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Today the guys dig into examples of Purpose X and Purpose Y.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome again to Essential Dynamics with Derek Hudson, a podcast in pursuit of clear thinking. I'm Reed McColm, who needs clear thinking, and therefore, I'm talking to Derek Hudson, a deep thinker who helps CEOs and others work through their trickiest opportunities. Hello again, Derek. Hi, Reed. Great to be back with you today.
Derek:I should tell our audience that we are still Zooming because this is a pandemic country. I am very glad to be talking to you, Derek, because last time we sort of settled we settled the drivers and constraints. We've learned we've made, I think, a lot of progress in understanding how you came up with the central dynamics. But there is something that we discussed in a previous podcast that I need more clarification on, and that's purpose x and purpose y. Would you mind tell telling us about that again?
Derek:Sure. Sure. And I think I'll actually start with a story about my daughter because I've I mean, I told her on this podcast. I've told it many times, but I think it really illustrates the point. When my oldest daughter, Alicia, was a young university student, she was you know, just moved out of home a year or two before.
Derek:We were talking one day and she said, you know, dad, when I was a little kid, I used to think that your job as a parent was to make sure that I was happy. And I didn't think you did that good of a job. But then I realized later that what you're trying to do is make sure that I was happy as an adult, and you didn't do that bad. And so I think she really captured in just a few sentences this concept of purpose x and purpose y. As a parent, I want my children to be happy, but really important is that I set them up for success in their whole life.
Derek:And those two purposes aren't opposite, but they're also not the same. And at any particular time, you can't necessarily serve both of them. That's one of the things that got me thinking, along with this idea of dynamic forces, that we do ourselves a disservice if we don't look at our organizations or our own lives and appreciate the subtle challenges there are when we have to fill two purposes. And most organizations or situations have this this inherent conflict of having to accomplish two good things that maybe aren't fully aligned. Well, let's give an example of that in business.
Derek:I assume that a business is to the the purpose x, the obvious purpose x is to stay in business, to make money, to sell widgets, whatever it is that the product they're making is, they want to sell more of them. Is that correct? You know, it it could be. It could be, you know, you talked about a couple things there, stay in business and sell more of them. So one of the conflicts that sometimes is talked about, particularly in theory of constraints, which we've talked about, is the balance between stability and growth.
Derek:If I keep doing the same things, I take less risk, but I also may miss opportunities to grow. So there's a stability versus growth. There would be just a real simple one is, you know, if I if I give everything to my customers and I serve my customers really well and spare no expense, then I may not have a profit. I may not be able to stay in business. So customer satisfaction and profit, that could be a purpose x purpose y.
Derek:And then another thing that we're seeing today in the business world is things like the triple bottom line where you wanna be environmentally and socially conscious as well as making money. And so now their purposes start piling up in terms of what's expected of of an organization. You can't you can't destroy the environment, injure all your workers and make money and say you're successful anymore. Oh, I miss those days. Don't you?
Derek:Yeah. So another, what if what if they're in conflict? What if there's a hidden agenda and it's purpose y is a personal thing and it's in conflict with purpose x? Yeah. That's that's where I mean, that's the environment that many many organizations run with.
Derek:You know? One of the things I discovered in the early days of the pandemic when I was reaching out to business owners is the business becomes an entity separate from the owner. And the owner may have different purposes than the business. And so that, you know, if you don't understand that, if you can't if you can't see it in front of you, then it's it's harder to deal with and you keep trying to solve the problem that you think is the problem and there's this other purpose that gets in the way. So do all purposes ultimately fall to the to the will and desire of the owner?
Derek:Well, I I don't think so because, for example, in a in a for profit business, the customers have a lot of power. That's good. Well, you're making me think of of examples in drama where I'm I'm still thinking drivers and constraints and purpose x and purpose y. I'm I think your theory of purpose x and purpose y falls into drama very easily where the overall obvious arc is is what sells the show. But as an actor, they have to find what purpose why is in their character that has to also be fulfilled.
Derek:Let's take Oklahoma, for instance. It's a it's a ground setting musical of nineteen forty four, forty two. Anyway, in the forties, during World War two, it was supposed to be a flop. They initially called it Away We Go. And when it was in previews out of town, sort of a spy was sent to Walter Winchell of Walter Winchell's sent to Walter Winchell's was a a theater columnist at the time in New York, and he he sent a a plunky or a secretary actually to see Away We Go Out of Town, and she wrote back, no legs, no no legs, no I'm missing a third thing.
Derek:I but no business. No no there will be no business here because she was not impressed with the story because it hadn't been told in that way. It was a it was a groundbreaking story. There was no great big chorus opening number. Instead, it was sort of acapella by the by the hero offstage as he came in singing, oh, what a beautiful morning.
Derek:And and it was not immediately clear what they wanted. When they retitled it Oklahoma, people thought, oh, it's the making of of a state, which it wasn't until the closing number. And then it's, oh, well, now we're gonna be a state. It's wonderful. But up until that time, it was a love story about Curly and Lori wanting each other and how they get to each other despite the fact that farmhand lonely farmhand Judd Fry, unbeknownst to them, was willing to kill in order to also get Laurie.
Derek:So his purpose why was very was in direct conflicts with perfect the perfect purpose x. And and I does that make sense? As I'm trying to explore it, is does it does it apply? I'm not sure because I I think I saw Oklahoma once Oh. Years ago.
Derek:Let me sing it for you now. Yeah. Yeah. So so let me just let me just like, let's let's play with this a little bit because it's it's fun to try and and understand this. So is Curly the protagonist?
Derek:You bet. Of course. Okay. And so let's put it in the context of the the epic journey that Curly's on, which he may not understand it initially. But but what what is what is the obvious thing that Curly's trying to do and what's purpose why for what he's trying to do?
Derek:Just Curly. Well, the obvious thing he's trying to do is win over Lori. He wants he wants to to he wants her to become his wife. Purpose why then? What is his under underlying motivation?
Derek:I suppose he wants to be successful in life, that he wants to be a he's going he has two choices in Oklahoma. He can be a farmer or a cow man. And meaning a rancher or a or a farmer. They're basically a dairy farmer. And those are your those were his choices in at the turn of the century, nineteen o four, '19 o '6.
Derek:And I guess he wanted to to fulfill what he thought a good man would be. So let me pick up on that. That's that's really interesting. We talked a bit about stability and growth as being conflicting purposes. So it seems to me that the cowboy life would be more exciting and the farmer life would be better in terms of being a good husband.
Derek:Stability. Yes. And and so there's that that inherent conflict with, you know, risk and stability. So let me And there's also a conflict in in progress. Oklahoma was was coming to terms with technology, with motor cars, electricity.
Derek:These things were not available in Oklahoma at the time, but they were talked about as being available elsewhere. A character comes in singing about Kansas City that they they built buildings seven stories high, about as high as a building ought to go. And that's that that is a sign that that we're facing new technology, a new era, and certainly, they were. So let me try another one. Let's try try one on you and then let's Alright.
Derek:Let's let's see if we can explore this further. So there's a scene in the fellowship of the ring where Frodo's standing at the edge of the river, there's a boat there, and he's got the ring in his hand. And in my mind, that captures purpose his purpose x and purpose y really clearly. So purpose x, go back to the council of Elrond, and they say, the ring must be destroyed. One of you must do this.
Derek:And Frodo puts his hand up and says, I will take the ring to Mordor. So there's purpose x. Really clear. Just you have to destroy the ring. No one else can.
Derek:Everyone else will be tainted if they touch it. Thirty years. You gotta take what Frodo has to figure out along the way is that his purpose why, which is just, you know, deeply a part of him, is he doesn't want any of his friends to be taken into danger. And he it's his it's his responsibility to destroy the ring no one else's, and he doesn't wanna involve his friends. So he's standing there and says, I have the ring.
Derek:I have to destroy it. The only way to protect my friends is to do it alone, and he jumps in the boat. And that's that's his purpose, action, purpose why. And then the story unfolds. And then Sam wise Sam has a different purpose why, and that his feeling is he has to protect Frodo.
Derek:Right. So we we have that conflict. Frodo has to protect Sam. Sam promised Gandalf. I'll stay with him.
Derek:So that's how that gets resolved, and and off they go, and that creates the team that does the job. Well, that's great. I think those purposes are very clear, much more clear than they were in Oklahoma. So thank you for that. Although I'm a little less familiar with the what could you call it?
Derek:The Fellowship of the Ring. Has that been a musical? So I I think that's a very clear story. I I also think of the Avengers. It's very clear that Thanos is the villain because he wants to destroy half of of of all the universe's universe, I guess.
Derek:Mhmm. Who knows? Yeah. So he wants to destroy half of all life in in favor of starting again, if you will. And the Avengers are very much opposed to that since well, let's face it.
Derek:When it happens, they get decimated. So, also, humanity sort of suffers, I think. Isn't that what happens? It hasn't been a musical yet either, so I haven't come back. But what tell me now.
Derek:You know those movies as well as I do. Those give me Iron Man's purpose x and purpose y. So I don't follow him as well as my six year old grandson who who can tell you what all of this the stones are on on Thanos' gauntlet there. But if if I was to look at Iron Man, two purposes. One is save the world.
Derek:Yeah. And two is establish his own identity as a, you know, legitimate worthy human being or something like that. Okay. And Iron Man Iron Man's got a chip on his shoulder, so that creates a couple of two or three story arcs where people have to throw buses at each other and all kinds of stuff. Two or three.
Derek:I would say that there's think aren't there a dozen? I I think there's a lot of movies to to go through the entire arc. Yeah. So you you know what? And I think that's actually seen in a in a lot of Quest literature, and maybe we can go there for a second.
Derek:You can pull some of those out. But Well, it goes it goes right back to the Odyssey. I mean, it's it's the history of mankind and literature is about a quest. So the the the one quest is is to fight the dragon or save the village. That's like purpose x.
Derek:And purpose y is for the person to find themself. Ah. Is it can you think of some examples of that? Oh, yeah. Well, putting it in those terms, don't we all want to be the best we can be?
Derek:And in quest stories, it's man against environment in like, go back to Lord of the Rings. It's about hobbit versus environment, hobbit versus each other or other species, and then also hobbit against hobbit himself. Frodo trying to reconcile his own temptation to keep the ring, or does he does he go the way of of what what is the name of does he go the the good way and and fulfill the purposes that he's promised Gandalf that he will he will fulfill, or does he become Gollum? It's it's pretty clear what here are your choices. Gollum's life and very, very countenance has been absolutely affected and even destroyed by his passion for the ring.
Derek:And yet that's still not a complete detriment or it doesn't discourage Frodo enough that he doesn't want it to. I think of that as drugs in our modern culture. I think it's amazing. Everybody who takes drugs, no one who takes recreational drugs has been unexposed to the warnings. They all know.
Derek:They all know. And nobody thinks, gee, this is a really good idea for my life. They just think it's a good idea for the moment. And and I think of I think of that parallel when Frodo is himself tempted to to fall under the spell of the ring. Do you think so?
Derek:Oh, absolutely. And and I remember you have to appreciate that the fellowship of the ring came out in the fifties right after World War two. Tolkien himself was a veteran of World War one. Uh-huh. And people took a real sort of allegorical approach to the book, and they say the one rings the bomb.
Derek:Right? Oh. And he's like, no. It's it's it's much more than that. And when you see, you know, Gollum lusting after the ring, it's like, well, you know, that's addiction.
Derek:That's all of the addictions, you know, all of those things that can can tempt us and bring us down because because they don't accomplish a purpose. And and so, you know, we talked earlier episode about, you know, this idea of finding the quest in your life. The great the great thing about the quest is when your purpose is clear, then you can appreciate the things that move you towards it and the and the things that move you away. And, I mean, like, I wasn't expecting to to go here, but, you know, I've had experiences as a as a church leader working with people who are, you know, stuck in really self defeating behavior. Right?
Derek:They are Yes. They're in the in the throes of an addiction. Are you looking at me? No. I am not.
Derek:I'm I'm just looking out the window here. You know? And and some of those are are ones that we might term addiction, like drug addiction or sex addiction or something like that. And and others would just be, you know, attitude and mindsets that really limit us, that that you might not consider that. But what I've seen is I've actually seen people get out of those because they found a sense of purpose.
Derek:Because they uncovered a sense of purpose or changed a sense of I think it's uncovering. You know? I mean, you go back to Iron Man as an example, a tortured soul trying to figure out who he is. That's all of us. And and when you find a clear purpose, then you can, you know, then you can use power, then you can, you know, handle things in moderation.
Derek:Because the the things that advance you towards your purpose are you know, they're self re and we talked about the drivers. Those are self reinforcing drivers. Those are the things you want. I remember my mom saying, you can never get enough of what you don't need. Oh, that's lovely.
Derek:So one of the challenges with this, like, you know, addictive behavior is you're trying to get more and more of something which never satisfies. Yeah. That's lovely. I really I appreciate that a lot. Okay, Derek.
Derek:How does that how does it once we've recognized that we've got a purpose x and a purpose y in business, in life, in family, whatever, how does that improve? How how do we use it now? Well well, I think part of it is that when you understand that you have these complementary or sometimes conflicting purposes, it gives the individual, the organize organization a sense of agency. And you have to figure out either the balance or the solution or the third alternative to accomplish those purposes. That's one of the things that I think we're seeing in corporations these days is as they embrace their social responsibility, they take agency for doing the right thing for all their stakeholders as opposed to being one dimensional and then having regulation and protesters squeezing them from either side to do the right thing.
Derek:You get a better result if you own it all. Like, we can lock someone in jail and say, you can't steal anymore. That doesn't create a better person. But when a person decides, I'm gonna seek a higher purpose and I'm gonna stop this compulsive behavior, then their agency creates a new person, whereas the person in the jail is just the person that doesn't have access to things to steal. That's terrific, Derek.
Derek:Thank you very much. So I think I think there's go ahead, Reid. I was just gonna say you've opened up a whole can of worms for me that will fill other podcasts, I'm sure. We're just about out of time here. And, Derek, where can they find you?
Derek:Where can you be reached? I can be found on the web at derek hudson dot c a. That's d e r e k h e d s o n dot c a. Thank you, Derek, for your time, and we appreciate all our listeners. We hope that you'll come back for our next podcast.
Derek:And until then, consider your quest.