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Welcome to The Guri Show, your go-to podcast for retreat leaders, coaches, and transformation seekers who are ready to create thriving businesses while embracing self-healing, wellness, and personal growth. Hosted by Guri Kaur, this show is your space to learn how to design life-changing retreats, confidently sell your offers, and master the mindset shifts needed to create abundance and impact.
Each episode dives deep into actionable strategies, personal insights, and soulful practices that combine business growth with inner transformation. From self-healing techniques and wellness rituals to powerful tools for scaling your coaching programs, we’ll help you align your purpose, your profits, and your peace.
Whether you’re building your first retreat or scaling to six figures and beyond, The Guri Show is your space to dream big, transform yourself, and empower others to do the same.
Tune in, grow your business, heal your soul, and create the legacy you’re destined for. Let’s thrive together!
Gurvinder Kaur (00:01)
Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Guri Show. This one is extra special because this is a guest episode and not just any guest episode. This is the first guest episode of 2025 and of season three.
And we're really going into the how to stuff with this episode. We are talking about sales pages. And the special guest that we have on today is Ken Westgard. I hope I'm pronouncing your surname correctly,
Okay. So Ken and I have this beautiful conversation on this topic.
And after the intro, I'll take you to the conversation directly. I just wanted to give you the intro of what we do, what we discuss in the conversation. Okay, so we discuss all things, sales pages. We delve into the intricacies of creating effective pages, sales pages specifically, not just any pages, sales pages that can work. And Ken talks about his framework.
the convergent triangle and the three pillars included in that framework. So if you are missing out on any of these three pillars, your sales page might not be converting. And one of those pillars is absolutely important. And so he discusses about that pillar. And also he talks about the certain mistakes that coaches and retreat leaders make.
We discuss the significance of features versus benefits, and we discuss the typical debate between long and short sales pages. And we talk about a lot of other stuff. And what I want you to do is I want you to listen to this conversation all through the end, because Ken has an exciting offer for you towards the end. He shares it towards the end, so stay tuned.
Leave us a comment down below of what you think about the podcast and you can also connect with Ken and I'm sure towards the end he shares about his social media. Okay, so I have to stop talking now and I have to take a break and get you guys to the episode. Stay tuned.
Guri (03:41)
Sure, we're gonna have amazing conversation today. Well, first off, feel like you and I go for like forever. You we were supposed to be like, we are connected since, I don't know, 2020. And it was a long, yeah, few years and this podcast, I feel is a long time coming.
Ken Westgaard (03:56)
Yeah, I mean, it's been a few years.
Exactly, yes, I agree.
Guri (04:07)
So I'd to know before we get into the nitty gritty, which is the sales page conversation, like how my audience, is retreat leaders, retreat professionals, and coaches who want to sell their coaching program, who want to sell their retreats, can benefit from creating sales pages that can work. We'd love to hear some of the hacks from you, some of the mistakes that.
people might be already making. But before we get into all of that, I'd love to know what is your why, why you're doing this. I'd also love to learn a little bit about your journey and anything that you want to share with the audience.
Ken Westgaard (04:50)
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's been, it's been a long journey for sure. just, you know, this last year I thought about it and it's like, it's been 10 years pretty much since I started my first business. you know, back then obviously it was having a job, a full-time job and doing this business as well. But it feels like it's been 10 years in the making, you know, it's that overnight success, air quotes, but you know, it
it takes some time to kind of get to where you want to be, especially if you're going to be here for the long run, obviously. But yeah, back in, I think it was 2014, I started with Web & Graphic Design. I quickly evolved to working with some commercial optimization. I've done email marketing. I've done launching. And now we ended up on sales pages, which is, I feel like it's a really specific niche and embodies everything that I've...
Guri (05:40)
You
Ken Westgaard (05:46)
love throughout the years, which is designing things and building websites or pages and combining that with good messaging. Yeah. So, but that's like the really short version obviously, but it has definitely been up and down and you know, there's times when you really want to just quit and give up, but you know, if you just stay on track and keep going, things will work out in the end.
Guri (06:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's not surprising at all because I resonate with that a lot because that's my journey too. You know, I started with experimenting with all of those things that you mentioned and maybe even more. And then eventually I ended up with courses and then now retreats, retreats plus coaching if you, if I put it that the correct way. So I resonate with that a lot.
Ken Westgaard (06:28)
You
Mm-hmm.
Guri (06:41)
So how have been like, how did this sales page happen? And like, are you doing this? Are you like completely going into sales pages or is there anything else also that you're doing?
Ken Westgaard (06:53)
For this, I'm diving really just into sales pages. try to stay, I mean, I could easily do other things I know that I can, but I really want to stay on this path of sales pages, whatever that entails. Obviously, it's, you know, like I said, design is messaging is still looking at the offer. It's looking at the structure of the page. Maybe not so much technical stuff. Obviously, I'm still, you know,
Guri (07:00)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (07:19)
Well worse than that as well. you know, if you need to help some set on a Kajabi, I can do that as well. Or if it's a WordPress site or, know, so I still have the ability to help people with that as well. But obviously I do want to focus on the sales page itself to make sure that that convert as good as possible to make sure that you get, you know, convert those visitors into buyers, obviously.
Guri (07:39)
Yeah, yeah, and that makes total sense. So like for people who don't understand what a sales page is and why it's important for them, especially for people who are selling their retreats and even more especially for people who are into wellness space because for them this online thing is so daunting. They feel like we are doing retreats, we're doing wellness retreats, why the hell we should even like focus on the marketing or the sales page stuff.
Ken Westgaard (08:00)
Mm-hmm.
Guri (08:08)
So for them, if you want to break it down or maybe simplify the definition of what a sales page is and how it can help them, do you want to go ahead and do that?
Ken Westgaard (08:18)
Yeah, I mean, the simplest definition is obviously it's in the name. It's a page that's supposed to sell something, a product, offer, a retreat, whatever it might be. it's about when they come to that page, you want to make sure that you address any concerns that they might have, objections to why they shouldn't buy, because most people, when they come to a page and they're supposed to buy something, obviously they come with this objection of
I'm not going to buy this. I'm just going to take a look, see what it's all about, how much it costs, all that stuff. But subconsciously, they have a lot of things or lot of reasons why they do not want to buy. So your job with that page is to obviously overcome those other objections throughout the page so that you can turn that no into a yes. So that's the simplest way of putting it. But there's a combination of having that messaging, the copy, speaking to
Guri (09:04)
Okay.
Ken Westgaard (09:16)
those objections and obviously you need to have a good offer that people actually want to buy. And obviously, you know, first impressions is everything. So the design needs to be visually appealing and it needs to be structured in specific way so that you kind of take them on a journey. you might talk about, well, the headline, which is, I know I'm going a little bit deeper here, but you know, the headline is the most important thing. This is the first thing they see. And obviously if you can't get them past that thing.
Guri (09:43)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (09:44)
Well, they're not going to read the entire page, which means that they're not going to buy. So that's the first most important thing you're going to need to look at. Yeah, go ahead.
Guri (09:51)
Yeah,
I actually wanted to like, want you to like stop there or maybe like pause there for a second because I've, know, you and I are so familiar with this language of messaging structure offer that, know, our subconscious is like, okay, I get it. What are you talking about? You know, but for people and even coaches, you know, there are a lot of coaches who don't know what all of that means. And for them, even like sales page can be.
Ken Westgaard (09:57)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Guri (10:20)
overwhelming. So for them, if you would like to simplify this, that what is messaging and structure and heading and step by step thing, or maybe in whichever way you want to do it. But what's the role of all of these things when it comes to creating a converting sales page?
Ken Westgaard (10:41)
Okay. Well, like to, know, a sales page, I can divide that into three key areas, basically. So one of them is what I call captivating copy. A copy is basically the words on your sales page, every single word. And then you have what I call the visual flow, which is how things look and how it is structured. So when I say structure, mean like what goes where, basically.
And then you have the money making offer, is an irresistible offer. That is the thing that you're selling in your case or your audience case is the retreat. Like what does that retreat look like? So you want to position that as well as you possibly can. That's how I see it.
Guri (11:30)
Okay, can obviously go deeper into that. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Ken Westgaard (11:34)
Obviously, we can. And yeah.
Now, I mean, we could go really deep on it, obviously, but like, capital eddy copy, the messaging, like I said, that's the words. So like I mentioned, we need to overcome some objections that they have. We need to weave that in maybe into like a story. We don't need to say it like, this is your objection, but we need to kind of explain to them like, I understand you. I understand where you come from. I see you. I hear you.
Guri (11:46)
Man.
Uh-huh.
Ken Westgaard (12:04)
But, you know, and then you switch it up a little bit and then you talk about maybe what this is going to look like after they've been on your retreat. Like what does life look like after that? So you take them through the story and you use their words. If you've done research, you make sure you use their words so they, you know, resonate with that. That's probably one of the most important things to think about. Like how do they speak about this? What do they think? Well, like what's, what are their thoughts? What are their feelings? How are they saying things?
All those kinds of things. And this part is probably the most important part of the page because if you have your messaging and the copy on point, that will do the sale for you. mean, you can even have a terrible offer. Your page can look incredibly awful, but you still will make some sales. But obviously if you have all these pieces working together, that's when you really start to see a lot of sales.
Guri (13:01)
So you're saying that messaging or captivating copy, if you put it simply, is the most important. And then comes the visual design or... And then the money making off.
Ken Westgaard (13:09)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
Guri (13:19)
So I'll come back to this, but I first want to address and bring more context for people so that they can relate to what they are doing in their life and how sales page kind of relates to what their offer is. So what do you think might be some of the mistakes that people might be making that is not
Ken Westgaard (13:35)
Mm-hmm.
Guri (13:49)
That is kind of, that is not selling their offer, their retreats, their coaching. Or what are some of the sales page mistakes that people might be making? Let me just take it as simple as that.
Ken Westgaard (14:03)
Well, think obviously people, if they create a sales page, they think that they can just put it out there and that's it. They're done. They don't have to touch it anymore. It's just, you you're going to go to sleep and tomorrow morning you're going to have sales. But it's not really that easy. It's a living, breathing thing and it keeps evolving. I think it's important to kind of go back to it, see how you can improve it. But when you start doing these things,
Guri (14:19)
Mm-hmm.
Ken Westgaard (14:33)
Basically, you're testing out things. That's what you're basically doing. But you don't want to do a full makeover every single time you try to make the page better. You want to make sure you take one step at a time. So maybe you start out with the headline. Like we talked about the first paragraph of text that you have on top of your page. You test that out, change it, see what happens. Do I get more people to buy versus how many people?
Of course, we're looking at the conversion rate. So if they don't know what that is, that is basically how many viewers you have versus how many sales you get from it. And then you get percentages of that, obviously. So if you can increase that percentage, then by doing a change, then obviously that change worked. Then you want to keep it. Or you can even test, like, can I make it even better to see what happens? But you got to do it step by step. Because if you do everything all at once, then you don't know what was the thing that actually worked here, or was it, know.
Yeah, so you need to take it step by step.
Guri (15:34)
Let's get the headline for a minute. And so you say test something out. What are some of the ways where people can identify that what they're doing is correct and what they're doing is wrong? And yes, you mentioned that conversion rate is one way to identify that.
But just by the look of it, like if I read a heading, can it give me the confidence that yes, this could be the right heading? So is there a way to just by writing a heading or looking at it, we can identify that yeah, this could be a good heading as opposed to putting it on the sales page and then testing it out? Of course, that's the best way. But can I get some of the confidence without even testing it?
Ken Westgaard (16:24)
Absolutely. Obviously, you can use social media and you can do stuff on social media that will kind of give you confirmation of is this something people respond to, engage to, like, comment, whatever. So obviously, if they do that, then you know that I have something here that people like. Okay, that is probably something I can also use on my sales page. But obviously, one way to really know that you got like a headline that
Guri (16:39)
See you.
Ken Westgaard (16:51)
could potentially be better is if you get more specific. If you are vague or you try to use words that are fluffy or words that could be described in many ways. Like lot of people use the word overwhelm, right? And you and I know that overwhelm, well, that's a little bit vague because that can mean a lot for a lot of people. So if you can make that into something specific, like what does overwhelm look like to these people? Obviously, you're not going to hit
every single person on that, but potentially they'll still see it in the way that you want them to see it. But for those who really feel that way, they're going to be like, my God, it's like, you're in my head. Like this is me. And that's the feeling that you want them to have. so yeah, using numbers, using dates and times and things like that, just to kind of make it more specific, definitely helps a lot, but make sure that you don't use words that feel vague and
Guri (17:33)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (17:48)
fluffy basically.
Guri (17:50)
be like a good example of how to do it and how not to do it. So you mentioned overwhelm, like, how do I put it in a headline and what could be the best like working alternative.
Ken Westgaard (18:05)
Right. I've used one in the past, like when we talk about moms, helping moms, you know, not feeling overwhelmed when they go shopping or something like that. And you can make that a lot more specific by getting specific like what kind of mom that it says, like let's say it's a soccer mom and we can say that she's busy and we can say that, you know, she spends
you know, two hours going shopping. and, know, we can help her get that reduced to like 30 minutes once a week instead of, you know, spending two hours on any given day. Yeah.
Guri (18:51)
if we were to put it in like one sentence, how would that look like?
Ken Westgaard (18:55)
That would look like I help busy soccer moms Get their shopping done in 30 minutes once a week
Guri (19:04)
yeah, nice. That's really good.
Ken Westgaard (19:06)
Yeah. So you see how much more specific that is versus I help mom shop. It's really super vague and it doesn't really. Yeah. The person who sees that is not going to say, yeah, that's me. But if you say, yes, I'm a sucker mom. Yes, I'm busy. Yes. I want to get shopping done in 30 minutes once a week. Perfect. That's me. Okay. Where do I sign up?
Guri (19:28)
So what I'm hearing is that there's an audience and there's a problem and then there's an outcome and you're able to get that outcome in less time. And there's an interesting thing the other day and I have a community where retreat professionals hang out and retreat professionals and coaches have to build a habit of saying this together. I kind of sometimes miss the one and you know, overemphasize on the other sometimes. Anyway, so.
Ken Westgaard (19:37)
Yeah. Yes.
Guri (19:56)
The other day, there's this lady who put a comment in the group. She did a post actually. And she said that, you know, someone asked me what I do and I couldn't explain to her what I do. And she kept saying, I'm a wellness practitioner. a therapist for 10 years and XYZ. the other person, and then she mentions that I said so many things about me that I left the other person more confused. The other person was like,
Ken Westgaard (20:23)
Right.
Guri (20:26)
What does she exactly do? And so the way you put it, and I'm gonna have to like ask you again to kind of repeat that and maybe something else. I mean, if you've forgotten it, but the way you put that statement helps so many people identify their niche and also the headline because the headline or the title or niche, whatever, you know, whatever we are kind of crafting.
Ken Westgaard (20:28)
Alright.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Guri (20:53)
kind of explains the person whether this thing is for them or not. So I'm going to ask you to repeat that once again for listeners.
Ken Westgaard (21:04)
The headline or the, so what I said was I help busy soccer moms get their shopping done in 30 minutes or less than 30 minutes is even better once a week.
Guri (21:06)
this statement that you mentioned.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Awesome. So that's a good thing. moving on to what are the other things if you want to like? If you were to, say, list five things that are absolutely important on a sales page, or if those five things are missing, a sales page might not convert. And what would those five things be? And one, of course, is the headline.
Ken Westgaard (21:50)
Yes, I was going
to say that.
Guri (21:51)
Yeah. But what are the like,
what are the other four things that are? So I don't, I would. So these four things could be something people can take away from this podcast and like apply it right away, you know, as opposed to something like an offer. Now an offer requires much deeper understanding. So when I say five things, I mean, like something people can just do right away after listening to this.
Ken Westgaard (22:06)
Mm-hmm.
obviously.
Yeah. Yeah, like I said, the headline is definitely one of those things. I think also having good call to actions is important. I would love to see people use more of call to actions that are buttons, if you will, to be more playful, like have a little bit more fun with it. It doesn't have to be as boring as join now, enroll now, buy now.
Guri (22:29)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (22:48)
all that stuff because that is so boring. We want to focus on maybe on the transformation that they're going to have. You can get my guide now or just use a little bit different words to express what they're getting to get them excited. You want to get them excited. That's the whole idea instead of just being boring and just say bye now. So that's definitely one thing that they can play around with and just have fun with because there's no
Guri (23:09)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (23:16)
Nothing that is set in stone, to be honest. Just try to avoid being boring and bland. Another thing is obviously, design-wise, make sure there's a lot of breathing room on your page. Don't try to clutter it. Don't have too much, know, boxes of text that's really heavy. Spread things out. Make sure it's a lot of white space, as we call it. You know, have room around every single element you have on your page because that's going to help the reader just kind of relax and read through.
everything step by step and make sure that you have it in the way that it makes sense. you're kind of telling a story throughout it all. That's three. Let's see. Like with the offer, a lot of people talk about the features that the offer have. Like you're going to get this, you're going to get that, you're to get 20 videos, two hours of video. There's these modules, blah, blah, But talk about the benefits of it. Like what is the benefit of having those two hours of videos? What am I going to get?
Guri (24:15)
Okay.
Ken Westgaard (24:17)
So just get a little bit more specific on that and elaborate. It's better to kind of, I don't think people would write too much on them. So just write more than you think. But yeah, getting into the benefit of it, like what's in it for me? What am I getting of going through this module, for instance, or this lesson for that matter? And I think things like anything that can build credibility on your page, whether that is talking about yourself a little bit and your...
experience or having testimonials on a page if you have. If you don't get somebody to be a case study for you or do something for free, just to kind of get that testimony because that's going to be worth a lot for you, even if people don't pay you to do the work. And having some kind of guarantee, you know, that's going to lower the risk for people to join because then the risk is on more on you typically, but
Guri (24:51)
Mm-hmm.
It's
Ken Westgaard (25:14)
In all honesty, most people don't use the guarantee. They don't ask for refund either because they know they haven't done the work of requesting a refund. So they feel like, haven't done the work. it's not really, you know, right for me to ask for refund. And people are lazy. Let's be honest. Like, have to go through all this. You know, nevermind. I'm not going to bother. Obviously it depends on the price point of these things, but
Guri (25:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (25:42)
Either way, a guarantee to kind of lower that risk to make sure that it's easy for them to say yes, definitely. So yeah, I think that's fine. Yeah.
Guri (25:50)
Yeah, I think that's six. Yeah, think fifth one was credibility and the guarantees, the sixth then. Yeah, that's a bonus. And you know, yeah, I was gonna say that. That's actually a good thing because you you can always have a bonus on your sales page.
Ken Westgaard (25:52)
Essex maybe.
Yeah, right.
That's bonus. Yeah, bonus is also something you can add to your offer, by the way.
Yeah, that
will definitely help increase the value of the offer itself. It's going to look like you're getting more than you bargained for. So it's definitely going to make things look a little bit better.
Guri (26:21)
Makes sense. So what would be like...
If you were to compare, would like you to give me an example or give listeners an example of what features versus benefits look like. So when you say what's in it for me, when I'm your audience and I'm going on a sales page, and what I'm excited about is learning about what's in it for me.
Ken Westgaard (26:49)
Mm-hmm.
Guri (26:59)
And so what's the impact or the effect of features versus the benefits on me psychologically? what's the, do you get my question? Like if I'm going on a sales page and all I'm seeing is features, it's still somewhere what's in it for me. And if I'm going on a sales page, let's say page B, and I'm seeing a bunch of benefits, it's still.
Ken Westgaard (27:12)
Yeah, I think so.
Guri (27:27)
what's in it for me, but like what's the psychological or subconscious impact or difference that, you know, these two creates? Like why I'm more interested in Salespage B.
Ken Westgaard (27:39)
Right? If I'm understanding you correctly, like, if you have, a lot of people would say, like, you have lifetime access to my program, right? Which is great, and it's pretty common, so it's nothing special, to be honest. But if you change that instead of saying just lifetime access, and you say that, you know, whenever you need to come back to this program,
whether that's later in life or it's a couple of weeks from now, it's always going to be here for you whenever you need it. And you'll have access to this for as long as the program exists. That kind of tells a different story. so I get access to it whenever I need to. I can come back a year from now and I can still go through it. And even you can add to that, we will update this every single year without any extra costs. That's going to, ooh.
Guri (28:21)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (28:32)
So you're getting a little bit more specific and you're really talking about like, like I said, like what's the benefit for it? What's in it me? Well, you can go on and read this five years from now and still go back into it. And we do that with the courses that we have as well, like Business by Design and New Generation, Mastery and all that stuff. So continues to go back because we evolve and we see things differently and we learn new things. And like I said, there's updates all the time. So yeah.
Guri (28:48)
Yeah.
you.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that it's the same thing, but said differently and in a way to kind of appeal to my subconscious more.
Ken Westgaard (29:13)
Yes, and we're doing kind of what we do with the headline. Like I say, we're getting more specific and that's key to, so this is part of the messaging part as well. You might not think it, that it is, it's just, you know, it's just a piece of the offer, but if you do it rightly and you use messaging and you get specific, then it's going to sell itself a little bit more.
Guri (29:34)
Also, I feel like I'm just adding a point, and there's nothing built up yet in my mind, but I feel like saying it, that when you see features, you're more like someone else is, like the element of it's about me is missing in the features. I kind of feel that. As opposed to benefits, so when I read a benefit-driven headline or subheading or a bullet point,
kind of feels like the person is talking to me and the person is making it about me as opposed to them.
Ken Westgaard (30:12)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's to
add on that, throughout the page, do not make it about you. Do not say, I, I, it's about you. It's about them. So you talk about your user or you, because you're speaking directly to that one person. You don't want to think of this like it's a thousand people going into a page and addressing them all, talking to it as them, because there's one specific person.
Guri (30:22)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (30:41)
looking at your page and you want to talk directly to that person. So always be using that kind of point of view when you're writing so you don't talk about yourself and all of the other people, but it's talking specifically to them.
Guri (30:55)
Yeah, you explained it beautifully, but I just wanted to chime in.
Ken Westgaard (31:00)
That's great. know, I having this conversation.
Guri (31:01)
Yeah,
you know that it happens when you're a coach, especially if you have a similar niche. Anyway, so those are like grade five things and I think most people can do it right away after listening to this episode and I'm just gonna like quickly repeat them. First is heading and making sure that it's specific and if we can include some time frame or we can reduce the effort.
Ken Westgaard (31:09)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Guri (31:31)
like you said, doing something in 30 minutes or less than 30 minutes or maybe once a week. So if you can do that. And then the second is the call to action and kind of being playful with the CDA's. And third is keeping enough breathing room on a sales page, not trying to stuff in everything, or like making sure there's enough bite space. yes, can make sure, mean, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
So those are the three. The fourth is benefits and benefits that are more like you focused as opposed to I focused. And the fifth one is credibility, like making sure that you have any case study or testimonial or something about your work or yourself. And then you gave us a bonus, the guarantee. So those are six things that people can go and apply.
Ken Westgaard (32:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Guri (32:26)
to date on their sales page, correct?
Ken Westgaard (32:29)
Yes, correct.
Guri (32:31)
Okay, so moving on to the next segment, I think you have a framework as well that you use specifically to kind of structure all of this. So do you want to talk more about that?
Ken Westgaard (32:45)
We
kind of already talked about it, but it's the conversion triangle. And like I said, it's the captivating copy, it's the visual flow, and it's the amount of making offer. And these are the three areas that most people make mistakes and they might not get it to work. But if you can fix these three elements, then you will have a sales play that is converting a lot better than you used to. So yeah, we've kind of already gone through a lot of that, but I don't know if there's anything specific that you want to talk about so we can...
Guri (32:48)
Okay.
Ken Westgaard (33:15)
certainly do that.
Guri (33:16)
So what if one of these three or two of these three is missing while one of these is absolutely perfect? Like if somebody is doing really well with the messaging or the captivating coffee. Coffee, my god. Yeah, I have coffee, I'm like, yeah, captivating coffee. OK, so captivating coffee, but the visual flow and money making offer is missing, let's say. So what would be the impact of that?
Ken Westgaard (33:27)
Yeah.
Coffee. Need some coffee here.
Well, like I said, messaging is the most important thing. if you have that, you dial that in, you got that to work. Like I you're going to make some sales because it kind of carries the other two flaws. So it's going to work. But obviously, if, and I think if you're lacking the cap 30 copy part, let's say you have a good offer and you even have good visual flow, know, structure as well, looks nice.
but the messaging is totally lacking, you're probably not going to make a lot of sales. you couldn't even end up with zero sales to be honest, because if that's the thing that's missing, then you have a really big problem to be honest. That being said, know, still it's about making every single step work for you. So if you have the messaging and you have a great offer, the visual flow doesn't really matter that much. But again, if you add that third element,
then yes, you're going to make a lot more sales. And then same way, if you have good design, well, design sales page and you have the messaging, but the offer might not be that good, you're still going to make some sales. But again, if you have a really great offer as well, that's when you're to have a high-comer and sales page.
Guri (35:06)
That's nice actually. Yeah, and that makes sense also. So I believe that once you have the copy dialed in, at least are into, you're really connecting with your audience's subconscious well. So you know what they want, you know what's missing in their life. And once you have done the job of communicating that correctly, people are already in, like 60 % in, just a random number.
Ken Westgaard (35:22)
Yes.
Yeah.
Guri (35:35)
And so if you can just use that copy and create a nice visual flow, then it's like you've taken that 60 % to maybe 70 or 75%. And the rest of the thing is sorted once you have a good offer.
Ken Westgaard (35:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, and the messaging goes into the offer as well, like you talked about before with the benefits. you will copy that over and you will just make it even better. And I think for, you know, if you create a sales page, you basically have everything that you need for a launch as well, because you want to make sure like, if you, let's say you're running an ad and you have a webinar and that webinar leads to this sales page.
You want to make sure that it is consistent message throughout all of these elements. So they don't get confused coming from the ad and the ad doesn't really match the webinar. And when you're done with the webinar, you come to sales page and like, I don't know, this doesn't make sense, right? So if you pull everything from the sales page and you can create a webinar that's based something around your offer, you know, maybe you solve a small problem. And then obviously you use that webinar to create the ad as well. And then you have a consistent message throughout the whole.
I like to say start with the sales page and then create everything else afterwards.
Guri (36:56)
Okay, so I got two questions for you and based on the thing that you just mentioned, but I'm gonna ask them a little later. The first thing that I wanna ask is, do you think the offer should be created first and the messaging should come second or the messaging should come first for the sales page specifically? The offer should come second.
Ken Westgaard (37:21)
That's a great question. I
personally, love to start with the offer because that kind of gets me excited. But obviously, the messaging is going to help you create that offer. So if you nail down your messaging, you really get to understand the problems that people have and how you can solve that. That's going to help you create the offer. So even though I might be working a little bit backwards,
definitely start with the messaging. That's like, do the research, get to know your audience, know their problems, what they're saying, what they're thinking, feeling, doing all that stuff first, because that will help you kind of see like, okay, where can I help them? What kind of solution can I provide for them based on what I know about this? And then you try to combine that with a problem that you want to solve. I think that is also really important that you don't take on something that you don't really want to do because that's going to come through in your offering, your messaging.
whenever you show up live or do anything on social media as well, because your heart has got to be in it regardless. So, and I've done this mistake myself throughout the years as well, like doing something I think I want to do and I'm trying to help people, but it doesn't connect. So, and I'm not into it really the way I want to until now, I got to say that like sales page is like the one thing that I feel like, yes, this is it. This is the one thing that I want to help people with.
Guri (38:47)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (38:50)
Like I said, it's taken me 10 years to get to that point, when you don't give up, you will finally get there.
Guri (38:54)
Yeah,
absolutely. And also, I am a culprit of that as well, because even though what you're saying might seem counterintuitive to some, but it's so correct, because I remember when I used to, in my beginning years, I would think that I have to start with the offer. If I don't have an offer, what am I going to sell? So I need to first figure out that what am I going to sell? And then by making it
Ken Westgaard (39:17)
Mm-hmm.
Guri (39:24)
hearing crickets multiple times whenever I went out to launching, I realized that it's the messaging that comes first. And for years, I thought it's the offer that comes first, because unless I know what I'm going to sell, and so many people still think this way, that if I'm a coach, I must know what I'm going to sell first. But unless you hone in on your messaging first, you can't really sell your offer.
Ken Westgaard (39:43)
Absolutely.
Guri (39:54)
And so, no point. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to add more to that? Because then I'm going to move to the other things.
Ken Westgaard (39:57)
Exactly.
No,
think that was, I think that kind of explained it really well. Like, yeah, the offer comes second, no doubt. So make sure you do the research, talk to people, do surveys, get people to send you or, you know, have a conversation with the EMs, interview people, get them on a call. It doesn't, you don't have to sell anything. Just, you know, say, hey, I need to talk to some people about this and...
You know, if that's you, I want to hear what your thoughts are, what you're struggling with, blah, blah, blah. And you know, you might end up being a little bit of coaching on that call, but that's fine. As long as you get that information that you need and make sure you record it. That's really important. Record it, get it transcribed so you can read through it. Maybe pull out some, some golden nuggets from it.
Guri (40:44)
Mm, true.
Yeah. And I'm going to like, as you were talking, you know, I could think of this, but I see so many retreat leaders who trying to sell their retreats. And I see them in different Facebook groups posting about their retreat. And
Kind of like sometimes messaging me that, you know, my retreat is not selling even though I'm posting good pictures about my venue, and I'm doing all of those things that people ask them to do, like post in different Facebook groups and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, again, and you said it correctly, when you start with the offer, and in this case, the offer would be, this is my retreat, I wanna sell it, I wanna sell the spots, just come and join my retreat.
Ken Westgaard (41:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Guri (41:36)
And
so almost, and I feel that this is the biggest mistake because I am operating from that selling point. Like I want to sell my retreat as opposed to messaging where, as opposed to the messaging point where I'm like first figuring out who my audience is and who would be more interested in joining this retreat and what are they going through in their life. And so if I can nail that,
then my post would resonate with a lot of people. yeah.
Ken Westgaard (42:10)
Yeah, because it's really
about, it's not about the retreat, honestly. It's about how you can help the people, whatever they're struggling with. The retreat is just a bonus. That's somewhere we go to kind of work on this. So that's just icing on the cake and it's great. It's going to help sell it. But if you solve that problem for them first, that's when you're really going to see that the retreat is selling.
Guri (42:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right, and so you're saying that to solve that problem and or to even like understand what the problem is, they need to start with the messaging first. And that messaging also goes on their sales page. And that's why the sales page converts better.
Ken Westgaard (42:54)
Yes, 100%.
Guri (42:56)
Awesome. So I'm going to go to a very typical question. Which one is better? Long sales page or short sales page? Yeah, very typical.
Ken Westgaard (43:01)
Okay.
Right, right. Very typical. Yes, it
is. And there's been studies on this. this has been tested on tens of thousands of pages. And long-form pages do outperform short-form pages. personally, I think that's because with a long-form sales page, we address more people. We talk to more people, different types of people. Because when people come to the sales page,
Like personally, I look at the page and I like skim through it, read a couple of headlines, read a little bit here, wondering what's the price, okay, and then I might go back up and read a little bit more about the details. And then you have some people who come to SalesPage like, I'm sold, just tell me where am I? And then you have people who read every single detail, every single word, it's like, I need to know exactly everything. So you tend to all those types of people by having a sales.
page basically, because if it's too short, then you're going to miss out on a lot of people. The people who need the details is not going to buy. People like me who skim through it might not buy either because I'm not really getting the answers I need. The only people you're going to sell to is the people who already sold on it before they get to it. And the sales page job is to kind of help them push them over the edge to
to buy because there might be some things that are uncertain or that might be things that hasn't been answered in the webinar that you had or in the emails you sent out or the social media talking about things. So that's why I personally think that Longform Cell Space should perform better.
Guri (44:47)
I think that's rightly said. I don't feel I have nothing to add to that. I agree with you. I don't disagree with you at all because I kind of like I'm a firm believer of also long pages, long sales pages perform better.
Ken Westgaard (44:52)
You don't disagree.
That's good.
Yeah, I know a
lot of people might think that like, man, like it's gonna be too long, nobody's gonna read this, but trust me, those that do wanna read it and those who don't wanna read all of it, they don't because they don't have to.
Guri (45:17)
Now the follow-up question is also an objection to this viewpoint and I've seen it in Facebook groups a couple of times and I think you're the right person to answer it and address it. And the question is like if somebody is doing a lot of work organically, like if they're building their audience organically, so they have done quite a good job of putting their message out.
Ken Westgaard (45:42)
Mm-hmm.
Guri (45:47)
Like a lot of people know what they do, what they're doing, how they can help, and know, X, Y, And as opposed to people who are building their audience through paid ads. And through paid ads, you need a lot of like explanation or you need a lot of touch points to kind of share what you do and you know, how you can help people. So.
Ken Westgaard (45:54)
Mm.
Right.
Guri (46:12)
And then people say that people who have done the work organically, they don't need to create a long sales page because they've said it enough and have said it enough times what they do and how they can help. So I want to know what is your viewpoint? Is this kind of an objection or limiting belief? Is it a limiting belief or is it a fact? Yeah, your comments.
Ken Westgaard (46:36)
That's an interesting question, actually. I would almost say that that sounds like a limiting belief. Like, I don't want to do the work. So I'm just going to say that I don't have to because I've talked about this a million times. So people know this. And you know...
Guri (46:52)
But that also could be the way I am saying it.
Ken Westgaard (46:57)
But I think,
we know, at least you and I know that, you know, people need more touch points. They do. And you need to hear things multiple times and it feel like you're repeating yourself. But that is a good thing if you feel like you're repeating yourself, because I mean, it could take people, you know, they need to hear things 10 times before, before they act upon it or, know, they hear things differently every time you say it because they weren't in the same space as were before. I know this is up to me as well. Like there's a of things that I've listened to or
gone through and you hear one thing the first time and then the second time you hear something different and the third time you hear something new and then on the fifth time you have a different perspective because you evolve, you change and you have these new ideas of how things look. I think it's more of an excuse to not creating that long-form sales page.
Guri (47:47)
Yeah, exactly. And
I have a wonderful analogy, you know, as you were talking, something just came that it's like rehearsing every day and then skipping the final performance.
Ken Westgaard (48:01)
Right, yes,
that's the perfect one, X. Yes, really good.
Guri (48:05)
Yeah,
you were saying like you want to add to that?
Ken Westgaard (48:11)
No, think, I mean, if you use things like ads as well, I mean, that's just going to amplify everything and you're getting in front of people multiple times. I mean, yes, there people who do things organically, which is great. But if you want to get further and you want to get ahead, use some money on ads as well, because that's just going to help you. I mean, ads is only there to amplify what's already working. That's the...
kind of the job of Facebook ads or Instagram ads, whatever kind of ads you use. So if you have something working, put some money on it because then you're going to get your money back. Absolutely.
Guri (48:49)
Yeah, makes sense. All right, so kind of like, do you want to like summarize all of this for people and kind of give us the takeaways? Or if you have something else in mind and you want to just share it with the people first before giving the summary. And yeah, go ahead.
Ken Westgaard (49:15)
Like sales pages is, know, a lot of people will say that you need a sales page. I could be sitting here saying that you need a sales page, but obviously, you know, that's just my truth. My point of view. Obviously there's people who don't need a sales page. So I'm not going to say that, you know, you have to have a sales page, but if you are one of those who have a sales page and you want to make sure it works and you know,
do things the right way, then work on your messaging first and foremost. Then you can start creating your offer because you have what people struggling with and how you can help them solve them. And then you start putting it all together as a page and make it look beautiful and make sure that it flows well and stuff like that. So yeah, that's probably my final advice.
Guri (50:07)
And how can
you help people and like, so let me put it this way. What are they losing if they don't hire you or work with you or anybody who does the same work as you? So what, because a lot of people would be like, you know, I can do the job. My message is already out there. I'm going to create my sales page myself, but what are they missing if, or losing on? Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (50:22)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, I would say that, you know, I come in as a, first of all, an expert who knows things about a sales space specifically. That's the thing that I'm working on. But I have an outside view on your page. I'm not attached to your offer. I'm not attached to your messaging. None of that mattered to me. So I just look at your page from my point of view. And I honestly, I really go on gut feeling like, how am I responding to this?
And that's probably how a lot of other people is going to respond to it as well. And obviously using my conversion triangle looking at it in specific way, but just having that outside of point of view. And honestly, I'm really direct when I talk about things. If I think things doesn't look good and it doesn't work, I'm going to put it just like that. I'm going to tell you. But it's tough love.
Guri (51:17)
And
I can vouch for that. I've seen that happening in the BBRD group.
Ken Westgaard (51:25)
Yeah,
but it's tough love, you you need to hear it and you need to hear it from someone else because I have different perspective than you and you know, we're a lot closer to our own things. So we don't really see, you know, what's getting in a way. And I know that for myself as well. That's why, you know, both of us, you know, hire coaches ourselves. So we go into crew courses and buy things, programs, stuff like that, just to kind of get the help outside help, because we can't always see ourselves as well. creating a sales page for myself is a whole different game.
than helping someone else do it because I don't have the same perspective. I'm getting attached to my own stuff and like, feel like, no, I can't change it to this. I can't change it that because that doesn't feel right. having someone else's point of view is going to flip that and yeah, it's going to be a lot different.
Guri (51:54)
Yeah.
and that can keep so many business owners stuck. And it happened with me recently, it can happen to anybody. Like I was fixing the venue for one of my retreats, the upcoming, the march, I'm hosting a retreat in March in Bali. And so the venue I chose, it looks beautiful.
Ken Westgaard (52:12)
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Guri (52:27)
everything was done on the sales page, like the pictures and I was promoting it, but I wasn't getting the response or the engagement as much as I thought I would get. Given that the pictures were amazing and the venue was absolutely amazing. But then, and I kind of like, why it's not working because the way I was seeing it, and especially the sales page, the way I was seeing it, everything looked just fine.
Ken Westgaard (52:38)
Mm-hmm.
Guri (52:54)
And then, as you said, like bringing the other pair of eyes to something, and especially somebody who's known in the industry or somebody who knows this stuff. So one of the person told me that, you know, the venue is good, there's nothing wrong. But the other venue, the first where I hosted last year, it just matches your vibe.
Ken Westgaard (53:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Guri (53:17)
And so when it matches or resonates with you, people kind of tie those two things together and then they say yes. And I'm like, But this one also, I would want to go to this place. But then she said, then people are not looking from that perspective because they are looking from a different perspective. And that's when I kind of realized that I need to step back.
Ken Westgaard (53:36)
Right.
Guri (53:45)
I need to kind of change the venue and I did and it's kind of working now. So that's exactly what you said. Like when we are, we don't see our products or our pages. So we see our pages and products as the best thing out there. And there's an illusion that's created that there's nothing wrong and people who get it will come and join. But yeah, so you were saying something.
Ken Westgaard (53:46)
Mm-hmm.
There you go.
Mm-hmm.
I love that. That's a great story.
Guri (54:15)
Do you want to add to that?
Ken Westgaard (54:19)
No, think that's really interesting. you said, it's... But then again, it's not about you. It's about them. It's about the other person on the other side and what they want. Even though you want to go to Bali, that's okay, but that's not what your audience wants to. They want to go back to where you were last time because they felt like that was the right vibe. So yeah, that's interesting.
Guri (54:42)
Awesome. if you were to like in one sentence, I want to go back to that conversation we were having because I feel that we got to kind of vent sideways with it. I then then I just came with my example. But like, what are people losing if they don't work with you or anybody that does similar work?
Ken Westgaard (55:00)
You
Yeah, obviously they're going to lose out on a lot of conversions. They're going to lose on a lot of sales. That's what I do. Like I help you get those conversions going up. And obviously, you know, even, even though I have all this experience with sales patients and stuff like that, I mean, we're still, you still need to test things as you know, because we might not know everything right off the bat and we still might need to do some more research and still need to test things. But obviously with my help.
Guri (55:34)
Yeah.
Ken Westgaard (55:40)
I think there's a much better chance of you doing this the right way versus trying to do this alone. And obviously it's weight lifting off your shoulders because you don't have to do all the work alone. I'm here with you. We collaborate. We do things together. I don't believe in done for you services with Salespage, to be honest, because I think you know more about your audience. You know more about how they talk and all that stuff.
Obviously with my experience, we can make sure that we tweak it into something that makes more sense and converts a little bit better, obviously. But yeah, I think that's kind of the part where we would be missing out.
Guri (56:18)
And
I think the biggest takeaway is that people lose a lot of conversions. A lot of fails. All right, so let's summarize of this. kind of discussed, we kind of first started with your Vi. What have you been doing over past 10 years and what brought you to Flav of Pages?
Ken Westgaard (56:24)
You're leaving money on the table
Guri (56:44)
your willingness or choice of continuing with these pages. And then we talked.
a little, just a minute. And then we talked about what are the five things that people can do right away, kind of like include it onto their sales pages today and start getting some results and at least make it better than what they have right now. And you talked about headings, you talked about CDAs and multiple things, and then you also talked about your framework. What's the name of the framework again?
Ken Westgaard (57:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
the conversion triangle for framework.
Guri (57:24)
Yep, the convergent triangle framework. And there are three pillars to that. So anybody who wants to kind of create a converting sales page must have these three pillars dialed in. And one of those is captivating copy, visual flow, and the money making offer is the third one. And then we discussed, we kind of addressed a couple of questions. Yep.
Ken Westgaard (57:27)
Yes.
Yes, that's right.
Guri (57:53)
So with that, I want to end this thing. And if there's anything you want to add to kind of summarize the whole episode. And I also want you to kind of talk about where people can connect with you or if you have some free resource or maybe just your website or your social media that you want to like share with.
Ken Westgaard (58:14)
Yeah, mean, people can reach out to me and send me a DM if they have any questions around the conversion triangle, or maybe they want to get some. I can offer one feedback on the headline maybe or something like that for free if people want to send me a DM on Instagram. It's at Ken Wesker, or just search for SalesPage Pro. It's probably a lot easier. And then you see my name, Ken. And then when you know, send me a DM, and we'll see what we can help you with.
Guri (58:43)
Awesome, that sounds good. All right, Ken, it was an amazing conversation. And I know that we can go deeper into it. We can break down offer. We can break down visual design. We can break down so many things. But let's keep it simple. And let's keep it actionable for people. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today. It was great having you.
Ken Westgaard (58:53)
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you.
Thank you.