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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00)
Welcome back.
Taina (00:01)
Welcome, welcome back. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:03)
To our regularly scheduled programming.
Taina (00:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:07)
Yeah, it's
been a minute. We've had our Everything Is Political series going for like two weeks or two months, I mean, now. And so
Taina (00:13)
Much love.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:14)
yeah, which is was lovely. We love the series and we love the spaciousness that it gave us for the summer. But now we're back to our weekly recording schedule, and here we are. And we do kind
Taina (00:25)
We're here. We're here. match too. Are you wearing black and white?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:28)
of it's black and white themed today. we were gonna talk about what's I sent it to you, which is honestly kind of surprising because I'm surprised you didn't send it to me.
I don't know if you had seen it yet, but the preview. Okay, of course
Taina (00:37)
I had seen it.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:38)
you had. I mean, there's no way I know something smuddy before you do. But we were gonna talk about Wicker, the menu movie that has at least threads a buzz, because it is about a woman who gets railed by a man made of wicker. And
Taina (00:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:54)
it's based on a short story from a long time ago,
Taina (00:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:57)
that had already, I guess, been previously turned into a stage production, which is very interesting, twice.
Taina (01:01)
that's interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02)
I know, right? They have like a like both the stage productions I saw, it's like this like a literal, like not a human playing the wicker man. It's like a almost like a scarecrow. And then the whole thing. so it's been it was from like 2008, nine, something like that. Then it's been turned into a musical on West End, I think two different times, most recently, maybe
Taina (01:20)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:20)
twenty twenty, and now they're making it into a movie with Olivia Coleman. And I'm it's bizarre. And
Cool and interesting. And I was very curious when I saw the preview because I'm like, if anyone loves smuddy stuff, it's you. So I want to hear what your thoughts are.
Taina (01:33)
Yeah, I saw the trailer last week
Becky Mollenkamp (01:37)
Mm-hmm.
Taina (01:38)
and I was like... Just the most unhinged thing I've ever seen. But it looked, it looks delightful first of all. It looks like one of those like almost like a dark comedy kind of vibe to it. And it's all over Bookstagram and Book Talk because all the like...
girlies and people who read like monster romance and creature romance and all the supernatural stuff like they're just like going feral for it and honestly I can't blame them first of all it's Alexander Skarsgard so you know who's underneath the suit so so it it feels like just watching Alexander Skarsgard in Skarsgard in a wicker suit which is is basically what it is
I'm assuming anyway that's how they produced it. he was in True Blood. was, I mean, he's one of the many scars guards that are out there, you know, in the cinema world. Yeah, I'm interested to see it. I don't know that I'll see it in theaters. Like I'm very particular about how much money I spend on entertainment. And so like if it's a movie I'm going to watch in the theater, then it has to, like it has to...
warrant a theater experience in terms
Becky Mollenkamp (02:46)
It might.
Taina (02:47)
of the level of the screen, the sound, like spending money on compression.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:50)
I was gonna say because the I feel like it
could be based on just the reaction to the trailer, I feel like the theater experience could be very much an experience. I feel like it's gonna be full of women and maybe gay men, but probably mostly women, who are just going to be howling and cackling. And I just I can only imagine the reaction because if it's anything like the reaction I'm seeing online to the trailer, I just think it could potentially be a rip-roaring good time in the theater of people just dying with
as he appears and all of it.
Taina (03:20)
Yeah, I mean, it's first of all, it's got a great lineup of actors, right? And it's Olivia Colman, Alexander Skarsgard,
Becky Mollenkamp (03:24)
Yeah. I love it.
Taina (03:26)
Peter Dinklage, just really phenomenal actors who are so good at their craft and are used to playing interesting roles. Like all three of them have had, I think in their like resume of of cinema, just really interesting roles that they've played and that they're known for. And so
so just a lot of range within those three alone. I haven't read the short story, but they, definitely have, book, bookstagram girlies that I'm online friends with that were in a discord server together who, who have already read the short story just to kind of get a better idea of what it is. And I mean, and obviously I think it.
the moral of the story, it's a parable, obviously, right? And so there's a deeper meaning to it than just like, this woman is getting railed by a wicker. So much so that the connection is breaking.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:11)
I wanna get to that in a minute, but yeah. Let's stick on the railed part first.
Taina (04:17)
That's the fun part. That's the fun part to talk about. So yeah, so there's more to it than just that. it does look very delightful. What was your first impression of it?
Becky Mollenkamp (04:29)
I saw somebody had posted the preview and I watched the whole preview. And my reaction was probably like a lot of people, where I was like, Olivia Coleman, because I knew nothing of the short story. And I really knew nothing about what I was getting into, other than I just sort of saw there was this preview. So I'm like, let me click play and watch this. And I thought, I love Olivia Coleman. So that was my first thought. I Olivia Coleman. What's this? I love I that should be interesting. And then like the little people, all the tittering as she's walking through town. And then I see Peter Dinklage and I'm like, he's
Peter Dean Clitch, this is this is great. It's looking like a great cast. And then all of a sudden I see him. I could tell it was like about her being sort of this, you know, in and the time it set it. It's set very far in the or the whatever, I guess Elizabethan, let's say, kind of times. I don't know exactly what time it was. but you know, at a time where a woman of her age was obviously like put out to pasture, right? And so it's like you can see all the, she'll never find anyone, this poor lonely old woman, whatever. And her being sort of sick of it and going to this like
Warlock. I know, it's not a witch. Whatever the male isn't it a warlock? he's a basket maker, but I thought he had some sort of But how does he actually
Taina (05:26)
He's a basket maker. Yeah, I think that's what it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:31)
come to Okay, I guess I have to see the whole thing figure out how he comes to life because I mean he's not human, but he comes to life well enough to take care of her. So he's not just a a immovable basket man. He's a like living basket man. Anyway, so the guy makes her man. And so then I'm like, well this is strange. Okay, so I guess it's got a little bit of
Fantasy, and you know I don't love fantasy, so I'm kind of then I'm starting to get a little turned off. I'm like, and then I see that she's like getting plowed by Mr. Basket Man. And I'm like, well, now this is interesting. And it started becoming very
Taina (05:59)
How does that work?
Becky Mollenkamp (06:01)
it became very humorous. I did think splinters. Obviously, I think most of us probably would. but I was like, okay, I
Taina (06:07)
And that's it ended.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:08)
could see it's meant to be funny. And I, as a woman of a certain age myself, I was like,
intrigued because I do like what I feel like there is some social commentary there around women of a certain age and all of that and also our vibrancy and desires and passion and and also reaction from society and all that. So I was surprised that I was sort of interested in seeing this movie that seems at first seemed kind of quaint and delightful delightful based just on the cast and all of that. And then turned into something completely different than I thought and looked hilarious.
Taina (06:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:41)
and what's really kept me most excited is just I mean, the the thread's commentary is like next level good. The jokes are never ending and so wonderful. And
Taina (06:51)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:52)
and not in a mean way of like, this looks so dumb, like panning it kind of way, but in like in just the like it you it feels like that's everyone's like excited and and they're making jokes, but in a way that feels like and you know I'm totally gonna see it kind of feeling that
Taina (07:07)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:08)
I don't know, I really love the community it's building around it.
Taina (07:10)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. There's no shortage of jokes, jokes about the premise, not about the movie, right? So I've seen a lot of like, whisker baskets are on clearance at like home goods or something and people are like posting pictures like looking for my next husband or like, or like fashion in like,
Becky Mollenkamp (07:28)
Well here's a here's a good one. It says
it would be a huge missed opportunity if IKEA doesn't release a spring 27 indoor outdoor wicker chair called the ScarsGard with, you know, the little thing over
Taina (07:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:41)
the A on Scarskard. I'm like, that was so great. I mean, there are some really great like if you just wanna have a fun time, go search wicker on threads right now because it's just so
Taina (07:50)
Yeah, yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp (07:51)
good.
Taina (07:52)
yeah, you would just laugh for hours for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:54)
Yes. And I'm
imagining I so of course, you know, this is just me as like somebody who my you know, we've talked about it. My romance reading is tame and it's more like love stories, rom-coms, but not like getting railed. So this is like outside of my normal comfort zone. I think maybe because it's so ludicrous and silly, plus
Taina (08:15)
Well.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:16)
like this extra layer of commentary, I'm kind of excited, but I'm curious if somebody I'm assuming this is like
not so outlandish or out there for the the spaces you hang out in with the like 'cause I mean yeah.
Taina (08:26)
No, it's not. It's not.
like a lot of us probably could have predicted this at some point or another. Because there's like creature, first of all, it's this magical realism, right, that's present in this movie. And so it's kind of taking this concept of like a fairy tale and making it even more supernatural than fairy tales already are, right? Because usually in fairy tales, you have a fairy godmother or you have some kind of magical element. And so it's taking this magical element and
using it in a way that we don't really see, which feels fresh and creative and fun. And I think that's why a lot of people who aren't even into, you know, smutty romance or whatever you want to call it, are excited about it because it does feel fresh and it feels original, even though it's based on a short story that was written a long time ago. So there's that. But then also, I think the
One of the reasons why no one is in the book reader, romance, romantic, dark romance, shadow daddy, whatever you want to call it. There's so many terms. There's so much language, right? And some of it is condescending and some of it isn't. But the reason why people in those communities are so excited about it and aren't even batting an eye is because there's a reason.
people turn to those romances, those types of romance stories in the first place and it's because men in general, like, they kind of continue to fall short. And so, and not that there aren't men that are trying, there obviously are.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:52)
my God, you don't don't speak to the not all men people.
Taina (09:56)
I don't want to call it that, right? But I do want to be like honest about like my perspective
Becky Mollenkamp (10:00)
Yeah, there are.
Taina (10:01)
on the issue. so,
It is all men until it's not all men, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp (10:07)
Exactly.
Taina (10:08)
They continue to fall short. They continue to fall short. And that is generally the premise of the entire story, how this supernatural, weird-ass, wicker husband that this woman marries and has an incredibly erotic relationship with.
gets the other woman in the village so like hyped up because they're like, whoa, your man who isn't even real treats you like that. And that's so far from how my husband treats me that it becomes an issue for the women in the village because there's jealousy. And then it becomes an issue for the men because they're like, well, you're rallying our wives up. And now like they're expecting things of us that.
we don't want to commit to and we don't want to do. Like there's literally a scene in the trailer, I don't know if you caught this, where there's a wedding between a young couple and he's literally putting like a chain around her neck, like a collar, a metal collar around her neck. And after the wedding or after they get married, she's in the village and she's showing it off and she's like, it belonged to my mother, right? And so like they're literally taking this idea of how marriage to...
Married in a patriarchal society to a man shackles a woman to him. Like it's very, very literal. Like it's not just this metaphorical idea. Like she's literally wearing this metal collar. And so, and then you have Olivia Coleman's character who marries this guy. She has no metal collar on. She's still free to work because in the beginning of the trailer, she comes through town to sell her fish. She's a fisher woman.
She has her own job. She's single. She is middle-aged by all appearances, which is unheard of for that time. And so she continues to live in this sense of independence while being adored and railed within an inch of her life, breaking the bed multiple times.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:02)
They break the bed. Literally break the bed. He puts her through the mattress.
Taina (12:07)
Yeah, like she has this fake man who's like so completely devoted to her while she's still able to live the life that she wants. And that becomes a problem for the people in the village.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:17)
Well, and this so now we're getting to where the reason I wanted to talk with you about this or why I sent this as a possible topic for today was one, because I just think it's fun. So there's the fun part of it, and I love all of that. And I love the way that like they are getting endless amounts of free publicity just because it's outlandish, because it's wild, because it's fun, because it's different, all those things you're saying, like they're getting all this publicity just from that. And that's huge. I mean, you can't buy what they're getting right now. So that's interesting in and of itself. But the bigger piece around
Because it got me thinking about all this stuff around smut, around romance and how romance is a category of books and e even more sort of like smutty quote unquote romance. they're reach it's reaching like a a level of interest and and financial investment from people that I don't know that it's ever seen, even in the Harley Quinn days. And and I think in those days it was treated differently than it is now too. And I just think the evolution of of
This type of content around like romance and and quote unquote women's literature or whatever. The, you know, the that has previously, I like you said, I think a bit derogatory, like there's been some really condescending ways people have looked at
Taina (13:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:28)
it. But I think some of that is changing. I mean, I think there's obviously still some of that. But I think just the way it's women are more unabashedly purchasing these books, sharing these books, talking about these books.
Like just so publicly. I mean, there are women creating bookstores that only sell this kind of book, right? Yeah.
Taina (13:43)
Yeah, one just opened up like less than a mile from us. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:47)
I mean, it's it's a it's a whole thing that has just been gaining momentum, momentum. And I thought it'd be interesting to talk about why. Like, what is it about that? What is it about those kinds of books and why now? And and I've 'cause I feel like this movie sort of speaks to a bit of that too. I think it's coming out at a perfect sort of time where
It will be received in a way that I don't think it would have been received the same five, ten years ago. And I
Taina (14:11)
No. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:13)
and I think the why of that is interesting. And so I I mean, one, I think it speaks to where we are, both in progress, but also threat to progress. And I'm curious, like kind of as you were
as you're thinking about it and and what it might be saying about us as a society. not just the movie, but you know, the movie and just kind of romance and specifically even like the smuddier the romance. And to your point, women these books being written through a women's perspective, a woman's viewpoint
Taina (14:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:45)
where it is not just about like
Olivia Coleman finding some s you know, hot fifty year old man who she gets to go through the traditional experience of love with, but that it's it's challenging those norms.
Taina (14:58)
Yeah, think it's, mean, and I don't know what the statistics are, what the numbers are, but I think it's also really interesting that this explosion of like, quote unquote, smutty romance is happening while there's also like, what appears to be like an explosion of like conservatism, not just in the US, but across the world. And it's like, how do those things go hand in hand?
right, because even those women are unsatisfied in their marriages as much as they might tout these like trad wife principles and these family values and how important it is to like submit to your husband or whatever. Like I literally saw something on Instagram the other day. I didn't do a whole lot of research on it. So I'm not going to like, I don't want to too much
Becky Mollenkamp (15:39)
Yeah.
Taina (15:40)
time talking about it, but like where this like conservative, tried wife influencer was like selling this like
coaching program on how women can better submit to their husbands. And then she went somewhere, she was on a stage somewhere and said that women shouldn't have the right to vote. Like,
Becky Mollenkamp (15:56)
Mm.
Taina (15:56)
and it's like, you are taking women's money to teach them how to do these things to like indoctrinate them into these beliefs. Meanwhile, you're fucking working. Like what you're doing is work.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:08)
Right, exactly. I just
as a quick aside, one of the biggest books of the summer was yesteryear. I don't know if you read it or not. Doesn't matter. Lots of people have a lot of thoughts on it, and we aren't gonna this is not specifically about this. However, it is coming at the same time. It's a book, it's fiction, and it's a following this woman who is doing the trad wife content.
It it's a very interesting book. It's an unreliable narrator. A lot of people, I think, just don't like unreliable narrators, which might be part of the reason people have some problems with it. I think there's also some problems because of the very white lens that goes through all of it. But it's interesting that that book was a also a huge phenomenon this summer where it's a book sort of pushing back in a way and kind of shining the light on the hypocrisy of the Tradwife
Taina (16:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:54)
movement for that very same reason you're talking about. So I just think it's interesting that so many of the things that are kind of
Rising in the zeitgeist are what you're saying. Like they're they're pushing these against some of the things that are also, as the conservatism is rising, there's these responses to it, and they're not seen as al alternative or outsider or like they're they're mainstream.
Taina (17:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it takes a lot of mental gymnastics, right, for someone to be in that space, to be like, this is how a woman should act, but then also still kind of doing their own thing. And so, like, that's not a coincidence. Like, those things are interrelated. And so no matter how much they...
might say they are happy with their lives or this is God's plan for their marriage or their life or their children or their family or whatever the fuck they want to call it. They obviously aren't because these books offer an escape. On an individual level, the level of escape and the level of fantasy that you buy into is personal. I read a lot of fantasy fanfic.
I read a lot of Smutty fanfic, I read a lot of dark horror fanfic, and so it's a fantasy. Reading is always an escape. It's always an opportunity to enter
Becky Mollenkamp (18:10)
Yeah.
Taina (18:11)
into another world. How deep you get into it and how much those lines blur for you, right, is an individual personal thing. But the fact that it's so popular now, those things that means something, that's not like, that doesn't exist within a vacuum. It's like, people just love to read that.
No, that's not a neutral fact. Like it means something. so, and I know,
Becky Mollenkamp (18:34)
It's not happenstance.
Taina (18:35)
right, right. And like, know like, Nora Smith, like she, I don't know if you know who she is, but like, she
Becky Mollenkamp (18:43)
Mm-mm.
Taina (18:44)
has been like creating like trad wife type content for years now. And she was the model and she's married to a model and he's like Mormon or something. live out.
Utah or Arizona or somewhere. And she creates all this content about like taking three days to make cinnamon toast crunch for her kids from scratch. And it's like, okay, but who's filming you? Like you're getting money. Like she just went on the call her daddy podcast to talk about how
Becky Mollenkamp (19:11)
Mm-hmm.
Taina (19:11)
like, I'm not a trad wife. I never said I was a trad wife. whatever it was. so, and it's like, okay, but you.
that it was okay for you to let yourself be labeled as a tried wife when it was in the context of a Trump campaign for presidency, conservative family values. But now you want to come and assert you're independent to talk about how you've been working this whole time. It's a bait and switch for women. It's selling everyday women something that they will never really be able to attain to because
The regular, degular mom down the street who has three kids, she can't take fucking three days to make Cinnamon Toast Crunch from scratch for her kids because
Becky Mollenkamp (19:50)
Ha ha ha.
Taina (19:51)
it's healthier and because she loves them. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's so much
Becky Mollenkamp (19:55)
Yeah.
Taina (19:55)
bullshit. And so this idea that like women are buying into these stories of like perfect men, of men who are not necessarily human, but like perfectly and 100 % devoted.
partners who are 100 % devoted, like that's not a coincidence. Like that's happening
Becky Mollenkamp (20:15)
Yeah.
Taina (20:15)
for a reason.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:16)
Well, and I said just for some statistics because I looked them up really quickly, the last numbers that I could find were that the revenue from May of twenty-two to May of twenty twenty-three, it romance as a category had fifty-two percent growth in that period. And that's now several years old. And it I don't think it's gotten any smaller. It's probably bigger. And it's now one point four four billion in revenue a year, this category of books. And it is
by far the one of all category books that has the biggest increases. And I think some of it is
Taina (20:50)
And it has historically, I think.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:52)
what's that?
Taina (20:53)
And it has historically always had the biggest increases in one of the most popular genres.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:58)
for sure, but I think it's it's the growth that it's been experiencing right now is like it's been rapid and high. And I think so I think part of it is also just most romance. There not all, because I saw one of the book publishers, their social media person, got in trouble for saying that not all romance books have to have a happy ending. And there was many people who are like, no, that's exactly what they have to have, and it would cause then there's others who think it doesn't. Anyway, that there was drama there.
But on the whole, romance is a category that tends to have a happy ending. And I think when you are living in such uncertain and dire times, I think it's easy to wanna go for a book that is going to have that has that promise of things work out in the end and there's a happy ending versus reading th you know, thrillers or, you know.
horror books or things like that. So that piece makes sense. But I also think there the other piece that's really interesting is like you were saying, it's this backlash or reaction to
Patriarchy and you know, racism and all the things we're living through, capitalism, where it's like, you know, the stripping away of rights while at the same time heated rivalry, you know, when we're having people questioning whether marriage equality needs to exist, and then you've got heated rivalry being like so huge and not clearly the levels of success it has has to go beyond just.
The people who you would associate as being people who would be interested in that content. Like it's not just the LGBTQ community, it's not just the crazy liberals or whatever, right? Like it's it's reaching across to people because I think everyone, like s so many people, we're living in a time when 30% of people are making decisions for s for the other 70% who are vehemently opposed to those decisions. And I feel like this kind of content is like we're all just grasping for something that shows us some hope.
that our stories do matter and that that there is still like a world that could exist where our rights aren't all gone and where men aren't all pieces of shit and you know, that kind of thing, right?
Taina (22:59)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm curious. I probably will read the short story at some point.
and I think it's interesting too that it like, just going back to like this fairy tale aesthetic of the movie, because when the trailer first started and she was walking through the village, I felt like I was kind of watching an older version of Beauty and the Beast.
Cause like, it just reminded me of the opening scene of Belle, like walking through the village and the townspeople
Becky Mollenkamp (23:27)
Mm.
Taina (23:27)
kind of like friendly, but also kind condescending to her. Cause it's like, Belle, she's so strange. Like she always has her nose stuck in a book and she's always reading and women shouldn't be reading, you know, like it puts ideas in their heads and like, you know, that whole opening sequence where, where she, you know, the townspeople are like singing and.
She's going through and getting food and supplies and stuff. And so it reminded me of that. so this idea that fairy tales in general have always served as parables as a way to share a lesson to teach rather than to teach in a way that feels entertaining. But the entertainment part of it is what sucks you in. It's the part that grabs your attention.
And so, and I think.
I feel that way about almost everything that is meant to entertain in this world, that
Becky Mollenkamp (24:25)
Hm.
Taina (24:26)
there's a lesson to be learned from the things that we consider entertainment. And whether or not that lesson or that parable is something that is values aligned is something like each individual person has to decide for themselves. But like when I see trailers for like military movies, I feel like this is propaganda.
The reason it feels like propaganda to me is because it feels pro-nationalist, right? Which is different from patriotism. That's a different, a completely different ideology from patriotism. There might be some overlap, but it's not the same thing. And for people who don't know this, know this, like in Hollywood, if you're going to make a movie about the military, the military has to sign off on it. Like they have a contract.
They have contracts. have to have someone from, I think the DOJ look over it and...
make notes on the script, right? And in exchange, Hollywood gets to use actual military equipment. Like that's the deal that they have. And so that's why I'm like, when I watch trailers from military movies, even some superhero movies, I'm just like, this is propaganda because the military has an invested interest. They've literally put their hands in the making and producing of this piece of entertainment. And so when I,
When I watch more Marvel movies, whenever that happens, I'm like, this is not a lesson for me right now. Like, shut that part. I actively shut that part of, have to shut that part of my brain off because I know that what I am being shown is not an accurate depiction. Well, one, it's a first of all, a fucking movie. Like, it's never gonna be really accurate, but also like there's an intent behind it that's beyond just.
pure entertainment. And I don't think, I don't think some people look at entertainment that way. And that's, it's a lot of human literacy. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:14)
No, they definitely don't. I mean, that's media literacy, which which we've
talked about it a million times, and media liter literacy is not just media in the sense of the press, the f you know, free press that we think of when we think about like the First Amendment. Media means all forms of media that you consume, which includes art, which includes, you know, books and
Taina (26:31)
media. books! it includes books!
Becky Mollenkamp (26:36)
right, movies, all of it. Ads, you need media literacy. We need media literacy to consume anything because
Taina (26:42)
social media
also.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:43)
Yeah, yeah. Because th th the what media literacy teaches you is exactly what you're saying, which is, well, one, to make a conscious choice about am I going to watch this through a critical lens, or am I allowing myself to shut that off a bit so that I can just have this as pure escapism, whatever. And that's
Taina (27:01)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:02)
okay as long as you're making a conscious decision. I think most people are watching it through that without making that a conscious choice. They're just doing
Taina (27:07)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:08)
it passively. And then what happens when you do that is you're not doing the part that is
What was the artist trying to communicate? What other forces were at play here? What is this reflecting or
Taina (27:17)
Who paid for this?
Becky Mollenkamp (27:18)
not, right? Who paid for it? What is it reflecting or not showing me about society? What intentional choices were made about whose stories are told, whose aren't? All of that is stuff that we should be doing with everything we're consuming, unless we are consciously saying, like you said, I know this Marvel movie. I could ask myself all those questions, and it will be a different experience of viewing than if I say in this instant,
And since I'm gonna watch this shutting that off, but knowing those things are at play here, so I'm not taking it at face value. I'm just
Taina (27:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:45)
allowing myself to say this is in entertainment, but I'm also then not gonna buy into some of the stuff that they're clearly trying to get me to buy into. But we don't do that. And I think reading is important because it's the same thing you're saying, like art, whether whatever you may or may not think about what you call art individually as a person, right? Some people think it has to be
something super elevated or whatever. But the truth is anything that's created is art, right? Even
Taina (28:10)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:11)
if it's a, like you said, a social media post. That is a form of art. It is a creation. And all creation is through an artist's voice and and perceptions and experience. And there's always an intentionality behind it. And it's important for us to think about what is that intentionality. And then also to look
Collectively about like what does the art of the moment, what is it saying, what is it responding to? Why is this happening? Which is what, you know, this conversation around Wicker, and I'm just I'm always interested. I find it interesting to watch what are the things that start to become more resonant, become that take a hold that get popular attention in times of joy, in times of like
Taina (28:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:53)
prosperity, or in our case, you know, right now, times of
Of uncertainty, times of challenge, times of scarcity. What are the stories that do get told and what do people respond to? And I think it's very interesting to me to see this level of response to something like Wicker really says, I think a lot, going back to what you said at the beginning, about how women are feeling about our participation in society, our our
how much we're wanted in society, how we are cared for or not cared for, what we're willing to tolerate and growing unwilling to tolerate. And I think that's very interesting to notice.
Taina (29:33)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, like you said, art is, I think art is both like a reflection of the context that we're in, right? Like that our current times, our current events, like you said. And I also think like art can be like the catalyst for future art, right? For future changes, for what the future could potentially look like, right?
because it should inspire conversations, right? The subject matter of those conversations can vary, how it's talked about can vary, but like, it should walk away, or you should walk away like asking questions, right? Like, what was that about? Like, what did that mean? Like, why did they make that choice? Like, what does that represent? Why that actor and not this actor? Why that color and not this color, right? And so,
Being able to engage with different forms of art in that way, I think is such a necessary skill that, as you mentioned, when people look at artistic endeavors as just entertainment, they're not engaging in that skill. They're just like, I'm just here. My eyes are on it, but my brain is off.
that that really that actually really saddens me because like for multiple reasons obviously like the critical the lack of critical thinking is like a sad commentary on the state of our world but also just like engaging with various forms of art is such a place of curiosity and like people who don't actively who
Aren't actively curious about the world around them. Like, I actually feel quite sorry for them. Like, I don't, I can't wrap my head around the idea that like people aren't, that there are people out there who just aren't curious about things.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:21)
Well, I would propose to you, and I think you'll agree, Taina, I have a feeling, is the reason you can't fathom that is because you don't hold as many privileged identities as I think many of the people who live that way hold. I think the more privileged identities you hold, the easier it is for you to not have to be curious. And not only to not have to be, but to be conditioned to not be curious, right?
Taina (31:48)
You have to
just accept it as a status quo.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:50)
Yeah, because your job in our system is to uphold the systems. And if you start to get curious about why, why these systems exist, why they make sense, which by the way they don't. So if you start to get too curious, it all starts to unravel. And so you become that's what the schooling our schooling is doing. That's that indoctrination system is challenging you to not be curious. Why you're not allowed to question authority in school, why you're not allowed to push back on.
What is presented to you in the curriculum and ask why and who says and where does this come from. And that's not what I think, or that's not what I've been told, right? You are challenged to really believe things are very black and white. It is as that as it says in the curriculum,
Taina (32:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:32)
I am the authority. You're not here to question. You're here only to regurgitate and to learn to be a quote unquote good citizen, which means learning how to not be curious, right? Learning
Taina (32:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:42)
how to not challenge. And I think the more that you are
outside of or have less of those privileged identities that are so protected inside of that system, the more you naturally become curious because it's hard not to, I would think. If you are a black person sitting through, you know, my even today, especially with so many of the changes and pushbacks that are happening, if you're sitting in a history lesson, you know, just going back to what happened in my son's class and hearing, you know, that my teacher had even stepped outside of the curriculum and was using the term slaves and
Slave owners instead of enslavers and enslaved. Like if you're a black child sitting in her classroom, I think you're you're the only one who has that like lived experience to maybe question that, right? To get
Taina (33:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:26)
curious about why. Why is it that I don't hear those terms being used at home, but I'm hearing them here or, you know, whatever it is. Like, I just think that because of the lack of representation, because of your lived experience feeling so different from what's being presented.
I think that you naturally or you are forced into more curiosity than people who have privilege where it's like, well, it's easy for me to accept because that looks like the experience I've had. It's what I've always been told. So okay. You know what I mean? So yeah, I can Yeah. So I'm not surprised that you're curious and and and like frustrated
Taina (33:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, I definitely see that.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:57)
that others aren't.
Taina (33:58)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's definitely a big part of it. I think it is. But I think also like curiosity is just fun to me. Like
Becky Mollenkamp (34:06)
Well yeah.
Taina (34:07)
asking questions and learning, like that is just, that's just fun to me. That's just one of the most interesting experiences.
ever to have as a human being. like, the fact that people just like, I feel like if I couldn't be curious about the world, that would feel like I, it would, it would feel like I had cut a limb off of my body. Like I just don't.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:25)
Mm. Well, you went to a liberal
arts school too, right? For college. And so
Taina (34:29)
I did, but I was already
in my early 30s by then. I had already.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:34)
Well, that's true.
Well, I'm just curious, but I mean, again, one, going back to lived experience, I think that again, I think it like of the Octavia Butlers of the world to show us anything. It's that you there is this in not inherent because it's not born with, but it is a forced upon you. So whatever the opposite of inherent is inherited, need like a necessity to imagine something different, right? Like and so and imagination and curiosity, like they're hand in hand, right? You you can't
Be imagin imaginative if you aren't curious about what's possible. So I think there's that. because I'm thinking for myself, I don't think that I think, I know, don't even think, I know that my liberal arts education, getting out of the traditional, you know, school system and into a liberal arts college changed everything because that was
Taina (35:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:22)
where curiosity was finally introduced, encouraged, right? Especially going pursuing like an arts degree versus maybe what happens in
For folks who are doing more of a science degree, where things again, I think, can can often be seen as more black and white. I don't know, because it wasn't my experience, so I shouldn't speak too much to what that system looks like. But certainly in a liberal arts school where you're pursuing an arts degree, I think that that is like for many people who have never been forced to or needed to or encouraged to be creative, be curious, imagine that's the first time it starts to happen. So I think for me anyway, that expl I it feels like this delayed.
Where I think maybe you got to it earlier. It took me until then to really start to get curious about the world around me, beyond just the sort of simple like beyond my nose of just like, you're in front of me, your life's a little different. Tell me about that. It was more like that was the first time I got to the like deeper questions of the why is it different? Tell me more about like why is it like that? Make it make sense. That didn't
Taina (36:15)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:20)
happen for me until liberal arts school.
Taina (36:22)
Yeah, yeah. Why and what if are like my two favorite questions.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:26)
Mm.
Taina (36:26)
Like why is something the way that it is and what if it were different?
Becky Mollenkamp (36:29)
Mm.
Taina (36:30)
What if we did X instead of Y?
Becky Mollenkamp (36:33)
And I tell you, Taina, that question of what if. The why, I think, is a question. Well, first of all, it just makes me think like as a mom to a younger child. You hear parents all the time, they get so frustrated by why. Because kids love to ask why, right? They love to ask why. And what do we do as parents? Because and this, I don't blame us. This is the conditioning we get, but we are conditioned to shut that down, to get annoyed by that, and to try to.
Answer the why in as black a white a way as we can, right? We want to give you the answer, we're gonna give you the solution. We want to tell you this is the why, so that we're done. And what what if, here I go, what if our responses to kids and those whys were like, I don't know, what do you think? Or what if it is what you're saying, or what if it could be different? What would you want it to be, right? Like, we don't invite that curiosity with those questions. And so I just think that's interesting because I I think I've
I think why a lot, and I think I always did. I think the part I wasn't encouraged to do and didn't do until much later was the what if. And I still find it challenging. I still find
Taina (37:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:33)
it challenging to get to the what if. I'm pretty good at the why. I I love to examine that why and I want answers, but I'm still challenged by what if. I'm challenged by what's possible. And I
Taina (37:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:43)
think it's I just think in those formative years as and I really don't know what else I can blame it on because I have parents who were
educated, who were liberal arts educated, who, you know, did their best to sort of be progressive and and all of that. And still, my experience, I really feel like I was really stunted on the what ifs. And I don't think I'm naturally like I do think there's some nature and nurture, right? Because my brother just naturally was somebody who was more the like color outside the lines and the what if, and I wasn't. But I also think there's some degree of
the good girl conditioning and other things that came into play that reinforced all of that. So it's really
Taina (38:18)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:22)
interesting to hear you say the what if because I'm like, I love that too. And I'm still so challenged by
Taina (38:26)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's still challenging for me too. Like I think as I've gotten older, there are a lot of things that I'm just like, well, you know, I just don't feel like it. and then I have to like...
Becky Mollenkamp (38:37)
Yeah, but you can still think
the what if, right? Like I I I have struggled
Taina (38:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:41)
to even fill in the what if. I'm it's not even
Taina (38:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:43)
like what if, but I don't feel like doing it. It's like I don't know what if. I only know that I'm mad and I know the why, which
Taina (38:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:50)
is where younger feminists have helped me when they're asking questions like, okay, I don't want to hear that you don't want this world. I get it, but what do you want? And that's where I've always been like, ooh, that's so hard.
Taina (38:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
It's hard because it's a blank slate, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (39:01)
Yeah.
Taina (39:02)
Like, where do you even start?
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04)
But I meet people all the time who are really good at that. I'm getting better as I've had my world expanded, you know.
Taina (39:10)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:10)
But yeah, I still find it really challenging. And I hate that that's what our schooling does to us. Because I really do
Taina (39:14)
down.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:15)
blame a lot of that on just being somebody raised in a red state in the Midwest and limited exposure to.
Taina (39:21)
We're trying to tackle it, not to ask that.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:23)
Yeah. And then the conditioning that just continued to reinforce it. Because I can tell you, my what if would have never been, well, let's just make a man out of wicker.
Never.
Taina (39:30)
But what if we did? What if we did? What happens then? Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:32)
Well now I'm excited to find out what happens if we do. I can't wait like
I'm gonna see this movie, which is sort of wild to me that I'm like, yeah, I'm fully invested now. I wanna see it 'cause it's not something
Taina (39:41)
I cannot wait
to hear your reaction. I need like immediate voice note after.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:47)
I'll just have to live tweet it as we used to whatever they call it now. Live thread it
as I watch it. 'Cause I like you I probably won't see it at the theater. Although I do think it could be a really fun girls' night out at the theater and I think
Taina (39:58)
Yeah, I could.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:58)
they're and I think everybody should come with like their Longa burger basks baskets with a little pigment or something. Like I think it could be fun. but
Taina (40:04)
Yeah, yeah. It'd be a fun like
movie, like group outing and then like discussion after, you
Becky Mollenkamp (40:11)
Yeah.
Taina (40:11)
know.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:12)
my god. Over wine for sure.
Taina (40:13)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:14)
Yeah. And also for anyone wondering, apparently the well not apparently I've seen it, the European trailer, not the American trailer, sh as I've seen people say, so I'm not this is not my l original thought, but the European trailer shows his Longa Burger and the American does not.
Taina (40:29)
Hi.
Somebody shared it with me in one of the groups I'm in. And I saw it. I saw the trailer, but I was like, I can't tell what's a schlong and what's an arm or a leg or whatever.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:41)
You have to well well
first of all, Taina, if you can't tell whether it's a schlong or an arm or a leg, that
Taina (40:47)
It's all Wipper!
Becky Mollenkamp (40:49)
well that says that's saying something pretty. I think that might be part of the reason women are like, yes, please. But secondly,
Taina (40:56)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (40:57)
I did have to like really freeze frame it and zoom in like I'm pinching in to see. but you know I did. Because I was curious. but yeah, I'm ex it
Taina (41:06)
and I am not helping you with that at all.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:08)
Yeah. It doesn't come out till October, which is wild that we're
Taina (41:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:12)
already like people are so much engaged in this in early August and doesn't come out for two months. You just like I said, you can't buy that kind of publicity. So they're doing something right.
Taina (41:20)
You really can't,
you really can't. I am excited to see what everyone wears, but particularly what Alexander Skarsgard wears at the premiere
Becky Mollenkamp (41:28)
Yeah, he's a fashion guy.
Taina (41:29)
because he is known to like just kind like, he's a weird guy. Like he's just, like that's just me.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:34)
Yeah. Yeah, they're, you know,
his wait, I don't even want to get into that. Yes, I wouldn't call him I think he's a very interesting guy. He seems like a very very modern man who's at minimum in touch with his feminine feminine side and I love that
Taina (41:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:48)
about him. you know, whatever. Maybe he's got skeletons in his closet that he's a real jerk, but what I've seen so far, he seems like
Taina (41:53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:54)
again.
every man until no man. So I I'm not one who will ever go out on a limb to defend any man. I'd be like, if you tell me he was a horrible person, I'd be like, okay, totally believe it. Sure. But but and
Taina (42:04)
Yeah, it's of a thing at some point.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:06)
Yeah, and I love Olivia Coleman. So I'm very excited about her in this too. I am curious. I it it's always interesting with these kinds of movies. First of all it's British, right? Like most of the actors anyway seem to be largely British or European. which t often
Those kinds of movies tend to be pretty white to begin with. Some of that
Taina (42:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:25)
is demographic makeup, some of that's historical issues as well. you know, and this is a a period piece. But the preview did look very white. And I don't know yet like whether that what that means for how I will feel about it or how others will feel about it. So that'll be interesting. But certainly, if not at the level of white supremacy issues, there definitely seems to be some good commentary that should come out of it around.
Patriarchy issues. So be interesting to see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well we'll report
Taina (42:50)
Yeah, Gender in class for sure. Yeah. And sex.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:57)
back in October. After
Taina (42:59)
I guess we will.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:00)
yeah, after we both have seen it, we could have a conversation about you know, this is the problem though I would say about having this much hype two months early. Is it's gonna be hard for peop for it to deliver on what people are starting to seemingly want it to be. Yeah, but we will see. All
Taina (43:13)
We'll see. We'll see.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:16)
right, it was fun to get back and have conversation with you again.
Taina (43:18)
Yeah,
first conversation back and starting
Becky Mollenkamp (43:21)
I know.
Taina (43:21)
it off with a bang.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:23)
Ha!
Well played, my friend. Perfect place
Taina (43:25)
I
Becky Mollenkamp (43:26)
to end.