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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
[00:00:00] DC: Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds. We are back at you for another podcast of Brands, Beats and Bytes, but Larry, before we get beat, we begin, I got a shout out. Some of the members of the 100 countries in the Brand Nerds community. So I decided to tell him a shout out about 10 of these for the next 10 episodes.
[00:00:22] LT: So I don't even know these Brand Nerds.
[00:00:25] DC: Okay, here we go. You ready? LT. Let me, let me hit you. Okay. Shout out the UK. France, Germany, Nigeria, Ghana, India, Italy, China. That's just a few. So I want to shout out you Brand Nerds in those countries and tell you all, we got a special one today, a special one. So we Brand Nerds, you all know I like things in three.
So I'm gonna break this down in three to start with first a quote, "Marketing is too important to be left to the marketers." Yes, that's from Sergio Zeman, and today's guest. It's not a marketer by training. Okay. This is an engineer by training, but definitely understands marketing. Number two, the best marketing is innovative marketing.
And our guest today, LT has one of the most innovative minds I dare say in the world. And finally. Entrepreneurship. This dude is an entrepreneur multiple times over multiple times over. And you all know in Silicon Valley, they say fail fast, and they often refer to quotes by Thomas Edison. If you failed 10, 000 times, you know, 10, 000 ways that it doesn't work.
Therefore, you arrive at the ways that it works. And then finally, LT, before I turn it over you to introduce our auspicious guest today, I'm going to give you a bar from one of my favorite hip hop groups. EMPD. And the bar is, relax your mind, let your conscience be free, and get down to the sounds of E E M P D. Alright, so, here we go, guys. Uh, I don't know what you Brand Nerds need to do to relax your minds. Okay, some of you might just need to sit down and do a chant. Some of you might decide to add other substances. I am not in any way condoning that, and I'm not suggesting that our guest today, Larry is condoning that. But I am saying, sit your asses down and take a minute to listen to this podcast because this guy is exceptional. LT, who do we have in the building today?
[00:02:41] LT: All right, DC, that's a great setup. We have Dr. Jeff Karp in the house today. Welcome, Jeff.
[00:02:48] Jeff Karp: Hey, so great to be here. Thank you for inviting me on your show.
[00:02:52] LT: Yeah, we're thrilled to have you. So, okay, Brand Nerds. I had the great fortune of sitting next to Jeff on a flight from SFO to Boston. And Jeff, we were very transparent with our audience, with a Brand Nerds, and, and Jeff and I started talking. And while Jeff's background, as DC alluded to, is completely different than any other guest we've had on the 150 plus episodes of the podcast, we are very confident you will quickly hear why we felt Jeff did it
thank you. Is going to be a great podcast guest for us. So let's get into his background. Jeff grew up in rural Canada in Peterborough, Ontario. For college, he attends renowned McGill University in Montreal, where he earns a degree in chemical engineering. And then he attends the University of Toronto and obtains his PhD in chemical and biomedical engineering. If that isn't enough great schooling, Jeff decides to attend MIT in Boston where he earns a post doc in stem cells and advanced biomaterials. So at this point in 2007, Jeff joins prestigious Brigham and Women's Hospital, also known as BWH, which is in Boston, starting as instructor of medicine and working up the chain, including Co-director of Regenerative Therapeutics and eventually to Professor of Anesthesia.
So since BWH is a major teaching hospital for Harvard Medical School, Jeff has been also a faculty member at Harvard Medical School since 2009. Currently, Jeff serves as Professor of Anesthesiology at Harvard Medical School and holds an endowed chair at BWH. Over the years, Jeff has published over 175 peer reviewed papers with more than 35,000 citations.
So, okay, D, Brand Nerds, you may be thinking, alright, Jeff's clearly a really bright dude, but what does that have to do with marketing? Well, let us tell you. Jeff is also an internationally recognized innovator, serving as a fellow for the National Academy of Inventors. And ready for this, Brand Nerds? He has co founded 14 companies.
Yes. 14. How many?
[00:04:57] DC: How many Larry? I'm sorry. I want to hear that again.
[00:04:59] LT: 14. Okay. That also D includes three acquisitions and one IPO on Nasdaq. And he also has collectively raised 650 million in funding and holds more than 100 patents. His inventions have that have become companies. I'm not going to list all 14, but I'm going to three highlights.
DC and Jeff, Jeff, you need to know this as DC alluded to, we love threes, so we're going to highlight three. So, the first one is Tissium, a tissue glue for sealing holes in a beating heart. How about that? Right? Number two, Akita Biosciences, a nasal spray that neutralizes airborne pathogens. And number three, Bullseye Therapeutics, a needle that automatically stops between tissue layers in the eye to deliver gene therapy to the back of the eye. And this one was acquired in 2021 by Mira Therapeutics. So Jeff is also head of innovation at Geoversity, which is nature's university, and he's the incoming executive president. Which is a rainforest bioleadership training conservancy located in Panama, one of the top biodiversity hotspots in the world.
If it isn't enough to be an accomplished professor at one of the most prestigious medical schools, be a successful entrepreneur, and lend his expertise to helping the environment, let's add a successful author in 2024, last year, Jeff wrote the bestselling book, L. I. T. Life Ignition Tools, which has been translated into six languages and spotlighted on the next Big Idea Book Club, which is curated by Daniel Pink, Susan Cain, Malcolm Gladwell, and Adam Grant.
Where it was also featured as one of the top five books to unleash your potential and one of the top 24 happiness books of 2024. And it was featured in Inc. Magazine as one of the five must read books to fuel your growth. In the age of that Ai. As you can imagine with all this wonderful work, Jeff continually garners lots of media attention on major news outlets like CNN, the BBC, and Fortune Magazine, and he is also contributed to the Ted Med and TEDx communities. His articles on neurodiversity and self evolution have been featured in publications like the Toronto Star, fortune Magazine, and Fast Company. And he currently writes a Psychology Today blog, helping people thrive personally and professionally.
As we get to the end of the brand of these, this intro Brand Nerds perhaps the best part is Jeff is really a great human. Dr. Jeff Karp is on a mission to help people move from disconnection to connection, beginning with the journey of learning to code his own brain at age seven. Struggling with undiagnosed ADHD, Jeff discovered that embracing neurodiversity could unleash extraordinary powers of observation, hyper focus, and creativity.
Through this realization, Jeff transformed personal challenges into catalysts for innovation, leadership, and growth. Today, he shares these insights worldwide, inspiring audiences to cultivate meaningful connections with themselves, others, and the world around them. Beyond his scientific and business achievements, Jeff's story is defined by deep commitment to spirituality, mindfulness, and nature's inherent wisdom.
Jeff lives in Brookline, Massachusetts with his wife Jessica, son Josh, daughter Jordi, and two Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, Ryder and Ginger. Feel really lucky to have him here. Welcome to Brands Beats and Bytes, Dr. Jeff Karp.
[00:08:28] Jeff Karp: Hey, thank you so much. And, and, you know, I must start by just saying, um, that truly I'm just as surprised as you are, um, about all the things that you just listed.
Um, because, and, and, and I, I, I really say that from a place of, um, Of, uh, you know, it's from this place of, of, as you kind of mentioned, um, I really struggled a lot when I was younger and, um, and, uh, you know, maybe we can get into some of that, but, uh, just some of the challenges in elementary school. And I really feel like a lot of this is just finding ways.
To channel the energy, you know, everybody represents this incredible source of energy and inspiration and, you know, ability to, um, to, to, to create, um, and, uh, to create experiences to create. Um, products to create, you know, art to create all kinds of things. And I feel like it's, you know, bringing people together, um, with a shared purpose, a vision.
Um, you know, magic truly happens and, and I've just been really, um, yeah, surprised and lucky and fortunate that, that I've been able to, to, to, um, be in the presence of so many people who have just brought their, their creativity to the table in a major way.
[00:09:50] DC: Yeah, uh, go ahead, Larry. You about to say something, brother?
[00:09:53] LT: I was just gonna say, DC and you have a lot of things in common here, um, which I'd love to get into.
[00:10:01] DC: We're gonna get into that a little later, a little later, in what's popping specifically. We're gonna, we're gonna lay all of this out. Uh, how would you like us to refer to you? Jeff,
[00:10:14] Jeff Karp: My kids call me Jeff, everyone calls me Jeff.
[00:10:16] LT: He's definitely a Jeff,
[00:10:18] DC: I can tell you that easily. Then Jeff, then Jeff, we're gonna go there. So Jeff, when Larry does these introductions, and he does an exceptional job, I study the reaction of the guest. And often times what I see through the eyes and the, you talked about energy, the energy that I feel, is as if Larry is writing a script, talking about a script of a movie, and this is the lead character of this movie.
And you, Jeff, as the guest, are like sitting in the audience, watching the movie, okay? Like, oh wow, that's what happened? It just, uh, it says a lot when you can be in a position to hear someone else. Talk about your accomplishments. So, again, LT, well done. And Jeff, nice watching your face as he was, uh, as he was doing it.
[00:11:13] LT: Jeff wrote half of it, by the way. He just doesn't know that. I stole literally from his bio.
[00:11:17] DC: All good, brother. Second thing as a Brand Nerd, I want you to notice something. Larry said that he and Jeff met on a plane. Jeff, as has been noted in the wonderful introduction, has founded, co founded 14 companies, has a company on NASDAQ, etc.
You can probably make in your own conclusions that they probably did not meet in the coach section. But I digress! I digress, which leads me to my, uh, to my third thing, when you talked about all of the things that Jeff has accomplished and that his patents and you only pick three of them, I thought, are we not forgetting one of the patents in 3500 BC, there was this thing called the wheel that was created in Mesopotamia.
Did he not also do that, Larry? All right, but seriously, no Brand Nerds. Okay, Jeff, we're getting to the Get Comfy section. And this is what we do to kind of warm up our guests before we started to get into the meat of the podcast. You have decided to dedicate a large portion of your life to teaching.
Teaching other people and we, Larry and I, and others like us who have gone to graduate school, we have often sometimes lamented that our teachers don't know diddly squat about the real world in business. They're very good at theory, most of our teachers, but very few of them good at actually taking the theory and put it into practice.
You have done both. You, you, you teach and you create and make business. How have you been able to do that? And what do you see is the advantages of being a teacher with students to actually creating and, and developing and running businesses?
[00:13:09] Jeff Karp: Yeah, those are many great questions in, in there. And um, one of the things that really jumps to mind for me is, um, is how I think, you know, for tens of thousands of years, we were hunters and gatherers, we were nomads, um, and we were learning through, um, uh, authentic e experiences.
And, and you know, that's how we learned right? Through interacting with nature, um, through sharing our experiences from with others. And, um, you know, really being motivated a lot by I think survival, but also by some of these other forces of, of love and curiosity and creative expression. And I think that for me, um, In a similar vein, uh, at a very early age, um, I learned and, you know, somewhat the hard way, but maybe the good way, um, to, uh, to lead with curiosity very early on.
And I got in touch with this boundless curiosity that I had. And the, um, really the, the experience of, of embracing that and, and really flooding my brains with all those neurotransmitters that one, one feels when they are leading with curiosity. And, and then I think, you know, on top of that, a big part of it has been for me, um, that to almost to reject kind of similar to what you, what you said.
Um, this formal education, which just never seemed right to me and, and, and to push for experiences to push for learning things like I always, I always felt that because I've encountered so many challenges and failures and things along the way. Um, that if, if that I kind of realized that, um, you know, and I had support of my, my mom and a few select teachers that that helped allow me to kind of keep going.
Um, but, and, and it was through that, that I learned, um, To, uh, that, that if things weren't working for me, if things weren't going well, that it wasn't absolute, that it meant that I just wasn't, it was, I wasn't engaging a process that worked for me and that it was my duty to observe others and to focus my attention.
Our attention is so powerful. But to focus my attention on processes that worked for other people, and then to try them on in a very authentic, you know, experiential way to figure things out rather than to just accept that I was going to learn it. how to do things in the classroom, which very quickly in my life, I figured out was not was not the way that, you know, that I was going to be inspired, or that I was going to learn the processes I needed to engage to contribute value to society.
So that, that, to me, are some of the fundamentals behind What, like what, what has driven me as well as the process that I've engaged. So I'll give you, I'll give you an example. When I was coming out of MIT from doing my postdoc, I did my postdoc with Um, really, um, you know, one of the, one of the top innovators that the world has probably ever seen, um, Robert Langer, um, he's co founder of Moderna and, and dozens and dozens and dozens of other companies, uh, you know, it's estimated that his technologies have impacted billions of people on the planet in positive ways.
And, um, and I, I, um, there's a whole story of how I got into his lab. He initially said no to me and I figured out actually how to get in. But, um, but, and, but what happened, the story I want to sort of focus on here is that when I was transitioning out of his lab into my faculty position. Um, I realized that, that I wanted to commit my life to translation to, to not just, um, discovering new things in science, but finding ways to translate them into products that could help people.
Um, but I had this holy crap moment because I realized that I had observed other people doing it, but I didn't know how to do it myself. That all of a sudden it just struck me that I was so excited at, but I didn't know what to do. And so one of the things that I did in, again, kind of going back to this like authentic experiential, you know, sort of commitment is I thought, okay, who are, what are the skills that I need to learn in order to spin companies out of my lab to, to move technologies to patients?
And there's things like. You know, intellectual property, manufacturing, um, clinical trial design, reimbursements, like, you know, there's all these things. And I thought, okay, I'm, I'd love to learn them, but I, it's going to take me too long to learn these things. So I started asking the question, who has these skills?
And I looked around and in the community, I realized that there were a lot of people like that, that the community was rich with people with those skills. And so what I did is I made a strategic decision coming out of my postdoc into my faculty position that every two or three weeks, I was going to meet with someone in the entrepreneurial ecosystem and form a relationship.
And I didn't know how to do it. And I didn't. I just. Felt the energy, the gravity to do it. And I didn't, it's not like I knew what questions to ask, but I was committed to figuring out how to forge those relationships. And over time, I did that for 10 years. I met every two or three
years. For 10 years, I did that.
I met patent lawyers, corporate lawyers, reimbursement, regulatory experts, people in pharma, biotech, medtech, consumer health, um, you know, all across the board. I attended all, all kinds of networking events. And I really, the focus was developing, not networking. It was forming relationships. And what happened was that actually led to the formation of an informal advisory board for my laboratory, wasn't planned, it just sort of materialized over time. And so what happened is as we're advancing projects in my lab, I could reach out to people and say, Hey, if this works, could it be manufactured using traditional manufacturing technologies? Could this, what would the clinical trial look like? And what would we need to compare to?
Because we want to include that comparator. Early in our experiments to know if we're doing better than the gold standard or not. We want to compare to something to define importance, to define a North star for our projects. And so that informal advisory board helped me to, to almost every major project in my lab has spun out into a company because of that process that I engaged.
And then in addition to those relationships, I also, um, had relationships with many people, entrepreneurs who could become CEOs. of those companies or know people who could become CEOs. So I realized that I saw other people would develop a technology, get to get it, move it far along, and then they look for a CEO.
But the challenge is, is that that is relationship dependent. It takes months and months to develop a relationship with somebody. And because I committed to 10 years of developing relationships with people in the community, that actually created this. This flow, this connection to entrepreneurs that I already knew had relationships with, and they just naturally became the CEOs of these companies that I started spinning out of the lab.
[00:20:41] LT: That's so deep, D.
[00:20:44] DC: Larry, you got anything in response to that? I have one, and then we'll move to our questions. Okay.
[00:20:49] LT: Take your one and move it. It's, it's a mic for me.
[00:20:52] DC: It is a Brand Nerds. Um, we are in the age of technology. You have just heard from a person who got his academic footing in engineering, a highly analytical space.
He has talked about labs. He's talked about patents, but the through line of it all Brand Nerds was one word relationships. Yep. Relationships. All right, we'll move to our five questions. That was a dope answer. Jeff, that was a dope answer. All right, five questions. So here's what we do, Doc. Larry and I go back and forth with questions until we arrive at five.
I get to begin this. And what, what I'd like to know is for you, what was the first brand experience that you had that lit your soul a fire? We know you're a spiritual dude, Brand Nerds, his book, uh, his computer rather is sitting on three books right now. One of them is a Zen book. So we know you're spiritual.
So what was your first brand experience that was spiritual for you? You loved it. You couldn't get enough of spending time with it or. Seeing it or touching it almost like a first love. What was that for you?
[00:22:12] Jeff Karp: Well, um, the, the really the, the first time that I ever encountered, um, brand and, and when I think of brand, I think of a brand is a perception, uh, and it, it, it's, um, a perception of, of, of reality.
And I, the, the, really the, the most profound experience in branding at the early stage I can remember is, is actually the labels that I got from my teachers, um, for, um, being lazy, a lost cause. Ah, okay. For Uh, you know, not being good enough, not going to mount anything. At one point they asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up?
And I said, I want to be a doctor. And they said, sorry, you, you know, you better set your sights lower. Cause that's not your brand. That's not what, that's not you. You don't have what it takes. And so very early on. Um, I got in touch with this, these labels, um, that I initially believed was my identity, was my brand, right?
And I had very, you know, I have very supportive parents, uh, who, um, you know, really drilled into me that those labels were actually not my brand. Uh, and that there was a lot more there than, um, than I was being told, um, by others. And it was almost like I sort of, when I go back to that time, I can, you know, almost felt like I, I was in front with a computer analogy.
Like I had this hardware, um, that was good hardware, but I didn't have software that worked for me. And I realized at this early age that I needed to become the coder of my own brain to program that software. Um, so that I could function in society because I really, I felt like an alien, you know, that, and that, that to me is really the most sort of early experience with, with branding, because that's, you know, it was sort of the brand of myself, my own self identity, um, was around.
And, and, and, and that experience I know I'm talking about sort of like, you know, these, the inner sort of experience that actually had a profound impact on how I experienced everything around me, and how I interpreted and engaged and experienced brands from all the various products that you know, I, I had, I, I, at an early age, I, I, I, I gained this profound awareness and, and one of the, the brands, I think, um, that is sort of, if we're thinking about, you know, product brands that early on captivated me.
Um, was, I was really into, um, rap music. Um, I was, uh, I had, I had albums from Run DMC, I had Fat Boys, um, I had Public Enemy, although my parents didn't really like me playing that one. I somehow convinced them to, uh, to get me that one. I was into all that.
[00:25:14] LT: Christmas in Hollis was okay, but when you get to Public Enemy
[00:25:17] Jeff Karp: Public Enemy, I had it. Um, and, uh And, and, and I had the explicit version as well, um, the tape and, uh, back in the, in the eighties, um, some of the more notable rappers were wearing, um, uh, hats that had, um, the Raiders. Uh, oh yes, that's right.
[00:25:36] DC: Yeah. Yeah. NWA among them.
[00:25:40] Jeff Karp: Yeah. Yeah. So I got myself a Raiders hat. I kind of identified with, um, you know, a lot of it I felt was sort of this, this counterculture, um, kind of brand and, and, and that felt, that felt right to me back then.
Um, and so that, that was, you know, that, that's how I'd answer that question.
[00:26:00] LT: I love your context for that, Jeff, um, because you would never strike me as somebody who was a Rada, the way Al Davis used to say it, you know, um, but, but because of the context that you shared, that's really deep, D. I love that.
[00:26:16] Jeff Karp: And by the way, one thing just to add to that, which is just, you know, reflecting back at that time, it was that this awareness that I had this self awareness, I also, I was constantly running experiments.
I was constantly trying to figure out how to fit in really, um, when I was younger, because, because I really felt like, like an outcast. Um, and, and so I was very focused on what I wore, what I did, what I said, and the paying attention to the cues, the reactions around me. So I felt like that actually started to, I had this sort of quick evolution of of getting intact in touch with brand awareness and the influence of the clothing that I wore. I, I, at one point I switched my clothing to kind of more like, you know, fly boy kind of, you know, I saw, I was at this party and I saw people dressed a certain way and I went out. It was a Friday night that weekend.
I went and bought some clothes to kind of match, match their style. And I showed up at school on Monday wearing the clothes and. Um, you know, it a, uh, a little bit of a traumatic experience, actually, when I did that, but traumatic experiment. But, but I, I really got in touch with, with how, when I changed my look, how that actually changed how people interacted with me. Um, and, and that, uh, those that, that really imprinted in me. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:40] DC: Wow.
[00:27:42] LT: Deep. Love it.
[00:27:43] DC: All right. Uh, next question. LT
[00:27:47] LT: Okay. Uh, Jeff, who has had or is having the most influence on your career?
[00:27:53] Jeff Karp: I think I think, um, uh, there's a few that I would like to mention, uh, if possible. The first is actually nature. Uh, and, um, when I was in the third grade, I moved out to the country, uh, and I'm talking the real country.
Uh, there was a buffalo farm across the road, a sheep farm beside us, farmer's field in my backyard. Um, our driveway was a thousand feet long, carved through a forest. Um, there was a Creek that ran, you know, it was a little bridge on it as well. And, um, I would get off the bus. Um, and I would, you know, I would actually have a lot of, I'd be exhausted, kind of demoralized, actually, a lot of the time, not not feeling great, because I'd been working so hard to just fit in.
And, and, you know, really, that that part took a lot, a lot of time, a lot of effort. But as I walked along this, this Driveway, which we call the laneway. I felt this soulless when, you know, no phones, there was nothing to do except look into the forest as I was walking. And, um, I just felt like nature was hugging me.
And I developed this relationship with nature at a very early age, um, where I just felt it was so important for me to connect with. And I felt that embrace. Um, and, you know, the science today is sort of catching up, um, you know, shows us that when you, when you actually spend time in nature and in meaningful ways, you know, it lowers your heart rate, your blood pressure, your sense of wellness increases, um, you know, reduced anxiety and all these things.
And that experience, I think is one of the key things that has fueled innovation in my lab, because one of the ways that we deal with failure and running into challenges is, um, we use nature as a way to intercept how we approach problems and our thinking, because I think. over time, we tend to interact with the same people, we tend to have the same conversations, and our thinking gets more narrow and we there's this contraction of our thinking over time. And what we do in my lab is we turn to nature for inspiration. So we look at like, we're developing a surgical glue. And it, you know, we work and work and work, and then it fails. And we say, okay, well, what creatures exist in in wet environments that are dynamic like where waves are crashing against them or rains pouring down and we learn how they stick to surfaces and through that through looking at geckos and slugs and snails, we were able to create a surgical glue that could seal holes inside of beating heart.
Um, it's include two clinical trials now, one for suture lists, nerve reconstruction and one for tactless hernia repair. Um, so we can use this This glue works in very wet environments. So, so nature has really had, I would say the most profound influence over me and still does to this, this day. And I continue to deepen my, my connection with a variety of practices and rituals that I engage in.
The other that I really like to bring up is my parents. Um, and in particular, my mother, um, who is a true crusader, um, for me in a very
[00:31:05] LT: What's your mom's name?
[00:31:06] Jeff Karp: Um, her name is Susie.
[00:31:08] LT: Is she still with us?
[00:31:09] Jeff Karp: Yeah, she's still with us. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:11] LT: Shout out to Susie.
[00:31:12] Jeff Karp: Yeah. So, um, she, she saw the struggles I was going through and didn't just sit back.
She, she really tried everything she could. And. Um, when everything was sort of failing for me, I was a C and D student up until the seventh grade. Um, there were these speech competitions at my school, and she actually wrote the speeches for me, and she helped me memorize them, which was really hard for me, but she was kind of like, just start with one word, and if you can do one word, you can do two, and if you can do two, you can do a sentence, and if you can do a sentence, you can do a paragraph.
Paragraph turns into a page and next thing you know, I had the whole speech memorized and I started to become the kid to beat, I started taking home trophies, um, for speech competitions and I feel like every child, every person needs just that one thing, and it doesn't matter what it is, but that one thing where they can gain confidence through self efficacy, where they're putting effort in and the skill is just building, even in a slow way.
And that's what she did. And I started thinking, you know, where else can I apply this? Um, and my mom, the school system didn't want to identify me as having learning differences. Um, but my mom went up against the school board alone and fought for them to take a look at my case. She put an entire file of everything that anyone had ever said about me, all reports, everything she put together.
And, um, and they identified me as having learning differences and ADHD. And I got some special accommodations little extra time and space and my grades went from C and D's to straight A's and basically stayed as straight A's through and that was a huge turning point for me so my mom has been a huge influence and and then the third I'll just mention briefly is is in my mentors essentially that in my career who have I've really, um, have really, uh, helped me to find the processes that, you know, can, can work to, to move, you know, to translate.
And then of course, you know, my family as well, my, my wife, um, you know, God bless her. I mean, I have ADHD and I'm all over the place and it's really difficult to, I think, to be with someone who has ADHD, but she's been a real supporter of me and, and, um, created the space. Um, for me to be able to, you know, that's conducive for me to, uh, to do what I do.
Yeah.
[00:33:33] LT: Jeff, that's so deep. I love the, I love the throughput of all that. Um, I think that's, that's a mic drop, uh, to the next question, DC, you want to hit the next question?
[00:33:44] DC: Larry, I'm almost embarrassed to ask, uh, Jeff this question, but I think he's going to have a, uh, a fantastic answer. I do too. And he's already
[00:33:56] LT: Pressure's on.
[00:33:57] DC: Yeah, he's already started to touch on this, the pressure is on. When you've got more than a hundred patents, you got a lot of wins. This question has nothing to do with any of those wins. Absolutely none of them. This one is designed to have you, Jeff, peer into your experience and identify the single biggest F up you have had.
The single biggest one. And once you've identified that and shared that with the Brand Nerds, please share also what you learned from it.
[00:34:36] Jeff Karp: Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, I mean, the challenge is, is how to pick one. Um, you know, because there's so many and, and, and, and not just so many, but so many that have imprinted in so many positive ways.
Uh, it certainly didn't feel like that at the time, but, you know, kind of in retrospect, I think, um, it, it, um, In in retrospect, it's almost like every failure. Every setback is the source of some form of innovation. Uh, and for me, if I can just kind of briefly mention a few because I think collectively you kind of get the sense of how these kind of shaped me and sort of, um, the process.
One is, um, I was invited to do a Ted Med talk at the Kennedy Center in D. C. Um, back a number of years ago. And initially I said no, because I was afraid. But then I went back and said, No, I really have to do this. And I sort of stepped through that fear. And I prepared so well for it. And I knew it like, you know, could backwards forward, I knew it inside and out.
And I got to the stage, and I started delivering it. And I was so nervous. I'd eaten like half a pack of halls before I'd gone up there. Um, and they made me even more nervous by saying that the slider, the slide changer doesn't go backwards. So if you make a mistake and go forward two slides, you have to yell the, the AV person, you know, go, can you go back a slide, which I'm like, there's no way they also made us feel a little bit.
Um, uh, I don't know how to say it, but they basically said, if you, if you stop in the middle of your talk, don't cry and don't run off the stage. They said that doesn't work well. Oh, oh, just stand there and smile. And so halfway through my talk, I, I realized I forgot a line and I was able, I was still going, but in my mind I was thinking I forgot a line and I couldn't unhook from that.
And I stopped. And the president of my institution was in the audience. This was five high definition cameras live streamed around the world, you know, Kennedy Center in D. C. And I actually stopped for 20 seconds,
[00:36:49] DC: 20 seconds,
[00:36:49] Jeff Karp: 20 seconds. And I said silence and silence. Yeah, I didn't say anything. And they had said, if that happens, just smile.
And so I was standing there and I was trying to smile. As all these swear words are going through my head, and I wasn't sure what to do and I'm just like, and you can actually I posted the video actually of that it's on you can check it out online of the pause. And at the last second I got this idea to advance the slide and I advanced the slide it was a blank slide, and I was like, what, I didn't realize I had put it in there as a queue, and I advanced it again and then I saw an image.
But then that connected me to the words that went with that next image, which then allowed me to realize that the blank slide was a cue. I was supposed to say something that at that slide, I knew what I was supposed to say, so I just started saying it again and I continued and I was actually able to finish the talk.
And as I was walking off the stage, the stage manager came up to me and whispered in my ear, she said. We can edit that part out for the YouTube version.
And that's what they did. And you can't, you can't, you can't tell when you see the YouTube version that I stopped for 20 seconds. Um, but I, I actually screenshotted it when they, when they sort of shared the whole thing with us and I had posted it just that 20 second pause online. And it was an extraordinarily traumatic experience for me, but at the same time, there was this silver lining that I was able to focus my attention on, which was the fact that I was able to recover.
[00:38:31] DC: Yeah.
[00:38:32] Jeff Karp: Previously in my life, I'd been shamed, um, during my PhD. Um, at some point I was giving a talk and I was shamed for, um, some answer that I had given, and it actually had imprinted and created, um, some trauma for me. So every talk I'd given after then, I'd had hesitation and anxiety, um, and wasn't really able to bring my full self into it.
Um, but this experience allowed me to release that and, and, and actually have this confidence that if I ever stopped in the middle of delivering a talk, that I would be able to, to continue that I would be able to with time, find my words. And that gave me this confidence. And so this spectacular failure, um, or setback, um, is what actually allowed me to release from this trauma that I had experienced and, and allowed me to gain more confidence in my ability to communicate science and, and to other people.
And then just to quickly mention when I started my faculty position, um, about, I submitted about a hundred grants in the first two and a half years, and almost all of them were rejected, um, 90. 596 of them were rejected. Um, and what I, because people, people told me that they said, you should just focus on, um, doing what you did before, but just, just sort of the next thing.
And I wanted to do completely new things. I want to do that never done before. That's what I was most excited about and curious about. And I got destroyed for it. And one point my I came home was coming home every week with grant rejections. And my wife said, Are you sure this is the right career for you?
[00:40:10] DC: And a legitimate question.
[00:40:12] Jeff Karp: A legitimate question. And, um, you know, I sometimes question my motivation, because I think it's multi layered, multi dimensional, it's never one thing. Um, and, you know, part of it I think is, is trying to prove myself from all the people who told me that I couldn't do it, you know, when I was younger, um, you know, in addition to, to helping and, you know, the all sorts of sort of elements of that.
Um, but what happened was I realized that with the grants, I was actually getting feedback. Um, and I was being, um, my gut reaction, my reactive ego sort of reaction was to be very dismissive about the feedback. Um, but what I realized is that with each failure, each setback, there was this emotional rhythm that I would notice, which is immediately I would be in this very negative space, very visceral negative space whenever I got a rejection.
But after a good night's sleep or two, that would actually go in half and then another half. And so emotion would pendulum, you know, this, this sort of negativity would start to come back. And at that moment, it was an after the rain moment, every single time where there's an opportunity to see things from fresh perspectives and new insights and think, focus your attention in ways you weren't able to before.
And that's where I believe the greatest where all the patents have actually come from in my lab. It's not the original ideas that we've had. It's actually the ideas led to a failure or a setback. And because we've been able to not let the emotional side define us. And, and, and, and sort of, sort of end our crusade towards innovation, but we've allowed to sort of embrace that.
And as it passes, we then look up and start to gain the insights. And often one of the ways we do that is we, we look for a new source of energy to bring into the projects and a person we haven't worked with before who has a different expertise, a complimentary expertise that can infuse fresh energy.
Into a project and help us see things in different ways. And that immediately instills new fire, um, into whatever we're doing. And we can quickly turn failure and setback and visceral negative experiences into excitement.
[00:42:34] DC: Wow, loving this. Jeff, I'm gonna make this comment. And then I'm going to transition over to to Larry.
But, um, Brand Nerds. Um, there was a lot packed in that answer from Jeff. I just wanna draw you to one thing, and that is you're on a stage, you're doing a TED talk. There are lots of people out there watching. Sometimes it might even be your boss or, or your boss's boss's boss watching you, and you could be doing something else, not at a TED Talk, but you freeze.
You freeze. And in that moment, and for, and for Jeff, it was 20 seconds, 20 seconds. That's a long time, Brand Nerds. It's a long time to freeze. When you freeze, whether it's for two seconds, 20 seconds or longer, this is the moment of truth. This is the moment of truth because it's not the freezing. It's what happens after the freezing.
And so there's a book. It's one of my favorites. It's by Ben Horowitz, also a big time, uh, hip hop dude from Andreessen Horowitz, the venture capitalist firm. He has a book called The Hard Thing About Hard Things. And in it, Larry, you know, this, he talks about hiring and, and I'm going to give you a synopsis here, a, a Twitter version.
He says, I'm not interested in hiring people, CEOs or founders and bringing them in, investing in those folks. Who have a really great resume and they are really smart and they can answer all these questions I wanna know what happens when you got two weeks of cash left. You're not gonna be able to make payroll and you might be outta business.
What do you do then? What do you do then? Yep. That's the freeze moment Brand Nerds that, uh, that Jeff was talking about. What do you do then? And what Jeff just gave you all was a gift of what's possible after the freeze. Larry? Next question, brother.
[00:44:35] LT: Yes. Okay, Jeff. Um, this is awesome stuff. So next question regarding technology and marketing.
When you think of the two sort of together, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech or areas they should be leery or simply avoid? And with your background and your perspective, which is so different than ours, Really looking forward to hearing what you have to say here.
[00:45:01] Jeff Karp: Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, speaking of technology, I think, um, truly our greatest technology as humans. Um, is questions. Um, and I think that questions in my own life. Um, have it's sort of comes down to the questions that I asked or the questions that I didn't ask, um, which define, um, whether I can get on the right path towards innovation and really bringing value to society or whether, um, that value needs to, to to, uh, to incubate more and take more time.
Um, and, and I think that, uh, actually in, in the book, um, Lit Life Ignition Tools. Um, there's a section that, uh, just a really short paragraph that I would love to, to just read about questions, um, that I think just sort of captures how. By seeing questions as technology, we can, you know, regardless of what career you're in, you know, in branding, marketing, um, uh, you know, that the topic of this conversation, it can really open things up and shed new light, new ways to maximize, um, value creation.
And so in, in the book, and I'm just going to, I'm just going to read this short paragraph.
[00:46:20] LT: Jeff, we love this. This is great.
[00:46:21] Jeff Karp: Cool. I say, um, "Questions are like excavation equipment. Versatile tools for action. Questions can cut like a backhoe through old assumptions or like an archaeologist's trowel and brush that uncover buried artifacts or gems.
Or like the sculptor's chisel that releases a masterpiece from a slab of marble. Or think of the Swiss army knife, the everything tool. A sharp question can pry the lid open on a conversation. Cut to the core of a matter, tighten the screws of a loose concept. You can use a question to accelerate a conversation or slow it down, to allow time for reflection.
I like to think of questions in the larger sense as fire starters. Lowering activation energy and generating the spark for dialogue, exploration, critical and creative thinking and curiosity. The point is to underscore this aspect of question as tools, questions as tools for action, much as we think of other tools as having power and purpose."
And I think, to me, there's a lot, there's a lot in there. And, um, just to, to, to, to shed just one element of light on that, is when I got to the University of Toronto, um, you know, I, I basically, what, even if I go back to when I was seven years old, I learned very quickly that I don't learn from the way that people teach me.
I learn by asking questions. Anytime I asked a question, I could hyper focus on the answer for a few moments, and it would imprint in my mind and connect to other things that I know, and I could recall it later. Questions were just I realized are so powerful, um, just a way to access information to, um, to dig deeper and, you know, to connect with people, actually.
And when I got to University of Toronto, I thought I was really good at asking questions because I spent my whole life asking questions. Um, but I was about to learn a whole new level of question asking. And I started going to these seminars and I would sit there and dozing in and out, you know, invited speakers, scientists speaking about all kinds of things.
And I get to get to the end. And it was the question and answer period. And people ask the most amazing questions that, and I just sat there and I was blown away. But I also started to shame myself. Why am I not thinking of these questions?
And what I did was, because, you know, as I mentioned before, when I'm not good at something or there's something I want, but I don't have it, I think, okay, there's a process that works for me, I and I need to find it.
And so I went into self reflection. And I started to realize that my sort of focus on pattern recognition needed to be put into play here. So what I did was the next seminar I went to, everyone was focused on what the speaker was saying, but I was focused on something different. I was focused on what the questions that people were asking, and I wrote them all down.
And I went to the next seminar and I wrote them all down. And I went to the next seminar and I wrote them all down. And after months, I started looking at the questions that people had been asking this library of questions. And I spent some days kind of going through and all of a sudden had a light bulb moment.
All of these questions could be grouped into four or five different categories. I was able to decode the rationale behind why people were asking these questions. The questions on their own didn't connect with me, but when I discovered the rationale, the why behind asking these questions, Right? Which were anything from, is the work you're doing important?
Was the experiment flawed that you set up? Did you use the right statistics? Like, you know, there are all these, these categories that, that all of the questions could go under. And it was only five or four, you know, four or five things. Um, and once that, that I realized that, those questions became my questions.
They came to me automatically. And I have used this in other settings as well. And I think, you know, in the branding marketing world and kind of every world, you know, what you can do is you can listen for to the questions that other people ask, actually focus your attention on it and write them down and start to think about what's the rationale behind why they're asking these questions.
I think we tend to have intuition around what's a good question, but we might not understand why that question's being asked. And when you start to uncover the lie behind it, that somehow unlocks and can imprint into your mind. And then those questions can help you innovate in any area.
[00:50:55] LT: Um, I'm loving this.
This is, this is so deep and it goes to your consciousness of before to be conscious. That's what I'm seeing, Jeff, about you being conscious. About all that's around you and to even analyze the questions of the Q and A makes complete sense and you're right. It applies to everything. It's really cool. Do you want to take the next question?
The last of the five? I do.
[00:51:19] DC: Doc, what are you most proud of?
[00:51:25] Jeff Karp: Wow. Um, I would say, um, you know, a couple things jump, jump to mind. One is, um, this, this book Lit Life Ignition Tools that I spent seven years writing. And, um, you know, someone who, um, is, you know, open about neurodiversity now. And in fact, I wasn't, you know, I really didn't talk about it with anybody, my ADHD or learning differences.
Um, and, uh, and when the book came out, I, you know, that it's a core theme. There's, there's other, other themes in there as well.
[00:51:56] LT: Yep. Sorry to interrupt you. One quick thing. So before the, prior to the book, you hadn't talked about it. That's what you're saying.
[00:52:02] Jeff Karp: I hadn't. No, no. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't speak about it.
with anybody. Um, and so there was this sort of, you know, coming out, if you will, of, of, of, um, and, and that it took, took, you know, I had to sort of build the courage and, and find, find the way to do that because it, it didn't really come naturally to me. Um, and, um, and, and I actually, what I did was I, I, um, found a couple of media trainers and I worked with them to, to learn how to communicate, um, because, you know, You know, it may seem when I speak that I'm a natural communicator, but I'm really not.
And, and every, every, everything you see has been, there's been processes that I've engaged and worked at to be able to, to, to, to do. Um, and, and so, um, so I would say going, you know, from when the book came out and I started to go. Around and do these book launches. Um, um, Children who are neuro diverse started coming to, um, and parents of neuro diverse kids starting started coming to, um, these book launches.
And these these teenagers in particular would come up to the microphone and ask me questions and they would share, they'd be very vulnerable and they'd share their struggles with me and and and I was was able to share my experiences and and and processes. And to me, I'm just really proud of that, that I was able to kind of, you know, do the work and evolve and, and get to a place where I was able to, to, to be vulnerable on a stage and share and, and attract others who are willing to be vulnerable. Um, so, so that to me, it was really, um, that's something that I'm really proud, proud of. And I think, you know, some of the other things are, um, with some of the technologies that we developed in my laboratory that have had impact on patients, um, and, um, you know, kind of far and wide.
So, so hearing, hearing those stories, It's Um, has has really been, um, rewarding. And then I think also the people that I work with and have where I've, you know, been able to sort of touch their lives in certain ways that have helped them to spread their wings and be able to have more self confidence and efficacy and be able to contribute, um, value to society and in more significant ways.
So I'm very, you know, proud of that, too.
[00:54:37] DC: Wow. Wow, Jeff.
[00:54:42] LT: That's, uh, there's nothing to add for me, D. Me either. Me either. All right. Well, this is Jeff. This is fabulous. We, we so appreciate everything that you are sharing with us. Um, so we're going to move to the next section, which is, What's poppin What's poppin D? What's poppin So, Jeff, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply have something happening in and around marketing, business, the world today that we think is good fodder for discussion. What have you got for us, Jeff?
[00:55:14] Jeff Karp: Yeah, absolutely. Um, Well, when I think of, of, of marketing and branding, um, and I think of, you know, in the context, especially of the companies that I've co founded and the products that they've generated, you know, the ones that are, are on the market or soon to be on the market, um, I think of the incredible importance that, that, um, marketing and branding have to truly be part of bringing solutions Um, to society in a very impactful way, um, to, to truly, to truly help, uh, to truly add value.
Um, and I think to me, you know, one of the sides of it that I also do focus a lot of my attention on is, is actually attention itself. And, and this realization that, um, that our attention as humans is valuable because it's limited and, and I have noticed through personal experiences, how branding and marketing can, can capture my attention.
And I think from a very core sort of fundamental, um, aspect of, of a living being our, our attention. Is often there to help us stay healthy and to survive and to, you know, focus on our well being. And I think that, um, that attempt that that marketing and branding, um, has become so smart and so effective and so powerful that it can divert our attention away from focusing on our well being.
And our, um, our health of not just ourselves, but those around us, um, and can can can do it if we're very important and valuable ways, but also for for things that can be very distracting and can actually take us away from caring for our own well being and and health. And I think that this is one of the contributors to why we have these epidemics of obesity, anxiety, loneliness, depression, um, which I think, you know, over half the people in our country have at least one of those in a severe sense, you know, many, many have all four.
And so to me, I think that, um our attention, you know, often in the context and we totally spoke earlier about, um, you know, these authentic experiential, you know, that like, like that, that's like, we're programmed for that to interact with nature and nature is very enriching and is a source of awe and wonder.
And I, I think that, you know, I just, I just throwing it out there that to all the marketers and branders just, just to think about that as. You're developing, um, strategies and, and, and helping to move products into society that, that I think there is this sort of moral ethical consideration of what are you diverting attention away from?
And what could you divert? How, how could you divert attention back towards helping people to take care of themselves? Um, and so that's something that has really been, um, popping for me, uh, lately.
[00:58:55] LT: That's awesome. This is great stuff, man. Really awesome. Jeff, when our shows go like this, they go really fast. So we're going to get into the close right now. I mean, I've got so many learnings, Brand Nerds, but I'm going to try and cull them and I'm going to make them as quick as I can. So, um, I have about eight or nine.
So, number one, consciousness, brand nerds. Consciousness in every moment. Dare I say the foundation to Jeff's success. In life is he's always practicing being conscious in every moment. That's first one. Embrace and lead with curiosity. Third, that's second. Third one. Nature is our greatest teacher. Think about how Jeff is constantly utilizing nature, both with his surgical glue, but just in life overall.
Number four. I love this. Observe other processes that work for other people. And Jeff said, and this is a quote, Try them on. In your most authentic way. 5. Relationships, Brand Nerds. Not networking. Relationships with people in your world. And just like Jeff did, he forged relationships and who knows where it goes.
Jeff's, uh, Jeff's, you know, story about where all the places that relationships went were just incredibly, the flowering that happened. But it's about relationships. Don't think network relationships. 6. Every setback is the source of some sort of innovation. 7. Resilience. Think of Jeff's TED Talk.
Resilience, Brand Nerds. It's about getting up off the floor, right? That's so important. Eight, rejection equals feedback. Strip out emotion, take the feedback, and translate that into helping you move forward. And then my last one is, thoughtful questions are the foundation to your life. Work and ultimately success.
Those are my learnings in the Twitter version. Ooh,
[01:00:57] DC: ooh, ooh, Larry. Ooh, Larry. That's strong, brother. That's strong. There is a cacophony of stuff to take from what Doc has provided here. So many jewels dropped. It is hard, like the sparkles are like blinding me. So many jewels have been, have been dropped by, uh, by, by Jeff Karp, the fly boy. Uh, okay, Jeff, uh, this is the part of the program where I make an attempt.
The attempt that I make is to feel the human before me and share my view based on what I've heard and what I've seen and most importantly what I've felt. What is it that this soul is bringing to the 7. 2 or 3 billion people? On the planet that is uniquely theirs, uniquely theirs. And if they don't do it, no, one's going to do it.
We miss it as humanity. And I'm going to attempt to do that with you now, Jeff, want to go back to something you said early, you talked about your desire. From a business perspective, to commit to a life of translation. Now, you mentioned it in business, like taking business things from your lab and translating them to patients.
But I think you meant it bigger than that. Alright, even though the example that you gave was a business example. When we talked to you about the question of, uh, brand, we've never gotten, like, your favorite brand. When you, the first brand experience that you fell in love with, we never got an answer about oneself.
And you talked about these labels that were given to you as brands when you were a shorty and they weren't all that nice. They weren't that nice about you and your mother rejected these brands. She said, no, no, no, no, son. These are not you. You got some different brands. Don't don't listen to that. And I use that as a setup now to go into what I think are Jeff Carp's unique gifts.
Let's go back to your mother, Susie. You described her as a Crusader. Okay, Crusaders. This is not someone who's like, Oh, come on, son. You know, a cheerleader. I think you could do it. I really believe you could come on, son. No, no, this is someone who's who's ready to go to war for their child. She was ready to go to war.
So I start with the second. Is that your mother said, Hey, with this, uh, with this poem here that I've, that I've written for you, I've crafted for you, that you were just petrified about. Like, Mom, I can't do this. She said, if you can remember one word, you can remember two. This is a number, Jeff. One, two.
Third thing, you talked about your early days in academia. Post work and you're writing grants. You said you wrote a hundred grants. 95 were rejected numbers 95 Rejected out of a hundred and then now you talked about a breakthrough that came for you But before we get to that breakthrough because there's a number there, too I believe what I've heard from you today, Jeff Karp, you are physical and spiritual manifestation of a life and business Rosetta Stone and Swiss Army Knife.
This is you. A physical and spiritual manifestation of a life and business Rosetta Stone, that one uses to translate, and a Swiss Army Hand Knife, which one uses as a tool, which you and yourself mentioned. A Swiss Army Knife. Back to numbers. How you do this, how you do these translations. In life and business as you translate them and guide them through the number seven through the number seven and let me read for you the meaning of the number seven spiritual awakening, divine perfection, mysticism and intuition, balance and harmony.
This is your nature point transformation and sacred geometry. These are the seven things that make up, or six things that make up the meaning of the number seven. Why do I say that your translation is guided by the number seven? And what grade were you when you had your breakthrough?
[01:06:23] Jeff Karp: Second grade.
[01:06:25] DC: Second grade.
I thought you said seventh. I thought, I thought you said seven. All right.
[01:06:28] Jeff Karp: Seventh grade was when, yeah, seventh grade is when I was identified. But actually in the second grade, I was asked a question by a tutor that let me open up to thinking about thinking. That's okay.
[01:06:39] DC: Okay. Got it. So seventh grade was when you were identified.
Yes. Yeah.
[01:06:42] Jeff Karp: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:06:44] DC: That was, that's why, that's why I think the number seven has something. That was spiritual
[01:06:49] Jeff Karp: about you. That was huge. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Wow. That's you brother. Never, never thought of it that way.
[01:06:57] LT: DC has a way of doing this. Just
[01:07:01] Jeff Karp: guess what? When I was in the second grade, I was seven years old.
[01:07:04] LT: There you go.
[01:07:08] Jeff Karp: There you go. There you go. Whoop. There it is.
[01:07:16] DC: That's what I got for you, brother.
[01:07:17] Jeff Karp: Wow. Thank you. That's beautiful. Both. Thank you. Thank you so much,
[01:07:22] LT: Jeff. We're about to hit the close. Is there anything that you want to share with us that you learned from our conversation that we've had with you today that you'd like to share?
[01:07:36] Jeff Karp: Well, I think it's, it's really just reflection and, um, awareness, uh, that. Um, that there's so many beautiful people, uh, that are here, you know, we're here together at the same time and place. And, uh, and, and that we, we really are connected in ways that we don't always feel, that we don't always experience.
And through conversation like what we've just been having, um, we really, um, can, can, and through listening, um, we can not only connect, but we can deepen those connections. And I think that to me, this podcast is real data that is really showing, you know, we, we barely, we, we met on a plane, you know, and, uh, for a very short, we didn't even speak for the whole part.
It was only a small part of it. And I think that to me, this conversation really, um, you know, it's, it's the data that shows and show, you know, it shows the evolution of a connection, right. Um, between three people here. And to me, that's just really powerful. And I think it's a huge statement of what's possible.
Um, if we take the time to, to engage in, in conversation and lead with curiosity. And, uh, and, and, and really focus on, on listening, um, because it's clear to me that your summaries are, are a direct sort of, um, impact of, of the listening that you have been doing. Uh, and so that also I feel it right. And, and, and, and so, um, to me, that's just really beautiful.