you able to.
All those things.
And there's an.
Like you to your point,
there's enough variables in the same
flight over and over again for
people mostly not to get bored.
You know, ATC will try to
vector you or they'll have to give
you delay things or maybe a
hold or like, things will come up.
But it's not like, like, like
what you said.
If you switch the approach,
which is this is when I noticed that
when I was going through
instrument rating or instrument training,
was that like, for me, it was
more like my instructor would say,
okay, last week we went to Napa.
We did the localizer.
This week, let's go over here
to NAS and I'm going to show you
an LNAV approach and then next time.
Okay, well, we did those two already.
So let's go to Santa Rosa.
I want you to see an ils, right?
There was a lot of that.
And it's like if you do that,
like you said, there's so many changes
going from ILS to VR that this
100% of the students learning energy
and all of it will be put into
the details.
What's different about this?
Okay, this has this approach
or what does this mean?
The timing thing has
absolutely nothing to do with those
core fundamental skills of
staying in front of the airplane
that I was talking about and
having like a ritualized procedure
for checklists and all the
things that at the end of the day,
I believe are going to keep
you safe.
Yeah, you know, we can argue
about the, I mean, not argue, but
we could not.
You and I, I mean, the student
and I, we could talk about the differences
between different approaches,
like, you know, till we're blue in
the face.
That's why I always say to the
students, it's like, I'm not worried
about that stuff.
Like, at the end of the day,
we're going to run through so many
different approaches.
We're going to have so many
little mini oral sessions and phase
checks.
Like, there's no way you're
going to get through this without
being able to hold altitude
and fly approaches.
Let's take a break from
today's episode to hear from our
sponsor, RAA Justin here.
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back to today's episode.
How so in the airline world
and you know, bigger jet world, what's
very important in any approach
and what's being taught.
What has been taught is being
stabilized, having criteria where
you're stabilized at a certain
spot, whether it's 500ft, a thousand
feet, you need to be in
certain parameters.
Now smaller airplanes, you
don't have someone to tell on you.
You don't have a chief pilot
looking over you.
So it's a lot of the honor system.
When you're flying 172s and
you're flying smaller banana or bonanzas
or whatever it is you're
flying, how important do you or how
much emphasis do you put on
stabilize approaches in instrument?
Um, cause like you said,
there's a lot going on right now.
You might be getting all these
kind of, you may be getting all these
instructions and all of a
sudden you're, you find yourself
at the final approach fix and
maybe you haven't put your gear down
or you're not configured or
you're going 15 knots fast.
Um, how like is, is that
something you're constantly thinking
about in this world?
I know smaller airplanes have
the assumption that they can be more
forgiving, which I mean
obviously you're not going to stop
in 6,000ft or to 3,000ft like
these bigger jets.
But there is danger,
especially when you get into Moonies
that just don't want to stop
flying that you over on runways that
you have incursions and when
you, when something bad happens,
you want everything going in
your favor.
So stabilization is amazing
and is huge.
But I kind of long worded that
question, but how important is stabilization
for you when you're teaching ifr?
It's.
Well, it's certainly not as
important as it is in flying heavy
jets, you know, and I, and I
always want to use a little bit of
caution when we like I think
for example, how checklists are used
as an example of how we've
really misunderstood two crew versus
single pilot environments.
Right.
We don't use in.
I mean I do, but in general in
ga pilots are teaching checklist
usage as though there are two
pilots there.
Whereas if you go get hired by
Pac Valley or Ameriflight or I don't
know if Ameriflight does
single pilot anymore, but you get
hired by somebody that does
single pilot.
It's all about flow checks and
acronyms and then pick up the checklist
because there's no other
pilot, there's no pilot monitoring.
Right.
So we have to be careful when
we take crew or heavy transport category
procedures and bring them down
into ga.
A lot of times it's fantastic,
but we do have to use caution.
So with stabilization, for
example, being stabilized is a just
more critical for an aircraft
with a lower thrust to weight ratio.
I can arrest a thousand foot
per minute descent in about 3 seconds
in assess time.
That's just a reality.
That's just a truth.
But if you're coming down in a
big heavy jet at 1,000ft per minute,
you're not going to stop that
in three seconds.
It's going to be six or seven
seconds before power even hits the
engines.
So you're just in a situation
where stabilization in the ways you're
talking about it matters more.
For example, this comes up a
lot of times when people ask me,
hey, do you put flaps down
outside the final approach fix?
And it's kind of a trick question.
In most light airplanes, I do not.
And my logic is, how often are
you out there flying 5 mile finals
with 10 degrees of flaps?
Like that's a very unusual situation.
Why would you put yourself in
an unusual situation when you can't
see out the window?
Like, why would you not fly
the plane?
In a way you always fly the plane.
And a lot of the things you're
talking about with the Mooney, this
is another buffer that we have
that you guys do not have at all.
Like in a heavy jet, when
you're coming in at 130, 40 knots
or whatever, you guys approach
at 120 maybe sometimes.
Or what do you approach at 130?
The 737 is fast.
So the 737, it's like 149 to
150 something.
The latitude was like 100 to
110, right?
Your whole world is more critical.
So not only are you not able
to arrest descents if they're not
stabilized as rapidly and just
have to be that much further in front
of the airplane.
If you don't hit the touchdown
zone of the Runway, you got a problem.
And you've got a short window
of time to figure out that that's
true.
In a light airplane, even a
Mooney, some of that is like we have
consider that we have a huge buffer.
For example, if the weather is
low enough to require us actually
flying down to say 200ft above
the ground, then it's an ILS and
we have 5,000ft of Runway in
front of us.
You have to be pretty off on
your speed to blow 5,000ft or more
of Runway.
And Even in a Mooney.
But you'd have to be 20 knots
fast or.
I mean, I don't even know.
I do remember one time flying
into McCarran in a DA20 where I had
737s behind me.
So I flew the approach at 120,
I think, or 130, and then just pulled
power to idle over the threshold.
And it took me the full length
of the Runway, which was like 8,
000ft, to actually slow down
and land.
I don't know if I saved
anybody time.
But my point is there's a huge buffer.
Those are two completely
different worlds just before we even
really start talking about it, right?
Two different worlds.
So when it comes to flaps
outside the final approach fix, like
I said, if I'm in a 172, I do
not do that.
I fly in at 90 knots in a
clean configuration because that's
the most familiar and
comfortable and normal configuration.
And there's no world in which
I'm not going to see that Runway,
be able to go power idle, add
my flaps and land if I need the flaps.
That's how I've always done it.
That's how I do it.
The alternative to that, the
quote stabilized version, would be
to set the 10 degrees of flaps
at the final approach fix, figure
out some power settings.
So now you're in this somewhat
unique configuration that you only
use when flying final approach
fix inbound, you know, on an instrument
approach, and then you'll be
able to come down.
Now you're still probably
going to add more flaps if you see
the Runway.
I mean, I don't know if the
assumption is you land with 10, you
don't ever change flaps after that.
But there are people that are
trying to take the heavy transport
world and the, the things that
you're saying are really, really
important there and bring them
down into ga.
And my point is just we have
to use caution.
Like sometimes it's not necessary.
Now if it's a high performance
plane, a Bonanza, a Mooney, a Cirrus,
something like that, I do add
flaps outside the final approach
fix, just the first notch.
So there you go.
I flew may not have rhyme or
reason and I think the only value
I could add there is just to
have people use caution.
Yeah.
The other one really quickly
is the thousand foot per minute descent
which I feel is completely
stabilized in a, in a light aircraft.
So my students all can fly 90
knots and 500ft per minute or a separate
non precision approach descent
of 90 knots and a thousand feet per
minute.
But again, in assassin, you
can arrest a thousand foot per minute
descent just by power into the
green, and it's.
It's over.
Yeah.
Uh, this is a comment about
putting flaps in.
Well, before the final
approach fix, I was fine with Josh
from Aviation 101.
We flew to Garmin headquarters
from Dallas.
Uh, hopefully the video's out
by the time this comes out.
But I.
In my mind, I was, like,
thinking, how do I fly this when
I fly jet?
It's like, all right, well,
we're putting flaps out, like, on
downwind, on base, or put
another notch.
We're fully configured gear
flaps full.
And it's.
And I was like, I forgot how
long things take in a 1 72, if that
makes sense.
Like, yeah, initial approach
adds another 20, 25 minutes to a
flight, which is just what was
kind of baffling to me.
And I was like, all right,
we're still on downwind.
We haven't even turned base yet.
It's been eight minutes.
Welcome to my world.
Yeah.
It's like, wow, this takes forever.
It's like I wasted.
Wasted a ton of money on my
instrument training by just shooting
approaches all the time.
Right.
But anyways, this is a great dovetail.
What you just said is reminded
me, because that's how pilots in
Europe are taught, and it
drives me crazy.
So I'll have these guys come
over from Switzerland or France or
Germany, and they want to fly
with me to improve their VFR skills.
Right.
They think I'm a cowboy
because they're all taught to fly
172s.
Like you just said, it'll be like.
And they say it like airline pilots.
They'll be like, at the abeam
position, they'll be a flaps one,
you know, and then.
Then we go out, you know, four
miles out, and we turn, and it's
flaps two, and everything's set.
And Richard would have pulled
my power to idle and said, you just
lost your engine over East Oakland.
Where are you going?
You know what I mean?
So back to that ostrich approach.
The real issue in a Cessna is,
do I have enough altitude to glide
to the Runway?
Which is a totally different
issue than you have when you're out
there flying in your 737.
You're not worried about where
you're going to go if your engine
fails.
So you're flying these, you
know, you're putting flaps in on
the downwind or whatever.
But it drives me bananas when
I fly with, like, instrument European
pilots that fly small
airplanes that way.
Yeah.
I'm saying where are you going
to go if your engine fails?
Like Oakland is back there.
Yeah, like four miles now back
there you could have gone power to
idle and glided around in a
short approach, you know.
So that's an example of where
a big transport category procedure
would be the wrong thing to do
in a light airplane.
Yeah, for sure.
And I think more Europeans are
taught to fly every plane like an
airliner because I think
obviously their, their kind of mold
is, you know, at 250 hours you
can go through a cadet program and
be flying right seat in a 737.
So they're just teaching you
to fly an airliner.
But just the concepts.
You start in a 7,172.
Moving on a little bit from that.
What do you see are big kind
of threats or are big stumping grounds
for instrument students?
Well, I think there's a lot of
instrument students that never actually
learn how to fly instruments, unfortunately.
I think there's a lot of
people that get instrument rated
that don't feel comfortable
flying in the clouds, that don't
ever fly in the clouds.
I hear stories of double eyes
instrument instructors that say they
don't feel comfortable flying
in clouds.
So there's that.
You know, I think there's a
lot of people that figure I'm going
to get my instrument rating,
I'm going to get my commercial, I'm
going to get my CFI and get
hired and I'll fly in the cloud soon
enough, but I'm going to do it
in an airliner with a captain next
to me.
And that's like where they get
their first imc, you know, or in
their first job.
Yeah, so that's a real hazard,
you know, because I mean, it's not
a hazard, I guess, if you're
never going to fly instruments in
a light airplane.
But it would be a hazard if
you're a person who wants to fly
instruments in a light
airplane and you meet that flight
instructor and that's like,
you know, and you don't know it.
So.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And then I.
Sorry, go ahead.
I was a hundred percent agree.
I mean, going straight into
flying single pilot IFR is much different
than doing simulated
instrument and simulated approaches
with the foggles.
You still have some sort of
idea of where you are.
Like your body can tell a
little bit if you're straight and
level.
If you're turning, you know,
you can still see the ground.
Right.
You can still see out of the
small corner of your eye, but IFR
and then you start adding thunderstorms.
You start adding icing and
your brain, you're constantly moving
and your equilibrium's getting
all off.
It's like having the actual
versus simulated instrument flying
is huge.
Especially if you want to be
an airline pilot and especially if
you ever think you'd be flying
an approach.
You know, it's like you don't
want to have your first time flying
actual instruments when you
actually need it.
If that makes sense.
Right?
Yeah.
No, 100%.
And I think, you know, like,
if people wanted to see, just check
out what we put in the flight
side of our instrument course.
I think really what we want to
emulate is like we said earlier,
single pilot, professional operators.
That's who.
If we in ga, if we want to
aspire to be anybody, it's those
amazing short haul cargo
pilots where they've got one pilot
in the plane.
You don't ever hear about them
because they never get in accidents.
They're up four in the morning.
Right.
And they're out, you know.
Right.
Like the procedures that they use.
If I had to give something to
the instrument folks that are going
through it right now, I think
take that template idea is really
the most valuable, valuable
thing I can add.
Get, get your instructor to
stop forcing you to shoot pool while
the balls are still moving.
You know, like settle it all
down by repeating the same flight,
going out and like you said,
Justin, you know, slowly walking
into the skills, but then go
back to the same thing you've seen
so that you can actually measure.
Did the work you did on the
skills, did it, did it really do
anything?
I think that's a big thing.
And then seeking out imc, like
even vacations.
I, I've always thought about
doing, you know, how we run those
airplane camp trips.
That's where we started the call.
I always thought a great one
would be like living the life of
a freight dog for a weekend.
You know, come to California
in August and we'll get up at 4 in
the morning and we'll just be
IMC all day on the coast.
You know, we'll go from Lake
Santa Barbara to Eureka and just
fly approach after approach.
Don't invite me to that
aviation camp.
I don't want to come to that one.
You don't?
I've already done that.
I don't need to do that again.
I want the one where Catalina.
I want the one where we're
going to Napa, you know, we're stopping
at Wineries, you know, I want
the fun part, which fun might not
be the right term because you
would think that was fun because
you haven't done that before.
But I have done that enough.
I'm good.
Good.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I get to do it
all, all the time.
Maybe not at 4 in the morning,
but, you know, lesson signs of 0600.
But I just happen to think, I think.
My point is, I think that here
where I live, and I'm up in the mountains
now, but the Bay Area is right
there and it's some of the best instrument
training in the world, really.
There are probably parts of
like Israel, Lebanon, Turkey that
get the same effect off the,
off the east side of the Mediterranean,
maybe parts of Spain.
But like, there aren't that
many places that get the.
This deep, thick advection fog
and it's, you know, bases at sometimes
200ft and a quarter mile is
tops at 5,000ft.
No wind, no ice, no
thunderstorms, no nothing.
Just a blanket of fog.
Yeah.
And you know, you can go
experience that and get your ticket
wet and make it a vacation.
Yeah.
Come out, stay for a weekend.
And yeah, I'm not the only guy either.
I mean, I think honestly, if
anybody who's listening to this is
interested in doing that, that
just call any of the flight schools
in Palo Alto or San Carlos and
they'll get you up there making an
IFR vacation.
Now, all those instructors are
comfortable with it.
You have to be or you can't
teach them.
Yeah.
And then you have complex
airspace to throw into that with
San Francisco, with Oakland,
with all the deltas in the area.
So, yeah, it's definitely a
little bit interesting out there,
that's for sure.
Yeah, I mean, it's good for that.
It's not good for
understanding other weather.
So I always like, worry about
my students when they tell me they're
going back to fly in Virginia
or something in the summer, I'm like,
okay, let's talk again about
thunderstorms just one more time.
Yeah, there's a difference
between, between shooting a minimum
to an approach to minimums in
fog that's relatively smooth and
calm.
Then thunderstorms are down
drafts and updrafts and crosswinds.
Right.
Oh, yeah.
It's like.
No, you get spoiled.
It's a.
I call it a playground.
I mean, it's not to say that
you can't get in trouble.
Yeah, you, you can.
But as far as IFR IFR goes,
it's benign.
It's what we would call light ifr.
I love that.
You know, even if it's at
minimum, it's like, you know, I Don't
know.
Yeah, it's not hard IFR for sure.
That's good to know.
Yeah.
But it'd be incredible practice.
Just the ability to fly the
approach all the way to minimums
and then execute the mist and
still be in the soup and.
Yeah.
And I'm guessing icing is not
necessarily something you have to
worry about constantly where
you are now, the higher you go, obviously.
But, I mean, in the wintertime
in North Carolina, I remember when
I was doing my training was
about 3,000ft was where the icing
level seemed to live.
3 to 4,000ft.
So you could sneak a flight in there.
Uh, if it went higher, you're good.
But when I did my private
pilot training, it seemed like the
freezing level is always on
the ground in Ohio.
So it was much different up in
Ohio than it was in North Carolina.
It gave you the ability to fly
more hard.
I.
Hard ifr.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's, to be
fair, a world I don't know a whole
lot about.
I mean, I know that I get away
with a lot.
So in terms of my own personal
minimums, I don't fly IFR when the
freezing levels are at or
below the mea.
But partially that's because I
fly in California, you know, I mean,
I know.
I think I said that to flight
shops once.
And he's like, well, yeah, but
I'm in Toronto, so I'm gonna call
a different instructor.
You know, I mean, like, there
are folks that understand the.
The way ice works.
Yeah.
In those really cold
temperatures, you might be one of
them.
It's a world that I don't have
to deal with, at least not yet.
And so I just make my minimums easy.
And I fly tons of ifr
primarily because of where I live.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Icing sucks, man.
Stay away from it if you can.
So stay where you're at.
Yeah, yeah.
Once I.
I think it was Mac McClellan
from Flying Magazine.
He used to write the business,
or maybe he still writes the business
column.
I don't know.
Anyway, he once said that he
thought fiki was just silly for any
airplane.
Like, he thought no airplane, zero.
He's.
And he flew golf streams and
all sorts of things.
He said, like no airplane
should be approved for flight into
known icing.
He said, I don't care what
airplane I'm in.
When I start to ice up, I look
for a way to get out, you know?
So, yeah, it's cute.
I mean, sometimes you gotta go
in and lay it.
I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, this is
different than talking a 172 or whatever
it is.
But, you know, a lot of these
routes are, you're going off to Buffalo
and people want to get in and
the plane's capable of knocking off
ice.
So why aren't you gonna go?
You know, it's kind of,
obviously there's, there's levels
to it.
If it's too bad you don't go,
you go around, you go somewhere else.
So there's definitely a safety
factor there.
But, but I mean, you're
picking up some ice and planes like
you said, Fiki flying in and
icing, it's good to go.
You got a hot wing for a reason.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's true.
And in an airliner, hey,
that's a whole different animal.
Yeah.
Like, by the way, when I say I
don't fly in freezing levels at or
below the meas, that's an
aircraft without deicing equipment.
Yeah, yeah, deicing equipment.
That minimum is not.
Yeah, but I think, you know,
we have to use caution in a plane
like a cirrus, for example,
which is technically feaky.
But when trouble pretty fast.
One of the last questions I'll ask.
We can.
Don't want to keep you too
long with this.
I don't want it to be like a
two hour episode.
But when you talk about going
to the IFR checkride, talk about,
obviously we had the written
knocked out.
We talked about that.
It's important.
Knocked the written out early on.
Use the ground school app.
Use whatever you need to do to
get it done.
Mock oral, check rides.
Everything is in there.
But talk about.
I guess I'll say it this way.
My very first check ride, I
was not prepared for ifr.
I actually feared my failed my
IFR check ride.
Uh, I didn't prepare well enough.
I just trusted my cfi.
It was kind of like, all
right, let's go, let's go, let's
go.
And I was like, all right, cool.
Let's go, let's go, let's go.
And then I got there and it
was just like a disaster.
Uh, then it didn't feel ready
for the check ride.
Just took it anyways.
But I.
How do you go into the IFR
check ride?
Do you think it's easier
knowing that you know how check rides
work from the ppl check ride?
Do you think it's just a whole
different beast?
Because it's like a different language.
It's kind of a whole different beast.
You know, the mistakes, like
at the end of the day that I see
A lot of pilots make silly
things like not like, like they get
rushed or they'll be flying
around with, with hsis that aren't
tuned to any nav signal.
Yeah, they enter a hold maybe
the wrong way just like they get
tired.
So like, like I do a bit of
coaching with instrument students
going into the checkride.
I always tell em to bring a
Snickers, it's a long checkride.
Or bring some like blood sugar
boost, whatever, you know, picks
you up a little bit.
Some piles.
Coffee.
Yeah, yeah, like iced coffee
or soda or something like that.
Cause there's going to come a
point where you're tired.
The main thing that will save
your life under IFR is the ability
to slow the airplane down to recognize.
I mean on the checkride
thread, to recognize when you're
getting pushed.
One of the tricks that I
always do to my students and I know
there are examiners out there
that do it when things are going
well, we'll fly an approach,
we'll miss the approach.
And I'll say I know they're
not ready.
Like I know they're not ready.
They haven't even quite got to
the missed approach hold yet or something
like that.
And I'll say, okay, you ready
for the next one?
You know, I'd like to just
like nudge them along and see if
they go, yeah, yeah, I'm like
I'm ready for the next one or whatever.
What they really need to say
to me is no, like standby, I need
a second.
Yeah, like once they're able
to say that to me and to air traffic
control and understand they
need to kind of slow down and create
space for themselves.
I feel a whole lot better
about the checkride, that ability
to sort of recognize when
that's happening, create the space
you need to stay in front of
the airplane.
When the examiner sees that
there's going to be something that
flips in their brain, they're
looking for that.
Yeah, they want to see that,
you know, that you can handle that.
Yeah, they want to see how you
handle adversity.
Every instrument check ride is
going to have come to a point where
they're going to push you.
Any good examiner, at least
they're going to push you to, to
the point where they want to
see how you handle it and they want
to see if you overcome it and
if you just breeze right through
it.
And if you don't breeze right
through it, they want to see how
you react.
Right.
They want to see if you slow
the airplane down, if you take a
little Bit of time.
If you ask for vectors off the
approach to kind of go hold and figure
it out, do it again.
Those are all good answers.
The bad answer is just blowing
down the ils, just happy, dumb and
just smiling and having no
idea what's going on.
You know, if you find yourself
in a checkride and you think it's
too easy, it's probably
because you're missing something,
right?
Yeah, 100%.
And for CFIs who are listening
to this, the way I would walk into
what I just said to test your
student is, you know, you have to
do three approaches.
So after the second approach
before you think your student is
fully ready, like they haven't
briefed that approach yet would be
a great indicator.
They haven't pulled out the
plate and briefed it yet.
Just say to them when able,
tell air traffic control you'd like
the localizer Runway three at
Hayward next.
Or whatever air traffic control.
Air traffic control will do
all the work after that.
If your student keys the mic
and says to air traffic control,
hey, we want the whatever
approach it is next.
Air traffic control
immediately is going to say, okay,
I advise when you have the
ATIS, turn left heading 030.
Let me know when you have the
one minute weather.
Whatever they start saying to
you, they're going to take you off
the task you were on.
Now, your students should
recognize this as a.
Holy cow, my instructor, I
just called this person.
I'm overwhelmed.
You know, the instructor
introduced this.
Your student should say like,
either tell you, no, I'm not going
to call them right now, or
when ATC comes back, say, actually
I'm not ready for that
approach yet.
I'd like some delay vectors
while I get, you know, prepared.
ATC would be fine with that.
They'd go, okay, roger, turn
left, whatever, 090, I'll give you
some delay vectors.
If your instructor or examiner
saw you do that, like a big box is
checked, okay, this guy did
not get pushed into rushing.
Did not get pushed into
something you.
Couldn'T do for sure.
That's key.
So yeah.
And then scientific method.
So one of the things that
people will see in the app is whenever
I talk about flying, it's like
everything's a hypothesis until we
can prove it's true.
So like a holding pattern, for
example, if you think it's going
to be a parallel entry, prove it.
And there's this little
methods we can do to prove that you
have the right entry.
And then, then you can talk in
front of the airplane.
If you can verify if you can
guess at it, it prove it, and then
say, okay, when I get to that
fix, here's the five things I'm going
to do.
You're kind of bulletproof.
Yeah, one thing I'll say I'm
so thankful for flying more advanced
fmss.
When I was doing management
training, I was on a standard six
pack with maybe a 430.
But having, you know, G1000s,
now having the Garmin G5000 that
I flew at the.
At NetJets on the latitude,
having the plane know exactly how
to enter hold, it's life
changing, right?
Like, obviously you need to
know what comes next as well and
be prepared if that doesn't work.
But, you know, learning how to
do holds is pretty hard for me.
I had to, like, take myself
out of the airplane, think about
where I was.
Some people are like, doing
this to everything.
It's like just learning how to
do that can be kind of difficult.
Once you get it, it's like,
wow, why did I ever struggle with
that?
But I actually think I watched
one of your videos when I was like
21, trying to figure out how
to do whole.
So thank you for that.
I think I got.
We have a great system, and
first you visualize it on your HSI
and you use your thumb to
check it.
Yeah, it's funny, my.
On my instrument check ride,
it was going fantastically well.
And the guy that I was with
was an old Corsair instructor legend,
Blue fields.
He was 89 years old or
something like that.
I think when I was doing my
check ride, you know, really, I'm
very lucky to have known him
at all.
Yeah, and it was a tough
checkride, man.
Like, I mean, it was tough.
The oral was tough.
Everything was tough.
Everything about Lou was tough.
Just by nature.
I mean, it's just like one of
these old army guys, guys, Navy guys,
really.
But he must have thought I was
doing a good job.
He must have wanted me to pass
because when it came time to enter
holds, I was about to turn the
wrong way.
Like, we got to the fix and I
was about to turn the wrong way.
I can say this now because
Lou's not alive anymore.
And I went to turn and the
yoke wouldn't turn.
Like it just wouldn't go the
way I wanted it to go.
And I look over at Lou and I
could see his finger, his thumb and
his index finger just holding
it down.
He didn't look at me, he just
looks straight ahead.
But he blocked me from turning
the wrong way.
Saved my butt on the checkride
that's awesome.
Shout out to him.
Yeah, shout out to Lou.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, some examiners
know, you know, like, they're like,
all right, this dude's got it.
Like, this is clearly like a
fatigue mistake or something like
that.
And, I mean, there are some
that won't let any mistakes go.
You know, they're like, oh,
sorry, dude, you failed.
But there are definitely some
out there that are like, ah, I got
you, dude.
And you're like, I know.
This was older.
This was.
I don't know if that would fly today.
I mean, this was.
Was.
What was my rating?
1999?
2000, maybe.
Yeah, boy.
Anyway, kind of a different world.
Definitely a different world.
But, Jason, I appreciate you
coming on.
As always.
I appreciate just talking to
you and like I said, we just literally
just start talking and feel
like we just.
We'll leave it in, like I
said, but just talking.
Great information.
So I appreciate coming on.
We'll complete the series
eventually, but we'll do commercial
pilot next whenever we have
the chance.
I know.
Our schedules are so crazy for
that one.
Let's go.
Let's do it.
Thank you.
Thank you, Justin.
I appreciate being here.
So thank you for coming.
Anytime.
If we want the Ground school
app, tell them where to go and how
to get it.
Well, I mean,
LearnTheFinderPoints.com is a place
you can go.
I think your viewers have a
code, right?
They do.
10% off.
I'll put that down below as well.
Yeah, I think it's like.
Anyway.
Yeah, if it's in the description.
Or email us to get that discount.
Yeah, I think it's code Justin.
Or the app Store.
Yeah, yeah.
Learn the finer points of the
app store and use code Justin, which
I'm pretty sure.
Or pilot to pilot.
We'll find out.
Yeah, but look at the description.
That's where you can find it
the best.
Yeah, I should probably.
I should look at that before I
said that.
But, you know, it is what it is.
Got a little podcast.
That's all right.
Yeah, I think it's Justin.
Yeah, let's go with that.
But yeah, man, I appreciate
your time and I appreciate your knowledge.
It's just a lot of fun talking
to all the time times.
And if everyone wants any
other questions, we can always do
a part two.
So send a question either to me.
My email is
justinilotepilothq.com or reach out
to Jason.
And I'm sure you guys know how
to reach out to him.
So thank you so much for your
time and we'll see you later.
Okay.
Awesome.
Justin.
Thanks.
Cool man.
Thanks.
AV Nation.
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