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What makes a family engagement initiative become part of everyday practice instead of one more thing for schools and families to manage?
Dr. Elisabeth O’Bryon of Family Engagement Lab and Carolin Purser of the Center for Literacy and Learning (CLL) explore what it takes to make change stick. They discuss why resources need routines, how family support differs across subjects like literacy and math, and what their partnership is teaching them about connecting family engagement more directly to instruction.
The conversation also explores the challenge of scaling this work across schools and districts without losing the relationships and local ownership that make it effective in the first place.
This series shines a spotlight on the innovative edtech companies working to make a difference for students and educators.
Through conversations with the founders and CEOs, partner organizations, and the educators who are using their products in schools today, listeners hear about solutions relevant to their chronic challenges and opportunity-expanding ideas to go into uncharted directions.
David Cicero: I'm David Cicero, and welcome to the Family Engagement Lab series on EdTech Startup Showcase. Today, we're continuing our implementation series with Family Engagement Lab. Elisabeth O'Bryon is back with us, joined by Carolin Purser from the Center for Literacy and Learning. Schools have no shortage of good ideas, good resources, or new initiatives, and yet we've all seen something launch with a lot of excitement, and six months later, almost nothing has changed.
We've been looking at a pretty simple problem throughout this series. Having a good idea or a good resource doesn't mean it's actually going to change what happens in schools. So today, we're going to dig into what makes changes stick and what happens when you try to take something that works deeply in one place and scale it.
Elisabeth and Carolin, welcome to the show.
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Thanks so much. Thanks, David.
David Cicero: Absolutely. Absolutely. Excited for this conversation. So we're gonna kinda start with this higher level idea of sort of around why good resources aren't enough. So Elisabeth, I'm gonna start with you. Schools and families have access to more resources than ever, more than we know what to do with.
Why doesn't putting good resources in people's hands necessarily change practice?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, it's a great question. I think what's really key here is that resources don't often come with routines. So a resource can just be something you hand over while practice is something that people do regularly together over time.
And so without a routine around it, even a great resource can sort of sit unused. So you really need to be thinking about, like, how do I make this feel relevant, really embedded into what folks are already doing and not one more thing.
David Cicero: Right, right. So it's like you've given this to me, now, now what do I do with it?
Yeah. So we're, we're seeing that quite a bit of, of guidance is, is needed when handing over that resource. Now does that guidance... I would suspect it looks different when you hand over something to schools versus families. What are your thoughts on that, Elisabeth?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, I mean, I think one similarity is that families and teachers are really overloaded already.
And so I think something that's important is thinking about like, okay, families get messages from multiple apps, emails, texts every week. Like one more resource can get lost in that noise for families. And then teachers, you know, they're stretched too, so anything new that's coming to them is gonna be competing with everything else.
So I think like thinking about like what are, what are the day-to-day, what does it look like for teachers and families, and how can you create something that becomes part of what people already do? So embedded in the existing practices for teachers and recommendations for families that can really be carried out within what families, their existing routines that they do.
David Cicero: I mean, I love this idea. I mean, just as on a personal level, right? My son comes home from school and I get emails from the school or the teacher saying, "Hey, your child needs to do this," and I'm thinking, okay, now I have to take time to figure out how to make this happen. Yes. You know, pass, passing along some additional sort of contextual instructions would be fantastic.
But I'm, I'm wondering also, is that really, you know, usually the thing that's missing when something fails to take hold? So when we, when, when a strong resource or initiative fails to take hold, I imagine maybe something like that is missing. What else is usually missing?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, sure. So I think one thing just as you start off, um, is readiness.
So schools can start in really different places. Some have leadership buy-in, but maybe no team ownership, while as others might have a lot of enthusiasm, but no time or structure. So this one-size-fits-all launch can miss where people actually are. So that's one piece is that readiness factor. I think also, you know, active leadership is really important.
You wanna have a principal who protects your time, asks for progress, removes those obstacles. Um, you want ownership inside of the school, so someone has to own the work each day. And you know, when it can depend on an outside partner or a champion for a research init- initiative to work, it often fades once they start to step back.
And again, I think what we were talking about routines, you know, people need a really clear, repeatable way to use a new resource. You know, something that fits into what they're already doing, otherwise it's gonna stay, you know, one more thing on top of that pile.
David Cicero: Yeah, absolutely. It can become overwhelming quickly, especially for, um, folks working in schools that have so many responsibilities, and responsibilities at home for families.
So, so Carolin, this, this next one's for you. You know, from your perspective, how do you help families support learning without overwhelming them?
Carolin Purser: That's a really good question, and one that our organization thinks about a lot. And I think it- the key is to really create resources that address multiple priorities in one go.
Because as a parent myself, I know that one of the challenges is i- if I, if I know what I need to work on with literacy, and I know that math is important, I know that, you know, behavioral expectations are important, but I don't know exactly how to do all three of those things in an afternoon or evening.
You know, going back to the idea of habits, integrated resources become really important, and I think weaving those together is a really important piece of how we support families, um, in not being overwhelmed. But I think the challenge also lies in that how do you truly communicate priorities in a specific discipline or- Specific domain without going deep, right?
Um, we, when Elisabeth and I were talking a, a few weeks ago, we were talking about this idea of how do we choose between going broad or going deep, right? And I think that's one of those, um, challenges that we constantly struggle with, and where we meet the parents. Are we meeting them where they already are?
Are we sending them resources in ways that are truly digestible and incorpor- can be incorporated easily into their lives? Um, so those are all different pieces that we constantly struggle with, but we also find that learning and listening to families has a really important role to play in providing resources that work for them.
David Cicero: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, you mentioned something that's so interesting, because I took another look at some of the questions I, I wanted to ask you both, and I modified one of them 'cause I thought to myself, "Wait a minute," you know, "Where's, you know, there's sending resources and supporting families. Does this change by subject?"
And I was like, I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna ask them that one. So I'm gonna put it to you. You mentioned it in your response there, Carolin, and I, I want you to dig in just a little bit. Does effective family support look different depending by subject, say literacy versus math? 'Cause it certainly, in my home, it does look different for the support, the support I'm providing my ch- my child.
Carolin Purser: Absolutely. I think the underlying concepts are the same, right? We want to support our child. We just want, even showing up and letting them know that learning is an important value in a household goes a long way in supporting our children. So I think that is an accessible point for any parent, regardless of our specific competence in a s- in a discipline.
I can tell you that I'm a political scientist by training, and so on paper, I have a PhD. However, if you asked me five years ago, "How do you teach a child to read?" I had no idea how to teach a child to read, right? How do I support a child in becoming a reader? It, uh, there's the common knowledge that you just read with your child, but there's also more to it.
And so just by virtue of being surrounded by amazing experts in literacy and family engagement, I have had the privilege of picking up all these lessons on how I can incorporate these practices into my child's learning. As a result, I end up leaning more on literacy in my household. I support my child's writing, my oral language development, his decoding on a regular basis.
But if you ask me the same about math, I can tell you I don't feel confident. I don't know exactly how to support my children around those things. And so it's just about So I think there, there are differences, and we do need to acknowledge that. And it's also about giving parents the choice and comfort and saying, "It's okay that you prioritize one over the other temporarily, and these are ways that you can still show up in those other ways."
Um, yeah.
Elisabeth O'Bryon: I think that's so great, Carolin, and really resonates. And I was thinking about too, you know, some of the work that we've done to help teachers share information with their students' families about literacy and math follow some sort of similar strategies across, you know, the different academic subjects.
Um, and so I was thinking to highlight some of those. You know, things like if you're going to give information to a family member about like what you're learning k- in the classroom and how they can help at home, you know, just thinking about like how that information gets shared of like one clear skill, like one simple activity families can do.
Like, you know, Carolin, to your point about math, like you might not be a fraction expert, but, you know, you're folding laundry or cutting an apple or an orange into different pieces. Like providing families those sort of access points to be reinforcing concepts that are happening in the classroom can be really powerful despite, you know, parents maybe being like, "You know, I, I'm not sure how to, how to even start.
What do I do?" Um, and so I think that that's something like helping families see that there are little ways to fit, you know, activities and conversations with their children into routines like mealtime or bedtime, the drive to school. Um, if, if teachers can help create that, that entry point, it can be really powerful for parents regardless of sort of their background in math or literacy.
David Cicero: Love this. I want this. I want I want some- I want... This is really a great idea. I mean, even something as simple as saying, you know, "This is your child's assignment for tonight. Try this specific five-minute activity with them." Not only does that give me a direction that's directly aligned with what they're learning and trying to accomplish in class, but it also like tells me how much time and when to kind of fit that, right?
Like, "Okay, this is your assignment, and I've got this little activity I can do tonight with you, and it's gonna be, you know, five, 10 minutes." And I didn't have to think of it. I don't have to worry if it's really hitting what the teacher needs or what the student needs, right? I, I just really love that.
idea.
Carolin Purser: Sometimes what I notice is that I see homework, but there, there isn't the why or what are we trying to get to in those homework assignments. Or I see my s-child's school, schoolwork, but you can't always make that connection. I think that's where sometimes technology, sometimes, you know, just direct parent communication from teachers and schools can go a long way because synthesizing what are we trying to do here is a question that a lot of families cannot answer, even when schools are providing examples of work regularly.
David Cicero: Yeah, and you know what? I, I, I don't wanna, um, you know, stay and focus on this specific part of the conversation, but I keep seeing value in this, right? So like, I, I just thought of this example where, you know, um, w- I feel like e-e-parents can waste time homework time, right? So I, I'm a math teacher, right? I did my-- My, my degrees are in mathematics and math teaching.
When my son brings home math work, right? Um, I start helping him in a certain way, and then it ends up in an argument or an argument or discussion, negotiation about, "Well, this is not the way they showed us how to do it." "Okay, well then how did they show you how to do it?" "Well, I'm not sure how they showed me how to do it," right?
So it's like- Yeah ... then we spend time wondering, trying to find that alignment with the classroom, and, and that is valuable time. It's valuable time at home. Uh, it's valuable, um, you know, um, time sort of, uh, taken away, uh, that could be spent on something that's, um, much closer to what the teacher's expecting and what the student, um, actually needs to learn.
So I think that there, there's a, you know, a lot to be said for providing some context. I mean, if we can't go so far as to say, "Hey, do these activities specifically," right? That might create a burden on the, on the teacher or on the school. But providing some of that context up front so that when I sit down, my child needs help, you know, I can be pretty sure that, um, the way I'm helping them is maybe close to how the teacher would or at least aligned to, to the goals, um, in the classroom.
Now we've, now we've been focusing in on providing context, and I wanna kinda broaden the, the question now, right? And so we talked about initiatives being launched, and then they disappear, and, um, we're, we're thinking about schools and, and at home. And I'm wondering if there's anything else that separates the ones that- stick from the ones that, that don't stick?
I think we've uncovered that, you know, providing context to families. What, what, what other, um, what other things separate the ones that stick, Elisabeth, from your perspective?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah. I think there are a couple different kind of factors to think about here is, you know, one being, you know, something is built to repeat and not just to launch.
So, you know, like that launch time can get a lot of energy and attention, but, you know, are we thinking about what happens in week six or month four or year two? You know, like, the ones that tend to stick have, like, this simple routine people can come back to and that can persist more over time. Um, I think also just, you know, making sure that ownership is, you know, can shift from the outside to the inside i- is really, really key.
Um, you know, a lot of the work we're doing right now with teachers, you know, we're providing some coaching, but we wanna deliberately step back and then see what can our teacher teams doing on their own. Um, that'll be the real test of whether something keeps going without, you know, a, anyone in from the outside sort of prompting it.
Um, and I think the same thing is talking about, like, it, you know, making sure something doesn't rest on just one person, uh, that it's shared across a team and supported by the leadership. So, you know, if somebody leaves or has a hard month, you know, the whole thing doesn't, you know, leave with them. Um, the last thing I think I'll say too around this is, like, people can see it working.
So, you know, making sure that there are signs that like, "Oh, okay, this is making a difference." You're thinking about sort of those outcomes and tracking them and reflecting on them, and you know, that's what is gonna really, you know, keep excitement and keep teachers going after, you know, sort of that initial piece might fade.
David Cicero: Elisabeth, this one, this one I've got for you, too. Um, when we're thinking about family engagement and instructional planning, I, I, I think that the last time we spoke, we, we talked about connecting those, or at least the desire, um-
Carolin Purser: Yes. Mm-hmm ...
David Cicero: to connect them, right? A- as a way to bring families more into the fold, um, and to create a really co- cohesive learning experience for students.
But they, but they often do operate separately. Mm-hmm. And so when you, when you think about, um, the CLL and Family Engagement Lab partnership, what are you learning about connecting them?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah. I think, you know, you're absolutely right in building onto our prior conversations. They tend to operate really separately where like, you know, instruction is owned by curriculum, teaching and learning, whereas family engagement can be owned by a completely different team.
And so, you know, consequently they're not planning together and, you know, families are, are less likely to get messages that are really tied to learning 'cause those pieces are not really talking to each other. Um, you know, and I think what's really important is that families want this information. I think that that's really, really, really key.
You know, families consistently tell us like, you know, they wanna know what their child is learning and if they're on track and, and ways that they can help at home. Um, and so I think making sure that that information is, is something that teachers and schools are hearing is really, really key. So, you know, families, they wanna be part of their learning and our job is to make sure that that connects to everything else that schools are already working on
David Cicero: And Carolin, what about you?
What are you learning from the CLL Family Engagement Lab partnership about connecting?
Carolin Purser: One of the amazing things that is made possible through this partnership, um, for the Statewide Family Engagement Center work is that we have this unique opportunity to put all the resources and communication necessary to inform not just the administrators, not just the teachers, but also the families about what is going on, why these efforts are important, how we can empower the school to listen to their families better and provide resources that they need, while also empowering families to have the knowledge about what is going on in school so that they can support their child's learning.
And I think sometimes even when schools have prioritized achievement and family engagement, that big why that the administrator or the decision-maker had does not get comprehensively communicated at every level because rightfully, there are so many competing priorities. And by having this partnership with not just the Center for Literacy and Learning and Family Engagement Lab, but also the Louisiana State University, there are so many touchpoints with schools where we're trying to communicate and support teachers and leaders in this process that I think it is a more comprehensive experience than what you typically get.
And I think the key to how that work is deepening family engagement in the school district that we are working most closely with is that there are no shortcuts, right? I think that is, that is one of those hard pills to swallow, that there are no shortcuts, and the depth and richness of those collaborations do matter, and I think that's, um, that's one of the, the most amazing things about this partnership, I would say.
David Cicero: When we think about the Statewide Family Engagement Center network, um, you've experienced statewide reach. What are some of the challenges that have, that have come with it? You, you kinda said this, you know, um, kind of alluded to some of those. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit.
Carolin Purser: Of course. So in different states come to the stage of having a statewide family engagement center at different stages, right?
Uh, stages of readiness. And so in our case, we made a decision to initially engage more broadly and openly with school districts in ways that they needed, and I think that's one of the... That has been a really successful piece of the Louisiana Statewide Family Engagement Center, that we're meeting schools wherever their needs are.
But that also then means that we are not necessarily doing this one intensive program with every school district that we ever encounter, right? And so from an evaluation perspective, when we look at school districts beyond the one school district where we are doing intensive deep work, the other school districts are just making sense of how they can truly think about family engagement as a strategy for student achievement, because not everyone is at that stage.
The challenges, especially in Louisiana, where a lot of school districts around the state are rural school districts, the challenges around family engagement also look different. And so we, we have had opportunities to work closely with specific school districts that say, "Our typical commuting student has to drive thirty minutes or forty minutes to get to school, and their families have busy schedules, and they cannot make it to these evening events."
And so, uh, it's, it's just about framing family engagement as more than events sometimes. We have to communicate how, how do you reach families when they are busy, when they are struggling on, you know, for struggling around transportation or, you know, finding time to do homework with their child or show up for, um, a school event, and also to change the mindset from the school's perspective around what it means when a family member is present or not present at a school event.
So it's been meaningful work, but like I said, we cannot say that our impact has been the same across all school districts, and we struggle to reach every single school district because some school districts do tell us, "Hey, we've got too many things going on. We don't know how we're going to do one more thing," even when we let them know that these amazing high-quality resources come at no cost to them.
So that's very telling, and I applaud the schools for saying, you know, "We have to make some priorities." However, it's unfortunate that family engagement sometimes has to be the thing that goes in that scenario.
David Cicero: Yeah. You know, education is such An interesting thing. Um, there are common themes throughout, and as you were explaining this, or answering, Carolin, I started thinking of personalized learning.
It's almost the same thing, right? We wanna provide every student with what they need specifically through, let's say, individualized or differentiated learning. But then we also have this, um, you know, duty to, to teach the entire class, and so we're constantly trying to balance, you know, what do we teach the whole class, and then how do I meet the needs of each individual student?
I... These, these, these common, these, these problems just have, um, they, they, they, they, they permeate. You know, some of them just copy themselves, but the stakeholders change. It's so interesting to me. And so, E-Elisabeth, I'm gonna, I'm gonna end on, on you here. Growth is, is obviously important here, right? Um, addressing the needs of districts statewide.
But then we look back and we think, "Wait a minute. This local ownership," you know, how we were working with individual schools. You know, we learned so much and, and, and, and this is sort of where it began and, and this is where this work was working, but we need to, to grow. So what are some considerations in, in, in growing without sort of losing the thing that kinda made it work in the, in the first place?
What are some thoughts about how to move forward doing that?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, definitely. So I think, you know, one piece is thinking about, like, scaling the practice, not the program. And so, you know, y-you really need to be thinking about what is that individual context of the school and, and you know, if you can spread a routine in many different ways depending on what that school is like and needs and the conditions there.
So, you know, it's not a fixed patch, package dropped into every school the same way. Um, I also think, you know, growing that capacity inside school is something we've talked about. You know, teachers who have done the work can help train their colleagues, and teams that can explain, you know, not just what they do, but why and how so that the work can spread through people who have those relationships.
Um, also, and this is something, you know, Carolin and I have talked about is, like, how do you help schools learn from each other? You know, how, like, communities of practice where teams can share what's working, you know, those examples from peers can be really, really powerful. Um, and just being honest about readiness.
You know, not every school is gonna be ready at the same time. You know, as Carolin mentioned, is that being transparent about that is helpful and, you know, to meet schools where they are and then go deep where the conditions are there. Um, so you know, you, you, you don't scale the relationships by stretching them thinner.
You really scale them by growing more of them locally within those individual contexts.
David Cicero: Elisabeth, Carolin, thank you so much for coming on and sharing.